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Neoseph Campbell's Excellent Adventure
49 Plays10 months ago
Hope and Ella walk through the famous 12-Step Program known as The Hero's Journey.
The graph we reference can be found here....
https://venngage.com/blog/heros-journey/
@MatrixQueerPod on IG/Twitter
Ella Cesari is
https://twitter.com/drawnwithoutref
https://instagram.com/drawnwithoutref
https://ellacesari.weebly.com
Hope Lichtner is
@HopeLichtner on IG/Tumblr/AO3. good luck!
The Matrix music, clips and dialogue are all copyright Warner Brothers and we own NONE of it.
contact us at [email protected]
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Transcript
Revelation and Identity
00:00:16
Speaker
I'd like to share a revelation with our family. Let me tell you why you're here. I'm gonna let you in on a little sip.
00:00:31
Speaker
You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. Like you feel it. Being the one is just like being in love. All I'm offering is the truth. Nothing. No one can tell you you're in love. Just know it. Do it, do it. All's normal. Hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.
00:00:59
Speaker
My name is Trinity and you better take your hands off of me. Welcome. Where did we leave off? You were talking about how yesterday... Oh yeah, yesterday I got home and...
00:01:17
Speaker
Turns out my grandmother gave me COVID, which is deeply ironic considering my actions trying to keep her from getting it for the past three years. Is this your first time doing this dance? Almost three fucking years.
00:01:33
Speaker
And I've been a good, good COVID girl. And, uh, no. I think I should give you something, a lollipop or something. Yeah, they gave me something. It's COVID. Congratulations. Merry Christmas. Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker. I'm just, I'm just, I'm so cranky about it, but it also happened to be.
Reflecting on 'The Matrix Resurrections'
00:01:55
Speaker
It also happened to be the two year anniversary of the matrix resurrections, a movie that we have not talked in depth about this, this podcast so far. The movie that was the first movie I saw in theaters, um, posts, well, you know, after pandemic started.
00:02:10
Speaker
I have an insane story about my first movie in the theater post start of pandemic, but that's a different story because last night I just decided, okay, fuck it. I'm angry. I'm going to get absolutely trashed and watch resurrections. And I did. You probably would have done that even if.
00:02:31
Speaker
Literally was my plan anyway, so I'm really glad that my hobby is movies because, like, ah darn, now I have to, instead of going to spend Christmas with my family, ah darn, I have to watch through this giant stack of 4K steel books that I've stockpiled for myself. Yeah, you know, some vices aren't really vices.
00:02:54
Speaker
Like I did have plans with Bex and their family, but that's fucked now. So I guess I'll take the consolation prize of I don't have to see my aunts. So. But I did cry repeatedly at resurrections again. And that's fairly par for the course.
00:03:17
Speaker
for me. It just gets me every fucking time. It's amazing. I can't wait to talk about it.
The Hero's Journey in 'The Matrix'
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to be a really good time. But what are we here today to talk about? Today we are here to talk about the hero's journey in general and as it pertains to the Matrix.
00:03:41
Speaker
Well, pray tell hope for the uninitiated. What be this hero's journey? What be the hero's journey? What is your quest?
00:03:58
Speaker
Well, my quest is either 17 or 12 easy steps to break down almost every single, quote unquote, hero's journey or the mono myth. I'm gonna start reading that. I don't know that.
00:04:13
Speaker
Monomyth, we're polymyth around these parts. Monomyth, doo doo doo doo doo. I'm going to read off Wikipedia for this. Always a reliable source for information.
00:04:30
Speaker
In narratology and comparative mythology, the hero's journey, or monomyth, is the common template of stories that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, is victorious in a decisive crisis, and comes home changed or transformed. Now right there, that paragraph, that's a pretty good breakdown of the hero's journey, just in that little tiny paragraph.
00:04:54
Speaker
It's interesting how trans the hero's journey is, even when you sum it up that briefly of like, you know, comes home like changed in some way, right? Transformed, let's say. Totally cheating with the fact that transformed is literally right there in the goddamned paragraph. But yes. Boy, what day is it today, sir? Why it's chance day of visibility, sir.
00:05:22
Speaker
That's mad to you, boy. Ah, fuck. Oh, god damn. I also would have saved Scrooge.
00:05:36
Speaker
I guess it was either estradiol or three spirits, huh? That's how you do it. But of course, I am, of course, more or less obsessed with the hero's journey because I am obsessed with story structure in no small part thanks to my decades-long fascination and obsession with The Matrix, which we established in several episodes how the first movie is a perfect retelling
00:06:03
Speaker
or use of the hero's journey in filmmaking. And then the second two movies just throw it all out the window and say, fuck your, fuck your story structure. We're going to break that fourth wall and, and, and, and, uh, remake our stories in our own myth and, uh, nobody really liked those. So.
00:06:26
Speaker
Exciting. It's this weird kind of ouroboros chicken and egg situation where it's like is is the hero's journey monomyth thing something that people like like what is it Joseph Campbell right kind of yes I will get into I will get into the different breakdowns of the hero's journey in a bit
00:06:47
Speaker
But it primarily comes from Joseph Campbell's hero with a thousand faces published in 1949. All right. You go. It's like, is it a pattern that people like that recognized in stories? Yes. Or is it something and then but then that in turn is like influencing screenwriters now where it's like.
00:07:04
Speaker
Oh I see what you're saying yes it's at this point like since the publication of his book in 49 it's definitely become like a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing like there's been many versions there's been a bunch of books out just like the hero's journey as far as screenwriting goes
00:07:24
Speaker
Um, I mean, shit, when I was a dungeon master, my whole deal was, okay, I need to make these people feel like heroes. I'm just going to take the easy path and use the hero's journey. And I say that it was the easy path when I'm juggling
00:07:41
Speaker
six player characters and about 40 million NPCs at once. A TTRPG campaign is such a different beast than a movie because a TTRPG is like a living, breathing thing that could change radically at any moment. Exactly. Yeah. And it all depends on like the dice or what my idiot player is going to say next or what idiot thing is going to come out of my mouth.
00:08:04
Speaker
And can I work H.R. Giger into this podcast, into this dungeon game again? I sure hope so. Hi, can you clear out my dungeons? But but my point to that matter is I dream about these trans women. And I thought what if there was like an alien and got you pregnant in your throat?
00:08:31
Speaker
And it stuck its phallus down your throat and impenitinated an embryo sac. And I'm like, I'm listening, sir. Yeah, yeah. What? That's not three of my kinks. We do a special episode on Alien.
00:08:48
Speaker
I am so, look, I'm totally down to do special episodes on any random goddamn movie as it pertains to the trans experience or not. I don't give a shit with you any day of the week. It just feels like it's in that similar family of like anti-capitalist trans messaging if you look for it.
00:09:09
Speaker
You know what, I find myself presented with a perfect opportunity. I've been wanting to do a deep dive into Ridley Scott's filmography for a little while, because I understand the dude is very anti-capitalist and Alien is right up there with it. So Blade Runner, Thelma
Ridley Scott and Trans Messages
00:09:25
Speaker
and Louise, whole bunch of horse shit. So I find myself with a perfect opportunity to delve deep into that. I think Alien should have ended with Ripley and the Xenomorph driving off a cliff together.
00:09:38
Speaker
What a movie that would have been, huh? First they'd have to find a cliff in space. Yeah, that's true. In space, there's no gravity to fall you off the cliff. No one would hear them scream anyway.
00:09:52
Speaker
Well, clearly, but circling back to the hero's journey. So I know George Lucas tends to change the narrative of how he develops all the time, but it seems fairly consistent that at some point he picked up hero with a thousand faces.
00:10:12
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. So something I do want to lay down ahead of time before we start really getting in depth with this, because just by invoking the name of George Lucas, you've like unlocked another one of my 11 billion special interests as it pertains to storytelling and namely how I want to beat George Lucas with a shovel.
00:10:36
Speaker
But I want to establish just the sign of like a like a hardy like like most people. Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, at this point, I mostly want to know George hasn't done anything recently that's pissed me off. So these days, I mostly want to egg Dave Filoni's house. But that's a different thing. I just want to say like.
00:10:59
Speaker
The hero's journey, it's very tropey. Like it's more to do with story structure rather than like individual actions that can happen in works of media. Like the reference on TV tropes.org. All the best place on the internet to waste time. All the time. So this is really just like a great big
00:11:23
Speaker
zoom out of all of these tropes as it pertains to storytelling. It's not necessarily good or bad. Many of the movies that follow the hero's journey, I quite love. The Matrix being one of them. Star Wars being another one of them. They're not.
00:11:40
Speaker
It's when you rely on these things as a crutch with your writing and stuff like that. That's when it starts to really bother me like so much of when you when you take it as gospel or an objective like yeah, exactly good stories are that I think it's more like if these are all if you take each kind of aspect of the journey and trope and whatnot and
00:12:03
Speaker
You take all these as if they are building blocks or physical pieces, then what the hero's journey monomyth is essentially saying like, most houses are built like this. Right. Exactly. You don't have to build your house like this. I mean, all you gotta do really. Have this.
00:12:20
Speaker
All you really have to do is look at the filmography of Hayao Miyazaki. And like, my neighbor Totoro ruins me every single time I watch it. But that does not follow like a hero's journey. As far as I can tell, anyway, there's no grand villain. There's no final boss. It's a gentle, gentle movie. Yeah, it's a very, I think another important thing about it, it's good that you bring that up,
00:12:49
Speaker
It's an aggressively Western concept, right? Ow! I mean, for the most part, yes. I'm gonna show my ass a little bit. I really don't have that much experience with quote-unquote non-Western media.
00:13:07
Speaker
animators. I do hesitate to use the phrase Western because I feel like it's kind of a dog whistle. Right. And that's also a Western invention. Speaking of Ouroboros. But it's very like it's it's got this like kind of rugged individualism. There's this this is the hero and this is very exactly as it really doesn't have anything to do with communities or anything like that. No, which very much does, especially the sequels.
00:13:35
Speaker
Oh, especially in the sequels. And again, that's why I love The Matrix, like above all things. Like I mentioned in our first episode covering The Matrix, the first movie, it's perfect. Again, it's one of those perfect movies. No complaints. 10 out of 10, no notes.
00:13:51
Speaker
but it's just another hero's journey. Right, exactly. It's just another hero's journey. Part of why I like The Empire Strikes Back is that it completely throws the heroes off in different directions, and you have no idea what's gonna happen next, and it turns partially into a chase movie, this, that, and the other thing. The main reason I'm obsessed with- I could argue that The Empire Strikes Back, if you zoom out, is just the middle part of the circle, if you take the three movies as one, but even still.
00:14:20
Speaker
I mean, exactly. Yes. Like, I've got my own issues with Return of the Jedi, which we can get into way later. But again, part of the reason why I love The Matrix and especially the sequels, despite all of their flaws, which we have addressed, they are questioning. Right, exactly. They are questioning the
00:14:41
Speaker
The concept of the story structure in English language, uh, uh, big budget franchise movies in general. Yeah. And how I put it works on a metal level because it's all about questioning.
00:14:58
Speaker
You know, the story itself is about questioning the prophecy that was laid out for Neo in the first film. Right. The whole concept of the matrix is that is a system of control. And that system of control can be a computer program literally imprisoning your mind. It can be the gender binary. It can be capitalism. Or it can be a circle that is telling you all stories are this.
00:15:22
Speaker
Right, exactly. It can be Dan Harmon drawing a circle on a whiteboard and saying all stories are this. I think it's my take on the hero's journey circle and tropes in general, but mainly the hero's journey circle because you know, I'm not.
00:15:38
Speaker
Not to call anybody out here. It's more because I did in college. I was in a screenwriting class. OK. And it was, you know, again, I won't get specific, but it was like the hero's journey, I think, was used and it tends to be used as the template rather than.
00:16:02
Speaker
something to fall back on if you're stuck. I think that's what it should be. I think it should be if you don't feel like the story's working you can refer to it and say like okay well the kind of natural ebb and flow of most stories which
00:16:17
Speaker
would push me in this direction rather than, oh, well, where's your where's your this part? Where's your that part? Right. Exactly. Exactly. If the story is working and it happens to not be that, let it exist. Don't don't put it exactly. But if it's not working, then the circle can be a great reason. Yeah, exactly. It is a tool in the toolbox. You can use it. You don't have to.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think a good example as far as filmmaking goes is my love hate relationship
Critique of Hero's Journey
00:16:51
Speaker
with James Cameron. How familiar are you with the the films of James Cameron?
00:17:00
Speaker
Just to name a few, it's aliens, right? Terminator one, Terminator two, true lies, Titanic and then the two avatars. Yeah. And like aliens that I've seen. Yeah. So I mean, aliens is up. It's I mean, you'd have to zoom out to both alien and aliens, but you could argue that Ripley is going on a hero's journey.
00:17:23
Speaker
especially because she's so fucking kickass and transformed by the end of the second movie. You could also say the same thing. Don't worry about what happens after. Hey, look, we're finally getting aliens released on 4K in a few months, and you'd better believe I'm throwing a fucking party for that motherfucker. I'll show over that. Yeah, I am so fucking... Well, you got to come over back anyway just to watch Resurrections.
00:17:48
Speaker
Right. Because I'm honestly very tempted to just watch it again tonight because that's the way my day has been going. Which is either really good or really not good. Right. Exactly. There's a bit of both. I got a lot of good reading done.
00:18:07
Speaker
I had a really good shoulder workout, but, um, but then you get to like a Titanic. Obviously that's really not a hero's journey. That's its own whole thing. But then you look at avatar and it is again, another one of those like weird, perfect hero's journey sort of. Tales. And my main problem with avatar is that it is so frustratingly generic beyond its special effects. It really doesn't have anything.
00:18:35
Speaker
new to give you besides, hey, that thing that Gollum was doing in 2002, we put even more money into it and painted everybody blue. And yeah, and it's bringing nothing new to the table.
00:18:51
Speaker
which really frustrates me on a fundamental level because I think James Cameron specifically made another word perfect hero's journey because he knew that it's the best way to get like people to identify with a lead character, get on their side right away, and then make a rip-roaring, thrilling sci-fi adventure. It feels very standing on the backs of giants to me.
00:19:19
Speaker
You bring up an interesting point about Titanic because I think the hero's journey monomyth thing also
00:19:24
Speaker
doesn't afford much room for tragedy in story. Yes. I mean, there's like canary tales where people's lives get worse and that is the point. And I realize that using very vague terms of like, oh, they're transformed. It doesn't have to be positive, but it is like, well, they go from a quote unquote normal world into a quote unquote special world and then they return to the normal world transformed. And it's like, right. I mean, you could say that about every Henry Selick movie.
00:19:53
Speaker
That's true. But it's like you can make these terms as vague as possible. But they're still not going to be as universal as you want them to be. Exactly. And we can certainly get into it. But in my readings for just more into terms of the hero's journey, I came upon a sub listing on Wikipedia for the heroines journey, which we can get into as well.
00:20:23
Speaker
Um, but that is a, that is unfortunately a fairly separate thing with its own steps. Because especially in, in our modern culture, so much of it is geared around generic looking white dudes named Chris. Uh, so, but yeah. Go on a heroin journey if you want. I mean, you can, I hear it's snowing in the bathroom. Um, that's cocaine.
00:20:52
Speaker
I'm a stoner. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. I don't know my, my hard drugs. So, okay. This is actually something that I know nothing about. So tell me about the heroines journey. Okay. So, uh, again from Wikipedia, uh, 1990 Maureen Murdoch, a Jungian psychotherapist and student of Joseph Campbell named drop published a self-help book called the heroines journey, a woman's quest for wholeness in response to K. So it's like a SQL spinoff response.
00:21:22
Speaker
to the hero's journey, which is fascinating. And Carl Jung, right? Carl Jung. Yeah, I'm not really up on my psychoanalysts outside of what I know from Bill and Ted. Well, but he had the. The twelve like archetypes of.
00:21:47
Speaker
of sort of characters. Oh, fuck. Nice. OK, I'm going to open that tie in to OK. Well, we can we can we're I feel like archetypes are going to be another thing that we do later as well. So we can I will cheerfully certainly get into those.
Heroine's Journey
00:22:04
Speaker
But as far as the general like that, like Young and Campbell, both kind of getting these commonalities out of out of mythology and things like that.
00:22:16
Speaker
Yeah. But as far as the heroine's journey, it is entirely focused around the concept of being a woman. Let's see. Like the hero's journey, these stages are able to be removed and switched around as necessary. It begins with the breaking way of feminine ideals and turning towards patriarchal values. Then comes the experience of spiritual death and turning inward to reclaim the power and spirit of the sacred feminine.
00:22:45
Speaker
The ending stages consist of union of both the masculine and feminine values. So you could also say that's kind of a trans experience. Would have had like really normal opinions on trans women. I'm totally sure. Uh, again, I'm reading really, really would have loved, uh, Paula trade. He's getting that power that only the women in their society have Christ alive, Christ alive. Um,
00:23:11
Speaker
I fucking can't with Dune right now. I'm stuck in the middle of fucking... I fucking... Dune and I are not speaking right now. We are not. I got a third of them. Not even. I got 15% into Chapter House Dune and like it turned into a fucking Mel Brooks sketch.
00:23:29
Speaker
And I'm just so fucking I can't deal with it right now. So I went back to reading my lesbians kissing fan fiction. God damn it. I want like a like a Dune producers like a musical. I mean. I'm sure we can hash something out. But
00:23:52
Speaker
We don't necessarily need to get into the in-depth of the heroine's journey right now, because it really doesn't have too, too much to do with classical storytelling structure, as far as I can tell. I guess, though, you could make an argument like just reading through these, like Mulan follows the heroine's journey.
00:24:16
Speaker
Um, sure. It's also, again, it's free. It's so vague where it's like, Oh, you can, it's, it's like, these things remind me of horoscopes in a way where it's like, that's so vague. You can apply to anything. Like, yeah, exactly. It is, unfortunately for our purposes, a much more focused version of the hero's journey. I'm not trying to be like.
00:24:41
Speaker
Uh, uh, uh, break it down into a binary here, but like, that is just a more specific version of this larger umbrella storytelling structure. As far as it pertains to the matrix. Um, and it's, it's like, I'm reading this article and I'm like, you know, I know this is a loaded question, but what is a woman? Jesus.
00:25:11
Speaker
But yeah, I'm not sure if you want me to answer that sincerely, but it's just. What are frogs? We're all technically fish. It's true become crabs. Crabs and trains, that's the universal arc of all evolution, crabs and trains. So an ability.
00:25:37
Speaker
So as far as like practicality of going through the hero's journey, I've got two main sources here. The one is obviously Wikipedia that can break it down into two subsections, being Joseph Campbell's classical 17-step structure and Christopher Vogler's, a screenwriter's, breakdown that he made and published in 2007, which is your more traditional classical 12-step program.
00:26:06
Speaker
The first step is admitting that you have a story. Yeah. Hi. Hi, everybody. My name is Hope and I have a story to tell. And the second source is going to be a an infographic that I'm sure we've all seen at some point and been floating around on the Internet since it looks like 2016.
00:26:28
Speaker
And I'll be posting a link to it off of WordPress in the show notes. But it is, I'm sure you've seen this floating around. I sent you a link to it, Ella. It is the hero's journey in six popular movies, a big rainbow colored flowing info graphic that goes through the 12 steps as put forth by Vogler.
00:26:53
Speaker
Like a big gay snake. Uh, and the movies that it's covered on there is the list because you're a snake or no, because I'm gay. Yes. A little bit of both. Uh, a little bit of both.
00:27:07
Speaker
Now it's cheating a little and says six popular movies. And the first movie it lists is The Lord of the Rings, which is three fucking movies, but nevermind. And also this Harry Potter, which I've never heard of. Well, I wasn't gonna mention that horse shit. I've never heard of that. But the five that we are going to be talking about are The Lord of the Rings, The Lion King, Spider-Man, The Matrix, and Star Wars.
00:27:36
Speaker
I've heard of most of those things. Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good. You get a little bit of everything in there. You get your fantasy. You get your animated. You get your superheroes. You get Hamlet. You get Hamlet. You get your Star War. You know, it's it. To go back to my what is a woman that it does kind of bring up the idea of like
00:28:04
Speaker
Can you, it's like the old rhetorical device of like, can you define chair in a way that includes everything that is a chair and excludes everything that is not a chair? Which you cannot really. And so to try to make a one size fits all story thing without like a billion disclaimers
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of wild to me. I'm like, OK, well, it's it's something you sit on with four legs and then it brings in a horse. Behold a chair. Featherless biped that presents a Godzilla. Behold a man. Yeah.
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, so it's like, behold, a story is like. Yeah. And and and these I've got Umbridge with some of the examples that it lists here in the flow chart. And Star Wars is its own special thing that just makes me angry and delighted at the same time.
00:29:12
Speaker
But I mean, we're going to be going through the we should get into it so we can guess we can build it up so we can break it down. I mean, I think that's what exactly itself does as a trilogy. So.
00:29:23
Speaker
So so why don't we hear you? Let's pick. OK, you you pick one to read and I'll pick one to read and so on. Well, let's are you looking at the Campbell list or the Vogler list? Because I would like to just read down real quick the Campbellian list, then we can break it down properly with the 12 step easier to read program, because there's some words in this list that I just don't want to let go of. Sure. Well, why don't you send me what you're looking at?
00:29:50
Speaker
OK, it's literally the Wikipedia entry for the hero's journey. There is a there is a dropdown menu, at least in the mobile version, that says more information. It's under summary.
00:30:03
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. I thought we were getting into the, the rainbow snake thing. I guess we'll do that. Oh, we can get into that in a, in a, in a hot minute, because that follows the easier to understand and more universally applicable 12 steps Campbell's Campbell 17 stages, right?
Stages of the Hero's Journey
00:30:18
Speaker
Campbell 17 stages, which are further broken down into three separate acts, the departure, the initiation and the return. Right.
00:30:27
Speaker
Uh, all right. And again, Joseph Campbell written in 1949, the hero of a thousand faces. I have tried to read this fucking book so many times and the dude just writes like a fucking technical novel. I literally read blueprints every goddamn day. And this dude, I just cannot sit through. It's so fucking boring, which is why I'm referencing Wikipedia. Yeah. Uh, do we want to go, uh, uh, every other?
00:30:55
Speaker
Sure. Why don't you, why don't you start us off? All right. Step one, the call to adventure. Oh, we're just just that. Okay. Got it. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. I'm just reading off the list. Step two, refusal of the call. Step three, supernatural aid. Step four, the crossing of the first threshold. Step five, the belly of the whale.
00:31:21
Speaker
Uh, okay. Now we're in the initiation section as step to stage two. Yes. Step six being the road of trials. Step seven, the meeting with the goddess. Oh, hubba hubba. Speaking of step seven woman as the temptress. Oh boy. Wait, you've got step seven. I've got that as step eight. Oh, okay. Uh, nope, you're right.
00:31:48
Speaker
Nope. Okay. It's great. I'm the hallucination status. Okay. Atonement with the father. Now we've got apotheosis. Yes. Or an epiphany of sorts. Great, great $10 SAT word. Oh yeah. Oh, I'd say I call that a $50 word even. The ultimate boon, step 11. It's a boon and it's ultimate.
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah, we've got the final phase, the return, the refusal of the return. This bitch just refuses everything. Hey, go on an adventure. No. Hey, come back home from the adventure. No, we've all not wanted to get into the shower and then not wanted to get out of the shower. We've all had. You're right. That's pretty much it. And it would be a lot easier to get in or out of the shower if we had step 13, the magic flight. Oh, yeah.
00:32:47
Speaker
And then we could have the rescue from without. Which follows up with the crossing of the return threshold. Okay, yeah, I can see how this is getting excessive. Master of the two worlds.
00:33:02
Speaker
And then finally, step 17, freedom to live. It's a lot of ending the phases. Yeah. I really appreciate the specificity of his breakdown, but again, it kind of does defeat the purpose. It's very ballsy to just be like, this is everything. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:20
Speaker
It's more like the blank check boys call it like shoe leather, where you're showing the main character, walking into the hotel, checking into his room, getting into the room, putting the suitcase down. It's like in older movies, I think before they really had like editing and cutting down, it was like, well, we can't cut from them
00:33:46
Speaker
From an exterior shot of the building to the characters already in the building the audience will get so confused Right the trainees coming at us. Oh my god
00:33:59
Speaker
I do appreciate his initial breakdown of 17 Steps in terms of just like, these are tropes that are commonly associated with these points of the thing. It's the difference between preferring a 3-act structure and a 5-act structure. It's just different ways of breaking down the same basic thing.
00:34:20
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I'd also be remiss to, uh, not point this out, but, um, so, okay. Uh-huh. Oh, geez. Uh-oh. Um.
00:34:41
Speaker
Campbell, uh, it's been noted that Campbell called Judaism, uh, the Yahweh cult. And then he spoke of Judaism in almost exclusively negative terms. God damn it, Joe! Come on! Alright, um, uh, uh, um, what's that? It's not, it's, it's, uh, um, it's not endorsement. We're not endorsing this dude's views. No, I mean, we're already kind of picking apart his ideas, let alone...
00:35:09
Speaker
him as a person. I mean, we're basically abandoning his initial writings almost immediately because I prefer the folklore breakdown. That's not even saying like, Oh, Christ, does Christopher Vogler has it? Does Christopher Vogler have any horrifying statements? If he does, I am not aware of any of his personality things beyond his presentation of the hero's journey. So I'm going to stick to that. And where would I find that?
00:35:36
Speaker
The oh, shit, the the hero's journey chart. Oh, the chart that you sent me. Yes, I sent you the link to the chart. I can send it to you again if you need it. The gay snake. The gay snake. This is pretty much what we're going to be referencing to as far as like just like reading off a list for the rest of this episode, because it breaks it down so wonderfully.
00:36:02
Speaker
All credit to, uh, fuck, what is this? Uh, Vonage WordPress. Venage, then gate, then gauge. I got there eventually.
00:36:14
Speaker
We did it. We did it. But we start out with step one in the ordinary world. And as far as the matrix goes, that is listed as Thomas Anderson lives a double life as a regular citizen and is Neo a hacker. See, and even already it's getting into more complicated territory because it is a seemingly ordinary world, but
00:36:40
Speaker
It's not the real world. It's arguably the more fantastical of the two worlds from the character's perspective. From the audience's perspective, it's an ordinary world. But once we have the context that The Matrix is all a fakie fake, that is the weirder world.
00:37:00
Speaker
I believe they're referencing the use of the word ordinary is in that this is the only life Thomas Anderson status quo. Yes. This is the status quo. That's a great way of putting it. The status quo. I think ordinary is almost too subjective of a word. I think status quo is maybe better to call it.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I really like that. It's, uh, it's, it's Luke Skywalker on Tatooine looking out at the twin sunsets. I'll never get out of this podunk town. And it's, uh, poor Peter Parker was pitiful. And Simba being heir to the throne in the pride lands.
00:37:39
Speaker
And his text here also says, oh, Frodo lives comfortably in the Shire and visits Bilbo. Already we're having problems. He doesn't visit Bilbo. He lives with that motherfucker. God damn it. Let me get the call to adventure.
00:37:54
Speaker
The call to adventure, step two. Okay, so the fact that the order of the, I can appreciate the rainbow of it all, but the fact that the order, the list order of these stories is constantly shifting. Yeah, yeah, you gotta go back and forth. The order of the wings was on the bottom and now it's on the top. Yeah, it's, thank God it's color coded and that the matrix is green. And I'm color blind. Oh no!
00:38:25
Speaker
Fair enough. Okay. Uh, I'm so sorry that, that. Fuck. I was all excited. Okay. Fair enough. Um, yeah, we get Jesus. Neo receives cryptic messages referencing the matrix. I mean, it is pretty, pretty as literal as a call to adventure as you get. I mean, he receives the, what, the, the, the Motorola phone, right?
00:38:43
Speaker
Oh no, I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry. Son of a bitch.
00:38:49
Speaker
I mean, that's part of my problem with this breakdown, as far as the matrix goes, is that they apply some different settings to like other steps, like the refusal of the call, a couple of later ones. The call to adventure, I think is literally him getting the phone call.
00:39:14
Speaker
on, you know, in that phoenix delivery. I'm kicking ahead here. The refusal of the call. That is not the refusal of the call. Right. The refusal of the call is Morpheus telling Neo to jump out the window and Neo saying, fuck no. Look, I'm not going to lie. If any, as charismatic as Morpheus is, if he told me to jump out a window, I, my fear of heights is so overwhelming. I would, I would. I mean, kid did it. Yeah.
00:39:46
Speaker
I wish he'd do it again in the real world. Son of a bitch. Kid, you're actually in a second matrix, a bigger matrix. You have to jump out the window again in this world. So many people were utterly convinced. So many people were utterly convinced that revolutions was going to be a matrix in a matrix. And my God, that would have been so fucking boring. Like that Rick and Morty episode.
00:40:13
Speaker
I don't think I've seen that episode but I mean they're riffing more on like Shyamalan twists than The Matrix but it's basically that Rick is
00:40:23
Speaker
Rick and Morty are trapped in a simulation until it's revealed that it was only Rick, and he was in a larger simulation within a simulation. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. That's rough. But yeah, it would have just been like an investor ball thing. Yeah, especially with the whole idea was that they were trying to break through these storytelling tropes. Speaking of the call to adventure, I really have to tell you, and for the sake of the pod, I mean,
00:40:53
Speaker
i was at uh this flea market recently and i picked up uh what what's in my wandering eyes should appear but both the matrix reloaded and the matrix revolutions on dvd oh hell yeah the only two that i'm missing because i picked up the first matrix uh you know second hand on dvd and then found uh the animatrix i got when uh some some acquaintances were moving out of their place and giving a bunch of shit out uh and then
00:41:22
Speaker
And then you graciously gave me the the steelbook of the of of resurrections because you had like the box, right? Yeah, yeah, I it's it's it sounds a bit cheap, but yes, I had a spare copy of The Resurrections on 4K and Blu-ray Steelbook because I bought the great big giant obscenely huge box set, which is it's going to make a quick
00:41:47
Speaker
It's going to join us real fast on the podcast. There it is. Oh, it's so satisfying. The reason I bring it up is because I crack open the case for Matrix Reloaded and just what pops right out is the, an insert ad for the Samsung phone that they use in the movie.
00:42:08
Speaker
Oh, the Samsung phone. The Samsung fucking phone is my favorite piece of film merchandise merchandise ever. I've got to save just I've got to search like permanently going on eBay for this for this fucker. And there's another insert ad for revolutions because it wasn't out yet. Right.
00:42:30
Speaker
And it's such a I feel like I cracked open a time capsule. I feel so special. I do love cracking open old movies like that. Old movies insert the CD-ROM, you know, the DVD in your computer to access the CD-ROM bonus game or something.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah, no like legit the soundtrack the CD soundtrack for the Matrix revolutions You could put in your computer and it had the trailer for revolutions in in delightful. I player like 240 resolution and also this kind of baller arcade game. That was like a top-down I
00:43:09
Speaker
a bullet hell ship game where you were piloting either the Nebuchadnezzar or the Logos and you had to get back to Zion and it was the coolest thing. That's amazing. I wonder if we can ever access that. We should definitely talk about it.
Call to Adventure Examples
00:43:24
Speaker
I'm sure I can at the very least find my CD of the soundtrack and we can do like a shared screen thing and you can see we get brutally murdered in a video game over and over again.
00:43:35
Speaker
Anyhow, that's the real call to adventure with seeing that ad in the DDG. But yeah, the other ones for the call to adventure, I mean, they definitely got it right with R2D2 gives Luca message from Princess Leia asking Obi-Wan Kenobi to help her. Oh, nailed it. He is her only hope. Also where I stole my name from, hell yeah. What's this they brought us?
00:44:05
Speaker
Hope. It's every time every time they say every time Leah says hope, I lean over to Bex and say, oh, they're talking about me. It's a it's a great bit. I'm sure they don't hate it. Then we've got why don't you read the rest here?
00:44:22
Speaker
Shit, I'm trying to take a sneaky drink of water so I can talk here. I'll get this one. Oh, no. Okay. A genetically engineered spider bites Peter and he wakes up with wow. This is a very weirdly phrase sentence. A genetically engineered spider bites Peter and wakes up with powers, which makes it sound like the spider wakes up with power. Right. Right. Right. Well, isn't that a variant? I think there's like man spider where he was bitten by a man and he wakes up with all the powers of a man.
00:44:50
Speaker
I think canonically, Peter Porker was a spider that got bitten by a radioactive pig. Yeah, right. Let's see. Scar kills Mufasa and tells Simba to leave the Pride Lands. Kind of a rude call to adventure. That's a not. Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that one either necessarily. I would argue. I would argue the call to adventure is just the fact that he is going to be king.
00:45:20
Speaker
And then the refusal of the call is his abandonment of the- Yeah, the refusal of the call is like the entire goddamn Hakuna Matata sequence, isn't it? Yeah, I would say so. Huh.
00:45:32
Speaker
We can get into that. Yeah. But that one, I mean, again, it's like it's based on a story that was written before this was a thing. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know if Shakespeare fits as neatly into the into the structure. We can talk to Max about Beowulf as far as it pertains to the hero's journey. I guess just because it's old doesn't mean it doesn't fit.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah. Also, the Lion King, the Lion King might not even be the best example of the hero's journey in an animated Disney film from the 90s. I mean, there's no way I mentioned Mulan earlier that kind of nails it. I think Aladdin fits way better. I think Aladdin works Beauty and the Beast fits way better. Yeah. OK, I can see that. I can see that. Yeah. But then the other one is that Gandalf tells Frodo that he must destroy the one ring.
00:46:28
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much. Which, yeah, that's pretty solid, which butts right up into the refusal of the call. Yeah.
00:46:36
Speaker
This is this is actually one of the most commonly like skipped steps in stories, I think. Yeah, skipped or just very brief, which it makes sense for movies because you got to you don't really want to watch the hero not do stuff for too long. Yeah, exactly. I mean, make it a stronger story if they aren't just immediately jumping at whenever they want to do it. It enhances the stakes if it's something that they are trepidatious about.
00:47:08
Speaker
Yeah, like, I mean, Star Wars is a pretty classic example, because again, Star Wars is a very, very, very pared down version of the hero's journey, which is why it's so commonly referred to alongside Campbellian, whatever. But like, Luke's refusal of the call lasts about 120 seconds. Like, maximum. He's like, I can't, I can't go with you to Alderaan. I've got a
00:47:37
Speaker
What's that smell? Oh yeah. Oh my God. All right. I guess I'll go with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, Nio's is a little more clear cut and like drawn out because I don't, I don't buy, I don't buy this one. This one says that the refusal is neo talks to Trinity, but isn't sure if it's a dream.
00:47:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's absolute nonsense. The refusal of a call is him literally dropping the call saying fuck this and going back inside. And willingly, you know, getting himself arrested. Yeah, exactly. I mean, these other ones are pretty clear cut. It's Peter Parker using his powers to win wrestling matches rather than use them responsibly.
00:48:25
Speaker
Which is a whole thing that's going to come in the next step. Here using his powers to fight, um, to fight, uh... Bonesaw McGraw or something? Yeah, but he's, um, he's doing like, uh... crap. He's doing, uh... Randy's the Macho Man. He fights... Oh, okay, okay, okay. Macho Man Randy Savage. I know little to nothing about modern wrestling, let alone 90s wrestling, so...
00:48:54
Speaker
Fun story. I was dressed as the 10th doctor several years ago at a Renaissance fair, but I still had a decent amount of like bleach blonde longer hair. And somebody came up to me and asked me if I was dressed as Ric Flair and I had to Google that. And then I realized, oh shit, I could have made. Yeah. But yeah, he fights, uh, he fights bone saw portrayed by macho man, Randy Savage. Ah, fair enough. Okay.
00:49:22
Speaker
and Peter, and he says homophobic stuff to him. He does. He does. That's unfortunate. Nice outfit. Did your husband make it for you? Actually, he did, Spider-Man. Maybe you should think before you assume.
00:49:37
Speaker
Oh, Christ. I mean, yeah, yeah, Simba scared and alone retreats into the desert. Frodo is reluctant to leave the life he knows. I mean, he deliberately like thinks he has an out at Rivendell, so I get it. I haven't had breakfast yet. It's I'm here to kick ass and eat second breakfast, and I'm all out of second breakfast.
00:50:04
Speaker
Um, some of these steps can get a little fucked around with because obviously we've already referenced Obi-Wan, but yeah. Yeah. There's an asterisk next to one of these next ones, the meeting with the mentor. It says that in star Wars, uh, this step happens before the refusal of the call, which because technically, yeah, he meets up with Obi-Wan and they talk about the lightsaber and all that before.
00:50:27
Speaker
Luke receives, you know, refuses the call. Right. Obi-Wan affords him a little bit more of a glimpse into the world of beyond his knowledge, really. But then they say the same thing that with its Uncle Ben talking to Peter, but he talks to Peter before he goes to the wrestling ring. Yes.
00:50:52
Speaker
which then, of course, Uncle Ben obviously has to die to motivate Peter to do anything. Oh, who are you, Miguel O'Hara? You had to? It's a canon event. I said, like, what was it? Shit, the last time, like, I still haven't seen No Way Home. Because as I say to Bex, if I have to watch another fucking Uncle Ben story, I'm going to drive to the actor's house and kill them myself. You know what it is, though?
00:51:23
Speaker
the aggressive pushing of the monomyth is very Miguel Opara. It is very like, no, it has to happen in this way or it doesn't count. Exactly, exactly. Something that I truly appreciate about Across the Spider-Verse is that it takes everything that is subtext in
00:51:44
Speaker
The Matrix Reloaded and makes it taxed via comic book canonical events. Something that something that 20 years later, everybody is so fucking well versed in. Yeah, I mean, yeah, thanks to the popularity of these fucking marvels. It's reloaded is about like, well, this person is fated to die and the protagonist is like, no, no, I don't think so. Yeah, exactly. Because I can do something about it.
00:52:12
Speaker
Uh, uh, it's, it's about choice. And I mean, it's kind of perfect. The meeting with the mentor listing for the matrix is, uh, uh, Morpheus tells Neo to take the red pill shows truth or the blue pill return to old life. This is Morpheus giving him, I mean,
00:52:29
Speaker
plot technical bullshit aside, as far as like, in universe reasons, he has to take the red pill, but it's literally giving Neo an out, another chance to straight up refuse the call. And then in the Lion King, Timon and Pumba sit down with Simba and they say, now Simba, if you eat the red pill bug, you can see how deep the lion hole goes.
00:52:55
Speaker
Or you could take the blue pill bug and wake up back at Pride Rock like none of this ever happened. Fart joke. We can only show you the door, Simba. You have to be the one who goes through it. Holy Christ. Hakuna Matata, Neo. It's my philosophy, my motto. What's a motto? Nothing, Neo. What's a motto with you?
00:53:25
Speaker
You are, you continue to be alarmingly good at this, and I am put to shame. I love it, I love it, holy shit. I'm really upset that I have Dune at my beck and call, and not the very popular film, The Lion King. Yeah, and then we have Gandalf introducing Frodo to the Fellowship of the Ring, and Smith is there. Smith is there, Mr. Baggins.
00:53:55
Speaker
Surprised to see me. Oh, God, I love it. And we crossed the first threshold, which is arguably the only threshold that matters.
Crossing the First Threshold
00:54:06
Speaker
I mean, there's no other threshold mentioned in this list. Yeah, I mean, that's a throwback to the Campbellian structure of everything where they were 18 thresholds. Yeah, there was a threshold in the threshold. Yeah, exactly.
00:54:23
Speaker
which is Neo choosing the red pill and waking up from the Matrix as a little baby in the pot. Right. His little smooth boy, fresh-faced, no eyebrows, baby face.
00:54:38
Speaker
Luke accompanying Obi-Wan to Alderaan to deliver the plans for the Death Star to Leia's father. Nothing's going to go wrong there. Well, I would argue the real crossing of the threshold, the not in Kansas anymore moment, as George Lucas, I believe, put it, is entering the cantina, because that's really where
00:54:54
Speaker
We see things not of this world, literally not of our world, but not of Tatooine either. Wow, that's actually a great point. I really like that. Yeah. It really, that's the only sequence in the entire movie that has like aliens besides fucking Chewbacca, who is present for obviously the rest of the movie. Other than the fact that they're technically all aliens, but yes, non-human. I mean, yes.
00:55:19
Speaker
It also includes the Wolfman and my good friend Satan. Satan, yeah. I'm so sad that, like, I think they cut- I think Satan is not in some versions. I think the special edition is too. Fuck that. Fuck that. Or I don't. Maybe it's not Satan. Maybe something else got removed that was, like, just a Halloween costume. It honestly wouldn't surprise me, but, like,
00:55:43
Speaker
I have I refuse to watch any version besides the de-specialized edition the past five years. Yeah, that's that's fair. So I can no longer claim any familiarity with the non de-specialized editions. I'm afraid. So Peter Parker stops Uncle Ben's killer and realizes he must use his powers to stop crime. Very noble, very responsible. Oh, Christ.
00:56:14
Speaker
Let's see. Simba embraces the Hakuna Matata lives and lives with Timon and Pumbaa. All right. I'm going to call bullshit on their entire breakdown of the plot of The Lion King and my throat, which is abandoned in me. Great. Yeah. Because holy shit.
00:56:42
Speaker
Again, I think the entire Hakuna Mikada sequence is the refusal of the call. And The Lion King is one of the few successful movies that draws out the refusal of the call. Simba also has several mentors, one being his own father and another being Rafiki, right? Yeah, I mean, he does meet back up with Rafiki later on in the film. And you could argue that they just flipped
00:57:12
Speaker
Uh, uh, meeting with the mentor and, uh, the next step beyond crossing the first threshold, which is tests, allies, and entities, because they are his allies for the rest of the film, but yeah. And this one is pretty much a catchall for like stuff happens. Yeah. Um, act two stuff happens.
00:57:33
Speaker
Right, right. It's, you know, going in the Millennium Falcon with Han and Chewie. And it's just Peter doing Spider-Man stuff. It's just kind of like the various tasks and challenges and right. Exactly. They all go through. We have crossed the first threshold. Now we can actually enter into this fantastical world. And John sings a song about lion sex.
00:57:57
Speaker
It's just the the best fuck me bedroom eyes ever in an animated film. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. But the last first threshold is the fellowship set off to the journey to Mount Doom. That goes well. Yeah, I mean, because the test is is the Balrog.
00:58:20
Speaker
Oh, well, I mean, the the Lord of the Rings is such a huge ass fucking story that you could say that like. I mean, each one of these steps is going to last a couple hundred pages, so. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, tests, allies and enemies, as you said.
00:58:42
Speaker
Act two shit happens. Now that we're in this bigger world, we have to meet new people who will explain this new world to us. So it's not just Morpheus and Trinity. It's like six other people who are all gonna die, but that's irrelevant. But yeah, that's also Neo training, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then we get the approach to the innermost cave.
00:59:12
Speaker
which in our case is talking to the oracle. Yes. And so, oh, God, you could break that down into like the bigger Cambellian, bigger, the more myopic Cambellian ideas of like the meeting with the goddess and all of that.
00:59:34
Speaker
Yeah, but that's, it becomes so metaphorical that it's, I think, a cave or just some kind of inner like sanctum or some kind of, what it really is, is a setup for the next phase, which I think collectively these two phases make up the low point of the story.
00:59:54
Speaker
Uh, I think, uh, yes and no. Uh, we can get to the next step in a moment, but I mean, as far as approach to the innermost cave, as far as the matrix is concerned, this is the first time Neo has returned to the matrix knowing what it is. Right. But I think it's a setup for like, you have to do this really hard thing. And then the next step is you have failed doing this really hard.
01:00:21
Speaker
I mean, that's true. So the next step is, if you would like to, read us into that. Yes. I mean, we skipped over the others, but it's basically the Death Star destroys Alderaan. Now our heroes are trapped in the Death Star. The Green Goblin asks Spider-Man to join him, but Peter refuses. Nala asks Simba to return and face Scar and Frodo, sees the ring's corruptive power, and goes forward alone with Sam. Aww.
01:00:50
Speaker
Gay yay, and we have the ordeal with the ordeal is neo's group being ambushed by agents in the matrix because of fucking cypher and Morphe is getting captured fucking cypher God damn you cypher
01:01:06
Speaker
The group rescuing Princess Leia, but Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan in the process. Spoilers. Norman figures out that Peter is Spider-Man at Thanksgiving and kidnaps Mary Jane. Simba must choose to either save his kingdom or to keep living his new life. And Gollum leads Frodo away from Sam to... What?
01:01:29
Speaker
She loves later. She loves later. Wow. Wow. That's spelling error there. I don't know. For all I know, maybe it is a layer. Well, she love is a separate layer on Photoshop. Yeah, it turns out you've been inking the wrong layer. Oh, no. You've been drawing the wrong. Oh, Christ. A lot of times I have a sore throat layer. But Sam said.
01:01:57
Speaker
Holy fucking shit, how do I just mail you a box of comedy points? How are you saying that? Fucking incredible. Fucking incredible. But yes, again, I'm gonna bitch about the Lion King's step in that, but whatever at this point, I guess. And then that typically closes our second act with this like, oh shit. Yes.
01:02:20
Speaker
Everything's fucked, what are we gonna do? And we have to summon all our courage for the next part, the reward. Which in Matrix's case. Is guns. Is guns. A lot of guns. I'm so glad you went to the same place I did with that, fuck yeah. Neo blames himself for Morpheus's capture and reenters the Matrix to save him. Which is guns, lots of guns.
01:02:52
Speaker
Spider-Man goes back to save Mary Jane and learns the Green Goblin's identity. Luke decides to join the rebels to destroy the Death Star. Kick ass. Mufasa's ghost tells Sipma he must return to the Pride Lands. Sure. And Frodo, corrupted by the Ring's power, no longer wants to destroy it. Yeah. Shitty reward, but there you go.
01:03:18
Speaker
No, I mean, I believe it. I think I buy the Lion King one in this case. I think it's a point in the story where, you know, you're licking your wounds, but then you have to go back into whatever thing you just kind of narrowly escaped from, whether it's the Death Star or the Matrix or what have you.
01:03:38
Speaker
Because, you know, you got to you got to get back up once you when you get knocked down. Thanks, tub thumping. Yeah. Yes. Drink, take a vodka drink. He sings the songs that remind him of the good times, sing a song that remind him of the better times. Yeah, I was angrily working out to White Rabbit this morning, if that counts for anything. Yeah.
01:04:06
Speaker
Then we get the road back.
Neo's Reward Phase
01:04:08
Speaker
The road back? Before Neo can leave the Matrix again, Agent Smith kills him, oh no! Oh shit! That's a shitty road back, fuck! Oh no! Well I suppose that also encompasses the sequence of shooting all those cops.
01:04:28
Speaker
Would that be the reward? Because not necessarily because he gets that is pretty rewarding. It is pretty rewarding. But it's more of the fact that he is coming into his powers like the not just the lobby, but also the rooftop. He not only. Starts moving like in bullet time intentionally, but then he also gets to dodge bullets. But it is also the road back, literally the road back to where he started being the matrix.
01:05:00
Speaker
I mean, that's true. Yeah, I guess it's kind of all this. It's this one's a very it melts together. Yeah, it kind of blends the ordeal, which we can we can certainly call guns, lots of guns and ordeal. But it's not at least part of the ordeal. I would argue not because they are. They win very handily.
01:05:27
Speaker
That makes sense. OK. You know what? I see what you're saying. Traveling. They're in the they're stuck in the wall in the wall space. OK, that makes a lot of sense for sabotages. They're their lowest point. Yeah. Yes. Oh, OK. I see what you're saying. All right. We're going back. We're refueling. We're regrouping. And then we're going to come back stronger. In other words, they have intentionality versus the return of the Jedi. Yeah. Yeah. OK, I can see that.
01:05:56
Speaker
Um, whoop. Yes. And this the road back as at Norman's funeral, Harry, Peter's best friend, swears to avenge his father's death. And I heard Harry said he wants Spider-Man dead, but his buddy, Pete, he can trust Christ. Yeah, that definitely won't get dragged out for two more movies. God, I hated the first Spider-Man movie. I hated the first Spider-Man movie so fucking bad.
01:06:24
Speaker
It's honestly, my hot take is that I like Spider-Man 3 more than the first Spider-Man. Really? Fascinating. I don't think ever- I think it's more fun to watch. I think the first Spider-Man takes a long time to get to the Spider-Man stuff.
01:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I personally loved Spider-Man 2 because- No, that's the best one. Yeah, but mostly because it's got J. Jonah Jameson a lot and I love that guy. Simba returns to the Pride Lands and faces Scar. Luke refuses Han Solo's offer to leave, choosing to help overcome the Galactic Empire. I mean, fair.
01:07:04
Speaker
And then we get to... Gollum bites off Frodo's ring finger and jumps after it to his death. Jesus Christ! Oh, wait, so they're... Oh, they're doing all three movies in this. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. They've zoomed out to make it purely about Frodo, which I don't think that applies, the hero's journey applies to Frodo, because he kind of loses any agency because of the corruption of the ring.
01:07:32
Speaker
I think if the hero's journey applies to anybody in those movies, it's fucking Sam because he maintains his energy and his energy, his agency, and makes an active choice to go through all of these things the entire time. We have the resurrection, no, not the Matrix resurrections. Or alien resurrections. But in this case, a very literal resurrection where Trudy tells Neo that she loves him, Ergo, he must be the one because of what the Oracle said.
01:08:01
Speaker
Then Neo gets the Sleeping Beauty kiss and kills Agent Smith by going inside him and he explodes and whatnot. Always, always such a wonderful moment to be watching when you're like me, stoned out of your mind. I do like that all of these moments are very character-driven, like Luke remembering. Luke doesn't remember Obi-Wan's advice. Obi-Wan's fucking ghost talks to him while he's flying the X-Men.
01:08:29
Speaker
I feel like so much of this infographic is just arguing semantics. But yes, yes. Well, it's all semantics. It's English class. That's all it is. Excellent point. The curtains were fucking blue. But either way, Luke does make the active choice to put away the targeting computer and trust the force. Yes. Which I quite like. Mary Jane confesses her love for Peter, but he rejects her to keep her from danger.
01:08:59
Speaker
Makes sense. Makes sense. Active choice. Simba learns that Scar killed his father and he throws Scar off of Briderock. Classic Disney villain death. I'll kind of allow it. And then Sauron is defeated and Frodo and Sam reunite with the Fellowship.
01:09:19
Speaker
I. Yes, I mean, why not? Yeah, sure. Sure. Which is essentially just here is how our hero has been transformed. Neo makes a call in the matrix telling them. No, I don't think that's what's happening in that scene. I don't think he's talking to the machines in that scene. I think he's talking to either you, the viewer or someone that isn't freed yet, right?
01:09:45
Speaker
I think it can be seen as him literally addressing the machines because I mean you see a repeat of earlier in the movie when they're tracing his call and he stops the trace program. Yeah.
01:10:00
Speaker
So I mean, again, a little bit of semantics. I think technically the return with the elixir can also be mixed in with Neo literally resurrecting and now have kind of, I guess, kind of whatever in the metrics. He is theoretically addressing someone who hasn't been woken up yet, but he knows that the machines are spying on him anyway. So he's also addressing them. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
01:10:25
Speaker
Uh, but like, again, like to that point of these blending of the steps, I mean, these are all just, these are all just tools. You can blend them together. You can chuck them out a window. You can, you can remain steadfast to everyone and have them be completely individual and unique. Right. The, you know, with, uh, I like that it's a Luke wins a medal and takes his first step toward being a Jedi. Like, like the metal was so important.
01:10:55
Speaker
Yeah, the metal was the return with the elixir. I think it's the fact that he was able to. Chewy, Chewy thought the metal was pretty important, but that's neither here nor there. Why do we? Why do you pull out Rise of fucking Skywalker at least once an episode? Is it to fuck with me? What's going on? Jesus. Somehow ends words and embraces his role as Spider-Man. Zima ascends pride rock and reclaims the throne.
01:11:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of the embracing what you initially refused, whether it's being the king, being Spider-Man, being a Jedi, being a trans woman. Yeah, I've returned with the elixir and it's a convenient pill format. It's injectable. You can get it in patches.
01:11:41
Speaker
Yeah. Um, fucking amazing. Um, and now here's where I'm just going to just stop and be like, no, fuck that traumatized Frodo leaves middle earth to live in the gray havens with the elves.
01:11:53
Speaker
That is not the return with the elixir. Whoever made this diagram, thank you. Actually, I'm gonna push my glasses up on my face a little bit. I would argue, and I am gonna get real fucking nerdy here for a hot second. In the case of the Lord of the Rings, the return with the elixir is the entire, because it's a thousand page book in which, oh, hang on just a second.
01:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, Dan, I will do that in a moment or two. Yes. Thank you, Dan. I'm trying to record a podcast. Give me a bit. I'm going to open my editing notes and say to cut this out. Jesus, hour 11 matrix edit notes. Nope, that's my shopping list.
01:12:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're almost wrapped up anyway. Yeah, we're pretty pretty close. Unless you do you want to get into how the sequels break it down or should that be a separate episode? I would love to have a guest on for that episode to help us break it down. Preferably somebody who hates those movies.
01:13:18
Speaker
Who hates the sequels? Who hates the sequels, specifically, yes. I think that would make for a much more... We're at about an hour, so why don't we... Yeah, exactly. So we can wrap this up. But...
01:13:33
Speaker
Well, it seems that our podcast circle is coming back in with the elixir, right?
Frodo's Return with the Elixir
01:13:39
Speaker
Right, yes. But just real quick to my point, just to leave a dangling thread, convenient that my grandmother would interrupt me when I'm about to get real nerdy about the Lord of the Rings. Oh, about the Lord of the Rings, yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. My grandma loves the Lord of the Rings. She's kind of the reason I'm a nerd, so I might as well just pay her some lip service right there. Thanks, Dan.
01:13:59
Speaker
Um, but as far as I'm concerned, the return with the elixir is the entire extended drawn out sequence in the book of the scouring of the Shire, where the hobbits returning from this big adventure now have the abilities, the talent, and the, the, the knowledge to drive Saruman out of the Shire who has taken it over in their absence. Um,
01:14:23
Speaker
To me, that's the true return with the elixir, because they were able to utilize all of their learned skills and experiences to help save their homeland. They are literally returning and saving their home, very specifically. Albeit, it's over about 120 pages. Right. Yeah. But that's just me being nitpicky with this particular Venn diagram.
01:14:53
Speaker
you have every right to be yeah uh well we we are nerds talking in depth about the matrix uh for all intents and purposes a dead franchise there's a lot of layers here because we're over analyzing a system that over analyzes all of the mythology of all time uh right yeah and i think
01:15:18
Speaker
You know, the nuances. There might be some nuances to this stuff that we are not necessarily capturing when we're not professing to be a Cambodian scholars or anything. Absolutely not. I make college dropout. So we've got that going for us. Yes. And yeah, like.
01:15:38
Speaker
I don't know, like all good stories, I guess this one is wrapping up and we'll get into- It is. I guess it kind of has to be the net, but immediately following this episode, we'll get into how the sequels turn all this on its head.
01:15:56
Speaker
Yes, we can get into that right away. I mean, we do one of these a month. I'm really enjoying doing these with you. Me too, me too. This is the end of the calendar year and our first six months of doing this program. I'm excited to keep doing this with you. Happy six months. Happy six months. I'm excited to have guests on in the future. Yes. No, I think that works. I think turning the page into the new year and starting that off with a guest is very...
01:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, it also might turn out to be the first episode of twenty twenty four, depending on when it gets when it gets out. But I have nothing but time over the next few days. This will get edited and published before before the new year. So super frustrating. I'm actually going to dip out to target real quick, masked up, obviously, and pick up a Lego kit.
01:16:50
Speaker
Oh, wait, what are you gonna get? What are you gonna get? What are you gonna get? I was talking to Bex about this last night. I'm always torn between the pirate ship, because I did have a big Lego pirate ship as a kid, and I've been bemoaning the absence of Lego pirate ships for ages now, and they've got one back. But then they've also got this gorgeous $200 set of the fucking space shuttle.
01:17:14
Speaker
And it's just, I know, I know, I know. So I was saying to Bex, like, if you know me, you know that I saw the space shuttle on display at the Smithsonian a few months ago and I cried upon seeing it.
01:17:27
Speaker
But, uh, I was bemoaning like, which one do I get the pirate ship or the Lego? And, uh, Beck said, well, why don't you split the difference and get the millennium Falcon because it's a pirate. It's a pirate space shuttle. So I'm going to have to see what models they have. It is literally two days before Christmas. My chances of finding exactly what I want are low, but I think it's worth a shot. You got any, uh, you got any of that turbo man in stock?
01:17:52
Speaker
I need the Turbo Man ball. I need to get the Lego pirate ship. I need to have a meaningful, insightful battle with Sinbad. I need to make it up to my son Anakin Skywalker. It all comes together. God damn it. Put that cookie down.
01:18:15
Speaker
I saw that movie in theaters. Oh my god. I'm so old I just turned 38 and I'm just I'm I can no longer claim mid 30s. I'm officially late 30s So hilarious, but yes, I'm excited to talk more about The Matrix and every other thing it occurred to me the other day. We haven't really done a Trans-specific episode on The Matrix, but then again
01:18:39
Speaker
Like, we're trans, we're talking about the Matrix. It's just gonna happen anyway. There's not an episode that goes by where we don't bring it up. Yeah, exactly. But we do have those planned. We do have plans. We do very much so. I'm super excited to talk to any guest we have on as far as their- We're just kind of getting out of that initial phase of laying the groundwork of talking about the films themselves. Now we're getting into the meta.
01:19:06
Speaker
What what an astounding amount of groundwork we've had to do. But yes. And granted, there's still two other movies that we haven't covered yet, but they are. I think it makes it does make sense to sort them outside of the trilogy.
01:19:20
Speaker
Yes, again, I've said it before, but my main reason for suggesting that was to the Wachowskis, these three movies were one solid period of their life and resurrections came way later. Right, and then Animatrix is a bunch of side quests. Exactly, exactly. Oh shit, speaking of, you know what? I might just throw on Speed Racer tonight. Fuck it.
01:19:47
Speaker
Do it. And you at home, you at home, do that too. Yes. That's an order. If anything, just for the cool... Call the adventurers, watch Speed Racer. Right, and if the Ghostbusters taught me anything, it's that we have to answer the call. God damn it. More like a nonja. When's John Goodman bad? It rules.
01:20:15
Speaker
All right. Uh, is there anything else we want to mention real quick about the hero's journey? Uh, besides it, everything else we've talked about. Do you have a favorite of the 12 steps? Um,
01:20:34
Speaker
I do like the ordeal. I think it's one that, you know, unlike the beginning ones are kind of nebulous, but I think that is one that you really can pinpoint in most stories. It's like the low point. And it is like the moment where the hero is just so overwhelmed and, you know, daunted that
01:20:57
Speaker
that they have to rise up. And it's the most inspiring part, right? Because it's- That makes perfect sense. I really like that. I think the hero is defined by their struggle. If they are not beaten down, it is not satisfying to see them rise back up. Exactly, exactly. My personal favorite is just tests, allies, and enemies, because that's when you're meeting all the fun, new, wacky characters. Yeah, that's true. That's when Han Solo shows up.
01:21:24
Speaker
and you get that Harrison Ford smile. And it's like, I'm here for this. I'm here for this. Oh, and I got me thinking about that. So I'm going to have to get off this call and take a shower. Fair enough. I'll leave you to it. Otherwise, hey, it's me. Never tell me the odds. All right.
01:21:48
Speaker
They went from lines like never tell me the odds in Empire to return to the Jedi region says hey It's me. I mean to be fair it is him it is him it is I'm not gonna act like that's not a ball or line But it does kind of signify that they didn't really have shit for him to do that is true well I
01:22:13
Speaker
Anyway, nitpicking of other science fiction franchises aside, I've been Hope Lickner. She her. We're really bad at introducing ourselves. So you can put a name to the voice. Christ. Well, I've been Ella. She her.
01:22:34
Speaker
And, uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm so used to the dual sign off that I do with Bex over on duck takes. Uh, do you have anything to promote as I, as I choke on myself over here? Well, there's this podcast, there's my other podcast, Mystery Shack, look back all about gravity falls. I was just on, uh, some episodes of come on for who go pods, the home start runner podcast, find that at pipe dream podcast.com. Find me on Ella Cheserie.weebly.com. That's C E S A R I.
DuckTales 2017 Discussion
01:23:02
Speaker
And, uh,
01:23:05
Speaker
I've got Highland Cartoons. We're going through DuckTales 2017 with my good, good friend Bex. But we do the podcast together, Highland Cartoons, going through DuckTales 2017. It's a good time. The episode for this week will be late because of my COVID. I in fact have to record
01:23:26
Speaker
an apology after this that will go up before this episode drops. So there's some fun time travel there. I'll have fun. I will do so. My friend, I will see you later. Have a good weekend if I don't see otherwise. Yes. You as well. And something about
Love as a Genesis
01:23:46
Speaker
love.
01:23:46
Speaker
Yeah, love is the genesis of stuff. All the things. Yes, that too. Most stuff. Most stuff. All that stuff, it's because of love. And all that jazz. Okay. Bye. Goodbye.