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10: Is There a Right and Wrong Way to Breathe?
446 Plays3 years ago
Welcome to Episode 10 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Sarah and Laurel tackle the question of whether there is a right or wrong way to breathe, whether or not someone needs help with their breathing, how to help various populations explore their breathing, and whether it’s always bad if our clients and students have pain.
- The problem with belly breathing
- What the respiratory diaphragm is
- Effective tactile cueing to help people to use their diaphragm effectively
- The problem with cueing people to breathe deeply
- Why creating a safe space to downregulate the nervous system takes priority
- Why some people benefit more by externalizing (rather than internalizing) their focus
- How to breathe during strength training
- Breathing and the pelvic floor
- Pranayama versus cardiovascular endurance training
- Should we breathe through our nose or mouth?
Reference links:
Adam Meakins, The Sports Physio
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Movement Logic podcast with yoga teacher and strength coach Laurel Beaverstorff and physical therapist, Dr. Sarah Court.
Purpose and Goals
00:00:14
Speaker
With over 30 years combined experience in the yoga, movement, and physical therapy worlds, we believe in strong opinions loosely held, which means we're not hyping outdated movement concepts. Instead, we're here with up-to-date and cutting-edge tools, evidence, and ideas to help you as a mover and a teacher.
The Breathing Debate
00:00:39
Speaker
Welcome to episode 10 of the Movement Logic Podcast. I'm Laurel Beiberstorff, and I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Sarah Cort. Today, we're talking about breathing. How should we breathe? Is there a correct way to breathe? Are there incorrect ways to breathe? As people who help people learn movement, should we also be helping people learn to breathe too? Here is a bit of what we'll cover. Is there a right and wrong way to breathe?
00:01:08
Speaker
Or is there a right or wrong way to breathe depending on the context? I'm thinking of the question of whether to breathe through the nose versus the mouth, and a lot of times what I understand is that it's better to breathe through the nose.
00:01:23
Speaker
And then belly breathing versus chest breathing, which a lot of times I hear that it's preferable that we breathe and have our belly move and not our chest, or we should have our belly moving or it's wrong. Because we tend to hear that there's a way that's better than the other, we'll be getting into whether or not that is true or what our opinions are on that. What happens to our breathing when people tell us how to breathe?
00:01:54
Speaker
So is it helpful to be told how to breathe? Are breathing techniques helpful? Is it helpful to be instructed on some supposed optimal way to breathe? And is having someone else influence our nervous system, and maybe in some cases override what would be the natural functioning of it, is that
Hosts' Perspectives
00:02:18
Speaker
Helpful, can it be helpful? If you then make changes as the breather, breathing differently to your breathing, do those changes last beyond the interaction with the teacher or the coach, who's ever changing your breathing or helping you change your breathing? Are these more long-term changes and or are they just short-term changes?
00:02:43
Speaker
Sarah and I are coming at this from different perspectives. Sarah is a physical therapist. I'm a strength coach and yoga teacher. Also, we haven't really had this conversation before. We've not discussed this at any length ever. We're coming at this a little bit from our own perspectives, off the cuff, and we're going to come to our own understandings together here for you live or not live. You're listening to this after the fact. It's not a live recording.
00:03:12
Speaker
in the moment in this podcast now today, May 17. Our dialogue is not scripted, in other words, and we're just kind of thinking out loud and bouncing ideas off of each other and sharing what we've learned.
Teaching Breathing Techniques
00:03:24
Speaker
I have mixed feelings personally about telling people how to breathe, even though I've done it for a while as a yoga teacher in various ways, things like marking the breath with
00:03:35
Speaker
Vinyasa flow type sequences of inhale, step your foot forward, exhale, warrior two. Of course, I was taught in my 200 hour training that there is a particular
00:03:47
Speaker
For example, in the sun salutation, moments in the sun salutation where you should be inhaling, moments when you should be exhaling, and specific rules around that. And I've also spent some time talking about breathing and sort of, I would say guiding interoceptive awareness of breathing. So interoception is the ability to pay attention to and notice the details of our inwardly felt experience. I've potentially also
00:04:17
Speaker
facilitated what i have called improved breath mechanics by mobilizing the structures of breath using therapy balls yoga postures things like that but i do still have mixed feelings about telling people how to breathe mostly because i've i've experienced it from the student and being really unhelpful
00:04:40
Speaker
in some cases, and then also helpful in other cases. So I guess my first question for you, Sarah, as a physical therapist, and you also have a background teaching yoga movement, do you fiddle with your patients' breathing mechanics in the clinic? Is this something that you work on with them? I do, and that is the technical term, is fiddling. Fiddle. Yes.
00:05:09
Speaker
I do, but it's a case by case basis. And I, it tends to be, it's not something that I'm automatically
00:05:20
Speaker
drawing every single patient's attention to, especially not in the beginning, but in particular, if I haven't already seen something where it suggests to me that they need some attention to it.
Breathing and Physical Therapy
00:05:34
Speaker
The ones that get this immediate, and I would call it really just the observation of their breathing before I fiddle with it at all, are people who tend to come in with any
00:05:48
Speaker
you know, basically anything from the rib cage up dysfunction. So people who come in with neck pain, people who come in with shoulder pain, people who come in with like headaches, jaw clenching, all that kind of stuff.
00:06:03
Speaker
100 percent in the eval, the first time that I see them, I'm going to be clocking how they're breathing. How do you do that? Can I ask how do you clock how they breathe? I just watch them. Well, it depends on what we're doing, but if I have them going to do some exercise or something, and typically I do it with them lying down because that's the easiest way for me to see how they are breathing.
00:06:26
Speaker
I may give them something to do, and then sort of I'm my second set of eyes. Apparently I have four eyes. One set of eyes is watching them do the thing that I asked them to do, and then the second set of eyes, which, God, that would be helpful to have four sets of eyes.
00:06:44
Speaker
four eyes. I'm also looking at how they're breathing and if I notice something like the only movement is kind of in their upper chest or if I notice that they, I mean it is a fact that people who work a lot in front of computers tend to hold their breath.
00:07:04
Speaker
um because what you tend to do when you're on the computer for a long time and I've seen myself do it and I've seen other people do it is you kind of breathe extremely shallowly and then you take a one big breath like every half hour or something like that which is which is not ideal I mean um but anyway so I watched sort of the the mechanics of how they're breathing and uh and then I might intervene in some way if I think that it is going to
00:07:32
Speaker
make an improvement in how their body is feeling, what they've come in for. What are some of the ways that you work with people on their breathing? That's a great question. It has evolved. It has evolved based on what you're talking about. When I was initially a yoga teacher,
00:07:58
Speaker
I did a lot of like, okay, put your hands on your belly and feel your belly expand when you breathe in and all that kind of stuff. What I have seen in the clinic and with clients out of the clinic is I don't think that calling it belly breathing and emphasizing the belly actually teaches improved use of the diaphragm.
00:08:25
Speaker
because one of the things that I have, and I didn't, it's like, you don't realize things sometimes until you see people do it, but.
00:08:33
Speaker
Also, can you mention what the diaphragm is? Yes. One of the things that I see people do when they do, quote unquote, belly breathing is they use their core muscles to poof their belly out, which is more just like the idea of bracing outwards and pushing your belly muscles out to make your belly, quote unquote, expand. If you think about where your belly button is and just try to push that outwards right now,
00:09:01
Speaker
But that would be like, would that be a diaphragmatic contraction? No, because you don't even have to I can push my belly out. And while I'm talking to you right now, I'm pushing my belly out my I'm not breathing and you're breathing in and out. Yeah, but my breath, I'm doing it too. But my breath is very shallow. So I'm wondering, have I locked my
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah, you can use your diaphragm correctly is the sort of short answer. I see a lot of people do that because what they're responding to is this idea that their belly has to go out. So instead, I just do, you know, however much education I have to do around what the diaphragm is. So your diaphragm is your abdominal diaphragm is your main respiratory muscle. And at rest, it is domed. It sits like a jellyfish kind of shape up underneath your ribs.
00:09:50
Speaker
And when you inhale, it flattens down and the effect of it flattening down expands your entire trunk circumferentially which is one of my favorite long fancy words means we everything all the way around your entire circumference.
00:10:08
Speaker
And then when you exhale, it domes back up again. And that's the basics of what your diaphragm does. So generally, instead of saying, okay, we're gonna bring the breath into your belly or something like that, I have the person start to put their own hands on their ribs, where the diaphragm is, or I put my hands on their ribs and I tell them, I want you to move my hands out when you inhale.
00:10:31
Speaker
put them on the side of their ribs yeah on the side in the front you know a lot of time on the side and then i have them do it and then we expand into like okay touch different parts of your ribs in your upper chest feel the back of your ribs into the table feel that expand i'll put them in child's pose and i'll have them reverse it so that they feel because then the front of your rib cage doesn't move as much in the back moves a lot more so just getting the person to understand the
00:10:55
Speaker
how to um how to how to use it's like anything it's right it's like training any muscle how do i use this muscle effectively and a lot of people don't know where the endless they were a singer or you know how to yoga practice something you don't really know much about their diaphragm and breathing and a lot of people breathe in a very shallow way just kind of into their upper chest and the thing is like
00:11:17
Speaker
nobody's not breathing, right? That is a true statement. I'm going to put it on a t-shirt. Nobody's not breathing. So the idea of a right and a wrong breath to me is a little too black and white and it's more sort of like, well, if I am going to fiddle with someone's breathing, why am I fiddling?
Breathing and Physiology
00:11:38
Speaker
And what is the goal, right?
00:11:40
Speaker
Trina, our friend Trina, her husband Farzad, who is a medical doctor, his, what are you saying about time? His big quote was always, all bleeding stops eventually. And so for our purposes, we could say all breathing stops eventually, but literally nobody's not breathing. They're not walking into your yoga class, they've held their breath their entire life until now, right? So it's a question of,
00:12:05
Speaker
having a real goal behind whatever you're choosing to do rather than everyone gets this blanket cue of what you're trying to make happen. It's not always, some people can understand and get the ribs to move and all that stuff, but I think there is certainly for some of the patients that I see, sometimes there's a psychological component around breathing.
00:12:39
Speaker
And what's that song, waiting to exhale, right? There's something around for a lot of people, their physical experience as a reflection of their experience of their life. And for some people, breathing more deeply, quote unquote, is actually a dangerous thing, psychologically, right? Because nothing is safe in their world. And if you breathe in deeply, you might relax and relaxing is not safe because for whatever reason, right?
00:13:04
Speaker
So by that, I guess, logic, which I completely identify with and feel that it's true for me, is it in helping someone use their ribs more or to move breath via the ribs more? Are we
00:13:27
Speaker
maybe primarily working to create some type of safe environment for that person first and foremost, because if the safety isn't there, then what are we? Actually, what are we teaching? What are we reinforcing within their nervous system? And establishing yourself as a safe person to this person.
00:13:50
Speaker
You know, there's obviously levels of this. I mean, you know, I had a client that I worked with a long time ago who had been a victim of sexual assault and I had been working with her previous to it. And then afterwards, when we were working together, what we did completely changed and there were entire sessions where we just laid down on the floor next to each other and breathed for an hour. And that was it because that was what needed to be
00:14:23
Speaker
That's the word I'm looking for. For her to get her autonomy over her body back, that's where it was going to start. But that's obviously an extreme case, and that's not something that you necessarily are even knowing about if you're teaching a group class. But you can assume that a large percentage of your students have had sexual trauma, especially when you're working with majority female populations.
00:14:51
Speaker
I think that it's like, oh gosh, is it one in five or one in? It's something like that. It's like one in four, one in five women have experienced sexual trauma, sexual assault. Yeah. Yeah. And other types of trauma as well. So this idea of manipulating the mechanics of breathing via some type of external intervention, whether that be instruction, hands on,
00:15:22
Speaker
teaching someone how to use a prop differently versus facilitating an environment of safety. I think these are very different, but very much related. And I think that when I think back on all of the bad experiences I've had with learning to breathe differently on various levels,
00:15:52
Speaker
The environment was not safe. Yeah. You probably didn't. For me, it wasn't safe for me. For sure. And that is such an individual thing. And I think as well, I've also had experiences that didn't feel good. And I think it does also go back to like, oh, well, I didn't, for whatever reason, I didn't like or I didn't trust the person trying to teach this thing to me. Therefore, I didn't trust what they were trying to make me do. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. So you do work with patients on breathing, especially if you see that type of intervention being a potential piece of the solution puzzle to whatever problem they're coming to you with. And sorry,
Breathing and the Nervous System
00:16:40
Speaker
one other thing I wanted to say, because this is specific to what I do as a PT, but it's not irrelevant to the work that we all do as movement teachers, that more and more I've
00:16:53
Speaker
I'm coming to my own sense in terms of what I see happening for people when they have pain or dysfunction in the way that their body is working, that it's really, like everything about it is really controlled by your brain and your nervous system. So the part of the puzzle of helping someone not have so much neck pain is helping to down-regulate their nervous system
00:17:21
Speaker
so that they're not in such a heightened state and then I'm like okay and now do these like resistance exercises with their neck but they there's so much you know just held tension in their body that that's actually going to have very little positive effect unless we get them into a nervous system state status where their body
00:17:44
Speaker
and really their nervous system is willing to take on some sort of like stress to the system via movement. Yeah. I definitely feel like in my experience as being a student of breathing in various different workshops or whatever classes, that the more relaxed I was able to become in the class,
00:18:09
Speaker
the more the focus on breathing felt beneficial to me in the moment, the more interested I was and curious I became, and the more I felt like the act of breathing in a particular way sort of reinforced the relaxed feeling that I was experiencing. However, I do know that
00:18:32
Speaker
There are many people for which conscious relaxation practices actually create more anxiety and that they really would benefit from externalizing their focus rather than internalizing it. And as soon as we ask people to start breathing in a specific way, we are asking them to internalize their focus.
00:18:58
Speaker
and to interrupt a process that is going on naturally in the background. Right. And so if we're asking people to pay attention to their breathing, we're asking them to internalize their focus. And that inherently is not beneficial to all people. Many practitioners of movement with their various backgrounds benefit more from externalizing their focus. And so maybe to externalize your focus on breath,
00:19:28
Speaker
I guess could be possible, but what would we then focus on? I mean, this is just a question I'm coming up with in the moment, but we could think about tempo and sound of breath because those are potentially not tempo necessarily, although if it's to music or to a metronome, that's an external informant. It's a way to externalize your breath, I guess, and then also the sound of breathing might be
00:19:55
Speaker
something that we breathe out, we hear it through our sense of hearing and then we take in that information as an external thing. I'm just thinking out loud here, but paying attention to say whether the ribs or belly are moving or paying attention to the feeling of air entering through the nostrils and things like that, these are all really internal experiences that
Breath-Movement Coordination
00:20:20
Speaker
that I do think can actually be anxiety producing for some populations of people. Um, I was going to say, you know, one of the things that I actually think is really good about in the, when people are practicing Asana and, and, and timing their breath to the movement, then the movement becomes that external cue because the cue is not read as deeply as you can in this way. It's inhale and step your foot forward. So now I've got to do two tasks at the same time.
00:20:48
Speaker
And that takes a lot of attention. That takes all of my attention in that moment, right? So it's a very, I think, for me at least, it's a good way to kind of force myself into a more present state because
00:21:02
Speaker
I have so many things to do at the same time, thinking about something else. And that's less about trying to control the mechanics of the breathing and more just do this thing and breathe in while you're doing it. Now do this thing and breathe out while you're doing it. And there are mechanical advantages to that as well, not just in yoga, but certainly in strength training. Oh, for sure. Yeah.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, I was gonna, you're mentioning like being being drawn into the present moment by having to focus on manipulating multiple, you know, functions of your body at the same time that being, you know, helpful to you. I think that this reminds me of the fact that there are different levels of experience in every modality. And like, we're sometimes working with people who are brand new to yoga or brand new to strength training. And then we're sometimes working with people who've been at it for
00:21:51
Speaker
many, many years and maybe teach it. And these two different populations, if we could call them that, would benefit from different levels of instruction, different detailing of instruction. And so my approach has often been with beginners to strength training, as well as beginner yoga students. Although I don't encounter as many beginner yoga students anymore, is that
00:22:16
Speaker
can just keep breathing, right? Just breathe. Just keep breathing. Don't hold your breath and just keep breathing. And then as we get more familiar, we get past the initial learning, kind of like the cognitive overload of learning the movement. And we get into more of that associative stage of like, okay, this is not demanding 110% of my energy to even be able to follow the
00:22:40
Speaker
movement cues to physically put my body into whatever position I'm being asked to put it in or lift the weight. Now let's actually dig a little bit deeper and go a layer toward a little bit more nuance and think about how we're breathing. And so for strength training, it's exhaling at the sticking point. Maybe in very heavy lifts holding the breath, although I have
00:23:10
Speaker
not had a need to teach students how to hold the breath, although students will often ask, like, should I be holding my breath? And they're doing a fairly heavy lift. And my answer is like, so for example, my pull up program, it's like, yeah, you may find yourself naturally holding your breath. And that's not wrong. It's your body's
00:23:29
Speaker
strategy which you will potentially improve upon that strategy and might find yourself holding your breath less or more depending on what is your body's strategy to create stability, intra-abdominal
Breathing in Strength Training
00:23:43
Speaker
pressure like pressure within the abdomen, intra-abdominal pressure by basically creating
00:23:52
Speaker
uh more rigidity right so can you sorry what is exhale at the sticking point? So exhale at the sticking point yeah thank you is uh for in traditional strength training uh we're moving a weight typically toward and away from the floor or um we're moving a weight through uh
00:24:16
Speaker
through a ray of movement and within each degree of that ray we're having to overcome more or less resistance depending on what our muscle's mechanical advantage is relative to the resistive force. Okay so this is where like the physics of it come into play but you'll notice that say when you do a bicep curl, which is always the example given,
00:24:41
Speaker
It's like, I don't know why it's like the poster child of strength training. I think everyone can like point at their arm and understand that there's a muscle right there. Mimic the bicep. They know what the bicep is, right? You're doing a bicep curl. Your muscle has your bicep muscles, your elbow flexor muscles have the most amount of mechanical advantage at 90 degrees of elbow flexion. And they have less when your elbow is straight. So getting the bicep curl started is harder from the muscular
00:25:12
Speaker
standpoint. And so then when you're at 90 degrees of elbow flexion, it's a little bit, your muscles are more advantaged to be able to work. However, then at that 90 degrees of elbow flexion, the resistive force is also, if you think of the resistance as the opponent to the muscles, it's also your opponent is also incredibly advantaged. In other words, the resistance is highest at that 90 degrees. So it's really a good thing that at that range of motion of 90 degrees of flexion, your muscles are able to work
00:25:39
Speaker
the hardest because that's when the resistive force is the greatest. It's fairly easy energetically speaking to just hold a suitcase by your side, which is the beginning of a bicep curl or to hold a bag of groceries. But then you would never carry a bag of groceries at 90 degrees of elbow flexion because you have to work really hard to hold something like that.
00:26:04
Speaker
for the reason of the resistive force having quite a bit of leverage over you. So when you're doing a bicep curl you might exhale through that 90 degrees of flexion because that's when the going is getting tough and that's when the tough need to get going. And that's the sticking point? Which is an advertisement for four trucks.
00:26:23
Speaker
And also an old movie called Romancing the Stone that you may be young for, but there was a song. Oh, no, I'm not. And I believe it was called When the going gets tough and then parentheses, the tough get going. Yeah. And so then this this curve of relative mechanical advantage changes for every exercise. So the deadlift, right, begins from the floor and
00:26:50
Speaker
We have to flex our hips to about 90 degrees and lengthen our hamstrings and lengthen our glutes. And from that place of increased muscle length, we actually have a lower mechanical advantage at those two muscle groups.
00:27:07
Speaker
Then we're having to overcome the inertia of the weight and the resistance, the weight, the mass times gravity of the thing we're lifting. And so that's the sticking point. That's the hardest point because we're most disadvantaged and the resistance is the hardest to overcome. Meanwhile, when we're standing all the way up and just holding on to the weight, we could probably hold that position.
00:27:34
Speaker
you know, for much longer than hovering the weight above the floor in that flexed hip position. So the sticking point is where we want to exhale when the going gets tough toward the end of the set, especially, right? That becomes more important. But in the beginning, when I'm working with beginning weight lifters, you know, it's like, let's actually first focus on pressing the floor down with the feet. Let's work on, um,
00:28:01
Speaker
tempo moving moving at a particular tempo let's work on creating a line of pull and creating a body position that facilitates that that efficient line of pull and then questions start to naturally arise or i start to notice like hey you know it might be helpful if you use your breath in this way after they've
00:28:26
Speaker
learned the exercise, right? And after they've built a level of strength, and their nervous system has gotten used to this type of stress that's being placed on it. In yoga, the breath now is less of a marking of the breath in terms of the flow aspect of it. And I do teach a little bit of flow. And it's more about using the breath as really an invitation
00:28:52
Speaker
to pay attention interoceptively, to pay attention inwardly. And so really the breath is almost a means to an end, right? I'm not trying to change the way people are breathing necessarily, I'm trying to change where they place their mind. But in changing where they place their mind, I may be also changing how they're breathing. Yeah.
00:29:13
Speaker
So those are the two ways that I kind of come at it in both of those modalities. With kettlebells, the breath also plays a role. The movements are faster in many cases because they're ballistic. The breath can actually facilitate explosive strength when used more explosively in some cases in the swing. But all of this is, in my opinion, because people will breathe,
00:29:41
Speaker
And because people need to keep breathing, sometimes the best cue in the beginning is just breathe, keep breathing.
00:29:48
Speaker
And not creating all of this, like I think that a lot of, especially former yoga students, come in with a lot of questions before they've learned anything about a modality like kettlebells or strength, about how they should be breathing right off the bat. And on one hand, it's probably because they're very attuned to their breath. But the way they're gonna be breathing in these modalities is going to be completely different from the modality that they're familiar with. And it's probably,
Foundational Movement Principles
00:30:18
Speaker
a question that they're not going to benefit from exploring. In my opinion, it's more beneficial to really explore these broader brushstrokes of how to hold onto the weight, how to pick it up, how to set it down, what are the actions of the hips, knees, shoulders, the relationship of your body to gravity. Let's start there. And then we'll fill in color inside the lines with stuff around breath.
00:30:49
Speaker
I also have a fair amount of people tell me that they feel like they're bearing down, that they're holding their breath and this is negatively impacting, say, pelvic floor function. Maybe they feel like it's causing them pelvic pain, it's causing excess tension. That's when I start to get a little bit more into the nuances of breath mechanics and I refer them
00:31:18
Speaker
potentially to PTs depending on what they're describing or to other modalities that actually are more geared toward understanding the relationship between breathing in the pelvic floor, which I think is worth exploring in these circumstances specifically.
Promotional Content
00:31:39
Speaker
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00:32:04
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:33:20
Speaker
I was going to say that is another patient population that if they are coming in and public floor or low back or just any sort of like hip pain, you know, some of it is
00:33:35
Speaker
in terms of what I choose to look at first. If someone comes in with hip pain and I spend the hour looking at their breathing, even if I know it's especially relevant, that might not be a situation where they feel like, well, what did she do to it? She didn't even touch my hip. But certainly as part of treatment, looking at the mechanics of the diaphragm and pelvic floor and
00:33:56
Speaker
trying to help the person understand that relationship and potentially even feel that in the movement of their breathing is huge and is always something that I look into with people.
00:34:09
Speaker
You know, I want to talk a little bit about something you're bringing up here, which I think is incredibly relevant to people who teach movement, especially people who teach movement for the purpose of helping solve problems, right? Which is that you have to really get tapped into what your student or patient in your case expects. You want to know, you want to have your finger on the pulse of what they expect you to do and where they expect you to focus your attention. Because if you start to deviate
00:34:38
Speaker
really extremely from those expectations. This creates, I think, a lot of confusion and oftentimes frustration. And so if someone comes in with hip pain, but you get the sense that it's related to their breathing and related to their pelvic floor,
00:34:55
Speaker
you don't immediately go off of the hip narrative and start just exclusively focusing on breathing and pelvic floor, but actually you tend to their hip, right? Is that kind of what you're saying? You don't want to create this feeling of like you're not listening to me and hearing what I'm saying. It's my hip therapist that hurts, not my breathing. What does this have to do with what we're doing? I find that this has been such a huge learning curve for me as a teacher.
00:35:25
Speaker
Two, because say, for example, if I call the class, this is like, if I call the class vinyasa flow and then people come into my class and I'm not letting them flow, they're going to be upset. Right. And so, you know, it just reminds me again of these connections between sort of our worlds.
00:35:49
Speaker
Yeah, and some of it, so as far as like, at what point do I bring in something, whether it's breathing or not, that seems unrelated, some of it depends on the patient that I'm seeing and their sort of innate understanding of how the body works.
00:36:09
Speaker
Sometimes I'll have people come in and they'll say, you know, my neck hurts. And as we dive into it, it's one of the things that we discover is, let's say they take a long walk after the long walk, their neck hurts. I am, you know, depending on the evidence that I have, I am more or less able to say something like, it's coming from your ankle and have them believe me.
00:36:31
Speaker
Right. Or something you're holding your breath while you're while you're walking or something like that. Right. So a lot of it depends on the person in front of me. But, you know, and this is
00:36:43
Speaker
I think it is sort of this thing where we talk about general concepts, but all of these generalities ultimately have to become part of your skillset of looking at, really seeing the person in front of you. And listening. Yeah. And seeing what they, yeah, I mean, I'm using, yes, feeling the person in front of you, using whatever sense, tasting the person in front, no, I'm just kidding. Licking the person in front of you.
00:37:14
Speaker
engaging your treatment based on that. That would be crazy. But actually, I'm in Los Angeles. I bet I could make a fortune. Anyway. Do you follow Adam Meekins, the sports physio on Instagram? He's been posting all of these like insane, wacky, quote unquote, therapeutic treatments that people are actually making money doing. And you are not far off. Listen, I could start an OnlyFans account about therapeutic licking, I'm sure. Yeah.
00:37:44
Speaker
But anyway, yeah. Understanding the person in front of you. And I think part of that, but so let me make my bigger point. Understanding the person in front of you. Understanding that if they came in and they said something like, my neck hurts and massage makes it feel better.
00:38:04
Speaker
They've basically told me half of what I'm going to do in that session, which is I'm going to touch their neck. Right, because that's what they expect. That's their expectation. They already have told me it's going to make them feel better, and my job is to make them feel better in larger and smaller concepts. And they are not wrong. They're not wrong.
00:38:26
Speaker
So yeah, I let them tell me that. Yeah. And then maybe, because part of what you're doing when you're meeting someone for the first time, and they are coming to you and they're saying, I have pain in my body. And this is true for movement teachers, because they get that as well, right? Absolutely true for me, whatever your scope is, I have pain in my body. And I'm looking to you to help me.
00:38:45
Speaker
The first thing that I have to do is make myself trustworthy and make myself seem like someone that can help them. So if they've given me this huge clue that says, if you rub my neck, it's going to feel better, whether they know it or not, that that's what they've done. It would be silly of me to be like, well, what I'm going to have you do is a bunch of just long held static stretches. I mean, maybe that's something that is appropriate for them down the line, but I'm talking about this sort of initial moment.
00:39:15
Speaker
And then I can pull in, you know, hey, let's look at your breathing because, and then I've established myself as a trusted person who knows what you're doing and knows what they're talking about. So they're willing to consider something like breathing, which they maybe didn't have that kind of automatic understanding that it would be related or
00:39:33
Speaker
You know that it could be have anything to do with with how their neck or their ankle or their knee feels But part of it is establishing yourself as a trustworthy person as something of an expert as someone who has helped them right before you start to maybe pull in something that feels perhaps more esoteric or not quite as related and then
00:39:54
Speaker
That way, when it turns out to be related and not esoteric, but actually very tangible, that's just more evidence of you being this trustworthy person. Yeah, and we were talking in the episode about how often you should exercise about increasing compliance, like increasing the likelihood that someone will continue exercising after engaging in some type of exercise program.
00:40:21
Speaker
And one of the things that we mentioned was important was these motivations that are kind of instant gratification or just like known wins that this person understands they like and want.
00:40:36
Speaker
And one of those things for me in strength training is to, in the needs analysis in the beginning of working with someone is to really get an understanding of what they like to do. If they've never done strength training before, I'm listening for what they did, what they did do. So if they did a lot of Pilates, I'm going to guess that they really like to strengthen their core, right?
00:40:57
Speaker
if they did a lot of yoga, I'm feeling like maybe they're going to find a lot of benefit and relevance if I start talking about hamstring strength or if I start talking about like shoulder strength for things like chaturanga and push up, you know, like carry over between chaturanga and push up or handstand. So I'm looking at what is it that they are already interested in based on what they're sharing with me and then actually
00:41:22
Speaker
devoting large portion of their training to continuing to work on those things that they like, probably because they're already good at, right? So that I can then give them things that they're not good at, which they might not like right off the bat, but because I've given them enough of the things to do that they understand the meaning that that is meaningful, they understand why it's meaningful. And it's because it's already meaningful to them. Then I then I create this space, this opportunity to
00:41:51
Speaker
give them something else. One of my long time teachers from Yogas would always say, give them what they want so you can give them what they need. Yes. Kind of a thing. And I think that that is just so true for all human relationships, actually. And a lot of the time, I think what people want is they want to be heard. They want to be understood.
00:42:20
Speaker
And we cannot hear or understand our students or our patients unless we listen. So this is all kind of our tangent away from this idea of breathing. But what I will say, and I think that's what's coming up for me in this conversation, is that there are some students or patients that know that they want to focus on breathing.
00:42:41
Speaker
And they may or may not need to, right? It's like my beginners who come in and are like, tell me how to breathe. I'm like, well, first let's learn how to hinge, right? And then there are the students who come in and they have no idea that some of their problems might be resolved by working on breathing.
00:42:58
Speaker
But they have this other idea of what they need to be doing, right? And you need to give them that. What is breathing? I want to talk about breathing from a little bit more of a, like, let's go back. Let's go way, way back. Like, what is breathing, actually? Because then maybe we can understand sort of what systems we are actually manipulating when we change the way someone is breathing. So what is breathing?
00:43:25
Speaker
Breathing is, from my understanding, the exchange of gas in the alveoli, and I don't even know if I'm pronouncing that word correctly, which are the sacs, the air sacs of the lungs, which are the final generation of, you know, you've got your trachea, your
00:43:45
Speaker
bronchioles that branch off and your beautiful tree branch of lungs right and left side to these little air sacs that maybe you could think of like tiny little grapes full of air and the membrane is so thin and there's this really almost immediate exchange of gases of O2 oxygen with CO2 right from the body that comes out as the exhale and then
00:44:09
Speaker
the O2 coming in as the inhale, but why are we breathing? This exchange of gas is what's happening when we breathe. That's why, but what does that gas do? Why do we need oxygen? Oxygen powers
00:44:32
Speaker
All of our cells. Yes. All of our cells. But the other thing to think about is the relative pH level of your blood. And the impulse to breathe in, my understanding, is actually generated by receptors that are sort of, for want of a better word, tasting how acidic your blood is. Yep. And what creates blood acidity?
00:44:59
Speaker
Carbon dioxide, right? So if you have too much carbon dioxide in your system Your little receptors are tasting it and say we need to get this out of here Yeah, and but you can't exhale if you haven't inhaled. So fortunately the inhale is also useful but part of it is then decreasing the acidity of your blood because System-wide general alkalinity for one of a better term is is
00:45:29
Speaker
optimal. Alkalinity is a reduction in acidity. The breath centers in the brain govern breathing. This is all coming from the brain as well and there are receptors in your body that
00:45:50
Speaker
give your brain that information to output the signal to breathe, and it's automatic, right? Yeah. But it's also something we can control, right? So it's part of the side of our nervous system that is automatic, but it's also side of the nervous system that is within our control to change to a point, right? To a point. And one of my favorite things about breathing is, did you
00:46:17
Speaker
I don't know if this was just my misspent youth or if this was something a lot of people did when they were, I don't know, somewhere between like eight and 12, where we, I don't think I ever actually did it myself. I think I was too chicken, but we would sort of dare each other to hold your breath until you passed out. I did it all the time. Yeah. Okay, good. I mean, there's so many years of my childhood spent holding my breath for as long as possible. Yeah, and so, but that speaks to the automaticity of your body
00:46:44
Speaker
in that your body will be like, hey, dummy, I'm going to make you literally pass out because you are refusing to breathe and we're not going to stay alive if you don't breathe. I never was able to hold out until pass out. We're going to rest control away from you, because it becomes extremely uncomfortable. If you are overriding that discomfort to the level where it's actually becoming problematic, your body will be like, you know what?
00:47:13
Speaker
go away for a minute and it will knock you out so that it can continue to breathe on its own, right? That's the hierarchy of systems in your body that just being like, nope, brain, heart, lungs. Those are some of the ways in which our brain controls the physiological process of breathing, so the neurophysiological aspect of breathing.
00:47:34
Speaker
We've discussed a little bit about the biomechanics, the anatomy, like the parts of our body that are directly involved in breathing, the biomechanics of that, so air comes in through the holes in our face.
00:47:52
Speaker
It travels down a tube, right, into the lungs and then gas molecules are exchanged at the alveoli. And those molecules that are exchanged, CO2, you know, exhaled, and then O2 then enters into the heart, right? So then the heart takes that oxygenated blood and via the arterial system of our body, yeah, we end up having circulation. Circulation is governed by the heart.
00:48:22
Speaker
and also the venous system, but the heart is what sends the oxygenated blood out. So why would, for example, we need to breathe more? Why would we need to breathe faster? Why would we need to breathe deeper? Well, because our body is demanding, for some reason, more oxygen to tissues. In the case of exercise, these are usually the muscles, the working tissues. So,
00:48:50
Speaker
This is where we start to look at how exercise affects respiratory rate and something called tidal volume, which is the amount of air that enters into the lungs and is exchanged on inhale and exhale. When I've been learning about strength training, learning about cardiovascular endurance training through studying for the CSCS, I'm coming to understand that breathing in
00:49:20
Speaker
the mind of a strength and conditioning lens plays a very different role in people's minds than it does say through the lens of yoga. So through the lens of yoga, I think we become really wrapped up in the biomechanics and anatomy of breathing, but don't really consider what the metabolic demands are for breathing because the metabolic demands and yoga are typically very low compared to
00:49:50
Speaker
strength and cardiovascular endurance training. Especially cardiovascular endurance training. That's where we get the elites versus the novices, is their ability to oxygenate their tissues, the working tissues of their body. When we think about changing the way someone is breathing in yoga,
00:50:19
Speaker
we may be kind of okay we want to change the way someone's breathing in yoga right but we're working with a tool asana potentially or pranayama that is incapable of sufficiently metabolically stressing the body in order to create
00:50:41
Speaker
this cardiovascular change or this respiratory change. And this is something I've been thinking about. Because what are we actually trying to change then when we change someone's breathing in yoga? Are we actually trying to strengthen the breathing systems of the body? Or are we potentially, and I say this as a question, are we potentially teaching people
00:51:11
Speaker
how to perform biomechanically a way of breathing that is yogic? Well, I mean, that's a good question. I think it depends on certainly during asana. To me, it is the
00:51:30
Speaker
There's not a metabolic demand, so something about it has to do with other things that you're trying to teach the person. For example, coordination of breath with movement as a means of mental focus. Mental focus. I keep coming back to that.
00:51:48
Speaker
um but certainly with with pranayama practices i mean there are so many and they have just such a wide variety of effects on the body to me again you know typically pranayama practice is is practiced either seated or you know in a particular position that's not changing a lot of the time if you're just focusing on pranayama so it is not a
00:52:10
Speaker
you know, strength and conditioning, oxygen, you know, respiratory rate consideration, and it is a nervous system consideration. And what are we trying to do to the nervous system? Are we trying to rev it up, or are we trying to calm it down? I mean, there's practices, I think it's called barometer, where you kind of buzz through your nose. That's actually really more about like,
00:52:33
Speaker
I mean, my experience of it is it helps to clear out your sinuses because you're literally just vibrating your sinuses, which is kind of great if you have allergies or things like that. So some of the origins of some of those practices are not cardiovascular. They are more, they have other goals or they're working on other systems or something like a breath of fire. Yeah.
00:53:03
Speaker
a nervous system elevation, a sympathetic upregulation quality, which may be what you're trying to induce. There are other breathing practices like where you're counting to the inhale and things like that that are more downregulating and that's what you're trying to induce. It all depends on the person, whether or not any of these are actually calming or downregulating.
00:53:29
Speaker
And it depends not just on the person practicing him, but like who else is in the room and what's going on. And the person asking you to do the thing. I had some of the most painful and anxiety producing experiences in a pranayama program and with a teacher who was very particular about how I needed to sit.
00:53:55
Speaker
and how long I needed to hold my breath, and how long I needed to inhale and exhale. And just, it was very formulaic, it was very prescribed.
00:54:05
Speaker
And it just, I was in pain. Like I couldn't sit in these ways for as long as she wanted me to. And I wasn't able, I was like, I felt just very like I couldn't relax enough to take a full breath. Even though she was, that was like what was the ideal and what I was being asked to do. And like, I hate that feeling as a student of like not being able to get it, you know? Because it's just not working. And I found that to be,
00:54:34
Speaker
Unfortunately, one of my first experiences with pranayama, and then when I took the yoga tune-up training with Jill Miller, she was like, lie down, we're going to do pranayama. I was like, oh, thank God. You mean I can lie down and do pranayama? And I was able to be relaxed. So that kind of goes back to what we were talking about before, which is the difference between teaching someone the biomechanics of breathing,
00:55:00
Speaker
whether that be the seat or the way that their ribs should move relative to their belly or the amount of time that they should take to inhale and exhale versus creating an environment that that individual feels is safe, where their body can relax and where they can have the
00:55:22
Speaker
cognitive space to actually focus on breathing. Yeah. I mean, I think across the board, we can all agree that the worst way to get somebody who is not relaxed to relax is to tell them to relax. Nothing makes me personally more instantly just at a 10 on the anger scale if someone tells me to relax, especially if it has relax and then lady afterwards.
00:55:54
Speaker
Pretty much, if you want me to punch you in the face, just come up to me and say, relax, lady. Or, you know, calm down. Or any of those things. Any of those instructions where what you're saying is actually, yes, would be ideal maybe for the person in that moment, but the delivery system and the language has a completely opposite effect. You know, it's like when people say, don't panic. You're like, what? Why? Yeah. So, yeah, sometimes being told to relax is extremely un-relaxing.
00:56:20
Speaker
Yeah, I do think that the effects of conscious relaxation can carry over into our lives long term just like the physiological
00:56:36
Speaker
adaptations of strength training can carry over into our being able to more comfortably engage in activities of daily living and meaningful life activities, right? But I wonder if we can facilitate conscious relaxation with a little bit less pickiness around how someone is breathing.
00:57:03
Speaker
For example, here's a question for you, Sarah, and I wanted to get into this in a specific deal. What's your take on, both as a student of yoga, as a former teacher of yoga, as a PT, what's your take on this idea that you should be breathing in through your nose rather than your mouth, or that you should be, let's start with that one actually before I give you too much to think about. Nose breathing versus mouth breathing. I find it very, very difficult sometimes to breathe in and out through my nose.
00:57:32
Speaker
the idea that I should be is just very like I'm a little bit like, why? You know, there is there are physiological reasons why breathing through your nose is beneficial that have to do with the pathway of air through your nostrils, the fact that the air gets warmed, and
00:57:50
Speaker
cleaned a little bit by your nose hairs before it goes into your lungs versus through the mouth, which bypasses that. Sometimes you want to bypass that because the oxygen need is really high. When I'm doing a hard hike and I get to the top of the hill, I'm not standing there going,
00:58:09
Speaker
Because what my body needs the most in that moment is not the warmest, cleanest air, it's just the most air possible. Depending on the demand level, if you are forcing an override where you are breathing through your nose, that may actually cause more anxiety or make you more uncomfortable because it's just not delivering enough oxygen to your system. Sometimes that's the practice. Sometimes the practice is like, let's get comfortable with discomfort.
00:58:35
Speaker
But I often feel like that piece of it is missing in the instruction a little bit. Well, and I might be misstating this because I am not a Pilates instructor, but I've just spent a lot of time around Pilates people. I believe in the Pilates practice, the cueing is inhaling through the nose, exhaling through the mouth. First of all, A, I might be totally wrong, and B, I don't know why.
00:59:04
Speaker
I'm sure there is a reason, but I do not know what it is. But it is specific to yoga that we emphasize both the inhale and the exhale through the nose. But I think that is also a function of not having this metabolic demand that breathing through the nose makes you generally, you're breathing at a slower rate. And so it's having that nervous system impact more than anything else, I think is the goal of that in the asana practice.
00:59:34
Speaker
Yeah, and everyone has a different baseline heart rate, cardiac output, everyone has a different baseline respiratory rate to reflect that. And so it's also just, I think really, I think you're on shaky ground when you start making claims like it's better to breathe through the nose. Because it just depends on what you're doing, who is doing it.
00:59:57
Speaker
and their physiological baselines, whether or not there's things like that. However, in the neck tutorial, Sarah, you do teach the movement logic neck tutorial. You do teach a strategy for taping the mouth. Because that obviously would cause someone, during sleep, right? So it would cause someone to breathe through their nose. So can you talk a little bit about why someone would want to tape their mouth shut?
01:00:26
Speaker
Other than that, they have verbal diarrhea. That's the situation where you may want to tape somebody else's mouth shut. So this practice of taping your mouth shut while you sleep, it definitely sounds insane, but it's not. There is also, and I know it only generally, and so I'm going to botch this as well, but there is a benefit to breathing through your nose in terms of
01:00:54
Speaker
uh nitric oxide that's laughing gas there's something about this nitrogen there's something nitrogen related and that's why i should not be saying this with any third of authority but there is something that happens you're not saying it with authority you're like yes i don't know what i'm saying there is something when you breathe through your nose that you get more of that and that is advantageous for some reason and what i should really do is look that up and i will and then we can put it in the show notes with okay sounds good yeah i'm randomly talking about something and people like well
01:01:24
Speaker
whatever. So the taping your mouth shut forces you obviously to breathe through your nose when you're sleeping. So if you are a sleepy time mouth breather, which I can be sometimes, part of it is that the advantage of breathing through the nose, part of it is also
01:01:47
Speaker
getting you to stop doing things like clenching or grinding your teeth or getting the muscles of the jaw to actually relax because they're not like overworking to try to hold your mouth closed, which they don't actually do.
01:02:03
Speaker
they do the opposite, but so it has a lot to do also with teeth clenching, waking up. I used to wake up because I was a clencher, and I also use a mouth guard, so there's a variety of things you can do, but I would wake up with headaches because I had been clenching my jaw so hard while I was asleep.
01:02:22
Speaker
It's an interesting phenomenon that if you tape your mouth closed, it actually lets the masseter and those big, big old side jaw muscles to relax, and then you can sleep better a lot of the time. This was for the section on headaches and jaw pain. Yeah. Is there a particular type of tape that people would want to get for that? Not a Scotch tape. No, it's Scotch tape.
01:02:46
Speaker
Yes, duct tape. You want to find, no, oh my God, I just heard thinking about it. No, there's something called medical tape, which is tape that you use typically to apply a bandage. You want to use the lightest medical tape that you can find. The other trick that I learned from doing it wrong is I definitely recommend putting some chapstick or something on your lips before you tape, so the tape is sticking to your skin, not to your lips because when you take it off, you do not want to remove
01:03:15
Speaker
a layer of your lip skin. No, it doesn't feel great. So that's like you've learned that through. Yes, I learned that the hard way. But yeah, it's, you know, if you say you're sharing your bed with someone for the first time, that may not be, may not pull it out that night. New puppy. Yeah, new puppy, new human, whatever. You may want to wait on the taping until night two, let's say.
01:03:44
Speaker
I'm turning over and thinking like, good night with your mouth tape shut and they're like blooming at them with some tape. I'm going to keep your mouth shut now. Oh man, okay. I didn't think of it in that way. Jeez, you're really good at turning the volume up on.
01:03:59
Speaker
various ways we can take something. Insane situations that could or couldn't happen. Then my second question is, Chester belly breathing, Sarah, what's your take? Should we be breathing through our belly? What does that even mean? Honestly, to me, it's the false two options narrative. False binary. Thank you for coming up with a word for two options. Or dichotomy, if you prefer. Yeah.
01:04:27
Speaker
Um, where actually the answer is a third one, which is just diaphragm. Just find your, you know, help somebody find their diaphragm if they don't work. Okay. Diaphragm.
01:04:39
Speaker
Just so I don't tell people to chest breathe, I don't tell them to belly breathe. I help them find their diaphragm. I have them feel how the movement of the diaphragm impacts their chest and their belly. Exactly. And then I leave them to it. So the downward descent of the diaphragm is the active contraction, which both creates movement in the abdominal cavity and elevation of the rib cage. Yes.
01:05:05
Speaker
Cool. Then I would add to that, if you are stressing your respiratory system, you're going to want to be breathing all the way up in your clavicles eventually. Absolutely. You're going to need every available square centimeter of space to get oxygen into your lungs to be exchanged and then sent out to the working tissues.
01:05:30
Speaker
And people do that naturally without realizing that's what they're doing. If you come to the end of a sprint and you are breathing hard and you put your arms up and your hands on the top of your head, that elevation, as I hit my mic, that elevation of your arms lifts your collarbones and allows you to get more air in.
01:05:48
Speaker
put their hands on their knees. Yeah, I double over and I shrug my shoulders up. Yeah, you're achieving the same thing either way. And people, and again, and that's why like, you know, how much intervention are we is actually useful. There are these natural behaviors that we do, movements that we do without even recognizing the why behind it. You know, somebody, somebody hunching over is not like, well, I need to elevate my clavicle so I can get an additional, you know, they're just doing it because it feels better because they can get more breath in that way.
01:06:17
Speaker
Yep, exactly. I would go as far to say there's no wrong way to breathe. Yes. Because however someone is breathing has worked their life. They're still alive. It's working. They're breathing. They're not breathing. There may be more advantageous ways to breathe, depending on the context. And making the change is my big question that I'm still sitting with here, is how do we make that change?
01:06:47
Speaker
My recommendation would be try to stress your cardiovascular system at appropriate amounts regularly. And what that stress would look like is entirely dependent on that person for some people. At appropriate amounts for the individual. At appropriate amounts for the individual. At an athletic level.
01:07:07
Speaker
There are so many different ways to stress the cardiovascular system. That is not just mean go for a run. Not at all. And it comes back to this rate of perceived exertion and how hard you think you're working. And if you're on a walk and you feel like you're working pretty hard, why don't you try to sustain that for a little bit? And don't go crazy and do 1,000 shoulder shrugs.
01:07:34
Speaker
Was that from the last episode we recorded? I'm getting all twisted and confused, but you gave the example of this guy who was given 10 shoulder shrugs from the PT and he's like, well, if 10 is good, 100 must be better. In general, and this goes for stressing your body, I think across the board, a 5% to 10% increase over the course of a week is more than enough. You should not be increasing stress.
01:08:01
Speaker
by more than 5% to 10%. And as soon as you start doing that, you might find that you're having some additional aches and pains and wear and tear associated with that overload. So cool. All right, whale. I have to say, I really felt like my Alabama accent is coming right along there in the first couple words of that sentence. Whale. Whale. Mine is just a very, very rude
01:08:31
Speaker
I've got those like Midwestern, New Yorker, Alabama thing going on. Eliana's starting to sound like an Alabamaian though. Amazing. It's kind of funny. Oh, it's hilarious. She could have a Southern accent if we stay here long enough. I think that's it. I think that's all for today. I feel like this has been, as always, a very enlightening conversation. A note to you listeners that you can check out our show notes.
01:08:55
Speaker
for links to the references that we have mentioned in this podcast, including something about nitric ox. Yes, I'm going to make a note to myself right now. Look up, and there's something smart. How to administer laughing gas organically within your own body while sleeping? Just kidding. You can also visit the movement. Speaking of new bed guests while self-administering organic
01:09:23
Speaker
nitric oxide while sleeping. That would be fun. Okay, you can also visit the movement watch. I was like, where is this going?
01:09:32
Speaker
Ah, yeah. So you can also visit the Movement Logic website where you can get on our mailing list and be in the know about nerdy stuff and sales on our upcoming tutorials. You can also watch the video version of this episode where Sarah, her contrasting colors right now of her pink shirt and her blue wall are
01:09:57
Speaker
beautiful spectacular vibrant okay um and if you want to see what our faces look like while we especially why we're listening and thinking i have a lot of wrinkles around my brow sometimes i look angry um thanks so much for joining us on the movement logic podcast
01:10:18
Speaker
Sarah's smiling right now. It's terrible when we do the silent laughs because what someone has said is like so funny we're laughing silently but that it like to listeners it sounds like we're a really tough crowd. Or just like that was not funny. Crickets. But if you watch the video you'll see that
01:10:35
Speaker
We think that each other is very funny sometimes, even though you can't hear it. Okay. Thanks so much for joining us on the Movement Logic podcast. Finally, it helps us out a lot. If you would please like and subscribe, or no, yes, please like us, like us. If you would please subscribe, if you like the episodes, please like us. I mean, truly, that is really all I wanted. Please subscribe and rate and review because that helps us become more visible, I guess.
01:11:04
Speaker
Join us next week for more movement logic, more of our strong opinions loosely held, or our loosely held morals and strong muscles. Did I get it? Was that right? Is that the sub line, the subtext, the tag line? Strong opinions loosely held, yes. Okay, got it. Committing it to memory on episode 10. Strong muscles, I think is the...
01:11:34
Speaker
other version. And the truer one. Yes. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode and you want to support us, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
01:11:56
Speaker
If you'd like to watch, head on over to our website at movementlogictutorials.com forward slash podcast where you can watch the video version. We'll be back in your ears next week to nerd out about movement without taking ourselves too seriously in the process.