Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Neoseph Campbell's Bogus Journey(s)
44 Plays9 months ago
Ella and Hope get into the weeds on story structure, and believe it or not, they also each have a take on Werner Herzog.
Ella Cesari is
https://twitter.com/drawnwithoutref
https://instagram.com/drawnwithoutref
https://ellacesari.weebly.com
Hope Lichtner is
@HopeLichtner on IG/Tumblr/AO3. good luck!
The Matrix music, clips and dialogue are all copyright Warner Brothers and we own NONE of it.
contact us at [email protected]
@MatrixQueerPod on IG/Twitter
Recommended
Transcript
The Nature of Knowledge and Truth
00:00:19
Speaker
I'd like to share a revelation with our fans. Let me tell you why you're here. I'm gonna let you in on a little sip.
00:00:34
Speaker
You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. How do you feel it? Being the one is just like being in love. All I'm offering is the truth. Nothing. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Do it through. All's the moment. Hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.
00:01:02
Speaker
isn't real. My name is Trinity, and you better take your hands off of me. Welcome. Uh, hi Ella. Hi Hope.
Host Introductions and Listener Connections
00:01:13
Speaker
How is, we should probably introduce ourselves. I said, hi, I hope. It's taken us what? Hi. We've, we've gotten there after however many episodes. Uh, somebody's finally made that connection. Congratulations. Well now, I mean, like that's, that's your version of, uh, what I get, which is Ella, Ella, Ella, a, a, a.
00:01:44
Speaker
Okay, you and I have different reference pools. What is this a poll for Rihanna? It's under my umbrella.
Names and Personal Stories
00:01:51
Speaker
Oh my god. All right So Music scene, I mean granted high hopes is what that's like the Sinatra era like that's like going away the jazz standards. Yeah
00:02:08
Speaker
My dead name is not a secret on the internet. I just will not invoke it, but speaking of- Yeah, we already did the Smith episode. If Smith didn't say it, then you know no one's gonna say it. Right, yeah. But like, just for reference, my dead name also had a very catchy pop tune from like the 40s attached to it, which is not Mac the Knife. That would have been dope. I would have stuck with Mac.
00:02:34
Speaker
Um, but, uh, in either case, my bit with my name is whenever somebody mentions hope in a movie, I just lean over to Bex and say, they're talking about me, um, which it's such a dumb bit, but I will stand by it. God damn it. Yeah. Um.
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah. So in our previous episode, if you might recall, the actual content of this show.
Podcast Style and Content Variety
00:02:59
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yes. So it's in there somewhere. I'm telling you, like this podcast, I love this podcast is because it's like it's like a sandwich with like every type of bread in there. And then you're like, I swear to God, there's meat in this sandwich. Like I swear to God. Wow.
00:03:16
Speaker
Wow, you just nailed us, my friend. Holy shit. But it's good fucking bread. It's great bread. No one's complaining about the bread. It's, um, Christ. Wow, this is nuts. I have fun with the bread.
00:03:34
Speaker
Good. Good. I'm glad you enjoy the sourdough, pumpernickel, whatever we've got going on. Yeah.
The Matrix as a Hero's Journey
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah. In our previous episode, we covered the concept of the hero's journey, the all the archetypes within and all the sort of plot tropes and the story circle that has been used over the years as sort of the mono myth, Joseph Campbell.
00:03:58
Speaker
you know, guide storytelling. And we talked about how it applies to a bunch of.
00:04:10
Speaker
We talked about how that applies to various films and stories, including The Matrix itself, particularly the first film, and how it is basically the textbook perfect example of the monomyth in action, the hero's journey from start to finish, from the call to adventure to refusing the call to
00:04:29
Speaker
passing a threshold into a new world and over time, the hero changes, meets allies, faces challenges, and returns to the world that they knew but different and changed. That was an excellent recap. Well done.
00:04:44
Speaker
Ah, shucks. You know what? Don't tell me if you had the window open. I want to live in a world where that's just magic that happened. Yeah, you'll never know and the listeners will never know. Great. I would bleep it out if you told me.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. And I mean, that that the hero's journey is basically the first Matrix movie. Mm hmm. Well, that's what that's what they had in mind when they came up with them. Exactly. Like someday these really cool trans girls are going to make a.
00:05:21
Speaker
Well, to my point, like I said, I've said this before, I've said it last episode, I said it on the first episode, I respect the original The Matrix parentheses 1999, because it utilizes the hero's journey structure
Storytelling Tropes and Matrix Sequels
00:05:36
Speaker
to info dump
00:05:38
Speaker
So much nonsense that the viewer would have had no real context for in 1999. Like AI. Son of a bitch, you pull it out first. You mean artificial intelligence? Yeah, that one. Son of a bitch. I had the conversation with myself, you know, I should really drop that, turn that into a sound drop for the show. And I'm like, no.
00:06:02
Speaker
Ella will reliably bring that bit up every single time. Every time. Great. I don't have to do any more editing work than necessary. Fantastic. I love it. Fabulous. Right. But like, you know, you have to explain to the person what the internet is or hacking or all this other horse shit. Yeah. But that's why it's so valuable to have our hero be someone who
00:06:26
Speaker
doesn't really know anything about the world that you're entering because it allows the audience to be in that character's shoes. This is notably something that the sequels brought a fucking window along with many other things. Because in the sequels, you're
00:06:43
Speaker
I mean, there's definitely stuff that Neo doesn't know about that learns about. I mean, obviously everything with the architect is being taught to Neo, but a lot of stuff the characters know and the audience doesn't. Every character knows and the audience doesn't. There is no audience avatar in those cases, but that kind of leads into our broader topic for this whole episode because it's the
00:07:07
Speaker
the sequel to our previous episode about the hero's journey, which in our notes we aptly referred to as in our list of topics. I have it down as the hero's journey slash fuck the hero's journey, which is the fact that the Matrix sequels, specifically Reloaded and Revolutions, completely buck the trend and completely
00:07:30
Speaker
abandoned the hero's journey story circle. Too interesting effect, I think, as we kind of get stretched on in our episodes about the movies themselves, but now we're gonna dive into that. They are, for lack of a better term, flawed movies. They're definitely movies. We can say with absolute certainty that they are the second and the third Matrix movies.
00:07:58
Speaker
I feel like I'm literally the host of a podcast where I'm actively defending my love of these movies.
00:08:08
Speaker
I think they're good. Joan got me a role to play. It's so strange, yeah. Yeah, I know they're flawed movies. I know they're more fun to think about than watch. Yes. Well, that's what we're here to do. We're here to think about them more than talk about the quality of the films. Yeah, because that era of CGI was already dodgy as hell. And I mean, to the point of using these storytelling tropes as tools to convey complicated information, you want like,
00:08:35
Speaker
There's nothing familiar in the original The Matrix, or at least anything that is familiar, like a cubicle desk job, is presented in the most alien way possible, and then you're entering into another buckwild, terrible world.
Dynamics of The Matrix's World
00:08:52
Speaker
You want something that's familiar, and at least the structure of the story is familiar.
00:08:58
Speaker
The world of the Matrix is familiar but unsettling, which is that intentional splinter-in-your-mind effect of how to communicate the feeling that something is wrong that you can't put your finger on, and then you get to the real world where it's very obviously completely fucked up and you need to save this world, you know? Right. But I mean, like, it's the same thing in, like, Lord of the Rings. That uses the hero's journey because... Oh, hell yeah! We're gonna have to talk about that, too, at some point. Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
I actually did my Lord of the Rings rewatch over Christmas. As a follow-up to our last episode, I spent my entire COVID quarantine just watching Lord of the Rings and taking selfies. It was a good time. Yeah, you're totally right. I don't know if we mentioned it last episode because I know they used Lord of the Rings as an example, so I apologize if I'm repeating myself from our previous episode.
00:09:51
Speaker
The concept of crossing the threshold in the hero's journey when you leave the known world and enter the unknown world is literally a scheme of like, well, this is it. I take one more step. I love it. And there's the edit where someone every time who takes another step, they play that clip. Shit. What's the running time on that shit? And for a Lord of the Rings thing, it's long. And that's saying something.
00:10:20
Speaker
Um, uh, let's see if I can find it. Um, you're right. I'm going to know. None of these are the appropriate length for it to be that. Oh, Shrek. But every time he takes a step, it speeds up by 5%. Now that I'm in for, um, did I lose you? Hello.
00:10:46
Speaker
Oh, no. What? Oh, I thought I lost you. And I talked as if I had lost you. And now I should probably open edit notes so I can edit out this vamping. Son of a bitch. Matrix edit notes. Fuck the hero's journey. Six. Lotta bullshit. All right. I'll know to cut that out now.
00:11:15
Speaker
Yay. I feel like since I didn't think this episode concept was primarily your sort of brainchild. So why don't you like kind of start us off and all right. So because we because I am so incredibly lazy and I will be using Wikipedia as my source for this. If you want to look up the Wikipedia entry for the seven basic plots,
00:11:41
Speaker
Uh, colon why we tell stories is a 2004 book by Christopher Booker containing a young influence that is young, right? 2004 film adaptation by Christopher Filmer. Terrible, terrible. Um,
00:12:01
Speaker
influence analysis, the stories and their psychological meaning. Booker worked on the book for 34 years. Holy shit. Well, yeah, I mean, got to live up to your name, right? Yeah, you got it. You got it. OK, but it's like he wants me to make this joke because the cover is a little.
00:12:23
Speaker
miserable. Um, God, I love it. It's like, it's like the days where like the olden days where your surname was your job, right? Like, Hey, you keep keeping it real. I respect.
00:12:39
Speaker
And what I truly love about this article, having read through it earlier, is it starts off under the summary with the meta plot, which is a real quick breakdown of the hero's journey. And I feel like it's one of those things where they're trying not to say those words. And it's like, no, like, yeah, when you have to when you have to get it now, you have to paraphrase. Right. Exactly. It definitely goes that way.
00:13:07
Speaker
And yet I think I gel more with this than what we talked about in the previous, cause I mean, I'll, I guess I'll just skim it real quick for the listeners who might not be following along. It says the meta plot begins with the anticipation stage where the hero is called to the adventure.
00:13:23
Speaker
followed by a dream stage, the adventure begins, the hero has some success, has an illusion of invincibility, but then there's a frustration phase where the hero confronts enemies, the illusion's lost. Nightmare stage is the climax of the plot where the hope is apparently lost, and then the resolution where you overcome the odds. I think I like that, I think that feels more flexible and more like sort of transient than the hard like steps of a journey.
00:13:49
Speaker
I think this allows for more flexibility and it's also like that's more universally applicable to stories I think as far as like the where you feel certain emotions.
00:14:06
Speaker
It was, it reminds me of, I don't, I don't know if it's still up. I guess it is. I don't know where a lot of her stuff ended up nowadays. Cause I know she's semi-retired, but like Lindsay Ellis did a video about the three X structure and like, what is the purpose of it? Like, what does it actually mean? And she essentially, I believe like concluded with that the three X structure is relevant because it signifies the buildup and release of different tensions throughout the plot. Like of like.
00:14:35
Speaker
you know, what's going to happen. And then there's a certain conflict or question that's set up at the beginning of an act that is paid off or resolved at the end of the act. And then that leads into the next one. And it's not always concrete plot stuff, but it's about your emotional reactions to things. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Feels more human than just the
00:14:59
Speaker
The, the very architect like breakdown checklist. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's very save the cat. It is. Yeah. And it's also remembering that like stories are for people, like stories are for audiences, not for like, not for calculators. Um, Texas instruments wants a word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the word will be boobies.
00:15:30
Speaker
I set the dials when I can at work too for 2069 because I am a child. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's, I think keeping in mind what's really important when you're telling a story is like the people you are telling it to. Um, exactly. Yeah. I'm such like an angry, uh, almost, uh, uh, uh,
00:15:54
Speaker
God, what's the word? Iconoclast, I guess, whenever I'm presented with a list of like plot structures, whatever, I immediately want to disprove the theory. It's like, nope, I'm going to, I'm going to see if I can cram Ponyo in here. Ha ha. I can't. Yeah. Cause like, well, I mean, this much more Western, right? It's a very Western, not that I use the term Western. I, this is something I definitely brought up in the previous episode, but I think it bears repeating of like,
00:16:22
Speaker
I think saying like a Western culture or Western like society is sometimes used by not very great people as a dog whistle for not very great things. Oh my god, yeah.
00:16:34
Speaker
But, you know, you know, and with that said, yeah, you're right. Like most like Ghibli movies, for instance, like take time to breathe in ways that most films don't. So it's harder to fit that in. God, we watched so much Ghibli lately. I've just got Hayao Miyazaki on the brain these days, but I found it on eBay for 40 bucks. The complete works. All we're missing is the boy in the Heron.
00:16:59
Speaker
And holy shit, it's been a good time. We made ramen with Panyo and it was the best. Ten stars. Panyo was there. Sasuke loved Panyo and Panyo loved Ham. These are two facts that I know. Hold these truths to be self-evident. Exactly. And Panyo loved Ham. We can ditch one of those amendments for that.
00:17:28
Speaker
And by the transit of property, Sasuke loves ham. Yes, exactly. Correct. This is math. But like you were saying, going back to this Wikipedia article, this breakdown of the meta plot, as it were, is much more emotionally driven and feels more just human. It feels more English major than math major. Right. Exactly. Like Kiki doesn't have like a Dr. Robotnik she's trying to fight. No.
00:17:58
Speaker
No. But she does have these phases of her story where she begins setting out to the city. She has the success with monetizing her magic abilities. Then she gets kind of frustrated with it and then she loses it. And then she has to fight to regain that. Yeah, it's like the antagonist is depression.
00:18:23
Speaker
Mm hmm. Burnout. It's it's not even like it's not even like quote unquote man versus self or anything like. Yeah, which is what that's what I that's what I thought this was going to be. Yeah. When you said the seven basic plots, I was expecting that thing of like, oh, man versus man, man versus, you know, whatever. No, the only one of those that I truly love is man versus machine, because that feels like my day to day life.
00:18:46
Speaker
That's also the matrix. It is also the man is you know, man is flexible Especially for us and for fittingly for the matrix when we when we see a set of rules or a set of things It's like this is how things are always want this or this or this we're like no
00:19:08
Speaker
I mean, it's the entire problem with like pronouns and labels and all of that stuff just in a broader term. You're trying to define something that isn't entirely definable.
00:19:24
Speaker
Yes, you need to define every kind of chair while encompassing everything that is a chair and not... Exactly. You're not going to find a one-size-fits-all scenario. Like, I'm a 38-year-old, late-in-life, trans, she-her, and I like to describe myself as a power milf. Like, what the fuck does that mean? That doesn't mean goddamned anything, but it works for me. That's not going to be on any drop-down...
00:19:50
Speaker
I mean, in my perfect world, when I am queen, it will be, it will be the only option. All hail, please remember me when you make it to the top. Thank you, thank you. I would love to see that on my passport. Yes. But yeah, it's fitting that, of course, the Matrix sequels of all movies would be the ones to say, like, well, why does this system exist? You know, we made a movie that is the perfect encaps- We perfected this.
00:20:23
Speaker
We don't need it anymore. Exactly. Exactly. It's the entire point of The Matrix. And I mean, the theme, well, to me anyway, but the theme of the movies overall is just trying to break out of cycles. We've said this many times before, break out of cycles that you don't even realize you're trapped in. And one of those cycles happens to be the story structure concept. Right. And they just jump out the window.
00:20:43
Speaker
Now let's throw it out, you know?
00:20:52
Speaker
for these in a great way. Right. Exactly. Which is why I love it so much. Also, the machine fighting is so cool. Yes. The idea that the story structure itself and the hero's journey is in itself reflective of, you know, societal patterns that are that are oppressive. I mean, it's same thing with I'm sure we'll do an episode about this separately, but like the idea of chosen one and the hero themselves is like
00:21:19
Speaker
Oh, God. That's inherently putting people above others. That's putting someone as more special and more important than others, which is speaking of. Yeah. Speaking of. Right. Speaking of a profit profit, a ties chosen one movie from 1999. Bex and I recently rewatched for the first time for me and got to be like in 12 years, Phantom Menace. OK, I was wondering what you were getting at. I was like, what could that be?
00:21:46
Speaker
Fucking movie god damn it first off. They've replaced the puppet Yoda with CGI Yoda Okay, but that it's fuck that I get it. I get your frustration. However that movie looked like ass I'm not disagreeing with you. The character is off model, but you are disrespecting the work of Frank fucking George
00:22:14
Speaker
He, it's like they took, it's like they're like, we're trying to replicate the original Yoda puppet and it's like they took it out of storage and the latex had degraded and they were like, yeah, we'll just make it look like that. No, you make it look like how it looked before.
00:22:30
Speaker
If anything, they should use CG to replace it with a fucking Last Jedi puppet. That one looked fine. That one. I mean, that was a real puppet that they just made glowy blue in CGI. So like the ears are wiggling. Oh, God. Film the, you know, film that puppet replace. Yeah. In that fucking movie. It's so fucking frustrating anyway. But yes, speaking of frustrating.
00:22:58
Speaker
We're both very passionate about Muppets. We are. And I mean, I expect nothing less from most people. Yes. I'm I'm itching to rewatch Treasure Island. Unrelated. But that one's great. That one's great. I love that fucking movie. OK, so the seven plots. Do we want to start cracking into them or how much? So what were you trying? Was there a different point you wanted to make? Oh, shit.
00:23:29
Speaker
God damn, uh, yeah, the prophecy thing. Like I had, I, this especially hits for me because like, again, this is where that generational difference comes in. You were literally born in 1999. Right. I was born, yeah. Born to a virgin birth. Well, yeah, exactly.
00:23:54
Speaker
I can't even, no, no, can, can, can. Um, but my father, I'm like, well, it's, it's Palpatine. It's implied that it's Palpatine. I'm going to throw every, I'm going to find George Lucas and throw him out a window. Um, but.
00:24:10
Speaker
So, my point is, I grew up with there only being three Star Wars movies. You came into consciousness when there was already at least four Star Wars movies. That's true, yes. So, the idea of- I remember seeing teaser trailers for Attack of the Clones and then not- Yeah, not worth the hype. I'm not getting it because I don't know if I had even seen the originals. I recognized R2 and 3PO and that was it.
00:24:38
Speaker
I mean, those are the two, yeah. But like, besides getting into my deeper anger and frustration at Star Wars at large, there had never- Which I feel like I goad you into once an episode. You do, you do. We also invoke Shrek once an episode, and this is the worst drinking game ever. Yeah, yeah. But,
00:25:04
Speaker
There had never been a chosen one mentioned in Star Wars before. There had never been a brings balance to the force in Star Wars before. Um, so this was entirely at a left field and all of a sudden it's like, Oh shit, there's a chosen one.
00:25:20
Speaker
But we know he's Darth Vader. Oh, no. It's all very frustrating to me, which is why I really respect and love The Matrix so much for making a good chosen one prophecy movie and then completely chucking it out the window in the sequels. I love that because it's doing the reverse.
00:25:45
Speaker
Because if the original three Star Wars films in isolation, I promise we'll make Star Wars relevant to this episode as you as you have teed it up. But I mean, you've already made it relevant, but I'm here to sort of help that out for once.
00:26:03
Speaker
Is that, you know, looking at the original trilogy in isolation without the, before the prequels even came into the picture, you're seeing a guy who, you know, fell to the dark side and by his own will, you know, I struggle to say redeemed himself because he did kill a fucking lot of people. Um, but he, you know,
00:26:24
Speaker
He did something noble and important, you know, he did something good out of love, you know, for the first time and who knows how long out of his own will. And that's the story. And then they introduce this prophecy element and it retroactively makes that preordained.
00:26:43
Speaker
Right. Exactly. And incredibly frustrating. Because it's like there's that kind of irony of like, oh, well, he fell to the dark side. So the prophecy wasn't fulfilled. But then he killed the emperor. So technically, the prophecy was fulfilled, I guess. Yeah. Which was balanced. He brought balance to the force, except I guess he didn't because there's still guys around and we're making more movies. But who cares? Yeah, it's this.
00:27:08
Speaker
We're going to do, I feel like, a whole angry episode about Star Wars at some point. I'm just getting that feeling. We have to. But like, yes, I think the context of everything is very important. I would love to do an episode just about 1999 as a year in film. There's already an entire podcast about it called
00:27:29
Speaker
podcast like it's 1999 and it's just kind of incredible what a bananas year for cinema that I mean the matrix Star Wars episode won the Phantom Menace Fight Club it's just my all-time favorite movies and it says on my letterbox matrix and Toy Story 2 are both 1999
00:27:50
Speaker
Toy Story 2. Yeah, exactly. It's absolutely bananas that year alone and the context that The Matrix became the first million selling DVD out of that insane lineup. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. So I guess the point I was trying to make is that while Star Wars, you know, introduces this narrative structure into itself and it
00:28:18
Speaker
Damages the quality of the storytelling Matrix does the opposite matrix takes the structure that it had and throws it out and You know arguably makes worse movies, but it It adds depth is what it does. Oh Yeah, yeah, you can't deny that they're deep movies regardless of how you feel about them of their quality and
00:28:45
Speaker
They're also deliberately trying to invoke the literal resurrection. They have written into the script, people only say, Jesus Christ, or whatever in reference to Neo. Yeah, my own personal Jesus Christ, man. Right, exactly. It's incredibly deliberate, those films. It's a man thing. Whereas Star Wars just feels so tacked on top of everything else.
00:29:15
Speaker
right it's not like baked into the the the piece oh yeah you're right everything is yeah everything is is uh has a purpose but what is purpose
00:29:35
Speaker
Just took me over again in that shit, okay Well, it's he'll have to stay longer next time or give me some notice. I'll bake him a nice omelet or something
00:29:51
Speaker
OK, so the story structures. Yes. We're more than half an hour in and we've already established that, yes, this is a Matrix podcast and we're huge fucking dorks. To be fair, we did talk a bit about the Matrix already. We did. I think it's interesting. This episode, I was thinking about how to go about this episode. It's almost like it's like proving a negative. Like we're talking about how the Matrix sequels don't do something. It's like it's hard to kind of
00:30:19
Speaker
you know, back up, you know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I think we're doing it. I think we're doing it. I think we're there. So the plots, the first plot listed under the Wikipedia article for the seven basic plots, if just as a reminder to where we were, if you're reading along. Number one, overcoming the monster. The protagonist sets out to defeat an antagonistic force parentheses.
00:30:48
Speaker
often evil that threatens the protagonist and slash or the protagonist's homeland. And I love this, they cite examples. Perseus, Theseus, Beowulf, Dracula, the War of the Worlds, Nicholas Nickleby, the Guns of Navarone, the Seven Samurai, parentheses, Magnificent Seven, James Bond, Jaws, Star Wars, Naruto, and some other bullshit. I love that in there with Perseus and Theseus.
00:31:17
Speaker
Nerudo feels, I know nothing about that show to be fair, but it sounds one of these things is not like the other. I mean, I believe it, you know, I certainly believe it. I believe it. I believe it. It's just Nerudo feels like a punchline of a title to me. And that's probably mean, but... No, Harry Potter is the real punchline of a title.
00:31:37
Speaker
I mean, to be fair, yeah, but like Seven Samurai, Jaws, Star Wars, Naruto. OK, I realize a lot in terms of storytelling where like, oh, sorry, you're finished. Oh, no, by all means, keep going. I think about a lot is that.
00:31:54
Speaker
stories in which the driving force of the story is the villain and the villain is going to do something and you have to stop them as versus character just wants something and goes out after it and maybe there's a villain along the way, you know?
00:32:11
Speaker
Exactly. This is it's it's yeah, it's true. It's antagonist driven. So then next one is so. Yeah. We have rags to riches is the next story. The definition being the poor protagonist acquires power, wealth and or a mate loses it all and gains it back. Growing as a person as a result. I think it's, you know, stories about about class, I suppose. Hmm.
00:32:38
Speaker
Yeah, so we have Cinderella, Aladdin, Jane Eyre, the Ugly Duckling, the Prince and the Popper. A lot of those. I won't go down the whole list. Yeah, that's fair. I just had fun listing all that shit. But yeah, no, that was a good list. There's a couple of decent lists on this list. Yeah.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah. Rags to riches. That's fairly straightforward. Um, did you have anything to add about rags to riches? I think I'm just like, yeah, no, you nailed it. It's a class story. Yeah. It's a classic story.
00:33:15
Speaker
One of the seven. The quest. The protagonist and companion set out to acquire an important object or to get to a location. Wow, I misread that as to get a location. That's a real estate joke. They face temptations and other obstacles along the way.
00:33:36
Speaker
So vague. Love it. The Iliad, Lord of the Rings, the divine comedy, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I mean, who's who's pranking us by making these lists? Technically, Wikipedia comedians, man. Wikimedia. Yeah. But yeah, but like Raiders of the Lost Ark.
00:34:00
Speaker
Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Please put Last Crusade next to Holy Grail, please. Yeah. Please. Whatever. Voyage in return is the next. The protagonist goes to a strange land and after overcoming the threats it poses or learning important lessons you need to that location, returns with experience. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, The Hobbit,
00:34:22
Speaker
Uh, back to the future, the lion, the witch and the wardrobe, Gulliver's travels, Peter Pan. Goldilocks and the three bears is an interesting choice. That hadn't occurred to me when I was glancing down this list, huh? All right. I guess that's technically true. Um, does she, uh, does she return in that story? I don't know.
00:34:50
Speaker
I never really knew what the lesson of that one was supposed to be. Gonna be real. It's been more than 30 years since I've heard... Most of my exposure to Goldilocks... I've totally engaged with that story, yeah. Most of my exposure to Goldilocks has been through parody where she just gets mauled by bears, so...
00:35:09
Speaker
I don't really know what the lesson is. I think it's also it's to me it was always it was less of a morality tale and more of just like a sesame street sort of thing to understand the concepts of like this is too too hot too cold this is just right this is too you know it was more of a I don't know at any rate what's the next one
00:35:31
Speaker
Okay. Well, no, hang on. Sorry. We have to say this. I made the mistake of clicking on the licky wink to Goldilocks in the three pairs. The licky wink? The wicky link. He said licky wink. Look, you know, I record these pretty high. Yeah, but licky wink is really funny.
00:35:51
Speaker
and I'm gonna write that down. Don't read into it, kids. The Licky Wink. The Licky Wink. 19th century English fairy tale of which three versions exist. The original version of the tale tells of an impudent old woman who enters the forest home of three anthropomorphic bachelor bears while they are away. She eats some of their porridge, sits on one of the chairs, breaks, slaves, the golden locks. Okay.
00:36:21
Speaker
Have you ever heard of a version of that story? Were you at as a child? No, I never interact with an old lady. That's amazing. Shrek should have done that because that was rules.
00:36:37
Speaker
There's just three single guys living in the bear city. You know, they're not gay or anything. Certainly not. They're not three normal, regular bachelor bears, all with mustaches living in the 19th century. Christ. They're actually just, they're actually just big hairy guys. Oh God. Bachelor bears.
00:37:02
Speaker
Well, now we have to look TM, TM, TM, TM. We're going to fill this ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Anything to add a voyage in return? And did you cover that one or did I? It's definitely, oh, I covered this one, but it's definitely closest to, I think what, what Joseph Campbell, like, you know, but the Campbell idea is like, yeah, going to a weird place and retry because the thing about.
00:37:29
Speaker
The Campbellian circle, or, you know, however, whatever you want, whatever you want to call it, is that it usually specifies a return to what you knew and you return with the experience and the knowledge or whatever you've gained, but you know, the return of the elixir. Yeah.
00:37:48
Speaker
But sometimes you don't return. Luke doesn't return. A lot of characters don't return to where they were necessarily, because where they were wasn't necessarily good for them. Which is why, again, I like the stages more. The last stage of the meta plot in this book is just the resolution. It is simply that. Yeah, much more vague.
00:38:14
Speaker
as it were, and these are all very vague and probably none more vague than this next one, which is just comedy. Mm hmm. This feels diminutive. Like it's shake. I mean, it's the Shakespearean sense, right? I get it. I get it. Yeah. But it's like if that's the sense, then we've bastardized the word comedy. Yeah, we have.
00:38:41
Speaker
Light and humorous character with a happy or cheerful ending. A dramatic work in which, sorry, semicolon, a dramatic work in which the central motif is the triumph over adverse circumstance, resulting in a successful or happy conclusion. Booker stresses that comedy is more than humor.
00:39:03
Speaker
Uh, it's, uh, yeah, examples. It's a lot of Shakespeare. Midsummer. Nothing 12th night taming of the shrew. Um, Bridget Jones's diary. And I'm going to take contention with this one. The big Lebowski. There is no, I mean, that was more, that was definitely one of Shakespeare's lesser known works, but.
00:39:23
Speaker
I do have a Shakespeare style adaptation of the Big Lebowski floating around somewhere. It's like Gentlemen of Lebowski. It's one of those. It was like the Star Wars ones. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But like if you've seen the Big Lebowski, the man does not come out on top at the end of the movie. He is very much I think comedy of errors is still comedy, you know, like it could be like
00:39:55
Speaker
I think it's more speaking more to tone than like what actually happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's just one of those things like a lot of bullshit around the Golden Globes recently, but they deliberately do like best comedy or slash musical and best trauma. And those are incredibly loose definitions of both of those things.
00:40:19
Speaker
comedy slash musical like so fucking like play me like fucking miss. Come on. Yeah, Tommy. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, I don't know if I necessarily agree with I'm sure reading the actual book would get more in depth here, but and I might change my mind if I did. But yeah, I don't know if I necessarily agree with putting a category that is largely about tone in a list of specifically plot related.
00:40:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's such an odd word to apply to it. At any rate, the next one is the tragedy, where the protagonist is a hero with a major character flaw or a great mistake, which is ultimately their undoing. The protagonist is unfortunate and evokes pity at their folly in the fall of a fundamentally good character, which is why Little Shop of Horrors needed that original ending. This is the point of tragedy. Hello. He turned it into a comedy.
00:41:20
Speaker
Uh, it's. And again, it's a lot of that soundtrack. It's a lot of Shakespeare, of course. We got, uh, Julie Caesar and Macbeth, uh, Hamlets. Then we got the great Gadsby picture, Dorian gray.
00:41:38
Speaker
Uh, Hamilton. Interesting. Yeah. I guess that makes sense. It makes sense. I think, uh, this is something I've talked about, you know, ad nauseam on Mr. Shaq, look back and something I really want to talk about on, on your podcast hope, but my favorite movie of all time, Phantom of the paradise. I would honestly classify as a tragedy, even though it's a very like, you know, wacky sort of film.
00:41:58
Speaker
Um, Oh, absolutely. I mean, knowing, knowing fan of the opera. Yeah, exactly. A lot of tragedy too. Yeah. I mean, Citizen Kane is also listed on here. So yeah, it makes, makes perfect sense. Um, yeah.
00:42:16
Speaker
Uh, let's see. But again, it's the same thing that we were saying before with comedy. It's like tragedy is such a loose term that means nothing to the tone of the movie. You say the word or it's exclusively about the story. It's not about the plot. Right. I mean, yeah, it's more tone of a word than it is plot of a word. It definitely gives us a little more information because it does tell you like.
00:42:42
Speaker
This is where this is going to end. Like, it's not going to end well. You know, like, yes, a comedy, a comedy could end, like you said, with Big Lebowski, a comedy could end with with, you know, like you're losing. But you know what it is? Yeah, they're coming at it from a point of view of the characters within the story. I'm coming at it from the point of view of the audience member. God damn it. Right. Because that is what I am interacting with all of these stories as I am the audience. I like those. Damn it.
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I like those that list of phases of a story. I think that's exactly
00:43:20
Speaker
Yeah, the next one listed is Rebirth, which I guess you could also call resurrection. An event forces the main character to change their ways and often become a better individual. Crime and Punishment, Frog Prince, Beauty and the Beast, Christmas Carol, Groundhog Day.
00:43:43
Speaker
I don't know if I would say an event. I might just say the course of the story, you know, whatever happens in the story. Yeah, I guess it's more like character rebirth rather than a literal Groundhog Day scenario. No, I mean, Groundhog Day would would count, right? Because he does change his ways. He does change his ways over time. He is a new man, as it were at the end of the movie.
00:44:12
Speaker
So, and of course, again, my temptation with this, as we said earlier, whenever you're given a set of things and it says all things are one of these things, I'm like. Yeah, exactly. No, what about, like, you know? Right. No, we're rebellious assholes, damn it. We're going to wear black trench coats and cool sunglasses and try to disprove your theory on plots. Yeah, I'm going to make a movie that falls into none of these.
00:44:40
Speaker
just to spite you and the movie is going to be terrible. It's going to suck. It's not going to do well financially or critically, but it'll prove you wrong. Now, to be fair, The Matrix Reloaded was a major blockbuster summer of 2003. It was like until a few years later when Passion of the Christ came out, it was the top grossing R rated picture of all time. Wow. Yeah. Wow.
00:45:06
Speaker
Yeah, because yeah, I think Deadpool is in that spot now. I forget now, but for a brief glimmer now to also be fair, the drop off between that and revolutions was substantial. I think revolutions made one hundred and thirty total as opposed to like seven hundred and thirty something. So yeah. Yeah. Buckwild. So then, OK, why don't we
00:45:34
Speaker
Why don't we use what we've just learned and try it. Let's, let's prove our theory that, that it goes out by trying to, to fit, uh, reloaded and revolutions into these, these things. Like, oh, shit. Okay. All right. That sounds like the best way to sort of test our, our, our, I like this. Yes, absolutely.
00:45:56
Speaker
I got to sit up because now I'm all excited. I take it. I was going to say we can pull up, you know, the plot summaries of the movies, but I think you know them well enough. I mean, I mean, me not know a plot point in Reloaded or Revolutions. So the anticipation stage, the hero is called to the adventure would probably
00:46:23
Speaker
because they get the intel that the machines are planning to drill and design on.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yes, if you follow along in the multimedia sensation of the animatrix, you'll know that in the final flight of the Osiris, they literally send out a letter to let the rest of Zion know that the machines are in fact coming. So we were anticipating The Matrix Reloaded and that plot, since the movie Dreamcatcher came out in theaters, I want to say in late 2002.
00:46:59
Speaker
Actually, no, wait, hold on. I'm doing I'm doing this wrong. This is OK. We should try to fit it into the Campbell one that we did in the last episode. Can you can you pull that one up? Oh, oh, the Campbell hero structure. Yes, yes. I think that one's going to be more interesting because. OK, all right. Yeah, we did this right. You can you can actually cut that out entirely. OK, fair enough. I had let me just make it. There we go.
00:47:31
Speaker
So I think the best way to prove our concept about these sequels not abiding by that Cambellian structure is to try to fit them into there. So let's pull that up. All right, so just to be clear, we are trying to cram reloaded and or revolutions into the hero's journey structure.
00:47:59
Speaker
Right. And I don't even know what plot we would call those. Like, I would say, reloaded.
00:48:08
Speaker
Reload, it's probably overcoming the monster because we're setting out to defeat. I mean, it your revolutions is definitely overcoming the monster because he's literally fighting Smith. The whole point of the big, you know, the people in Zion are trying to overcome being annihilated and.
00:48:32
Speaker
Neo is literally fighting the monstrous Smith. I think we'd have a much easier time with those cramming it in one of their ideas. It's a tragedy. They're all dead. It's a comedy. Morpheus is doing great at the end of the movies. A new man.
00:48:51
Speaker
is reborn. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Smith very briefly was reborn. So yes, okay. So the I think these ones, I'm glad we talked about them, because I think they kind of demonstrate how restrictive the original hero's journey is.
00:49:10
Speaker
Yeah, they're so much more loose and defined, undefined, undefined? Sure. They're so much more vague. And as we just demonstrated, you can cram almost anything into one of those things. So they're not particularly helpful to, like,
00:49:32
Speaker
trying to write a story. But the hero's journey, however, is a proven tried and true formula for selling your absolute nonsense. So it starts off in the ordinary world. The ordinary world in Reloaded is, I guess, everybody wearing loose knit sweaters in what looks like a submarine underground.
00:50:00
Speaker
Like, ordinary to whom? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I guess it's ordinary to the characters, but like, not to Neo, necessarily. Yeah, characters versus audience, again. Call to adventure, that's definitely like, if not- That's the transmission from the Osiris. Right, if it's not the Osiris, then it's literally Neo getting the message from the Oracle.
00:50:28
Speaker
45 minutes into the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Refusal of the call. I guess Neo doesn't want Trinity to die. So he doesn't want to. You know, has like that argument with the with the Oracle about like finding out that she's a program and he doesn't like the fact that he's not theoretically not in control of his own destiny. Hmm. But that's not really refusing to like
00:50:58
Speaker
Try to save everybody. That's because I think that's... Yeah, no, I don't. Yeah, unless you're counting like the call to adventure is the dream that he has where Trinity falls and dies. And he is actively trying to refuse that specific scenario. I guess. Yeah.
00:51:21
Speaker
but it doesn't serve the same function that the refusal does, typically. Well, how about meeting with the mentor? Okay, he does meet with the oracle. He does meet with the oracle, that's true. Let's see, crossing the first threshold, what would the threshold be in the fucking sequels? When they go to the Meravigian maybe?
00:51:53
Speaker
that be the first thresh? Hmm. Because it's the first location that's like completely new. I guess. I mean, the Burley Brawl happens on a playground. So just to like call it back to the original, they've got this listed here. I'm just looking at the graph we used last episode. Neo chooses the red pill and wakes up from the matrix as crossing the first threshold. So
00:52:22
Speaker
I guess, yeah, going into the Merovingian's place, like willingly. Even if we can kind of slot these in, none of these moments are as literal or in your face or textbook as, because the refusal of the call in the matrix is literally a phone call that Neo says, Nope, not doing that. And then the crossing of the threshold is literally him waking up in an entirely new world. Um, and, and the ones here are just.
00:52:52
Speaker
They're not they're clearly not as intentional. Yeah. These are clearly like us trying to like it's the same reason I like the original Star Wars parentheses. Nineteen seventy seven because it's the perfect streamlined clear cut version of this exact thing conveying vast quantities of knowledge in a very
00:53:14
Speaker
brief, concise way using this structure as a guide, which, I mean, tests allies and enemies. You've got to shitload more ship captains and you've got to shitload more smiths. Yeah, and you got monster mass. Yeah, it's true. What's left? I guess the meeting approach. Well, it's approach to the innermost cave.
00:53:44
Speaker
I would call that going to the source, right? That's definitely him meeting up with like the fucking architect. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see the ordeal. I guess the ordeal would be the literalization of his nightmare of Trinity falling. Yeah, I guess that would be his low point. I guess so. I mean. The reward.
00:54:13
Speaker
That could be Neo retaining his displaying powers in the real world that he previously only had in the Matrix. I mean, we're at the end of the movie already, not counting the five extra minutes that probably should have been cut. Yeah. But we've still got like four more steps to go. Yeah. That's why I don't really care for this is because it breaks it down so piecemeal that like,
00:54:42
Speaker
It's it's really hard. Even even movies that do follow it really strongly are hard. Exactly. Yeah. Like, I mean, we had some arguments about this in our last episode, even like some of the examples they use, like the ordeal is. God Almighty, I'm not. It was The Lion King. I think we had a lot of shit with their examples. Yeah. The ordeal was
00:55:12
Speaker
Simba must choose to save his kingdom or keep his new life. The ordeal is Hakuna Matata. That's the ordeal. It's it's rough. When I think we agreed on that, that's just an extended refusal of the call. Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:32
Speaker
But let's see, the reward is Neo going up to Morpheus and saying, hey, all that shit's not true. We're all going to die. It was all planned from the beginning. Our extinction is inevitable. Here we go. Yeah. And again, that's demonstrating that sort of meta narrative of like, hey, that
00:55:52
Speaker
That structure that you clung to like a security blanket is bullshit. And we have to find our own way in this life. Exactly. Yeah. It's it's what I respect of these movies and what so many people hate about these movies. And it doesn't help that it's done in by such a pretentious dude that looks like Colonel Sanders. The road back, the road, I guess.
00:56:22
Speaker
It's him flying very, very fast through the city. Sure. Yeah. The resurrection parentheses, 2021. Yeah. Yeah. Literally, he resurrects somebody else. He goes, he pulls the bullet out, right? And then defibrillates her. Yeah.
00:56:47
Speaker
And then the return with the elixir. And as stated, the elixir is, hey, it's all a lie. We're all going to die. Hurray. Yes. To be concluded.
00:57:00
Speaker
And this ignores so much of the movie. So much of the movie is lost when you try to view it through this lens. And I guarantee you, revolutions is going to come out even worse. Oh, God. We're going to do revolutions next, aren't we? Shit.
00:57:18
Speaker
Okay. We have to. We have to. No, you're right. You're right. Unless we tried to fit them both into the same circle, but I don't think that would work either because I think what we said in other respective episodes is that Reloaded does have its own story. Like it's a part one, but it also
00:57:34
Speaker
does kind of have its own like beginning, middle and end with this with this. It does. They just fail to nail like the emotional arcs like I would. Sometime down the line. Yeah. Sometime down the line, I want to zero in on like middle movies like Back to the Future Part Two or The Two Towers and and this because I think Back to the Future and Lord of the Rings really nail that middle act where you're waiting
00:58:05
Speaker
upwards of a year between movies, but you need that emotional arc to have a satisfying ending. So you're not walking out of the theater going, Hey, who the fuck was that upside down dude in that last shot? That felt like a big stinger. And then you don't care. Like, yeah. And then you don't care about the movie that's coming out a few months later.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, or like Bex has an amazing take on the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie. I'd love to pick their brain on that subject. Their take on that quote unquote trilogy is great. I'll make a note about the middle movies in general. Exactly. God, I'm glad you're the note keeper for this show.
00:58:49
Speaker
We should just start giving ourselves artificial titles like scribe. Yeah, I like it. So yeah, I guess revolutions starts. How does it? I don't even remember how that movie started. It starts in limbo, right? Oh, God. Revolutions, my dear, dear November the 5th, 2003 revolution. Remember, remember.
00:59:15
Speaker
Oh, God, it's November. My. Yeah, the ordinary world, the ordinary world trinities in fucking goes to fucking hell and Neo is in limbo. Congrats to the ordinary world. We open on Trinity, right? Going to the BDSM dungeon. Is that right?
00:59:37
Speaker
We open on, yes, we open on the interior of the ship, the Mjolnir. Trinity is in Med Bay. They get called into the Matrix, but oh, well, there's the call to the adventure. They get called into the Matrix by the Oracle, specifically Serif. But of course, they don't refuse though, because it's about saving
01:00:02
Speaker
They don't, they don't. So yeah, refusal of the call. They don't, meeting with the mentor. Neo does meet up with the Oracle one last time. When I Googled Matrix Revolutions, the cast, the first person listed is Monica Balochius Persephone.
01:00:27
Speaker
Is she having a comeback? Those results are usually SEO oriented. I hope so. Gosh, good for her. Yeah, so it's. I'm trying to think of what the refusal would even be.
01:00:44
Speaker
Would that be Trinity holding a gun to the Merovingian's head and refusing to go along with his bullshit? I don't have time for this bullshit or whatever. If so, that is my favorite refusal of the call of all time. It could be Neo refusing to stay trapped in limbo, but being trapped in limbo isn't exactly a call to adventure.
01:01:08
Speaker
No, I mean, is his fun and interesting conversation with Ramakandra, my best friend, a call to adventure, or is it a weird meditative dialogue about the concept of love as perceived by artificial intelligence? Yeah. Who knows for sure. Meeting with the mentor.
01:01:37
Speaker
He meets up with the Oracle again. Yeah. OK, fine. Crossing the first threshold. Ah, yeah. Getting on the logos. Ah, um. First threshold would be. Yeah, I guess that's when they part ways, right? That's when.
01:02:02
Speaker
they set off to do their respective things. I guess that would have to be, yeah. Because the next one is tests, allies, and enemies. That entire 45 minute fucking shit. That's that, yeah. I love tests, allies, and enemies because you can throw whatever bullshit in there and it counts.
01:02:25
Speaker
It is kind of the only all purpose. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Approach the innermost cave. Okay. We found one that actually fits.
01:02:45
Speaker
We found one that stuck. The ordeal. He gets kicked in the face a bunch by Smith. All right. Well, I mean, I guess he also flies. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I'm being rude to Trinity. So is the movie, to be fair. I mean, that death sequence is...
01:03:06
Speaker
Oh, they did themselves so dirty between the sunglasses and burning out the eyes. I understand the metaphor from the eye burning, but man, Keanu already had a reputation for being wooden at that point. Mickey, take away his eyes. That's why I think that every Matrix team, every like Zion team should have had a different aesthetic. Yes. And where are the Spiderverse cosplayers? Exactly.
01:03:34
Speaker
The reward. I guess the reward. You got one for this one. Maybe it's him. His peace offering to the machines. I guess. The allowing entrance to defeat Smith. I guess he's given a chance. Yeah, that's that's valid. The road back.
01:04:03
Speaker
Okay, well then maybe the ordeal is the entire Smith fight then because I think we're already at like... No, I guess the road back could be at re-entering the Matrix, right? That is technically going back to somewhere he's been. Ah, that's fair. That is fair. Because then we have the resurrection, right? Which I guess you could see as... Neo die. Neo gets assimilated and then blows him up. Right, which...
01:04:32
Speaker
could really be also stretching the definition of return with the elixir. He's able to return Smith's source code to the machine city, who then annihilates it. Yeah, well, he's able to return to his body and die, but he returns with peace. He returns with the end of the war. Yeah.
01:05:02
Speaker
Yeah, I can kind of see that. That entire 45 minute stretch of them fighting the robots, like it doesn't matter that they did. That's, I think, the most irritating thing about it. Yeah, it's like this is old hat for the machines. Yeah. Yeah. As much as I love the APUs and just the general aesthetic and vibes of all of that, it's just like I don't have any deep emotional connection to anybody here. Yeah.
01:05:39
Speaker
Han and Leia on Endor for the back half of Return of the Jedi. It's like, OK, so now there's nobody in the space battle that we care about, particularly besides Lando. And we're already mixed on his whole deal because of the last movie. Right. Exactly. I mean, at least they every moving part there accomplished something. They needed the shield to be down. They needed the Death Star blown up.
01:05:59
Speaker
It's the same problem of putting
01:06:05
Speaker
And that that was a two part operation. We needed to sell teddy bears. I mean, we know teddy bears. We really did need to sell those teddy bears. George just made a shitload of them. Oh, no. And wrote them into the movie. Look, when he got when he agreed to get 90 percent of the or 100 percent of the of the merch, you know, revenue, you want to make. Hey, George, don't worry. In 16 years, you're going to sell another movie.
01:06:34
Speaker
You're going to be able to finance another movie based on just pre-selling the merchandise rights. Um, yeah, but, uh, yeah, that's.
01:06:45
Speaker
That's how poorly that went. Yeah, that's us. Absolutely. Cram a jam in Cinderella. Ugly stepsister shoving the feet of the of these movies into these this delicate glass slipper of the little box, little little box with the with the round hole has been utterly demolished by these square pegs of movies that were.
01:07:12
Speaker
What what I think the pegs are just shaped like matrix code and we're trying to like hammer them in there Like 40 shapes right there non Euclidean. Oh God absolute nonsense
01:07:28
Speaker
But I think, again, this it sounds negative, I think what we're saying, but I think we want to make it clear that like we love this aspect of these movies. Yes, it's part of what again, just for repeating its sake, part of what I truly love and respect about The Matrix is they were fundamental to me when I was literally 17 years old in 2003 and trying to understand myself as a
01:07:57
Speaker
deeply closeted trans person for the first time and something about these movies stuck in my craw and I really just spent the next 18 years
01:08:11
Speaker
before my actual transition, trying to figure out what it was. And I realized that they were telling me about, like I said, breaking the cycle. One of those cycles is story structures. Hey, idiot, now you're gonna get really obsessed with story structures and think about it in terms of how it applies to Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, and when you start questioning something, any system, it's hard not to keep questioning
01:08:38
Speaker
Right. I, I, but like just expanding it wider to the trans thing, sometimes the binary can be good. I mean, I'm a she, her, uh, uh, trans woman, but I have a shitload of non-binary friends. So it.
01:08:55
Speaker
They're useful tools for storytelling, but they're not necessary. Yeah, I also think that once you've, I don't know if I necessarily believe that there is such a thing as a, quote, binary trans person, I think once you've passed... I mean, that's fair. I do refuse to vocal train, so that's on me. Once you've, and once you've transitioned and sort of trespassed the binary, like, cis society, no matter how hard the certain trans people may try,
01:09:23
Speaker
like to to sort of forsake their their less gender conforming trans siblings in favor of appealing to cis people, they're never going to fully like see you as one of them. So like, yeah, I'm not saying like don't. I know. I know how we can end this episode on a high note and keep within our themes. Do you want to real fast rapid fire apply trans journeys to the hero's journey?
01:09:53
Speaker
Oh, shit. Shit. Yeah. There we go. All right. But I guess the point I was really trying to make is that just to just a real quick, wrap that one up. Sure. Is that like.
01:10:08
Speaker
Shit. What was I trying to do? Oh yeah. Like you've already, you've already, you know, you've, you've, you've broken the rules by transitioning, even if you are transitioning to what, you know, closely resembles the other end of the quote unquote binary. Like I, in my, in my view, you're still basically off the map. Like you're, you're still traversing like new waters. Um, and.
01:10:33
Speaker
Yeah, again, it's like once you once you start questioning one thing, everything else kind of kind of falls apart. Exactly. Yeah, so.
01:10:43
Speaker
Useful tools, more of a guideline, really. Maybe more of a guideline. So, ordinary world. It's the 90s. There are only guys and girls. Nothing else exists to me. I am a child and Power Rangers is a lot of fun. There are only guys and girls and Alan.
01:11:10
Speaker
And well, now see, there's a thing, the mail upbringing. I didn't know about Alan. Wasn't the whole joke of Alan that he was discontinued in like 1968? Yeah, I guess so. Doll, original, introduced in 1964. I can't fall down this rabbit hole right now. Okay. The call to adventure. I guess for me, that would be egg slash IRL on Reddit, right?
01:11:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's whatever cracks the egg, right? Yeah, right, exactly. The egg cracking refusal of the call. I notably, again, did not have one of these.
01:11:48
Speaker
unless you count the first 35 years of my life. Let's see, meeting with the mentor made an appointment with Planned Parenthood. I could also call that when any other trans people you talk to. Yes, my immediate reaction to realizing was texting Bex. So yeah, there you go.
01:12:11
Speaker
yeah i would say i have a screenshot system really i would say yeah crossing the first threshold would that be going on to an actual website do you think and just reading more about the experience or would that be scheduling the appointment
01:12:27
Speaker
Don't think it has to be anything medical per se I think it's just whatever the first like change that you make to yourself whether that's You know wearing new clothes changing your name or pronouns, you know, I think that's fair. I like that World and I know I'm being very broad you're being a little more Oh, no, I'm being a lot more specific and like literal with this and I gotta shake myself out of it No, it makes sense why you would apply it to your own. I'm also just thinking about how to broaden it
01:12:54
Speaker
Yeah. I keep applying my own thing. My, my experience was so fast. So like, it was like, no, I'm 35. This has to happen now. Um, tests, allies, and enemies. Again, our favorite. I think that tracks. Yeah. Right there. Tell allies, a lot of new friends, enemies.
01:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's Scott Pilgrim versus the world. Yeah, yeah. Approach to the innermost cave. For me, honestly, again, getting a little literal. It was definitely the first time that I tried to use a woman's bathroom in public. Yeah, that is an innermost cave. What would it be more generalized though?
01:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. But everybody's got the right. Yeah, it's after test allies and enemies, I think it gets a little hard to define, you know, like like lives in terms of a story circle. But I think because I think I feel like the ordeal would be like the dreaded coming out to family, which feels like an ongoing process, unfortunately.
01:14:11
Speaker
But I think that's almost, that's just the point that we're making is that the idealized, you know, the American dream or whatnot, the idealized heteronormative, cisnormative life can be charted on this sort of thing, like going to school, getting this certain kind of job, meeting the wife, having the kids, having the house. You can chart all that out and then like up until your death essentially. And then you have, when you transition like halfway through that story circle,
01:14:38
Speaker
It's like you just, it's on a whiteboard and you just erase the other half cause it's not charted. Right. Your future hasn't been written yet. No one's. I.
01:14:52
Speaker
I cannot explain how influential Doc Brown was to my young childhood. That kid next to him, playing at his crotch. That poor kid, immortalized for fu- That was the take you used? That was the take? That was the take? I think it was him, I think the story is that it was him signaling that he had to use the bathroom. Or maybe they just made that up and he was just being weird.
01:15:19
Speaker
Kids are weird dog. I don't know weird, but they they've surely had other takes fucking a all right the reward Self actualization does that as a reward or is that I know yeah? actual happiness the road back Obviously very literal. I mean yeah the road back though. What's
01:15:44
Speaker
I mean, I think that's returning to places, it's not unlike the first Matrix movie itself when he goes back into the Matrix, but now he's Neo, he's not Tom Anderson. Right.
01:15:55
Speaker
go back to where you lived before or whatever and you are this other person that you wanted to be. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Uh, the resurrection feels a little on the nose. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I guess, you know, you could literalize that with like changing your birth certificate or something. That's kind of a literal rebirth. Yeah. I can see that.
01:16:16
Speaker
Um, and the return with the elixir again, I want to be literal with it and just, just like, here's my elixir kids.
01:16:32
Speaker
Another state has outlawed the use of elixir. Gee, I know, I know. We're going through our own reloaded right now, so. We're going through our own, what plot is that? The fight against the monster?
01:16:48
Speaker
Yeah, gosh, I hope it's a comedy. Yeah. But yeah, again, that's that's an excellent point you made. Even the hero's journey is so easily applied to a cisgendered heteronormative concept. Again, because that Westernized again, to use that word, you know, like loosely, but
01:17:13
Speaker
ideal of someone's success of what someone should aspire to do. Is Anglicanized like a better maybe it's like Abrahamic. It's Americanized. Certainly Americanized. This feels tailor made for like Michael Fucking Bay. I guess we can just leave it at that then, even though I think Joseph Campbell was not American, but he was European.
01:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, probably. But like, well, we could just I mean, it's white, right? It's it's it's a white ideal. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I think we're getting a little into semantics, but it's yeah. And then it's almost as though you're making it on an etch a sketch. You're drawing all this out, which to draw a circle on an etch a sketch, first of all, good on you. But
01:18:01
Speaker
But then, you know, when you are nonconforming in whatever way socially, it's like you shake the Etch A Sketch and the whole thing kind of disappears. You don't have a roadmap. You don't have a path preordained for you. And I think that's what the Wachowskis did with the Matrix sequels is that they
01:18:16
Speaker
They didn't let, for better or worse, again, for better or worse, stick with these movies. They did not let any screenwriting professor tell them how they should or should not write these movies. Yeah. One of these days I will have to go through all of the audio commentary tracks on the Blu-rays because they do have philosophers commentating on the movies.
01:18:42
Speaker
and also critics commentating on the movies. Here we see Neo entering the Matrix. It's the same. Ah, this is the same. Like Cornel West is like literally one of the people commentating on the movie. I just want, I just want Werner Herzog's take. Oh God. And here he has a sad gray beige of Zion highlighting the futility of Zilife.
01:19:08
Speaker
This is where they talk about the tasty wheat and how the machines know what it tastes like.
01:19:19
Speaker
Have you seen the video where he talks about how he likes to watch trash reality TV and absolutely not, but I will be looking it up. There's a video of him talking about how he, so Werner Herzog understands wrestling and that's the end. He loves pro wrestling. He loves, he understands it. He understands that it's theater and he loves it, but he also talks about how he, he watches a here comes honey boo boo watch that show. And if you find it, you should definitely play the clip.
01:19:47
Speaker
Let's say once in a while it isn't on the air anymore. Here comes honey boo boo. Oh Christ. Oh God, that's amazing. So with that, I think we're about done here. What would you say? I would say so. I'm just going to make a quick note about Werner Herzog.
01:20:13
Speaker
God almighty, who's your favorite Star Wars character? Ask me that. In 2017, I'm gonna say Luke Skywalker. Who's your favorite Star Wars character in 2020? Werner Herzog! I thought it was Rose. Well, Rose I realized a little later. Oh, okay. We'll get into it on our Star Wars series. Of course we will. It'll be one 24 hour long episode.
01:20:41
Speaker
It still won't be enough time. We're the Werner brothers and the Werner sister. They all talk like Werner Herzog. We live in Zavata Tower. In Zavata Tower. Every day we torment a psychiatrist. The right of the mice, they want to take over the world. And now it's time for freakazoid. Freakazoid.
01:21:09
Speaker
OK, OK, OK. On that note, do you have anything you want to plug here? Do I have anything I want to plug? Yeah. What do I want to plug? I guess I don't think we have anybody to thank, really, because like you do the art. I do the edit. Yeah, this is just us. Thanks to Christopher Booker for living up to his name and writing a book about it. Yeah.
01:21:34
Speaker
You did good, book. 736 pages of this nonsense. Great job. If you're a booker, you certainly are. I think we should start calling authors bookers because they book.
01:21:50
Speaker
Yes, sorry I interrupted you like I don't think I have I don't think I have much too much to plug other than this very podcast check out my other podcasts that I did with Charlie Marlow and Shelby Sessler Mystery Shack look back Hell yeah hell of a show on pipedreampodcast.com, baby
01:22:07
Speaker
Find me at drawn without ref on whatever social media platform you can find me on. And yeah, I do art. I do animation. I am breaking into theater now. And I, I'll remember to actually promote these episodes on social media, which you can find at a major square pod on whatever social media is Instagram and.
01:22:34
Speaker
Yeah, whichever one still exists at this point. And I have been at Hope Lichtner on Instagram, Tumblr, AO3. I've just discovered the wonderful world of 13th Doctor slash Yasmin Khan fan fix. So that's what I'm up to these days. Find me.
01:23:00
Speaker
I love the challenge. Yeah, pretty much. I'm the where's Waldo of podcasters, but you don't necessarily want to find me. And that's about it. Yeah. Good job, team. Another one well done and another awkward exit for me to edit around.
01:23:24
Speaker
Yeah. All right. I don't know what we're what are we going to do next time? What do you think? God, that's actually a great question. What are we going to do next time? I mean, there's no no better time, like on the very podcast to figure it out. Shit, you're asking me the hard questions now. Yeah. Yeah. We have on the list here we have robot uprising slash as a mob. Benevolent relationships.
01:23:48
Speaker
We could get into, you know, animatrix recap. We could do a commentary. We could do, you know, choice. We could do, we could get into try to get a guest on for something. Yeah, you know what? Let's.
01:24:04
Speaker
Let's see if we can rustle up a guest and see what they want to talk about as far as the matrix. Yeah, I know we have we have a few guests in line for specific topics, but then I know we have some people that we just want to have on for whatever we decide. Yes. So I guess, you know, tune in next time for when we'll have another person here with us other than Smith. Yeah. So yes, our first non-Smith guest. Yeah, that's important. Yeah.
01:24:35
Speaker
They might get taken over by Smith over the course of the episode. We can't say for sure. We can't stop him from doing that. He does whatever he likes. He's so handsome.
Podcast Closure and Homework
01:24:47
Speaker
Yes.
01:24:48
Speaker
All right, so yeah, let's play it by ear. No homework assigned for next time. Uh, just work on your drills, kids. You're getting sloppy out there on the field. The end of the, the end of the podcast is the scene in every movie where the teacher never is able to keep track of time. And then the bell rings. And as all the students are leaving, he yells out the homework.
01:25:08
Speaker
And remember to have the chapters one to two read for tomorrow. Right. There'll be a test as they're all filing out and the bells ringing. Like, what do you mean you didn't need to bring that up earlier? Teachers that did not write a syllabus is our vibe. Yes. But that's what the end of every podcast is.
01:25:28
Speaker
I can forgive Indiana Jones for not writing a syllabus. He's kind of doing other stuff most of the time. I gotta know what his fucking office to field ratio is. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, on that note, here's a convenient edit point to say goodbye. And remember,
01:25:53
Speaker
You can make your own story for yourself in your life. Don't listen to Joseph Campbell. Maybe listen to Carl Jung and probably listen to Christopher Booker. And what about love? Oh, it's the genesis of everything. Goodbye.