Transcript
Speaker: though I can still look around and objectively say like, there is a lot of joy to be found despite this hard thing. And I think that that there's a nuance to that, that people sometimes forget that joy but we what I call joy. Some people want to call it happiness, but joy is not, um, does not lack sadness or hard feelings or hard challenges. Like it doesn't, it doesn't dismiss them and it doesn't, it doesn't not include them. Like it includes them as part of the fabric of what makes you human.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. I'm your host, Kendra Rinaldi. This is a space to explore the full spectrum of grief, from the kind that comes with death to the kind that shows up in life's many transitions.
Speaker: Through stories and conversations, we remind each other that we're not alone. Your journey matters, and here we're figuring it out together. Let's dive right in to today's episode.
Speaker: Let's start with a quick disclaimer. This podcast includes personal stories and perspectives on topics like grief, health, and mental wellness. The views expressed by guests are their own and may reflect individual experiences that are not meant as medical advice.
Speaker: As the host, I hold space for diverse voices, but that does not mean I endorse every viewpoint shared. Please listen with care and take what resonates with you.
Speaker: Hello, hello. Welcome to this conversation today. Thank you so much for being here. Today I have Shabnam Ghorabi. She is an award-winning producer, best-selling author, and long-time champion of joy and meaningful storytelling.
Speaker: You know her probably from SoulPancake, which is the uplifting media company that she co-founded with Rainn Wilson, or also maybe from her current work leading the Joy Brigade and SoulBoom.
Speaker: And she spent two decades creating content that helps people navigate life with humor, heart, and purpose. And now she's also bringing... that same light into her most important accolades which is being a mom of two so welcome Shabna thank you thank you for having me Kendra I'm excited I am excited too. And for the listeners, Shabnam and I actually met so but good or somebody when we were teeny weeny little. We're not going age ourselves. We're not going age. Okay, we won't say. Just in a minute.
Speaker: We just met a minute ago when we were in college, different colleges, but in the same area. We grew up in the Baha'i community and we lived in LA at that time. And so we met in that area. time period with in our youth, in our youth, a while back in our youth, in our youth. It was just that beautiful spirit. Yeah. Just, just like a couple of years ago, a couple of years ago. So a lot has happened since. And so we will be catching up here as we chat and record this episode for you all.
Speaker: Different themes will come up. We'll just see where it goes. So I'm excited. So let's start, Shabnam. Tell us a little bit about your career, like what you do. I just said a little bit there of the accolades and also just how you got into that space. And then the we'll transition into the conversation for today.
Speaker: Sounds great. The career is the boring stuff. Least interesting thing about me. um Yeah, so I studied journalism. I was a journalism major in college. I wanted to tell stories. I wanted to change the world by telling stories. That was kind of what I wanted to do. Graduated and started working as a journalist and very quickly realized that, man,
Speaker: Journalism is really about, you know, there's an adage that says, if it bleeds, it leads. It's all about kind of like breaking hearts and um really rough reporting. And you're you're writing about people at the worst moments of their lives. And I was just like, I don't know how this is either solving the world's problems or bringing kind of light to the world. And I was at the height of kind of doing this work, five, six years of of doing journalistic work when I crossed paths through a series of funny sort circumstances and with the actor Rainn Wilson, who was starting a company called Soul Pancake, which was trying to create uplifting media.
Speaker: So I kind of pitched myself to help him build the company and you know said, hey, just give me equity and here's what I will do. and i I don't know. He took a chance on the weird Persian girl who had all the ideas. i Take a chance on me. Exactly. It was a total take a chance on me moment. And he did. and And the first couple of years, we were building kind of a social media platform, a social networking platform for people for people who wanted to explore. Life's Big Questions failed miserably.
Speaker: But about a year and a half in, we realized that the video content was outperforming on the site. And so we made a big pivot to be 100% video content. And that was really when we blew up. So it was over the course of kind of 10 years, we amassed a billion video views. I went out and did two raises. We did a bunch of TV series and documentary series. We won a bunch of awards. We did a bunch of commercial work with a bunch of big brands. And so we did all this work over 10 years. And then eventually exited. So we sold the company to a bigger film studio called Participant Media that was all about kind social impact storytelling. And then I stayed on there for about four five years, stepped down from the role to take a sabbatical. And my sabbatical started one week after the world shut down in 2020. So it was very weird timing to have my I was like, I'm going to take a year off. And then it was like the entire world was taking a year off. So was just very bizarre timing. And it was also at that time I had recently gotten married and I got pregnant and so was starting off. So the path of kind of becoming mom and decided I wanted a little bit more balance after working 60, 70, 80 hour weeks with SoulPancake, building that and selling that business. And so now today I kind of do three things. I do a lot of public speaking events. So I get I go out and keynote conferences and events for industries of all kind around joy and purpose and storytelling. I have a certification in positive psychology so I can talk about how that incorporates into our cultures and our workplaces. I also do a lot of independent producing. So I have a number of projects that are in various stages of development or actively in production. I'm doing my first feature documentary film right now, which very exciting. That one's not on there. And you do a lot of philanthropical work as well. Yeah, I'm also on a couple of nonprofit boards. And then the last thing that I do is I'm also still working with Rain. I joke that he's my forever work husband. Yeah. And we're now building a new company, a new entity called Soul Boom, which unlike Soul Pancake, even though they both have soul in the name, Soul Pancake was about kind of connecting human beings and telling stories that uplifted people. Soul Bloom is much more intentionally spiritual. It is about how do we create media and tell stories that harness ancient spiritual wisdom for our modern lives? Because we all said religion kind of is bad, and everybody threw religion out, but along with it, they threw away a lot of ancient wisdom that we need today. And we need to redefine our systems in a different way. And so how can we create media that tackles that? We're building that both as a for-profit entity with RAINN's podcast and other kind of media elements, and then also as a nonprofit that's creating kind of community-based initiatives around social and spiritual wisdom. So that's the work that I'm doing now. have a lot more balance with my kids in that way. And with all that still, it's still like a handful. I still have three jobs. I don't know. Oh, my goodness. I still can't help myself. I'm an overachiever. that's the balance The word balance, I've always struggled with that. It's really never. You really cannot have the seesaw be exactly like this. It's usually something gives her... or takes at some point, you know, it's like this, yeah, it's just ebb and flow of things and it's okay. And it's sometimes your whole focus goes into motherhood. And like when your kids are home, that is your, you know, that's your focus because you're present with them because in the morning you've worked and then you're able to do, you know, that. So it really takes a lot of comfort to mentalizing almost, right? In order to really create a little bit of that flow somewhat.
Speaker: Yeah, and i and I use the word balance, but really I i always struggled with the have it all. You know, women can have it all. We can have the career and the family. I always struggled with that phrase because I was like, I don't even know how that's possible. There's not enough time in the day, hours in the day for that. And what I've come to realize is that what when we say women can have it all, I really do think we can have it all, all but not all at the same time.
Speaker: and yeah Have your cake and eat it too. No, no, no. you yeah yeah You'll have your cake and at some point you'll eat it, right? You'll have it all. It may just not all be at the same time. So I had the window that was like all career. It was all career.
Speaker: And right now I've got a little bit more family than career and I'm okay with that. And I think that there will be a flip eventually when kids go back to school where I probably will dive more into kind of career and meaning. and purpose work for me, because I do think you you can have it all. It just really does.
Speaker: it's not It's not all at the same time. And i I've had to accept that that's okay. And that's part of what the journey of life is. I love that you're sharing that because that will take us into this kind of the part of the conversation that I also wanted to chat with, which is that you did your know or your career first and then you got married later in life, right? a little Later, quote unquote, let's put it like quote unquote. I know I'm going to have to age myself with this conversation, but I did. i didn't get married until I was 39. You know, I i didn't.
Speaker: I spent 15 years, 17 years really focused on my career and I was super successful. I mean, I knock on wood. I like, I did kill it. You know, I, I won the awards. I built the company. I sold the company. Like I, I worked my butt off to build a really great team and generated the revenue and grew the bit. Like I did all the things.
Speaker: from a career perspective to check all the boxes and get all the accolades. And then in my 30s, I very strongly felt like I'd always knew I wanted a family and kids, but in my 30s, it was suddenly like, oh, holy cow, like i I have not made this a priority at all in my life and I probably should make it a priority if I really want it. And I remember I even froze my eggs when I was 36 being like, okay, that's going to be my insurance policy.
Speaker: Fast forward, none of those eggs helped. But I froze my eggs at 36. And then I still, you know, I didn't get married until I was 39. And I remember when my husband and I were getting ready to get married, I was just like, just so you know, the minute we're married, we're starting to We're trying to have a kid because I really want kids and I don't want to miss that window. And so, so yeah, so I ended up being in a position in my forties, trying to have children, trying to give my son a sibling and, and going through,
Speaker: years and multiple rounds of IUIs, ivfs IVF rounds, egg retrievals, developing embryos, testing the embryos, and not being good quality, transferring them, having miscarriages. like It was just many, many years of that to try to get to my beautiful two babies that I have now. And I do sometimes um have a lot of you know I know grief is in the title of a podcast, but like when you were asking me, like, what are the things that I carry grief around? Like it is, it is the fact that i don't have a bigger family because i I chose to focus on my career so much of my early adulthood and there is grief.
Speaker: There is a lot of grief around not having the bigger family that want. The idea of what you're having. Even still having much gratitude about my beautiful babies, still having grief around. I just, I wish I had had a bigger family. So it's not or, right? It's and. It's the and. And that's the thing that a lot of times we don't end up embracing and in our conversations. I was even just thinking today, it's like as kids, like we would ask our kids, are you happy are you sad? Like, give it well, they what if they were both? What if they were happy and sad, right? We never, we'd always were asked one or the other. It was never and. And it was... It took therapy for me to learn two things can be true at the same time. It took years of therapy to be like, oh, right. I can feel both these things. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with me.
Speaker: At all. Like for me, it's been the fact that I've experienced grief at an early age, you know, with my sister dying. Like really, it that really got me to the end. I could be... happy and joyful and having fun with my friends and be grieving my sister. And I was 21 years old. Like, you know, so you when you met me, I had already had a sister that had died. You know, it's like, yeah, I could still be present. I could still be happy and be grieving. It wasn't one or. and that is why I titled the podcast the that way I did because of that. And you even talk about, you said ah something about grief and relief in, in when you, we were going back and forth in the conversations that there was in that way had to do with one of your first, you know, your engagement in your first, you know, that you, I did have long-term relationship when I was in my twenties and it was a really unhealthy one, very unhealthy. And, um, It took several years before we kind of broke up.
Speaker: And I remember feeling so much relief that this relationship was finally done and this toxic, abusive, unhealthy person was out of my life. And I had so much relief around that and simultaneously so much grief because I had spent all these years with this person and this person was in intertwined in my life in many ways. And so there was this element of like mourning that happened as well, even though it was a huge wash and wave of relief and, and comfort and solace to feel like free of the the unhealthy part of the relationship.
Speaker: But there was still grief and mourning. And i will say that was like the first time that I really started going to therapy because I was just like, why do I feel sadness about something? I'm so happy and relieved has happened. It's just, it was a bizarre kind of confronting of how true it is that you can feel a lot of things. And it's actually very normal and human. And You know, that is one good thing about being an older, a later in life mom is that it's very easy for me to now tell my my kids, you know, tell my son, like, yeah, you know, two things two things can be true at the same time. You can be really mad at your sister for taking your toy and also still love her. That doesn't mean that those two things aren't both true, right? like Exactly. and that and that the fact that I have that skill, I wouldn't have had that skill if I was 25 and having kids. And so I was like...
Speaker: ah With my maturity and the experiences of therapy, yes with their life that is part of the pros of you know yeah having kids when you're older. Because you could have maybe had that at 25 if you had already had certain perspectives in your life to teach you that and, right? So i sometimes yeah not it's not the time. It's more like what happens within that time. and and right Yeah, the experiences we live. Same with grief is like when people are like, oh, time heals. or That's no, it's not.
Speaker: It's not time. It's what you do with that, that you can, you know, grow and so forth and make it hurt less based on what you've done. So, yeah. so I also think grief is such a weird thing because it, I, I've never, grief is so the least linear emotion. Yes. Like, you know, like a happiness, it's like, Oh, I have a happy day. Right. Like it feels very like up and down and set, but like grief feels like it punches you out of nowhere.
Speaker: at certain moments in life and you feel like you've processed and you've dealt with it and you're moving forward and then all of a sudden you get sucker punched and I just grief is the most unlinear. It's like when you're in the ocean and it's like it's calm and you're swimming and all of a sudden this undertow just comes in like pulls you and you're like from the outside nobody knows because ah the water's coming but there's this undertow just like literally like but and you come out with like you know, sand all over your body in places you didn't even know you had. That is grief. That is grief. It just shows up and like, it's like, knock going wait down you yeah. But you know, with this, with talk about grief, you talk a lot about joy and that you said that that is one of the topics that they invite you to speak on as well. And there was one of you were doing the comparison between joy and happiness. And I love that because in Spanish, it's like contento y feliz. Contento is that contentment, right? And that joy.
Speaker: joy. Like it's this constant joy. Joy has no um shall life shelf Okay. Shelf life or something that's going to like make you be and happiness is just these things. so Talk about that because this could go even into this part of even feeling joy amidst When we're grieving. yeah Can you talk, talk about your, the whole aspect of joy, please. feel very strongly that happy, you know, when whenever we talk about like, what are the goals we have, right? Whenever people are surveyed, you ask parents what they want for their kids. It's always happiness, right? I want to be happy in my life. I want my kids to be happy. And we talk about happiness, like this elusive thing, but happiness to me is just an emotion. It's like, and it's like sadness. It's like anger, right? Like something
Speaker: triggers it, you feel it, the moment passes, and then another emotion kind of expresses itself. Joy is kind of a state of being in my perspective. You know, it's it's it's how you move through the world, how you tackle things, it's how you how you find the pockets of appreciation, even despite the hard stuff. um and that And that has honestly been, i feel like the last six years of my life, which is having to navigate intense grief and loss and sadness around the fertility side of getting to be a mom and simultaneously having so much joy that I'm actually in this chapter of my life that I wanted for so long. And like that, the both of those things are true.
Speaker: Like I feel immense joy and and fortunate that I have this opportunity, but I also have lots of grief around the family that I don't like the larger family that I wanted and how hard it was, how much money it cost, how much time it took, the toll on my body. Like all those things were real and are still real, even though I can still look around and objectively say like, there is a lot of joy to be found despite this hard,
Speaker: thing And I think that that there's a nuance to that, that people sometimes forget that joy, but or what I call joy, some people want to call it happiness, but joy is not um does not lack sadness or hard feelings or hard challenges. like it doesn't It doesn't dismiss them and it doesn't it doesn't not include them. like It includes them as part of the fabric of what makes you Human. Human. Human. Yeah. Human. That's the thing. It's like when we put something also as emotions as if something's good or bad, when we label them as that, it also makes us, like confuses us as well within the fabric of our human existence and our emotions. makes us think there's something wrong with us, right? Exactly. well Because sadness and anger are bad feelings, right? They're not. if we have those, then what's wrong with me that I'm feeling sadness and anger right now, right? But that's not, that's not true. Like we're just human beings and we have a full spectrum of emotion. It's just, what is the, you know, how do I navigate that sad feeling or that angry feeling? And like, how do I get through it? How do I navigate it? How do I find my way back to a place of contentment in the Spanish culture? Right. So how do you, how do you navigate your way through it? Because the the denying it or assigning it something negative almost makes it, yeah, it almost makes it feel like you're labeling part of yourself.
Speaker: bad. And like, what? Life's too short for that. So true. You know, the the way that you frame joy is very similar to also just the part of of gratitude for me. Like, you know, that part of gratitude and joy have kind of that similar energy behind them, that it's this underlying tone that we just have and just how we live our lives in gratitude, in joy. You know, like we live them in this manner. And therefore, when you have that as your constant, when things come, i i call like gratitude like an anchor, right? It's just literally like this anchor. and
Speaker: And things come, though you know, the ship is there, it moves, but you you're anchored in that. I would say they could even, or what would you think, like if we even tie them into the hope and faith,
Speaker: alongside these yeah joy? What would you let? Well, so I go to a scientific perspective. So I have this certification in positive psychology. So positive psychology is, you know, the study of what goes right in our brains. Right. And it didn't really exist. Right. It used to be Freud and all these people saying, well, psychology is what's wrong with us. Right. It's like why our relationships don't work and why things suck. And in the eighties was when the field of positive psychology really emerged. And what it found is that qualities like gratitude,
Speaker: qualities like having a clear sense of purpose, qualities like ah a like hopefulness, a growth mindset, right? That things can work out and I can grow and I can improve and things will get better. like These are all really strong and powerful qualities for actually rewiring the way our brains respond, right? So there's tons, I mean, so many research studies have been done about all these matrix of qualities that actually inform a positive psychological state in our brain. And so when I say joy, right, I am really talking about this science, right, which is that if you invest time in building a gratitude practice, if you really think about what is what gives my life meaning and purpose, this and you actually take action to have
Speaker: the choices you make in your life reflect that. If you have a growth mindset, if you invest in in simple shifts of thought around how to be more resilient and develop more grit in the face of challenges, like all of these things are what change our brain chemistry, right? And the science tells us that over and over again. so So when you say like gratitude is an anchor, yeah, because it actually anchors our brain to different ways of thinking, right? Like our brains are so rooted from childhood in like, you know, one one pathway, right? Like we are the road well-traveled. We're on one one one neural pathway over and over and over again. And it takes time. Are you familiar with Dr. Joe Dispenza and all that? Yes, yes. Right? So it's basically, I just went through a thing. Yeah. So you've got this neural pathway that's over and over and over repeating, right? And it takes so much work. to train our brains to find new neural pathways and connections.
Speaker: And so the work of positive psychology, the work of gratitude practices and meaning work and growth mindset and resiliency, like all these practices is what actually builds the new path neural pathways in our brains. And so I think that it's rooted in a lot of science. And when people want to say like, well, that's cool to say, like, have a more joyful attitude. I'm like, no, no. Let me tell you the science of why this works, how it works and how it completely changes your brain chemistry, because that it makes a huge difference, especially for people who come in thinking like, yeah, but I'm already kind of a cynic or I'm already negative or I'm more, more, you know, of a downer than I am. Right. Like people come in with preconceived notions of their personality and mindset and think it's unchangeable.
Speaker: And man, our brains are malleable little things and and we can change them. I remember having a conversation with my dad regarding that. was like, well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I'm like, daddy, if that were true, we would all die at 18. Like, if that were true, then what's the purpose of living if we're like no longer able to grow and new learn new tricks? That's like, oh, you're right. We're constantly able to adapt and change and grow. So that that saying little dog, new tricks. No, no, no, no, no. Throw it out the window. We are capable of change. And if we want, but the here's the key is the wanting to, because we get so attached at times with our victim and victimhood mentality. And with these again, lower values,
Speaker: not above the line type of thinking or emotions, but these emotions that kind of make us feel like yeah like a victim because they still bring us something. We're still gaining something from that, right? So how is if somebody tends to be more in the, ah, no, I like, you know, I cannot be changed. I am this way. Yes, I am this way. Like what like known? think right. But I think you're right.
Speaker: They have to want it. They want it, have to want something to change. Because you will never invest the time and energy it takes unless you want something to change. And I will say the victim mentality is, and I don't know you feel this is true of kind of your cultural background, but at least being a child of refugees, right?
Speaker: the it is kind of it is culturally and also just situationally kind of ingrained is that like we lost everything we had to start over. we were victims of the oppression of the this and it could be taken away at any minute. Right. There is this kind of like scarcity mindset with immigrants that we have to plan fight for everything, but also it could be taken away at any minute if the the world around us changes.
Speaker: And that takes a lot of time to unlearn. I mean, to this day, I struggle sometimes with like my instinctual reaction as like a child of immigrants where I'm just like, oh no, we need to like do this because the risk is too strong. And that right and so i I do feel like there there are some things that are really hard patterns to break. And and I do think that victim immigrant, like you know everything can be taken at any second. is a hard thing to break. It's a really hard thing to break. um The other thing I will say is that, you know, especially when I think about like the the emotions that we're talking about, right? When you think about victimhood, right? People often get angry. Like, I'm i'm the victim and I'm, you know, being...
Speaker: This is against me and i'm I've got enemies and the world is against me and is out to get me, right? there's this like There's this almost power that comes from feeling that anger.
Speaker: It is a lot, it is a lot scarier to be like, I'm really scared that I won't be loved. I'm really scared that I won't be accepted.
Speaker: i feel really lonely. um I have tried to make friends and it has blown up in my face, right? It is really scary to say those things. And so what feels stronger is to be angry and big and loud about the victim that you are and be aggressive about kind of being that victim. And and that can feel powerful. And it's hard to give up that feeling of power.
Speaker: That is really hard. So when you're trying to decide, like, I want to change, you also have to be willing, I think, to say, I'm willing to give up the power that comes from from being big and loud about how much of a victim I am and how angry I am about X, Y, Z, or how everyone's against me, the world is against me, the world is rigged against me, the patriarchy is rigged against right? It's way easier to feel power from that point of view than to let go of that power and say, okay, I'm just going to sit in the sadness I feel.
Speaker: around X, Y, Z. It's just a hard thing to give up. I mean, everybody wants to feel powerful. We all want to feel powerful in our own lives. And so it is an easy thing to rely on and and it's hard to undo it.
Speaker: It's hard. No. And then the, yeah, the vulnerability is seen as weakness rather than as a strength. Right. So when, when society sees you like be facing the fact that you're fearful, that you're, you know, those kinds of things, you don't want to look like that. Right. So then that's why you switch it. And that's, and that's true in marriages. I mean, I will say, you know, I, I have a, yeah I have a young marriage by comparison, right. It's, we're coming up on seven years and, Um, uh, and I will say like, it's, I've had to also unlearn like some communication styles in marriage because I do find that like, I'm not, I'm not expressing the want behind the want. I'm not expressing the need behind the need. If I get upset that there's clutter on the counter, right? Like there is a want or a need. They're supposed to read our mind. He's supposed to read the mind.
Speaker: It's like that part. There's supposed to be mind readers. You're a grown man in your forties. Like, why do you not understand what, right? Like, huh? And so the idea that we have to like really get vulnerable about the want behind the want, the message it sends us, like that's really hard to do. Even, I mean, we do it sometimes with our best friends or with a family member, but like, it's really hard even in a relationship, especially as kids get involved in it. Like, it's just like your lives get more complicated and it gives a lot harder to take the time be like, well, let me tell you what's really going on under the surface. You know, it just takes time.
Speaker: Yeah, I know it's a lot. and and it And it takes different experiences to kind of get to that point of like the learning. And especially because, again, you you're both people coming into an equation. We're both coming with your own baggage or preconceived ideas of each of your cultures. You know, you guys are the same cultural with the background. So in terms of like probably how your parents kind of parented you might be similar, you know, in some ways. But then still like everybody experiences is different, right? even Each yeah child is going to get so, but you're each coming to that and then trying to make it work. And yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it can be very complicated. like I think marriage and parenting and all that is probably the biggest learning, learning space we all have, you know, learning to communicate with the people we are are constantly with is probably. Constantly with and love the most. And, you know, it is true that I do think God gives you children that will test you.
Speaker: Because they are so much like you or push all your buttons, right? And you're just like, wow, I really needed to learn this about myself. Thank you, five-year-olds, for teaching that to me. I was like, I think patience was the virtue that I was like, reason I had kids is learn patience, you know?
Speaker: Same. will say, I always thought I was the most, I was so... I always thought I was really good at navigating challenging personalities or subpersonality. I worked with artists for 15 years and artists, God love them, have like a point of view and a creative vision and like trying to get them to like work with a budget when they have a creative, it's challenging, right?
Speaker: And so feel like I've done such a good job of navigating that my whole career. And then you're faced with a three-year-old who's like, I want to go outside. Will they put on your shoes? I don't want to put on my shoes. Well, you have to put on your shoes to go outside, but I want to go outside.
Speaker: I understand, but you have to put on your shoes to go outside. Like when you get in that cycle, you're just like, oh, I'm not anywhere near as skilled at this. As as I thought I was. You're like, yeah, I've dealt, I've dealt with 50 year old men, but telling them to put up their shoes and in quote unquote. yeah And yet I can't, get a three-year-old to put on I can't get the three-year-old who's just stubbornly sitting there crying yeah about the thing I'm telling her you can do. Just put it. Put on your shoes. I know. It's just, yeah, it is ah it is definitely a big, big thing.
Speaker: Now, question, Shabnam, because you you wanted it and you were longing to be a mom so bad and you still are longing and wishing that that you would have had a bigger family. yeah Is there grief even in the aspect, ah we already mentioned of the grieving of not look you know having that bigger family, but is is there even grief in the aspect of not being able to tend to your first babies, quote unquote, your work and your books and all these things as much now that there is this these two other beings too that you're giving your time? yeah And how do you navigate? Because I talk about that grief and it it could feel very...
Speaker: uneasy to talk about the guilt when we are within motherhood because it's it's, again, people would think that it's like if you don't care or love your kids when you're saying that I'm grieving, not, you know, certain aspects of myself. That is so real.
Speaker: Right? That is so real. It is so, so real. And I will say i i struggle with it because I've always been driven and ambitious. And I and i thought, okay I'm going to have my kids and i'm so I love them so much. They are my whole world.
Speaker: and And yet I still crave being part of a team and building a business. And I say yes to things that I probably shouldn't say yes to doing because I have this drive to do it. And I do, I do feel a lot of, I do feel, you know, one of the things that after I left participant, I had my sabbatical, I said, okay, I'm going to go back and I'm actually going to get a big job, right? I'm going to go get a big job at a big company. And I worked with a recruiter and I spent about a year and a half um having tons of conversations. I didn't go anywhere, but I also went down the path on six different roles. Like
Speaker: big roles and would have multiple rounds of interviews and then I wouldn't get it. And I got to the point where a friend told me kind of rejection is God's protection.
Speaker: And yeah, i like that like yeah a friend a friend told me rejection is God's protection. You've been rejected from these six really big jobs that you would have killed it at. And I had great references for, and I was doing big proposals to CEOs and boards and And yet I wasn't getting it. I was losing it out. And five of the six I lost to a man, which we'll talk about that another day. but But I would lose these jobs. And I had a lot of, I was upset about it. I was like, oh my God, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am at running a business. And maybe I you know maybe i thought I'd achieve some things, but maybe it wasn't actually like good enough. And I'm unhirable. And I was really struggling with kind of my sense of self and identity because that was like work was so much of who I am and what I do. And so I just, it felt like I, a whole part of my identity was lost. And then my friend was like rejection as God's protection. And I really sat with that for several months. And I just kept coming back to this phrase, rejection as God's protection. like, what is God protecting, right? Like I'm losing these big jobs. I want these big jobs. What is God protecting? And I, and I kind of came to the conclusion that what God is protecting is that I wanted a family my whole life. And I finally got the family and he's protecting my time with them.
Speaker: And so I had to kind of get to the point of accepting that even though I am sad that I didn't get the big job post-participant and I've had to kind of cobble together, as I always do, my own opportunities and my own pathways to kind of continuing to work.
Speaker: God's wisdom was to protect the time with the kids. And had I taken any of those big jobs, I would have been on the road, I would have been traveling, I would have been in meetings all day long, working much, much longer hours than I do now. And and there was probably wisdom in the universe's you know plan around that, that I had to accept, even if I didn't like it.
Speaker: You know, i that is so important because accepting doesn't mean that you're like, yee, peachy, I'm peachy. You know, you can still not like it. You know, you're touching a really important topic and it's God and spirituality. And let's talk about that aspect of spirituality because it's guided a lot of even your choices of what you've done even in your career. And a lot of times people end up compromising their spirituality, their beliefs, their values in the job, in the workspace and what they do, because that is just a lot of times what happens. And, you know, so how have you been able to bring that in, not only into your life and how spirituality and anchoring yourself and belief has anchored your personal life as well as your career? And how did you manage that
Speaker: I mean, I was very fortunate in that the second half of my career with SoulPancake and SoulBoom, SoulPancake was spiritually inspired. It wasn't a you know religious or faith-based company and our content was not at all spiritual content, but it was spiritually inspired.
Speaker: And soul boom is overtly spiritual content and overtly spiritual conversations. And so I've been lucky in that the second half of my career has allowed for that very naturally because the companies were formed in a way to say, these are the values underlying the companies.
Speaker: In the early part of my career, when I was working for media companies that had no spiritual you know ah backing, really, it just came down to how I made decisions about whatever teams I was managing or whatever groups I was working with. And I'll i'll give a couple examples. I mean, I remember one time I did, i won a very big award for an article that was about the high rate of drowning amongst black and brown kids.
Speaker: It was a two-part series. It ended up winning... essentially the Pulitzer Prize of business journalism. So it won a very big award. It got picked up by the New York Times. The American Red Cross launched a whole inner city swim program because of it. But it was a really hard article to write. Like I interviewed 60 people, many of which were parents who had lost their kids, right? And that's the worst time to be talking to someone is like you lose your child. Like that's the absolute worst time to be talking to someone. And I remember afterwards, you know, when the company was very excited that this award had gotten so many, this article had gotten so many accolades, it it gotten picked up everywhere. And they were like, oh, do you think we can call? Because there were a couple moms that were kind of the through line story pieces whose story were kind of picked up throughout the article. Do you think any of them would want to come to these events and share their stories live, blah, blah, blah. And I was like,
Speaker: i I can't ask them that. Like, this is the worst thing they've ever experienced. It took me months to build their trust just to have them talk to me about this thing. And now you want me to put them up on a stage so we get high fives. And like, I just, it just didn't sit well with me. And so it's like navigating things like that where you kind of have to like,
Speaker: assert your values and saying like, I don't feel comfortable with that. That feels like exploiting a mom in their worst moment. I'm not going to do that. And I'm not making that ask. Right. Like those are the times that you have to essentially affirm your values.
Speaker: And sometimes that means that people get mad at you, which they did. I remember my editor was like, you know, we need that. Like, this is great attention for the publication. Like we need this. We need this kind of like publicity. And i was just like, I don't care. i don't care.
Speaker: because I don't think it's right to exploit this mom. And anyway, so it's, I think it's in moments like that, that in companies where it's not necessarily important to center values and how you work, I do think it's important as an individual to set your boundaries of values and just say, I'm going to work inside this box. And if that means sometimes I have to say no to ask that feel inappropriate, then I just say no to that because it doesn't align.
Speaker: and And, you know, coming from what you were even just saying before of parents, of immigrant parents, of saying like, oh, we could lose, you know, you could lose it all or things like that, right? There's still an element of grit that even you're learning from that. You know that it is possible to start from nothing and then become. So therefore, there's that with children of immigrants, you yes, you you can be you you can do that and set your boundaries and be true at your core because actually it's what your parents did leaving the country that they did. They were true to their core because because of persecution. They had to leave, come to this country, right? Yeah.
Speaker: And still be able to flourish later on, right? So I think that it's like... It's not the end of the world. If things are taken away, you can rebuild. You can rebuild, you know, certain things like this. And so I think that knowing that kind of underlying, like not like fully knowing, let's say in your brain, but like that... ah in you also makes you strong to stand with your values in the workspace. Some people don't have those elements of perspective in their life or evidence of, i don't know. And I, ah well, I also think, you know, we fail to teach our kids values, like a strong sense of values, like just societally. I'm not saying, I'm not saying like you and i or, you know, anyone specifically, but i'm just saying, As a society, we're really good at teaching our kids the A's and B's and C's and 1's and 2's and 3's. Good teaching them at standing in line and taking turns, right? But like there's underlying values that apply there, right? Like when we are teaching kids academics, we are encouraging them to achieve excellence, right?
Speaker: to apply themselves, right? To be curious about the world. but We don't talk about the values underlying those educations. We're just like, learn your ABCs and one, two, threes, right? Or if we say take turns and you know share, we are saying adopt a spirit of generosity, right? ah right right like That's what we're doing is we're talking about a value that's underlying it, but that's all what we're teaching in school. We're just teaching, take the turn, stand in line, follow the rules, right? Like,
Speaker: We're not teaching obedience and excellence and curiosity, right? Like we're not teaching values. And so then kids get older and they're like, wait a minute, but I stood in line and now I didn't get what I want. Right. And I'm upset about it versus, you know what?
Speaker: I stood in line and I exercised my patience and maybe I didn't get what I want, but I practiced the virtue of patience. And that's what I was supposed to be practicing, not getting what I want because I followed the rules and instead mine. And I think that's that's a really hard thing that our society has not learned, which is we are not teaching the underlying values of things. And we have to end up learning them as adults, which sucks because I do think it sets us back. Do you do you think that that comes from the fact that we are kind of separating this concept of human beings being really spiritual beings and that that these underlying virtue you know virtues and that they come from the soul, right? So they're, you know, who we are. So is it that we're not incorporating them because we're like, as if we, if we acknowledge that, I don't know. Like why is it? think you and I, I think you and I probably come from a spiritual mindset where we're like, these are qualities of the soul. These are attributes that we are trying to be closer to God. right But for people who don't, Right. I don't know any parents, right? I don't know any parent who, if I ask them, do you want your kid to grow up feeling curious, aiming for excellence, being generous? They're all going to say, yes, of course I want my kid to have that. Right? But we don't have to assign it to God or to spirituality for a parent to accept that those values are important. Right.
Speaker: But that's the thing. Do you think yeah that that's the reason that we don't talk is because somehow or another, like in the school system, do they, or do they, you know, like that or whatever, that they just think that that is sign. I think that's because our system is broken. I think it's because the school system is broken and it's too focused on check these boxes of what they've learned. Yeah. As opposed to why are they learning these things and what are they're learning.
Speaker: that we are developing in these children by learning these things. That's not the orientation of any of the curriculums we built. So so our tools I think our systems are broken in that sense because they're not focused on underlying quality development. They're focused on checking boxes on a checklist for academic excellence or whatever. And it's one of the things that drives me crazy about like even, you know, my son has started kindergarten this year. And we went back to school night and they went through the checklist of all the curriculums and all the things. And all I kept thinking is like, he's in kindergarten and I don't, i heal he's going to learn his letter sounds. He already knows his letter sounds, right? Like I'm more concerned that he learns how to be empathetic with the other kids. He learns like what it means to be curious about learning, right? Like that's what I want him to get in kindergarten, but there's no conversation about that.
Speaker: in any of the classrooms. It's just, here's the curriculum we're going to follow. Here's the things they're going have to learn by the end of kindergarten. And you're just like, oh, okay. My kid's just, a you know, checklist. And that, that sucks because that's not what a human being is. Oh my gosh. That is so true. I remember the award that my son got that like made me feel the most, I think it was in first grade or something. And it was like one like that, like of the that he shared or something. And I remember like crying and I'm telling do you know proud? You
Speaker: it's you didn't get the reading award. do You got the kindness award. That's so good. For me, it was like, and I always remember when I'd leave them in the school, remember to be kind, be generous, be respectful, always reminding them the qualities that they were going to be exemplifying at school. It was not about, I didn't say get A's, you know, that but you know was always the qualities every time that they...
Speaker: you know be drop out the door yeah walk out the door. you know When I drop them off at school, that was what I would remind them and try to focus. And I think, yes, like when we also rely as parents for the education system to do our part too as parents, then then that's also, it doesn't work. I I just want the education system to reinforce it so it's not just mom. Yes.
Speaker: Right. Because they're there for a good time. Kids do tune out mom. Right. And they're there for a longer period of time than they are sometimes at home because at home they'll come and have dinner and then go to sleep. So yeah, you would want it to be like this beautiful, ba but and like again, like ah a harmony between the two, right? Of yeah what we do at home also matching what the curriculum is. So it's not just mommy saying, let's be curious. yeah Let's be kind. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that the school is also saying that. Yeah, that is true. Oh, my gosh, we could keep on going on this road. But as we're talking about kids, picking up your kids from school is part of your priority. like So Shabnam, as we wrap up, I always like to make sure and I'll we'll put all your ways of people being able to go on your website and get to see all the different things you do. And if they want to hire you for speaking at their companies or whatever, know, all the different venues that you do. But also I want to make sure that I give you the space. Is there something you'd like to make sure that you share with the audience that I have not asked you today? um
Speaker: I think I want to reiterate what we talked about a little earlier, which is that the bad feelings are not bad feelings. They're not bad and they don't make you bad. They're just feelings. And it's okay to have anger and sadness and grief.
Speaker: And those things are just part of who you are and don't assign yourself an identity. based on something you feel. And I think that's an important thing to remember just in any part of our lives.
Speaker: And reminding our kids as well. like as if you yeah And our kids. Yeah, not only ourselves, but then if we do it with our kids, then it totally can create a totally different adult than emotional intelligence. And different generation, hope, because, man, we've screwed the pooch. So hopefully these kids can figure out.
Speaker: We're trying to unscrew it. We're trying. We're trying. Oh, Shabnam, it's been a joy. I know we could probably... could have touched longer on each one of these topics, but it was just a joy exploring the concept of joy as of life in life and and grief within the space. So thank you again, Shabnam.
Speaker: Thank you, Kendra, for having me. Thank you. Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
Speaker: If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
Speaker: Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
Speaker: And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.
