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The Matrix And Me
102 Plays1 year ago
Hope and Ella, a couple of trans women who are also nerds, discuss their shared love of The Matrix film franchise and set out the mission statement for the podcast in general.
Ella Cesari is
https://twitter.com/drawnwithoutref
https://instagram.com/drawnwithoutref
https://ellacesari.weebly.com
Hope Lichtner is
@HopeLichtner on most non- terrible social media platforms. Find Me!
The Matrix music, clips and dialogue are all copyright Warner Brothers and we own NONE of it.
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
All right. So did we want to just start this like a normal podcast? I think that ship has sailed. Yeah. All right. Fair enough. I define normal podcast. I don't think I've ever been a part of one of those. Hey, mystery shack. Look back. Sounded I was about to say looked and sounded what you did the visuals for it, I guess. So it did look and sound very professional. Thank you. But I don't know. I would say normal. Well,
00:00:27
Speaker
Well, it was just north of normal. Oh God. Oh God. That's just going to be the dynamic of this show. This is going to be the, this is the show. This is the show. Hi, I'm Hope Lickner. She, her. Well, hi, I'm Ella Chesry. Also she, her. Hey, isn't that convenient? Isn't it? Hey, Hey, Hey Ella.
Why The Matrix? A Long-standing Desire to Discuss
00:00:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:53
Speaker
Did you want to talk about the Matrix? I always wanted to talk about the Matrix. Great. Let's talk about the Matrix. Okay. I'd like to share a revelation with our fans.
00:01:19
Speaker
Let me tell you why you're here. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. Being the one is just like being in love. All I'm offering is the truth. Nothing. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Do it, do it. All's above. Hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.
Naming the Podcast 'The Matrix Reformation'
00:01:57
Speaker
This is the Matrix Reformation!
00:02:02
Speaker
That's the name of the show after we spent a good hour on a thesaurus website. I mean, yeah, in that moment, but there were several name sessions. There were several brainstorming name sessions that was probably cumulatively maybe like 24 hours worth of discussing names. I will say this. I've been wanting to just do a deep dive podcast on The Matrix for several years now, like
00:02:26
Speaker
since well before the trailer for Resurrections dropped in like September or something of 2021. After you knew it was going to happen.
00:02:39
Speaker
After I had confirmed visual evidence that was actually happening, I think the teaser trailer that dropped in like mid-September 2021, where you had to click on the red at the point where you got a different trailer. God, that was so exciting. Where you knew what time it was in your computer.
00:02:59
Speaker
It's the problem is you can't record that because it's a different time all the time. So it's like well great Yeah, and I'm like this slut for hoarding Media, so I'm like, oh I need a recording of this I can't because then it would defeat the whole purpose Jonathan Groff. Can you sit down and record every minute of the day? Hey just Bonkers like I he probably did like seven to
00:03:27
Speaker
three like he i just i remember them sounding i mean this is obviously a topic for another podcast i suppose but i remember them sounding so smooth that it didn't feel like it was it didn't sound chopped up but maybe it was just you know well put together i don't know i've met some audio wizards i am not one of them that's true i am uh we do know many audio wizards
00:03:52
Speaker
We do.
Generational Perspectives on The Matrix
00:03:53
Speaker
We do. So this is a question I really wanted to start off with. We're here. We're the Matrix Reclamations. We are also queer. We got that covered. We're going to do a lot of queer talk on this podcast because that's what we're doing. It's a podcast about the Matrix and I don't know what you expected. Yeah.
00:04:15
Speaker
It's, we're going to get into it. That's also the part of the thesis of the podcast, I guess. Right. I mean, yeah. So I guess that's my first question because I have spent 20 odd years with these movies and you were born, I believe after the first movie came out. What month did the first one come out? Oh, March 31st, 1999. Yeah. I was born June, 1999. So yeah, no. Yeah. I'm only slightly younger than the franchise itself. Oh, that's.
00:04:45
Speaker
And that's what I'm really excited to talk about in a lot of these cases, especially on this first episode, because my experience of seeing The Matrix in general, I think was very different than yours. Oh, I'm sure. You said you spent 20 odd years with the franchise. I spent 20 odd years on this planet.
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. So we've got that exciting generational divide. Yeah, so true. Yeah, which I'm really excited to exploit. Honestly, a millennial and a millennial Gen Z cusp. I suppose, right?
00:05:20
Speaker
I've always understood the cutoff year to be like 1997, but it's fuzzy math at best, so. Yeah, and yeah, it was never, never exact. I'm just thrilled that millennial is no longer like a pejorative term, but that's, that's also. I guess it depends who you ask. I mean, I've got skin in the game, so yeah, come on. Uh, did you want to go first or did I want to go first? Like, do we want to do this like chronological?
The Queer Lens on The Matrix
00:05:47
Speaker
I'm not sure. I mean, I guess we could start with just our our goals for the podcast. I think would be a better starter because I mean, probably is sort of is derived from the fact that the Matrix is a film franchise that is directed by two trans women. But over time, culturally has been adopted by
00:06:13
Speaker
What's the word I'm looking for? Chuds. Right wing chuds. Hired goons. Hired goons? Hired goons? Uh oh. Goons. Hired goons.
00:06:30
Speaker
uh but they no and so reclamation is sort of the idea of like we they were not necessarily able to make it as unabashedly queer as they perhaps would have and this is the subject of of debate i suppose but we can agree that they were you know closeted when they first made it now they they are both uh out uh as trans and queer and
00:06:55
Speaker
As are we, and now we're bringing it back into that sort of spotlight. And as well as just talking about every other kind of aspect. I'm definitely excited for the way we're breaking down these episodes, which is like, rather than...
Previous Podcasting Experiences
00:07:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I suppose for context on who we are, the little Troy McClure bit, you might remember me from, uh, you might remember me, uh, from the Gravity Falls podcast, Mystery Shack Lookback. Uh, definitely check that out if you haven't. I've also been on a, uh, a fair litany of other, uh, podcasts on that same network, pipedreampodcast.com. We've got, uh, I've been on Pod Made You Special, Veggie Tales podcast. I've been on,
00:07:39
Speaker
come on for hookah pods the uh homestar runner podcast i've been on how did this not get made um every time somebody invokes veggie tales i have a mild out-of-body no yeah i mean that one's that's a great one yeah uh oh i got escape from vault disney i did a guest spot on and uh well why don't you give your uh your your podcast background and i'll get back to what i was saying
00:08:01
Speaker
Well, mine are not nearly as prestigious as yours. You may remember that I discovered your podcast, Mystery Shack. Look back the day after it ended. Yes. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that is a good context for us meeting in the first place. Yeah.
00:08:19
Speaker
And then I proceeded to shotgun the entire series in under about, I wanna say two weeks. That's the way we're always hoping people would consume it. I work in manufacturing. My day job is manufacturing. So I have a lot of podcast listening time. So the rest of my manufacturing plant was just subjected to your voices for multiple weeks as I like had to pause and like,
00:08:49
Speaker
Bend over laughing, crying. I still can't believe you got Alex Hirsch for the one episode. That's killing me. That's killing me. Yo, wait. For a moment, I legitimately... So I legitimately forget that all the time.
00:09:03
Speaker
that we got the creator of Gravity Falls, on the Gravity Falls podcast. Absolutely buck wild. And you like somehow backed him into doing a goddamn Webster's dictionary joke to introduce himself, which a thousand comedy points. Thank you, thank you. Yes, just infinite. And you've previously done. But my podcasts, besides me like blowing smoke up your ass, is I used to do a podcast called Frank Reviews with my dad.
00:09:49
Speaker
I did the art for that
00:09:56
Speaker
yeah so so mr. check look back I guess another bit of important context is that that would I guess for mr. check look back I guess another bit of important context for that is that normally that was a sort of chronological watch through of gravity falls with my good friend
00:10:13
Speaker
Charlie Marlowe, a fantastic voice actor and editor and maker of all things extraordinary. Hi, Charlie. Yes, check out, let's see, what else? What is new? She's done a web series called Well Abridged Me Princess, which is a abridged version of the 1980s Legend of Zelda cartoon that's quite fantastic. So just look up Well Abridged Me Princess, and it's on most platforms.
00:10:42
Speaker
and we so we did that that show together um and sometimes we would just kind of break away from the gravity falls and do random little bonus episodes about uh whatever we felt like um and one of those episodes was about uh the matrix resurrections because that came out during the run of the podcast and we saw it together in theaters it was actually the first movie i saw in theaters uh after the pandemic started
00:11:10
Speaker
um we uh talked about that in an episode so i guess in a way that was kind of a like soft pilot or backdoor pilot for this i guess i mean it got
00:11:22
Speaker
you know, the gears turning about like, wow, we talk about the matrix in podcast form. I'm sure we'll have Charlie on this podcast at some point. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty sure I just kind of cold texted you and was just like, I hear you like the matrix. Well, yeah, I think you cold DM'd like us on on Twitter and it was the best cold DM I've ever received. Because it led to this beautiful friendship and podcast.
00:11:47
Speaker
It's basically harassing you with nerd lore. And that's the best way to harass someone. Is it? Well, we probably don't want to set a precedent with that. No, I said... But don't you know everything every podcast host says should be taken literally to the limit? Oh, God. Oh, I've got a lot of stuff about people's kneecaps that I should probably censor.
00:12:13
Speaker
So but what's interesting about this podcast what I'm looking forward to Aside from obviously talking about the matrix is my good friend. Hope is that Mr. Shaq look back was very Timeline oriented like we were we were trying to recreate what the fandom of Gravity Falls was like when it was airing so we talked about things in chronological order of release and we're kind of issuing that here because we're really just talking about
00:12:39
Speaker
aspects of the franchise, not necessarily in a particular order. Yeah, I have so many goddamn thoughts about The Matrix that I kind of want to talk about all of it all the time without stopping. Right, and it's a way of not necessarily limiting ourselves. We get to kind of jump around the different aspects of this universe almost like you would in like a dissertation or an essay, I guess, where you would have like subsections of just
00:13:09
Speaker
topics like a certain character or a certain theme. I have been joking for years that I've basically gotten a degree in matrixology or whatever the hell I call it. Hey, lucky for us- The study of matrix?
Cultural Influence and Misinterpretations of The Matrix
00:13:24
Speaker
It's first grade. Yeah. While you were going on dates, I studied the code. Yeah.
00:13:31
Speaker
I mean, I wouldn't, I would bet that it's one of the film franchises that probably has the most like academic papers written about it. I would say that's probably a fair, fair guess. Oh, that's, that's something I thought could be offered in the past 30 years.
00:13:49
Speaker
That's a fair call, that's a fair call, because I'm pretty sure a quadrillion books, there's an entire wing of books in the Library of Congress dedicated to just Kubrick. So, meh. Well, but that's, I mean, a director versus a specific film of specific franchise. Yeah, it's what all, we might as well get into it right now, because this is always something that stuck with me, especially when I first saw the sequels in 2003.
00:14:20
Speaker
Everything in at least the original three movies, we'll get into resurrections later, but everything is deliberate in those movies. So you can kind of just get as deep in the paint as you possibly can go with The Matrix. Every piece of text that appears on screen, every motion people make, every word of dialogue spoken, it's all very tightly controlled. And the movie itself encourages this. Oh yeah.
00:14:49
Speaker
Oh my gosh, yeah. The more you look, the more you found. I think it's the resurrections quote. But yeah, so I've always wanted to be able to talk to somebody about that. Yeah, I know that was one of the first things that kind of bonded us together was like, you've not had the opportunity to like really nerd out about the Matrix in particular.
00:15:10
Speaker
Literally all of my friends like in 2003 as soon as they saw reloaded. We're like, no, we're done with the matrix. This sucks. We don't want to talk like like, okay. Fair. I get it. But come on. It's I just want to talk about Smith. That's all I have to do. And I'm glad that we found each other in this wild world because
00:15:36
Speaker
It's important to, you know, to be I've had those kinds of other like friendships forged over like, I mean, I can't even several friendships at this point forged over, yo, you know, Phantom of the Paradise, like, which is another thing that sprouted from Mr. Shaq look back, but that's a whole other story, but
00:15:57
Speaker
Yeah, like when you have a really, it's not even the Matrix is niche necessarily, but that when you're so into it that it like, that no one else really reciprocates that energy and then you find someone who does, that's like, you gotta hang on to that. Well, with the Matrix in particular, what's really funny about it is, yes, the Matrix is niche if you're talking about the sequels. If you're talking about the first one, that's true.
00:16:21
Speaker
That's fairly universally acknowledged to be a good movie. But then when you say something like, I mean, the David Sims example is, Serif is a login screen. People just, I've suddenly grown three heads, it looks like. They just give you that. I've seen exes of mine, their eyes just get that thousand yard stare suddenly when I say some sort of nonsensical piece of lore. Like you told them their dog died.
00:16:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's like I affronted their sensibilities by going this deep into a Keanu Reeves movie of all things. So I really want to talk about, focusing on today anyway, about how we first
00:17:06
Speaker
realized how deep we were for The Matrix. How deep the rabbit hole went. Exactly. Side note, that was a major part of our naming convention. We tried to avoid red bulls, white rabbits. This kind of imagery is like, oh no. I mean, again, it's playing into, I guess it's an ironic aspect of the title because we're trying
00:17:26
Speaker
We're reclaiming it, but we're also not trying to give it a name that makes it sound like we're going to sell like, like, you know, male enhancement pills or or I don't know. Yeah. Or like deny that is that a school tragedy happened or something. I don't know. Oh, God. Yeah. There's there's several interest groups that I don't think we'll ever be buying ad space on this program. So they don't interest me.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you're telling me. Mm hmm. Waka Waka. We will have to get into our Muppet casting for The Matrix. Oh, absolutely. Obviously, there's going to be some fun episodes. That could be its own like April Fool's episodes. Oh, my God. We've we've got infinite plans for this. Exactly. Yeah. And also another thing that sets this apart from from Mr. Jack Lookback and the like is that we're taking a very you know, Mr. Jack Lookback had a specific release schedule because we were trying to get it out for the Gravity Falls 10th anniversary and things like that.
00:18:19
Speaker
But this one is going to be a lot more casually paced. I mean, we're getting this one out on the last day of Pride. Happy Pride. Happy Pride, yay! Otherwise, I think...
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's a labor of love. I don't want this to be something we both stress about because we both live very busy lives. Yeah. I suppose it's hard to explain the Matrix franchise to people who don't already know what it is. The thing is, no one can tell you what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. But no, because I feel like we've been talking around it without really giving an explanation of like,
00:18:59
Speaker
This is what The Matrix is, succinctly, but I don't know how to say that, so... I'll just let you take it from here with your sort of backstory with The Matrix. In a... Yeah, okay, so I was there, Gandalf, three thousand years ago, in 1999.
First Encounters with The Matrix
00:19:17
Speaker
Dial the clocks back, kids.
00:19:18
Speaker
uh it's the last day of march the well that's a holiday isn't it the it is a holiday gosh golly gee was it at the time though it was not no which we're certainly going to get into that was not trans day of visibility yet it was not yet so trans people were still invisible yes means we could sneak into the movie theaters and watch the matrix i didn't get carded for so long it was great but uh
00:19:44
Speaker
I did not personally see The Matrix until well late in the game. It was released in theaters March 31st, 1999. 1999 for me was all about Star Wars Episode I, The Phantom Menace. That's the only movie I wanted to talk about, to think about. Were you of the crowd that you saw it and I know there was this whole sort of
00:20:10
Speaker
psychological thing where people convinced themselves that it was better than it was simply because they did not want to believe that it was not very good.
00:20:26
Speaker
People were like, I think I have to see that again just to make sure that it was good for context. I was 13 years old. I'm a December 1985 baby, so I was 13 when I first saw it. It actually got re-released in theaters later that year on my 14th birthday, which felt like the greatest present in the world.
00:20:44
Speaker
But, you know, I'm in seventh grade, I'm a little butterball, pudgy kid that wears Star Wars t-shirts literally all the time. And obviously we can get into this later. I still didn't know who I was properly for literally another 21 years. So I had a lot of nonsense to work through and my denial capabilities were
00:21:08
Speaker
I see what you're saying if I can convince myself that I don't have to think about my gender I can eat that that's the convincing myself that a Star Wars movie is actually good is a That's nothing
00:21:21
Speaker
It's very frustrating to say the least. Star Wars as a franchise has hurt me repeatedly. I have to treat Star Wars a bit like an abusive ex. I mean it is the worst boyfriend in the world to a lot of fans.
00:21:39
Speaker
Now, I'm saying this, I'm sitting here, I've got a Star Wars Rebel Alliance tattoo right over my heart. I've got a Ghostbusters tattoo on my shoulder. Like, the things I love have hurt me. Right, as a Skywalker, it's like, baby, I'm different now. Look, I know we messed up before, but this one's different, okay? Okay, I'm gonna set a ground rule. We don't talk about guys as a Skywalker. Fair enough. This is a hard line for me. Okay, that's fair.
00:22:04
Speaker
We can talk about the expanded universe. We can talk about fucking the Mandalorian. Just that thing is off-limits. Oh, yeah, that reminds me. I assume, given our respective sailor mouths, I assume we're not worried about swearing. I mean, the way I see it, one, I do a weed-centric podcast to begin with. Two, I've worked in IT and manufacturing for 10 years-ish.
00:22:31
Speaker
Now at this point, that cat's not going back. As well as the matrixes... They're rated R. They're also all rated R. So if you're a child listening to this, what the fuck? If you're a child listening to this, you are the coolest kid in your class. And I want you to go tell them that.
00:22:49
Speaker
We're taking the Mabimbam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool, cool. Only certain drugs are okay. Yes. It's okay to go into trade school instead of traditional high school and college. It's okay. Never talk to cops. Never talk to cops. ACAB 1312. Okay, we're getting so tangentially sidetracked, which I'm super excited to do. I would say those things are related to the Matrix.
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah, probably. So you're saying that it was a big year for you, but Matrix was not on your radar? Not on my radar at all, but it was one of my Star Wars friends at school, went over to his house one day, and he had this interesting new technology called a DVD player. Oh my god. Wait, hold on. Can we talk about the trailer? The original commercials for DVD were like, DVD will blow your brains out.
00:23:41
Speaker
DVD will take your wife and make her feel more than you've ever made her felt DVD it will blow your house up DVD you'll thank it for cucking you repeatedly exactly it's like all the commercial memories just show how like explosive a DVD era of I mean it was the late 90s that was when Michael Bay was like at his most powerful
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It was just everything was radical and it was just absolutely nonsense. I'm thrilled every day that passes, we're getting a little farther away from 1999. Yeah. But he had this interesting technology that would kill you in cold blood called a DVD player. Yeah. And he proceeded to show me The Matrix, but it wasn't
00:24:34
Speaker
the whole movie, he decided to use the DVD skipping to different chapters feature to only show me the cool action fight sequences.
Loving the Complexity of Matrix Reloaded
00:24:44
Speaker
So I only saw the opening Trinity sequence the bit later where Neo is fighting Morpheus, the Smith and Morpheus in the bathroom, if memory serves. Oh, well the flooding, yeah, like the flooding office, yeah.
00:25:03
Speaker
basically from the lobby shootout forward. So I had zero context or explanation for it. The Snyder Cut? Nah, it's the 13 year old bringing it over to their house cut and going, no, no, no, just the cool parts, just the cool parts. Yeah, it was like, it was the best 20 minutes I've ever had. It was like, I don't know what this is.
00:25:22
Speaker
I'm 14 so I can't afford to buy a DVD player yet so I guess I'll just live with this weird thing in the background. I can't remember the first time I actually watched it properly. I mean I know I saw the trailers originally I feel like were similarly kind of obscure where they were very kind of
00:25:41
Speaker
What is the Matrix was like a big tagline of like, we've got to find out what this is all about. They were very, they were holding it very close to the chest on what the film was actually about. And I think that probably worked well for them.
00:25:55
Speaker
I mean, you can just see the modern day trailer cut for The Matrix, where they do basically the entire architect sequence inside of about 20 seconds while Ramstein plays or something like that. But yeah, the marketing surrounding the movie was mysterious as hell. It bypassed me completely, because as I said before, I was in Jar Jar Binks Land. But no movie would market itself that way anymore, and it makes me sad.
00:26:20
Speaker
Unfortunately, no. You just get this mysterious stuff like I really respect that. Unless I restarted on maybe like a horror movie might market itself that way, but I don't think a science fiction would.
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, it was especially compared to the bombast in your face obviousness of Phantom Menace, where you knew every character's name, every tertiary character. You can remember all those characters' names. Look, I've forgotten more Star Wars information than I'll ever learn about The Matrix, which is depressing to think about. So I can't remember when I first saw the movie.
00:26:56
Speaker
the first movie, it's a pretty standard-like hero's journey. I thought, well, that kicked ass. It's a great, it's a perfect movie. It is a perfect movie. It is one of those absolutely perfect movies. I will not argue that point. But then the real switch for me was in early May 2003, I was getting ready to get out of my junior year of high school.
00:27:17
Speaker
and I went and saw after school one day, The Matrix Reloaded, which I loved immediately. That's interesting that it was reloaded that got it for you. I said something to them.
00:27:33
Speaker
Yeah, because I knew it was doing something that I wasn't understanding, but I loved it, and I couldn't quite articulate as to why I loved it. And you said you were a junior in high school? Literally junior in high school, yeah. Like, for reference, you've seen the jacket, my Halloween costume for 2003
00:27:55
Speaker
A week before, less than a week before revolutions came out, was Neo. I sprayed my blonde hair, black, and I wore the sunglasses, and I had this gorgeous wool coat, the style that he wears in Reloaded and Revolutions. And I had the soundtrack.
00:28:17
Speaker
grabbed it on DVD the day it was released, I could not explain why the hell I love it. No, that's a good point. I mean, the first movie you hold your hand in a way that Reloaded definitely does not. Well, it's also the end point to it, whereas Reloaded is, we'll talk about it when we do our Reloaded episode, but it's kind of awkward in its execution.
00:28:41
Speaker
But it's advancing it. It's mostly set up for the payoff that we'll drop six months later. There's no like...
00:28:50
Speaker
internal payoff, I'd say. And I spent the next. Well, I mean, the 20th anniversary of Reloaded was last month. So I spent the next 20 years trying to figure out why do I like this movie? Like, yeah, that wasn't that was my what is the matrix? That's interesting. That's the. What is the matrix? Yeah. What draws you to it?
00:29:13
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the joke is now I realize, oh, I had a lot of religious trauma growing up. I have a lot of general trauma growing up. It turns out I was a deeply closeted trans woman until I was 35.
00:29:31
Speaker
That one explained a hell of a lot. We figured that one out kids. But I'm also like, this will probably come up in future episodes, but I'm also a dungeon master. So I'm a little obsessed with like story structure. And obviously the first one is a perfect
00:29:58
Speaker
As I was saying, I'll put a sound drop or something there. As I was saying, I'm kind of obsessed with story structure. And the first Matrix is, like we said, perfect movie. I'm not going to argue that. But it's still just a basic hero's journey. It's a predetermined set of rules with all of this set up and payoff. And if you know anything about the hero structure,
00:30:27
Speaker
within the first like 20 minutes of The Matrix, Star Wars, Spider-Man, whatever friggin franchise you care to name, you're gonna get the same basic story beats over and over again. And what I really loved about Reloaded and then Revolutions six months later is that it challenged
00:30:46
Speaker
all of those concepts, especially with all of its religious references, it's challenging not only the story structure in general, but it's challenging specifically the religious story structure because like, you know, the Joseph Campbellian hero's journey, it's very Jesus as well. He slots right into those. Uh, so it's, you mean the Dan Harmon stories, kind of like Dan Harmon invented and patented.
00:31:12
Speaker
I don't even know what you're referencing and honestly at this point I know the thing about the matrix is you want to learn everything? There's some things I just don't want to know I'm good. Yeah, but now yeah, I like what you're saying about challenging the
00:31:27
Speaker
The Joseph Campbell notions, but also challenging the Christian centric kind of. Yeah, yeah. And I spent a lot of my life trying to get away from the religious side of things as well. So it's it's because I know you have a very particular sort of background in
Personal Backgrounds and Connections to The Matrix
00:31:43
Speaker
that. It's it's incredible. I'd say it's incredibly esoteric.
00:31:47
Speaker
uh to the area in which we live which is nonsensical but we'll we'll get into that better on when we're covering religion in the matrix which is probably going to be several episodes yeah but uh so yeah i i didn't have anybody to talk to about it and i just wound up
00:32:07
Speaker
uh scrolling through all of the special features on every dvd and then eventually the blu-ray and then i trolled through all of the trivia pages i could find on imdb and and various message boards and
00:32:24
Speaker
I think one of my favorites that led me to discover a lot of the weirder theories is the wild mass guessing tab on TV Troops. Ah, classic. Which I'm going to be delving into and using as a resource for that in kind of an oddball book club version of the show.
00:32:47
Speaker
Neo can control the robots at the end of reload. Oh, they're in, they're still inside of another matrix. No, that's boring. I hate that theory. Yeah. So it's. So you're saying this was, was this between the films that you found it or?
00:33:04
Speaker
Then I found what the wild mass guessing was it people? Well after I was almost entirely on my own for several years just Reading whatever weird shit I could find on various pages probably IMDB for the most part in those early days Yeah, didn't have anybody to talk to about it. And then that trailer dropped in late 2021 and I lost my mind
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah?
00:33:35
Speaker
Yeah, it felt good to be vindicated again. And then of course, our show is Reclamations. Everything begins with goddamn RE. I'm gonna get so tongue-tied over that constantly. The Matrix Recumbency came out in late 2021 and instantly it was my favorite movie of all time. It's like, well, shit, I mean, forever now. Yeah, really frustrating how that worked out.
00:34:04
Speaker
I'm super glad that now my 20 plus years of experiences is coming in handy. I mean, it's not also just the trans experience. I was like, yeah, I don't know who you are for so long. And then you do. And then you're like, well, I wish I'd known that before. Yeah. You know, just stupid lessons you didn't think you'd need again. It's like, so if it's a login screen.
00:34:22
Speaker
Oh, turns out the process for changing your legal name in the state of Pennsylvania is very similar to getting a divorce, which I have done. So it's like, wow, I hate that I'm able to use that life experience. It's just dumb.
00:34:41
Speaker
But enough about me and my bullshit, I wanna hear about how you found the matrix. Me and my bullshit? Yes, let's talk about your bullshit. Okay, well, I suppose a lot of this might be restating stuff that has been said in the Mystery Shack Lookback Matrix Resurrections episode, but I don't really care. So I'll say the stuff again. This is brand new, brand new territory. But do check out that episode if you wanna hear more insight. I'm sure I'll probably cover some of the same territory in this.
00:35:11
Speaker
Well, let's see. I mean for the closing segment like go back. Thank you hilarious. Thank you The yeah, so I mean matrix was obviously, you know as an avid watcher of Shrek the matrix is always something I was mildly aware of because it's been referenced in so many other media Shrek
00:35:34
Speaker
I just got, like, viscerally angry. Please continue. I also get viscerally angry when I think about Shrek. Hey, what else was big in 1999? Somebody wants that. Yeah, yeah. Son of a bitch. No, well, because it's a very, it's not, it is not one of the better placed pop culture references in that film.
00:35:54
Speaker
I know I would argue I would argue that none of the bullet time slash Trinity kick homages in other media I think they're rarely well done I think they're always just kind of shoehorned into a fight sequence to have that in there. They're not
00:36:09
Speaker
Very cleverly plays the one I will go to bat for his team America world police because it's just Stupid and I fully support stupid things like that. So true Yeah, so but please continue. Yeah, it's always something I had this Mild awareness of in the back of my head. I was like, yeah, you know, I know what that is. I know the gist of the the concept and then
00:36:36
Speaker
you know i guess at some point i found out about kind of the the lgbt aspect about them being trans i guess they came out in like the 2010s at various spots um and i did uh i know this because uh where this really comes to a head is uh when i was in my last year of college i took a gender studies class and i did a
00:37:00
Speaker
the final assignment for that was to research a queer artist and to talk about a piece of their work through that lens and so I talked about the Wachowskis and the Matrix through a trans lens and
00:37:15
Speaker
It's honestly one of my favorite, like, things, pieces of research I've ever done and, like, I have the whole, like, presentation. I mean, maybe at some point we meant to do a whole episode that's just that. We definitely have to do your presentation. You've presented it for me and it looks fabulous. Yes, thank you. That was a good day.
00:37:33
Speaker
So that was that was the method through which I watched the first film fully for the first time was that process. So you had the queer aspect just from the word go. That's fascinating. Exactly. Yeah. And I was watching it with that in mind. And I mean, you know, the second word of the film on screen is trans. But Jesus, they there's a
00:38:03
Speaker
Wasn't gonna say. Yeah, so that would have been early 2020, I think? Or early... no. Early 2021. Okay. So I must have watched everything... Really? That recently?
00:38:17
Speaker
I want to say so. Yes. Because it was definitely my senior year that that was a thing. I believe so. Let me let me double check real quick. Yes, it would. OK. Would have been like spring of 2021.
00:38:39
Speaker
It's a perfect movie. It is a perfect movie.
Academic Insights and Trans Narratives in The Matrix
00:38:42
Speaker
And so I did the assignment and the gist of the assignment is that I'm talking about the matrix. Yes, it is a trans story as they've confirmed, but specifically it's a closeted trans narrative. And I think that aspect is very important because it's about
00:38:58
Speaker
the process and the pain and the discovery that comes with the realization that you're trans, that you're queer. Oh, yeah. Oh, very much so. Yeah. And then, you know, you could argue how well that sustains itself through the sequels. But I was just talking about the first film, so I did not watch the sequels yet at that point. But I talked about how important it is to have those like closeted narratives, because I think people see like,
00:39:23
Speaker
oh like that's a trans artist as someone who's like already out and like talking about it but they were not able to in 1999 and i think it's important that we give space for people who i the wachowskis were an absolute mystery i remember like all of the hype especially surrounding reloaded when it first dropped and you didn't know what they even looked like which i think works out to there and then you found out and you were like oh yeah sure those are cis guys
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's very much like you see a picture of them and you're like, oh, yeah, it's like seeing Daft Punk without their helmets a little. It's just like, oh, yeah, they're like nerds. OK, that makes a lot of sense. It feels like you can tell now in hindsight that they're like, yeah, they're they're they're closeted trans or they're like they have not maybe they haven't realized it or maybe they are still closeted. Do you have any idea what they're like?
00:40:22
Speaker
egg cracking was because I'm also fascinated by that but I know that's not something if I were to meet them I wouldn't like no but I think in my research I think they've both talked fairly like candidly about or at least relatively for them like they are fairly uh reclusive and more power to them I mean I think oh yeah more public figures should be reclusive I think uh republic figures wow yeah republic republic
00:40:47
Speaker
As we all know, the Wachowskis are in the public domain. I think they've both kind of alluded to the fact that they've had certain thoughts and feelings since childhood about it.
00:41:01
Speaker
It's also fascinating to me just going back and watching those first three movies, knowing what I know now, because it's like a lot like going back and looking at weird aspects of my own life and being like, oh, that explains that. Oh, oh, oh, that. Hmm. Huh. Okay. I get it. It's interesting to me how the timeline of you realizing why you like The Matrix syncs up with you realizing that you're trans.
00:41:27
Speaker
Well, I think it really does. It's 2021 for me felt very weirdly vindicating as a human eye-opening year. So very much so. And I think I, you know, I thought, OK, I'll watch the first film because we're only for this assignment. We're only really talking about one specific work of theirs. And I thought, you know, I knew the kind of sequels did not have as fabulous of a reputation as the first film in terms of their quality. So I thought, you know, I don't know. Let me go watch those another time.
00:41:57
Speaker
And it was actually Charlie and I watched them together and I think I don't know if I could have gotten through those first watches without without her there because They're an acquired taste and I'm still a process of acquiring that taste for revolutions I think I have I think I've acquired it for reloaded. I think I can safely say I like reloaded at now
00:42:20
Speaker
We did a rewatch of the first three movies together a couple of months back. That was a lot of fun. I'm super excited to do that for uh, uh, resurrections, but I, oh, very much so. But I always like a hard sell on revolutions because I have said for 20 years, that's my favorite matrix movie, or at least I did up until I saw resurrections. Well, that means, yeah, you said that for 20 years and now it's no longer true.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I said it for 18 years, which again, it's it's again, it's it is that was another one of those weird cycle things for me. Like when I was 18, Reloaded came out and it kind of changed my life in a weird way. And then 18 years later, I realized I'm trans, a new Matrix movie comes out. It's what will happen in 20 more years when another Matrix comes out. What will you realize?
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Well, I've got 16 years left on the clock until the next turnaround. That's a cattail. That is a cattail. Like a shark's fin on the edge of the zoom window.
Ella's Marathon Viewing Experience
00:43:23
Speaker
My child is in exploratory mode. The child. She thinks, what time is it? Oh, yeah, it's a treat o'clock. Hey, hey, we're just going to give you treats live on mic. OK, I'm down for that. Why don't you film for a second while I get away from the microphone?
00:43:39
Speaker
As I'm still tethered to my lap. This is our segment on the show called Treat O'Clock. Look, I don't think I would- Because cookies need love like everything does. Today's show is brought to you by cookies. Cookies need love like everything does. Babygirl, would you like tasty wheat? How do you know what tasty wheat tastes like? I had to look up what the fuck tasty wheat was back in the day because I had no idea what the hell that shit was.
00:44:10
Speaker
Yeah, the sequels. Nobody liked them in 2003, and now here we are. Except you. Except for me. No, yeah, so Charlie and I, we watched them mostly ironically, but we watched them, you know, taking in how
00:44:29
Speaker
enjoying some of the schlock i suppose is the right word where we knew that like you said we knew that everything was intentional we we did not think like oh look how they accidentally made a terrible movie like oh look how they very deliberately made a very interesting film that not everyone likes
00:44:48
Speaker
I mean it's definitely multi-faceted in many ways because like I mean when I showed these movies to my dad for the first time after we watched the first one I said to him dad
00:45:01
Speaker
These movies are not very good, but I think they're important anyway, and they've got some cool fight scenes. And my dad's chill enough. I mean, if you've ever listened to my old podcast, Frank Reviews, you know, he's a fairly chill guy. He's a stoner deadhead that made it through the sixties. So I don't know what to tell you there.
00:45:24
Speaker
But he enjoyed them. He liked the parts where Smith got punched in the face. And then he proceeded to never think about them ever again. No, I was constantly thinking about them after that. We were constantly talking about them and saying, where's my pussy?
00:45:42
Speaker
That's gonna be a cold open for one of these episodes most most definitely absolutely. Oh, yeah But yeah, and then after that You know that was all at some point in there. We watched the animatrix and I kind of I have Mixed feelings about the animatrix, but it is an anthology. So I guess that also comes with the territory. Yeah, it's hit and miss. Oh
00:46:02
Speaker
It is, it is, but there are mostly, mostly great, I would say. The weird media blitz in 2003 was very similar to Force Awakens. I guess it would be comparable to Force Awakens, but it was very similar to Phantom Menace at the same time. I mean, the video game, the animatrix, and like three or four other things all came out.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah, I guess so in a way. I guess I did, barring the fact that I watched the first movie that same year, I did kind of have that experience where I crammed all that into one year in the lead up to, uh, resurrection, because I also played a bit of, uh, um,
00:46:42
Speaker
Enter the Matrix. I don't think I have not played Path of Neo, but I had an emulator that I played Enter the Matrix on. I have seen clips of Path of Neo. We're gonna do an episode about the video game. Yes, I have seen the most important clip from Path of Neo, which we talked about on the Mystery Cat Look Back episode. Secret Kaiju movie. Well, we thought that was really boring for a video game. So we thought, why not just change the episode?
00:47:07
Speaker
that's one of my favorite things in the world when it's like you think these are very serious people and then it's nope they're nerds that's also something that like no filmmaker would have like the guts to do nowadays because all of the nerds would roast them alive on twitter of like
Wachowskis' Unique Filmmaking Choices
00:47:21
Speaker
i can't believe they changed the the i want this i want it this specific way like i don't know they
00:47:28
Speaker
They really, they just don't give a shit to what their audience thinks. And that's so rare. They really don't. They really don't. I we're going to cover like at some point the rest of the Wachowskis movies. Yes. Yes. Of which I have only seen Bound, which is great. Speed Racer, which is great. And Jupiter Ascending, which I kind of am dreading.
00:47:55
Speaker
I have you know, it's really sad. I think sending Charlie told me is one of maybe the only film or the first film that she's ever walked out of in the theater. Oh, God, there are so many reasons why why she could have done that, too. How do you pick just one? Yeah. Oh, God.
00:48:16
Speaker
So let's, you know, again, as we said, they don't care what their audience thinks and it shows. Yes. Yes, it does. It's it's incredible. Sometimes it shows in the form of a hairstyle that really doesn't work for multiple reasons, let's say. Well, elephant in the room, maybe. Well.
00:48:37
Speaker
Well, oh, speaking of- I'm gonna get that out of the way up at the top. Yeah, well- Before people Google the Wachowskis. We're recording on the 21st of June, so happy birthday, Lana Wachowski. Happy birthday, Lana. What's with the dreads, huh? Can we not do the dreads, maybe?
00:48:59
Speaker
I don't even know how to interface with that. I mean, me neither. It's neither of our places to really say all week, but I can say with certainty that... I've met you. We're both pretty pasty, so... Yeah, but I can say with some certainty that it's probably not okay. Probably not.
00:49:17
Speaker
And I know they have other questionable content of that in like maybe one or two of their other films. I mean I guess Speed Racer is guilty of that in some ways. The only movies I've seen of theirs honestly are The Matrix's and Speed Racer. So I'm super excited to see the rest of this.
00:49:36
Speaker
I have not. No, it's yeah, his bound was there for okay, but the fact that their first film is a lesbian heist film. People were like, yeah, these are cisgendered men. What? I guess at some point he wants shame on me, but
00:49:58
Speaker
It sounds a lot like how I never wanted to play dodgeball with the boys. I always went to playground with the girls. It's just so dumb. So dumb. We're going to say it probably a lot during the course of the show, but the binary is stupid. Yeah. Unless you're actually programming, in which case you should probably learn binary. Yeah, but I think even programmers would agree that it's stupid. They probably don't like it. They just have to work with it.
00:50:30
Speaker
uh but then yeah so i guess after that you know it was all in that one year and then i and then the resurrections came out so it's it's not it's certainly the opposite of yours in that i really speed ran the whole thing it's all very compressed into a year whereas it was for you it was a you know maybe
00:50:49
Speaker
Oh, it was a lifetime. Yeah. 18 years I waited. For you, the day Matrix Resurrections entered your life was the most important day of your life. But for me, for me it was Tuesday. I think it was actually a Tuesday. I think it was Wednesday.
00:51:08
Speaker
Probably was a Wednesday cuz it was that palindromic sort of day, right? Yeah Yes, I I work the second shift at the time So I just Bex came over at like 10 o'clock in the morning and we hit and play on HBO max Oh, what a day. Oh, was it a same day HBO max release? Oh
00:51:30
Speaker
Unfortunately, yes, but I did see it in theaters that weekend because it was Christmas weekend and I went to the theater by myself, which I don't typically like to do, which is why I like, which is why I haven't seen so many of their movies yet is because I hate watching new things alone. It's a communal experience. No, you're right. And it's at that point, you know, it was still like theaters were so kind of opening back up. It was not
00:51:53
Speaker
People weren't flocking into the theaters to shed their germs on everyone else. Well, it also opened the same week as one of the Spider-Man's. Was it the latest live-action Spider-Man? It was no way home, I guess. No way home, yeah. And everybody was flipping their shit about Tobey Maguire and Keanu Reeves is left out in the dust. Yeah, come on. You support one 2000's heartthrob, but not another?
00:52:22
Speaker
Yeah, come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Oh, what was I going to say about, uh... It doesn't help that I hate Spider-Man, so... Yeah, which is one of the things that always surprises me about you, to remember about you. Okay, well, let me clarify, because we're also recording this post across the Spider-Verse.
00:52:42
Speaker
Turns out, it's not that I don't like Spider-Man, it's that I just don't like the regular character of Peter Parker. I find him boring and inert dramatically. And Stacey as a fucking punk drummer? Hell yes. Miles Morales with a story that is not...
00:53:00
Speaker
An idiot white boy who's, you know, just got to make rent. It's like, okay. Yeah. Just give me literally anything. Peter B Parker with a baby Bjorn. Hell yes. Yes. Uh, yeah. Like I'm into that shit. Yeah. We're also going to have to do an episode on fucking across the spider verse movies. Yeah. We both texted each other, I think, uh, separately. And it was just like, wait a minute. Is this the matrix reloaded?
00:53:25
Speaker
It is, though. No, OK, we'll get to that. Maybe when Beyond comes out, we'll just do an episode on all three and talk about how it's just the Matrix. I'm pretty chill with that. If we're aiming to do one of these a month, we got time. Also, it's we. Oh, God, what was I going to say? About the spiders. This.
00:53:50
Speaker
across this but they're menaces they've got their menaces that It was yeah, and then you texted me and said like yes, you know the biggest screen you possibly can Yeah Yeah, I mean the matrix has its cool fight sequences, but like everything's green This is like a kaleidoscope at in a drive-thru car wash. It's greatest
00:54:15
Speaker
I was gonna say I was gonna say something else about across the spider verse. I want to say before I forget The cliffhanger ending no, not just that but it was that Nah, it's all right. I'll think about we'll get back to it. We'll get back to it But yeah, I came out the same time as no way home, but I chose to see I
00:54:36
Speaker
Matrix resurrections because I have taste. I still have my screenshot of a ticket stub. God, I hate the digital age. Yeah, I do have to have a physical ticket stub. I'm so jealous. Privileged in that way. I have an autographed picture of Christina Ricci from like the week after she was announced to be in the movie. I doubt that counts for anything, but I say it does.
00:55:00
Speaker
Oh, you're very kind. Thank you. You are welcome. But yeah, so we saw that and then we talked about it on the Mystery Shack Lookback podcast. And yeah, it was a... And then I started harassing you.
00:55:16
Speaker
It was the best, best harassment I've ever received. It wasn't even harassment. I know you say that jokingly, but genuinely it was like. Good, good. Because I don't want anybody to learn the wrong lesson and think that's just cold, spamming. Cold DMing someone is the right of their heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not happening. I've got at least what I like to consider to be a little bit of charm and enough nerd lore bullshit to back it up.
00:55:44
Speaker
Yeah, and seeing it theatrically, of course, was fantastic as well, but it was...
00:55:53
Speaker
He said he was also. Yeah, because like the first like I guess streaming things. It's it's The Matrix hasn't been one of those movies that gets like regular re-releases. So I guess the first big screen experience you would have had with The Matrix in general was that movie. Yeah. Was was Resurrection. Yeah. And then we watched because I've got a big projector set up. So we we we we enjoyed it on a very large projected screen. The 4K steelbook. Yes.
00:56:23
Speaker
Yeah, I paid a lot of money for the great big box set of the four movie steel books collection. I'm just very proud of it. It sits on my shelf and it's just nice to look at.
00:56:35
Speaker
It is really beautiful. And then you gifted me the one of Resurrections. Well, I had two, so it wasn't exactly like I went out of my way to get you a gift. Yeah, but still, yeah. I'm glad you're at least enjoying its presence if you don't have a 4K player. But it's so beautiful.
00:56:53
Speaker
Got that going for it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, I think, is that our recap on our experience with, uh, our first experiences with the matrix? I suppose so. I know there was something else that slipped my mind, but, um, let me try to retrace my steps here. We were talking about matrix resurrections release on the palindrome day. We're talking about how it released the same day on HBO max. Right. And then you were saying that the movies are supposed to be the.
00:57:23
Speaker
the communal experience yeah i i could get into it and that would eat up a lot of time and i probably will get into it more in depth in a future episode but i hate the streaming era i uh i am a uh uh bex calls me a physical media princess
00:57:43
Speaker
As you should be yeah, well, it's hey as the recent Hulu is being dissolved soon. Yeah. Whoa. What are we doing? We're dead naming max. We can't dead name max Okay, okay
00:58:04
Speaker
It's just Max now. Lose the HBO, it's cleaner. Yeah, because you don't have to pay your writers. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so that's one of the many reasons why I hate the streaming era. Things can come and go as a corporation pleases with no way to access it properly. I mean, that's why several prominent Disney creators
00:58:31
Speaker
have become low-key advocates for piracy. Because, hey, if there's no way to legally watch it and give the creators money, you might as well just steal it. Disney was the one who said, yo-ho, yo-ho, a pirate's life for me, so it's kind of their own fault. Oh boy, oh boy. Are we bringing They Were Asking For It logic into this conversation? Because, uh... Well... It's a corporation. And as we know, corporations are people.
00:59:00
Speaker
Of course the Supreme Court said so and the Supreme Court are also people apparently people with kneecaps Actually didn't know that because they were those robes all the time they hide them very well
00:59:17
Speaker
You wouldn't know. You wouldn't know. We should have a team. You know what? No. I don't even want to make jokes about the modern situation in America right now. Because it's just gonna piss me off and I want to talk about The Matrix. We will get into the horse shit that trans people face on a daily basis. Probably is an ongoing theme just peppered throughout the rest of the show. Yeah, like a light, a light sprinkling throughout. I suppose it is relevant information.
00:59:44
Speaker
It's like we're being hunted by, uh, Sentinels or something like that. Only the Sentinels drive pickup trucks and have flags on the back of them. Oh, yeah. Well, it's, and it's like he's umpire Palpatine and Voldemort and the Hunger Games guy combined. And it's really bad, you guys. So we have to vote really hard. Yeah. Vote harder. That's the answer. I'm voting as hard as I can, Captain.
01:00:13
Speaker
Speaking of... Speaking of my love of physical media, I hate voting anymore because it's just you push a button or you slide a piece of paper through a scanner. It's like I've had one election where I got to... This is just our Andy Rooney 60 minutes part at the end of the episode. Things were different back in the day.
01:00:35
Speaker
Look, I never got a young woman face, so I might as well skip straight to old lady. That's okay. Fair enough. You deserve that. Thanks. But yes, The Matrix.
Comparing The Matrix to Other Art Forms
01:00:46
Speaker
It is one of my favorite things of all time, despite how flawed of a franchise it is. It's one of the most interesting. There's very few pieces of media that are as interesting for me to think about and talk about and watch as this one, where it's like,
01:01:01
Speaker
It's so not cut and dry on whether I'm like, oh, this is great, or I don't like this. Like it's it's so much deeper than that. And I think it gives me an overall appreciation for all like art that is like, yeah, I think I was having this conversation with Charlie a while back as well, where I've.
01:01:18
Speaker
I kind of stopped viewing art in terms of good or bad because I don't think I think that's kind of the least interesting way to look at art. I think it's more interesting to look at it in terms of its impacts and like how impactful is this and did it did it leave an impression on you and in what way I think it's yeah there's more nuance and I think watching something like Matrix and its sequels highlights that in a way that
01:01:44
Speaker
In a way that a child on the internet, as I was, raised on the nostalgia critic would not have necessarily had the language to discuss back then. Yes, and now thank God there's podcasts where you can have as much nerds talking about movies in every flavor as you could possibly want. Yeah, because there's far less restrictions as far as time and as far as
01:02:14
Speaker
not to just not to implicitly like disparage podcast, but like podcast, you don't have to be, you don't have to give like a snappy like visual or like headline of like, this is terrible, or like this is awesome. Like you, you're allowed to get into the weeds of it in a format like this, like. And, and we will be getting into the weeds. Well, that was your previous podcast. I mean,
01:02:43
Speaker
Don't get it twisted, I'm high right now. So it's not a hook of the show, but that's just- It's not part of our brand. That's just what you're doing. No, it's part of my brand, as it were, which is why people out of nowhere text me memes about Weed, Christina Ricci, and Dune. Oh Dune, oh Dune. Dune, we're gonna have to do a whole episode about goddamn Dune. I'm surprised that Dune did not come apart.
01:03:10
Speaker
I have resisted because... I must not talk about Dune. Dune is the mind killer.
01:03:21
Speaker
You're saying this is a joke. I have to forcibly stop myself from thinking or talking about Dune in any given situation. And it drives Bex insane. So, yeah, we're probably going to talk about Dune at some future point just because that's who I am as a person. There are connections now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, that that would be an interesting one to kind of cross reference.
01:03:49
Speaker
It's definitely another one of those franchises where I'm just like, why the hell do I like this? Well, it's because Dune is also trans is the thing. Okay.
01:04:01
Speaker
What do you mean it's a power that only the women of our society have? We have four minutes left on this Zoom record. All right. We can't get this deep into the paint on Dune as we're getting deep into the paint on The Matrix. Fair enough. We will get into Dune later. OK. I can live with that.
01:04:22
Speaker
So do you want to do you want to sign off for now? How long we've been going for? Oh I don't know for an hour and change. That's a change episode. I think not bad I've got a nice opening cooked up ready to go. You do indeed at some point. I will similarly cook up some cover art We can talk about what we need that. Yes, we talk about what we want for that. We can talk about that off mic Yeah, but yes, I have been at Hope Lickner on most phone form Wow
01:04:52
Speaker
I can't speak either, apparently. I have been, at Hope Lickner, on most forms of social media. Find me. I have been, uh, Ella Chesery, at Drawn Without Ref on the social medias, or, uh, check out MrShackLookback on pipedreampodcast.com, our host network, or wherever you get your podcasts. Uh, find me there, or don't. Uh, I-
01:05:17
Speaker
don't really use twitter much anymore for i can't imagine why no who can remember um it's all those pesky red pills floating i hate this place oh god i get so much use out of it it's the smell it's sad that's why i had to leave twitter it was the smell well i'd say it was uh inevitability no yeah no it was the smell it was the musk really
01:05:44
Speaker
da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da