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Episode 18 - Louisbourg 1757, or the epic encounter that never was
140 Plays8 days ago
Lord Loudon prepares the full might of the British war effort - both army and navy - to strike a crushing blow against New France's premier military installation. A mighty French fleet arrives on the scene in time. The stage is set for an epic confrontation unrivalled yet in the war. And then it all collapses. Learn what happened in today's episode!
Intro & outro music - "Drums and Guns" by Village Volunteers Drum & Fife Corps
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Transcript
Introduction and Context
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to Tales from the French and Indian War. i am your host, Jackson. And I am your co-host, Matt. And we are back with another episode of everyone's favorite podcast.
00:00:24
Speaker
Recently, we had been in discussing the Battle of Fort William Henry, where the full might of French military power and their native allies came crushing down upon the British fort at the south end of Lake George.
00:00:41
Speaker
Most of the defenders there were militiamen from the colonies, but Matt was Where was the the official British military this whole time? Why was ah the New York frontier so weakly defended against all these thousands of French and Indian troops?
00:00:57
Speaker
Oh, funny you should ask, Jackson. They were all in Halifax. in Halifax? Yeah, why were they in Halifax? That is what we will get into in this episode.
Louisburg's Strategic Importance
00:01:09
Speaker
So I know last time, at the end of our last episode, we we said we were going to talk about Louisburg in this podcast. um I want to be clear, we're talking about 1757 Louisburg, not 1758 Louisburg, are obviously the same place it happens at the same fort and um i just wanted caution our listeners when they're listening to this that we were talking about the 1757 yes i will make sure to title it appropriately i guess were we're doing a similar thing here to as we did about fort william henry where we had the quote unquote siege and then the actual siege two separate episodes on two different events in the same place ah so we're going to be doing something very similar here today yes yes And not to spoil anything, but there will be no kill counts or tolls or anything this episode. This is, we're going to be diving more into the planning and the background of British strategy at the time and
00:02:05
Speaker
I think offer a little bit more background as to what Jackson mentioned previously as to why Fort William Henry was so lightly defended at the time and allowed Montcalm to take it pretty, pretty easily. um So, all right. Yeah, let's get into it. So this occurred in, in 1757. So obviously the same year as Fort William Henry. before the battle of Fort William Henry. So we're going a little bit back in time here. So we, we talked about him a bit in the past, but the key actor here is Lord Loudon on the British side. His real name was John Campbell. was a fourth Earl of Loudon. So if you remember us talking about him before he had replaced William Shirley in July of 1756 as the commander in chief of the British forces in North America. So he's in charge. Um,
00:02:53
Speaker
I would say that John Campbell slash Lord Loudoun, which we will call him Lord Loudoun from now on, him and the British government, particularly William Pitt in London, had very different plans on what an offensive in North America should look like. And I wouldn't say that they were like very different and, you know, Loudon thought they should attack in the South and thought they should attack in the North or something like that. They both had the key objective in mind, which was eventually knocking out Quebec and taking out, you know,
00:03:28
Speaker
or I would say to, so to speak, cutting off the head of the snake of the French. sure Yep. ah Capital, their main, where the government is, where their, their fortress, their main fortress in new France. So yeah, that's, that's the prime target. They eventually everyone, every British a soldier eventually wants to get to at some point.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yes, and it was to the point now where Britain had suffered defeat after defeat after defeat. Very few victories in there, and I'm sure as you've listened to this podcast, Jackson and I have talked about very few British victories over the course of the last year. Also, I would like to i would like to point out, I think it's been...
00:04:04
Speaker
just over a year now that we've been doing this podcast so yay um anyway back on point so you know the the british saw the situation kind of dire especially lord loudon and um as i mentioned before he wanted to go right to the heart of french canada knock out quebec as fast as possible the main issue with that is that the saint lawrence river uh which we've discussed before it is the main waterway from the Atlantic Ocean into Quebec. So unless you're going to do an overland route, which the British had not had success doing overland attacks so far, if you think of like Braddock's expedition and those types of like disastrous events that that Britain had encountered, an overland route to Quebec, one would be insanely impossible to do just because of the terrain. And you are crossing the Great Lakes region, which had been you know, not largely unexplored, but not very well inhabited at the time. So you're crossing a lot of dense country that would have to be cut down and yeah it would just be a very long expedition when it works. So Loudoun was in favor of a naval attack.
The Nature of Louisburg Fortress
00:05:12
Speaker
The issue with the naval attack is right at the mouth of the St. Lawrence River sat what they called back then ah the Gibraltar of the North. We call now ah Louisburg or, you know, the Fort Louisburg, I guess you could say. i didn't know it had that nickname. That's interesting. Yeah, it was called Gibraltar the North because Gibraltar... um the fort of gibraltar was considered in ah like an elegant impregnable fortress at the time so it was like extremely high honors to be given that name and i believe the designer of the fort um and i can't remember his name didn't put in my notes but the french designer of louisburg also designed uh gibraltar the fort oh really Yeah, so that's why i think I in don't quote me on that. I am pretty sure that's true. If it's not listeners, I apologize. But um yeah, so it had it had the nickname Gibraltar of the North, which was interesting. It was a massive, massive fortress.
00:06:13
Speaker
it's It's probably the most well-equipped bastion in North America at the time. And Matt, a question for you, because I was going to save most of my like Louisburg Fortress-specific research for when we cover the actual battle next year. sure But ah I do remember reading like the Fortress. it was It's very...
00:06:35
Speaker
it's kind of a very spread out, like a very broad, it's not like a very tight knit, uh, fortress, but it's very like spread out along like, like a ah Bay area or something like that. Does that sound right from what you researched? Yeah, that's right. And the way the fortress was built was it had like several different gullies, I guess, that were you'd have all these like different ports or areas where enemy ships or land units could enter, but then they could be fired down upon and several different firing angles. So and it's funny, like we talk about like a town of Louisburg. There wasn't really a town in
00:07:12
Speaker
of Louisburg at the time, it was mostly just a fort. So I think you're right, Jackson, in that you know it was so spread out that it almost acted like its own town. um But I was actually reading that like so the French soldiers that were garrisoned at Fort Louisburg hated it Because there was like, there was nothing around them. Like there wasn't a, you know, if you were in Quebec, you know, there was a city there. You had merchants and stuff. There wasn't like, if you were in Louisbourg, you were on like the desolate parts of the French empire. So, or I guess yeah New France at the time. So yeah, it's a, it is very sprawled out across the port, but it is like, it is massive and it probably, know,
00:07:57
Speaker
If well well, we'll get to it eventually in 1758. But I would say that the plan that Loudon has, or I guess the British have in this episode would not probably have succeeded if it got there, but we'll get to that. yeah And I just want to note, to underline the importance of Louisbourg to New France, in the board game that we talked about in our game episode, Struggle for New France, one of the victory conditions for the British is they must possess Louisbourg along with Quebec City and Montreal. So its strategic importance in real life is it' to the point where it's even reflected in games that are designed on the period, which is a fun one.
00:08:41
Speaker
That is a, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. If we think of it as like a choke point that you'd want to really beef up that that's what Louisburg is. So, and also right before I give it back to you, Matt, not only was Louisburg a very important defensive installation for new France, you know, protecting that vital St. Lawrence riverway, as Matt mentioned, but it's also an offensive base as well. You know, it's not far at all from Nova Scotia. So if,
00:09:09
Speaker
Louis board continues and it continues to serve as a safe harbor for French ships. That means it's a very short distance where they can raid privateer and harass British settlements along the Atlantic coast. So both a ah defensive and offensive installation here.
00:09:27
Speaker
Yes, it was the closest North American port for the French to mainland France.
British Strategic Dilemmas and Delays
00:09:33
Speaker
france So easiest to get to fastest the fastest commute, so to speak, to to the port. um But actually, this brings me into ah into an interesting find. So...
00:09:45
Speaker
Right when Loudon took over ah for Shirley in 1756, he immediately had his sights set on Quebec as the main target, as we talked about. You know, that was the head of the snake. I found an excerpt, a short excerpt from a letter that he had wrote ah to the Duke of Cumberland in 1756. It was the same year that he took over. This is just part of letter, but he says that Quebec is the point we should push for by the River St. Lawrence. I need not explain to you the consequences which would arise from our success there, but I really see no other point we are so likely to succeed in as in that, which is in the main point for wherever we make our point, we must fight the whole force of Canada before we arrive at it.
00:10:29
Speaker
as their power over these people can bring the whole world to whatever place they are wanted. There, if we have a proper fleet and that comes in time, we can arrive with our whole force at once. If we can land and establish ourselves, we have nothing but the siege to make. If we succeed in that, I imagine the business is done for their, for their, we shall, I do suppose, meet all their regular forces, which so far as I have yet learned is six battalions from Europe besides the Marine and their people of the country with their Indians, which are very numerous.
00:11:01
Speaker
So he's basically saying like, we can fight our way to Quebec, but we'll be fighting tooth and nail over every inch and ground, or we could just park on their doorstep with the fleet. And then all we have to do is siege and that's it basically. Right. yes exactly so yeah i think his plan made sense had louis bird not existed um if there wasn't a bash in there it would have made sense so anyway uh he ah he eventually sends this plan back to london for approval uh william pitt uh who well i guess i we'll talk about later episodes he's a very important character and his uh
00:11:38
Speaker
the the next expedition we talk about will have more of his hands in it. He was very against this. He he saw Quebec as a main target, but he was like, no, you absolutely have to take Louisburg first. If you don't take Louisburg, you're risking the entire operation because you could be attacked from the rear. If France found out, you know they could sail up the St. Lawrence behind you.
00:12:00
Speaker
What was interesting is a lot of sources you'll read about this will just say like, No, like Pitt just disagreed with Loudon. He you know sent contrary orders to what Loudon wanted. I found a ah primary source and I couldn't like find it like verbatim, but...
00:12:16
Speaker
I guess there was a cabinet meeting in London about Pitt's plan or not Pitt's plan about London's plan. um And Pitt had presented to the cabinet, you know, his plan to take Louisburg first. And it went back to Loudon, not as a directive to take Louisburg, but as a choice. He actually had a choice whether he wanted to go Quebec or he wanted to go to Louisburg first. Um,
00:12:44
Speaker
And obviously you think, OK, well, if he had a choice, Loudoun would want to go take Quebec. Well, the reason he didn't in this time period, and I don't know when this happened. jackson We kind of talked about this previously. um There were some French spies and and they were prevalent in London that had caught wind of the fact that, hey the British might be targeting Quebec. So they sent, um, very, a very large fleet from France to,
00:13:17
Speaker
Louisburg and just sat this fleet in its port to protect Quebec against any British attack. And they ah they arrived before the British fleet that Loudon was assembling got there because the preparations were taking so long. And I think I had read like the orders he had got from Pitt, like since he was changing his plan that like delayed the attack even later.
00:13:40
Speaker
ah Yes. I mean, this is like September, August of 1757, late in the season. And the the British still haven't made their main attack of the of the entire year yet.
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah. and I mean, we're talking from the time that Loudon wrote back to England, his plan of attacking uh came back to then him launching his attack on louisberg that was a full year in between those so it was from like the fall of 1756 to then you know they didn't sail on louisberg until the fall of 1757 so there were a ton of delays the the order from pitt came in the spring of well i guess not really the order from pitt as i said it was the directive that he could choose and loud and you know, was like, well, let's go to Halifax and, you know, group up there and decide. That took him three months from the spring until, I believe, August. And then in August, when they were at Halifax, they saw this massive fleet sitting in the in the bay of of Louisburg. And they're like, well, that's not going to be, like, we can't we can't bypass that and go straight to Quebec. So plans change. We're going to to Louisburg. So... Yeah, you're right. It took ah a very long time. And there's a lot of reasons for that. you know Logistics. To get into numbers, I believe Loudon had, i think, 12,000 men him.
00:15:05
Speaker
with him for reference, the French at their peak at around the same time had about 7,000 soldiers, including Indians, I believe, at the Battle of Fort William Henry. So that's 5,000 more gathered for this amphibious assault.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's a massive ah massive force. And then also the ah the fleet that accompanied the British was pretty large as well. It had 15 ships of the line, 250 gunships, 16 cruisers, and then like numerous transports. There's not an exact number of transports, but to you know transport 12,000 men, you're talking about probably...
00:15:44
Speaker
ah you know, a few hundred, but no yeah. um The, the idea of hitting Louisburg is certainly a like as we discussed a good idea, but this huge delay that you've just discussed is just killed it because even the French realized like if Louisburg is under siege, the only help for it will just come from France because overland, you know, the French over in Quebec,
00:16:12
Speaker
As we've talked about, it's a long march through wilderness to get over to Louisbourg and the British have at least nominal control as we discussed last episode over Acadia. So the land route straight to Louisbourg has been cut off and the Navy of new France is not particularly strong and cannot compete against the kind of fleets written.
00:16:33
Speaker
ah The British colonies can field. So the only help for Louisbourg, if it's attacked, is from France. Luckily for them this time, they got wind early. They acted very quickly and their fleet got launched earlier than the British. So yeah, when the the British finally get there after months, there are quite a few ships of the line and frigates on the French flag sitting in the harbor waiting for them.
00:16:59
Speaker
That is correct. Yes. Yeah, it kind of shows the importance of counterintelligence. at this time. oh yeah okay Well, counterintelligence and intelligence is generally, yeah. um You know,
French Counteractions and British Setbacks
00:17:10
Speaker
having having a forewarning of these attacks when they do take so long to come about and so long to be put together makes a huge difference. um And... Oh, sorry.
00:17:21
Speaker
Oh, yeah. i just going to say ah also that that not only defends Louis Borg, but that knowledge enables New France to go on the offensive as well. it was because it was when...
00:17:34
Speaker
So let me back up a little bit. So Montcalm and his forces, they're kind of stuck for a large portion of the year being close to the St. Lawrence River, because if the British do come up in a big um armada like they're fearing right outside of Quebec, they need to be able to quickly mobilize and get there.
00:17:50
Speaker
So they can't really march out in force against the British colonies because they need to keep you know soldiers back in case the heartland of New France is attacked. But once they find out, okay, it's confirmed, we've getting we're getting enough information that we know the British are targeting Louisbourg, that frees up Montcalm and Lévis and all the other, and Bougainville and their soldiers.
00:18:12
Speaker
along with all the the over 1,000, 1,800 Indians to go strike Fort William Henry. So it's kind of like a chess game developing here between the French and the British. They're each like developing their positions, then starting to build some potential attacks, but no one wants to trigger it you know in 1757.
00:18:31
Speaker
And then once a fatal move has been made, you know the British preparing this long and slow and cumbersome attack, The French strike, they take that moment to strike and ends up being a very effective timing on their part.
00:18:45
Speaker
But yeah, a lot of factors coming together here that influence the pivotal events of September and August 1757. Yes. yes Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, there's a, it's like, you're right, was a chain of dominoes that fall, all not in Britain's favor. And this was a great time for them to have struck.
00:19:05
Speaker
You know, they they were able to assemble a massive force in a massive fleet at the time, and they could deal a crushing blow. But, you know, information leak kind of nipped that in the bud.
00:19:16
Speaker
But... um So anyway, just to get into some more numbers. So the fleet that France sends to Louisbourg is massive. So it's under the command of N. Jackson. You'll have to correct my broken French, but it's Admiral Dubois de la Motte.
00:19:33
Speaker
Is that right? Yeah. So de la Motte, he, an interesting note about him. He was the admiral of the reinforcement fleet in 1755 when the British attacked two of his ships and took it before a declaration. of war. Take a drink. ah He was the overall admiral of that fleet, and so he's back in the new world now with plenty of guns to defend and fight the British if necessary.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, so they sent 18 ships of the line and several frigates. And for comparison, the British had 15 ships of the line. And the British had more smaller ships, but 18 plus the frigates. It was like it it equated about equal. on And it's pretty rare for for France at this time to have more or stronger naval forces at the same time when the British fleet is there. So this is, yeah.
00:20:25
Speaker
This is clutch reinforcement by the French in time here. Yes. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about ships like the Tanat that had 80 guns, the formidable with 80 guns. I mean, these are massive, massive ships um that they sent. So, yeah, it's it's so, you know, we're building up to this whole thing of like, oh, France sent 18 ships in line. Epic engagement is about to take place. The largest naval battle in the Americas. this is A huge amphibious assault.
00:20:53
Speaker
yeah and probably for um probably for britain's benefit it didn't happen and we'll talk about why so um in 1757 the fall they set sail for louisburg from halifax um into September of 1757. So I should back up a bit. So they're sailing to Louisburg. They see this massive fleet sitting in the Louisburg Harbor. ah So when they see that, the the British fleet sort of like
00:21:26
Speaker
they don't drop anchor, but they pause. they They pause the expedition in the water, but to figure out what they, what exactly they're going to do. Some ideas that like Loudoun throughout was like, you know, conducting an amphibious landing on a different area around the fort and then doing a primary like land attack to try to keep the French Navy out of it. And there was some other ideas thrown around, like, to you know, obviously attack the fleet first and then go after the fort.
00:21:56
Speaker
But while all this was happening, Mother Nature took a turn for the worse. ah So when they're sitting in the harbor in 1757, a strong gale, which are we would say like something like a tropical storm brews up in in the harbor around Louisburg.
00:22:15
Speaker
And the British fleet was completely scattered in the water. a few of the vessels had some heavy damage. The HMS Tilbury was wrecked in the water. I think they lost one sloop, which was the ferret. um But most most of the ships survived. The French fleet never left the harbor. And we'll talk about why in a second. But yes yeah, the French fleet never left the water or never left the harbor. ah So the British fleet, since they were scattered, some ships were damaged. They just immediately you know turned around and returned to Halifax or some of them even sailed on to England. yeah.
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah, that was that's the end of the expedition. so yeah You can kind of sum it up with the Shakespeare line, much ado about nothing. Yes. Yeah, it's crazy. I just can't even imagine how um how much money was spent supporting that campaign. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we talked in the Fort William Henry episode about how some of the French officers were going to grumbling about Rigaud's attack in March against Fort William Henry and how he brought like 1,200 men. They didn't even like fully attack the fort. They just burned stuff around it and harassed them. That might have been an inefficient use of resources, but gathering 12,000 men...
00:23:29
Speaker
foregoing any other offensive action on the entire front and then gathering a huge fleet all for it to just be, you know, a naval blockade for a month or two. And then everyone scatters and goes home like that. I can't imagine the amount of money like in today's dollars, like what the equivalent would be because that is devastating.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah. And you know what happens when you do something like that. you get fired. So that that expedition resulted in the recall of Loudoun as commander in chief. And then he will be replaced by Major General Jeffrey Amherst, which if you're looking up the wrong Louisburg, you will find a lot about Amherst.
00:24:12
Speaker
but he's not involved yet. So yeah, that got out and fired. And then back to- One positive, one positive for the expedition, even though most of it is negative for the British, like the last few years.
Aftermath and Consequences
00:24:24
Speaker
One positive is as the the British fleet had kind of parked outside Louisbourg, that did disrupt the fortress's economy and heavily reduce its food supplies. So they were like blockading the the port of Louisbourg while the army was gathering.
00:24:40
Speaker
But ah that does at least have the the impact of both cutting off the the flow of goods and money to the fortress and the fleet, I think, can go out and harass French shipping elsewhere in the St. Lawrence Gulf and the Atlantic coast.
00:24:56
Speaker
So that is the only positive for the British is that, ah you know, we will, we've seen how, how low the food supplies are in new France at this time. So that is not a welcome development, but then of course the storm comes, scatters that Louis Borg is reconnected to the French economy.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yes. And if it couldn't get worse for the British, though, outside of that one positive that Jackson noted, it turned out after the fact that most of the French fleet sitting in that harbor was likely inoperable. They were suffering from a typhus outbreak at the time. So most of the fleet or most of the the crewmen were out of action.
00:25:38
Speaker
um And it really begs the question of how much of a resistance could they oppose. But it's the exact reason why they didn't sail out to meet the blockaders. And it's the reason why they didn't pursue them after the the British broke. So ah yeah. it's i had I read something somewhere about how if like the crew is in good operating capacity and they sailed out to hunt down the scattered British fleet, like it could have destroyed the majority of the fleet.
00:26:04
Speaker
But ah yeah, when a third or half of your crew is suffering from typhus, you you can't really just get up and go, go, go. Yeah, and even the loss of like a few ships of the line would have been a huge blow to either Navy. so um It's like more of a posturing thing versus if you actually had to engage that many that many ships, that that would have been disastrous. Yeah. um yeah so i think it's kind of good for both sides that this battle did not occur um but that is that's the big battle of lewyburn 1757 and as jackson noted um you know this left the door open for the attack uh for william henry by montcalm that year so it did have an effect um but itself you know
00:26:53
Speaker
Not a very, not not much to write home about there. Just ah another failed ah failed event for the British. and And we'll see that. I mean, in the next episode, I think when we start, or maybe not in the next episode, I guess Jackson and I will have to talk about episode plans. But when we start getting into...
00:27:14
Speaker
uh pitt's actual planning in north america and uh the more like strategic decision making that the british uh leadership makes it it'll get better but right now it's kind of on a downturn Yeah, the the moment we're stopping at here from the last couple episodes and this one here, it represents the peak of France in the war and the lowest of lows for Britain in the war. So we'll see the gears start to change here very soon. But this is it looks, the picture looks very, very different from how it will in a few years.
00:27:53
Speaker
Yes. um That's all I got. i would i would encourage our listeners that now that we're getting into this era of the war where William Pitt really starts to come into play, there's a great online resource. If you just go on Google and Google...
00:28:11
Speaker
correspondence of william pitt uh you can find in this huge long journal i think it's in the british archives of every letter he wrote around this period um and to who and you know and there's like a whole table of contents that tells you what they're about and everything so i would encourage you to go look at that if you want to hear it directly from ah from the officers and from pitt at the time about what they what they thought so yeah Yeah, it's lovely time to be into history with all the digitized resources. I was looking at a digitized collection of Lévis's letters. He's like the second in command for the French forces in North America.
00:28:50
Speaker
about ah Basically, was how they had they had recognized that Louisbourg was such a key point for their overall defense and connection to France.
00:29:01
Speaker
But on that note, Matt, we will have to do a what if episode near the end of the war, because while I was looking through those letters from Levis, he i found like a letter where he was proposing like possible campaign plans while he was writing in 1757. So I don't know it would have been for that year or 1758. But he was proposing to someone back in the French government about some some possible plans that they could take to like keep up the pressure against England.
00:29:30
Speaker
And I, like my jaw dropped as i was reading it. Some of the wildest, like most interesting, most like history did not end up going this way stuff. And I would love to, ah to take that and a couple other things that we can think about or find. was like, what would it have looked like if this happened or this didn't happen? Because there's some really fun stuff to to read into. That's cool. Yeah. That sounds like a bit good idea. I like that. Oh, I also, i wanted to mention too, i found a letter um from, and I'm not going to read it. It's very long from Admiral Holborn to Pitt after this, after this event. And I would encourage our readers to go,
00:30:12
Speaker
for our listeners to go read it it's um it's pretty funny because uh holborn takes about i don't know four pages explaining what happened and then pitt's response is pretty uh simply like thanks for trying sort of thing um his response was okay yeah it wasn't a very long letter back to admiral howborn so i i would yeah it's pretty funny he just is basically trying to explain why he uh had to turn around a massive fleet of ships that was yeah because he wouldn't do you know if he got fired or demoted or anything or did do you know by chance if holborn stayed on uh
00:30:52
Speaker
No, he was replaced as naval commander when the 1758 campaign was launched. So he did not last much longer. He did not survive. Not really. No, I think he returned to England because a bunch of the ships of the fleet that were scattered, instead of going back to Halifax, they just went very bad to England, which I thought was kind of interesting because how could they have been prepared for that journey? But regardless, he...
00:31:19
Speaker
they sell back to england and then he was relieved of command so everybody here got canned because of this
00:31:28
Speaker
well well there it is yeah all right well uh jackson so what are we talking about our next episode I'm trying to think if we should reveal what I'm planning or if we should just surprise. Now we'll talk about a little bit after this. We'll keep it, uh, keep our listeners in the dark for a little bit.
00:31:47
Speaker
Some yes suspense. Spoiler. It'll be about the French and Indian war. That's a pretty safe bet. I'd say. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for listening. And, uh, we hope you found this interesting. It's probably something that would be skipped over by a lot of, uh,
00:32:04
Speaker
textbooks or history books so i'm glad usually it gets like one or two sentences in the overall summaries of the war but that's where this podcast comes in we can talk ah in detail about those things so yeah we can do whatever we want yeah well yeah thanks uh thanks everyone for listening of course any comments any suggestions for episodes we'd be happy to hear them on facebook or spotify we're checking the comments so thank you all and have a good rest of your day see you