Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to Since I Became a Mother, the podcast about the things that motherhood changes, the things no one warns you about, and where we figure out who we are becoming together. I'm your host, Taylor Rae Roman.
Speaker: Hello, and know welcome back to Since I Became a Mother, the podcast about the things motherhood changes, the things no one warns you about, and where we figure out who we are becoming together. I'm your girl, Taylor Rae Roman, and today's episode is so close to my heart because...
Speaker: Focusing on baby sleep was my hobby, my mission, my priority, my side quest, my side hustle, my entire personality for a good 10 months of my son's life. I, you know, i go back and forth between was he a good sleeper and I was the problem or was he the worst sleeper on earth? I don't know, I can't answer that for you. What I can say is my son didn't start sleeping through the night till he was nine and a half months, eight and a half months. And for some people, that's really late. For some people, they're like, babe, that sounds amazing. My child's five and they're still not sleeping, right? But for me, it broke my brain. It broke my soul. It broke my spirit. And I realized that like my mental health was the best gift I could give my son. and I really needed to figure out what can I do to try and make this better? Thank the heavens. We eventually got there. We are sleeping. It healed my soul and my brain. And I really think contributed to healing my postpartum depression, which I was going through it. You probably know by now. Um, but I wish i had this episode that I'm bringing to you guys with Ella Grace when I was really in the trenches because it would have really helped me feel less alone and helped me really understand that this was just a season. So Ella, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. you for having me. I'm thrilled.
Speaker: I'm so excited to get into it. Before we go through all the details, let me just talk about my girl, Ella Grace, really quick. So Ella is a pediatric sleep specialist and certified sleep consultant, the founder of Ella Grace Sleep Solutions.
Speaker: She's a postpartum doula and newborn care specialist with a feeding and lactation support background, which we love. And she's New York based and works directly with families. So she is in it seeing firsthand what the mothers and the fathers and the families are going through in real time. So, Ella, I'm so excited to talk to you. so excited. I know I don't have lean forward. Yeah.
Speaker: I'm so excited that you're here. um One of my BFFs has worked with you and that is how I found you and I know she was also going through it because not sleeping is so hard.
Speaker: It's so hard. The first thing i kind of want to touch on is that you support families with newborns and you're a mother yourself, which we love. You were working with families before you became a mom. Oh, But what actually did you learn once you became a mom about sleep deprivation that like your professional experience maybe didn't tell you? Like once you were actually in it, how did you view it differently?
Speaker: I mean, nothing can prepare you for postpartum. After having a baby, remember crying to my mom and saying, like, nobody told me going to be this hard. She's like, yeah, if we told you, like, you know, nobody would have babies. I was totally shook to my core how hard it was for me. You're speaking my language, girl. I worked with babies years.
Speaker: And my cousin as well, she's also a postpartum doula, a pediatric sleep specialist. Both her and I just got hit. Like, we went down. we went down. so that There's, I mean, there's nothing. all the All the training, all the experience in the world does not prepare you for your own baby. Like the way your body reacts when your baby cries is so different than when I'm at work.
Speaker: I hear the baby cry. I can come in with so much calm energy, help the mom calm down, help the baby calm down. It's like when my son's crying and, you know, we're trying to get home and he's in the stroller. I'm sweating. Like I'm leaking. It's like there's nothing that prepares you for that.
Speaker: Oh my God. I love to hear it. I would think like if I just... knew more or prepared more. This wouldn't be rocking my brain so hard, but it's so good to know. And for all you moms listening, we got a professional. Okay. We have an expert. down It's so hard in general. Postpartum sent me to outer space um because I was like, ah what?
Speaker: This is insane. What do you mean? huh Crazy. Absolutely insane. I was like, huh? Girl, what? What is this? um But especially that sleep part. so even though I hate that for you, I love to hear that you were also going through it. Yeah. First thing I want to talk about is just like, what should new parents understand about what normal, in quotations, newborn and infant sleep actually looks like?
Speaker: I think we have a very warped, unrealistic or just like from one side of the spectrum to the other. Like either you come in being like, I'm never going to sleep again. Or you come in being like, oh, I saw all these TikToks with newborns sleeping through the night. So if I do this, this and this, yeah my baby's going to sleep.
Speaker: What would you say is normal? Is there a normal situation? What's the T on newborn sleep? Okay. So yeah when I think newborn, I think like first, let's say first three months. I mean, when you have a baby, they come womb to world. Like I almost think of them as like, i mean, they are, right? So I think of them, they're baby mammals, right? Like they are not really full humans yet. They are eating and sleeping on crazy short cycles. Your job is to care for them, feed them. Their job is to grow and like be nurtured and settled.
Speaker: And everything happens on such a short cycle. Yes, they sleep a ton, but it's not on our schedule. Right. It's like throughout the day, throughout the day, little chunks at night. um Newborn sleep is by nature exhausting. Right. Their tummies are tiny. You are getting up to feed them throughout the night. You're also ah as a mom recovering from labor. Like you've just carried a baby for nine months. Like you are so just depleted by nature. And then you have a baby who needs so much and you cannot fight the biology of a baby needing to, you know, needing to be soothed throughout the night and fed throughout the night. So it's just like exhausting by nature.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. i feel like I didn't understand that that was normal when I was first going into it. I feel really lucky in that my son would tolerate the bassinet. I could put him down in it. Obviously, he was like a asleep. He wasn't like drowsy but awake like at all. He was dead asleep when I would put him down. But he would like be able to be in there for a little bit. yeah But I was really looking for... like I remember what was so upsetting to me, actually, is we went to his first pediatrician appointment. yeah Love my pediatrician, so not her. But my pediatrician and my OB b are actually in the same like hallway. Easy. Yeah. So an OB from like the practice who actually did like see me at the hospital when I was like recovering. She was like had visited me. um She was like, oh, my God, how are you guys doing? So I'd been out of hospital, what, three days, four days um since giving birth. And she was like, are you guys sleeping? And I was like, yeah, we're doing like maybe six or seven hours a night in like chunks, like chunks. But like, that's pretty good. Like we're doing like three hours, then three hours, like another hour. And she was like, yeah, but that's fragmented sleep. That's not that good.
Speaker: okay, babe, I'm trying to be positive and you're a demon for telling me that. And like, i mean, just factually, like, yeah, I mean, that yeah, you yeah. Just factually, what was happening is like totally correct. Yeah. For your baby biologically, those wakings need to happen for them to grow. Right. yeah And I was like, yeah, you're super mean for being like, oh, it's fragmented. You don't think I know it's fragmented, girl? Yeah. So I love to hear that's normal. Yeah.
Speaker: by nor By nature. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. It didn't love it at the time, but love to hear it. um So chronic sleep deprivation, just like anecdotally from your experience, what do you feel like that does to a mom emotionally, mentally? Where are these moms at? I feel like by the time they hit you up and they're like, hey, Ella, I need help. i would imagine they're probably going through it.
Speaker: Yeah, so we'll put, like, now we'll put, we'll move away from newborn sleep and we'll talk about, like, five months and older because I really like to separate that so people can understand. So five months and older. I mean, sleep is fundamental for emotional regulation. So by the time people are many months out and haven't, you know, and aren't sleeping, aren't sleeping well, like, Their ability to regulate their emotions are very difficult. You know, they're typically the relationships with their partner are difficult because they're having like less joy, less patience, less positive emotions. um And also sleep deprivation long term increases your risk of PPA, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression dramatically. So really struggling without sleep, like, of course, because it's fundamental for us to be able to function, not even thrive, function. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And I that distinction not even thrive, babe, just yeah function. And I want you to be thriving, living orange glass of wine, loving life, but also just period. And that's a lot of times what I say. to It's not a sleep is not optional. Sleep is not optional.
Speaker: So when you come into whether it's like virtual or in person and you're like meeting with that mom for the first time, what are these moms experiencing? What are they telling you? How are they feeling? Yeah, I mean, a lot of times these are these are people that have been so focused on, or like, you know, the whole focus has been around sleep, even though they're so little sleep. Even though they're so little sleep, the whole focus has been around sleep, which is so like, you know, such a contradiction. um But they they're like completely, yeah they just, what was the question?
Speaker: What are these moms actually what are they struggling with Yeah what are they struggling with Like how are they Feeling Because I think like for me I can say I started really feeling like my postpartum depression was peaking around six months into my son's life. And that's when people were checking in on me less. People were thinking, oh, you probably have the hang of it a little bit more. And that's really when i was like, okay, my brain is exploding because I'm still having fragmented sleep. So I guess I'm just wondering, like
Speaker: You kind of touched on it, like how these moms are feeling. They're just like, I guess, exhausted, overwhelmed. like They're so exhausted. I would say there's an isolation factor because sometimes like parents are now the mom is required to be there at bedtime. Sometimes they go to sleep when the baby goes to sleep because they can't get out of the room. So it's like you lose a chunk of your evening and a chunk of your alone time and a chunk of yourself and a chunk of time to be with your partner or your friends or whoever is there. So that's a big one. It's just like my evening is gone and they're sleeping poorly throughout the night. So they're a zombie during the day. they They're not doing the things that they love. Right. Like they're not, you know, planning to see a friend for coffee. They're just getting through the day. Yeah. And like survival mode. Yeah. and a lot And thinking about sleep like quite a lot, even though there's not a lot of sleep happening. And there's a feeling of my one of my family said, like she sleeps with her eye open, like she feels like she was going to bed, going to battle.
Speaker: yeah Yes. Yes. um You started to touch on this a little bit when you were saying like there's so little sleep, but sleep is such on the forefront of these families' minds. So yeah there's so much mental load around baby sleep when you think about like wake windows, nap schedules, baby like nap math. what apps to use, time I remember timing the naps, oh my God, overtook my soul. Trying not to mess up bedtime also overtook my soul.
Speaker: How do we know when trying to optimize sleep is actually making it more stressful? And like that optimization and the tracking, like I would track every single nap, I would be timing it. I was looking at the wake windows, I was doing the math. yeah And then I didn't leave my son My son's 16 months. I've still only not done bedtime three times because at this point, I know it is me and I've accepted that.
Speaker: I've accepted this. But like, I'm so anxious. I've also exclusively breastfed my son. So like no bottles for him. um I was so anxious of like him not being breastfed before bed and like he's going to be hungry and he's go like freak out.
Speaker: he's been put to bed without me, not freaked out at all, been totally fine. So that's why I know it's me now. Yeah. But all of those different things to like optimize bedtime. The question was, how do we know when trying to optimize is actually making it more stressful or like what things should we be doing? Yeah, yeah. I mean, so many things just came in my mind. But in terms of, I think about like controlling versus optimizing, right? And so when I have families who su tell me about a nap and they're like, it was from, you know, 128 to 222, immediately know, okay, there's a level of controlling and anxiety that's there. if you're If you're thinking about naps, you know, if you're not rounding up, then like we're in that controlling phase versus optimizing. Or I'll have families who will say, Well, you know, last night he fell asleep with no crying. Tonight it was four minutes. So I think it was the bath. We did, you know, bubbles in the bath. And I think, you know, he was overstimulated. And that's why he cried. And I'm just like, oh, I just like get a glass of wine. I just want to come give you a hug. Like just breathe, you know, because this is me. No, it was me. It was me. But I'm screaming. it's so common. And.
Speaker: Any parent that I talk to who is telling me on our call or in person about wake windows and what they've tried, I'm like, they're not somebody who's going to solve the sleep issue with, you know, wake windows, which is a sleep pressure like solution and sleep pressure solve. This is such a big one. um Optimizing timing, yes, it's about regulating sleep cycles and bringing more predictability, which is so important for sleep. But ultimately, when changing the schedule, improve sleep, there was a sleep pressure issue causing, you know, the night wakings of the difficult bedtime. If there's a sleep association issue or hunger or something else going on,
Speaker: Can I say fucking? Yeah, you Fucking with the schedule by 15 minutes is not going to push the needle. And sometimes it can if it's a sleep pressure issue. But I feel like everybody is thinking about wake windows as it's like the magic bullet to sleep.
Speaker: And it's not. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yes. And you could totally say fucking on this podcast. um Okay. So now we're going to go into really the tea the really big T, which I think is the word sleep training, which makes a lot of people like freak out. It makes them really clench. It makes them really like freak out a little bit. So sleep training has become such a loaded phrase. Yeah.
Speaker: I want to talk a little bit about sleep training for me and then I want to ask you what sleep training means to you. So before I had my son, I was like, I will never sleep train. Sleep training is just not for me. I remember talking to my mom about it and being like, yeah, girl, I'm never doing that. And to me, what sleep training, what I believed it was without really any, not knowing anyone that had sleep trained, not really having any experience with like what it would look like, yeah not reading a single book on it, just the vibes of sleep training, what I thought that it meant. I was like, you just leave your baby crying and walk away and it's going to do something bad to them. and it's so selfish. Those were like the the top level, high level things that came to my mind. And I say all of this because that's truly what I believed and felt in my heart and really what I thought. And it's pretty much almost the only thing. I also thought I wasn't going to breastfeed. So that's like the other huge thing. sad Yeah, I never I was like, I'm doing formula, babe. I'm never doing that. That seems super weird. Can ask why?
Speaker: Because no one in my family had. okay I'd never seen yeah someone breastfeed in my life, actually, except like walking by someone. And I was like, that's weird. Your boobs out. That's strange. yeah So I just never thought I would. um And now well I'm 16 months into breastfeeding and I'm like, i time of my life with breastfeeding all day. I'm like, i'm going breastfeed him until he's like 15. Like, ah sorry.
Speaker: But I never thought. Oh, sorry. to Sorry back. let Yeah. Not why take it back. Taking it back. Yeah. Um, but i think it's just really like what you see. And, you know, even as someone that like, I feel like I'm trying, to I'm so open minded. I really go to the research. I really try to be so open. It's so easy to just fall into like, this is what I've seen. And this is what I know. And like, I'm not doing that or I am doing that.
Speaker: So, but sleep training is ah one of the huge things that I just felt so sure. Okay. And then I had my son, And about two weeks in, my friend gifted me a copy of a book about baby sleep and that book, Precious Little Sleep. ok And I read that book cover to cover like four or five times because when I was up in the middle of the night breastfeeding a ghost sleeping, i would whip out my Kindle and read that book because I was like, if I just can memorize this into my bones, I will be able to do it. And someday I will be able to sleep. and So my whole perspective changed. I said, girl, I'm studying for the for the most important test of my life, which is going to be sleep training, because I was like, I'm going to learn every single thing that I can. And I was reading like, what is it like 12 hours by 12 weeks? Read that book cover to cover. Mom's on call, reading it cover to cover. Every book I could find on sleep training and baby sleep, I was devouring because I was like, I'm going to become an expert on this because I am unwell.
Speaker: Yeah. So I went kind of get the complete other direction. Ultimately. Yes. When I decided to put it into practice, it was because I was doing contact naps only to my son was almost four months old. Yeah. It's like to the isolation point that I talked about earlier. Yes. Like you're stuck at home. You're under a baby. Yeah.
Speaker: Insane. I was doing a trying to do a contact nap. My son was becoming more alert. He was like four months old and he just like would not go to sleep and he hadn't slept like all day. And it's like two o'clock in the afternoon or something. And I'm freaking out.
Speaker: And i have the white noise on. I'm literally crying. I'm trying to eat a sandwich. I'm trying to breastfeed him at the same time. I'm in a dark room in my mother-in-law's like house. My husband came in and he said, i think we're done.
Speaker: i i think I'm so proud of you for doing these contact naps for so many months, but I think we're done. and like, I need you to go outside. Thank God we had like a backyard because we weren't like in our Brooklyn apartment. He said, I need you to go outside and I got this. And he like stayed with our son. Like obviously our son did not want him to soothe him. He wanted me. Yeah. And he stayed with our son. Our son probably was crying and he was like, I'm going to be with him and I'm going to get him down. And he like put him down in the bassinet and came to me ah like an hour later. I was like, he's sleeping in the bassinet and he had never taken a bassinet nap since ever in his life. Yeah. And after that, he was like, I am now in charge of this. I am going to sleep train him. I'm going to like be with him. i have also read the books, babe, because you forced me. And I've also everything you've been talking about. I got it. And like, I'm going to soothe him and I'm going to do the timer and like, I'm going to do this. And that was when we started sleep training and I kept feeding overnight. Love this story.
Speaker: Love that. Richard held me down. Does he have a brother for me? I love this. Keep going. um We kept feeding overnight because I wasn't really, i didn't feel ready to get rid of those night feedings. Huge thing. Sleep training and night weaning don't have to happen at the same time. Big. We're going get into it. i want I'm going to let you go on your whole spiel. when i'm not I'm almost done story. Keep going. I love this. I'm not sharing this on the pod, so I want the moms to know that like I've been through. I kept feeding overnight.
Speaker: When he was almost nine months, my pediatrician was like, hey, babe, I love my pediatrician. She's very, very supportive. She was like, hey, babe, I think it is you. i think it is you. I don't think it's actually him because he's like able to self soothe and able to like go down at bedtime. and He's like chilling. But he it sounds like he makes one peep at night and you're like right there like you're hungry.
Speaker: And I think it's you, girl. And I was like, but he's going to get dehydrated. She said, he he isn't. But like, if you want to keep doing this, you can. But like, it don't do it because you think he's dehydrated. And don't do it because you think he's having a growth spurt. Because to me, I was like, he's growing and I'm depriving him of cat of calories. And like, so we slowly started like lessening the times of the feed because they were so quick. It was like eight minutes that we were doing both sides. He was like... Little sip, little sip, sleep. He just like wanted me to say, hey, like it was, he was not hungry. We decreased it. It actually went so well, so smoothly.
Speaker: By like the fourth night, I was able to just like give him a cuddle, put him back down. Dad went in for like two nights and then he's been, thank the heavens, sleeping through the night since January. Now, I mean, he's, he's woken up like twice. Like he's like a solid sleep, sleep king. um So yeah, that was my journey. Once I slept through, once he slept through the night for like two weeks, I was in therapy and I was like,
Speaker: I feel so much better. My therapist was like, yeah, girl, you started sleeping. yeah Yeah. So I'm done with my spiel. We're going to get back to you. but that was my sleep training. Can I ask a question? Yes. Is there anything that you would change looking back or anything you would say to yourself? Okay. Yeah. Hit us with that. I would change. um I have a friend who has many kids and she basically does.
Speaker: So we did like. learning how to go down awake first. That was like the first thing. And Richard would like put his hand on his chest and like soothe him without picking him up. That was kind of the first thing. But then a few weeks later, we had to like unswaddle him because we started with the swaddle. Then we had to unswaddle him. Then a few weeks later, he had like a sleep regression. Then i had to like...
Speaker: stop the overnight feeds. I kind of wish I just did it all at once and just like so because doing it all like that, I was still not sleeping. And Richard was like stay waking up with me and I was like, babe, there's nothing for you to do. You go to sleep and just like I will do this. But like I wish I had just like done everything at once. I know that like I wasn't ready to get rid of those night feedings and that that was like a me thing. But like I didn't know how much better I would feel once I did sleep.
Speaker: that's such That's such an important thing right there. so I wish I had unswaddled, just like done it all at the same yeah time and just like gotten it all over with. I think mom's not knowing how much poor sleep is affecting them. And then they get their baby sleeping, they sleep train. And it's like this whole world like brightens up again. that You're just not even aware of how much it's hurting you. Yeah. Like, you know, it's hurting you, but then you start sleeping and you're like, holy shit. Like I was, saying yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I was a ghost. Yeah. Ghost. You tell me yeah what does sleep training mean to you? And like, friends, this is not like sleep training propaganda. If you don't want to sleep train, babe, like you don't have to. So I would love to know like what sleep training means to you. And then I'll remind you. But like my follow up question is like if you work with families that don't want to sleep train yeah and what that might be. So first of all, like what is what is training to you? Also, should say how i became like in love and fascinated with helping families get sleep, because this is part of like what sleep training is to me. So when I was a postpartum doula, I'm coming in and taking care of newborns. A lot of the families would have an have an older sibling. And one of the things I picked up on right away was there were families who had sleep trained and the the energy in the house was different. The parents were thriving. The child was thriving because I'd be there at night. So I'd see the difference between bedtime sleep, you know, a kid who was confident in their crib and parents who could hold boundaries versus parents that hadn't sleep trade. You know, everything's out of control in the evening. Everybody's tired. Everybody's cranky. There's no boundaries being held. And it became this thing of like,
Speaker: Sleep training is really the first boundary or the first no that you have to hold as a parent. And it's really hard, right? And as our kids get older and, you you know, they're crying at the coffee shop because they want a cookie, like you can hold that boundary and say no. But there's something about the emotional piece of doing it around sleep and feeling like you're not giving them something that need that holds parents back. But I just saw like such a dramatic such a dramatic difference between families who held boundaries around sleep, sleep trained, the way they ate dinner at night, right? The kids were sitting, they were eating dinner versus like, it's a bit dramatic, but like you don't sleep train, your kid's up all night, you're in up all night, you give them mac and cheese, they're watching TV. It's a little bit of a dramatic example, but but it it like it is kind of relevant. So I just said, I really want to help parents like be in this driver's seat of their family and be like, what does our whole family need? Not what is that not how do we keep our kid happy all the time. What does our family need to thrive? And sleep is a huge part of that. And so sleep training
Speaker: you know is Helping your baby feel confident in the crib so they can fall asleep in the crib and fall back asleep throughout the night. Like night wakings are biologically normal. It's a protective measure of sleep. We wake up throughout the night. So babies are going to stir throughout the night. So having them be confident settling in their crib and then confident resettling throughout the night, that that is sleep training, an independent sleep routine and your baby having crib confidence. Wow.
Speaker: Okay, so I love that you fell in love with sleep training or like the idea of it because you were seeing in real life like what it looked like. yeah When you work with families and or do you ever work with families because I mean, i've seen and heard from other sleep consultants and like different people, different, you know, professionals and experts that they may not even work with a family if it like obviously isn't a good fit for them. So for you, do you even work with families that say like, I don't want to sleep train? And if so, like, what would that be?
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, I talk to everybody before I work with them so we can have a really good sense. Like the first call is always just an exploration of where the family is, what they want, what feels unsustainable right now, what's sustainable and what's their capacity for change, right? Like sometimes we get on a call and they just realize they're not ready, you know? And that's a huge part of sleep training is you have to have the capacity for change. Sometimes it just sucks and a parent needs to vent and they're not ready to make a change. And that's really okay, yeah you know? And sometimes they get to a point where it's unsustainable and they do...
Speaker: need to make a change. So for me, whether you want to sleep train or night wean or continue breastfeeding or whatever it is, we have a really open conversation about what your goals are and what we can do together and what it would look like. And I'll be really real, you know, with families about if they have limitations around what they want to do, like where we can get to. And if it's not getting all the way, like a realistic, okay, if you want to hold, you you want to keep this, this is where we'll end up. Are you okay with that? So parents can really understand you know, what their options are and where they can go. Is there a way to work towards better sleep without really focusing on that piece of like your child? Yeah. Because this is, i mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like what I'm understanding and what I've understood about like sleep training in general, regardless of what method or tools you use is like if parents are like,
Speaker: Having a hard time with that fundamental part of like letting your child learn how to yeah resettle themselves without your intervention. If a parent is like, no, i don't want that part. Is there a way to work towards better sleep?
Speaker: 100 percent. Yeah. want like if you remove the dependent to independent sleep association part which is sleep training there are things that we can do to improve sleep you the things already might be the best that they can be and the last piece is that and at least you know that right that is sometimes what happens with families we explore everything else we explore the nap schedule we explore routine we explore nutrition and it's like nope everything is solid it's just this last piece and then they know right they don't have the mental load of like could it be could it be But if you don't want to change the sleep association part, you want to look at nutrition during the day, more relevant for younger babies, but also older babies. Are they getting what they need during the day so that they can sleep and have consolidated nighttime sleep and not need to feed overnight? Nap schedule.
Speaker: Are naps during the day supporting nighttime sleep? Not are they perfect? Not are they you know are they happening around the same time each day? Predictability is super important. If you think about us, like... you know If we got up every day at a different time, went to bed at a different time, like always had a different schedule, our sleep would not be that great. So bringing predictability to the day is really important. And then also the routine that happens before sleep. And you don't have to change that last step into sleep. But bringing more consistency to what's happening around sleep can also be helpful.
Speaker: Yeah. um yeah I love that. For, okay, so how do you know when, because I know that you said like sometimes you get on a call with a family and you're like, I think they just wanted to vent and like maybe they're not ready for this like last piece of moving from dependent to independent sleep. What makes you feel like a family is ready for that? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like the family who's ready is willing to put in the work and go through the temporary discomfort yeah that happens with sleep training. And they see it as really beneficial to getting where their family needs to go. yeah They're like, no, it's not fun. Like, I'm not excited, you know, to have my baby ah be upset because we're moving from, you know, rocking to not rocking. But like, this is that little discomfort, which is so temporary, if you think about it, so, so temporary is is is worth it. And we're really excited to be getting better sleep. Yeah, I think for me, I i actually made a TikTok about this and it i always, when when a when I make a video and it does well, I say to my husband that it goes triple platinum. That's like how I like to describe it. It did go triple platinum because I feel like so many moms that have sleep trained can relate to this. And like...
Speaker: i especially when I was like pregnant with my son, I was in grad school. And so I would like look up everything in the Columbia library and find like all the peer reviewed research because I was out of my mind a little bit. And I was like, I need the like real data and real evidence. So I've like literally i have an annotated bibliography with all the research that we currently have on sleep training because that's how out of my mind I was. And I was like, I need to know. And essentially there is no research at all that says sleep training is harmful.
Speaker: So I made this TikTok talking about, do we have research that says it's beneficial? Not necessarily. We don't have research that says sleep training is good when you look at them, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 year old that was sleep trained. We don't have that research. We also don't necessarily have the research that say co-sleeping or a different method of sleep is good, you know, in the future.
Speaker: But the way I felt was even if I give, if every single waking, I'm nursing my baby back to sleep, I'm there, I'm with him, and I feel like that is me doing my best job as a mom.
Speaker: I know when I wake up in the morning, I'm on the verge of tears. I have a pounding headache that I thought was like just my life now. I would wake up every single day and take two Motrin or two Tylenol because I had a pounding headache for months every single day. And I would be like, am I dehydrated? Am I this? Am I that? No, babe, you haven't slept in like months. But like yeah I would wake up with a pounding headache. I was immediately so on edge. I was crying every single day. I did have postpartum anxiety. I did have postpartum depression. I was in therapy like, um are we well as all the moms like going through it? i was so depleted. i was i was like, oh, my God, this is forever. This is just like going to be this hard forever. And I think even if
Speaker: i find out in the future that there may be like some elements of sleep training. I really as someone that has lived experience sleep training. yeah I 10 out of 10 love it. Think it was the best thing I ever did. so Number one fan of of it, of of like the results. My son was like so much happier and like less fussy and just like everyone was better. But even if I find out, OK, maybe, you know, in 100 years, they're like no one's sleep training anymore.
Speaker: I think like the pros of the mother I was able to be in the waking hours and the person that I was able to be for myself because like, exactly. Yes, my son deserves a good mother, but like I deserve actually to be a full person too. Like I'm a still a person.
Speaker: I'm still a human that like deserves a life that feels worth living versus being like a ghost because I haven't slept. And to me, like the pros of feeling like a human again and being able to like be a good person outweighed the few days of like yeah you're saying like the research is not there on sleep training being good for the baby but what about the research on like a happy mom and that research is there babe exactly so that research is there girl you're so right that research is there that sleep training actually the only measurable benefit was in maternal mental health clock it because i That is so good for your child. The benefit to your child seeing a happy mom, a mom who has pat you know passions, interests, friends, like that is the benefit. No, you're so right. Because, yeah and I remember because especially when you're pregnant or before you have kids, you think you know, you know nothing, but you think you know. And I was like, oh, well, that's the only measurable benefit. That just feels selfish because all you're focusing on is like your benefit as a mom, but like your baby is suffering. That's what I thought when I was like anti-sleep training when I did. Yeah, said it was selfish. But really... But no, because I'm literally a demon if I like yeah haven't slept. Because we're not talking like not sleeping for a few days. We're talking months, months, months, months and months of not sleeping. It's tough. No, maternal mental health is such a huge indicator of overall childhood well-being and happiness for your baby. And remember...
Speaker: You are a person like you deserve also to be okay. You're not you're a human being outside of motherhood, too. And remembering that and like.
Speaker: sleep was so attached to all those things, the guilt, the shame, yeah the anxiety, the mourning my old life, the becoming who I was going to be. All those pieces were so attached to sleep and like feeling it was selfish to not just like give everything to this baby. So no sleep training, I think has such a huge mental and emotional sleep is like so connected to like emotions and like mental health for moms. Yeah.
Speaker: um So for the exhausted mom who listens that feels like their sleep is completely falling apart, where should they start? What what are the actionable steps? what do What do these moms do? Do they call a sleep consultant like you?
Speaker: i think like we were kind of talking about this before we started recording. swaddle your baby, white noise, red light, all of those things. I think like we see all these tips online. Yeah. Like what are the tips that are really worth taking? And like, where do we start if we're just like, I'm not sleeping and like, I'm not good.
Speaker: Yeah, if you have the resources to hire somebody, i absolutely would. The same way I would tell somebody who's pregnant, if you have the word resources to hire, you know, somebody to help you cook, somebody to visit you, lactation consultant proactively just to give you confidence, a nighttime doula, like use your resources in that way. So if you have the resources to hire somebody, i highly recommend it. In terms of where to go outside of that, I would, where I would not go is TikTok and Instagram. I would, I'd say this to moms, like, I want you to wipe your feed and go back to what it was before you were pregnant.
Speaker: Like what were your, did you like to cook? Do you like to shop? Do you like fashion? Do you like art? Like what was your feed before that? Let's get rid of like the baby shit and go back to who you are. And then in terms of finding out how to help your baby sleep, I would rather you go to a blog, a book or a YouTube video. than like very short form content that's made by people who who like, you know, there's there's great value in parents sharing with parents, period. Like historically, that's how we've been raised is like our grandmother and our aunt and our friend telling us something. So there is a lot of power to that, but there's something about the short form content
Speaker: content that I find not to be helpful. And also, this isn't your grandmother, your mother, and your friend. If your grandma and your mom and your friend want to come over and like talk you through something, that is super different than like watching someone that you don't know that's like a million miles away on TikTok. So like I totally agree with you. With a totally different baby. And I think when you go to start reading a blog, you know watching YouTube video, reading a book, you start to understand... you know, bigger picture of like why, what a baby needs to sleep through night. Why versus just like Janet's baby who's taken an eight ounce bottle and like goes down happy, right? Janet's baby could be a great eater and have a super easy temperament, right? And that's why she got there. And that's great for people that have the same story. But if you have a more, you know, sensitive baby and you have a different feeding journey, ah you need information to help you decide how to make steps forward. Yeah.
Speaker: Are there any resources that you specifically really love? Good question. um I feel like people tend to gravitate towards what kind of aligns with them parenting style, right? Like some parents love 12 hours by 12 weeks. Some parents love moms on call. They love bringing in that schedule earlier. You know, some families are doing it later on and they're doing precious little sleep. I hear about this a lot. So I would go towards anything that you kind of read the jacket slip of and you're like, yeah, that that speaks to me. Yeah.
Speaker: Um, okay. I love that. And then what are some of the biggest baby sleep myths that you feel or just like misinformation or things that like i wrote you that other yeah they you see parents come in with or that you see on social or that you hear that you're like parents really need to like remove this from their brain?
Speaker: Bad habits. I don't use the word bad habits in my practice. There's like what's working for your family, what's not working for your family. Sustainable, unsustainable. i hear a lot of, you know, run into people on the street and there's kind of a guilt about like, oh, we're co-sleeping. It's like, no, no, like say it with your shoulders back and like you own that, you know, whatever's happening in your house. If you feel good about it, like you say it proudly, you know, and not like, oh, you know,
Speaker: Whatever, with with shame. um And I think also overtired, there's so much pressure right now on new moms or a lot of the information that I think comes through Instagram, TikTok is like the schedules and optimizing the times and 10 minutes here and five minutes there. And if your baby's overtired, then your life is over. Like if your baby is overtired, your baby's overtired. Like grab a glass of wine, go for a walk, like put them in the carrier and go for a walk. Like maybe put them in the stroller, have them fall asleep and like have a burger at Bar Americano, right? Like it's going to be okay. You've been through so much more shit than your tiny baby being tired. You know, like you can, I think it's this feeling of like, if it happens or this is what it is. It's like, we feel like if we do, you know, A plus B, we're going to get to C and that's like babies are going to baby, right? So if we try to control everything, like, well, I did the right feet and the right,
Speaker: You know, X, like, why aren't they doing Y? It's like, but, you know, that's actually like babies are going to baby. No, babies are going to baby. Babies are going to baby. Babies really going to baby. And I'm obsessed with everything that you just said, because i first of all, for me, I did try to do like a schedule with him when he was three months old. Ha ha. Because that was insane. Not good and terrible. So that did not work for me. um But now he's 16 months old. We have a little schedule. But also, you know what? If we're having the time of our life at the splash pad, babe, we're going to nap a half hour later and we're
Speaker: chilling yeah we're chilling we're good we're having good times if it is summer and we're having the time of our life like out to dinner and we're really thriving and we're really slaying and we're gonna go to bed a half hour later yeah that is okay i also will say jade is a chill guy like my little guy he's a chill guy he is going with the flow he's a really chill guy and he's a he's a sleeper that's why i know also some of his like really crazy sleep was me, which is okay too. Like if you're a mom and you're just hypervigilant and you're freaking out and you're like, especially an exclusively nursing mom who your hormones are raging and you have postpartum anxiety and you're out of your mind and you're like my baby starving. Like I remember he'd open his eyes and I'd be over him already in the crib.
Speaker: to nurse him. And what I took it as is we're so connected that the moment you open your eyes, I already know and I'm already here to feed you. And you know what? I love that for me. but also, he probably was going to go right back to sleep. But I was hovering over him like, hi, you want me to feed you We're so connected. But also, he was probably like, girl, I was going to go back to sleep. But since you're here, sure, I'll have a little snack. But like, I was so...
Speaker: much that like I know some of that was me do I regret it no exactly like because everybody just goes through their shit in motherhood yeah you can't again like this is the control aspect you can't like even listen to this podcast and avoid your like there's just always gonna be pitfalls there's gonna be it's gonna be stuff yeah and I think yeah letting go of control is a big one and with overtire too paying attention to your baby versus like well I read if we're past four hours like a hurricane's gonna start it's like well if you're at dinner your baby's just chilling like you're good You're okay? Yeah, you're You're okay. Yeah. Okay, love that.
Speaker: i end every episode with some recurring questions. And I love this because we're to to about your motherhood a little bit, which we didn't get into a ton. um So since you became a mother, what do you understand about motherhood now that you didn't before? I know you talked a little bit about postpartum yeah in the beginning, but something it doesn't even necessarily have to be about sleep. It could just be about anything in your motherhood journey. Yeah. Okay, something that I really have learned and honed in on and really just owned in the last probably year, it took me five five years to get here, is just that i' am not a I'm not a full-time mom. I am a better part-time mom. I joke about having a full-time staff. I don't. But I just, I am happier when a babysitter takes my kid to Dumbo on the ferry and they go to the playground and I'm home chilling or doing things that I want to do. It's a win-win. I think for a long time, I just...
Speaker: Didn't have enough help. Felt like it should always be me. We're so much happier with help. I am such a better mom with help. With help, I don't need to be in the trenches all the time to like have a gold sticker that I'm the mom. And I just feel my son is thriving. I'm thriving. And i love, i like love my helpers. Like it's,
Speaker: i like My sitter roster is my everything. I'm obsessed with that. I remember, again, before you're a mom, you are the best mom on earth because you are such a little judgmental rat like I was. I was like a little judgmental rat yeah looking, scrolling my feet being like, I will never do that when I'm a mom. And I remember seeing a mom. I literally think about her all the time. i have no idea what creator this was or influencer or just like girl that posted this. me I have no idea who she was. But I remember her being like, I'm a full time stay at home mom. And I also have a full time nanny. And I remember being like a judgmental little rat looking at that, being like, that would never be me. um You didn't know anything. And you were a little rat. Like, I had no idea what I was talking about because I totally agree with like to various degrees.
Speaker: Based on who you are, i feel like having space to be a human being is incredible. There's nothing else like it. So I love that for you. um What is something mothers worry about that you wish they could give themselves permission to stop worrying about?
Speaker: Permission to stop worrying about... um permission to stop worrying about? feel like all the little things, like everything just gets better. My son, i don't know if this is TMI, had such a hard time potty training and he just figured it out. He's five. He was potty trained for a while, but he would not, he would poop in a diaper literally until his fifth birthday. And it was so stressful, but it's like they all get there, whatever it is, like the delayed walking or not doing, you know, as much speaking as their friend or, you know, it's like they just all get there in their own time, in their own space and just knowing
Speaker: They're going to get there. Yeah. And just like release the the worry. Yeah. um You kind of reminded me. This isn't a recurring question. This is just like my question for you. Yeah, love. Because as a like sleep training professional and like sleep consultant, does your son have perfect sleep? Like, did he always like, is that something that you had ups and downs with or like how was that for you with your own son Yeah. So I knew that sleep was always going to be a priority for me going into having my son. i I'm a high sleep needs gal. I love my sleep. I love having time to myself. I knew in the evenings that I would want to be able to put him down and do X, Y, and Z, whatever I wanted to do. So it was always a priority. So I sleep trained him when he was young.
Speaker: I'm so glad that he did. He's an incredible sleeper. Part of that is the boundaries that I hold. And part of that is his temperament. and I think that's super important to know. um Like, you know, as somebody that helps people sleep train, it's like, you know, temperament and your child's sleep needs and and all of that matters along with the boundaries you hold. It's not always like to blame what the parents are doing. Like kids are so unique. Yeah. So he loves to sleep. He's a phenomenal sleeper. But I will say we're to um like to my partner, Peter's dad and I are separated. We're like two home family. And he has a really hard time sleeping with his dad. And his dad had BOP. I say BOP like bubble protection, even though this is like everybody's going to see it. That's my way to be like, nobody can hear this. He has a hard time holding boundaries.
Speaker: And I'm really good at holding boundaries. You know, he'll be like, Peter would like, I don't want to go to bed. I'm like, love you. Close the door. Love you. Good then he'll be like, love you. I'm like, love you. Good night. See you tomorrow. Like, I feel so confident. At the end of the day, we're done. Like, it's lights out. Yeah. We're done. It's yeah done. You know, it's 830. Like, adios. Yeah.
Speaker: We're done. you tomorrow. See you tomorrow. Like, we got a million days. Like, we'll be back. Goodbye. It's so funny. You're making me think, when you say it's temperament, like, my son, we taught him, like, a sign really young. And so, he'll, still make my son go, are you all done? Yes. So he was actually killing me. And also I was like, this is incredible. He had like a really long day. We took him to the pediatrician. We were on the ferry on the way back home and he missed his nap. And I was going to put him down when we came home. But it was getting later and later. And I was like, I just think you're going to not nap today because this is crazy. And we're on the ferry and he's signing to me sleep and he's signing sleep and he's doing more sleep. And he was like, girl, where's my nap at? It's so awesome. Keep me down. He was like, put down. And when we got home, I put him in his crib. He signed me sleep. And now that he talks, he goes sleep, sleep. And he's like, put me to sleep, girl. I'm tired. We'll be at the park and he'll be sleep. And I'm like, all right, we wrap it up. And that is his temperament. Like it is his temperament. He's like, put me down, queen. am out. I need to sleep. And I'm like, love that for you. No, babies like to sleep. Babies like to sleep. And even if you a baby who's not like that, who's more FOMO, who is always going to want rage till the last minute, like that transition from a week to sleep, they're always going to cry or call out for five minutes. They still love sleep. They still need that sleep. And being a parent is being like, we're still going to, we're going prioritize this because I know you need to sleep. And it's hard and you don't like it, but I know you need to sleep.
Speaker: um Okay, segue from my side questions, but I just wanted to ask you because I'm like, everyone's going to want to know this. um my last question is, what would you say to the mother listening right now who feels like she's the only one struggling with sleep? Oh, my God. No. No.
Speaker: but No, and this is like, hello, this is everybody. Everybody is going to struggle with sleep at at some point. um Like just, I wish I could give you a big hug. And I think always like there's always a baby who's sleeping better than yours and worse than yours. And for some reason, my clients, my families, they only hear about the babies that are sleeping better than theirs. And there's always, there's always a family who's in the exact same boat, who's doing better, who's who's struggling less. You are so not alone. Again, like, Nothing can prepare you for how hard motherhood is, period. I don't say how beautiful and hard. No, no. Nobody's going prepare you for how hard it is, period. You are not alone. You know, you can get better sleep. You can find a better equilibrium for your family in terms of sleep, whatever that looks like, whether you're thrilled to sleep training or, youre you know, thrilled to sleep train. You just want to try baby steps. Like you are so not alone. um
Speaker: Never. Yeah. Never. I think that's honestly like the whole vibes of this entire podcast is just helping moms feel less alone because this is so hard. And I totally agree. I think as moms, you're always trying to like caveat like it's beautiful and it I love it. I love my baby. I love my child. I love this. But also like even when you said... I'm a better mom, like not full time being at home with my son. Like so many moms like but also I love them and this. And that is this podcast for the moms, babe. We assume you love your your baby and that you're slaying as a mom. And we're here to talk about how hard it is because this is the hardest thing i've ever done my life. Yeah, you have a 16 month old. That phase is so hard for me. I remember this is seared into my mind, Googling, I hate my toddler.
Speaker: but And I'm not going to copy out it with, I love my toddler. I'm just telling you, Googled, I hate my toddler. Maybe I don't like my toddler, but I really found that phase difficult. Because I felt like was lot just like grunting and not a lot of words and a lot of demands. I'm can you file the demands with anybody else? like and or we're at the max for today yeah sit down for me it's like the newborn phase so many I see so much content and like so many moms talk about oh my god when they were that little like they're never going to be this little and like the newborn scrunch and the smell and like they were so small and I'm like I'm so good to not have a newborn I am so good. That was actually so, so so hard. And actually my brain was full melted and I was bad and i did not enjoy. My husband was like, I did not feel connected to him. I was like, you're kind of the worst and this sucks. And we would like put him down sometimes and just cry and be like, what is this? And he was like, is this the biggest mistake you've ever made in our life? Because this was so good for people hear this. hard. Oh my gosh. Like,
Speaker: What? It was twenty four seven so hard. 25-7. 25-8. I was like, what is this? And now, like a little bit opposite. Some people are like this taller face. My son, first of all, chatty Cathy. He talks a lot. He's saying all the words. We are two peas in a pod. We're literal best friends. Yesterday, we were listening to the Elmo slide. He was on his toddler seat and he goes, slide. And he makes like a slide with his hand. He goes, slide. And we're doing the Elmo slide. We're eating some like peanut butter rice cakes together, jamming it out. And i was like, you're my freaking bestie. This is a time of my life. We're eating snacks. Listen to the Elmo slide. We're thriving, babe.
Speaker: This is 10 out 10. And I'm so happy we made it here. So like every mom has a different phase that they love. Maybe you do love the newborn phase. And you know what, babe? I love that for you so hard because some moms are in the newborn bubble. I was in the trench. I was in trench. You were like, I got the I didn't get the bond. Something happened. It popped and I went down. I'm in the trench. So I was in the trenches. But now we're bubbling. We're in red. Like you could not more radiant. We're loving. Beautiful sun. Thank you so much. Yeah, now we're loving it. So whatever phase your motherhood journey.
Speaker: Whether you're sleeping or not, I promise you're not alone. um oh not alone. Ella, thank you so much for your wisdom, your expertise. Where can people find you? Where can people work with you? you also only work with moms in New York? Like, what's the details? Let us know.
Speaker: Virtually and in person here in New York. I love my New York families. And then virtually all over. You can find me on my website, Ella Grace Sleep Solutions, or Instagram. You send me a message. But really, website. I'm less on social media more and more. And your website's beautiful. Oh, thank you. Your website's Gorgina. It was the best. Your website's Gorgina. I just made website. I went to see where your website developer was. It was me. No, it was not. It was me. But I did use an incredible designer for my logos and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You put together that website on Squarespace? Yes. Okay, we got to break this But WK Creative, shout out to Whitney. Love you, girl. She made my logos and everything. But I made my website. But your website's also Gorgina. Okay, friends. That's where you can find Ella. Okay.
Speaker: Ella, thank you so much for being here. Moms, you're not alone. Also, I just have to caveat this by saying, if you hate sleep training, if you're like, I despise sleep training, you probably didn't make it this far in the episode. But if you hate it and you're so mad that we talked about sleep training, don't DM me, babe. I'm going to block you. Because... i don't want to hear about it. Don't yell at me. If you hate sleep training, don't take it up with me. Take it up with capitalism. Take it up with patriarchy.
Speaker: Take it up with literally our creator that made babies not sleep. You know what I mean? Don't yell at me. I'm not going to listen. So I want to leave you that. ah I'm Taylor Rae Roman. Thank you so much for listening to Since I Became a Mother.
Speaker: I'll see in the next one. Thanks so much for listening. if you loved this episode, if something resonated with you, if you learned something that you think is interesting or amazing, make sure you share this with another mom that you know.
Speaker: All of the links for today's episode will be in the show notes, my social channels, any info about our guests, any links, products, or resources that we mentioned will be there for you.
Speaker: hope to see you in the next one released every Tuesday. Before I was a mother, barely noticed mothers and now they're all I see. see you.
