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The soul of the object - Ep 1
411 Plays2 years ago
In this first episode of Tea-break Time Travel, Matilda is joined by Sarah Lord from Potted History to talk about the oldest clay object in the world: The Venus of Dolní Věstonice. Ever wondered how people first started making clay objects? Who made the Venus figurines? Why art has always been a part of human history? Then this is the episode for you!
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Transcript
Introduction to Tea Break Time Travel
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to Tea Break Time Travel, where every month we look at a different archaeological object and take you on a journey into their past.
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to episode one of this Tea Break time travel. I'm your host, Matilda Ziebrecht, and today I am savoring a green peach tea, which I have to say is really, really good, a lot better than I was expecting it to be.
Guest Introduction: Sarah Lord from Potted History
00:00:36
Speaker
Joining me on my tea break today is Sarah Lord from Potted History. Are you also a tea drinker or are you more coffee person? I'm a tea, no coffee, not at all. I'm just drinking very regular British bog standard tea today, nothing too exciting. Milk and sugar?
00:00:52
Speaker
No sugar, but milk. Strong and a bit of milk. Excellent. I actually never used to drink black tea with milk. I was very much with a strong, no, we don't want milk variety. And then for some reason over Christmas, I was in a hotel or something and I had some milk in my tea and I was like, oh, this is really good, actually. I don't like if it's overpowering, but just a little bit of milk. Just perfect.
00:01:13
Speaker
No, no, it's really good. It was mainly because I got into chai teas at some point. I thought they were coffee for some reason. And then someone was like, no, they're teas. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, of course, it's in the name. And of course, they're with milk, which I'm saying. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. So yes, good, good. A fellow tea drinker. Excellent. One of my first conversations I had with someone about this and I said, Oh, but do you drink tea or are you more coffee? So it was like, actually, I don't like hot beverages at all. Oh, right.
00:01:41
Speaker
this conversation is going to end very quickly. So Sarah, so you are from Potted History. For those who are unaware, the business that makes amazing clay replicas, I have several
Sarah's Journey from Teaching to Pottery
00:01:52
Speaker
on my shelf. So originally, are you an archaeologist or historian or a potter? Well, we can't really claim we do say we do experimental archaeology, but we're not neither of us, my dad or I are actually trained as an archaeologist,
00:02:07
Speaker
both would have to say potters, but we're potters with a very, very strong interest in ancient pottery, and we do a lot of research into it. And in fact, we help other people get their PhDs, but neither of us have ever done it. It's overrated, trust me, because someone is doing it at the moment. If you don't need one, don't do it. No, I don't really need one. I would have to say definitely potter first. Okay, and what got you into history?
00:02:34
Speaker
I mean, I joined the business after dad and I think we've all got all of us have got like a fascination with history. I was never interested in it that much at school because it was mainly about dates and battles. But I think once it twigged that history isn't just about dates and battles that it's about the
00:02:51
Speaker
actual people. I mean, yeah, that I've been hooked ever since. So yeah, I think always have had a like that core of interest. And then when dad said he needed an apprentice, I said, Yeah, I'll join and he thought I was joking. And then I quit my job as a teacher and
00:03:12
Speaker
And I was returning back from there. So I mean, that's when really got in deep when I actually properly joined the business.
If You Could Time Travel, Where Would You Go?
00:03:20
Speaker
But yeah, I can enthuse about history and archaeology and the things that we know and understand about people. I could just talk about it for hours. I get very excited about it.
00:03:31
Speaker
Well, that's great. That's wonderful. From our perspective as well. It's amazing. I'm always happy when people want to talk about history. Well, we'll get into, I guess that a bit later again, but seeing as you're now sort of so ingrained in history and, you know, love your history again, if you could travel back in time to a historic period, where exactly would you go?
00:03:51
Speaker
I mean, I don't know if it's because we're talking about Donny Betsonnitter, but I think just I wouldn't go anywhere too fancy. I would just want to go and see and sit with a potter. Obviously, there'd be no language barriers whatsoever.
00:04:07
Speaker
I think going back and just sitting with the people and just observing what was going on just for a day would be fascinating. I would want to see them cooking and eating and just all of the normal everyday stuff that people were doing. That's what I would like to do. So just to go back in time and be with a historic potter of some kind of option.
00:04:33
Speaker
Oh, I can imagine. That would be, I do, I agree. I'd really love that idea of not necessarily going back for a big event or a exciting burial or anything like that, but just to see how life was lived in the past, because that is definitely something that's difficult to grasp, I guess.
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah,
The Mystery of Historical Objects
00:04:50
Speaker
yeah. And I think it would tell us a lot more, because if you understand some of the basics, some of the, you know, just the way things were used, because, you know, there's so many objects, and we talk about how we think they might have been used. But the truth is, we're all guessing.
00:05:05
Speaker
You know, there is research that has been done into it, but a lot of it is just kind of us seeing the information, the small amount of information we have, and then kind of making up a reasonable conclusion from that. But to just be able to see and actually see things being used, I reckon the amount of information you can get within 24 hours of just watching would be mind blowing.
00:05:30
Speaker
Exactly, although also part of it would be the, I don't know, to me, part of the fascination of archaeology is the fact that we will never know. So yeah, you're taking away that mystery. So I guess on the one hand, it would be amazing. But on the other hand, imagine if, you know, it's completely boring. Oh, boy, that was terrible. You'd be like, oh, not running this up.
00:05:57
Speaker
I always say to people archaeology is just like a detective story apart from the last like 10 pages have been ripped out of the book so you never find out what actually happened.
00:06:05
Speaker
Well, I think that is also what makes it exciting because we make things and we theorize about what it's used for. And then somebody does some research or publishes some research, whatever it is, and suddenly we're like, oh, OK. So we sort of have to rethink. So in that point of view, it is really exciting. You can never stop learning and discovering, which I think is pretty wonderful about archaeology. I mean, obviously, there is a frustrating element of sometimes not.
00:06:33
Speaker
Very true, very true. But indeed, it's also almost a bit encouraging because then you're going, well, it might not be the right answer, but no one could prove I'm wrong.
Significance of the Venus of Doni Vestonice
00:06:43
Speaker
Well, obviously, it has to be based on evidence for those people listening in, you can't just make up things about the part, it has to be based on physical evidence.
00:06:50
Speaker
That's just what we're talking about. Well, thank you very much, Sarah, for joining my tea break today. And before we look at today's object, we shall indeed do a journey back in time, specifically to 29,000 years ago, to the site of, now I say, don't invest in it, because I'm probably pronouncing it incorrectly. How do you say it? Don't invest in it, but I don't know. No, that's probably that sounds better.
00:07:11
Speaker
So at the site of Dol Nivest and Nits in the Czech Republic, although obviously at this time, who knows what they actually called this location, this part of the world, the night is starting to draw in. So a fire has been lit in the center of the campsite, the flickering flames lighting up the faces of all those people gathered around to share the warmth.
00:07:28
Speaker
It's been a very busy day, but now is the time for pause and reflection. One set of hands is busy though, moulding together lumps of clay gathered from nearby, working and smoothing to create head, legs, hips, breasts. The figure, finalised, is held up to the light for inspection. One of the small children gathered around holds out a curious hand and the figurine is passed over. Later, unfortunately, it is broken, so left in the fireplace, a memory of the peace of dusk in the whirlwind of life.
00:07:55
Speaker
And that is what we're going to be talking about today. The Venus of Doni Vessonice. The Venus of Doni Vessonice. The nice thing is they probably also wouldn't have called it that. So, you know, it's fine.
00:08:10
Speaker
So we'll get into the details soon, but first of all, I always like to look at what the most asked questions on the internet are about this object using good old Google search. By putting in Venus of Don Ives de Niedze, actually there weren't that many results that came up for this one. I guess she's not quite as well known maybe as some of the other Venus figurines. But the first one that came up is, why is the Venus of Don Ives de Niedze important? She is.
00:08:33
Speaker
one of the oldest ceramic objects. So she dates back to the Ice Age, so the end of the Ice Age. And so you're talking about 26,000 BC, and she is about 4,000 years before the neck, like before ceramic vessels. So we're talking pots,
00:08:53
Speaker
She's just an example of the first use of clay being formed into an object and then they chose to make her. I mean alongside other items she was found with animals and also little male figures as well. She shows
00:09:10
Speaker
what people were doing when they first discovered the use of clay, which is fascinating, and it's this early art. The people who were making it were Denisovians as well, so we're not talking about modern humans, we're talking about ancient human people and the use
00:09:28
Speaker
that they found for Clay. So she's vital, I think. It's the idea of art is so important to us nowadays. It's in everything. Even people who claim not to partake in art still have opinions on the things that they see around them. I don't think any of us can be completely devoid of having art within our lives. And she is one of the earliest examples of art. She's amazing.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, which I guess answers the next question, which is what was the Venus of Doni Vestinice used for? So your opinion, and I think one of probably the most popular opinion is indeed it was a figurine in an art form. Yeah. Just for the sake of art, or do you think she had a, I hate the term ritual,
Theories About Venus Figurines
00:10:12
Speaker
but obviously it has to be brought in about figurine.
00:10:15
Speaker
It is a difficult one. I mean, I was brought up in Southern Africa. So the little animal figures that came with her were like, they're similar ones made in a very similar way, where I was brought up in the suit and the children would play with them. So they'd have that like, a lot of these children would end up perhaps being herd boys later in life. So when they played with the cattle, they were almost playing out their future role, if that makes sense. So
00:10:42
Speaker
So, yeah, I think it is possible that it was ritualistic, but I think there is also an argument for it being, maybe, I don't know if all of them were, because like I said, she was found with a number of objects, but there could be a use potentially as toys. I mean, I'm not sure, but certainly
00:11:04
Speaker
you know girls and boys nowadays but but it does seem to be a natural inclination often with girls and dolls as much as we would try to I've got a sudden and he does have a baby doll but
00:11:20
Speaker
he just isn't as interested as that as he is with the knives and the bows and the arrows and we've got them both and there does seem to be an inclination towards it. It is possible but then also in Lesotho there were ritualistic dolls so we have got a ritualistic thing and I'm comparing this because if you think
00:11:38
Speaker
I know we think we're all so unique, but I've seen similar sort of items or similar sort of concepts used in other countries. And I think it's important to look worldwide at what people come up with to help us understand the past, if that makes sense. Oh, definitely.
00:11:53
Speaker
And certainly in the suture they have these dolls that a woman or a young woman would have when she is getting married and this doll which is made out of beads is hung on her skirt and it's kept there until she becomes pregnant. Once she becomes pregnant the doll is broken down and then made into a grass skirt.
00:12:14
Speaker
So the dog, it's like a wish, it's like a hope that it hangs there as I suppose a talisman for the hope of a child. So you do wonder perhaps these were used as talismans and there were a lot of broken ones. They could have been broken in the firing, but they could also be that idea that once it's fulfilled its usefulness, you've got a baby, it's then broken.
00:12:38
Speaker
So I think there's so, as we were talking about before, there's so many possibilities. If you start looking around and start thinking about it, there are so many kind of possibilities that we will never know what she was used for. But I think I find the theories very fascinating.
Cultural Significance and Evolution of Venus Figurines
00:12:54
Speaker
Definitely.
00:12:55
Speaker
And also this idea indeed that she, it's just so long ago. I mean, just the amount of time is just almost impossible to fathom really. And like you mentioned that she was around even before, 4000 years before the first kind of pots were being made, which, you know, we think, oh yeah, it was a while ago. But if you think, no, no, it was even
00:13:17
Speaker
as I understand it the chemical analysis of the kiln site that they were using mammoth bone as a fuel so when you just like you know that the mammoths just seem
00:13:32
Speaker
Mammoths almost seem like dinosaurs. I know there's a lot further back but they just seem so old that it's really quite hard to get your head around that she is that old. We're talking about mammoth hunters here.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's incredible. And yeah, indeed, like you say, it's sort of, I think it's definitely essential that we look in all around the world, really, because the fact that it was so long ago, it's, I mean, so unrelated to maybe any modern human cultures. But so in that case, and you can really get inspiration from anywhere, because it's not like we have to look at Czech culture in order to understand who was there 29,000 years ago.
00:14:14
Speaker
No, and I think this is it. I think it's just looking at all of the possibilities and considering them carefully. I mean, I have heard some crazy ones. I mean, there was one theory, and I can't remember, it was a book I was reading recently, and they reckon that her arms are actually wings and that she's a bird goddess or something. There are some theories that I reckon we can probably do without, but
00:14:46
Speaker
It is very interesting to listen to all the theories, but you can definitely get carried away, I suppose is what I'm saying.
00:14:54
Speaker
No, I think as with all things, I suppose, archaeologically, it's one of my favourite things of these kind of mystery objects, you know, like the Scottish Carved Stone Balls and the Roman Dodecahedra and everything. And it's always fun to have discussions with people. But then at the end of the day, everyone's just going, well, you know, oh, well, we'll never know. Good news. Good news.
00:15:13
Speaker
And I find it very satisfying to be able to just... I find it satisfying. And in amongst all of that, maybe we got it right. In amongst all of the theories, maybe we got it right. The carved stone balls are one of the things that I find also particularly fascinating as well. That is one thing, if I would travel back in time, I think I'd go back to the carved stone ball maker.
00:15:38
Speaker
and just be like, so why? What? What is this? Yes, thank you very much for enlightening us. We know, well, I would like to say we know a little bit more about the Venus of Don Ibezte, but we don't, I guess that's the point of America.
00:15:56
Speaker
I think we should mention it because we've been using the term, or I've been using the term anyway, Venus so far. But for example, on your website, and I've seen in a lot of other places as well, these figurines are not referred to as Venus's, but just as women. So what's the kind of discussion around that? I think there's a number of things. I mean, the first of being that Venus is a Roman goddess who definitely didn't exist when these statues were being made.
00:16:24
Speaker
I suppose it depends on your belief. I don't believe she existed. I think she was created by people a lot later on. So it's very confusing. It can make the history feel a little bit blurry.
Why is the Term 'Venus' Problematic?
00:16:40
Speaker
But the other thing is that the use of the term Venus, it was almost sometimes used ironically. I think when the Villendorf was found, she was named Venus, but she was also called Grotesque.
00:16:53
Speaker
it feels like they're kind of like almost yeah, yeah, like it's an ironic term that she isn't really and I don't think that's fair, because she's she's beautiful, as is the Don Ivesse and Nitza, they're both beautiful in their own right. And so I don't think we want to stick with anything that has that kind of negative connotations. It also has a connection with Sarah Bartman, who was in the 19th century, she was
00:17:18
Speaker
put on display essentially in London and like traipse around London. And she was called the hot and top Venus. And all of these kinds of connections, it just feels a bit grubby and a bit unpleasant. And she had a really miserable time because essentially they took away her humanity and she was no longer a woman, she was a Venus. And if she was a Venus, she wasn't, she didn't have feelings. And it becomes quite objectified. And I think that can be a problem. And unfortunately,
00:17:45
Speaker
even after her death, Asara's body was put on display. So again, we've just stripped all of the humanity out of it by claiming them to be a Venus, not a human. Does that make sense? So I think that there's been a change, there's been a preference for people not to call them Venuses to kind of give them back their human form, give them back their womanhood.
00:18:09
Speaker
and say it's okay to celebrate the female form as a female form, not as a deity or something other. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And although there is also that extra, I mean, we don't have to go into too much detail with this, we'll talk
Realism in Venus Figurines
00:18:23
Speaker
about the clay in a sec. But I'm just curious what your opinion is, in terms of this assumption that the Venus figurines or the women figurines represent kind of mother goddesses, fertility symbols, that kind of thing, rather than indeed, individual women.
00:18:37
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, this is it because we don't understand, we don't know, we don't know who they represent. I mean, certainly when you look at both of them, and you look, I mean, I'm holding a replica of the dolney vest in yet to here, there's a clear understanding of how the flesh kind of hangs on a body. You've got the sort of the ripples at the back, at her back, you've got the pendulum breasts, you've got a stomach that looks like she may have had a baby, so it's sort of sagging slightly.
00:19:03
Speaker
to me, the person who made this, they've seen a woman like this, they haven't, they haven't imagined it, they haven't created it as some kind of mythical thing. So I feel like it must have been modeled on a woman or women that were seen within the community, whether after they modeled it, it became something else. Yeah.
00:19:23
Speaker
Again, we just will never know. I also happen to have a very nice figurine that I bought from a certain shop in my hands right now. And indeed, I really like the idea of, especially when I was pregnant, I was sort of looking at them going, yeah, I could imagine if I didn't have any mirror and I just was looking down at myself, you know, then this is also what I would see.
00:19:47
Speaker
And you can see those breasts, obviously there's no support there, like the bras hadn't clearly been invented. So yeah, you end up with these very kind of pendular breasts. And you can imagine, this isn't a young woman, this is somebody who's lived, probably given birth, maybe more than once, yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, I really like that's my favourite theory, personally. Although I what I really love about this particular Venus or women, woman, I mean, was that there was analysis done at some point, which found a what they think was a child's fingerprint.
Children's Involvement in Pottery
00:20:19
Speaker
Yes. On the back, which I love that idea of potentially and someone suggested or maybe it was actually children could have made these as well. Do you think that's a possibility?
00:20:28
Speaker
If I remember correctly, the fingerprint is on the bottom, and I have an eight year old son, and if I have these lying out, he is guaranteed to come and poke one of them in the bum. So it's kind of like, you know, for me, that's what it conjures up like, like, we, George comes into the workshop, and he's kind of present sometimes. And there are times, don't touch that, stop that, don't do that. You know,
00:20:52
Speaker
And that's my imagining of it, is that they gave this thing, they've set it out to dry and a curious finger's gone, eh, and just had a little prod. But again, it's kind of that lovely idea that we can come up with our own sort of stories. But I mean, I don't think it's impossible that children made that. We've had children come into the workshop, and in fact, my son, he's very capable at making things. So I think if you had a child in training and they practiced,
00:21:21
Speaker
I don't see why a younger person couldn't have made it. It is a well thought out, well designed, carefully made object, but they didn't have, you know, iPads and they didn't have CBBs. So children would have been, you know, probably spending more time learning these sorts of skills than our children perhaps get the opportunity to do. But yeah. Yeah.
00:21:48
Speaker
I was just thinking actually have you made any of these with a fingerprint on the bottom?
Fingerprints in Pottery: A Humorous Take
00:21:53
Speaker
We don't we don't avoid so if I see a fingerprint I don't I don't panic and try and get it off we don't specifically put one on on the same spot generally
00:22:03
Speaker
Partly because whenever we make something, we are trying to replicate it, and it does vary depending on what the requirement is. But we try and make it the soul, if that makes sense. If you try and recreate something so accurately that it becomes an obsession, you almost lose what's beautiful about a handmade object, which is its imperfections. So when we make things, we accept
00:22:29
Speaker
that there will be fingerprints on them, 100%. There will be fingerprints on them. I'm looking at this one to see if I can find fingerprints. But whether they're in the same spot or not, we don't obsessively try to do that. In fact, I can see one on the neck of this one.
00:22:46
Speaker
I don't know if I do. I was just curious. I thought, you know, that would be indeed very, very often difficult. I probably have at some point. I mean, to be honest, we do sometimes don't tell Graham, but occasionally when he's making Big Amfer and stuff, I like to put a little fingerprint on the inside of someone. Just give it a prod once he's not watching. But I love the idea of that fingerprints and stuff. He's laughing at me from the background.
00:23:08
Speaker
I just love the idea of that piece, that piece of information being stored and that one day in a thousand years or whatever, when they are looking at objects made nowadays, my fingerprint could be sitting there and someone will be like, oh, there's a fingerprint. I wonder who the potter was. And there'll be a whole paper written on it. That's amazing. Scientific analysis. And actually it was just you. Yeah, just me tinkering about.
00:23:37
Speaker
But again, that relates to what we were talking about earlier, right? Of the whole, it's just every day. And I really love that as well, when you can actually see, like in some pots, where you can see the finger marks of the potters. And my favourite thing ever was something I saw on Twitter or something of like, ancient cats. And you can see on some like medieval manuscript, and then there's little cat paw prints going over the top or something, because some cats obviously stepped in the ink well. And it's like,
00:24:02
Speaker
It just humanises the past. Like the Roman roof tiles with children's feet, pigs feet. And they often tell stories because you'll have children and pigs feet and you're like either a child was being chased by a pig or a pig was being chased by a child. And you kind of that moment is just stored in time for us to kind of wonder about. I think it's fascinating. And again, probably was just, you know,
00:24:26
Speaker
unimportant moment, but it's something that just, yeah, it, I think it makes it more relatable, right? Like it makes the past something that we can relate to, which I love anyway, personally. That's what I love the most here. Yeah. You mentioned a little bit about how these were really beautifully crafted, obviously objects, I mean,
Pottery Skills and Early Clay Use
00:24:41
Speaker
So these are indeed, she mentioned that she is one of the earliest clay objects that you have, or that we have as humanity. How easy would it have been to make them? I mean, what sort of knowledge because I'm thinking of sort of firing processes and all of this kind of thing? I mean, what would there have been actually clay objects being made a lot longer before? Or do you think it was
00:25:03
Speaker
Well, we don't know for sure. One of the things, unfortunately, about prehistoric pottery is how low fired it is. So you want your ceramics, if you want it to become ceramics, you've got to fire it over 550 degrees. At that point, the chemical reaction and the crystallizing of the material means that you've got something that technically is ceramic.
00:25:26
Speaker
To get it really strong, you want to go much higher. 800 degrees is probably about what they were getting, which means you end up with something that's relatively fragile. I think most people have had a ceramic pot in their garden or a ceramic ornament in their garden and it gets the frost into it and it cracks and it crumbles apart.
00:25:49
Speaker
I had it with my day tree pots last year. It's really, really annoying, but once the water's got into those cracks, I mean there's nothing that you can do about it. So it's hard to say whether she is the earliest one or that these are the earliest objects because there could have been earlier things
00:26:08
Speaker
that just disintegrated. We did an experiment with a large vessel, we've got one in the yard at the minute, where we leave it out for the elements to do with what they will. And we found that within about two years, like a large, I think a large urn it was,
00:26:24
Speaker
you couldn't see it anymore, it just disintegrated into nothingness, a combination of being cracked by the frost, then insects move into it and then once the insects have moved into it, the birds get interested in it and they start flinging it round to get the insects out and it just slowly gets broken smaller and smaller. So it's possible that there were a lot more, maybe everyone was making these, maybe there was a mass industry, it's hard to know.
00:26:51
Speaker
But they just weren't surviving because they are so low fired. So it's hard to say if everyone was doing them. But in terms of skill, she took skill. The animals were more crudely kind of pinched together, but she would have taken quite a bit of skill to model and to carefully get into shape. And I'm guessing they probably will have had bone tools. We use quite a lot of bone tools. And then you would need a fire. I mean, it's not that much of a startup.
00:27:21
Speaker
Kate, I mean, most people could go into their garden, dig up some clay and make themselves a pot. I think we are blessed with clay in this country. Although if you're a gardener, you wouldn't say blessed. I was about to say my answer. We are cursed with clay in this country.
00:27:39
Speaker
But, but, yeah, so, so, you know, yeah, it doesn't take much. I think I've rambled now trying to decide whether I even answered the question, to be honest. I think so. No, but it's because it is. It's fascinating. It's this idea of because I mean, we think of or at least I think of I have to say, as someone who's tried to make their own things and sometimes succeeded, but, you know, especially when you're a child, you just want it to be simple and you just want to make a clay thing and maybe you put it in the oven, you know, like that female clay stuff. And it's so easy. But then actual
00:28:09
Speaker
proper ceramics and pottery, you know, it takes a lot longer. And so the idea of how people got there, I mean, when, right, how do you think they discovered that? And don't invest in it to where they were making it, they'd actually dug a half into a clay bank.
00:28:26
Speaker
So if you think about cooking, it is easier done if you can do it so you don't have to crouch down. So it is perfectly possible that people saw this soil that holds its shape really well and thought, I'm going to dig myself a hearth into that.
00:28:42
Speaker
So then once you've placed your half there and you've cooked in it, you're going to get flakes of ceramic coming up, because the heat from your fire, even if you're just cooking, is going to fire into clay. And then what it takes, and this is the most beautiful thing, I think, in humans, and you see it in children, you see it in people, even if they're not rediscovering something new, but it's that taking that spark of understanding, this happens when I do this. Well, then from there, I can then take it and I can do this.
00:29:09
Speaker
And it's the way that our brains work. We can take a concept and then transform it and make it into something that benefits us or suits what we want to do. So I can't be sure. That's how it was discovered. But it seems likely to me that somebody made a fire to cook with, to heat their home, whatever, and noticed the clay being transformed into ceramic. They're digging it up and doing stuff with it.
00:29:38
Speaker
would be my guess. And because I guess it still changes a lot over time. So you have that sort of the maybe the first use of clay where you're just using the raw clay, but I'm trying to desperately remember my experimental archaeology classes at uni.
Historical Mass Production and Roman Techniques
00:29:51
Speaker
And I vaguely remember in pottery course, there was something about the inclusions in the clay and use
00:29:57
Speaker
other things to make it different? Yeah, I mean, you can actually dig clay, because when the Donny-Weschmütze was made, it was the end of the Ice Age, and a lot of the clay was created by the ice shifting, and so you end up with the ground down particles that make up the clay, and we're at the end of the Ice Age, which means that soil hadn't really covered up the clay a great deal.
00:30:22
Speaker
And because of that, you would have had quick and easy access, these people would have had fairly quick easy access to the clay layers. And it's unlikely that it had too much nasty inclusions in it. But in all honesty, one of the things we spend most of our time doing in the workshop, because we can't process all of our clay, it's just not
00:30:44
Speaker
time, you know, we just can't do it. There isn't the time of the day that would take us the longest of making the pot. So what we actually do is we buy clay, I mean, it's all natural. So it's it's, you know, it's dug somewhere else. And then we spend a lot of time putting things back into it. It's in grit back into it. So the grit is quite useful. A grit can help to keep the object from exploding in the firing and keep it a bit more stable. So I don't think unless it's a big pebble,
00:31:14
Speaker
I don't think that they would have really had to do a great deal in terms of processing the clay. I think they probably would have dug it, got really your major stones, but you probably could use it quite instantly, to be honest. And how much does the use of clay, as in the material itself, vary over time? So you have this initial quite simple, I suppose, then?
00:31:39
Speaker
method of clay creation, or clay object creation, and presumably, at what point does it kind of start taking off and getting a bit more industrialized? I mean, it's difficult to say because the number of sherds found at this site, they reckon there must have been around 700 animals, I think.
00:31:59
Speaker
77 figures in total. So when you're talking about mass production, actually, it's possible that the ones that were found were just the wasters and the wasters mean the ones that broke in the firing. It's perfectly possible because geographically, I'll have to check this, but geographic, this site was situated in a sort of
00:32:22
Speaker
a logical kind of trade route, if that makes sense. It kind of was within a corridor and I'd have to look that up. So it is very possible that people migrating from one area to the other were actually passing through there and that these people were providing figurines for them because it's just such a large proportion. And I think Graham did the maths and it's something like if you reckon that 20%
00:32:50
Speaker
The number found, the 700 only represents a 20% loss rate. And a 20% loss rate is actually a very, very high loss rate. So if we assume a very high loss rate, we would be looking at a total production of 3,500 figures. That's less than five figures per day for a year.
00:33:11
Speaker
And we could definitely, I mean, I could definitely bang out more than, just say five figures, 10 figures per day for a year would give you that number. I mean, I'm not saying it is definitely a mass production site. I'm just saying that there was a lot of figures there. So when we talk about mass production that there
00:33:29
Speaker
I don't think we can fully discount that at this particular site. But the Romans probably really started your absolute mass production. They started getting into molds. And then once you've got a potter's wheel, when the potter's wheel comes in, you can bash out pots a lot quicker than you can just doing it by hand. And I think that probably is when we can really say mass production properly started.
00:33:55
Speaker
In terms of what I find quite interesting, Graham and I were talking about this the other day, is in terms of ceramics, building and making things, there's a number of ways you can
Consistency in Pottery Techniques
00:34:06
Speaker
do it. You can pinch it, you can coil it, you can make slabs and create pots.
00:34:11
Speaker
But predominantly, it doesn't matter where you are in the world, and I'm not saying all pots, but predominantly all pots are made round. We have the capacity to make them square, but if you look at prehistoric pottery, predominantly it's all very round, and it's so interesting that pottery and clay must have been discovered in multiple places all over the world, and yet
00:34:36
Speaker
the actual physical techniques for using it and making it still remain pretty similar then as they do now. I mean, we have got other technologies that have come in, but ultimately I'm still, even if I was making a modern piece, I'm still working in a similar way to a prehistoric pot I might be working, which is, you know, amazing. That's pretty cool. I guess it's just one of those materials indeed that there's no
00:35:03
Speaker
Well, I guess obviously it does develop. And like you say, the inclusions develop over time and I suppose the style of firing and things develop over time because you get porcelain and all of that kind of stuff. But still, it's not like almost phones where you can have suddenly this amazing new technology develop. Or are there amazing innovations that happen? There are innovations. I mean, you're getting some innovations now. You've got 3D printing, she says, spit, spit, horrible, 3D printing.
00:35:29
Speaker
It's useful in its own right, but you've got these things that are coming in and it is quite fascinating that these new technologies are coming in and they should and they should change and it should move on. It's just interesting that the main ways that potters work, it still kind of does
00:35:47
Speaker
pretty much remain the same. And 3D printing of ceramics is at this stage pretty niche. I would say you've probably got more people working in traditional styles than you do in that style. And we're talking about thousands of years of things pretty much staying very samey, which is fascinating. I mean, obviously we've got electronic wheels and we do, I must admit,
00:36:09
Speaker
do some of our Roman stuff on the electric potter's wheel.
Modern Adaptations in Pottery
00:36:14
Speaker
But it's still a potter's wheel. It's still a potter's wheel and it's not that dissimilar. The only reason really is Graham's back cannot maintain using that wheel for every day to create pots. He's very fast on it and it is a very efficient wheel so we've got a stick wheel that relies on momentum.
00:36:35
Speaker
you know, we've got to consider our health and also the expectations of our customers. And if we were doing it all on a stick wheel, you know, we would have to adjust the pricing accordingly. It's just
00:36:50
Speaker
to do with the way that modern life works, basically. But as much as possible, we do things the way that they would have been done. We make them as they would have been done because they don't look right. You cannot throw a Bronze Age beaker on a potter's wheel and then disguise that. You can pretty much, but you just can't really get rid of all of that evidence.
00:37:18
Speaker
I was curious about that. If we talk a bit more about pottery and the work that you are doing, so indeed you're doing a lot of, I guess, what would be called experimental archaeology in a way then?
Potters and Archaeologists: A Collaborative Relationship
00:37:32
Speaker
Yeah, we do do a lot. And we, as I said earlier, we make things for people to do experiments.
00:37:39
Speaker
in, we do, I said earlier, may use more modern processed clays, and then we include the correct inclusions into it, because that's the way to do it. And yeah, we form them in the same way that they would be formed. We have and we do go through the whole process. We've had people
00:37:58
Speaker
posting us clay from all over the country. And we will happily make with clay that's provided to us from a specific area of the country. It just takes a little bit longer to kind of, you've got to dry it out to be able to post it and then we kind of get it all going, etc, etc. And it just takes that little bit of extra time. So yeah, we can and do work
00:38:22
Speaker
as authentically as people want us to work. So it's just up to the client really, as to what they need. I mean, I'm a massive fan of experimental archaeology. I do a lot. Actually, it's funny when you're talking about adding in the inclusions. I remember I wanted to look at use wear traces on a piece of ivory. And I did it, but then I was looking at it and going, it's just too clean, like the archaeological objects of dirt in all the pores and everything. So I went out and
00:38:48
Speaker
just rubbed it in some soil for a bit and then came back in. It's like, oh yes, there you go. I can see them now. We'll do that with our own lamps and things. Once they've been used, they do just look more authentic. You've got the right burn patterns. Yes. My one has a nice oil stain on the top as well because I accidentally spilt the olive oil. Yeah, me too.
00:39:11
Speaker
But yes, no big fan of experimental archaeology. And I love indeed the idea that you sort of come more from the potting background or should we say the potter's background into it. And did you find that it was, I don't know how to explain it. I mean, what's the advantages, I guess, or disadvantage of coming from that side of things rather than necessarily being an archaeologist who dabbles in pottery? You know, how is it being
00:39:36
Speaker
I think we all achieve when we put our skills together and I would never ever think we could replace the work that an archaeologist could do. We have on occasions had archaeologists perhaps look down on what we do because it doesn't come with a PhD or a doctorate.
00:39:56
Speaker
And I think that can be a little bit of a disadvantage. And we're talking perhaps more old school archaeologists, and I'm certainly not going to name any names. So that can be quite difficult, is to make yourself heard. And this will surprise you sometimes. It's harder for me to make myself heard than it is Graham. You have stepped onto me. I know.
00:40:20
Speaker
There has been the odd occasions where a question has been asked and I've answered it and had a very sniffy response. And so the same question has been put to Graham and surprise, surprise, he gives the same example, which the person getting the answer is nodding. Oh, yes. You should just throw a Venus figurine at him.
00:40:41
Speaker
I roll my eyes and walk away, I just think no. But yeah, so sometimes I suppose coming at it from a potter's point of view, there might be some people who perceive that as being somehow lesser, if that makes sense. But we are very, very lucky. We have such a wonderful community of archaeologists who we do discuss and talk with.
00:41:01
Speaker
What's really nice is they are so willing to share their information, which means that we can then do a better job, and then we can throw it back to them, and they can then use their knowledge to come together, and then we come up with the best ideas. I think that experimental archaeology is being studied now in universities, which is wonderful.
00:41:23
Speaker
And I think it's that hands-on practicing using things. And I talk for any skill, cooking, napping, anything, any of these skills that require a craftsman, I think getting someone who really knows what they're doing will help us all understand better how things work.
Research in Recreating Historical Pottery
00:41:43
Speaker
And yeah, we would never ever claim to be a fine set specialist. If somebody comes to me with a bit of a shirt, I might be able to help them out. It's just not our area. So we're just much stronger as a team, I think. Yes, definitely. I couldn't agree more. I think it's and especially because yeah, I work a lot with artifacts. Obviously, I do artifact analysis is my main job, but I get most of my insights from those technologies that I personally have experience with because
00:42:12
Speaker
I know how they work, and I have experienced it myself. And I think that that's a pretty essential point when looking at me. And I think it is, and it is wonderful. And that's why it's nice to get to be able to talk to you and talk to other people, because there's just points of view that where you just, you see through your eyes the whole time, and you can't see through someone else's. So to have them kind of throw something into your viewpoint and go, oh, God, yeah. And it just opens up the conversation and makes it far more worthwhile. Yeah.
00:42:42
Speaker
like the Venus figurines being birds. I think that's a very worthwhile conclusion to make. So in terms of potted history, then you already mentioned briefly. So it was Graham, your father who started it. And that's how it kind of came about. Was it always historic pottery that was being
00:43:02
Speaker
No, when we were in Southern Africa, we ran, well, I was a child, but Dad and Mum ran a pottery where they made dinner services and things like that. But when they came back to the UK, Dad's always had a strong interest in history and somebody had asked him if he thought he might be able to replicate something. Knowing he was a potter, it was like, oh, I know you're a potter, so maybe you can do this. So he had a go and he really enjoyed it.
00:43:28
Speaker
And then it just kind of went from there. And because he's so passionate about history, he put a lot of effort into it. And I think he just gained a name for it. And it's gone from there. And rarely now do we make anything other than historic items. Occasionally we will. I think occasionally just almost like a holiday. You just need to do something now.
00:43:49
Speaker
But it's usually just that, it's a plant of the garden or something small. We don't tend to, we just, yeah, it changed completely. So we went from dinner services and that, mass producing, those sorts of things, to something quite different. But I think he's happier.
00:44:06
Speaker
much happier doing this. Of course, always. When you're doing anything archaeological or historical, it's always got to be better. Oh, absolutely. And I'm curious as to the kind of process of creating the objects. Do you study the archaeological objects? Do you study analyses of the objects? We try and get as much information as we can possibly get. So given the opportunity, we will go and handle the object. That's not always possible.
00:44:34
Speaker
But we have been let into the British Museum sometimes to handle things. It's very exciting going into that. But when you get to kind of touch things and look at things, obviously in a very controlled environment with three things. I'm just trying to see what the inclusion is.
00:44:51
Speaker
So given the chance, yes, we will go as deep into it as we possibly can. But sometimes it is the case of images or whatever information we can get. We do have a massive library that is growing. And yeah, we look into that all the time for items. And we want to research and make absolutely sure that we know as much about an object as we can possibly know about it.
00:45:17
Speaker
So yeah, a lot of research does go into each item. Yeah, very good. And what's your favourite object
Sarah's Creative Preferences in Pottery
00:45:23
Speaker
to make? That's a really tough one, I think. I quite like doing the modelling things. So I like to do statues. So if there's anything like that, it tends to be me. So I really do enjoy making the goddesses. I made a Dionysus statue, that sort of thing. And it's really good because Dad does not like doing that so much. So we sort of have this natural balance where that's what I like to do. So anything like that.
00:45:46
Speaker
and prehistoric bronze age, all of those things. See, I just love it all. Which is good. It's very good that you like what you do. It makes it easy. And it's nice indeed that you have that kind of team. I wonder whether that happened in the past as well, right? Like whether, you know, one of the people in the village really liked making the beakers and the other one really liked making the figures. I think
00:46:08
Speaker
must have done it and it was never really discussed it was just kind of I enjoyed doing it and Dad clearly didn't and so but you know if we get a request in it just naturally
Popular Pottery Replicas: What Sells?
00:46:22
Speaker
falls to me that there's not really a discussion about it because he's not that interested but yeah I reckon there must have been
00:46:30
Speaker
You do see sometimes, particularly in oil lamps and things, styles. And you think that looks like that could have been done by the same sort of person. And I suspect that is it, that if you were good at it, you would be set to do that so that someone else could be set to do something else and do the best.
00:46:49
Speaker
do it the best. Yeah, and I suppose indeed, if you're enjoying it, then you usually are better at it, right? Yeah, I think that's it, yeah. It's just a job. And what would you say is the most popular object that you sell at Potted History? I know that the woman of Vindolf, she is really popular. Very good. Yeah, she's a very popular, I mean, I love her, I have one at home, and I'm not a particularly spiritual kind of a person, but there's something about the weight of her
00:47:16
Speaker
And I also quite like to hold her in my hands sometimes and think about the other ones that are around the world. We have sent them worldwide. And so I got distracted because I think we recently sent a parcel to Svalbard. Amazing Father Christmas in Svalbard.
00:47:33
Speaker
you know literally things are like spread all over the world and I like to hold her in my hand and think about like you know where the other ones are like like she's sort of part of this amazing tribe yeah so but like I'm not particularly spiritual necessarily but there's something quite powerful about that so I can't I can't understand why she's popular and the Stonehenge Cup Stonehenge Cup people are mad for it. It's very cool yeah I haven't got one of them yet I'm sitting up
00:48:00
Speaker
I'm trying to, I think I might, I have to do another video on them, right? So it's work expense.
00:48:10
Speaker
And I'm curious, so you mentioned before that you've done kind of workshops with kids and
Workshops, YouTube, and Future Projects
00:48:15
Speaker
those sort of things. So obviously you make the replicas, you do some workshops, what other things are on the... So we're building up our YouTube channel where we do chat about things like the Stonehenge Cup and theories. We do understand their theories and we do sort of try and help people understand how the objects were used.
00:48:33
Speaker
In terms of the Roman things, that's easy. So today, in fact, I'm probably going to be tasting it later. I've been cooking in a clebanis and recording doing it. I saw the pictures. It looks so good. But that helps people if they want to buy one.
00:48:49
Speaker
be able to understand how to use it because you can't quite cook with them in the same way as you would cook with the thing in the oven. We're used to just shoving a thing into a really hot oven but with these pots you can't really just fling them onto a fire because they'll get shock. So the point of the YouTube channel is to think about how things were used and also help people who might be wanting to use them
00:49:14
Speaker
you know, use them effectively and safely, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a big old mine of information and pottery joy is what it is. That's perfect. Oh, yes. And I'll make sure to put the link in the show notes because it sounds really good. And is there anything else exciting coming up in the future for pottery history? There is. Sometimes I have to do a quick little log and make sure, is there anything I'm not allowed to mention? Right. True. Yes.
00:49:41
Speaker
the top secret Venus of Wilendorff world domination. We've had to sign confidentiality disclosure thingy with things. So on occasions you have to go
00:49:58
Speaker
I don't know if you call that. So there's something with Stonehenge, an exciting project about the Neolithic from around the world. It's an exciting sort of Stonehenge, Neolithic collaboration kind of thing going on.
00:50:12
Speaker
So that is very exciting. And then this weekend we've got another kiln firing at Vindolanda because we have our replica kiln at Vindolanda. So the items that get fired there authentically, so they've been made authentically and then they get fired authentically and then they end up on the authentic online shop. Full authenticity. I may buy them with my authentic money.
00:50:44
Speaker
Well, I think that marks the end of our tea
Podcast Closing and Teaser for Next Episode
00:50:47
Speaker
break. It sounds like you have a lot to do. Thank you so, so much for joining me today, Sarah. It was really nice to chat with you. Thank you. It was really nice to be here.
00:50:58
Speaker
Yeah, good. And if anyone wants to find out more about Sarah's work or the Potted History's work and about clay objects from human history and prehistory and of course the YouTube channel, do check the show notes on the podcast homepage and make sure to visit the Potted History website to pick up some wonderful little replicas. I hope that everyone enjoyed our journey today and see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:51:22
Speaker
I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. If you did, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. And I'll see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:51:34
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.