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The 1999 classic starring Brendan Fraser... - Ep 23
366 Plays6 months ago
This year is the 25th anniversary of the 1999 classic starring Brendan Fraser - yes, we’re talking about The Mummy - and to celebrate, Matilda is joined today by object conservator Jessica van Dam to talk all about mummies! How old is the oldest mummy? Why were some mummies wrapped in red bandages? Were there mummies found in the pyramids? And what exactly is an object conservator? Find out the answers to these and more in this month’s episode!
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/teabreak/23
Links
- Jess website
- Video on the Westminster Mummy
- Article on the Westminster Mummy
- News clip: "Moving the Westminster Mummy"
- Digital Giza Project
- [Smithsonian article on mummies](https://www.si.edu/spotlight/ancient-egypt/mummies#:~:text=About 2600 BCE%2C during the,into the Roman Period (ca "")
- Egyptian Afterlife challenge (British Museum)
Contact the Host
- Email: [email protected]
- https://www.thearchaeologiststeacup.com
- insta: @the_archaeologists_teacup
- fb: /TheArchaeologistsTeacup
- twitter: @ArchaeoTeacup
Guest Contact
- Name: Jessica van Dam
- insta: @dutchjesss
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
Affiliates
- Motion: https://www.archpodnet.com/motion
- Liquid I.V.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to Tea Break Time Travel, where every month we look at a different archaeological object and take you on a journey into their past.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to episode 23 of Tea Break Time Travel. I am your host, Matilda Ziebrecht, and today I am savoring a delicious apple cinnamon rooibos tea, which just, even though I know it's spring, it tastes like autumn in a cup, which is just wonderful.
Jessica van Dom's Career and Expertise
00:00:32
Speaker
And joining me on my tea break today is osteoarchaeologist, forensic anthropologist, and object conservator, Jessica van Dom. Welcome, Jessica. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you. And what are you drinking today?
00:00:46
Speaker
I'm drinking Yorkshire's toast and jam tea, which is very delightful. Wait, what? Yes. Yes. Yorkshire makes a toast and jam tea and they also make a biscuit and a biscuit. Biscuit tea.
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah. That sounds very cool. I must say, so full disclosure to those people listening, Jess and I are friends. We have known each other quite a while now. We did our masters together at Leiden University. And Jess bought me a tea a couple of years ago, which was the most delicious tea I have ever drunk in my life. And I have been searching for the equivalent.
00:01:22
Speaker
since finishing the bag. Because when I finished it, I messaged her to say, by the way, if you wouldn't mind ordering me another bag, and we found out that they'd gone out of business or they'd stopped production or something. So we couldn't find it again. So I've been looking for the same tea for a long, long time. It was something like caramelized almond. When I worked at the coffee shop and I brought you, yeah, there was like an almond one and then there was like a pistachio one. Yeah, it was from your
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. And I have no idea where they source that tea. It was with Almond. I remember it was with Almond and it was just so delicious. And I've now just been searching for that same tea. Maybe I'll email it off. They changed like this. If anyone who's listening in happens to have
00:02:03
Speaker
Oh, no, that's even worse. But if anyone listening in happens to know of, you know, like wonderful caramelized almond tea that they think that I would enjoy, please do feel free to send me something. Always be welcome. So yes, anyone
00:02:18
Speaker
Anyway, thank you very much Jess for joining me today. Thanks for having me. First question though, so I'll see your archaeology and forensic anthropology was when I knew you, that was what you were sort of focused on at that point, but since then you have developed further, gone in a slightly different side quest, shall we say, which has now become the main quest, and you are now an object conservator, which my question is, what exactly is an object conservator?
00:02:41
Speaker
Well, so sometimes we're called art conservators, not to be confused with like environmental conservators. I don't deal with nature. What I do is I fix and clean and care for museum objects or typically museum objects, but really just anything that needs help.
Current Projects and Conservation Work
00:03:00
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So it is quite often art pieces or sort of, yeah, in that respect, but it can also be other things.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So like right now I'm working on a doll house from Japan from about the 1920s. And then coming up, I'm working on, I think some taxidermy, which I'm not excited about. There's just so much arsenic in taxidermy. Oh gosh. Yeah. No, just so pretty much anything.
00:03:27
Speaker
So even things you don't think of as objects? I was about to say, stuffed animals. But yeah, I guess they are objects in a way. So that makes sense. Well, good to know. Now we're aware of what we're talking about. But so of course, still working with sort of museum objects, with objects from the past. And even though I guess your background was more in kind of
00:03:47
Speaker
anthropology and the scientific side of archaeology, what got you first interested in that side of things? What first got you into the more historic or the heritage or however you want to call it, side of science and conservation? I can't remember how old I was, but I had these kids' books that had
00:04:07
Speaker
like it was about some topic and then they had like the sort of normal pages but then there was like see-through pages and there was one specifically on ancient Egypt and so then it was like layers of mummies that you could like add on with the clear pages and so ever since then like the Egyptology childhood like fever hit and then just never went away so originally I was going to be an
00:04:32
Speaker
have always sort of circled back in interesting ways. Yeah, so actually, I'm curious about that. So what made you change direction from Egyptology? There was a TV show Bones on when I was in high school. So when I was a teenager, pre-undergrad, and I was like, oh, forensic anthropology, that looks like a cool job. Because I had friends in Egyptology who made very little money. I was like, oh, I should pick a more marketable skill.
00:05:01
Speaker
forensic anthropology, which is maybe not the most marketable skill either, but you do what you can. Although I guess it does have more applications than, for example, something like just anthropology or archaeology, because you can use, I don't know, when I think of forensic anthropology, I think of like, indeed, crime scene investigation and that kind of thing. So is it applicable in multiple different spheres?
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, a little bit. So it's used in, so you kind of have to know some archaeology to be a forensic anthropologist, because mostly you're working with skeletal remains and often they are buried. And so you have to know how to like properly excavate and document and got it. Okay. Yeah. So then, but then because it's a forensic context, you almost have to be like more detail oriented in case there's like some crucial piece of evidence as you're excavate excavating. And it's not just like a pot chair.
00:05:54
Speaker
the context of this, which oh gosh, then that's indeed the whole next level. Because to be honest, that's what I, as I've discussed on this podcast previously, I am not a field mouse, I'm a lab rat. So I will more happily do little investigations in the lab than I will necessarily out in the field. But one of the things that I both loved and hated about academic excavations was that kind of real attention to detail, let's say, like of having to really you find something and you have to monitor
00:06:21
Speaker
every single aspect. But so does that mean that you have field archaeological experience as well? I don't know. I too am an indoor critter. So the problem with forensic anthropology is like, yes, you could be out excavating the skeleton. But most of the time you're in a lab in the dark, running the same measurements and tests on skeletons like over and over and over and over and over again. And it's definitely a publisher parish field as well, which I
00:06:48
Speaker
do not subscribe to. I don't like it. I don't want a part of it. Fair enough. Fair enough. That's very noble of you, I think, to actually stick by those morals. Very good of you. Don't just run me away. Well, I mean, there's two ways of approaching the same thing. And so is that why? Because we started with Egyptology, moved into forensic anthropology, osteoarchaeology, and then now have moved to
00:07:16
Speaker
object conservation. So how did that change come around? So when I was in my undergrad with forensic anthropology, I entered at the Giza project at Harvard, which was basically creating this database of all excavation records from Giza in Egypt. And which was very cool. And they did a 3d rendering. So if you Google the Giza project, you can take a cool like a 3d tour of Giza, which is very cool. So check that out. And then, yeah, it's fun. So
00:07:47
Speaker
Through that, I met my friend Molly and Molly had interned with Mimi and Mimi is an art conservator or an object conservator who specializes ironically in Egyptian mummies. And so, hey, Molly was like, oh, you should meet Mimi. And then my mom's friend who worked at Harvard was like, oh, I have this friend Mimi, you would really like her. I think you should go into her. And I was like,
00:08:12
Speaker
Who's this meanie woman? And it took me forever to finally just like, okay, I'll email her. I don't know what I'm asked. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I'm just like, hi.
00:08:24
Speaker
I've heard you're cool. Like, can I come in? People keep telling me to contact you. I'm doing it. And then she never emailed me back. And so it was like, Oh man, she hates me already. Like this is done. And so I told my mom's friend and she was like, Oh, I'll call her. So she called her and it turns out Mimi's mother-in-law had died. And so she was like, literally a girl. And I was like, Oh my God, no, like, please, please don't.
00:08:57
Speaker
But eventually I did go intern with her and then the museum was opening up a new wing and so then I got a job because payment is nice. It is nice, yeah. When the pandemic hit, it was like, oh, I can't work and I should go get a degree. So I went and got another degree. So that's how I got into objects conservation.
00:09:19
Speaker
which is really interesting to see. It's so fascinating how many of my guests that I have on as well almost sort of have fallen by accident in a way into their final form. Because yeah, just just through following what you want to do, making contacts with people who are suggested to you. I mean, it's amazing how how life works that way. Yeah, yeah. It's always like a weird evolution of like networking and
00:09:47
Speaker
Somebody knows somebody who knows somebody who may be as interesting. But following up on those, because like you say, you know, at first you were like, Oh, no, I don't want to, but then I think thank goodness you did, because otherwise, you know, you wouldn't have got to where you are today, I guess.
Career Path and Influences
00:10:00
Speaker
I'd still be a barista. So
00:10:04
Speaker
which then maybe you could have finally found that tea for me. So, you know, actually, true. I mean, in the long run, which what's the best outcome? Now I need to get into like detecting like private detective like find the tea. Yes, there you go. And you can do the forensic anthropology that you need to have it and you can conserve any clues that are left along the way. I mean, package really.
00:10:28
Speaker
Here we go. We're going to find this tea for you. Next cozy adventure mystery coming up. Oh my God. Oh, you can rate it. Perfect. I will. Maybe I would kind of want to now. Anyway. So we talked about the tea, we talked about your experience, but of course the other part of today is the time travel, which I have to ask all of my guests if you could travel back in time. And I think based on what we've just talked about, I can probably guess where you might go, but let's ask anyway, just in case. So if you could travel back in time, where would you go and why?
00:10:58
Speaker
Okay, this is really tough for me because there are several arrows that I would like to go back to. So like ancient Egypt is cool, but secretly I really like the like 1880s turn of the century Egyptology craze. I recognize that the archeology at the time was not ideal and like the politics of the time were not great.
00:11:27
Speaker
But there's something about Victorian Egyptology that just seems like, I don't know, fun. I mean, this could be very much influenced by the books that I read. But yeah, so I might do that. I might choose that. You could do like almost a contextual tour. So you could first go back to actual ancient Egypt, and then you can see how it was kind of interpreted and crazed in the late 1800s.
00:11:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. Okay, if I can go back to multiple times, then great. That's awesome. I don't know if I was submitted to one trip or like multiple trips or... That would be, I mean, that would be the question. It would be a thing of budget, you know, if you could afford to have the duplex package. Yeah.
00:12:14
Speaker
Well, then it's sorted, so thank you for joining me on my tea break today. Before we discuss today's object, though, we are first going to journey back to ancient Egypt, indeed, about 4,000 years. It's the middle of the day. It's baking hot.
00:12:28
Speaker
out in the open, but luckily we happen to be inside, within the cool stone walls of a dimly lit room. A smell similar to that of pine almost but not quite obscures the slightly putrid smell, emitting from a corpse that is lying on a table in the centre of the room.
00:12:45
Speaker
I say corpse, really? It's more of a shell at this point, as two figures bustle around it, speaking to each other in low murmurs and preparing bundles of straw and an assortment of pots from which waft the pine scent. On another bench nearby, a piled rolls and folds of thin, sharp material, pale and clean and fresh. Of course, over the next thousands of years, this fresh material will yellow and shrink, becoming an essential part of our visualisation of this ancient
00:13:15
Speaker
culture. So indeed, today we are looking at mummies, which I'm very excited about. And before we go to our break, I do have to ask one final question about your experience. Oh my, I don't know if you can hear the rain, it's really downpouring out there. I can't. Well, it'll be a nice aesthetic background. Okay.
00:13:36
Speaker
So yes, I have an essential question about your academic experience in terms of Egyptology and how you deal with the mummies at your current job. Have you seen and are you a fan of the film The Mummy? Oh, you mean the 1999 classic starring Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz? I do mean the 1999 classic starring Brendan Fraser.
00:13:56
Speaker
me obsessed with that movie from my childhood? Absolutely. Interestingly, as we're recording this, next week is the 25th anniversary of its original release.
00:14:09
Speaker
It's showing again in theaters. And yes, my boyfriend and I are going, and I did get us matching t-shirts. So I am very excited. Oh, I really wish I could go and see it in the cinema. I don't think they're doing that here. And even if they did, they doubled the films in Germany. So it would probably be doubled in German. Well, this is just your excuse to come here next week. There you go. Yeah. Easy. There we go. It's not like I have a job or a kid.
00:14:38
Speaker
or no money. Oh, have an amazing time. I'm sure it'll be incredible. Well, I'm very, very jealous. I'm sure you'll have an amazing time. But for now, let us have a quick pause while we consider the wonder that is indeed Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weiss in the 1999 classic, The Mummy. And we will be right back soon.
00:15:01
Speaker
Welcome back everybody. I hope you managed to, uh, you know, get to the tomb in time and save Evie from the hands of, uh, of the mummy. I forgot what his name is. The mummy in the mummy. Imhotep? Imhotep, that's the one. Oh gosh. Yeah.
00:15:16
Speaker
is really need to rewatch that film. But anyway, so everybody don't really watch that film. It's your homework. So something that I usually like to do to get a sort of vague idea of what those listening might want to know about the topic of the podcast is to look at the most asked questions on the internet, courtesy of Google search autofill, to let us see, you know, what other people are wanting to find out. And seeing as we have Jess here with us today, hopefully we might get some answers about that.
00:15:45
Speaker
Oh, Matilda, before we get too far, I should clarify that I am not an Egyptologist. I am a fairly well-informed enthusiast, but if any of your listeners today are in fact professional Egyptologists and I get anything wrong or you disagree with my personal opinions, please be very kind. So, yes. Anyway, so after that disclaimer,
00:16:07
Speaker
What has Google asked us today? Well, there were sort of all sorts of, there were some which I thought, oh, this is a little bit weird to ask, but some of them I thought, okay, this is very weird, but actually is quite interesting. So for example, what did mummies look like fresh? Um, so which layer? I mean, I imagine they were just a dead body. Like originally, it's, it's a body.
00:16:35
Speaker
And then some of the internal organs are removed, some kept and saved, some sort of just discarded, like the brain's just discarded. And then the whole body is packed in Natron, which is a type of salt. Yeah. So then all of the moisture is, is sucked out of the body. So then it's just sort of a dry body, think leather. And then everything's sort of packed back in and made to look sort of human shaped and then wrapped in linens and different patterns, which changed over the centuries.
00:17:06
Speaker
And then it was like eventually anointed with different oils and resins and stuff. So I guess the answer is sort of a slightly humiform bundle of linens with
Mummification Practices in Ancient Egypt
00:17:21
Speaker
resinous oil drizzle on the top. Would they have been... In my little flash bag, I had the linen as being just white and clean, because I guess that's our impression of what it would have been like. But is that similar to... Because I know so many people who think of Neolithic or the Stone Age, and you just think everyone more brown all the time. But actually, there's so many studies now that show that they were wearing purple and reds and pinks and everything.
00:17:46
Speaker
would the mummies have been just wrapped in white or would there have been also different colors? There were different colors, usually sort of decoratively. So I've seen red and pink, but also sort of the off white natural linen color. Yeah, the red ones are really interesting. There's only a few I think that have been found, but they're sort of crisscrossed and striped with red. I think the British Museum has one. But they're very interesting. So there are other colors. But as you said, they don't necessarily like
00:18:15
Speaker
stay the color that they were. And even the white is now sort of like yellow brown and crumbly. Yeah, okay. Which, I mean, you mentioned it's sort of crumbly. I mean, is it possible to conserve that? Or do you just have to kind of put a protective layer on top? Yes and no. So it's more like, it's just like very stiff at a certain point, like, or at least the ones like the pieces that have like the oils and the resins are very stiff. And so, okay, if they flake off, you
00:18:47
Speaker
an adhesive called metal cellulose typically, which is the active ingredient in hairspray. Yeah, it doesn't affect the mummy and it's basically like a plant cellulose. And so it's not really, we're not really adding anything like too new to the mummy by like using that adhesive. But then we'll also sometimes wrap a new layer of linen around something that needs a little more support or something we try to match as close as we can obviously too.
00:19:15
Speaker
the original linens in that particular location. But yeah, there's a few ways to keep it all together. Oh, interesting. But yeah, you don't ever have the urge to secretly add in a bright green linen or something? I mean, that would be fun. Look what I found, guys. Look, it's magic. It's the find of the century.
00:19:45
Speaker
me in the Victorian era. Look guys, it's great. So another question is, it seems quite simple, but actually, maybe it's not what mummies were found in the pyramids. Well, so there are different pyramids, obviously, well, maybe not obviously. So there's the Giza ones, those are the most famous. And that's what we always think of. But there's pyramids up and down the Nile. Typically, they're from around the fourth dynasty, which is about
00:20:13
Speaker
2,600 BCE. Yeah, about that. But also, mummification started about at the same time, which means it was not particularly well. They hadn't really gotten into their stride in the mummification process. We don't have very many early mummies from that period. And so even mummies that have been found in pyramids
00:20:33
Speaker
are not necessarily the original inhabitants of pyramids. Some people think that they got re-interred there because they were like, oh, it's a pyramid. We should just put him in there. That'll be fun. We don't have to give him a tomb. Yeah. Someone built this already for us. Nice. We don't have to put the money in. So yeah, mummification really was at its peak during about the 18th and 20th dynasty. And so the short answer is,
00:21:03
Speaker
there have been mummies found in the pyramids. Who they originally were is unclear. So they're not necessarily like a pharaoh. They could have just been a priest or some wealthy widow or something. And by the 18th and 20th Dynasty, they had decided that pyramids were a little ostentatious and so had moved to like rock ooze. Weird. Where did they think that? What?
00:21:29
Speaker
Here is all these gold pieces of this royal burial. Please come and take them.
00:21:35
Speaker
Have you seen that meme which is like, oh, you know, you may have competition in life, but we are all buried the same way or something and then you have a picture of a pyramid being like, speak for yourself peasant. So there were mummies found in pyramids, but might not necessarily have been intended for the pyramids and might have been put in there later.
00:22:01
Speaker
Correct. Yes. Interesting. That's so fascinating. I didn't know that. So, okay. The next question is actually, you would think quite simple, but actually I don't
Purpose of Mummification
00:22:10
Speaker
know the answer to it. So I'm wondering if you do. Why were mummies made? I actually, so I, I did a lot of research for this podcast because I didn't trust my memory. I appreciate it. Thank you. And so my understanding was always that the continuation of their body and their name guaranteed their existence in the afterlife.
00:22:29
Speaker
Evidently, there has been some research that that was not the case. It was more that they were trying to attain like godliness by mummifying because they would put like cartonnage, which is sort of almost like a paper mache, but with linen masks that were like gold and shiny and fun. And it's kind of what we think of as like a mummy face, like not quite the Tutankhamun level, but the layer beneath that. And so I think that was sort of the, the idea was that like, if they were gold,
00:22:58
Speaker
here, then they would be gold and deity-esque in the afterlife. So it's almost like giving yourself a little makeover, really. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're giving yourself Botox before going to the afterlife. With gold. With gold and paper mache. Interesting form of Botox. So it wouldn't have necessarily been everyone who got mummified then. Yeah. I mean, basically you just had to have money. Mummification was very expensive. And so the more money you had, the
00:23:28
Speaker
the more likely you were to be mummified and the better quality your mummification was. So like, you could pay for like 30 layers of linens instead of like 10, you know, that kind of differentiation. Be well wrapped instead of just like, ah, this is fine. I wanted a gold face. Let's just make a paper match. I want them all to stick some eyes on it. Some googly eyes.
00:23:58
Speaker
Okay, interesting. And so there's sort of a lot of, if you have that idea of it being kind of immortalized, but then we haven't always been able to sort of identify the mummies when when they've been found. So I mean, I guess not all of them have that mask or not all of them have kind of things that would make them easily identifiable. Or are they usually some things that you could say, Oh, yeah, that must be so and so. I mean, it depends on how, like what the context was. I mean,
00:24:39
Speaker
was included in their names on their coffins. And so if you can tell without too much doubt that the mummy came from that coffin, then that's pretty, that's a pretty clear indication of who that was. But there was a cash found in, I want to say Daryl Bakri, but I could be very wrong. Please don't be mean. But there was a lot of royal mummies. Potentially. Yeah.
00:24:48
Speaker
Here we go on an archeology podcast.
00:25:04
Speaker
According to Jess's poor memory, but there was a lot of royal in that cache. And I think they had, they know who most of them are. And so they must have had some sort of identifying feature on them. I have not studied that cache or the archaeological records. It was done in the Victorian era. So, you know, good luck, but
00:25:29
Speaker
No, but that's really interesting. And I mean, we talked about the fact that there are, I'll get there is still one last question, but I'm gonna wait a little bit before we deal with that one, because it's quite a big one. So just related to this, so not everyone could necessarily be mummied in terms of humans. And of course, human mummies are the most famous, but
00:25:46
Speaker
Am I right in thinking, I mean, there are other kinds of mummies found as well, right? So does that mean that rich people were just paying for like their cats or whatever to get mummified? I mean, it's, I'm not sure if like rich people were paying for their pets to be mummified, but a lot of like animals were associated with different gods and goddesses. And so they would be mummified and more of a like, right, in association with those gods. And so like cats are a big example.
00:26:15
Speaker
they're associated with Bastet and Sekhmet, kind of the same deity that's evolved over a period of time. But other ones are like crocodiles, ibis. I think there was a, I think I've seen dog ones, falcons. So anything that you can kind of like link to the image of one of the Egyptian gods, there's probably a mummy of it. And I think it was more like associated with like the types of temples. Interesting. Yeah.
00:26:43
Speaker
Okay, interesting. No, that's really cool. Also, so far we have been focusing on mummies from Egypt, but I believe that there are mummies in other parts
Global Mummification Practices
00:26:55
Speaker
of the world. How did the mummification process differ, and how did the development of mummification differ in different parts of the world? That's a good question.
00:27:09
Speaker
There are several regions that have sort of the deliberate mummies, which we think of as Egyptian mummies. So doing something artificial to ensure that the body is in fact mummified. But there's also sort of accidental mummification, which does happen in Egypt because it's very dry. But there's like Peruvian mummies, those often, I think they're
00:27:31
Speaker
cave burials. Again, this is not my field. Right. Yes. I think I know the ones you mean. Yes. Somebody will know. Someone in the comments will know. Korean mummies have been found because they wrap their bodies on so many layers of silk. They just sort of accidentally mummified.
00:27:55
Speaker
I haven't done a lot of research about them, but they sound fascinating. But yeah, so there's mummies all over and like at different time periods. And so what was the oldest mummy found then? Does that come from Egypt? I think the oldest deliberately mummified individual was from the Chinchouro culture.
00:28:16
Speaker
which is now Chile. It was from about 5050 BCE. And the oldest naturally or like accidentally mummified individual was from the Atacama desert from about 7020 BCE. Okay, so I mean, you mentioned like 5050 BC or something. And I think I remember you saying that the earliest Egyptian one was in like 2000 BC or something. So I mean, they were they were doing mummification in other parts of the world.
00:28:45
Speaker
a lot earlier actually than in Egypt, even though when we think of mummies, I guess we immediately think of Egypt, which is quite funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of happened all over the world and for a very long time. So it's not just the Egyptians, even though they get all the fame, although they have a lot of gold. So, you know, maybe that's what is the driving force of our knowledge. I mean, yeah. And those masks, the paper mache masks. Yes. Where is the money?
00:29:15
Speaker
And they have the big pyramids. The only seventh wonder of the ancient world. True. That's very true. Yeah, that's very true. Well, so by the way, apologies if you can hear my daughter in the background going blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's, you know, I think it's very disrespectful that she hears me talking and just goes blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, no, I'm sick. Very interesting and informative educational material here. Anyway. One day, one day she's going to find this fascinating.
00:29:43
Speaker
Yes, one nation will find it interesting. Yes, exactly. So my final question, which comes from the Google autofill, which I thought was an interesting one, actually, it came up in several different sort of forms, but it all asked basically the same question, which is why should or should not mummies be in museums?
Ethical Considerations of Displaying Mummies
00:30:04
Speaker
So
00:30:05
Speaker
And I've heard this discussion a lot. Of course, mummies are human remains. So I'm curious if you could maybe shine a light on that discussion and why there's a feeling that maybe mummies shouldn't actually be in museums anymore. Definitely a contentious question and definitely dependent on the origin of the mummies. As we've talked about, mummies come from all across the globe from Peru, Egypt, Korea, even the UK. And while some are deliberately created like the Egyptian ones, there are some accidental ones like the bog bodies or the ice bodies.
00:30:33
Speaker
I was thinking UK, but of course, yeah, the bug bodies. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Bug bodies. For Egyptian mummies, because their beliefs hinged on the continued existence of their names and bodies, or at least their bodies to make them into divinities. I personally think that it's, we're sort of aiding in their afterlife by caring for, looking at, and talking about them. Obviously we don't necessarily know all of their names, but I feel like there must be some sort of gray area that's like, well, at least they're
00:31:01
Speaker
being talked about in some capacity. Oh, that's really nice of you, actually. I like that. For other types of human remains on display in museums, it's a tough call. On the one hand, you want sort of the educational aspects, both relating to human anatomy and also different cultural practices around human remains and death. On the other hand, some viewers are just looking for a ghoulish spectacle. And so, you know, they just want to go.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, mommy, mommies are creepy. Yeah. And while you would like everybody to be respectful, you're not going to get that. You can't force people to be respectful. Yeah. There's also the sort of observation I've made or I think some other people have maybe made this too. But our general cultures today is sort of death avoidant. We don't necessarily like talking about death or viewing or witnessing or like, I mean,
00:31:57
Speaker
I don't think any of us particularly want to experience death, but, or like be death adjacent, but I think it's really important. It's a very serious topic. It's a very good point you're making, but the phrasing. Yes. But anyway, carry on. Yeah. Yeah. Death adjacent. So I feel like it's.
00:32:18
Speaker
I mean, it was so integral to so many cultures of like how they dealt with death and how they prepared for their afterlife and how they prepared their loved ones for afterlife and everything. So I think it's really important that we we don't avoid it instinctively just because we don't necessarily like it. Right. Yeah, fair enough. And a lot of people have brought up that, you know, like everything should be returned to the original
00:32:46
Speaker
country that something has come from. So Egyptian mummies are a fairly popular topic for that. A lot of people think that mummies should be brought back to Egypt. For the most part, if the objects were brought legally, which is to say they followed the laws at the time, the Egyptian government is really quite happy with them staying wherever they've ended up, as long as they're appropriately cared for, or at least we hope. Oh, okay.
00:33:14
Speaker
Yeah. And unless they're royal, they don't really mind. I mean, obviously we could go into like some like case studies of like the Rosetta Stone or the bus of Nefertiti and how those should be brought back to Egypt. And there's all sorts of things. We could fill a whole podcast series about that. Yeah. I don't want to like
00:33:40
Speaker
could go too crazy. Yeah. But for the most part, I mean, some of my friends have, you know, specifically said that they don't want to see Egyptian mummies in museums because they feel like they should be sent back and it's disruptive and all this stuff. And so I have mostly told them that if they feel weird about looking at Egyptian mummies either, I mean, don't go or just to get rid of them with respect and understand that their beliefs differ from ours.
00:34:05
Speaker
And then research until you feel less uncomfortable. Cause I think is the more that we educate ourselves, the more we can sort of understand how they may have felt as opposed to us. And so we can sort of go from there. So anyway, so yeah, so it's just a tough question to answer and it's a little bit.
00:34:26
Speaker
There's only like personal answers, really. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things. Cause like you say, in terms of ethics and things, I guess, indeed the, like you say, maybe they would have actually appreciated having them displayed and having them cared for and interacted with in that respect. So yeah. Yeah. And obviously we can't ask them. So we kind of just have to guess the best that we can. We could, when we do our time travel trip, we can, we can check and see what they think. Yes. Yeah.
00:34:54
Speaker
That sounds like a great idea. Okay. Well, we're going to have a very quick break now so that those listening can have an opportunity to top up their tea, but we will be back very, very soon. Welcome back, everyone. I hope the teacups are now fuller and the biscuit jar emptier. So we did already talk a little bit about sort of your directionality and how that kind of all worked in terms of your experience, but maybe we could go into a little more detail now in case anyone who's listening in is going, Hey, I want to
00:35:23
Speaker
I'm interested in Egyptology. And I thought I was interested in forensic anthropology, but maybe I want to go in a different direction. So, I mean, we've talked about how you kind of changed direction a little bit throughout your career so far. How easy was that direction change to do? I mean, you mentioned that the sort of the last one was, you had to do their degree because you needed the job and all those kind of things. But I mean, from a practical or administrative standpoint, how easy was it to change track? It's always been kind of easy.
00:35:51
Speaker
I guess, I mean, it helped that I picked subjects that had transferable skills. And so it was fairly easy to pivot. But Mimi, who I mentioned earlier, Mimi Leveque has been particularly helpful because she originally was an archaeologist and did conservation for archaeology. And so we sort of
00:36:08
Speaker
I followed her ever so slightly. I just have a little bit more skeletal knowledge, but not by much. She is really good. It's always been transferable and easy to switch over. That's good. That's nice to know. Try to go for things that if you would change, you would still have something to fall back on, which is a good way to do it.
00:36:28
Speaker
And so in terms of the, so obviously, you came from sort of a different side of things. And luckily, you had those transferable skills. But for people who might be listening in who were just starting, starting on their journey, what is the kind of more, the normal process, shall we say, of becoming an object conservator? I mean, if you're really, really at the beginning, then I would say do an undergrad in either our conservation, if that's really what you want to do, or
00:36:53
Speaker
try to sort of double major if you can in art and science and get as broad an education in those as you can. Because that's basically what our conservation is. It's just a combination of art and science because you have to understand chemicals. Nice. The perfect company. Yeah, exactly. And so then you can go into internships and pre-program internships and you could get a master's, which is what gets you the better jobs.
00:37:19
Speaker
do post-program internships and fellowships and hopefully you find a job at some point. And obviously, all of this sort of depends on which country you're looking at and what education system you're in. But yeah, there's pretty much options in most countries, I believe, or nearby. I mean, Europe is just sort of nearby at a certain point.
00:37:43
Speaker
Just across the pond, right? That's the phrase we use. Yeah, exactly. Very, very close. Would you say it's quite a sort of competitive area to get into? I mean, are there if you if you if you get your degree, if you do your internships, or I mean, can you get internships? Or is it already quite competitive at the sort of training level? The pre program internships, I think, at least when I was doing mine, which was sort of unofficial,
00:38:11
Speaker
easy to get because a lot of places don't list their internship opportunities. You have to go and contact them. So if ever you want to do something, I mean, it doesn't even have to be our conservation or Egyptology or whatever, but like go intern in it because you will, you want to understand what the day to day activities are like because I didn't understand that I didn't actually like forensic anthropology or archeology because it was a lot of repetitive tasks.
00:38:37
Speaker
that didn't vary that much from day to day. And I got so bored so quickly. But our conservation is different every single day. So I don't get bored typically. But I wouldn't have known that had I not interned in it. So I think it's whatever you're trying to get into or whatever you're interested in, just go intern in it because they'll just
00:38:57
Speaker
take you. I mean, people will always take cheap or free help. true. Yeah, very, very true. And I mean, because you sort of changed direction so much, do you regret not having originally started with our conservation? Or do you find that what you've learned in your previous jobs, I mean, you mentioned transferable skills already, can you use them in your current position as well? Or is it just sort of indirect skills in that way?
00:39:23
Speaker
In some ways, yes, I do wish that I started in our conservation. It would have been nice to like maybe be farther along in my career at this point, or, you know, maybe I could have more like finally aligned my education to support a really strong base in our conservation. But at the same time, so many of the skills that I learned in my previous degrees are transferable. Like I did a lot of sciences and forensics, which is really important for our conservation. And then my archeology background has been really helpful in
00:39:52
Speaker
working with Egyptian mummies, which I have worked on technically only one at this point. But still, anyway, I have worked on them. And it's helpful for like object handling, because if you're used to handling a, you know, 2000 year olds,
00:40:06
Speaker
Anglo-Saxon brooch that has just been excavated, then you can handle a 100 year old boss. So that's, that's an also like a different kind of transferable skill. And I had a background in art when I was younger, so I've always sort of done art. And so I didn't really technically need art courses to bolster that. I think they would have been helpful, but I've sort of.
00:40:30
Speaker
avoided needing more education because I don't need more degrees. What will be next? That's the question that I got to have you back on again, you know, different direction.
00:40:51
Speaker
I already have one friend who has promised to shoot me in the head if I ever decide to do a PhD. So it won't be a PhD, but I could do a third Masters. This could be it. What would you do out of curiosity if you would go in a different direction? I might do something with Korean history. That's another interest that I have is Korean history and conserving Korean objects.
00:41:17
Speaker
So that's related, though. So that's, oh, yeah, no, it's all tangential. And in terms of sort of the work that you do now, you you were working for a museum, but you also do commission based work as well. What are the kind of advantages and disadvantages of those two jobs? So if one had a full time fixed position, which I don't, but if one did,
00:41:42
Speaker
you get regular paychecks, you get, well, especially in America, you get health benefits, paid time off, sick leave, you know, all these like really nice luxuries because in America, those are luxuries for sure. But at the same time, when I work contract jobs where I set how much I'm being paid, I can make a lot more money and a lot less time. So, I mean, the goal for me, I think is to sort of have both
00:42:12
Speaker
If I can, we'll see how possible that is. It's all just balancing a regular paycheck versus a big paycheck sometimes. Yeah, taking that risk. On that note, are there any exciting projects coming up or anything planned for the future?
00:42:31
Speaker
I mean, being on your podcast is definitely the most exciting project I've been on. Projects, I should say. As I just saw that our first podcast together, it was released today. So I'm excited about that. Yes, that's true. And my travel.
00:42:47
Speaker
Yes, indeed. For those of you who are not aware, I also co-host another podcast called Am My Trial, which looks at the intersection between fantasy fiction and archaeology. And Jess was our guest this month talking about vampires. So if that's something that interests you, please do go and listen to that. I love the like the varied topics that you get me on for. Right? Mummy is back. Empires, mummy. I mean, what's gonna be next? What supernatural creature shall we find next?
00:43:14
Speaker
That's a dead person. You can talk about that. Oh yeah. We can talk about Frankenstein. Maybe. I don't know. We'll find something. I'm sure. Dorian Gray, conservation. Anyway. But anyway, just a project's coming up. Sorry. But yeah, it was in terms of future projects. We had a mummy project fall through. So a few summers ago, I worked on a mummy that is housed in Pennsylvania at a very small college called Westminster.
00:43:43
Speaker
And it was very cool. And so Westminster College social media did post about it. So I'll try to send the link over to you, Matilda, so you can put it in the show notes. It was very fun. The mummy's name is Pesthead. And so I specifically worked on her coffin while my supervisor Mimi worked on the mummy and we had an intern, Laura.
00:44:03
Speaker
and our Egyptologist, Jonathan. So we jokingly call ourselves the Mummy Dream Team, which is very fun. And so we're always looking for new Mummy jobs, Mummy opportunities, but funding is particularly scarce, unsurprisingly. So.
00:44:19
Speaker
We're keeping an eye out, but that's the ultimate goal is to find more mummy projects for you. Well, excellent. Well, hopefully, you know, people will be listening into this podcast and go, oh, well, mummies. Yes, I have, I have loads of money and I want people to look at mummies. So I will send her my fund right now.
00:44:35
Speaker
Here, have a pot of money. Yes, thank you. Exactly, exactly. Perfect, perfect. Well, I think that that marks the end of our tea break. I'll leave you to your quest for funding for the Mummy Project, but thank you so, so much for joining me today, Jess. Very much appreciate it.
00:44:53
Speaker
Thanks for having me. And if anyone wants to find out more about Jess's work or Mummy's or anything that we've spoken about today, check out the show notes. I'll try and put in as many links to things as possible on the podcast homepage. I hope that you all enjoyed our journey today. If you want to help support both this show and all of the other amazing series, for example, and my trial,
00:45:14
Speaker
that form the Archaeology Podcast Network, you can become an APN member. You'll be helping us to create even more amazing content. You'll also, just as an extra bonus, have exclusive access to ad-free episodes and bonus content like our quarterly online seminars, which look at different topics within archaeology.
00:45:30
Speaker
So for more information on that, do check out the homepage at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Also, if you would like to continue the conversation or ask any questions, you can contact both me and all of the other hosts on the Archaeology Podcast Network through our Discord server. Again, all information is on the website. Bye for now. See you next time. I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. If you did, make sure to like, follow, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and I'll see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:45:59
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.