Transcript
Speaker: So I just started sending the notes and it was like, hey, praying for you, thinking about you while you're fighting. You know, we all got your back, whatever you would say in that instance, short, supportive. And then I try to be funny because that's me. That's my cover for my, you know, where I feel like, why, what am I doing? So I do that for probably 14 weeks.
Speaker: I send the cards and of course I don't hear back because why would you? They're fighting for this kid's life. And then I go on Facebook one morning, it was a Sunday morning and she, she's this long heartfelt post. Just heartbreaking that Parker has passed away at 15 years old.
Speaker: Welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. I'm your host, Kendra Rinaldi. This is a space to explore the full spectrum of grief, from the kind that comes with death to the kind that shows up in life's many transitions.
Speaker: Through stories and conversations, we remind each other that we're not alone. Your journey matters, and here we're figuring it out together. Let's dive right in to today's episode.
Speaker: Let's start with a quick disclaimer. This podcast includes personal stories and perspectives on topics like grief, health, and mental wellness. The views expressed by guests are their own and may reflect individual experiences that are not meant as medical advice.
Speaker: As the host, I hold space for diverse voices, but that does not mean I endorse every viewpoint shared. Please listen with care and take what resonates with you.
Speaker: Hello, today our guest is Amy Wineland Daughter. She is a freelance writer and author whose life took an unexpected turn after reconnecting with a former camp friend, Dana, through Facebook.
Speaker: And at that moment, we're going to find out more, but Dana's son had cancer at that moment when Amy reconnected with her and she started writing and written letters and that, of course, for those of you listening to this, this might even be like, what? I don't even know what that is to get an actual letter in the mail. So we will find out more about that. And she wrote the book, Dear Dana, That time I went crazy and wrote all to all 580 of my Facebook friends handwritten letters. She also has another book that we will be talking about today as well. So welcome to the podcast, Amy.
Speaker: Thank you, Kendra. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on. I am happy you're here. So let's start with your life. who you were Right now you live in Houston, is that correct?
Speaker: That's correct. Okay. Actually a native Houstonian. Native Houstonian. Okay. Take take us into so your, you were born and raised there and you're there there, but did you, you left at some point in your life?
Speaker: I did. I've left several times. Okay. Tell us. Yeah. So I, ive the you know, my, I grew up here. I grew up outside of town, so I'm a suburban, ah heritage person, you know, so so like many people, that's where I grew up. And then I went away to college, Texas Tech University, which is up in the panhandle of Texas. And then I got married, came back, got married, got a job. And then my husband's job moved us to England for three years. So that was our first adventure. Then we came back for probably two years and then we set off for Ohio, the wilds of Ohio in the Midwest. We spent 13 years there and pretty much raised our children there and then moved back to Houston right before COVID. And I think maybe we're done moving, but who knows? It's been an adventure though.
Speaker: Are your kids grown already? Yes, our last one departed and he's he's at LSU in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So it's it's been an interesting. Empty nesting then for you guys now? Right. We're in the second year and it's a delight. And I realized like, oh my gosh, I'm married to this person and I like him. Like this is fun. And the other thing is I work from home. And so it's a little bit unsettling because no one ever returns, you know,
Speaker: with the bus or with their car or whatever. And so as someone who's kind of creative, you know, that it's been a different, like the rhythm of life has had to be readjusted, but, but good for them. Cause they're out living their best life. And so am I. So. Where's the other one at? So one is in LSU. The other one is?
Speaker: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh. Okay, so that's a little bit a little bit farther then. So it's so interesting because I'm kind of in that stage, but I have one that's already in college, but he's local, so he just drives. But my second one, she's going to be going away. So we won't really be feeling the empty nester feeling.
Speaker: you know, stage of our lives right away, just because one is still going to be at home. The oldest is still at home. So it's a little, little different, but it's so, it's such a big change. And for a lot of times for people that brings up a lot of grief and emotions too, because it's a new stage in your life. Well, that's it. And I realized, and it's not, and I think, I think it is, does have shades of grief because I, when you're in that raising kids, it's so,
Speaker: you know, there's a monotony to it and it's like, oh, this is never gonna be over, like all this we do. And then when it is, you're like, wait, that was the best part. Maybe that was the best part. And then then I think what I've learned is now i I'm gonna honor that as one of the best parts and I'm gonna look back and smile and I'm gonna think about them being small and I'm gonna think about all the stuff we did and all the times I sat in the parent pickup line with joy in my heart and so thankful I got to do it. And then realizing there's another adventure here for me as an individual. And I think creatively at some point, this is really going to skyrocket for me because I've worked on several projects since then, but the traction has not been there. And I think it's because, like you said, it was an emotional hit to me, though a good thing, though a really good thing, something that was profoundly impactful on me.
Speaker: I tell people that grief doesn't happen just in sad moments of life. It can happen in these big, happy moments, right, in which there's like a shift in life and a big change in our lives and seeing our kids be independent and growing. We're excited for them.
Speaker: But as well, there's some elements of grief because you're like, wait, now what do I do? And like you said, you had not probably been like full on in your writing at one point while you were raising them. Then you are, then back again to like dealing. with So yeah, it's so a roller coaster in our lives. every Every moment can bring a new new change and experience.
Speaker: Right. And it's different for all of us. And I think that's the other thing to allowing ourselves to like, these this is how I feel. And it's not exactly like how you feel. But that's fine because, you know, just trusting yourself like this is how I really feel and I'm going to deal with it in my own way. So, yeah, perfect. Perfect. Yeah, that is that is life. OK, let's go into your friendship with Dana and how you reconnected to Facebook and what year was that?
Speaker: And we'll go into the development of that book. Right, right. And this all happened. totally not intentionally. And I think that's what makes it, what was so magical for me. I mean, the parts of it that are magical. I mean, there's obviously the element of of deep sadness in the story, you know, but basically I worked at a summer camp in Texas in 1986 and I met Dana. Dana's four years older than me. Our our meeting in time was brief, six weeks probably. we were both loud and thought we were funny. So I think we connected over that and we had a couple of deep conversations
Speaker: And then we did 30 years of life completely apart, 30 something years apart. It was by 2015 and I got on Facebook. I mean, we literally had no interaction and she had always,
Speaker: then somebody whose name had popped back in my head. And I think we all have those people like, what happened to, you know, fill in the blank. And for me, Dana was one of those people. So one moment I'm on Facebook and I was like, oh, Dana popped back up. And I'm like, I type her name in and there she is. Voila, it's Dana from 1986. And since it didn't require any kind of commitment on my part, of course, I friend request her. And maybe she remembered me. I don't know. And she accepted my friendship request.
Speaker: and you know And that leads to the delightful moments of scrolling through someone's life to see what happened. their hair Yeah, their hair changed. didn' Yeah, like what happened? And this woman had five kids, so she overachieved in the children department. And then right away, like post number four, I scrolled past. I figured out, you know I didn't know right about She had four older girls, four daughters, one son. He was the only boy, and his name was Parker. And right away, I found out that Parker was at St. Jude in Memphis fighting cancer. And so if you're in Memphis, Tennessee, it's probably serious. And so right away as a mom, as a human being, as just a person, I was like, oh no worst case scenario. And of course I felt something because I'm a human being, you know? And then I started to kind of overfeel it. Like I was really like getting into these people's story. And so I watched this film
Speaker: I don't say anything. I don't comment. I don't like, cause that seems disingenuous. I mean, don't know she knows who I am, but he goes into remission. And then at the end of that year, the cancer comes back and he goes back to Memphis and she's very honest in her posts.
Speaker: And the day after she posted about the cancer being back and they were going back to Memphis, I sat down at my desk again, totally non-intentionally. And it's like a lightning bolt hit me in the side of the head. And I'm like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start sending Dana and Parker little supportive cards, And I didn't even say handwritten in my head. I just said, I'm going to send them cards. And I knew she was staying at the Ronald McDonald house because of her post.
Speaker: And so I'm just going to send these people cards ah there. And I hadn't written anyone a card in probably 25 years. um and And I didn't, I still hadn't had any zero contact with her and I'd never met the kids. So really this was like the level one of the craziness of the story.
Speaker: But I did it. So I just started sending the notes. And it was like, hey, praying for you, thinking about you while you're fighting. You know, we all got your back. Whatever you would say in that instance. Short, supportive. And then I try to be funny because that's me. That's my cover for my, you know, where I feel like, why what am I doing? So I do that for probably 14 weeks.
Speaker: I send the cards. And, of course, I don't hear back because why would you? They're fighting for this kid's life. And then I go on Facebook one morning. was a Sunday morning. And she does this long, heartfelt post. just heartbreaking that Parker has passed away at 15 years old.
Speaker: Just total devastation. and i And I knew it had nothing to do with me. i was more upset than I think I should have been. I mean, I cried about it, but I felt so connected in writing those notes, you know connected me to these people in a very special way. And so i was like, so what do I do next? And then it was just gut instinct. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna keep writing her. Cause I can't just not write her anymore. Like I was saying, I'm supporting you. So now the kid passes away. So I'm just gonna drop it.
Speaker: so So now, Kendra, I have to figure out where she lives because I no longer have the cover of the Ronald McDonald House. And so i go back this little stalking and I figure out her husband's an attorney. So I'm like, well, this makes sense. I'll just send the...
Speaker: notes there to her husband's law office address. So level two of crazy. So I just keep writing her and the letters get longer and longer. Cause like, what am I going to say? Either level two of crazy or level two stalker, which one should you say? Oh a hundred percent. and And I'd be lying if I didn't sit down every time I wrote her and thought, what must she think of all this? But I couldn't stop.
Speaker: You know, something was just driving me. And so... And you never thought of like, let me just ask her in the messages on Facebook what her address is. You really wanted to innately just send it. Like you never even asked like, what's your home address? I want to send you something ever. like No. just Because I was, I didn't want to, i felt like I didn't want to interrupt the grief with my nonsense, you know, and I was, I just could not imagine what this girl was going through. and and I knew she must not completely remember me because I wasn't a hundred percent clear on her. And we had spent all these years apart and it did seem stalkers and it did seem like, you know, I was doing something that was almost wrong. And so that's why I didn't Facebook message her.
Speaker: But then about four or five months later, and I would be lying if I'd not say i was sitting over those notes thinking i got to stop doing this. This is nuts. I go out to my mailbox in Ohio and it's my birthday.
Speaker: And so I'm thinking, oh, maybe something will come. But this is like 2016, 2017. two thousand and sixteen two thousand and seventeen So that's not going to happen. And on the top of the junk mail is this 10 page handwritten letter from Dana.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh my God. and so I hold onto this thing. Like it's the jewel of the Nile. I prance across my yard. I go inside. I'm like, oh my Lanta. So, and, and in this letter, she's, it's like 10 pages of handwritten and she writes about her grief and her kids. And at the end, she says something very telling. And she tells me how much my letters have meant to her. And she said, they wait for the letters to come every week, like stuff I could have never known. And she, uh,
Speaker: At the end, she says something very telling. She's like, you know, I didn't mean to write any of that, but somehow I feel better from saying all that. And so, Kendra, this kicks off two years of Dana and I being pen pals. Strangers.
Speaker: We shared... stuff through the mail that we had never shared with anyone else. We would say ridiculous things like, I've never told anybody this before, but I know I can trust you. And it was such an intimate, tactile relationship.
Speaker: And there was no fear of a response. So I didn't know when this crossing in the mail created this free space where I didn't feel like I needed to respond to her shares about grief. And she didn't feel like she needed to respond to anything I said specifically unless she wanted to. And so you had this free space to say what you wanted to and really not worry about it. You knew there was another human being, but you you couldn't see it. So it was so freeing to communicate in that in that way. And so that opened up, I think, a much more open discourse. But the other thing that was so beautiful is I didn't know what she believed in. i didn't know how she voted. I didn't know anything except for I cared about her deeply and trusted her blindly through this nonstop exchange of handwritten words.
Speaker: And that had such, it really was a profound impact me. It kind of changed the lens. So I looked at almost everything in my life. And then I was writing about my life and looking out from the outside in and writing these letters and sharing. And so that was cathartic. So I sat back after about, I don't know, six months of this, that the of the two-way exchange. And it was regular. it was very regular. And I was like, you know, if all this can change with the one girl, like the one girl who I don't really know if we remember each other, like what's up with the hundreds of people on this list who I'm friends with on Facebook? Like what other untapped goodness is on this list? And I'm like, you know, here's the deal. Here's what we're gonna do.
Speaker: I'm going to try to write all of them. And I did not think I was going to write everybody. So I got stationery. I got a journal. I put everybody's name in an Excel spreadsheet. I printed it out. I cut it in dual slips. I shoved it into a box. And then I was like, I'll get to like letter 24. It'd be like an experiment. But when I got to letter 24 of writing these people, i was like, wait a second.
Speaker: This is the most important thing I'm going to do in my life. This is going to be, this is life changing. And so it took me 18 months, but I wrote almost 600 letters. Then I cut off my friendship quest because I couldn't go any further. I was done. And it absolutely changed my life to the point that I wrote a book about it, that I speak about it, that I can't shut up about it.
Speaker: How did you find out everybody's addresses then at that point? Because you had... You had done that for Dana, you had kind of done all this. so for your 580 friends on Facebook, did you message them and ask, at or did you do the same approach?
Speaker: Well, that's a great question. I think that's the number one question I get, but um I had about 40% of the addresses I had access to them. So the other 60%, I would try, like if you were a teacher, that's easy. I could just send it to the school, you know, or if you had a known work address, because that's much less personal too. But my my last resort was messaging the person and saying, hey, and just being completely transparent, I'm writing you a letter. I'm kind of testing the bounds of you know Facebook friendship, you know if you want to give me your address, that's great. And I got 97% the addresses probably. Well, especially, and I was shocked by that because it's a physical address in this world that we live in. But once people found out about the letter writing thing, then it became much easier to manage that. Really the first 25% of the letters, it it was a little more, I had to, i I never talked anyone into it, but I, people would ask for me to verify my identity. So they would know I, that that I was who I said I was, but it got much easier later in the project.
Speaker: Now, how many of the letters that you sent got, you got a response back? Like what percentage of the letters that you sent out to people, did you get also response back? Well, and ah and worse you know, response rate in any way, like whether it was most of them were handwritten notes or letters back, but Facebook message or in person or a text or a call, my response rate was about 78%. So it was great. That's so good. That part of that connection and really creating that part of community and taking the time, the fact, I think that that is the letter writing process.
Speaker: genius part of it is that taking the time right now we don't really take the time to connect with people in that way we just you know we do the easy way right somebody's birthday i don't even have to think about it two weeks before their birthday to then send out a card so that it arrives on the day how it was at least when i was a kid when my grandmother would send us cards from the states to colombia where i grew up you know we'd get them, you know, on our birthday, she'd have to think of that, you know weeks prior. Nowadays, we just send a text or something like that. So that just says so much about that intention and the care that you were putting.
Speaker: out there. Well, that's, and that's what blew people away, Kendra. I could not believe how much this meant to people and what you just said, you nailed it. Like you hit it right on the nail because it required sacrifice, time and resources for just one person. And we live in this world and there's something so great about social media. It's a jump off point for real relationship. And there's something so great and necessary about instantaneous communication. But when you, it makes people feel isolated. It makes them feel like they don't matter as much. But this simple act, and it's so tactile because I hold in my hand what you held in your hand if you mailed me something. And it makes people realize, oh my gosh, I matter this much to another human being, enough for them to get a piece of paper and find my address and to write a few things or a lot of things down and then drive across town and drop it in a mailbox. Wait, you have to buy a stamp. Who even has those anymore? They hold that in their hand. They're like, oh my gosh, I matter this much to another human being. And it blew people away. It blew me away because I didn't realize that I had that power. But the most important part of my message is we all have that power.
Speaker: Every single one of us has this power and it's applicable anywhere where there's a human on human relationship. I love that. Now, for two years, you did that pen pal with Dana.
Speaker: Did you guys ever then talk on the phone afterwards? Did you meet in person? How did that friendship or that dynamic work? change or evolve through the years. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's a great story because after two years, she invited me to Memphis to go and participate in the St. Jude marathon weekend. And my family went, her family was there. We met. And everyone was nervous, like, what this is really going to look like in real life. Now she's my best friend. She actually just called me right in of the podcast and probably wondering why I didn't pick up. She probably, her her ear is probably burning, like we said, like, because we've been talking about her. She's probably like. like Right. And she's like a sister in the letters. We still write each other some, but the the letters, that intimacy we created with the letters, I think it makes it the most important, well, special, you know, impactful friendship in my life. And now people say, Oh, you did so much for Dana. Dana has done, Dana and her family have done more for me than my family and, and me have done for them. It's just, it's an incredibly, it's a beautiful story that ended with this beautiful everyday relationship.
Speaker: I love that. Now, as you were talking about the time and the effort of putting into the letters and I'm thinking about my own way of how I in, interact, even like sending my own family, just maybe a message on a text when it's their birthday, i even with my own family members. And I have been filled with all the letters and cards that I received back in the day. And I still go back to reading that. And it says so much about that, not only the other person, but it just even where I was in my life, it tells me, right. It's like, and which now we can jump into that. it read I tar time travel.
Speaker: when I go into my box of letters because it takes me back to that time when I'm reading my friend's letter to me hey and what do you do and but do you still like that that the boy whatever this is like 30 years ago and like right right you know and then you're like wow it just takes you back then and we we we don't didn't have phones that I don't go through all my cell phone text messages to see things that we've communicated now through some of these friendships to so kind of bring back some of these memories from before. So I think that there is something really beautiful there with that of being able to reestablish that habit of connecting with people in a deeper way, like you were saying.
Speaker: Right, and you give them a gift, like what you talked about, to go back and look at those. And and and a lot of us that wrote letters or had grandparents who wrote us letters or parents, we've saved them for a reason. and But we can give people that now. And really, it's even more of a gift now because no one does it. you know But you look at your grandparents' handwriting and and And that's a facet of our personalities that we've forgotten about, not because we're bad people with bad intentions, because we've moved on you know from a technological standpoint. And that's great. But I really feel like this power of AI just absolutely enhances the power of emotional intelligence. And that's what letter and note writing is. It is on so many different levels. It's a win-win, you know, it, I don't think other than send, send someone cash in the mail, it can be rivaled in meaning at depth, long-term impact.
Speaker: So, so agree with that. Now let's talk about your other book, the one you wrote your first one and. how even time traveling pick plays a part even there. So this one is, you cannot mess this up, a true story that never happened. And I want to know that subtitle probably more than I like even the title. I'm like a true story. i have to I have to read that twice. I'm like a true story that never happened. I'm like, okay, I want to hear. Tell me about the title and then into the theme of this book.
Speaker: Right. and And the true story that never happened is is it just kind of highlights but the story of our memories, I guess. Because our memories, you know because what i do the the the premise of the book is I i basically it's it's It's a memoir wrapped up in the ah tortilla of time travel because I write myself back to my own childhood. So the premise is I go back home from Ohio to Houston to attend some meetings about my parents' estate. and My parents are still living at the time. And when I'm on the plane going back, I go back to 1978.
Speaker: And so I get dropped off at my childhood home in 1978 and I have to spend like 36 hours in my childhood home. They think I'm a cousin from Ohio, so they don't know who I am. But I have to spend 36 hours with my parents who are the same age as me in the story.
Speaker: My brother and sister who are 12 and eight in the story and then my 10 year old self. And so I go back and re-remember the memories I had through the ideas, through through the lens of an adult woman with two kids and a marriage. And so it's a true story because it's my memories, but it never happened, you know, because I go back in time and see it all again as an adult. so's and So it's basically like back and back to the future type of thing, but of you now going back, being there with who you are now, facing your own younger self and remembering everything that you lived through in that time.
Speaker: Right, and it turns my memories, obviously, on their ear because if you imagine going back in time to your own childhood as an adult, you would see everything differently because you would see it through the lens of someone who'd lived 40 something years or whatever years of life and you'd be like, wait a second. Wait, mom was just trying to survive the 70s and she didn't have near the resources or the, you know, the opportunities I had. You know, dad's a great guy, you know, but he's clueless in a way. And like my older sister, I'm still jealous of her. People are smoking. Where is the water? You know, there's no hydration. thought of that too. I'm like, wait, I don't remember ever carrying my water bottle when I left my house, which now I never leave my house without a water bottle.
Speaker: Oh yeah, no, it was a completely different. And so I, and I did, and again, it has a non-intentionality as my second book, the Dear Dana thing had the letter writing journey itself, not the book. But you know, I went into writing that story thinking I'm going to write a hilarious back in time book.
Speaker: That's what's going happen. It's going to be like, 70s clothes and plaid and smoking and like chest hair and gold chains and like inappropriate tightly pants on men and all that's gonna be so hilarious but then when I actually wrote myself back in time I was like wait a second going to have all the feelings because we're all going to have all the feelings if that's our scenario. So I wrote A Catharsis Without Meaning To because I went into writing that book one person and came out another person. I think that's the thing I'm most proud of is because I think readers have that same – because you're obviously going to put yourself in my shoes and try to live that out yourself.
Speaker: and see what that would feel like. And it changed me in in really good ways. how How did that dynamic then of you observing, like you said, you're you're looking at your mom now through the lens of this adult in what you're witnessing there of how she's then treating you and your sister and so forth, and then your dad, and the empathy that might come now that you are basically her, you know, also raising now kids, How how was that and how did that then change your dynamic in person then to her while you were in this time traveling as you were doing your book?
Speaker: Right. it I think it let everyone unilaterally off the hook. Cause you know, I like a lot of other people had ah a difficult relationship with my mother. And, but then when I got to see, it was a gift. Cause I was like, wait a second, how did she get all those clothes clean? and And no one thanked her for Thanksgiving dinner. I mean, this is, you know, I was like, this BS, you know? And then I saw she was hard on me. Part of the thing, i she was hard on me because I was, I was so full of unbridled mirth that I was difficult to control. i should have been on some kind of medication probably. They didn't have it then. And and I was a loving little kid, but I was also didn't fit in the box that she needed me to fit in in the 70s. And so it let that led her off the hook. It let my sister off the hook because I realized she just always had my back, left my brother off the hook. And and most importantly, the the mom the mother-daughter relationship was
Speaker: one of the most important things that got let off the hook. But really, I went into writing that story and I watched videos of myself and saw pictures and I was so, i was all over the place. And i was like, oh my God, you've got to stop. Like she's got to control herself. And I was so uncomfortable with little Amy. And by the end of the story, I was like, wait a second.
Speaker: I lived a lot of the greatest parts of that little kid away. Like I lived it away. Real life just took it away from me. I, and I, and I went ah from like, get her away from me. i am uncomfortable to being like, Oh my God, I want to spend the rest of my life trying to be more like that awesome kid who doesn't care what anyone thinks.
Speaker: So you, so I let myself off the hook. Yeah. You reconnected then with that child part of yourself and really fell in love back to who you were. Like we always say like, ah people, what is it, like turn like, heal that inner child, you know, healing this inner child. For you, that was that. You went back to loving that inner child of you by writing this this memoir, you know, in in that process. Now, so you, so for you to trigger these emotions and bring them up ah emotions, memories, these memories you use then pictures, videos, what other, what other things did you use to kind of trace yourself back to those times to be able to have it be ah a cohesive story?
Speaker: Yeah, that's that's a great question. And I had younger kids at the time, so I had the great privilege to – spent a couple weekends at the 70s resort in in Ohio that still looks 70. So I tucked myself away, and I had the VCR with me. I mean I literally liked the VCR in because that's what the the family movies were on. And I spread out the the albums, and I got the Sears catalogs, and I had the benefit of the internet, and I basically just – submerged myself, tried to get myself mentally and emotionally in a place where I was an adult in that same space. And then I had another significant physical opportunity. My childhood home went up for sale during the writing of the book. So I actually flew back to Houston and somehow, some way I convinced my parents and my brother and sister to go.
Speaker: i did a showing like as if I was going to, was interested in the house. So that's how I set it up. I kind of feel bad about that, but it worked out really good. And so we visited that physical space together. The five of us spent about an hour and a half in that house. And that gave me that physical sense of what it would be like to be me back in that space.
Speaker: you know And then I also got their reactions, which was really valuable because even though they weren't doing the time traveling in the book, their reactions to our same space, especially since my sister's older than me, my brother's younger, and my parents are obviously older, but it gave me the sense of of the change for them. And so I got to use all of that to, you know, as my own reaction in the book. So that was a huge gift. And I think it made that realness, I think, is reflected in the book.
Speaker: you You mentioned the how it changed your life now. In what ways do you feel that shifted either who you are and in relation as a mother, as a wife, by going back and writing this book?
Speaker: Yeah, i think I think the biggest takeaway was, well, as a mom was like, please tell me they're not going to do the same book. Because, you know, my best intentions, and I think that was one of the biggest, most profound lessons was, you know, when we're doing in real life in real time, no matter what the context is, we're just doing the best we can for the most part. You know, we're being the best moms, the best wives, the best friends, the best aunt, whatever, the best human being. We're just trying to do the best with what we got in that moment on that day. you know? And so looking back at my mother, I'm like, she was doing the same thing. Looking at my friends, I think there was just a whole lot less judgment, even for myself, you know, but it also made me realize that all these moments add up and matter, you know, they all add up and matter. And that does not mean I'm going to get it right. That means I'm going to throw my heart into it and everything I have, and I'm still probably going mess it up, you know?
Speaker: And that's why the title, you cannot mess this up. That's, that's a quote from the the the lady who led me on the time travel ah guide, but it's bigger than that. It's you can't mess it up. You can't mess real life up. I mean, you're going to, but really in the overall bigger scheme of things, you're probably not going to. Yeah, because regardless, like you just said, even if we were to be like the perfect parents to our kids. Like even my daughter the other time was saying, because she takes psychology at school. It's like, oh, this whole generation of you guys all trying to be this passive parent, like this passive, this is going to totally screw kids up. You know, and I'm like, she's probably just quoting something that the teacher said at school or something. I'm like, man, like, I wonder if like this generation, if we're overcompensating for what,
Speaker: our upbringing in the 70s was, you know, it's like, oh, I don't remember my parents sitting down and playing, you know, with my dolls, yet with my children, I would end up orchestrating their things. How about you guys play this? Or how about we play this? And instead of allowing them to come up with those things themselves, but even that,
Speaker: can create traumas in our own kids by us trying to be different in the now, right? Like, right. It's like, you we can never know what the right thing is. So it's like, everybody needs a therapist at the end. of ah Oh, a hundred percent. And I didn't think I, I didn't think I need to address any of the things I addressed emotionally with myself in that book. I mean, I would, I was rock solid sure, you know, that I didn't need any of that. And, and it just, again, it like the letters have changed my perspective on everything. And I think I'm, I think I'm, I i know I'm 100% sure that I'm better for it, you know, but does that mean I didn't mess anything up? Absolutely not. You know, but it was my heart in every moment of it. 100% it's back to the empty nest or conversation. You know, I can look back and know, you know, I know what I know for sure is I did the best I could.
Speaker: you know, and I apologize for the parts I messed up. And the other thing, it's like taking ownership over your, your stuff. Like my, I had a, a suburban, uh, upbringing. You know I listened to one of your episodes with a ah gentleman this morning when I got up and, um, he was brought up in New York and his, his parents situation was, you know, he had, he was mixed race and he had a mom who, uh, you know, a teenage pregnancy and a dad who's, you know, yeah and in and a various, yeah.
Speaker: and And I, and I looked at that and thought, oh my gosh, look how simple my childhood was. But there is a cover in suburbia where, yes, it was simple. Yes, it was what everyone thinks it should be. And yes, it looked great from the outside in, and it was great, but it's okay for there have been things that,
Speaker: ah maybe didn't traumatize me, but that are, have an emotional, like it's baggage that I carry around and sharing that with the wider world is very freeing. Cause it's like, this is my stuff and I'm going to stand by it.
Speaker: And I'm not going to compare it to everyone else's stuff, but this impacted me. And I, and that's one thing about publishing a book that is really impactful. It's like, this is my stuff and I stand by it. And that's so powerful. Cause I think we live in a world where everything has to be exceptional to be ah recognizable. but But but ah ah a real human life is exceptional regardless. of is this kindnna regardless And we we need to own that and we need to celebrate each other's lives, especially our own, as an exceptional thing because it's a unique, incredible, messy, beautiful, tragic, triumphant experience. I love that. And in in this podcast, you know, it's a lot about grief and a lot of times we think that
Speaker: Life is just, should be just perfect and beautiful and no sorrow, no grief, no death. But that wouldn't be a human experience. You know, grief is part of our human experience. The messiness is part of our human experience. It is what makes us who we are, how we relate to people. And I want to, again, even go back to your letters to Dana, that for you to be writing to her, even though you did not know her, quote unquote, back then, when she was going through the hardest time in her life of her son dying, and then through his, you know, after his death, you continuing that is so amazing because
Speaker: It is probably at times in which people feel so secluded and isolated from others when they're in the midst of their grief because people that they even love and know, their own friends, don't even know what to say or how to counter interact with them. And here is this quote unquote stranger, somebody from their past, taking the time to send her these notes I I mean I have not read your book but it's like I want to even know like how that impacted Dana's Dana yeah Dana's journey in her own grief to get this right and you know I I said something about this earlier but I I
Speaker: It's so amazing to because I went from, i really felt like what could the letters do or the notes do in light of this loss that she has? you know Because I think that we think about people who we love who are grieving or know that are grieving. We think, you know we we we don't think we can do anything for them. And I think what what our story shows is that just showing up in any way consistently, you know, over time does make a difference because my letters ended up making a difference. You know, those letters, they kind of hung onto them and I could have never imagined that in a million years. But I think one, I was an outlet for Dana, which I never could have known because she told me after the fact that if she was doing life with the four daughters and the husband, all who had suffered this unthinkable loss,
Speaker: And she said, if everyone seemed like they were doing okay, and she wasn't, she would write me rather than in her own words, bring the room down. So I became an outlet and she wrote about whatever she wanted to. And again, it's back to the power of a letter because she didn't know what I was going to read it. And it really was better that she didn't really know me because she didn't have to worry about burdening me.
Speaker: And I didn't know Parker. So that was also an important element of that early part of the relationship. you know But I will tell you that that she has you know she has shared with me a lot of stuff in person now. And I think it's that trust we created in the in in the letters. And it's just a powerful thing to, and just, and I don't ever say anything. I just sit there.
Speaker: you know and i And I've told her that. like I feel bad. She's like, that's not what I – only know what to go across the room when it gets like to a certain point. like Otherwise, I just stay on my side of the room because I'm not good at it anyway. But I think just showing up and just sitting there is good, and you don't even have to say anything. That's what I've that's what i've learned from her because there are no words. I'll never say anything to Dana to make her loss any better. I mean I'm not going to make anything better, but I'm going to be her friend, and I'm going to show up. And that's what I learned.
Speaker: You know, you just said you're not, you're not good at it. No, yes, you are good at it because you're showing up being authentically you. And that's, I think right sometimes we forget. So even if you don't end up going for me, I have to touch. Right. So I'm like the moment, if I were across the room, my my own way, I have to stand up and go next to person, at least put my hand on their, on their leg or something, because that's right how I, I connect. So sometimes when I'm like, like on a phone or something, i like, Oh, I feel like I'm like, I can't. So for you to still be there and hold space for her and her grief, even across the room or across the country with a letter, just means so much because again, you're showing up being you and you are being that grief support
Speaker: you've been that get grief support and continue to be because it's a continued journey journey for your friend in that process. And I think that that is something we all, like you said, have the power of doing and and have that impact on someone else's life. Yet we sometimes don't realize that we we can't do that.
Speaker: Right. and And I know for her, i mean, I've learned so much about grief from her, but She'll get, I mean, it's been 10 years now since Parker passed away, but she'll get a note in the mail from someone and she just tells everyone, oh, well, I got a note remembering parking Parker, saying something about Parker. You know, I think it means even more after the fact that at the very beginning, you know, I, one of the key elements that happened before I started writing those letters is when we lived in Ohio, a family moved across the street from us who had just lost, she had just lost her husband suddenly. And she had two young kids, like junior high school, elementary school. And she was very open about her grief. And her son talked to me about his grief. And he was like sixth grade. And he said, you know, after dad died, he said after about four or five weeks, he said the casseroles just stopped coming.
Speaker: Like people just stopped. I know that y'all probably have covered a lot of this on your podcast, but here's a sixth grade boy telling me. you know it just stopped coming. And then that was so, yeah that's God of the universe setting me up for when Dana, when I found out about Dana, I knew one thing I could do because that kid told me I could keep sending the casseroles in the form of the cards. And I think that's One of the things that propelled me onwards was that kid's words, like the casserole just stopped coming. i was like, wait a second, I can still send a casserole. And I think that showing up after the fact over and over again is a huge impact on somebody. And then with a letter and a note, again, I have a lot of experience with this. You're not asking anyone for anything back.
Speaker: You're not. You're not. It's not a text that said read it this time. you know And so you're not asking for anything back. You're just giving. You're not asking for anything back. You probably will get something back at some point, but it gives people a chance to just soak it in, that love and that care, without having to do anything about it.
Speaker: And also there's a little piece of you out there too in the world. Because now, I don't know if you've taken pictures or copies of all the letters you've sent out. Did you? Of every letter or not? I did of the Facebook letters only because I realized from writing Dana for two years or eight months or whatever it was, I wasn't going to remember what I said. and I was afraid if people wrote me back, I wouldn't remember what they said.
Speaker: Absolutely the case when you write hundreds of letters. So I have a box with all of the letters. And then I wrote a book about it And then the book, yeah. And so the book, and and by the way, to the listeners, I did not read some of you guys know that sometimes I read the books when I'm interviewing somebody, this case, it was not the case. So if I'm asking things that are in the book, now you guys know like, wait, why is she? and And Amy knows I did not read her book. So I don't, I'm not, like it's like, wait, like as you're in a class raising your hand and trying to answer a question, it's like, wait, you did not read the book. So, so the book itself, then you have pieces of your own letters in the book, that one. Okay.
Speaker: Tell us how in the format. no Yeah. Yeah. The format is the, the beginning is, uh, you know, a deeper look into the story of reconnecting with Dana. And then it's a snippets of her Facebook posts that I've mentioned. It's snippets of our letters back and forth. And then the second half of the book is the Facebook, uh,
Speaker: project is what I call it, the Facebook letter. But I still weave me and her letters chronologically into that. But it's basically 52 very short chapters with her letters woven in and other chapters, like little snippets of letter interactions with Facebook friends that basically, line up the biggest lessons I learned from doing all the letters. So it's a quick, it's a pretty quick read. And I think it's good. I mean, that just brings up lots of, it's so relatable because of social media, but I think it does give you a lot of hope because ah a lot of other people's words are in the book, which I'm most proud of. Because I learned so much from the people I wrote who wrote me back.
Speaker: I mean, I learned so much about myself, about their perception of me, about my perception of them, about social media. So it's a great story and it's a great read because it's a great story, not because I wrote it. Yes. I love it. And because again, it includes these other people's perceptions, not just your own, like you said, it's not only you. Yeah.
Speaker: And then i I realized that I wrote so many people and this is so relatable, especially right now at this moment in time that didn't believe the same things are both the same way I do. And and I realized that once one person reaches out to another person in a way that requires sacrifice,
Speaker: like like a handwritten note, and the other person responds and in kind, really there's nothing that can disconnect us completely. but The world wants us to think that. But you know i I wrote so many people who I knew didn't agree with what I agreed with. I almost came out of the whole thing without a side anymore.
Speaker: That's how deep it was for me. But then i was like, you know, i don't really care how you voted because I care about you. Because like I care about Kendra because we went to high school together. We started out life together. And she talked me down when Larry broke up with me. But I had forgotten about all that. but when I wrote you a letter, I remembered it all, you know. And so then it was like, oh, my gosh, this there's so much hope in this because, yes, we care about what we believe in. But it doesn't give us the it doesn't have the power to say who we can and can't listen to or care about.
Speaker: It does strip away those ideas that we have when we go back to that rather than, oh, this person posted about this. So therefore this is what I think now of them because of this post, because they reposted this or they liked this. I'm like, and then it completely skews the way we view a person when they're the same, a parent struggling still with raising their kids, just as you are a parent struggling to figure out what they're going make for dinner, another, you know, or, you know, somebody having a a boss that doesn't, you know, respect that, whatever these human interactions that we have and forget, because we're so focused on the things that make us different, rather than the things that make us the same.
Speaker: You just said it all. and And they're both, you know, sameness and differences are both inherent to human nature. We're not supposed to agree with each other 100%. That's impossible, just like perfection itself. And that's what another thing social media exudes is perfection.
Speaker: you know, filtered perfection. And we forget that these are human beings that have parents with dementia and who have, you know, children that are struggling, have marriages that are struggling, have all kinds of struggles. And that's what one human reading out to another human being, even in the context of a work relationship, it gives the power back to the relationship instead of the the differences. And you said that so well.
Speaker: Yeah, no, it's so true. And it's, it we can be there for somebody else and forget of all these titles and things. And like you said, we we don't have to buy into the divisiveness that is trying to be so like shoved down our throats almost. Right, right. And then it's, yeah, we can completely go against that and just show a different, a different view of the world by just finding our, yeah.
Speaker: do you Do you think in your expert opinion that- I'm not an expert. In my humble- No, in your field, that that this divisiveness has made the grieving process even more complicated and difficult. Oh, so complicated. I cannot even like, I even did like a little solo episode because I felt, I'm like, if I were to share right now how I feel about this situation in the world,
Speaker: or this this other thing, then the other side is going to show up and be, well, how about you? Why are you sad for this? But you weren't sad for that. It's happened. I actually got reached out one time, a message. Why did you change your profile of your thing on Facebook to this, but you never did it for this other thing? And I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker: I'm like, that is not what I was trying. it is it That's we're at though. I'm sorry? I said, that's where we're at though. That's the reality. That is a reality. We can't even express even just our global concern about anything. And that creates so much like impact on our own nervous system, because of in some shapes, we feel like we're holding back from expressing our grief. And so we're kind of bottling it up because even if if I express my grief about how I feel about this situation, it might make this other person upset because they don't, it's like, what? It's like, regardless of what it is, it's grief.
Speaker: Period. Regardless of whatever happened, honor that. So if you find yourself in that, this is to the listeners, if you find yourself in that kind of duality, like how do I support somebody in their grief? Maybe even though if I don't believe in what they're grieving is what I do, that doesn't matter. They're still grieving. Support their grief. You don't need to support the why necessarily underneath it. Just the fact that they are grieving. Someone you love is grieving.
Speaker: Support them there. I think that's such an important message. And I never thought about this in the context of grief until right now, but it makes me really feel for people who are out there hurting, who feel even more isolated because of the situation we're in as a human culture. Yeah.
Speaker: So, and I think your call to people for us to care for people who are grieving, regardless of whatever they said or liked or whatever those things that we know, separate us. I mean, I think that's something I think that's an important call that everyone needs to hear. Yeah, no, and I think the same we would want somebody to be there for us as we are grieving too. So let's do that by acting, you know, acting by example.
Speaker: Amy, before we wrap up, how do people get your books? And what's the best way for them to also connect with you? Okay. Yeah. Everything about me is on my website was just amydaughters.com and that's got both books. Both books are available everywhere. So, I mean, everywhere you can get a book and, uh, I mean, clearly Amazon, I like little bookstores. So if you, if you, you know, can order through an independent bookstore, that's great, but however that works. Um, and then all my contact information and I love to connect with people. I mean, regardless of you whether you read my book or not, to me, my message is more important than the books. I mean, the books are great and that's great. I want to sell books.
Speaker: Yay for book sales. But I also want to spread this message of hope as far as I can. So my mailing address is on my website. If you write me, I'll write you back. um My email address, all those things. And I'd love to hear from anyone about anything.
Speaker: Love it. Now, I always like to make sure that the guests get the opportunity to share anything that I have not asked. So anything else you want to say to the listeners that I may have not asked or we have not talked about?
Speaker: Well, the only thing I would wrap up with, I think the favorite part of the, my favorite like storyline or the narrative of the Dear Dana story is that, you know, i did not Like you said, i said different levels of crazy or stalking whatever we want to call it, you know, but I think we all have a great idea. We're all, we all have something inside of us. That's like a great idea. Like if we just believe in o ourselves, just our own crap, just enough to take one little step forward.
Speaker: You know, I think that's when the world changes. my My gig is letter writing, and I never thought that would be the case. But all of us have something inside of us. And if we just believed it for one moment and stepped outside the box for one moment and then supported each other as we did that, I think we really could turn the tide of this whole thing. So that my only encouragement to people.
Speaker: going back to whatever our wild child had in us and the dreams that our little Amy, little Kendra had go back to that. and just share it with the world, whatever you, whatever that way is, whether. Right. Yeah. Right. And find people that'll, that'll root you on while you do it too. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Again, this was Amy Daughters author and I love your spunky humor too. You have a sense of really good sense of humor too. So thank you so much again, Amy.
Speaker: Thanks for having me, Kendra. It was, it was a delight. Thank you.
Speaker: thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
Speaker: If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
Speaker: Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
Speaker: And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.
