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It's got pockets! - Ep 19
440 Plays10 months ago
You thought that last month was a short trip back in time, but this month is an even shorter trip as we travel to the Edo period of Japan with special guest Tehya Nakamura - otherwise known as TK and host of the podcast “For the Love of History” - to chat all about netsuke. But what are netsuke? How do you wear them? What do they have to do with big sleeves and pockets? And what is the link between Blackbeard and female samurai? Listen in to find out!
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/teabreak/19
Links
- For the Love of History Podcast website
- For the Love of History Podcast Instagram
- For the Love of History Podcast episode on the first female Samurai
- Netsuke info
- “Samurai Women” book
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- Email: [email protected]
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- twitter: @ArchaeoTeacup
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Transcript
Episode Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to Tea Break Time Travel where every month we look at a different archaeological object and take you on a journey into their past.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode 19 of Tea Break Time Travel. I am your host, Matilda Ziebrecht. Today I am savoring a Roibos mint chocolate tea because it is pretty much like two days after Christmas. I realize when we're recording this that it's going to be released like two days after Christmas. So I'm still in the holiday spirit.
00:00:35
Speaker
A little bit with
Meet Teya Nakamura aka TK
00:00:36
Speaker
that. And joining me on my tea break today is Teya Nakamura, aka TK, who you may recognise the name because she was featured in my newsletter recently as the host of the amazing podcast, For the Love of History. Thank you so much for joining us today, TK. And are you also on a hot beverage
Tea Culture in Japan
00:00:54
Speaker
today? I do. I have a hot beverage. It's been a crazy week, so I am imbibing in chamomile tea with a splash of honey.
00:01:02
Speaker
One of those things. I get it. Because you are based in Japan. Is Japan a large tea drinking culture? It's one of those things I don't actually know. Yeah, it is. It's a super big tea drinking culture. Most people I think are familiar with matcha tea.
00:01:35
Speaker
That's one of the most famous teas, but actually
00:01:39
Speaker
people here don't drink it every day. The most popular tea in Japan, I would say during the summertime is barley tea. And when I was on the train, I was drinking some barley tea. Green tea is super popular here. There's all sorts of different kinds of green tea. And if you go to any little small town in Japan, they will always say, we have the best green tea here in blah, blah, blah.
00:02:05
Speaker
And you can get the little mug to prove it. Best tea in Japan. Yeah, fair enough. Exactly. It's barley tea. I mean, is that just a way of saying that you're drinking a nice hot beer? Or... I wish. I mean, what does that taste like?
Kendo and Personal Growth
00:02:20
Speaker
I'm just curious.
00:02:22
Speaker
It's the most interesting flavor of tea that I've ever had. When I first moved here, I did kendo, which is like a Japanese sword fighting kind of. Which, okay, that's cool. I did Japanese sword fighting and usually for like sports things, people drink this barley tea and at first I absolutely hated it, but
00:02:46
Speaker
As it's like super stinking hot, like 32 degrees Celsius. I don't know how many degrees Fahrenheit that is. I am a terrible American.
00:03:01
Speaker
I'm sweating in this like heavy, heavy gear with this helmet and these gloves and basically any sort of cold beverage was preferable to dying. So I quickly came to love this barley tea that tastes like
00:03:18
Speaker
If you smelled a bag of like barley, but took out the alcohol, does that make sense? I think so. Like hoppy, almost sort of not really hoppy though. A little bit hoppy. Yeah, a little bit of hoppy, but then it's like grainy at the same time, like wheat almost.
00:03:42
Speaker
It's like those biscuits. I think we get them here. We get these like biscuits here, like wheat, barley, I think they might even be barley biscuits actually. So I guess it's like that, but in a tea, that's so interesting. If I ever, if I ever make it over to Japan, I will make sure to look out some barley tea. Well, and again, you just happen to, to slip in there casually that you do Japanese sword fighting. So is there something you still do? How did you get into that?
00:04:09
Speaker
So I don't do it anymore because I don't have, I feel so silly saying this, but this is what it's called, a dojo close by to me. But when I was, when I first moved here, I, you know, was young, 22, just turned 23 year old, brand new teacher. And I was trying to like,
00:04:33
Speaker
make friends with the other teachers and also connect with my students. And I decided to pick Kendo, which is Japanese sword fighting because I thought it looks really, really cool. And the teacher was really nice. And it also helped me practice my Japanese. So I did I practiced for about four years and then I made it to a level called it's called Shodan, which is the level right after the beginner level.
00:05:01
Speaker
No, no, no, it's fine. You made it to show, showdown. Whoa, showdown. Whoa, I know, right? Made it to that level? Oh my goodness. Pretty crazy. But right after the beginning, the important word there is after the beginner level. See? So you're both, you're both the beginner.
00:05:20
Speaker
Very cool. Oh, that's very cool. I used to, I did sword fighting, not Japanese sword fighting. I did like, it was medieval European sword fighting. It was really fun, but also it's such a workout. Like you do it.
00:05:34
Speaker
You think, oh, this is going to be really cool and really, well, really cool that shows how nerdy I am, but this is going to be really cool doing sword fighting and everything. But my goodness, lifting, I mean, I don't know how, they probably only weigh like a kilo or something, but still lifting and swinging around and doing things, and you have to do it at arm's length and do all these other things.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, my arms, the day after, were killing me. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it's great for your posture. Yeah, and core strength. Maybe I should try and do it again. I'm not sure they have one in the tiny little German village. Maybe I should stop one. They have a table tennis club.
00:06:14
Speaker
similar, right?
History and Pirates
00:06:16
Speaker
And you mentioned that you are trained as a teacher, but you worked as a history teacher for a while as well then, because I imagine you are interested in history.
00:06:31
Speaker
How did that start? How did the interest in that particular topic start? I was a history hater because my dad is an absolute history lover, just a history buff. Every family vacation that we ever went on, it was always
00:06:48
Speaker
always history themed. And so we'd get dragged to these battlefields and we'd get dragged to these memorials and things like that. My brother and I are always like, dad, can't we go to a theme park like everybody else? No, it's good for you. Turns out he was right. It is good for us.
00:07:08
Speaker
So my dad is really fascinated with military history, but he also loves pirates. He loves pirates. And once I think I was in junior high school and I finally made the connection that pirates are a part of history. And I was like, dad, why did you not tell me pirates are history? I thought,
00:07:35
Speaker
War was the only thing about history. He was like, no, no. And at the time, we lived in Virginia. And so he took me to the Blackbeard Festival. And I was like, oh, wow.
00:07:50
Speaker
So that started my love of history, was pirates. My dad, yeah. Which yeah, it's funny, they had a, I guess, yeah, for some reason I always think of pirates as being quite a European thing, because I guess I think of all those films where they have the like strong Somerset accent of like, oh yes, laddie, you know?
00:08:12
Speaker
He obviously was a farmer from the east country in an earlier life. But I guess, actually, there's the Pirates of the Caribbean famously set in Central America, and there's probably lots of pirates based in America. Yeah, American pirates, there's Japanese pirates, Chinese pirates, so many different types of pirates. So pirates were my historical gateway drug.
00:08:36
Speaker
Well, and how lucky we are that you were introduced to pirates because otherwise we might never have your wonderful podcast, which indeed I think I've listened to your episode about Japanese. Is it Japanese pirates? I did one episode. I have yet to do an episode on Japanese pirates, which I really need to, but I did do an episode on a Chinese pirate who is arguably the greatest pirate of all time. And she's a lady.
Time Travel to the Yayoi Period
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah. Which funnily enough, I listened to that one and then I listened to another podcast, You're Dead To Be, and they featured the same person. And I was like, I already know all this because I listened to TK's podcast.
00:09:09
Speaker
Who was that? It was fun to hear things. And as of course this is a time travel podcast. If you could travel back in time, apart from to the fire, not fire, but in festival, back in festival, if you could travel back in time, where would you go and why? I would go back to the Yayoi period in Japan, which is around the like one to four hundreds.
00:09:31
Speaker
And this is the period like after the prehistoric period of Japan when there are kingdoms forming. And there's an Empress called Empress Himiko who is kind of like an Arthurian character who maybe she was a real person, maybe she wasn't a real person. And if she was a real person, she would be Japan's first
00:09:59
Speaker
centralized ruler. And that has many a historian up in arms because the Japanese history is quite patriarchal as a lot of history is. So having the first empress of Japan be a woman, be like freaking crazy. So
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah, but it's still like a matter of debate. Like I said, people haven't looked into it much or are they just not ready?
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, people have looked into it. There's not hardly any records from the Japanese perspective because Japan at that time, their only written records were on like turtle shells and rocks and stones and stuff like that. But China was doing a lot of trade with Japan. And in China's like primary sources, their records at the time, they talk about the kingdom of law being the land of the
00:11:01
Speaker
this one queen. So it wasn't an emperor, it was an empress. And also she's in Japan's semi-historical, semi-mythological records called the Nihon Shoki. And it's like the oldest
00:11:22
Speaker
written record in Japan. So she's also in there, but there's no like archaeological evidence of her. And that's the thing that people are like, gotcha, no archaeological evidence about her, just written evidence. But it was like a few thousand years ago. Yeah, exactly. We haven't found it clearly.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah, no, that is really interesting. And also, if she was Empress of the whole of Japan, like what we know of as Japan at that point, that's a pretty big actual area to be, especially at that time period. Yeah, well, if she was real, she wouldn't have been the Empress of the whole of all of Japan. So sorry for that confusion. But at the time... It's probably not accurate, to be honest. But I know absolutely nothing about the history of a lot of Asian countries, especially Japan. That's okay. That's what I'm here for.
00:12:14
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. So it was like the biggest group that had formed in Japan at that time. So there were like, there were little, little groups and she would have been in charge of the biggest of the little groups. Okay. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Oh, interesting. Well, yeah, indeed. That's, I mean, that's a great answer. That sounds like a fascinating person to go back and then, you know, make sure to take a camera with you. Take a picture. Say, well, here we go.
00:12:43
Speaker
Oh, does he ask her to bury like a little time capsule? Yeah, I was here on a small rock. Yeah, exactly. Little selfie engraved selfie.
00:12:56
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for joining me on my tea break today. Very excited to have you
A Journey to 1700s Japan
00:13:01
Speaker
here. And before we look at more detail at today's object, let's first journey back to the 1700s. This is, I think, the shortest journey we've ever made. Last month we went to the 1100s and I was thinking, wow, this is so short. Now we're going to the 1700s. I mean, goodness. A cluster of islands that we call Japan.
00:13:19
Speaker
It's spring. The hills are covered with the soft pink colour and the sweet perfume of the cherry blossom. We're in a small town, walking along the dusty main road, admiring the flared roofs, the hanging murals, the sliding doors opening into wide, friendly rooms. Several people are walking past. We take a moment to watch them, admiring the colourful drape of the clothing, the loosely knotted hairstyles. One of the men pauses, reaching down to his belt and patting the sash around his waist with a sudden expression of mild panic.
00:13:47
Speaker
His fingers touch a small, simple box hanging by a cord, which is tucked into his sash and kept in place by what looks like a wooden ball. On closer inspection, however, we see that it is not in fact a ball, but a very sweet, intricately carved, curled-up rabbit. Looking relieved, the man touches the box at the rabbit one last time, gives a nod, then hurries on after his companions.
00:14:08
Speaker
So today we are looking at something called, now let me see if I can pronounce this correctly, Netsuka? Netsuka, good job. And we'll get into the details soon, but first we're going to have a very quick break. So talk to you in a minute.
00:14:24
Speaker
Welcome back everybody. So something that I usually like to do in these episodes is look at the most asked questions on the internet about this object courtesy of Google search. In order to see what other people might want to know about the objects that we talk about.
Netsuke: Art and Functionality
00:14:40
Speaker
Sometimes this yields very few results, which I'm always slightly disappointed in because people apparently don't know about these objects. But actually, Netsuka have a lot of questions about them. So that's quite nice. And seeing as we have TK here, I thought this is the perfect time to find the answers to all of your burning questions. So the first question actually was Netsuka pronunciation, which we've dealt with. That's done.
00:15:02
Speaker
But the second question is, what does Natsuki actually mean? And I have seen on your Instagram that you've been acing all of your Japanese exams. So I imagine you'll be able to tell us. Yeah. So Natsuki, so is made up of two different kanji.
00:15:20
Speaker
ne and tsuke. So ne is not often used. It is a kanji that means root. And then tsuke is used quite often like tsukeru as the verb which means to affix. So it's a root one uses to affix different things. Interesting. Which
00:15:43
Speaker
relates a little bit because I sort of mentioned it slightly in the time travel segment, but indeed how I was also really curious when I first saw these amazing things. So in the museum somewhere, I was thinking, what are these? These are so cool. And I had never heard of them before. And I was really struggling to work out how they were worn. But was I correct? In my time travel, sometimes I'm correct in these things. And sometimes the guest goes, yeah, so not really. This is actually what it means.
00:16:12
Speaker
But do you know how they were worn or how they would have been used? Yeah, yeah. So basically, the Netsuke works in one of two ways. So one, it's a counterweight for the little bag that's called Sagemono. So kimonos are beautiful, and they are amazing, and I love to wear them. However, the men of the Edo period, which is the time period that we're talking about right now,
00:16:40
Speaker
suffer from the same fashion tragedy that women often face now, which is a lack of pockets.
00:16:52
Speaker
Bait of my life. The feeling of finding a dress that you like that has pockets. There's nothing like it. And it has pockets. Exactly. In lieu of pockets, most Japanese men who were of some sort of affluence, which we can talk about that a little bit later, had a sagemono. Sagemono is like a little pouch. Sometimes it was a little box.
00:17:22
Speaker
and it was attached to the netsuke, which was attached to a little string. And so the netsuke was either tucked through the sash called an obi and used as like a little stopper, like a little counterweight to stop the saguemono from like falling out. Or there was another type of netsuke, which was more like a little hook. So if you just imagine like a fish hook, but way more pretty.
00:17:53
Speaker
That would hang from the inside, would hang on the little obi. And yeah, that's how they were used. Interesting. Which actually makes a lot of sense. Are they still used in that way today as well? Because that seems very practical.
00:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, they're super practical. So there is a very small community of people in Japan that still wear kimono on a daily basis. And usually they are in the entertainment industry as in like they do either tourist
00:18:26
Speaker
thingies where they put people in kimono or they do tea ceremonies or something like that. Some kimono sellers wear kimono every day. Some people that work at very high end Japanese restaurants will wear kimono not as their daily attire, but as their work attire. But there are some people who do wear kimono every day.
00:18:52
Speaker
So those people still use them. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, that's very cool. Oh, nice. So they're also still still being made as well. They are still being made. There are few
Craftsmanship in Kyoto
00:19:06
Speaker
you know, traditional craftsmen and women now, but it's actually, it's so interesting because there is a traditional art school in Kyoto that is responsible for training a bunch of different craftspeople in traditional Japanese art. And there is a netsuke department at that university in Kyoto and a lot of people,
00:19:39
Speaker
So a lot of foreign people, a lot of people who are not Japanese will come to this university to learn these traditional arts, which is super duper cool.
00:19:50
Speaker
Interesting. Oh, so it is also open, because I'm, I don't know, I'm thinking of, for example, the Maori culture, where you have the... Oh, what are they called? The power necklaces? And technically, only a Maori crafts person is allowed to carve the jade palette, like anyone can do the boat on, but only a Maori is allowed to the jade is, but that's not the case in Japan. There's also not a kind of taboo with materials or anything like that.
00:20:15
Speaker
Yeah, no. So Japan has a really interesting culture where people are just excited that you're excited about Japanese. Yeah, it's really cool. So there's even with, you know, like religious things, people are very open about sharing that. Not all people, granted, but there are no like rules against people who are not Japanese learning
00:20:45
Speaker
all aspects of Japanese culture. Interesting. I need to look up this, I'm going to find it and put it in the show notes, this department of carving. It's really cool. It's like the carving department and within the carving department there is the netsuke department.
00:21:07
Speaker
Wow. Okay. Interesting. Wow. So you can, anybody can enter into this university, but the only caveat is you have to speak Japanese. Right. Yeah. Which is quite a, yeah. Although to be fair, I went to school in Australia for a while and there the two options were French or Japanese, which, because I guess it's equally close to both lands, right? So it was, so I did do one year of Japanese when I was like 13, but I can't remember.
00:21:37
Speaker
What can I, I'm trying to think now if I can remember any phrase. Do you remember Denua Bangoa? Oh, Denua Bangoa! What's your number? Exactly! Which sounds really sus, that that's the only phrase I can remember, but I swear, it's very innocent. It's just because we have to learn all of the, you know, what's your name, where do you come from, and then, weirdly, what's your telephone number, because apparently that's very important.
00:22:00
Speaker
Anyway, so, and I can check out, what was it? Ichinii-san-shi-go-shoku-hachi-na-na. I can't remember the rest. I'm so close. Na-na-hachi, you're so close. Na-na-hachi. You did a great job. Which, you know, is a really important message everyone listening in who can't speak Japanese. That was, you know, profit, prophecy, really philosophical. It wasn't me just counting very badly today.
00:22:30
Speaker
Anyway, back to the Netsuka. So, unfortunately, anyone who's interested in carving, or learning about carving that will indeed have to speak Japanese, which, you know, if you're really interested in learning about the culture, that's essential anyway, I would argue, knowing kind of a bit about it.
Netsuke's Historical Influence
00:22:45
Speaker
And so they're still made today, but are they, I guess, because they've been around for so long, I mean, I imagine they were even around before the 1700s, that was sort of a random
00:22:54
Speaker
date that I picked because it seemed to be within the period that they did exist. But I guess they were around for even longer. Are they considered valuable today because of that? Or is it just something that it's like, oh yeah, it's like a belt buckle or something. It's just a functional item.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yes and no. So there are some netsuke that are just there for tourists. They're mass produced, they're made of plastic, and they're modeled after famous netsuke.
00:23:26
Speaker
So they're like, what, like five bucks a pop or 10 bucks a pop or something like that. However, there are some that are incredibly expensive and some that are, they had to be taken out of circulation from collectors because they're made of ivory. So they had to be relinquished. Is that the right word? Relinquished, I believe.
00:23:55
Speaker
I mean, I would say that, but. I believe it was like in 2013 when there was like a whole big thing about ivory and the ivory trade that people were given a certain amount of time to like relinquish their ivory goods, their ivory products to the nearest museum. I don't know.
00:24:22
Speaker
But that's because I feel like when I learned about it anyway, there was something like if it had been collected before a certain date, that it was considered kind of okay, because it was during the legal time. But no matter what it was, you had to give it back in Japan.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't know if it was no matter when it was, but I know there was a big reclamation of ivory. And the most expensive Netsuke was sold in the UK for $441,300 in December of 2022. And that was made of ivory.
00:25:07
Speaker
And it was sold in the UK and there was like some special rules about selling it because it was made of ivory. Like it had to get approved about something or whatever. But yeah, that's the most expensive Netsuke ever purchased. I mean, that is crazy. And it was just a little, there's not big either, really. You want to guess what it was? Guess what it was. Guess what the Netsuke form was.
00:25:35
Speaker
Is it something like phallic? Something cute? Something cute and so silly and so human. It's wild. I don't know. A shaggy little puppy dog. A teeny tiny little puppy dog. For 400,000.
00:26:01
Speaker
I think it was like four centimeters tall and like three centimeters wide or something like that. Just teeny tiny little puppy. Oh my goodness. Do you know where, when it was from? I mean, was it particularly old or? Yeah. Yeah. It was from the Edo period. There wasn't a precise date on it, but somewhere between the 16 and the 1700s. Okay. Then I couldn't, I mean to guess me, but still.
00:26:27
Speaker
That's a lot for a little carved puppy dog. I mean, I'm sure they could have found a little carving of a puppy dog somewhere else. But then you wouldn't have the history, you wouldn't have the story. So I guess, you know, I can, I can kind of understand it. But and I mean, that's how they're perceived in the in the present. But I guess in the past, if it was just the standard way to wear your little the little pouch that you mentioned, I'm afraid I forgot what it's called the little pouch or the little bag.
00:26:53
Speaker
Would they also, I mean, I guess they wouldn't have been perceived as valuable back then or kind of special status objects or anything like that, or would they? Yeah, so the history of the netsuke is pretty cool. So in terms of like a status item, so at the beginning of the Edo period and a little bit before, around the beginning of the 1600s, they started to be made for the merchant class.
00:27:20
Speaker
During the Edo period, there was relative peace. Right before that was the Warring States period. So everything was like calming down. People started to like, you know, do merchant thingies and trade and art was bringing up. You can tell. You got a history teacher, it's so great. Merchant thingies.
00:27:46
Speaker
You got to keep those kids interested. Don't get too technical. Don't you mean that? Thank you for understanding me. So people, you know, people were starting to make more money and move around and have things that they needed to carry. So the netsuke were created to hold up the saguemon out those little pouches.
00:28:14
Speaker
And at the beginning, they were just like very simple, really, really simple things. And then when the merchant class started to get more money, more money than the samurai class, because the samurai class were on fixed incomes and not all of them were making lots of money, but the merchants were able to make a lot more money because they were doing merchanty things.
00:28:50
Speaker
So their income was going up, so they started wearing more fancy clothes and more flashy things, more silks instead of cottons, more intricate patterns on their stuff. And the netsuke also started to become more fashionable. But then the Tokugawa shogunate, not important, you don't need to know who that is for this situation, just know that
00:29:10
Speaker
Not a fixed MRI thing. Not a standardized thing.
00:29:17
Speaker
him and his group of samurai were like, we don't like it. That you guys are dressing all nice and fancy and we're over here, not fancy at all. So no more fancy things for you. You cannot wear any fancy things. You can only wear XYZ, you know? The fancy stuff is for us samurai. So what happened is Netsuke became kind of like
00:29:46
Speaker
the secret way to flaunt your money. Does that make sense? So you could be like, yes, I know I'm just wearing plain cotton, but check out my little puppy dog here.
00:30:04
Speaker
Okay. So it was, yeah, sort of a, yeah, a subtle, a subtle hint at the wealth. Exactly. Exactly. Subtle hints at the wealth. You know, people, humans are like middle school students.
00:30:19
Speaker
All humans are like middle school students, in my opinion. You kind of have not to do something. They're going to find a way to do that thing. And they're going to do it so creatively and so annoyingly well that you're going to be like, I can't punish you for this because you're doing exactly the thing that I said that you shouldn't do, but in a way that I didn't anticipate. Yeah, find the loophole. Exactly.
00:30:49
Speaker
But that's, I mean, does that mean that people were kind of, if they weren't then necessarily allowed to buy them from places where people making their own netsuke, or were they still being carved by like, or were they ever carved by specialists actually, or were they homemade things? Yeah, sometimes at the beginning there were, you know, there were homemade things, but they were usually carved by specialists. And because the netsuke didn't fall under the rules for fashion,
00:31:17
Speaker
They were able to be made by specialists and made really extravagant, really amazing, like really cool stuff. Oh, good. Nice. And then made from, so you've already mentioned ivory. I believe some were made from wood that I had seen, like those kind of main materials, was there anything else?
00:31:40
Speaker
Yeah, so pretty, pretty much any carvable item was used to make the netsuke. So ivory, wood, stone, some metals were used. Also nuts, like little nuts. People used little tiny nuts to make.
00:32:01
Speaker
Cool little netski. That's really cute. Interesting with the metal. So that would have been cast, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them were cost. Some of them were were carved. Some of them there's like there's one really famous one that's more on the contemporary side. That is what are those big ground peppers, I think they're called.
00:32:28
Speaker
Oh wow. Yeah they're like these big orange pepper looking things that are really famous in Japan and there's one that's made of like glass and metal and has like a semi-precious stone in the center of it that's like pretty famous.
00:32:47
Speaker
So yeah, that's really cool. Very cool. Which I guess, and I mean, but I suppose not everything could have been used as a netsuke. They have like a special thing that makes them a netsuke rather than just a cool carving, like a glass pepper. Yeah.
00:33:02
Speaker
So the difference between just like a regular little tiny statue and a netsuke is basically the two holes at the bottom. That's it. Makes sense. Yeah. Cause you've got to attach the cord to attach the, and I forgot it again. Sangimo no? Yeah, Sangimo no. You're doing it. You're getting it. I can add it to my Japanese repertoire and ask for their phone number, count very badly to 10 and say, Hey, this random little pouch that probably isn't in use anymore.
00:33:30
Speaker
Very cool. And just to double back a little bit, because at the beginning we mentioned men are the ones that are using the Netsuke. Is there a reason that women weren't, were they not allowed to use them? Was it kind of a gender divide thing? It was less that they weren't allowed to use it and more that kimonos, the kimonos that women wore have long sleeves.
00:33:53
Speaker
So the men have long sleeves, but there's a lot of inner kimonos. So if you picture kimono, it looks like a tee with like a really fat top part. And inside of those sleeves, they could be used as pockets because, yeah, it's just a big giant pocket. So that's where a lot of women would carry their stuff. But some women did use sagimono and the netsuke.
00:34:23
Speaker
But it just wasn't as popular. But that's amazing that the Japanese culture got it right, Ben. The men were the ones without the pockets. Listen up, rest of the world. This is how it should be. Let it change, everybody. OK, well, we're going to have another very quick break so that those who are listening in can have an opportunity to top up their tea. But we will be back soon.
00:34:49
Speaker
Well, welcome back, everyone. I hope the teacups are now fuller and the biscuit jar emptier, although actually, considering the time of year, maybe you're already moving on to your mulled wine and been surprised. Ooh. Oh man, I need to get some. Right.
00:35:04
Speaker
So we did already introduce TK a little bit at the beginning of the section. We mentioned that she is a trained teacher. She's living in Japan, but maybe we could go into a bit more detail because although you are a qualified teacher, I believe at the moment you're not actually teaching history. Yes. Yeah. So I'm not actually teaching history right now. My teaching career has been quite interesting.
00:35:25
Speaker
So I was an international school teacher for a while, but because of my husband's work, we've moved to a place that does not have any international schools. So I am now an online teacher of many things. Yeah. Okay, interesting. And so because I know that quite a lot of people, I mean, I
00:35:47
Speaker
I know some historians, but I do. I obviously mainly work with archaeologists. And so many people, I imagine it's similar in history, though. It's very difficult if you're interested in the topic of archaeology or something related. Once you graduate, then find something to be able to, for example, teach it and things. And even then, the kind of job opportunities are not always there. So you find yourself having to do something else and then kind of
00:36:14
Speaker
do your hobby on the side. So which you have managed to do very successfully with the podcast, I would argue. But how how do you find that balance? Or how do you kind of? Yeah, how did you get to that point? So
00:36:31
Speaker
I mean, it took a while. So after, forgive me for a small, small story right now. So I graduated university with my degree in history and then my certification in teaching. And for one year I was a history teacher. I was
00:36:54
Speaker
seventh grade, which is middle school, first year middle school, world history teacher. And I loved it and it was great. And then they offered me the job and they were like, you can do it. And I freaked out and I moved to Japan. So, so relatable.
00:37:15
Speaker
And then, you know, I started teaching English at a super science high school, which is focused mostly on science and then another school focused mostly on like global studies. So that's what I did for four years. And then I moved to an international school for
00:37:35
Speaker
two years and I was the special education coordinator, kind of. It was my, hey, we're a very small school and we don't have the kind of funding to have an actual special education coordinator. Could you also do this in addition to being a fourth grade home room teacher? And I was like, sure.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's how I've got many jobs, actually. I know you're already doing this and this and this, but would you mind? So, you know, when I, when it was COVID time, and I had been teaching, I think for four and a half years, I had been doing nothing with history for four and a half years. I was like, hey,
00:38:22
Speaker
I really like history and I'm really sad right now. So why not start a podcast? And that's what I did. So I told that whole story to get to the point of you can start doing the thing that you want to do at any point in time, even if you're doing something completely opposite to what it is you want to be doing, if that makes sense.
00:38:50
Speaker
And the only way that I know with my ADHD brain on how to balance all that is planning the ever loving bejesus out of my day.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yep, and sitting here next to my little planner where she dropped a lot of things because two days ago someone said, I'm so sorry, I forgot about our meeting today. And I looked and went, it's not written in my diary, therefore it doesn't exist. Exactly, exactly.
00:39:24
Speaker
Plan, plan, plan, plan. If it is a paper diary that works for you, if it is Google Calendar that works for you, if it is a combination of both, which is what I use. It's amazing. So planning, planning, planning, planning, and then get a lot of caffeine in your system.
00:39:54
Speaker
But no, I feel very... So I also taught English for a while after finishing my studies. I ended up doing Masters in Archaeology and then I basically couldn't find a job and was trying things and I had
00:40:08
Speaker
been qualified to teach English for a while because I had done that before. So I thought, Oh, I'll do that. And I, I really love teaching. I mean, that's also why I do this podcast. And that's why I do very social media things. I can imagine doing the same. And, but yeah, I had the same thing that it was like, but I, yeah, I love teaching, but
00:40:24
Speaker
It's passion, my passion is not the English language, necessarily. Or, you know, it's not the thing. What I want, what I would love to do is, you know, do this kind of teaching. So that's how it kind of started. And I imagine a lot of people are in, are in that situation. So indeed, yeah, this is a nice, I think it's a good way. And I think that yeah, TK demonstrates very nicely how you can and you your episodes are released quite regularly as well, right? Like for two weeks, I believe.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I do I go by season so every week for about 10 between 10 and 12 weeks just depending on how many like guests and episodes I have. So yeah, it's like full force for 10 to 12 weeks and then I take a nice long break and then I go back out.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, which is, yeah, probably a better way to do it than I'm doing it, which is just constant every month. Maybe I should do that. I've been wondering whether to do that. Anyway, we'll come back later. But no, I think it's really, yeah, it's a really great example to give. And I mean, history in general, I guess it's, I mean, what would you say is the kind of main important reason for you or your main kind of, what's the word, driving impetus or whatever to
The Importance of Teaching History
00:41:31
Speaker
teach the history?
00:41:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, like I said, when I started my podcast, it was out of loneliness. I was the beginning of COVID. I was in another country. I was away from my family. I wasn't even able to teach at the time, really, because we were still trying to figure out all of the COVID-y-ness. And I
00:41:54
Speaker
I just started looking up things about other plagues and the Spanish flu and things like that, and it made me feel a little bit better.
00:42:09
Speaker
I think it's really important about history is that being a human can be super, super lonely. And when we learn about all of the people that have come before us and have felt the same way, even if a hundred or a thousand years separate us and that other human, it's so nice to think that they thought and felt and had very similar things happen to them. And I think it makes life a little less lonely to know
00:42:37
Speaker
that fact. So I think that's one of the reasons why teaching history and learning history is so important. And another reason that I'm so passionate about history education is that I think knowing things brings understanding and empathy. So understanding another country, another, you know,
00:43:00
Speaker
part of the world's history allows for more empathy, like, excuse me, sorry. I thought you were preparing for your lecture.
00:43:16
Speaker
My husband is Japanese and I'm American and if you know anything about history, even tangentially, the history between America and Japan is not super cool. To put it extremely lightly.
00:43:36
Speaker
So, um, my, my husband and I often go to World War II places, like museums and, and museums. You are your father's daughter.
00:43:53
Speaker
So we've gone together to the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum, and we've gone to the Pearl Harbor Museum and Memorial in Hawaii. And then just three weeks ago, we went to the base where the kamikaze pilots were based and where they flew out of. And my husband and I weaped, like quipped,
00:44:19
Speaker
reading the letters that these pilots wrote. And for the longest time, I was like, why in the heck would anyone be a kamikaze pilot? But now from going to this place, I understand. I understand the history. So that's why I think history education is so important because it
00:44:43
Speaker
It breeds empathy, I think. No, definitely. Oh, I couldn't agree more. And I can imagine something. I mean, I guess archaeology is generally more involved with longer periods in the past. And so a lot of people can argue, oh, yeah, but it happened thousands of years ago.
The First Samurai: A Woman?
00:44:58
Speaker
It's irrelevant. But I guess something with history is it definitely is. It happened recently enough to still be relevant, really relevant to modern society in terms of even living memory or something like that. So I could not agree more.
00:45:16
Speaker
And in terms of teaching, what would be your favorite topic to teach about? Do you know the question where people are like, if you had to give a TED talk right now, what topic would you do? My TED talk is women's samurai. I know.
00:45:37
Speaker
Because, you know, samurai are like, it's like the manliest man activity that one could possibly do. Hey, my friend, there were many a lady samurai. Interesting. Like, and sort of accept like not sort of rebellious lady samurais on the side, but like respected as part of the samurai class.
00:46:02
Speaker
Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And if I may be a little bit spicy, some people very much do not agree, but it is arguable that the first samurai was a woman. See, the more I hear about Japan, women had pockets. The first leader was an empress. The first samurai was also a woman, I mean.
00:46:27
Speaker
Pretty progressive, I would say. Do you happen to have a podcast episode out already about that summer? My friend. I have three.
00:46:43
Speaker
I have one about the general samurai women, I have one about Tomoe Gozen, and then I have one about this woman named Empress Jingu, who may or may not be the first samurai, but you didn't hear that from me. I feel like I've heard that name before, but maybe I'm imagining things. I think I'm getting confused. Who was the female pirate again? What was her name? That was Cheng Yi Cao.
00:47:06
Speaker
Okay, no, that was someone else that told. That's okay. I mean, that is a very interesting topic, I think. Yeah. Which, out of curiosity, in terms of kind of modern Japanese history, and how
00:47:22
Speaker
it's looked at. Is the study of history in Japan kind of open-minded enough, I guess, to consider these aspects? Or is it something that is still quite closed? It's quite closed still. And not a lot of emphasis is put on women's history, unfortunately. But there's definitely, like,
00:47:47
Speaker
a very small group of archaeologists and historians that are working towards changing that narrative. I forget the man's name, but he works for the University of Tokyo, Waseda, I think. I think he works for them. And he is now working on a project
00:48:12
Speaker
to it might be over now. He either is working on a project or was working on a project to relook at some bones from a
00:48:24
Speaker
a warring states period burial mound where a bunch of like samurais bodies were buried to see if they were women and indeed one third of them were women. Amazing. I mean it makes that's like the all of the you know viking studies that have been done and turns out the load of the graves that were always considered male viking warriors were actually women viking warriors. So it makes sense that the same thing would also be happening in other cultures like
00:48:55
Speaker
And I got an episode about that too. We'll be putting links to all of these episodes, by the way, in the show notes, although also I would just highly recommend going through and listening to them all because there's some really very interesting, I mean, you think this is a specialised episode.
00:49:14
Speaker
Wait until we go and find some of the topics that TK talks about, which I've never heard of before. It's so wild. It's great, though. It's perfect for, you know, breaking the ice at those sort of parties. It's like, did you know, by the way, there were a few of them. Wait, what? If you have social anxiety, sit next to me at a party because I'll tell you some stuff. You just need to listen.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:49:40
Speaker
Well, that marks the end of our tea break today. It sounds like it's been a long, a long week or two for you. So I think you probably need to have a bit of a sit down, rest, drink some barley tea, swing some swords around. But thank you so, so much for joining me today, TK. I really, really appreciate it. It was great to hear from you.
00:49:59
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It was an absolute blast and happy to talk about this very niche, weird topic. I'm so glad I found someone to talk about it with me. If anyone wants to find out more about TK's podcast, her other work, Natsuki, I'm going to say it right at some point.
00:50:16
Speaker
the history of Japan. Anything that we've been talking about, I will try to put all of the links into the show notes on the podcast homepage. I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. If you would like to help support this show and all of the other amazing series that form the Archaeology Podcast Network, you can become a member.
00:50:31
Speaker
You'll be helping us to create even more amazing content. You will also have access to ad-free episodes and bonus content like our quarterly online seminars, which look at different topics within archaeology. And you also get early access to episodes. So then you could already start talking about Female Samurai before other people have even heard about it, which, you know.
00:50:48
Speaker
For more information, check out the homepage, archaeologypodcastnetwork.com, and I'll see you next month for another journey. Bye! I hope that you enjoyed our journey today. If you did, make sure to like, follow, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and I'll see you next month for another episode of Tea Break Time Travel.
00:51:09
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, Dig Tech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.