Transcript
Speaker: We all have a story, and at times we feel we're walking it out alone. Let's pause and think. Join us for honest conversations about adoption and parenting as we lament, encourage, give hope, and explore our true identity and worth in Christ.
Speaker: Hi, everyone. I'm so happy that this episode is about to be recorded. I always love talking to our guests and we are so privileged to have um top tier guests. Like i'm I'm your fan, Nicole. This is Nicole Wilkie. Dr. Nicole Wilkie does research that blows my mind, brings data,
Speaker: but with a heart. So it makes sense when you listen to her findings, it's just like, hu Me as an adoptive mom, I have so much light after every conference, after every reading that I do ah with your work, Nicole. And I am so happy that you're with us here at Pause and Think. And we know that you're gonna find this really helpful as well.
Speaker: And so um just to start off, Nicole, what's your line of work? What do you do and what are you? Oh, that, well, firstly, thank you so much for having me here in such a kind intro. I feel the same about you guys.
Speaker: um line of work you know i always say that like when i was a little girl i couldn't when somebody said what do you want to do when you grow up i don't think i could have imagined where god would take me and i'm so grateful for that there wasn't really a degree for this but um currently i wear a few hats one is that i'm wife to josh and mom to pearl eliana and sayla And we all live in Peru where we work to see the system of care for vulnerable children change to default to kids and families.
Speaker: At the same time, i serve as director of CAFO's Center on Applied Research for Vulnerable Children and Families, and there get to work with researchers and practitioners in helping to apply the best available knowledge to frontline care.
Speaker: and That's amazing. But in um I understand your baseline, like you started off as a social worker. Is that correct?
Speaker: As a therapist. So I was a marriage and family therapist, but I had also worked in residential care. I worked with kids with special needs. I did respite care. I was a nanny. So very like direct care focus in my life.
Speaker: this is How did that enlighten or feed your... your hunger for knowing what's behind? Because I think research has to do with finding out the inner workings of why things are the way they are.
Speaker: Like how that first line impact. i It was so formative. Well, I'll say i'll say first, I didn't, I didn't dream of going into this space really. So I grew up in a foster adoptive family and I just, I knew that this was part of our family's identity, but I i kind of thought this was my parents thing, right? Like they're like, they're,
Speaker: hobby if you will or their their identity or any way that you want to look at it and so i really had other plans in life and when the lord started to call me quite clearly to humble myself and gratefully use the education that he could give me that wasn't achievable by by typical you know credentialing or or university programs to use that for his glory i you know, temporarily was resistant. And I'm so grateful that he gave me the grace to be able to follow him into that. And then, and then going into that frontline practice, I think what I started to see and what maybe piqued my curiosity for research is that so many decisions were being made based on assumptions and anecdotes.
Speaker: And there were things that I knew were not universally true because I had so many siblings coming from so many difficult backgrounds.
Speaker: I'd worked with so many clients who who didn't fit the mold or maybe, for example, those who experienced some of the worst harm but would go on to succeed and some who had lots of supports and advantages but still continue to struggle. And I think it just left a lot of questions for me knowing that there were There were committed, kind-hearted, well-intentioned practitioners doing all that they could to serve children and families and still lacking highly usable practical and evidence-based tools to do so.
Speaker: It's amazing that you know you got into this line of work with certain head hesitancy, ah but there was always a question space for questions. I think obedience in certain aspects of our work needs to be you know lower in the sense that you need curiosity.
Speaker: and finding out really what's really happening. And so how did what was your first um you know plunge into research and what was the most encouraging part of your findings?
Speaker: Oh, that's such a good question. i think I'm so grateful, like I said, for the grace to obey the Lord into this field. I feel like when I first encountered Empirical research, it really did feel like a coming home for me.
Speaker: um And you know how some people worship with music and you can just see, they are just like, their heart is so full and they are discovering things about the Lord.
Speaker: That's how I feel about empirical research. Like when I am able to see God's order and like discover one little bit about his creation, it's just pure worship. Like I feel like I'm excited close to the creator in that moment.
Speaker: And so I think that's part of why i fell in love with it. And there were a number of different projects I was involved in that were kind of like, I loved the research more, more even than the topic. But the first foray that I had really into the vulnerable child space on a large scale was many years ago when a friend reached out to me and said, Nicole, listen, she's an adoptive mom, eight kids, and she said, there is something wrong in our community related to technology.
Speaker: And i can't put my finger on it. And I don't know exactly what it is. But the number of kids who are straight up addicted to gaming, to pornography, to gambling, to just being on their devices all day is astounding.
Speaker: And I said, hey no problem. I would love to look into the literature for you. Just assuming that I'm digging into the research that exists and nothing more. And as I get there, there is nothing.
Speaker: There's nothing. And I'm hearing more and more from parents at this time. And i that wasn't necessarily the place that I thought, I know, let's do a research study. But that was in fact, it ended up being my response because I could see the seriousness of this. And I knew that God had positioned me in a place that I could do this fairly easily, working for CAFO, having a lot of connections in this space.
Speaker: And so my colleague, Dr. Mandy Howard and i did our first studies together, two studies looking at technology and early adversity. and I guess, you know, I was hooked or the rest is history, however you want to say it. But I could see the hunger and the fervor that people in the field had, practitioners, parents, leaders.
Speaker: And what is unique, I think, about the Christian child welfare space is that no one is more committed. No one is more than more committed than this group of people. And so frequently what I have seen is when we're able to give actionable data informed recommendations, people are implementing them like that because they want the best available care.
Speaker: I mean, what a privilege that is as a researcher to see people actually like it's a dream. Wow, that's that's encouraging to hear that we are the most committed group. and i love i i it It blows my mind and it and it ignites a passion in my heart when science and the faith just lock arms and just... yeah bring a light together. And, you know, science just confirms the gospel. How does it, because you're already weaving into our conversation, how impactful in your in in the type of worship that this is for you. But like, how does the gospel show up for you in research?
Speaker: Oh, well, I'll give you two examples. So the first is simply that we when we look at good science, it is always confirming the truth of Scripture.
Speaker: Right from the way that we look at at like archaeological science, for example, or literary science, and we're seeing how these how scripture is actually a historical document um in addition to this gospel story right and it confirms the truth of it I think that the and the ability to see God's order and intentionality is very soothing for me, very calming, because I know that that amidst all of the suffering in this world, and when you wade into this world of child welfare, you are going to get more exposure to that. That's just the reality. Like, that's just the fact of it, right?
Speaker: So when when you're wrestling with that and the things that don't seem to make sense, and yet you see that he created every cell and molecule and subatomic particle with like deep intentionality and complete brilliance that no human will ever touch or ever understand, I think that points to his sovereignty in a way that I've never seen anything else do for me, at least.
Speaker: So I think like that is something on on this kind of global scale of like this the relationship between scripture and science that is so enlivening and encouraging. And when Christians feel threatened by science,
Speaker: I think often it's that we we are lacking in confidence in the truth of scripture. If we can be rock solid in that and know, hey, there's nothing that I'm going to see that's going to change my belief in God's word, then it creates this curiosity for well what is science saying? And when we see, for example, so many character traits and fruits of the spirit, when we look at the the research around them, we're finding that actually having those leads to better well-being, right? Longevity, better health outcomes. the truth of of of god's order is sustained through all domains including science i think more specifically one of the things that i love and research and a particular passionate area mine is is seeing that specifically when it comes to kids who've experienced hard things you know this i think for all of us it breaks our hearts and we've we've all had times when we feel just
Speaker: absolute discouragement, like, Lord, why did you let this happen? Why is this part of your plan? and and and it takes discipline to have faith that he will bring about good. But just this morning, our family was reading the book of Daniel, and we were talking about how many examples in scripture there are of of God taking what the enemy means for evil and using using it for good you know you see this with Joseph of course who originally says that but you see it with with Daniel you see it with Shadrach Meshach and Abednego and so many others that through their experiences entire nations are commanded to worship God and they're actually elevated so it's it's both for God's glory and for their good
Speaker: And it's fascinating that in science, we see that God can take really difficult things and he can redeem them. And honestly, guys, in, you know, I was a child trauma therapist.
Speaker: Having walked through this, sometimes that is the only hope that that can get me through the day, especially when I'm walking through really difficult things with folks. And yet that is more than enough, right? Like God is not going to leave you where you are in your pain and your suffering. He is going to hold you while you weep. He's going to carry you. He's going to elevate you.
Speaker: and he's going to make you more like him for his glory yes and for your good and and that is not to that's not to denigrate or to dismiss suffering like this isn't this is a very broken world that we live in but science through our study of resilience shows that god can literally do what joseph said
Speaker: Nicole, it's this is what i'm this is what I mean, people. But when I say that it's so uplifting to listen to the truth, because this is the truth, this is not an opinion. this is when you When you look at data, when you look at actual numbers and actual studies, serious studies, scientific studies,
Speaker: and you find an echo of God's goodness and design, it is absolutely soothing for the soul. And something I heard somebody say so beautifully in the last ah days, there's a guy who puts ah out little videos, showed videos of like ideas that are so beautiful. And he said, i love it when when you get to know the people that you don't understand, because then when you and when you get into their stories, it's impossible to hate them, he said. yeah And so...
Speaker: And this is what I find like when that kind of curiosity is taken to the level of research and you kind of go behind the scenes in somebody's life, even caregivers that ah quote unquote failed, you have a new level of compassion. And I think that's that's ah a very beautiful result of good research. And I see like when you when I've been to, you know, KFO summit and like the pre-conference or the symposium or whatnot, um even the the the applying that kind of ethos to say transition, transitioning a home that's an orphanage, like a traditional orphanage to family based.
Speaker: All I hear is a great deal of respect and compassion because you understand that they don't understand a lot of things. And then the approach is just different.
Speaker: So I think it's also not only on the underlying motives of of research, but the outpouring of that research results in a very gospel way of treating everyone involved.
Speaker: So um i think it's just, it comes from a different heart and it, and it you know, just spills over in a very different way.
Speaker: How has the impact of the research actually um showed up? Like, cause you're reaping some of the fruit, like your papers. I don't understand academics too much, but I know that you guys have,
Speaker: been, you know, off the charts with publications and stuff. Can you walk a mere mortal into your academic life, your academic world hence and say, what what has it meant to do excellent work in this area?
Speaker: Well, I'll say a couple of things. I'll say firstly, like, just to be very clear, I i feel this very deep feeling conviction and certainty. And i as a researcher, I don't have certainty about a lot in life because there's always more to learn. Right. But I feel this true certainty that that I bring literally nothing to this that God hasn't given me.
Speaker: How freeing is that? Right. Like for all of us to our callings, we bring nothing that God hasn't given us. And so I feel like, you know, when you're talking about the different approaches, like, well, goodness, if it's a gift to each of us that we get to learn these things, then then we should want to pass on the gift to others, but we shouldn't expect that they would just somehow know.
Speaker: um In terms of the research, it's been it's actually been so surprising to me. It's been really a beautiful journey. And we have done studies in a number of different areas. I'll just i'll just kind of camp out on one so that I don't pepper you with too many things. But we did one recently, starting in 2020.
Speaker: And it's been a long-term study looking at adults with care experience. so more than a thousand across the world. And we've produced several different papers. So for example, one was asking them, how would you change care for kids?
Speaker: If anybody should be asked, it's them. And there were papers on that. Exactly. Man, it was fascinating, like different perspectives. They all kind of clustered into similar areas around connection to family, connection to their identities and knowing their histories, you know offering support to them. And they were very practical, right? Like people really took it seriously and it was such a blessing.
Speaker: We then said, hey, we want to ask these same people about some questions around their well-being. and some different factors in their life so we can determine like what actually is producing better outcomes right now or until that point at least most of the research was simply saying well you're an adult with care experience that's bad for you right and it was kind of this like depressive fatalistic, defeatist approach. And that's just not very useful to us. right We want research that can be useful and that people can implement. One of the commitments we've made is we we try always to give data-informed recommendations to practitioners within our papers. And then we create webinars and infographics and things so that like the average person who doesn't really love reading a 55-page research article can be like, now just tell me what to do.
Speaker: And it's not it's not because people can't understand. It's because they are trying to balance 74 priorities at the same time. And they just need clarity.
Speaker: Right. Like, just tell me. So one of my favorite papers from that study is actually to my shame and accidents. But the Lord knew and the Lord the Lord provided. But I can't take credit for it. So so here we are. Right. The Christian Alliance for Orphans.
Speaker: And as we're putting together this study, I don't know why, but I didn't really think to ask about spirituality. Like I'm so embarrassed by it, but I didn't, I just didn't put it in there as I'm designing the assessment.
Speaker: Well, it gets time to code data for a different paper. We're looking at different questions. And I realized guys, like I am seeing examples of like in in the open-ended questions, people are saying Jesus, church, prayer, God, scripture, and on and on and on. And the the themes were just rising to the top. So we said, okay, we're just going to look when people are saying they're making more references to faith and spirituality, and what does that do to their wellbeing, right? How does that affect their resilience, their mental health, their physical health and their satisfaction with life, right? So we did this huge analysis.
Speaker: And we come out and just the mere mention, right? We weren't biasing them. We weren't asking, well what do you think about faith and spirituality? Just in their own spontaneous faith references, we found that if you made two or more, you were statistically significantly more likely to have better health,
Speaker: better physical health, better mental health, higher resilience and greater life satisfaction. Isn't that wild? just we weren't We weren't analyzing it. We weren't like judging your level of Christianity or the depth of your faith. It's just how much does this seem to play a role in my life?
Speaker: So just little things like that where it's like, okay, well then what are the practical takeaways? like How can we as practitioners and parents expose our kids to the faith, help them understand God's love for them? This is not a heavy handed like you need to do this big study or something. It's really that knowing that nurture and admonition of the Lord is going to raise us up and to be healthier people after early adversity.
Speaker: It's just bad. I think i think it for for in our human eyes, it's an accident. I think it was God's sake that you didn't look for it intentionally. And then it was an afterthought because i think it's pure. think it's organic and it throws a very big light on world.
Speaker: You know, just facts. It's just facts. People can't fake their their health or, you know, the way they cope with difficulty, but it showed up. So it's amazing.
Speaker: Can I share just one more? There's one other. So, I mean, yeah i could share them all day, but like, okay, one other super, super practical thing. We thought, I know, we're gonna look at belonging. We asked a question about belonging.
Speaker: And so the nature of the question was not, did your mom think you belonged? Did your caregiver at the orphanage think you belong? Did you as a child have a sense of belonging? So there was no litmus test, like, did you have three friends or something? We don't care, irrelevant.
Speaker: Did you have a sense of belonging? Okay, so that's the question. When individuals had a sense of belonging, As adults, just a sense, they had higher resilience, higher life satisfaction. They had lower rates of suicidality.
Speaker: and statistically significant less lesser rates of homelessness. Isn't that wild? Just a sense of belonging. So like we do this paper and we get to the end, we're kind of like, well, what do we tell practitioners to do? Like, how are you going to do so? Literally our recommendation, which is just it's so small, but I use it with my own kiddos is like just simply asking a child, what's one thing that makes you feel like you belong?
Speaker: And then later asking, What's one thing that we don't do that you think would help you to feel that you belong more? That's it. Because practitioners, parents, leaders, caregivers don't have time for long interventions. But we can all ask our kids, hey, what makes you feel like you belong? And just do more of it, right? And it's different for each kid, but that sense of belonging has massive implications, especially for kiddos who have been separated from from their parents.
Speaker: Nicole, I could talk to you for three hours, definitely. And I would love that. But I'm so happy that Caleb Koala is out in the world. yeah This is our little friend. This is the only one that I have.
Speaker: And I love him. And it's about resilience. Dr. Nicole and the team, but you know, thought it up and I illustrated it and it's been wild and people seem to gravitate toward the very sweet, simple storyline of Caleb Koala and the grandpa. Yeah.
Speaker: And if you want to find this, it's free, completely free. It's complete as an audio book, as a little ah comic type um ah resource that you can find in CAFO, YouTube.
Speaker: um And it's in Spanish and English. And so my father actually voiced the grandpa in Spanish, which is one of my favorite legacies of him.
Speaker: ah so anyways wow i i saw him and you and i was like this is honestly like now i need to get my dad to do it or something because i'm so inspired to do that yes and and so nicole thank you so much for your time i absolutely love it i will see you soon at kfo summit we'll be together uh having a conversation having you know nerdy time and it's going be fantastic I can't wait. Yeah, I can't wait. Thank you for your time, Nicole. And thank you for you if you listened in a platform for podcasts or if you saw it on YouTube. If you enjoyed it, if this was helpful, share it. That's the way we get the word around. And log on to whosami.org.
Speaker: We're always eager to listen to your stories, to hear from you. And we have resources there. They could actually be so much help for you. So love you and see you next time on Pause and Think.
Speaker: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Pause and Think. For more resources and information, go to whosami.org.
