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Out of the dark ages and into downward dog - Ep 22
407 Plays7 months ago
It’s time to come out of the dark ages this month with one of the most famous British archaeological sites: Sutton Hoo. This episode, Matilda is joined by Natasha Billson, a professional archaeologist and presenter, to chat all about the amazing Sutton Hoo helmet. Why is this object so important to our understanding of the past? What does it have to do with Sri Lankan garnets? And how can archaeologists engage with pseudoscience? Tune in to find out all this and more!
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/teabreak/22
Links
- Natasha’s video on Sutton Hoo
- Sue Brunning Sutton Hoo Blog
- Sue Brunning Curator’s Corner
- The Dig film imdb
- The Dig book goodreads
Guest Contact
- Name: Natasha Billson
- insta: @tash_archaeo
- YouTube: @BehindtheTrowel
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- Email: [email protected]
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- twitter: @ArchaeoTeacup
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Affiliates
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to Tea Break Time Travel, where every month we look at a different archaeological object and take you on a journey into their past.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to episode 22 of Tea Break Time Travel. I am your host, Matilda Ziebrecht. Today, I am savoring an orange chai roibos tea. I couldn't decide which one to put first. It's like one of those naming lists where you have to have different adjectives in a certain order, but I'm going with orange chai roibos tea. And joining me on my tea break today is archaeologist and presenter, Natasha Bilson.
Meet the Hosts
00:00:39
Speaker
So welcome, Natasha. And are you also on tea today?
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello. Yes, I am. I'm having just a bog standard English breakfast tea. Nothing special. But it's Yorkshire, good old Yorkshire tea. And is that then black? Is it with milk? Oh, no, no, with milk, with milk. And I'm going through a phase of having sugar again, which is quite rare for me. I mean, I have not had sugar in my tea for 10, 15 years. And I don't know, it's all about the sugar at the moment. Sometimes we just need that little sweet, sweet savoury.
Tea Talk
00:01:08
Speaker
And I'm curious, so I'm not a big black tea drinker. I just sort of drink whatever black tea has given to me, but I did a poll on my Instagram at some points recently to say, what is your favourite kind of tea? And so many people said Earl Grey. And then we're sort of saying, oh, not that English breakfast. I don't know if there was that much of a difference. There's difference. No, wait, English breakfast is basically a standard black tea. I mean, I mean, you're more of a tea. You know more about tea than I do. But for me, it's just like black tea.
00:01:34
Speaker
And it could be stronger, maybe a bit weaker, depending on what type of leeks you have. And then you have L Grey, which is like a sweeter black tea. So by itself, you don't need sugar. If it's someone who likes sugar in their tea, you could substitute maybe for an L Grey because it's just naturally sweeter. Oh, I did not know this.
00:01:56
Speaker
I think maybe that's why I don't, because my parents always used to drink English breakfast. So that's why I didn't really drink black tea growing up, because it was always a bit too bitter for me. Yeah, I mean, I personally don't, I need milk in my tea. Yeah. Unless I'm unwell, like we only have black tea with sugar, if you're sick, you know, that's the only time they drink black tea. That's how I associate black tea with myself anyway. I was forced to drink black tea with toast.
00:02:23
Speaker
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. See, I think I drink black tea now because I don't really drink coffee, so I drink black tea in the morning if I need to wake up. Anyway, good. Well, that's good. I've learnt something already. I'm going to go and try some El Grey because I don't think... It's lovely. You need some El Grey in your life. Yeah. Interesting.
00:02:40
Speaker
I will go and try that today. But anyway, I didn't ask you to come on here for your tea expertise, even though that's apparently interesting. Tom, I came on to ask you about your archaeological expertise. And one of the things I ask all of my guests and everyone's given such a different story is the kind of road that they took to get to an archaeological sort of specialisation or
Natasha's Archaeology Journey
00:03:02
Speaker
focus. So what was it about archaeology that made you want to be an archaeologist? Or how did it come about, I guess? Yeah, great question.
00:03:10
Speaker
How am I feeling today? Let's see. Well, as a commercial field archaeologist, having a background in that, that does come every few years. You do question your life choices. Honestly, today is one of those days where my wrists are just like, what have I done in my life and my back? But you know, that's the sacrifice you make for understanding the past and following your passions.
00:03:36
Speaker
So for me, I would say that I've been quite fortunate to always be surrounded with the curiosity to learn about our past and what connects us in today's society through shared heritage. So, you know, growing up, my mother was fascinated with Ancient Egypt, we had tons of
00:03:55
Speaker
pictures and random little brick and brick artifacts, based on those things that you have in people's houses. So my mum has loads of those. And then in my primary school, it was bombed in World War One or World War Two. And we had this memorabilia covered in the corridors. I just always had this memory of walking from one class to another and having just these corridors filled with all these random artifacts and memorabilia from the wall.
00:04:23
Speaker
So I think having those two contrasts with modern history versus ancient history, as well as being in England, where we have all these historic churches and landscapes, buildings all around us, you're constantly reminded of the past in a positive way, I would say. So the local park, again, you have a lovely church that was recorded from doomsday, so 1066. We have this consensus that's made in England. Once we have the Normans come into power, we see
00:04:52
Speaker
everything basically be documented. So we have this record of churches, for instance, around England. So I think all of these aspects have really ignited that passion and desire to know more about the past.
Broad Interests in Archaeology
00:05:06
Speaker
And you mentioned, like you say, sort of ancient history, more modern history, do you have a preference in terms of that? I mean, would you do commercial archaeology? But would you also call yourself a bit of a historian? Yeah, this is a weird one. I feel like
00:05:20
Speaker
In the public sphere, like I would say on social media and things, I would say like a public historian, sometimes I would use quite loosely because I feel that there is this thin bridge between both in the public space. Obviously, academically, it is different. We look and we interpret things in a different light. But
00:05:42
Speaker
I don't know, maybe public historian, maybe because I don't feel like I don't specialise in one area in particular, and that is because of being a commercial archaeologist, you have to have a breadth of knowledge about everything. You have to know how to identify something, just looking at it, spot dating, having characteristics of each time period, everything has like a telltale sign. Whether it be the smell, I know smell is kind of a weird thing to say, but sometimes there's a smell.
00:06:07
Speaker
When something changes, the deposit, that tells you nothing. You just know something's like, oh, that smells. I'm going to break. Someone else can take over in this game. It feels different as you excavate something, layer upon layer, the compaction, the inclusions, these all are telltale signs of something being different.
00:06:27
Speaker
So you have to know a bit about everything. And I don't really have a passion era. I would say it changes all the time. Every six months to a year, it just changes. Depends what I'm doing, I would say. And it inspires curiosity to research that area. I guess, would there be a maybe a favourite kind of period or regional area that you would want to excavate more than anything else?
00:06:53
Speaker
So not necessarily have an interest in kind of a physical activity. This is difficult as well, you know, because I've worked on a lot of different archaeological sites around the world. I've been very fortunate to have that experience, to not only be international filled expeditions led by actual local archaeologists, I'm just joining their team as the one foreign
00:07:14
Speaker
person, which is good in itself for a great experience to, you know, learn language on the spot being the one who doesn't speak that said language. You know, I don't know, because I've done, I've done a bit of everything, I would like to go back and do a bit more maritime archaeology, I would say, because I haven't done that for a while. That's one thing I haven't, I would like to have done more of. I did that during my undergraduate, originally, when I was gonna do archaeology at Bournemouth University, which is just
00:07:44
Speaker
amazing for archaeology. Well, also maritime archaeology, right? They have a big... Yeah. They're brilliant. I mean, I would say I did Romans. Roman archaeology was kind of my thing and still is my thing. I can't answer this. We've got a whole podcast episode to discuss this question. Maybe if we can talk about the object at some point, that'll be cool as well.
00:08:09
Speaker
I'm interested in everything.
Time Travel Desires
00:08:12
Speaker
That's really interesting as well. I think a lot of people assume that they have to specialise, so it's nice to hear that you can still have broad interests and still make a career out of it. It's not a limiting factor. True, true, true.
00:08:27
Speaker
So, yes, cool. Thank you for sharing. The other question that I always ask all of my guests, of course, this is tea break time travel. We will be travelling back in time today. But today we have a set course, but if you could travel back in time to anywhere in history, where would you go or when would you go, I should say, and why?
00:08:43
Speaker
I'm thinking because we're talking about the Sutton Hoo helmet, it'd be great to actually go back in time and see what was happening, the atmosphere of how the locals were feeling prior to this individual who was laid to rest.
00:08:58
Speaker
actually, I want to see who this person was. So maybe a bit further back in time, give me about at least one year, no, no, six months, six months before, no, I'm actually scared of moving six months, I'll probably die. Let's try like a week. No, no, no, they'll probably be dying as well.
00:09:13
Speaker
The second that they die, go and quickly say, who are you? Yeah, who are you? Where do you come from? What life lessons could you give? You'll be great to document this person because their burial, as we will discuss in this episode, is just so fascinating. And I think actually, I think for the fact that we're talking about this, I'd love to go back in time and see what was happening, how this ship burial was even done, like how they maneuvered it, how they built the ship, obviously how they built the ship.
00:09:41
Speaker
You know, I want to see everything about this burial site. So before like six months? I'm kind of worried to go that far back in time, though, because I honestly think I would die. I don't think I could survive. Well, if we did it as sort of a fly on the wall type thing, like we go in our little bubble, we don't actually interact. Or would you want to interact?
00:10:01
Speaker
Oh, this is a hard one. Okay. Have you seen, have you read the book? What is that book called? Where it's about like witches and vampires? Discovery of witches? Yes, that's the one. I've actually literally just started reading the first one. So no spoilers. Oh, okay. Damn it. I can't
00:10:16
Speaker
Well, I do know already that the second one is set in the Elizabethan era, so I imagine. That's true. But how she's able to jump back and forth, you know, not really jump, but actually, you know what, she lives. OK, I can't I can't I can't say it now. Kind of like anyone who's read the book, kind of like that, I wouldn't mind. But even that is quite close and personal. I like the idea of jumping in and out when I want to. So I'm safe. Maybe have like a magic ring or talk or something. And I just like rub it and then I'm back. Back home.
00:10:45
Speaker
just hope that the magic doesn't wear out in an awkward moment. Okay, well, it is convenient that you said you wanted to go back that far.
Sutton Hoo Helmet Intro
00:10:56
Speaker
We're not going back well, maybe we're going back, we're keeping it very vague. Because before we talk a little bit more about, yes, indeed, the Sudden Hooperial, it's been teased already. Let's first journey back to the early 7th century.
00:11:07
Speaker
Very vague, in what we now call England. It's a sunny day, but the air above the watching crowd is summer, all eyes on the huge 27-metre-long ship that lies before them, still being filled with cases of gold jewellery, bags of rubies, stacks of silver plates. At last, the stackers move aside to make room for four men carrying a stretcher, on which lies a richly dressed figure, hands clasped over their chest, eyes closed.
00:11:31
Speaker
If possible, the hush falls even more, the crowd watching in silent respect as the figure is manoeuvred into the central chamber of the ship. On their right-hand side is Layne's sword and a selection of spears. On their left, a beautifully decorated helmet is wrapped carefully in a cloth before being set gently down.
00:11:47
Speaker
It takes a long time for the burial mound to be built over this ship, even longer before the weight of the mound eventually crushes the central chamber, so that when it is finally excavated in 1939, all that is left of that wonderful helmet are hundreds of rusted fragments. So indeed, today we'll be looking at the Sutton Hoo helmet, but also the rest of the burial in general. And we'll get into the details very soon. But first of all, let's have a very quick break.
00:12:14
Speaker
Welcome back, everyone. So we are going to have a look, as always, at the most asked questions of the internet, all about the Sutton Hoo helmet specifically. I was going to do it about the Sutton Hoo burial, but I thought, let's get specific. Let's talk about the Sutton Hoo helmet.
Helmet Design and Significance
00:12:28
Speaker
And actually, there's a surprising amount of questions about this, probably thanks to the film The Dig. I guess that sort of garnered interest in this burial and this object. So the first question that always came up is, what is the Sutton Hoo helmet made of? Can you enlighten us, Tash?
00:12:43
Speaker
Yes, so I do love this lesson here, so I'm very excited about this. I'll try to be as concise as possible for you listeners out there. I want you to imagine that the helmet is primarily made of iron, but what really sets it apart are these decorative elements. It's adorned with panels of tinned copper alloy sheeting, which are then stamped with these intricate patterns, which include animal interlaced and warrior motifs.
00:13:13
Speaker
But for me, it's those motives that are fascinating. There's the Dancing Warrior and the Fallen Warrior scenes, which are so vivid. Then there's this crest running over the top of the helmet, which is made of iron with these gilt animal terminals. And those animals even have garnet eyes.
00:13:34
Speaker
Just imagine the beauty it must have had in its actual state, which you do see in a reconstruction piece in the British Museum, I think it's in Gallery 41.
00:13:44
Speaker
I was about to say, I thought that was a reconstruction, because I remember when I was younger, I always thought that was the original. I was thinking, oh my goodness, that's so well. Yes, I know. It's a funny story. I was recently at the British Museum showing some friends, the best bits, had 30 minutes, and I was explaining this last new helmet, and they were looking at the real one. It's my mistake that I was explaining it, and they're looking, and they're just like, how does this survive? I'm like, what? Then it was my husband who was like, no, no, it's this one.
00:14:10
Speaker
I was just like, I went into the zone of explaining significance. I just went in and I was like, no, no, no, you're looking at the wrong thing. It's this one on the right. And then they're like, oh. Yeah, they're glued onto this shell of what the hell it would have looked like. Which also, I mean, God, if it's made of iron, that must be so heavy as well.
00:14:31
Speaker
Yeah, I can't, I mean, I've tried on Roman reconstruction helmets. So I can only imagine how that would have felt. But it's just, oh, wow. And the parcel guilt features, especially around the nose and the mouthpiece. The fact that it's a helmet and a face, you know, it's face covering, you're completely covered, 360, you know, you're protected. So it's just, you can just imagine like, this was not worn by your average warrior.
00:14:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, something very interesting. It's funny, actually, when you were talking about warrior, the different warrior pose, I did some yoga this morning. It was all, you know, peaceful warrior.
00:15:08
Speaker
basically just yoga poses on the helmet. Indeed, of course, very regal, very aggressive, I shouldn't be talking about like that. And so that leads actually very nicely into the second question, which was, what was the Sutton Who helmet used for? Because I can imagine that if it's something that intricately decorated, surely it wasn't actually functional? Or do you think it might have been functional?
00:15:34
Speaker
Oh, there's so many debates around this. And there's a great discussion piece by Dr. Sue Brunning, who is the curator at the British Museum. So she oversees the Sutton Hoo. And if you go onto YouTube, please, I recommend watching Curator's Corner with Dr. Sue Brunning, because it's like one of my favorite videos by her explaining some of the Sutton Hoo artifacts, which includes the sword, as well as the helmets in question.
00:15:59
Speaker
And she does a great blog, by the way, that covers the Netflix, the dig versus reality. And I think that's brilliant. I mean, yeah, loads of us made YouTube videos at the time explaining it, but of course, I mean, she is the expert. I mean, she literally oversees at the British Museum. So watch that if you've got 15 minutes, you know?
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, so there is speculation around the helmet because it is found amongst grave goods, burial sites. Was it ceremonial rather than combat? I think so. The elaborate design, the craftsmanship, it suggests it was meant to signal my status and power.
00:16:39
Speaker
perhaps worn by a king or high-ranking warrior during important events or rituals maybe. You know, you always see those kind of films and yeah, rituals, actually when the archaeologist doesn't know it's rituals and maybe it is in this case as well. I mean, because you know, it's a helmet that
00:16:57
Speaker
does, as I said earlier, it covers its 360. So it could offer protection. But it's the fact that as you said, the intricate decoration and symbolism points to its role, I would say maybe displaying authority lineage, it connects the wearer both to this like earthly kingdom and the divine. So maybe more
00:17:18
Speaker
maybe more ritual side, ceremonial purpose, I think. Yeah. I could be wrong. I mean, that's what makes it time travel, right? Exactly. Yeah, because maybe everyone was wearing these, you know, it was just like, well, who doesn't have a garnet and crusted iron helmet these days?
00:17:35
Speaker
You mentioned as well, it probably was worn by someone important, so that was indeed one of the other questions, was who wore the Sutton Hoo helmet, but maybe we'll get into that a little bit further later. One of the questions that actually I was surprised that it came up so often, but I guess maybe because of the film The Dig, one of the questions that came up was, why is the Sutton Hoo helmet so important?
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, so the Sutton Hoo helmet is one of four known in the archaeological record in England from the early medieval period. Now, its discovery at Sutton Hoo is among one of the most spectacular archaeological finds in the UK. And that's for the time period, I would say, because obviously this is all personal preference.
00:18:12
Speaker
So for that time period, I would say this ship burial is just by itself like, wow, honestly, wow. So the helmet with its intricate designs and craftsmanship, I would say challenges the outdated notion of the Dark Ages, quote unquote, which at the time was this, you know, cultural decline, and they saw that time period as being quite literally Dark Ages. So I think this discovery in itself changed the perception of the medieval era.
00:18:40
Speaker
So I think that in itself is really really significant and we kind of need to know in itself and maybe that's why I got so much media attention.
00:18:49
Speaker
Which, was it at the time people already were like, oh, actually, this is from this time period? Or do they not believe it was from that time period? Like, how did that go about in terms of kind of the acceptance of that new idea? Because I can imagine it was quite a difficult pill to swallow for some people to admit. Oh, actually, the Middle Ages might have not been quite so dark as we thought they were. I think if I remember correctly, there were some, was it journals or there's some
00:19:16
Speaker
was like some riffs between the archaeologists, I think they were from the British Museum actually, or the local museums, versus the archaeologists on site excavating. When the archaeologists on site were saying, look, this is something I think from this time period. And everyone's like, no, no way. Don't be ridiculous. What are you saying? And you're finding, you know,
00:19:38
Speaker
ironed and it's shiny, that obviously would have been that shiny. But you know, you're finding all these artifacts. Bearing in mind, actually, the artifacts recovered on the site were not really looked at until later on, because obviously, World War Two.
00:19:54
Speaker
That's why we really only have a full understanding of the artifacts and the significance of the burials later on in time. So, you know, they're talking about it in the press saying that there is this amazing discovery, but I would say the significance of it wasn't really fully understood until the artifacts themselves were actually looked at by specialist teams, which were, I think, in the fifties or fifties. It was post-World War II that these artifacts were really studied further.
00:20:24
Speaker
I think it was it was a long time coming and one of the many archaeological discoveries that changed the perception of what medieval England was. Yeah, which is, I mean, yeah, pretty radical radical. It was. But, you know, it's not. Yeah, as I said, so it wasn't just about the helmet. It's what it represented. So, you know, the wealth, the artistry, the societal structures of the Anglo-Saxons. So for many, it gave a glimpse into the world that
00:20:54
Speaker
what we perceive as valuing heroism, craftsmanship and status.
Preservation Challenges
00:21:01
Speaker
I would think it's this tangible connection to a past, thanks to this helmet and the other artefacts found with it.
00:21:09
Speaker
that it isn't as lost to history as we might have thought. And that it's really a reminder, as I said again, it's this reminder of complexity and richness of the societies that came before us, and how artifacts like the Sutton Hoo helmet can tell stories, not just of individuals, but of entire cultures.
00:21:31
Speaker
And because you mentioned that the Sutton Hoo helmet is just one of four found, so drawing on your expertise as a commercial archaeologist in terms of knowing a lot of different ground types and everything. Obviously with metal, do you think that there might have been more potential of these kind of excavations and either we haven't found them yet or they just haven't preserved well? Because if I
00:21:50
Speaker
I remember from the film, which shows how much I know about this site, for example, the boat wasn't there anymore, it was just kind of the outline of the planks sort of thing, like the preservation of all the objects was incredible, but there was also a lot that wasn't preserved. Is there something in the particular soil types in that region that would enable it to be preserved more so in other regions? Do you know?
00:22:11
Speaker
If memory serves the geology of that area where the burial mound was found, it was quite close to the river. Hence how they were able to bring the boat and create this mound. So water would have been close enough. Logistically, how the hell did they get this boat here?
00:22:28
Speaker
Yes. You know, there's a river nearby its water source, so it's going to be a bit more waterlogged or water rich, I would say the soils are, which is probably why this sort of ghost shell of the outline of the ship survived. Now, as you said, it's all about the acidity. Is that the correct way? Acidity or alkaline levels in the soils that help us determine what the hell we're looking at. You know, there's some sites that are just amazing and you've got this unbelievable wood preservation.
00:22:58
Speaker
I'm just thinking now I've got a glimpse in my head of a site we did in Oxford in the town centre. Massive, massive site and the wood preservation is the best I've ever seen. So good that we were even getting leather shoes just like Vindalander. That's when you know it's good. It's those good beautiful rich soils that are able to hold these artifacts and not deteriorate them. They don't decompose because it's all organic matter.
00:23:21
Speaker
But when it comes to iron, copper, these metals, these are harder to break down. So there's other factors involved into how it can degradate. As you mentioned before, the helmet was in pieces.
00:23:39
Speaker
small pieces that took like 25 years for them to piece it together. And who knows if they've really got it in the right place. That's a good point. What if it's actually a complete... What if what we've described as amazing and fantastic is not it at all? Exactly. Who knows? Oh, wow.
00:23:55
Speaker
I mean, it took me like 25 years, so it should be okay, hopefully. Yeah, you'd hope. You'd hope. But I mean, I guess it's the most realistic formation. I mean, I'm not a conservator, but I'm assuming it. There's a lot of things that go into play to recreate something. But again, it's all artistic license in itself with what they perceive.
00:24:15
Speaker
I mean, is this then a reconstruction that happened kind of directly after it was, well, or not even directly after it was excavated? Because as you said, there was a war, but has it been reassessed? If I remember correctly, it was first constructed and then they disagreed and then later on it was dismantled and recreated, if I remember correctly. And that's why it's kind of over a 25-year period that is kind of looked at
00:24:41
Speaker
you know, back and forth, where they get it to where it is today, what we see. Which is important, right? It is, yeah, it is. I mean, obviously time, money, skills, and you know, the reconstructed helmet I think was made by the Royal Armour.
00:24:55
Speaker
So obviously that's artistic license in itself, using other sources to kind of create what they think that they may have, like the motifs that we see. Obviously from other, inspired by other reliefs in other settings. But no, it is funny to think that maybe it's completely...
00:25:17
Speaker
Well, you know, in a way that's, is that not when we excavate something and we interpret it, it's an interpretation, but where does that interpretation and that knowledge come
Cultural Implications of Sutton Hoo
00:25:26
Speaker
from? It's that it's collective as well as individual memories and associations and scientific understanding. But it's this collection of all this data where we're able to say, this is what's happening. You know, we're kind of 80% sure, because you can't be 100% sure of anything, especially when you're dealing with the past.
00:25:44
Speaker
I can still remember, I'm so, so reluctant in any of my writing now to write something like, we know this because we're like, but we don't, we can't know it. It's like, wait, this is about something different. Possibly, potentially suggest, I think is the most word. I'm just hedging all my bets here.
00:26:05
Speaker
I feel like we should create like a little archaeologist guide to trying to describe something without, you know, shooting yourself in the foot. Yeah. I'm giving an actual like solid conclusion. And I think that that's, I don't know, I personally think that that's a really great way to look at the world in general, though, to not just see it in black and white. And then you see, right, there's, there's a lot of nuances in lots of different things. And actually, it is all based on your own interpretation.
00:26:30
Speaker
So true. It's like, if you want to get really for the soft corn off key, you know, what is history? What is the past? Does the past happen from a moment ago or is the past a hundred years ago? So, I mean, it's all those kind of deep questions sometimes.
00:26:47
Speaker
Well, but even like you say, this Sutton Hoo burial, it was an important burial because it made historians completely reassess their whole understanding of history. So what if something else happens? In the next 10 years, we have another kind of site which completely makes us rethink or reinterpret.
00:27:05
Speaker
a period of history or a culture or something like that. I think that's the beauty of it really. That's the beauty of archaeological excavation and people looking even in the archives and rediscovering books that they thought were lost, like the Book of Hours of what was this thing?
00:27:20
Speaker
one of the, I think it was in the Tudor period, I've forgotten already, to do in Tudor history. So not really my forte, but there's a painting with this book and they found the book in, I think in Oxford library. So it was also hundreds of years, I think like 400 years it was lost. So, you know, discoveries can be found everywhere.
00:27:39
Speaker
Well, even like you mentioned, the new new techniques, we've just finished reading for the book club, the archaeo book club thing, we've finished reading Kindred by Rebecca Rock Sykes. And it was really interesting because she was talking about how, you know, indeed, so many perceptions that were had of the Neanderthals, and then you had all these different techniques that have been used that actually then give a whole other picture. So it's the same material that's being looked at, but just in a different way as well, which is also really interesting. So many different things to me.
00:28:05
Speaker
to be looked at anyway, got slightly off piste, sorry. But I do think that this sort of this burial almost represents that idea in a way is what you were saying before as well.
00:28:16
Speaker
All about perception, and you're right, this is a really significant object that not only shows the significant importance of the leader who was buried, who was laid to rest in this beautiful earth mound, but it's also more, as you said, the nuances around how we interpret the past.
00:28:36
Speaker
And just sort of a final, I guess, thing about the burial itself then, because the helmet itself is amazing. But of course, there's so many other incredible things in this burial. And am I right in thinking that there's also some things that come from surprisingly far away?
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, if I remember correctly, there's like rubies from Sri Lanka. Right? I thought I read that somewhere. It's unbelievable when you look at, it's actually, I remember when I was in the research for my overview of Netflix The Dig and the real archaeology behind it. And I remember thinking like, wow, like this shows trade interaction with other cultures around the world. And it's a fantastic example of
00:29:20
Speaker
of that, really, through these artifacts, through these objects, which we know did not originate in Europe at the time. They're from further afield. And having that in this place, you know, of all places, like you would not expect that now, because today's societies is, you know, London-centric. It's basically south of England. Back then, it was a completely different game. Like, you know, England or the UK was divided in a different way.
00:29:47
Speaker
So the way trade interaction was happening were with different kingdoms effectively. So I think that in itself is just like, wow, it's truly unbelievable. Yeah. So you had like the silver, bold and spoons from the Byzantine, and then you've got this gold dress accessory sets
Natasha's Media Transition
00:30:02
Speaker
with Sri Lankan garnets. So yeah, it was garnets, not rubies. And that's, you know, some of over like 250 artifacts that we, that we know were recovered. I bet there were more, they just were not retrieved.
00:30:14
Speaker
Right. Yeah, of course. Or maybe, yeah, got lost during excavation or post excavation. Exactly. It happens. You know, bearing in mind, practices that we have now were not adopted back then. And every year, every decade, archaeological excavations and post excavation techniques
00:30:31
Speaker
changes and it evolves and it becomes better. We are less likely to miss these minute details, like very small artifacts. It's quite hard to, it is easy to miss sometimes. If you're not sieving through the soils that are taken up with these said artifacts, you're very likely to, obviously as well back then, no metal detectors to just give like a once-over to make sure you're not missing any metal objects. So yeah.
00:30:55
Speaker
And I guess that things like the helmet would have probably still been kind of recognisable as something interesting, so that's why they kept it. But there might have been, I guess, more things that weren't considered interesting, or they weren't considered as... You know exactly what is interesting. Yeah.
00:31:11
Speaker
That in itself, like you actually see that in the archaeological record that the archaeologists, depending where they are in the world, this is like literally worldwide information is that you see in archaeological records, like 30, 40 years ago, you can see how they interpret information and what they deem as important to record to actually document on a piece of paper versus what is not. And you see gaps, you see these anomalies and you start to see these patterns of, okay, this is not so difficult for them. Yeah.
00:31:39
Speaker
We see that in so many different types of archaeological situations. Which then also has such a big effect on current archaeological things. I always try to tell people, be really careful, check what people are citing and check what people's sources are. Because if people are saying, oh yes, and look, this has been important for 50 or 100 or 1000 years or whatever, and then you're like, yes, but if you're citing these antiquarian interpretations, those interpretations were very
00:32:03
Speaker
Yeah, limited. It makes me question how even I have in the past documented, recorded something that I have seen because we do not deem certain artifacts as significant. We just drop them on a piece of paper. We don't even keep them anymore because we have such a large quantity of these said objects.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah. If you were to speak to someone in America, Australia, they're keeping every single part of this post-medieval material. Right. Yeah. But for us, we literally like, okay, we found stoneware bottle. We just write it. We might sample one or two that are different. So we'll just take samples of them, but we wouldn't keep all of it. Right. We may document how many we have. We could take some measurements on site, but generally speaking, you know, the post-ex team who are in the office, they will tell us, no, we don't need it. Or yes, we need this.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah. They may look at it, they may document it, and then they have to discard it afterwards. Not everything is saved because there's not enough space. This is the thing, right? I mean, there's no possible way that we could save every single thing from Antarctica history or anything. No, it's not. And we have an abundance of archaeological material in the UK. So it's making that call. And there's so many issues you'll see in the news where we are having storage issues and archive issues.
00:33:14
Speaker
Yeah, so maybe someone in the past didn't think that helmets were important, so they just chucked out a bunch of... Exactly, they're like, they don't need this. You know, maybe they weren't like the Romans who, you know, if someone had fallen, they would keep the armour. That's where all the money is, right? That's why it's so rare to find them buried.
00:33:32
Speaker
I see. Yeah, they keep them. That's what the money is. They need that, you know? That soldier, that sword costs. Okay, well, we're going to have another quick break, give people a chance to top up their tea, but we'll be back very soon with more.
00:33:52
Speaker
Welcome back, everyone. I hope that your tea has been topped up maybe with some lovely, fragrant Earl Grey, which is apparently a lot sweeter than English breakfast, who knew? So thank you so, so much, Tess, for telling us all about the wonderful Sutton Hoo helmet and burial. And we did get quite philosophical in the end as well. But we already introduced your work a little bit in the first section of this episode. But maybe we can go to a little bit more detail now, because as well as doing commercial archaeology, you, of course, are a presenter, a public historian, as you as you quoted at the beginning,
00:34:21
Speaker
So how did that first come about? How did you first get into doing TV work, other forms of media outreach? Will I regret calling myself a public historian now?
00:34:33
Speaker
This is the thing, it's so great what you said there is that TV work, you know, it's a different medium in itself. You have to be adaptable to be able to, to get the work effectively. So I started, I think my first job was actually in Ukraine. I was doing a lot of translating work from Russian and Ukrainian to English.
00:34:56
Speaker
And that's where, you know, that was through my husband who had a friend in Ukraine at the time who worked in production. And I was visiting him quite often and I was getting like, just something to do, to learn and something more fun. Cause we were thinking of, I lived in Ukraine for a little bit.
00:35:14
Speaker
And it became one of my jobs. And then when I was in between coming back, you know, digging in London, I'd use all my toll time. So time accrued from traveling and all my annual leave would fly over to Ukraine, see my husband, and then do this TV work. So that was from 2016.
00:35:34
Speaker
And I was doing, 2016 or 2017, I started doing the sort of dubbing, voice over work. And then from that, that transpired into them saying, you know, do you want to try and do some stuff for TV or for our online channels? And I'm like, okay, let's try this.
00:35:53
Speaker
That's really where I got my skills started to develop. In UK, USA media, the first real kind of opportunity fell in 2019 when I was able to fly to Egypt to do a show called the Unexplained and Unexplored. Some amazing explorers who were travelling all over the world to try and
00:36:23
Speaker
answer these legends of where these artifacts were. And I was on the episode, I think, where they're looking for the Ark of Covenant. You know, it was good fun. Properly the other Jones style. Yeah, it was fun. And they were so great just to chat to in general, such a lovely team to work with. And that was my first, that was my first TV experience. I'm thinking, oh my goodness, like, this is quite scary. I've been flown to Egypt to talk about, you know,
00:36:48
Speaker
was I talking about? I was talking, I forgot what I was talking about, but what it was that I had done some research on prior because I'd worked in Egypt as well.
00:36:57
Speaker
And yeah, so I was able to talk about this. I'm very rounded. Like I have to, honestly, when I say I've traveled all over the world, I really have to hurt. So yeah, my first TV job was there and that was with Discovery and Science Channel.
Media Portrayal Challenges
00:37:10
Speaker
From that, I started doing panel TV shows, which is where you're a talking hedge. You're one of many people in the studio explaining a story. And that's why I say I'm sometimes like a public historian or a public archeologist, of course, first and foremost.
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah. Where I'm a part of many people explaining, generally speaking, the mysteries, the unexplored answers for an artefact or a civilisation. They always have mysteries in the title, but that's just because... Of course. I use that a lot as well. One of my things, mysterious object, we have no idea what
00:37:47
Speaker
It's useful. We kind of do, but you know. You always got to start it off like that, don't you? You start off like, oh, what is this? You know, you question it and then you get into the nitty gritty. So all those TV shows have that format where you're questioning at the beginning, then you start to answer. And there's a group of you who are doing that. You don't know each other effectively because you're all different expertise. You know, you have an author, just an engineer, an architect. Like, you know, it depends what what you're talking about, what the subject of the show is. And your job is to explain from your perspective
00:38:17
Speaker
the said object in question. Which I guess that also must have been that you had to have an extremely broad knowledge base. So much research, honestly. Like, so you're filming, so when I say with these panel shows, sometimes you're doing six episodes to eight episodes in one day. So it's a 12 hour shoot. And, you know, just like this dark room, just lights on you, you're filmed in a certain way. So you've got this bright light and then you've got a producer just asking you questions.
00:38:46
Speaker
about said subject. Now, prior to the interview, you already know the subjects and what they want you to cover. So it helps with the research. Sometimes they send you their research notes.
00:39:01
Speaker
But obviously, depending if you've worked with a producer or not, you want to fact check every single thing that they've said, which they're happy with you doing as well. And then once you build a really good rapport with these production companies, it becomes a bit easier because then you know how they work and you're like, oh, okay, they've really researched this. I don't have to worry too much. Yeah, I can trust them if sometimes when you're talking, they might say, oh, do you think you could say this on this hint towards that? And sometimes you do, sometimes you don't want to. It's your choice.
00:39:28
Speaker
I was going to ask about that actually, whether that's happened to you before, especially with these sort of programs that are almost slightly on the edge of the sooner, you know, the kind of really going through the thing. Well, this is the thing. So all those shows start with that. And it's really difficult, especially when you know how it's going to be edited.
00:39:49
Speaker
So you know that at the beginning they're going to tease it in this way, and then they'll give you an opportunity to explain it, generally speaking. So even if you tease in this sort of...
00:40:01
Speaker
Oh, this mystery looks so unlike anything we've seen before. Who could have made this? They might cut that and put that in the trailer in the beginning. You also have opportunity later on to dive into it and say, actually, you know, at first glance, we think it's this. But really, when you look into it, it's not mystery. We can know these people made it using these tools. We have these objects in the archaeological record. So there are times when you have to tease that. And it's really hard when there's ones that are kind of based on this. How to say this politely?
00:40:31
Speaker
You know when, so I've recently, I've done, the show hasn't aired yet. And there's one that kind of looks at the aliens and the UFO speculation, more UFO speculation. And what I actually really found interesting about the show when they pitched it to me, I've worked with this production company on maybe four or five different shows over the last four years. So I know them really well.
00:40:59
Speaker
and i had a chat with them when they when they pitched to me i said like i've read this i need to see your notes i want to see where you're going with it like i need to see everything and i understood actually what they're doing is in because i said to them like i don't want to like upset people who really believe in this stuff like it's not because these people who really do believe in it and i've met them and they're their fanatics but
00:41:19
Speaker
That's their world, right? They really believe in UFO sightings in Falkirk, which I didn't realise is like the hotspot in Europe for these sightings. And they really, really believe in it. So you can't just be like, ah, dismiss them straight away, because that hurts them.
00:41:35
Speaker
They're offended. They're upset. They're defensive. Yeah. So sometimes there's a way of doing what you acknowledge, but that's what they think. And then what I loved about the show was then we actually talk about, okay, this is why we think people are seeing this because we have these, you know, three airports are really close by. You get a lot of air traffic in this region and it's continuous, you know, then we've got military bases nearby as well. So all these factors could lead to why people have these so-called sightings.
00:42:04
Speaker
And it's just putting a bit of another perspective on why these people think that without offending them, you know, because it's not nice to do that. And I think that that's a really interesting point as well, because I can remember when a certain Netflix alleged documentary, even though it definitely wasn't a documentary,
00:42:21
Speaker
came out, and there was a lot of lashback from it in the archaeological community. But then, indeed, I remember having a whole discussion about it with some of my colleagues, and some of them were pointing out, but that's exactly the wrong approach to take. Because if you just say, no, this is all wrong, it's all false, then you're just playing into the kind of
00:42:37
Speaker
into the narrative that we have been painted by popular pseudoscientists. Exactly, yeah. So I think that's a really good point you make, that it needs to be acknowledged, but then approached in a kind of different way. Everything's interpretation. Yeah, as we said. Yeah, it's interpretation. We have scientific backing, which is, again, a number of people
00:43:00
Speaker
supporting it, right? When you put an article in for a journal, it's peer reviewed. So that's the process and the issue we have with these two designers is that their research is not peer reviewed. But that's not said publicly, people are just bashing them saying, no, you're wrong. So that's not helpful at all to all those people who listen to the podcast as well.
00:43:19
Speaker
I've had family friends come up to me and be like, oh yeah, listen to this podcast with them. And we're being vague about this on purpose, but I hope you know who we're talking about. I'm listening to this podcast. I've obviously got millions of hits. I'm going to buy the book. And I said, look, you can buy the book.
00:43:34
Speaker
I could look if you wanted, you can, but I've spoken to friends who have really said that it's actually really historically inaccurate and archeologically inaccurate. And it's just what you have to understand is the thing that we must acknowledge is that these pseudoscientists are brilliant storytellers. They're so good.
00:43:51
Speaker
They're so good. And this is something we as profession need to acknowledge and say, what do we need to do to be better so that the public listen to what we're saying and enjoys the story of how we tell the tales of the past and that we are using it from a more structured, informed approach. So it's about storytelling more than anything else, which is why these TV shows
00:44:13
Speaker
do so well because they first get the mystery, you're dangling a toy in front of the cat, then you bring them in, reel them in, and then you start to give them the fat slowly. And then we'll say, oh wow, that's so interesting. I mean, just doing it in that storytelling way.
00:44:30
Speaker
I'd be interested to hear that. I think I can guess what your answer would be, but just to say, because one of the other questions that came up when all of this stuff came about is people were asking, but as professional archaeologists, should we actually engage with this material, not necessarily in the negative way, but in such a productive way, or should we just ignore it? Surely engaging with it is actually giving it a lot more publicity. I'm curious what your opinion on that is.
00:44:57
Speaker
The Archaeology community is small, so any input would be better than nothing. However, the input we see is nearly always just bashing them for basically being idiots. That's what you see when you read it. People are not, they're so direct where they're like, this person is talking nonsense that I don't think it works. It's counteractive. And it's just not
00:45:22
Speaker
That's why I don't like Twitter. And luckily now Twitter is kind of like gone. But when I used to just read, I just can't deal with this. It's just negative vibes. So people are just nasty. And they're just happy to say this out outright. And you're hurting a lot of people's feelings in the way. And people are going to distrust archeologists even more so and think that we're gatekeeping because we're not. People don't understand how long it takes for research to be published. Five years, 10 years, 20 years.
00:45:47
Speaker
You know? A hundred years. Like, it could take bloody ages for something to be published. What happens in between and then you have to... Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, I think trust needs to be built between the public and they have this issue when you have people given a platform who have a large audience who listens to them and the said person is saying, Archaeologists don't like me and our theories. You have to have then Archaeologists come out and say,
00:46:15
Speaker
that we don't like you, is that there's no substance behind what you are saying. Where is the proof? Because for something to be pseudo, there's no evidence exactly. That's all it is. That's all it comes down to. And even that in itself people don't get sometimes.
00:46:33
Speaker
because they think there is evidence, but it's like, you're like, no, no, no, this is also interpretation. This isn't just... But it's interpretation with zero facts or it's interpretation with very little scope of maybe other settlements that also have similar, a similar sort of setup where you could kind of say, okay, so if they made it like this and we've got the settlement over here that did something similar, let's look at both. There's none of that.
00:47:01
Speaker
One final question before we wrap up is if, for example, other archaeologists might be listening in and thinking, okay, well, I do want to try and engage and become a bit more involved with popular media outreach in that respect, because I do know a lot of people do find it hard to think even where to start, or how to engage with non-archaeological communities in that way. What would be your advice for those first steps in getting started with
Engaging the Public with Archaeology
00:47:28
Speaker
that kind of thing?
00:47:28
Speaker
In 2020, I had the opportunity to work on The Great British Dig. We're four seasons in now. That started filming during the pandemic, so 2020, and the reason why I got that role, or the job, because I'm just being myself, I don't know, the reason why I got, how I got that job was because they needed a field archaeologist, and I was a Comanche field archaeologist at the time.
00:47:51
Speaker
And I was online, very active, talking about commercial field archaeology, as well as interviewing archaeologists around the world on my YouTube live show, Archaeologists in Quarantine. So I had quite a large social media presence. So if I remember correctly, I had like four different members of the team reach out to me in the space of a week.
00:48:10
Speaker
through all my different social media platforms and email because they had all found me in different ways. So that's definitely something to factor in as well. But the reason why I got that role was because of my actual working background and the other archaeologists weren't there as well as the archaeological consultants. They knew of me anyway for some of the work that I had done. So it was not only having the social media presence but also having the the work working presence, professional presence at the time because I think I was doing
00:48:38
Speaker
the co-workers working at Westminster Abbey at the time when they were doing the interviews and when I was between filming because you know we'd film one week and then one week off and I'd be at work back on site digging so yeah it was intense but good fun. See I think it comes down to where you what your career to go or what you're passionate about so for me when I did archaeology I wanted to find a way to get
00:49:03
Speaker
anyone and everyone to interact with the past in a way that was easy for them to understand, get rid of the academic jargon. And that was always a passion for me. So any opportunity as a commercial archaeologist to work on these community projects is always something I put myself forward for. And then I was known in every company, basically, that I would be the one, I'd be more than happy to be on the community projects.
00:49:26
Speaker
Honestly, that is literally what happened at one point. I wouldn't even know about it, and I'll just hear this phrase, and I'm like, what am I doing now? I'm like, I'm wicked, you know? And I get to talk to the public about this. And it's literally those skills you need to get. So if you work in the commercial sector, which is developer-led projects where the archaeology has to be done apart of planning permission,
00:49:45
Speaker
if you had the opportunity to do community projects, do it, because that's where you will learn how to speak to individuals and who you're speaking to. You will have to change the way you convey the information. You know, if you're speaking to a seven year old versus an 80 year old, you have to speak in a different way. And that's where TV comes in and people will scrutinize sometimes the great British dig because they think we oversimplify something. But what they don't understand is the point of the show is for individuals to be introduced into archaeology and to be inspired to read more.
00:50:15
Speaker
And, you know, it's only 45 minutes or something, you know, to summarize a whole week's dig. And it's all about community members kind of getting involved. So it's not really oversimplification sometimes, you just need to know how to convey the information in a certain amount of time and be concise. So those are the skills you need to gain, learn how to speak to people,
00:50:34
Speaker
in a way that's not degrading in any way. I know that's a really weird thing to say, but people do that. They really do speak down and they don't mean to. This is the thing most people who do that don't mean to when they start to explain something, but they do. And that's because when you go to a conference, you're seeing the same people over and over again. So you learn how to convey the information in a way that's for like-minded individuals who have similar research.
00:51:00
Speaker
interests as yourself or literally in the same discipline, same sub-discipline of another sub-discipline, right? You have your own language in itself. So it's been able to deconstruct that for the public masses. That's why social media is so good because you're able to learn for yourself how to convey that information and what works for you and what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy doing. So especially now, everything has changed now with social media.
00:51:24
Speaker
And I would say now social media is really the best place to gain those skills, put yourself out there because no one's going to give you a job, you know, just because you're like, Oh, I want to be a presenter. It's not how it works anymore. Anyway, you know, you really have to train. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there are still people who like have family links or friends links. Of course, you're always going to get that, especially in the,
00:51:47
Speaker
the main production houses but for a lot of the panel shows and things like that they're looking for people who generally specialize in something but also put themselves out there online because they want to see who this person is because you know
00:52:02
Speaker
I should say when you get, cause this is kind of like a circle again, but when you get cast for a show, they've really kind of Googled who you are and they're seeing the different types of content. If there is about you or if you specialize in something that they need for a show, that's how you kind of pop up on there on their search. And you know, you have like a zoom call with the.
00:52:22
Speaker
the casting team and that's it. They might ask you some questions and then that's it. And then again, they're going to use your reference from what you have online to see, okay, who is this person? A sort of strong background in that already or a strong presence online and you've shown that you've tried to take the effort to get those skills then.
00:52:40
Speaker
Yeah, because, you know, as you want to know Matilda, like the more content we make, the more podcasts you do, the interviewing techniques you learn as you do it and you become better and you know how to steer conversation. Like how many times did I go waffle on? Because it's not my podcast. It was my podcast. I would have to be like, you know, tuned in and like, make sure it stays in, but it's not my one. So it's fine.
00:53:07
Speaker
But anyway, if you want to do BT representing our work in TV, I would say start with social media and go from there now, because that's kind of the way in. Everything's completely changed in the last few years. People who are on social media now, I've seen, bearing in mind, as I said, I've worked in TV. I've had experience of it since 2016, 2017 time as like my kind of side hustle.
00:53:31
Speaker
what's been a full-time commercial archaeologist. I've seen how it's changed in the last two years since the pandemic. People who have social media presence are getting more work than people who are experts in the said field, who would be good to even convey that information if they have the opportunity. They're just not online, they're just not making the content. So these social media individuals
00:53:53
Speaker
are getting the work and they are not necessarily equipped. They're not equipped. You know, they're just reading off the random script that they've Googled and that's it. However, and I'm not, that's quite bad maybe for me to say it that way, but it's true. Generally speaking, there's a lot of individuals who do that. Of course, there's other individuals who make these amazing content and they have great, you know. They do proper research. They put the sources in their captions. I'll be honest, I don't always put the sources in my captions.
00:54:20
Speaker
But the point is, I mean, I make mistakes, you know, everyone makes mistakes. But there are people who literally have no archaeology background, history background, and they're getting the platform because, sorry, they're getting the opportunities because they have the platform. So archaeologists, historians, anyone who specialises in something out there who wants to convey this information, don't be annoyed by people you see online conveying something in popular media if you are not online doing it yourself.
00:54:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that's very, very good advice. And indeed, we do actually have to have to wrap up because it's getting towards the end of our tea break. But thank you so, so much for joining me today, Tash. I really, really appreciated you taking the time out to come and speak to me today. Of course, any time.
00:55:03
Speaker
And if anyone wants to find out more about Tash's work and projects, the Sudden Who helmet and burial, any of the other things we've talked about today, check out the show notes on the podcast homepage. If there's something by the way you ever think I've missed, feel free to get in contact and let me know and I can always add things later as well. So I hope that you enjoyed our journey today.
00:55:20
Speaker
If, by the way, you fancy helping to support this show and all of the other amazing series that form the Archaeology Podcast Network, because we always do try to do proper research and make sure that we present valid and relevant information to the public, as well as being informative and entertaining, you can become an APM member.
00:55:36
Speaker
And that helps us to create even more free amazing content. We'll also have exclusive access to ad-free episodes. You can have access to bonus content like our quarterly online seminars. For more information, just check out the homepage archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. And you can also join our brand new Discord server and continue the conversation afterwards. So maybe see you there. If not, see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:55:58
Speaker
I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. If you did, make sure to like, follow, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and I'll see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:56:10
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.