Transcript
Speaker: We all have a story, and at times we feel we're walking it out alone. Let's pause and think. Join us for honest conversations about adoption and parenting as we lament, encourage, give hope, and explore our true identity and worth in Christ.
Speaker: Hi, and welcome to Pause and Think, another episode. And today we have a special guest, Dr. Nicole Wilkie. And I am so excited for this podcast, this conversation. And as you know, we like we always love to have a real and honest conversation. So welcome, Nicole.
Speaker: Welcome to our podcast. And I'm just going to let you introduce yourself. Hey, Jackie. Well, I'm so glad to be here. I'm Nicole Wilkie. I ah am a wife and mom, mom three little girls.
Speaker: And our family lives in Peru, where we work to see the the system of care change to support children and families. And I also serve with CAFO's Center on Applied Research for Vulnerable Children and Families.
Speaker: Yeah, well, Nicole, I met you a few years ago um with the conference CAFO for Latin America, and it was in Peru. And I met you and your husband, Josh. Actually, my daughter was able to come with me. And I'll never forget, we were sitting at the table having dinner together. and i had no idea because I met you for the first time. And I had no idea really who you were.
Speaker: and just the huge impact that you have in this space for many, many reasons. So for our listeners, our viewers who don't know you, you are, like you said, a wife, a mom, you're a researcher, you're a missionary, and you're And you're an author and a therapist.
Speaker: But you have so many titles and each and every one of them are so important. But one thing that so stuck out to me in our conversation, your parents are parents for foster and adoptive children. And you grew up in this whole area, in this space. So...
Speaker: On our podcast, I would love for you to take us back in time and share from the standpoint of a daughter, um share from the standpoint of a biological child growing up in a foster family, foster family and adoptive family, because I don't believe we've ever had a sibling, a biological child share from their viewpoint. And every every perspective is very important. So go ahead and take us back and start sharing where you'd like our listeners and viewers to hear about your story.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, it's an interesting, um I guess it's an interesting story because my my parents didn't grow up seeing a lot of fostering and adopting, but they ended up working in a small group home when they were first married.
Speaker: And there were some some changes that were being made and they realized that it wasn't an ideal scenario for a couple of the girls there. So they actually became licensed foster parents to take care of those two girls who were teenagers at the time.
Speaker: And ah they didn't have me yet. I wasn't born yet. So when I was born, they were still house parents there on the weekend. So like my first birthday took place in residential care and they they had they were still doing foster care with my older teenage sisters. So really from from day one, this has truly been a part of my life. So actually, when I speak with people and they're like, what was the adjustment like? I don't know. There wasn't one.
Speaker: um It's funny. I was just having a conversation with somebody the other day because we were talking about birth order. We've recently done some research on on bio kids and foster, adoptive and kinship families. And I said, the funny thing is that still to this day,
Speaker: I always think of myself as the eldest. I'm not the eldest. I'm not the youngest. I'm not the middle. I'm certainly not the only. um But when you have 70 siblings through foster care and adoption, birth order gets a little bit muddled. So I i think it's just kind of an atypical um An atypical presentation, if you will. But overall, my reflections, like the the great majority of my memories of growing up in my family are just like overwhelmingly positive. I feel like we had
Speaker: a really loving home. We had always a lot of different perspectives and diversity of thoughts and backgrounds and experiences and learning and certainly some of the things I learned probably weren't the ideal. They're, you know, shocking things to a little Christian kid who grew up in church. um But also, over overall, my experiences were just really positive. And, and yet there were some really hard things. And I would say actually, some of the harder things have come even as an adult, seeing certain siblings struggle over time, and knowing that
Speaker: when they're little, um the correction for those things is is is not always that difficult. But as they get older, you see those consequences in their lives and that can be really difficult.
Speaker: I think um one theme for me that is is neither bad nor good, but neutral and and yet certainly part of my story is it's just being a parentified child. right I thought thought of myself as the oldest. Maybe it was that I had the most seniority as life went on. but um Like really, I think for me, one distinction between between my upbringing and and maybe that of of children who didn't experience these types of care in their home is that I just have always had a lot of relationships.
Speaker: commitment and and to a certain extent, even a feeling of responsibility for my siblings and also the privilege that it is to to do what our family did, knowing that we got to live consciously aware of purpose from a very young age and of knowing that we were part of giving a child a family.
Speaker: um I had a conversation with my dad recently. Our girls were doing little like family tree projects and interviewing their grandparents, which is really sweet. And we were asking my parents about foster care and adoption. Like what made you want to do this? What made you start? And some of it was just practical. Like I said, my older sisters, just kind of a the the timing and the opportunity of it. But my dad's dad died when he was little. And and he just said, you know, everyone deserves a family and I would do it all over again.
Speaker: And I thought that is, that's a very significant thing to say. i would do it all over again. and it has not been without tremendous difficulty. But I think that my parents and us kids had a uniquely singular purpose in in wanting to care well for others, not perfectly by any means.
Speaker: And knowing that God had invited us into the story. Yeah, I think... what stuck out the most to me is when you said the number 70.
Speaker: Okay. Seven foster adoptive children is a big number. But when you said 70, was like, what, excuse me?
Speaker: Like 70? And you said, yes, 70. And when you say that number, we, you and I both know, okay, the number 70 is
Speaker: Does not come with, you know, with rose colored glasses. There have been challenges, ah not only for your parents, but you as a biological child growing up in this, like you said, you were born into it.
Speaker: Um, you, when you were born, you already had, foster sisters and clearly your parents had a huge heart. Um, like your dad said, every child deserves a family and God just called them to a lifetime of, of fostering and adoption. and made that a part of your family. So is there um one specific area of challenge that maybe you could expound a little on and be a little vulnerable about?
Speaker: Absolutely. I'm just, I'm picking amongst so many. um I think that one of the things that I didn't realize that I think a lot of childhood, I don't think this is just my childhood by any means, but I think a lot of childhood it's just lived in the moment and it's only in hindsight as an adult that you can see, you know, that wasn't ideal or you can see, hey that maybe I even was responding in a way that was was not as useful. And I think for me,
Speaker: It just, there was just this clarity. My parents never said this. They never would have said this, but when there was so much need around me, I really learned to minimize my own needs.
Speaker: And I think that's a pretty common experience of biological children. um and a pretty pervasive one throughout the lifespan. You really have to learn. That's a skill. right And it's not to say at all that my parents were not attentive, but it's more just like the limits, the human limits of resources. right If you've got the the kid who is sneaking cigarettes home from school, And you've got the kid who just punched a hole in the wall.
Speaker: And then you've got like me who maybe like i was struggling because my friend said something mean to me, you know, like there's a clear triage here. And so there's no there's no sense of like my parents did a bad job or like guilt. It's just the facts are facts.
Speaker: And they didn't have time to attend to my every emotional moment, right? And so I think I choose young age to just kind of be like the okay one, like to just be okay.
Speaker: And so I would say that, you know, even in the research that I've done, this is a very common theme that the needs of the biological children are, the only way I can describe it as overlooked,
Speaker: Not because parents expect them to be perfect or anything like that, but just there are limits on what the parents can do. And that's just a ah very real fact factor in my life. I would say, i will say one thing that I think was a buffer to that to me, because that was certainly hard, is I had a highly engaged grandmother.
Speaker: And she and I had a very close and very special relationship. And she, she was the person really that saw those things. I remember when I was 11 years old, she wrote me a card and put it in the mail and she wrote a lot of nice things in it. But I remember directly, she said, Nicole, you're one of my very best friends.
Speaker: And as an 11 year old, to be seen I wasn't like one of the kids. I wasn't the third parent. She just really loved me. And I knew that. And I knew that she was in my corner. And so even when my parents couldn't attend to certain things, I think the fact that I had her to to kind of make up the difference for that emotional lack was...
Speaker: It was, I can't even, i can't overstate the importance that I had in my life. That is, that's an amazing story um about your grandmother, because God knew your needs.
Speaker: yeah And he provided. And as parents, you and I are both moms. And like you said, I mean, this can happen in all biological kids, if you have all biological kids, there's there's going to be some kids that need more, just like an emergency room, as you were describing, I was thinking of an emergency room. Of course, they there's they're going to take you know the person who is ah had a gunshot wound before the the person who comes in with the flu. And so it's kind of prioritized. And so...
Speaker: At times, especially if foster kids are coming in, and you said 70 of them coming in with ah trauma and and major needs, the kids who are okay kind of take the back seat and they're you know all hands on deck to the kids who are who are walking through severe trauma. And so, again, you're not blaming your parents necessarily. But you're expressing now, like you said, as an adult, you know, maybe you've seen it a little more or it started clicking, making them a little more sense that you kind of learn to cope and just be okay. But again, you're able to name it
Speaker: and And share what what that thing was that maybe affected you to learn how to be okay, even when you weren't okay. But it's so beautiful how God provided your grandmother to meet your emotional needs and be a help.
Speaker: be a support to your mom and dad as they were being the hands and feet of Jesus to other children, giving them that family that they didn't have and just including them in the family and making them a part of your family. And also at the same time, your grandmother meeting your needs. So I love, I love that ah illustration, that part of your story. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker: So now that you and I are you know, we're parents and hindsight's always 20-20, you know, there's things that we can say, oh my gosh, you know, with our biological kids, like if I could go back or, you know, I could have done this better because, you know, there's no, there's we don't go through classes, A, B, C, and D on how to be,
Speaker: great parents. You know, it's just kind of like you're, you're living and learning, but as a biological child born into this huge foster family, adoptive family, um, heart and space, now that you're a mom, is there any, um, maybe words of wisdom that you could give to,
Speaker: a parent walking through this and maybe going through challenges that that your parents went through. Is there anything that you that kind of sticks out in your mind that you could speak into a parent and encourage them today?
Speaker: Oh, for sure. I think there's two things I would say. One that's kind of general to the family and one that's more specific to how to interact with their biological children. I think the first thing that we did not always do well and sometimes did well is acknowledging the grief and loss that comes with the transitions both of kids into and out of your home, right?
Speaker: You're always displacing something. Every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. And so with that comes grief and That might mean, it might be that your, you know, your biological child or your adopted child needs to move bedrooms because a foster child is coming, right? There can be grief in that. There can be grief in the rhythms and routines of the family looking really different.
Speaker: and then, of course, there's grief when the kids leave. And I think... the biological children that let's call it, let's say the children left behind because sometimes it's other foster children, sometimes it's adoptive children, adopted children who have kind of inherited this more transient lifestyle, right?
Speaker: By being adopted into this family, the kids left behind have a tiny piece of their heart that goes with those kids, right? Like I have 70 little pieces that are out in the world And sometimes you can maintain relationships with those individuals and sometimes you can't. Especially in the early years, it was often like against the law, actually, to have continued contact. and now you know, many of those individuals we still have contact with, but I don't see them all the time.
Speaker: I don't spend every holiday or birthday with them. And so there is this loss that goes with it. And I think it's an opportunity for us to remember that this isn't our, this isn't our eternal home, right? That um we will have these losses here and we will be separated from people we love and that hopefully we'll be able to live in eternity together. Right. But we have to just be willing to both be positive. Yes.
Speaker: But also hold the heart. And I think we can do those at the same time. I'm not saying like we need to wallow. That's not really useful for anyone, even like there's been research on catharsis and it's actually not that helpful.
Speaker: um But I think I think what we can do is to create space for it to be okay for us and for our children to not be okay for a while.
Speaker: And to say, hey guys, we're not just going to flip around and have another kid come in and like take this kid's place. you know and We're gonna wait until we're we're healing emotionally. We're gonna wait till we're at a level of equilibrium and we're okay and we're not perfect. We still have grief, but it's not so fresh before we would consider making another big change in our family like that. So that would be at the family level, I think i think really important. And that's both from my experience and then some of the research that we're doing ah showing that those transitions matter a lot
Speaker: and creating space for everyone to have their emotional needs, that matters a lot. And then the other thing I think and in particular with with our bio kids is they must be involved.
Speaker: In fact, one study that we did recently showed that you know when you look at structural things like the age at placement or the number of children who have been in the family or birth order disruption, none of those compared to children feeling that they were involved and that their voice was heard.
Speaker: And have a specific example of this in my own life, actually. When I was 14 years old, there was a boy that lived in our home and he left after nine months. And I remember vividly going to my mom and dad at night one night and saying, I'm worried because I didn't even really know him.
Speaker: And I'm not even really sad that he's leaving, to be honest. And I'm worried that I'm going to have attachment problems. And my parents kind of chuckled. Okay. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't chuckle.
Speaker: um But they kind of were like, you know, and they're like, well, they were like, what do you think we should do? And I said, I need us to take a break for a while. And we did.
Speaker: i mean, the kids that were that remained, we had a couple of other kiddos in the home, and they obviously were there, continue to live there, but we just stopped taking new kiddos. And for a while, we talked about it, we prayed about it and And i I actually saw a therapist during that time who assured me that my attachment was intact, I was okay. But after this time, i said, hey, if you want me to do this, if you want me to continue to participate in this as an active participant, an active stakeholder and what we're doing, I need to go to foster parent training.
Speaker: I need to know what's going on. And so I started going to training with them. They said, you're right, you do need to go. And when there would be foster parent training, I would go along with them.
Speaker: i felt included and equipped and they always, to be fair, they always did a pretty good job of honoring my role. as an important part of what we were doing. It wasn't like they weren't like you know the heroes on the stage and like those kids over there are such a disaster. But it was like, hey, we're a team. We all do this together, including the foster and adoptive kids in our home. We're all working on this together. at But that pivotal moment showed me actually do have a voice in this.
Speaker: And if they had responded differently and really like pushed forward, and forced that we were going to continue on without pausing. i wonder if my life would be very different today.
Speaker: i don't know, of course, but I think that meant a lot to me and it really cemented trust in in both their care for me and for my siblings, but also their belief in the importance of the role that I played.
Speaker: and And for some reason at that age and that developmental stage, that felt really valuable and meaningful. That's so good. And hearing that your parents actually included you, asked your opinion, and at 14 years old, said you you said you needed to go to training, and they brought you into it and allowed you to go to training with them um is really, really great to hear. Because I don't know you know if there's a lot of parents that will take their kids to training with them. um Maybe they don't even know that that's important to their their biological kids. So I love that you brought that out because clearly that was a very important step for you in feeling part of the team and part of the process um instead of just being ignored. Oh, you're just the kids, you know, we're making the decisions, we're the parents. I love how your parents included you. But I also love how you um were honest and said they chuckled.
Speaker: You know, because sometimes, and we know as parents, we're not perfect. Like I think back because we're both missionaries. And when Randall and I first came to the field, we had 17 orphaned and abandoned teenagers live with us throughout the first eight years um before our kids were born.
Speaker: And so I immediately, as you were sharing, i thought of our son when the last um teenager left our home and our son cried.
Speaker: Oh yeah. Cried because he said my big brother was leaving. And just to be very honest, it was very sad for us, but in a very dysfunctional way for me of handling my sadness was just to ignore it and just kind of ignore like, okay, it's good. Everything's okay. And in that, you know, I'm thinking back,
Speaker: I feel like my way of ignoring it, I almost like had Caleb ignore that too. And not, like you said, not hold that grief.
Speaker: At the same time. And so we do, we do think back on things and gosh, I wish we could have done it differently. Or, you know, not created those scenarios where we ignored our pain, or ignored those, those feelings that aren't comfortable.
Speaker: Totally. Yeah. So as parents, we're acknowledging that we do make mistakes and that we do do things that maybe aren't the right way. So we don't want you to feel like failures as parents, but we're you're sharing, we're just having these honest conversations so we can do things a little differently, so we can improve in areas. Yeah.
Speaker: i I think that's huge. And I'll also say like, it's probably to do with the reality that I learned to be okay when I wasn't okay, right, as a kid, that there are so many times that I have to go back to our girls and I have to like build in, I build in like, I call them gut checks, these check-in times with our girls.
Speaker: And we have like a very specific way of doing it. But I don't, I learned to turn off certain needs and feelings.
Speaker: And sometimes, especially when we're really busy or it's a stressful time or if I'm sick or something, I am just not as good as at like naturally tuning into that. So what I've had to do is learn from my own tendencies to say, okay, number one, I'm going to build systems that counteract that.
Speaker: ah kind of you know systematically. And then the other big piece of it is to go back and apologize. And we we do a lot of that in our house, right? Like we're very imperfect parents.
Speaker: These poor kids are our guinea pigs. You know, we've never been parents before. And so we'll tell them that like we're learning too. We're trying things out. Sometimes we try out the wrong thing. And I think that parents being willing to apologize Or to even say, hey, I didn't realize that that wouldn't happen that's not what I intended or like helping your kids to understand you're human too, but that you see their needs and their mistakes or and your mistakes, right? And i think that it's not like, it's not like a foregone conclusion like, oh, I messed up, man, what a failure I am. I really think that we can model redemption
Speaker: with our kiddos by asking them for forgiveness and and helping them to see like, you're never going to get to an age where you don't need to do that. And certainly not, you know, with Christ, this is going to be a regular part of your conversations with Jesus and and just normalizing it. Like it is it is something to be celebrated that because of Christ's work on the cross, we get we get second chances, right?
Speaker: And that is that's a joy, that's actually a delight. That's not something to be ashamed ashamed about, that's something to celebrate. Yes. And you and I are both sitting here because of the gospel, because of God's redemption. You're serving in Peru. I'm serving in Guatemala. we're Because of technology, we're able to have this this time and record this podcast. So i know God's called you and your husband to the country of Peru. So as we're wrapping up, um what can you share about how your...
Speaker: your upbringing has um influenced your calling now um that God has called you and Josh to improve ministering to vulnerable kids?
Speaker: Man, those are great questions. I think that my upbringing taught me that hard isn't bad and that oftentimes we are trying are when we make choices and to surrender things or to walk away from things or to encounter difficult things that so many times it's just on the other side of that, that God does amazing things, that he's just standing ready to grow us and to bless us. And that's not to say that there's not challenges, but but stepping into the world of caring for vulnerable kids can definitely be challenging. And
Speaker: As you draw near to the hurt and the suffering of this world, sometimes you get hurt and sometimes you suffer. And, and yet, like the incredible, enormous blessings, like if you took all care for vulnerable kids out of my life, I feel like it would just be Swiss cheese. Like there's so many like powerful, incredible, supernatural blessings that have come and amazing relationships, right? Like that these are kind of my people, right? That if you take that out, I don't even know what life would be like.
Speaker: So I think it just was this, it felt very natural to say, Yes, Lord, I want to see what you're doing there and I want to be part of it. Yeah, that's so good. And I'm so thankful that we met um in Peru.
Speaker: um I feel so blessed to have known you over the last couple years and serving together in CAFO and seeing you, we'll see you in Atlanta. And um yeah, so I want to invite everybody. If you don't know about CAFO, Christian Alliance for the Orphans, um it's going in Atlanta, Georgia this September. And i am just so thankful for all of you who have joined our podcast today and has been a part of this honest conversation.
Speaker: But I want to invite you back because Nicole's going to be back um with her doctorate hat on and talking about research and more stuff with Aisha in this whole space. And we're going to hear her professional um and heart views in this whole area and so i am just so thankful and nicole's an author do you want to just quickly share about your book ah sure i'd be happy to i have a book coming out really soon with dr mandy howard focused on children in technology called vulnerable children in a digital age
Speaker: Yes. So we are so thankful for all your wisdom and thank you for joining us on pause pause and think. And you can look us up on whosami.org for more information.
Speaker: Thanks for joining us for this episode of pause and think for more resources and information, go to whosami.org.
