Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome back to Since I Became a Mother, the podcast about the things that motherhood changes, the things no one warns you about, and where we figure out who we are becoming together. I'm your host, Taylor Rae Roman.
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to Since I Became a Mother, the podcast about the things motherhood changes, the things no one warns you about, and where we figure out who we are becoming together. I'm your host, Taylor Rae Roman, and today we're getting into a topic that honestly has taken so much of my mental space, which is the mental load of motherhood and so much more.
Speaker: I distinctly remember around Christmas, my son was seven months old um and my husband actually got like one of those screens where you can put all of your tasks and your calendar and your to-do list and your routines and everything at home because he was like, I feel like I need to help you more. And I know i kept talking him about the mental load, the mental load.
Speaker: I was experiencing postpartum anxiety, so I was really going through it, but I felt like the to-do list was never ending and I felt like trying to get the support from my partner who so wanted to support me, i just didn't really have the language for. So i really was craving the episode that you're going to get today with our guest, Leith Spear Barton. So welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to have you here. Let me do a little intro for our girl Leith today. She's currently pursuing her MA of social service. She's a New York based parent coach and fair play facilitator. She works with couples and families around the mental load, household labor, communication and relationship equity, supports couples navigating resentment, which is so real. Difficult parent dynamics, division of labor and the transition to parenthood. And she brings a practical systems based approach to creating more fairness and less friction at home. Yes, I do So many things. so you're a mother yourself. Yes. Which we love um because I feel like you've gone through it. You've been it. Going through it. Going through it. Still going through it. yeah Honestly, I think that's like so interesting to hear. i think motherhood is just such an constantly evolving. And your kids are how old Seven and ten.
Speaker: Seven and ten. And what are you kt what is motherhood currently like for you? Well, school hasn't started um for my yet. So just navigating back to school stuff right now, but also in the summer, yeah like flex schedules and um my husband's starting a new job. So it's just all of the schedules at the same time. We're a family unit. We're sharing our life together. yeah so that doesn't stop once you're past the toddler years, better or For better or worse. You know? Yeah. So something I want to jump into right away is why does resentment so often show up after baby arrives, even a ah a relationship that felt pretty equal before? And I mean, I, my son's 16 months old, so I feel like the newborn trenches were really a trench for me. They were so hard. I had postpartum anxiety, which was really just making me
Speaker: Hyper vigilant about everything and really just I was going through it girl. I really was So I felt before I had my son that me and my husband we were like really equal partners, you know and I feel really lucky that I have a great husband and i think that's why it made it even harder when I was feeling so much resentment Especially as an exclusively nursing mom He was there right by my side, but like, there's just so much that goes into it. So for the new moms that are listening that might be feeling resentment, why does that show up when the baby arrives?
Speaker: Well, I mean, you have an entirely new identity, right? You've been preparing for the child arriving. You have the nine months where you think you're kind of getting an idea of what it's going to be like. And then they're here. And it's so amazing. But everything is just totally new. And not only are you tired. You said you were dealing with postpartum anxiety.
Speaker: Everything, it's new. It's like you're in an entirely different world that you don't recognize. And that's... similar but different for your partner, right? You've gone through the birth, so you're managing that and you're exclusively breast breastfeeding, which is something that he can't really yeah help you with. um And so the resentment makes sense. um It does come and it can transform into something if you see it as a clue. something is off. This needs attention. And so what I say is when families, I mean, usually inevitably, and both partners feel this this a bit because sometimes um the partner who's not breastfeeding or just given birth is like, I want to do more and I don't know what to do. Like that can be an annoying question, but it can also be a really valid question. Like I see you doing so much and I don't know how to support you. So in that case, it's really communication, like noticing that feeling, the resentment. and using it as a clue that something needs to adjust.
Speaker: And then the communication part is kind of boring. Like yeah I suggest families having a weekly meeting where yeah it's kind of can be an airing of grievances, but it's also talking about what's going well. What did I i like that happened in the last week or last few days? What do I want to do differently for next week? But you have, you're in the headspace where you know that this is a time to discuss yeah whatever is on your mind. Yeah. I'm obsessed with the fact that you said that it's a clue. Because so much of what I heard and content I was consuming freshly postpartum was like, postpartum rage, that's just your hormones. And I was like, sure, my hormones are... are
Speaker: hormoning and doing a lot, but also like it made me feel like, oh, maybe this is just a feeling and it's not real. and I'm just like irrationally angry or like it has no real place here. So I love that you're saying it's a clue because I think that really helps to validate the feeling that something is going on. Obviously, there's so much going on because you just gave birth and that's wild, but I love that you said that. And I also love that you said to have like a set space and time, which I think is kind of the first actionable step of this episode.
Speaker: because I always try and give things that like tangibly, what can we take and do as a new mom that's going through it? Because when I would randomly just approach my husband and be like, hey, so food shopping. And he was like, girl, what? Like, we're coming out of the blue with this conversation. i was not ready for this. And what I really learned was, hey we're going to sit down. we're going to have a conversation. And same thing for me. If he was like, hey, so I got to talk to you about this and you're not ready for it. It's so jarring. So having a time to talk Yeah. Disorienting is like ah you're jarring, but like that's disorienting, right? You've been in a headspace of whether whether you're doing work or something with your child.
Speaker: And then another topic comes in. It's like, just like you said, right? What? And so that weekly meetings, some people do it even more often than that, but weekly is kind of like the sweet spot where you can talk about that boring step um that boring you know stuff. Jillian Turecki, who's like a really amazing relationship expert, love her. um But she talks about it, like how do we manage the ship of our relationship?
Speaker: Like what what is that? And so a weekly meeting is space space. Yeah, I love that. Me and my husband do, we call it chit chat night. and we're like, okay, no TV, no screens, no distractions, nothing else. We had one last night and we don't have it like, we do it every week, but kind of just randomly, it's not always the same day. So my husband came home last night. He said, I got a bottle of wine. We're having a chit chat night. I was like, love this for us. Amazing. So we had our chit chat night, kind of talked through what's going on for us, what's going on in the home. He's getting closer with our son because i feel like, especially in those early days, like he really only wanted me. We're breastfeeding. I'm with him twenty four seven So he was like, he doesn't really hug me or cuddle me as much. So they're cuddling a little more. So we talked about love that for you. Like what's going good. so yeah, I'm awesome.
Speaker: I'm a big fan of that. Yeah. So something I talked about in the beginning of this episode, and I think it's a very hot topic and something that was overtaking my brain and still does plenty of times, and even you were talking about back to school, is the mental load. What is the mental load for anyone that doesn't know? And why does so much of it tend to become invisible work that falls on mom?
Speaker: Well, that's just it. it meant The mental load is the invisible labor that defaults to someone. And um we talked about fair play a little bit. So fair play is just a really beautiful framework for the mental load, which is um and we're talking When we're talking about families, especially young families, it's the work that we do in our home to manage our home, but also to manage our life with children. So there's actually a game. And the the game is there are 100 cards. And this came from Brodsky's research that she did for her book, where she spoke with, I think it was like 500 families about what are the common tasks that are happening regularly in your life? What is it just to manage your home and what is it for your life with children? So just to give you an idea, there are a hundred cards.
Speaker: Sixty of those cards are for life with children. 60 of those. and um And so the mental load is the things that we don't talk about that somebody is like... default doing the laundry, doing the dishes, doing the meals for the children. for me it's like school lunches and things like that, that it's great. Somebody's just doing it. It needs to be done. But if you don't talk about it, then that doesn't mean that I necessarily agreed to do the school lunches or the laundry. But if you have, again, that like weekly meeting or a space to talk about it, or in the case of Fair Play, you have a framework for
Speaker: this is These are the common tasks. Who is actually doing this? So it's seen. um the mental load is when it's not seen, when it stays invisible and somebody is handling it.
Speaker: No matter if they're they're doing it flawlessly, it still can be a lot. And um Eve was so brilliant in that not only are there the cards, but there is an indicator of what it has a heavier weight there's um Those are the daily grind cards. So ah school lunches or just like meals would be one of those. It's not that you're just eating one time of day. no meals is huge. Meals are insane. So they actually break it down. i think it's by... um like who's doing weekday breakfast, who's doing weekends, who's doing weekday lunches, weekday dinners, so that it's um like more evenly distributed or has the opportunity. There are still a lot of families who are like, hey, I really enjoy cooking, so that's gonna be my thing. Or hey, I really enjoy dishes, that's gonna be my thing. So it's not that there's one way to divide it up.
Speaker: um There really isn't. it's It's deeply personal and individual. And having that weekly cadence of meetings allows you to adjust as needed. Like, hey, I've i've been doing the dishes too often.
Speaker: How about you take that over for a while or laundry or whatever it is you're talking about it so that the mental load is also like on a laptop, the tabs, so many tabs. And so if you can...
Speaker: talk about it, make the invisible visible, it really, really helps. yeah And another part of um fair play is having ownership over a task from start to finish, which is a huge part of it. If I can actually give you something and I don't have to think about anymore, then those tabs don't have to be running in the background. Yeah. I love the idea of someone completely owning a task. And I, it's so funny because I have the Fair Play deck and I gave it to my husband for Christmas, which is in the beginning of this episode, I distinctly remember it was around that time that I was like, oh, my brain's gonna explode. And so I got Fair Play, I gave it to him and still haven't opened it because i was like,
Speaker: Someday we're gonna do this and we will. But I remember listening to another podcast talking about Fair Play and I was like, okay, we need that. And I think for me, because I knew some of what I was feeling was really exacerbated by my postpartum anxiety,
Speaker: That's kind of why I was like, okay, let's pause on this. I need to just like focus on what's going on with me right now. But I'm so excited to get into that as more of a tool because just the entire idea of making the invisible visible.
Speaker: i mean, that's amazing. I think that's what that's kind of like the first step in lessening the mental load. 100% is. Yeah. um so how Along with, I mean, you kind of talked about it with the cards, but how do couples really get out of the just tell me what you need dynamic? Because just tell me what you need is still putting that mental load on the one person who is telling the other person what they need. The other person isn't owning that task completely. So aside from getting into these cards, like what are the ways that you even get out of that dynamic?
Speaker: I think explaining what we're even talking about here. This is the mental load and it's a trendy word, but it's also a really real thing. yeah So when we have conversations as people in general, we want to have a conversation to try to understand one another. and um A lot of times when these kind of like fair play or domestic labor conversations begin, one partner can become defensive and that really shuts it down. yeah So the common refrain, which is just tell me what you need, like I'm i'm ready to help.
Speaker: When you talk about the cognitive labor required to do that, It takes a slowing down because a lot of times the partners are just not even aware of it. They really think that it's helpful. um If you slow it down and say, hey, if you ask me for a list, I have to stop and make a list.
Speaker: And I'm already feeling like it's a lot for me. So i may not be able to do it right now, but hopefully I'm you know doing another plug for those weekly meetings because you can slow things down in that space where the partner who's asking to help is heard. Like I hear you wanting to help me. It's actually not helpful for you to ask me for a list.
Speaker: And here's why. It's more work for me. let's outline what are the common tasks that need to be done in our home and divide it up this way. And that really is like, you kind of have to work backwards because when the labor has become invisible, which is so common for all of us, we just kind of do things on default. Then the other person isn't seeing it done or isn't familiar with the task. And there's a lot of socialization, how we're socialized as women, how we're socialized as men in there. So some of it is that, um,
Speaker: in our heteronormative relationships, it's just gent like not being seen. and um And so if you can think of it in a way that it's not, um that they're just trying to do less, that they,
Speaker: want to help whoever the partner is who's seeking to participate, but they just don't know where to start. And I should say with those cards, they can be overwhelming, right? Seeing a hundred tasks. So what I will suggest is you just take one.
Speaker: What is feeling the heaviest for you right now? You could narrow down to a few things and then try to get that one thing. yeah So just focus on the one thing and how can that one thing be outlined in your home? What does it look like? When I talk about laundry, it's kind of crazy how many parts to laundry there actually are. So many.
Speaker: So many, because you say laundry, it's okay, you know what I'm talking about. But actually, it's sorting first fabrics. Like, what kind of, how does this need to be washed? What detergent does it need? Do we have the detergent in our home? Who got the detergent? um Does it go in the washing machine? Does it need to be done by hand? I try to minimize how much hand wash I have, but... um What is the setting? Is it on cold? Is it on hot? Is it on warm? And then does it go into the dryer? I mean, there are so many steps. and I'm not even getting to whether it's folded or where it lands. Absolutely. There are really so many steps with laundry. It's insane. I remember...
Speaker: whatever podcast, I'll put it in the show notes, whichever podcast where I originally heard Fair Play, because I don't remember at this moment, but I'll put in the show notes for you guys, um because I think it was one of my friend's podcasts. And ah they talked about diaper changes. And it was like, what size is the baby?
Speaker: Then you have to order the diapers. do you have a subscription or do you need to order them? Do you need to go out and buy them? What about the wipes? Then we're talking about, are they still getting changed on a changing table? Are we changing them somewhere else? And is there diaper cream? And then does it go in a diaper, like, ah what are they called? Not a caddy, like where you throw out the diapers. Diaper pail. A diaper pail. Yeah. Does it go in the diaper pail? Our diaper pail, we have like two different kinds of deodorizers in there. Then you have the liner or like the garbage bag for it. And how often is that getting thrown out? Are you airing out the diaper pail in between? Like that's just diaper changes, babe. Never mind the million other tasks that have so many parts. And laundry is a great example too because it's everything from ordering laundry tablets or de detergent, whatever you use, all the way down to putting it away.
Speaker: And like in our house... we have a subscription that it comes automatically. And then all of our drawers, we have labels. My clothes, my husband's clothes, my son's clothes. smart So that way anyone can put away everyone's laundry. so whoever's doing laundry has to put away everyone's laundry. That like is the the requirement. You must put away all of it. Because when my husband would fold the laundry and then leave it out, I was like, I'm going to have a mental breakdown. Because first of all, what even is this? Like now I need to unfold it because like I don't even know what this is.
Speaker: No. So now everyone, you have to put away everything. um But yeah, so many of these tasks have one million steps that you don't even, unless you own that task. yeah you And sometimes even if you own it, once you verbalize it, you're like, I'm doing all of that.
Speaker: Right. It's reverse engineering. Yeah. Like you have a system thinking of how. But we have to get to that. Exactly. Yeah. yeah We have to get to that system. Okay. So I think that's a super helpful first step. And I love that you said, maybe you just take one card or maybe, you know, if you don't have those cards, maybe you just take one task and you say meals. Meals for me was where I put a lot of my anxiety being freshly postpartum.
Speaker: I thought that I had thought about it. We had things frozen. We had some meal delivery. we had We, you know, friends sent us Uber Eats cards and I was like, okay, yeah, we'll be fine. But for me, i would think about, well, what's this week's food shopping list? But then what are we going eat next week? And then what are we go to eat the following week? Because you have to eat forever.
Speaker: And that... Broke my brain. um So thinking about like, okay, how do I make this less overwhelming? Because meals, meals is crazy. it is. Meals is totally crazy. Yes.
Speaker: You have to eat forever? That's crazy. What? Yeah. Meals is crazy. um But back to like some of these actionable steps. I want to get into what are some signs that a couple's division of labor is becoming unhealthy or unsustainable. And right in the beginning, you were talking about that resentment and that feeling might be a clue.
Speaker: But what is really like, let's say you're feeling a little bit of resentment or, you know, there's an inkling that things are not feeling equal. i know for me, getting so much content about and hearing about the mental load was almost exacerbating it for me because it started making me more angry. And then maybe my husband would be trying to help, but...
Speaker: it wasn't the way I wanted. so like, let's say he was like, I'll cook dinner tonight, but I was like, oh, but that's not the way I would do it. And it felt like almost, even if he was trying to help, it wasn't the way I wanted. so What are really the signs that, okay, this is an issue?
Speaker: And what are some of the ways that maybe we can tell, okay, this is something that this isn't this isn't going well. We really need to like step in and have those meetings or like things are not good.
Speaker: Yeah, it's ah it's a great question. I think that the meetings are helpful if things are going well or if they're not going No matter what. No matter what. yeah Across the board, having that check-in because as we started the conversation with, things change so much minute to minute. You're in the infant stage and then you're in the toddler stage and then you have school-age children. And so things are always changing if it's just the situation.
Speaker: size of the diapers yeah or the size of the clothes. And so just having that check-in helps to get ahead of any resentment that might be building. um Honestly, it's hard to say that in the moment when yeah when one feels the resentment, I certainly do. i have times A lot of times it's not helpful to to bring it up in the moment to just save it and have a place where you're writing notes and keeping a record of it. And that's not to say to to bottle it up. ah Definitely not. You could even say, I'm really irritated about this. We need to change the way this is. I'm looking forward to talking about this at the meeting and not in like a a mean way, just like.
Speaker: Something needs to change. It's a little bit off. and um And so that's those weekly meetings, weekly meetings, weekly meetings. But um when I meet with couples, like they're coming to see me because things are really off yeah often. Like if you're hiring an outside person to support you. And so in that in those cases, it's it's triage. what What are the top things that are really, really feeling off? Is meals usually a top thing?
Speaker: Meals is is so challenging. Because meals breaks my brain, that's why. Yeah, and especially with um different preferences and from our family of origins, how how did the division look like? What did it look like for um us growing up? um What kind of foods do we like? In my household, it's like I, my children and I have similar tastes, but my husband, very different tastes. And so that's a constant conversation where it's almost like I'll offer things that I enjoy to him. i am I'm a more adventurous eater, I think a little, a little bit. And he'll try and he'll be like, huh? you know, this is okay. Not for me, but my children love it. So then that's a tricky spot where it's like three out of four. And so- What do you do? um My husband ends up having um his own like meals or like a compliment to the meal that works for him. And i think a lot of people will hear that and think of children having their own meals, but for him, he's an adult and he can do that. yeah ive
Speaker: For children, the conversation looks a little bit different. I will actually suggest that It's one meal for the whole family so that when the children are able to participate in mealtime, hopefully they're having something that you know that they like and then trying other foods. and But mealtime is big is a big But um a lot of it is...
Speaker: comes from the parents and what they're comfortable with. So that's why you have to kind of get on the same page. For us, we go into it knowing that mealtime is gonna be a conversation. and um Because I think all of my friends that are moms are like, we are I mean, especially, obviously I'm talking about this based on my perspective, right? I'm a woman, I'm a mom, and I'm married to a man and, you know, in a heteronor relationship heteronormative relationship. But a lot of my mom friends are like, we have to cook forever. And I definitely do have friends, too, that their husband is the primary, you know, cook in their home. And, you know, that 100% exists as well. But I know meals is something that I just can't believe is forever. So that's why. That's like ah something of that I should add to. My my husband actually does like like to cook. So he he's he's one of them. But we try to share it.
Speaker: But the meals, especially in the postpartum period, is where some coaches will say, hey dad, if it's mom, dad, or partner, you have meals. yeah You have meals and you can talk about what that looks like, but that right there is something that you can do if you're not breastfeeding, if you didn't just give birth, you can help with meals. yeah And so talking about nutritional needs, preferences, and when that goes to the larger family, that's a values conversation too, which we haven't touched on.
Speaker: what are our individual values and what are our shared values and how can we find a place where we meet where again with chores it's not 50 50 it's probably not going to be 50. My next question was about 50 50. So honestly no let's get it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's never 50 50 50 doesn't 50 doesn't exist. Yeah. But um But when you talk about values, like what's really important to me, like what is my deal breaker kind of thing, it's going to be different for each of us. And so when you come to it as people, like this is really important to me, then you can see one or trump one each other more clearly. And you had talked with the last question about preferences for doing things. And that is a space for letting go a little bit, as long as it's not like,
Speaker: compromising nutritional needs for your every night or values and and when we're talking about meals, but there is, um it's kind of like a dance.
Speaker: It's not, I had to learn this too because I very much felt like there is one way to fold the laundry. There is one way to do this and I learned way later than I should have that no, there are multiple ways. This task will get done. And if it's not being done exactly the way that I see it, that's okay. There is a letting go that is helpful to have too. this um Tiffany Dufu wrote a book, Drop the Ball, which was my first introduction when my son, my first child was ah a toddler, that I saw these conversations of what um gender equity at home look like. And so,
Speaker: along with her title, Drop the Ball, there were things that she she had ah an Excel spreadsheet of the common tasks. This was before Fair Play. Of the tasks that were required in their home, and she and her husband met about it, met and talked about it regularly.
Speaker: But if one of them had the task... they really owned it to the point where she she shared a story of how he was working abroad for a few months at a time and his his task was mail. And so she just didn't check the mail and she's like, well, that's okay. Whatever happens will happen, but it's his task. So Tiffany is amazing, by the way, another person for you to hopefully meet with them one day. She now runs the Tory Burch Foundation, but um I do this funny thing where if I read a book and I like it, I will write to the author. So I wrote Tiffany. Wait, love that. I'm obsessed with that. Yes. Did you respond? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And um yeah, she's she's an amazing woman. She started something called The Crew before going to Tory Burch. And it was like a women's... um
Speaker: like networking group where you were assigned with 10 women. And so this was before the pandemic and she invited me after I wrote to her to be in one of those with the crews. And it was really a great networking experience. And it kind of held us through the pandemic with small businesses and stuff. So Tiffany is one to know, but she, with the drop the ball, she started something where the wheels started turning for me. And then um fair play gives a really elegant framework that expands on the idea of Excel spreadsheet. But of course it's however it works for you. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, i that's funny because actually one of the guests that I had for an earlier episode on breastfeeding, I read her book on breastfeeding. I was obsessed with it. I attribute it to Dr. Linda Dahl to so much of my success. I mean, I'm still breastfeeding at 16 months and she was a guest and I was like fangirling so hard because I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. Like i took your book out of the library and now you're here like meeting an author is so fun. I love it. Um, okay. So we talked a little bit about values. Do you have anything? I mean, I think that's like such a huge topic and that honestly wasn't even one my questions going into this, but hearing you talk about it, I think also because my son is littler right now, I'm kind of still in like the...
Speaker: basic needs met era of our life. Like, I'm just starting to get to some of the bigger things. Like, for example, talking to him about, like, religion and, like, these are things that me and my husband, yeah, we did touch on. We knew that we had, like, shared religious values, for example, and, like, we wanted to share that with our son. But i haven't gotten into, like, so many big things because he's just a little tiny guy. So what should we even be thinking about when we're thinking about shared values and how we bring that into the conversation?
Speaker: Yeah, that's ah that's a great thing to think about in what developmental stage is appropriate for a 16 month old. And so a lot of that right now looks like in what is your daily rhythm like? Because that's the thing that he experiences the most.
Speaker: What happens when I wake up in the morning? What happens throughout my day? i love the idea of a balance between um active times and passive times where you're out in the world. But is that being balanced by times at home? But that's, of course, in alignment with whatever your personal values are. And so I would say at that age and stage, it's...
Speaker: how you're living your life, what your rhythms look like. And that continues as as children age, but there's so much that's in how we show up in the world yeah that shows our values rather than giving a ah list.
Speaker: Yeah, because you even said, like, preferences. And I think about when I am spending, like, a huge chunk of the day with my son, which is often, I will be like, okay, we're gonna to class. We're going to go to the park and do this and that for my husband He loves taking my son on runs with him So he puts him in the running stroller and he goes and runs and then they stop at parks when they're on the way and for me Initially, I was like all you ever do with him is go for runs and he was like he loves it and to me I'm like are you reading enough books to him? but
Speaker: I read a million books to him. Like there's there. i think it's really was very easy for me to be like, I want you to literally just do ex exact everything same way that I do it. But you're a different person. You're bringing different vibes. You're a different parent. You bring a different perspective. I had different things I did with each of my parents. And like that was awesome for me as a kid. Like if both my parents were exactly the same.
Speaker: that would have been a completely different childhood. So I really have tried to sit back and be like, okay, as long as you're not doing something I hate, like you're not, you know, we try to really minimize screen time, for example, that's like one of our values in our house and like something that we try and focus on. so I'm like, okay, he's not sitting him in front of the TV and being like, bye for, you know, three hours when I'm not home.
Speaker: i got to let you be free and do what you want. as and as the other parent in this dynamic. So i think that's a huge part of trying to navigate new parenthood. Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah, i totally agree with that. And it's it's a beautiful thing you're... As I'm finding out. Yeah, you're two you're two people and you bring different things to it. And um and the the runs and going to the parks sound really great. And i I started my interest in parenting um from an approach called RIE, Resources for Infant e Educators, ah founded by someone named Magda Gerber in the 1970s. But you mentioned going to the library. I went to the library and I got her book, and there was like a seven most popular styles of parenting at the time. And I took out a book, um Baby Knows Best, by Deborah Carla Solomon, who I also wrote, too. Did you respond? um Yeah. Yeah, she did. She did. And I was like, you had love this approach. You've had much success with your responses. I'm telling you. You know, right to write to author if it's something that moves you. yeah And so I told Debra, like, how up that I had, I mean, my son was like four or five months old at the time. gosh. And it was one of the first, like, non, like, birth related things. But she she wrote back and was like, you're in New York. You could go to one of these um classes. But the reason I mentioned that is because there's so much foundational information
Speaker: things that happen in the rhythms that we establish when they're very young and how we interact with them. But this approach in particular is about doing less and enjoying more yeah and not feeling like you have to entertain your child or children because you you don't. Your presence is so important. yeah and um And so that's that's a great place, like whether 16 months for me, seven, 10, just keeps going. And I'm amazed to see that, um that, that perspective just like being present is what matters most.
Speaker: What? So I feel like we've talked about a lot of ways that you can have these conversations with your partner, have these meetings with your partner. What do you i mean, I'm assuming it is less often that you meet with a family that has a resistant partner because if they brought you in, but maybe you have. I'm wondering, like, what do we do when your partner is resistant, when you're feeling I'm overwhelmed, I'm stretched too thin, you know, the mental load is a million pounds. and
Speaker: I need help and your partner is really not seeming to meet you because I do get, you know, I share my my life, some of it online and talk about my my husband and i do get messages all the time from moms being like, my partner's really not doing this. And especially new moms I feel like are so vulnerable. I'm not going to be like,
Speaker: Well, your partner sucks. That's not helpful. You know, like, and I think a lot of times if we go to our friends, if we go to our family, they might just be like, well, they should be helping you more. OK, but what can I do?
Speaker: Like what? This is who I'm spending my life with right now. This is, you know, my child's other parent. what do What do we say to, you know, someone experiencing that? Yeah, ah the spending our life together, the phrase that I use is where we're sharing our life together. And sometimes just going to the partner who's resistant or just not seeing it, saying like, hey, we are spending our life together. We are sharing our life together. And right now this particular thing feels heavy and i need some support. And
Speaker: A challenging part of it is whether the partner can't or won't doesn't really matter. It's not happening. So ideally, you can get in place those regular conversations where it can be discussed, not in the heat of the moment, but in a we're managing the ship of our relationship. This is just a like this is a ah planning meeting. um But if it if it doesn't happen, then there is There is like an acceptance that needs to happen of the state that you're in and how can you get support? Can you get support in other ways? And that can be really hard for families, but you can't make someone do something. You can...
Speaker: have conversations and try to open it up to curiosity and say like I'm just hoping you can listen and hear me and Sometimes it requires Trying to figure out saying things a little bit differently, but also not I mean that's a lot of cognitive cognitive emotional labor that um that often falls on like women in relationships but um that's that's one where sometimes it is accepting, even if it's just in this moment. yeah Like um I mentioned my husband's starting a ah new job next week. So in this moment, when he's starting new job, he will be able to do a little bit less. So things will look different for a period of time. But just as long as we're having the conversation and making sure that things aren't just left forever, which happens. I've met with families who are like, actually, like we set things up really early on, right after I had...
Speaker: My child. And now it's two years later and the division of labor hasn't changed. Yeah. And we didn't even realize that that much has passed. And it's feeling heavy for me. In this case, it was a family um expecting their second child. And they're like, we want to get ahead of this. But we didn't even realize...
Speaker: That were where we were, which is a really big part of it. So if you have those regular check-ins, what i try to have families do is take the emotion out of it. Because a lot of this is just like dishes don't need to be emotional. They just need to get done. Yeah. So if we can take the emotion out of it, which is what fair play can do with the cards. Like you look at these cards and you're like, this is actually kind of silly when I look at the heart of it. It's just a task. It's morally neutral. It's...
Speaker: just dishes or laundry. I love that you said it's morally neutral because that's something that my therapist tells me all the time. He's like, you don't need to moralize that because like, that's not good or bad. It's just like a thing. So credit Casey Davis, by the way, she is like awesome. And she has a great book. It's um how to keep house while drowning, which is,
Speaker: Really system guys. I'm gonna put all of these in the show. Yes, I promise because I love we have so many books book recommendation um But it but it is true. It's morally neutral and it took me hearing her say those words actually it's to be like yeah Yeah, this is just something that needs to get done Yeah. um But i I really appreciate that you said you can't make someone do something that they don't, that they're not going to do and that there is an acceptance around that. And at the end of the day especially as a new mom, you might be just trying to have that moment where you accept it and you get through to, you know, a time where you don't feel like you're drowning while trying to keep house as yeah the title of that book is. But yeah, you can't really make someone do something if they're not going to meet you. yeah And that is hard and that is tough. So yeah definitely something to think about if you're feeling like your partner isn't able to meet you.
Speaker: Kind of. so I have some recurring questions that I'm going to ask you that I ask all of my guests. But before we get to that, I kind of just want to go to our last question. moment to really think about some actionable steps which is for the mom listening who feels like she's doing everything what are some tools that she could lean into i think we have that weekly meeting um i think we have what are some maybe two other ones you might have even mentioned already so picking up One. Yeah. Starting with one. Starting with one um
Speaker: You can make that laundry list of however many things it is, but picking one. Yeah. Especially if you haven't been having regular meetings and you're kind of starting from scratch, just doing that one and get that one to the point where it's fully offloaded for the partner who has more on their plate.
Speaker: It's fully, it may take weeks, to be honest with you. It may take weeks. Sometimes it takes a while to, if it was laundry in the case of that, like however many steps you have for your laundry, it's different for everyone, but, um, it can take time. So having patience and realizing, and moving through past the frustration of your partner, not knowing this thing or not knowing how to do it the way that you want to do it. It's, um,
Speaker: they're learning something new in a lot of cases. So it takes time, yeah especially for them to own the task 100%. So just starting with that one thing. Yeah, starting with the one thing. So weekly meetings, starting with that one thing. And then I will say, try to have fun together. Whoa. Try to have fun together because you can get stuck in this keeping young children alive thing. You're just in survival. And so if you forget that, like we chose one another, we're spending, we're sharing our life together. and so how can we...
Speaker: make it light again. And that's why I do like the fair play game because it's making it a game and trying to take that emotion out of it. yeah um But keeping play in there, even if it's something small, I love what you were saying that you had last night. Your chit chat yeah you're chich hot night. That's great. Sometimes for me, it's just like we...
Speaker: We have a DVD player, we old school like that. And we'll get like DVDs from the library or i watch a movie on you know demand or whatever. love, honestly, i have so many movies that I'm like, what if this movie is no longer available on streaming? like I low-key do need a DVD player. So honestly, you're not wrong. I have so many like Christmas movies, like the little claymation ones. Those my jam. And I'm like, what if they don't exist anymore? Like I need them on DVD. So you're inspiring me. Okay.
Speaker: I want to close us out with some questions that I ask all of my guests, which the first one is, since you became a mother, what do you understand about motherhood now that you didn't before?
Speaker: The first thing that's coming to mind is that there's like, I don't own the one way to do this. I really don't. And there are so many gems that especially um i bring in my partner. some I think through Instagram, I've invited my husband to come in and share some of his relationship wisdom. And he has many, many gems. So not thinking that I own the one way of whatever it it it is, even if it's laundry or dishes. but Yeah, i love that. Yeah.
Speaker: What is something that mothers especially worry about that you wish they would give themselves permission to stop worrying about? Definitely the entertaining our children. That was a huge weight lifted off of me. um Baby knows best. um When my son was four or five months old, I read this and I was like, this really resonates with me. And I, really,
Speaker: love the idea that it's about my presence. And you can't be fully present 100% of the time, but it's carving out those moments where it's just the two of you or the three of you. And um the do less, enjoy more is is all like top, top, top, to top of the list. Yeah. Yeah. Lastly, what would you say to the mother listening right now who feels like she's the only one struggling with today's topic?
Speaker: You are not alone. You are very much not alone. And um it's the communication part that when we feel the alone, then we tend to isolate and just think, it's just me.
Speaker: i just need to do this differently or I need to say this differently. But just having the conversation, how clunky it may be in the beginning, it helps because you're definitely not alone. We're two people talking about this. And even though my children are seven and 10 going into the future, this will still be a conversation, whether it's you have adult children and they're out of the house. If you're managing your home with somebody, it will still be a conversation. so um Yeah, talking about it really helps. Yeah. Even if it's awkward and uncomfortable. Yeah.
Speaker: And as always, you're not alone. you and i feel like that's what almost every single person says because you're not alone and we're all figuring it out. Thank you so much for all of the gems today. i'm going to be taking this back. I'm going to open up my deck of Fair Play cards. I love that. This week, for sure um Thank you guys so much for listening. Again, please share this with a mom friend who is going through it to because as i feel like these are the tips we all need. and I'll see you in the next one.
Speaker: Thanks so much for listening. if you loved this episode, if something resonated with you, if you learned something that you think is interesting or amazing, make sure you share this with another mom that you know.
Speaker: All of the links for today's episode will be in the show notes, my social channels, any info about our guests, any links, products, or resources that we mentioned will all be there for you. I hope to see you in the next one released every Tuesday.
Speaker: Before I was a mother, barely noticed mothers and now they're all see. see you.
