Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Growing impact and influence with Dina Denham Smith
354 Plays2 years ago
In today's episode, we talked about leadership and influence with Dina Denham Smith. Dina is an acclaimed author, coach and is the founder of Cognitas, an executive and team coaching organization.
We spoke with Dina about how she found her way into coaching and the sometimes counterintuitive key characteristics of good team leadership. We also covered Dina's journey as a content creator herself, and what she's learned as an accomplished author including how to encourage your subconcious self to tackle challenging creative problems (like writing a book!).
Learn more about Dina at https://www.dinadsmith.com/ or on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/dina-denham-smith
Subscribe to the Content People newsletter at https://meredithfarley.substack.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Content People, a podcast where we talk to creatives and leaders to uncover actionable advice for our listeners. I'm the show's creator and host, Meredith Farley. I'm here alongside Ian Servin, a creative director of video and special projects at Brafft and the producer of this show. Hey, Ian. Hey, Meredith.
Guest Introduction: Dina Denham-Smith
00:00:28
Speaker
So for today's episode, we talked to Dina Denham-Smith. Dina is an author, coach, and speaker, and she's the CEO and founder of Cognitas, a coaching organization. Dina is very professionally decorated. She has an MS in organizational psychology and an MBA from the University of Michigan.
00:00:46
Speaker
Her clients include senior leaders and teams that brands like Adobe, Goldman Sachs, PwC, Netflix, Dropbox, DocuSign, Lyft, and Stripe. And she writes regularly for the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Forbes. Her HBR content was how I first found Dina. In particular, she wrote an article called The Emotional Labor of Being a Leader that really, really grabbed me.
00:01:09
Speaker
Absolutely.
Exploring Leadership and Feedback
00:01:10
Speaker
I'm so glad that we got the chance to talk with her and I feel like we covered so many different topics from giving and receiving effective feedback to what it actually means to be a good leader during periods of uncertainty and change, like the one that we're definitely in right now.
00:01:26
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. She had some great insights. And we also talked a little bit too about her creative process for her own writing. I think I said something to this effect in the conversation. But mentally, I had put Dina in the management slash leadership bucket of our guests rather than creative. But we ended up talking a little bit about how she tries to work with her unconscious mind to support her own writing and creative processes. So I think she was just truly a great guest for content people.
00:01:56
Speaker
So without any further ado, here is our interview with Dina.
Dina's Professional Journey
00:02:05
Speaker
Dina, thank you so much for agreeing to be on this episode. I am a really, really big fan of your writing and content. Your HBR articles are how I came to kind of know you and do a little Googling to learn more about you. You're so professionally decorated from your degrees and experiences to your published work and coaching organization. I kind of almost didn't know where to start and how to structure this interview, but for folks who aren't familiar with you or your work,
00:02:35
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about what you do? Yeah, I can. And thank you for the invitation. I really appreciate it and the very kind introduction. But yeah, for those of you who don't know me, which is probably most of you, I'm an executive coach. I am based just north of San Francisco.
00:02:58
Speaker
in Marin County and I really spend my time coaching senior leaders predominantly as well as some teams. What was your pre-coaching background? How did you get into this work? Yeah, I honestly feel as though this was always
00:03:22
Speaker
the direction I was moving without knowing. So really, even as a little girl, there were just a couple things. As I look in the rear view mirror, I always have been deeply fascinated by people. When I was little, I was like, I want to grow up and be a psychologist. But then I had this really entrepreneurial bent. I was always opening up little businesses and
00:03:47
Speaker
trying to sell the most Girl Scout cookies. And I had a real commercial side to me that was just inherent. And then those tracks really sort of continued throughout my life. And so both in terms of my undergrad and my graduate education, it was really a combination of organizational psychology and business.
00:04:09
Speaker
And then I had multiple chapters that were really either leaning more in one of those ways or the other. So I was an organizational consultant for some time and I had chapters as a leader myself.
00:04:25
Speaker
So I jumped out of the fray of management consulting and led a really large team at a startup that was scaling quite quickly. Moved into private equity, worked with a team there. Then I just got to a reflective place and was thinking, all these chapters have been amazing in one way or another, but I wanted
00:04:54
Speaker
I'm ready to pivot a little bit and I want to get back to directly helping leaders and helping them lead. So that's ultimately what took me into this latest chapter of executive coaching. So it's very much still this interplay of psychology and business, but focused really on helping this population that I care so deeply about, which is our leaders.
00:05:23
Speaker
Thanks. What type of clients are you working with and why are they generally
Challenges for Senior Leaders
00:05:29
Speaker
coming to you? What problems or challenges are they looking for some support or guidance from? Most of my leaders tend to be more senior leaders and probably in part because of my background as well as geographical area. A lot of the clients I work with come from tech.
00:05:51
Speaker
so like old-school tech or to be fintech or biotech, but I work with a ton of tech leaders. I also work with a number of leaders who are more in financial services, so predominantly private equity, hedge funds, different players in that space. Then I dabble in other industries as well.
00:06:18
Speaker
But what's interesting to me is I don't actually have a preference. People are people. It doesn't actually matter if you are in retail or if you're in tech. The issues that I see leaders having are industry agnostic.
00:06:36
Speaker
So a lot of the things that I end up working with leaders on have to do with really how they lead themselves and how as well as how they lead others in this really, you know, like very kind of chaotic, quickly changing
00:06:55
Speaker
an uncertain world. And so I might be working with a leader on how they're managing their team, how they're ensuring this psychological safety and high performance, how they're influencing across an organization. We'll get into executive presence. How are they showing up in these high-stake moments?
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. And so it's a lot within that sort of interpersonal and interpersonal kind of space. There's coaches that are more focused on, let's get down and dirty in your financials and I can find you cost savings. That's not the kind of coaching I do.
00:07:41
Speaker
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like from where you're located and where you're in, I feel like you are somewhat at the epicenter of a lot of things that are happening right now. And I imagine you're having some interesting conversations in very important rooms, physical or virtual.
00:07:58
Speaker
So with funny you mentioned well, it's not funny you mentioned executive presence and makes a lot of sense we actually we also we've interviewed another Wonderful guest was Ellen Gillis who is also a coach and she caught up executive presence to you how do you define executive presence and
00:08:17
Speaker
What do you think it entails?
Understanding Executive Presence
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's an interesting thing, right? Because it is this term that gets bantered about and it's like, but what does that actually mean, right? Other than like someone has this je ne sais quoi, right? But it is an amalgamation of qualities that lead others to have confidence in and respect the person, right? So it is the way that you communicate, right?
00:08:47
Speaker
It is, and I mean that verbally and non-verbally, it is especially when someone is first meeting or having exposure to another, there is really like a large visual component to this.
00:09:06
Speaker
most of our brain is like visual circuitry. And so when we talk about first impressions really mattering, it's more than just a saying. You know, we really notice how people carry themselves. Yeah. And even the clothes they choose to wear, and that may be very, very superficial. But in actually, it's
00:09:33
Speaker
it's perception, we're in the world of perception. And sometimes, you know, that doesn't matter. So it's really kind of communication, it's how you're showing up visually. And kind of really gets into credibility, right? Which is one part competence and one part relationship ability.
00:09:58
Speaker
If someone, say someone is a manager and is trying to move into a director role or a director working to move into a VP or exec role, if he or she has been given feedback that they need to work on their executive presence, but they maybe haven't been given the most detailed info as to what that means, is there anything actionable they could do to somewhat quickly project or develop that
00:10:26
Speaker
confidence and confidence that you're talking about? I think part of what you mentioned that I want to address first is most feedback, it's really broken.
Improving Feedback Systems
00:10:44
Speaker
Because people do get this generic feedback, right? You need to work on your executive presence. You need to work on your communication skills. We need more out of you. What does that all really mean? It could mean so many different things. And so someone who receives that feedback honestly is a little bit at a loss.
00:11:06
Speaker
unless you follow up and ask these probing questions. When I work with leaders, one of the things that actually we do at the front end is I tend to do a lot of stakeholder interviews so that they can actually get very specific and actionable feedback. So we know when someone needs to work on their executive presence, it actually relates to a lot of these nonverbal behaviors they're displaying in a meeting.
00:11:36
Speaker
or for another person, maybe every time they speak, they finish their sentence with a question mark, right? Like it can be
00:11:47
Speaker
Your lack of executive presence could be so many different things. And so when I work with people, I try to get this great feedback for them upfront. Let's just say, though, that you are in an organization and you're not working with a coach who can do that for you and you receive that feedback. Then the question is, what do you do with that?
00:12:09
Speaker
So let's say it comes from your manager. One possibility is you have a follow-up conversation with your manager. Thanks so much for your thoughts on that. This would be a great area for me to develop. I'm really curious, what specifically should I be doing more of? And then conversely, what specifically should I be doing less of?
00:12:36
Speaker
You might also ask, I'm curious, are there other people who you think could give me good insight into what I could do to have this increased presence? That's one way. We can also get a good sense for our presence.
00:12:56
Speaker
by soliciting from people, sometimes anonymously, like create a little easy Google survey or whatever, what are three adjectives that you would choose to describe me? What comes into a room when I do? There's a lot of very open-ended questions that might be able to
00:13:20
Speaker
to help you just hone in on how are other people perceiving me. And then soliciting their ideas for how you could just do better in the future. The problem with feedback to us, this has passed. What's done is done. What we really need are ideas for how to do something better in the future.
00:13:42
Speaker
And so when I'm working with clients who are in this position of soliciting their own feedback, I'm always orienting them to make sure you're getting suggestions for the future. Because in part, it takes that other person that you're talking to out of the role of judge, which is very uncomfortable. Nobody likes giving harsh feedback. But you would list them as a partner, a brainstorming partner for what you could change or do differently.
00:14:11
Speaker
You're gonna effectively get the same information, but it makes it a lot more comfortable for them to share it because they're no longer judging you, they're providing ideas.
00:14:19
Speaker
such a fantastic tactic, turn them into a brainstorm partner. Yeah. Take the burden of the critical judge off of them. Right. Right. Thank you. I think those are fantastic tips. And I'm also thinking as you talk about the way that I think a key point of managing up is making sure to clarify and understand the feedback that's given to you. And sometimes depending on a manager's
00:14:48
Speaker
skill set there, managing up to that might require a lot of work in that direction. I imagine a coach is a fantastic tool because coaches can do that on your behalf if you're being coached a little bit. Is that right? Well, the way I would enter into that is I think that, you know, ultimately I leave a situation, right? I'll work with a client for however long.
00:15:13
Speaker
But I'm going to leave and they're still going to have these relationships at work. And so I never insert myself between my client and someone else. So I might lightly facilitate a conversation. I'll certainly brainstorm with my clients around how to approach different people or different things to try.
00:15:38
Speaker
across multiple different situations. It's interesting actually, because just this morning I was providing detailed stakeholder feedback to a client of mine and she really took issue with her manager's feedback. And so we're going to meet next week to strategize like how will she approach this person?
00:16:02
Speaker
Right? Like what are ways that she can have a productive conversation when she actually fully disagrees?
Role of a Coach vs. Boss or Mentor
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah. With the feedback and feels as though her manager is not in a position to actually see most of the work she does. Yeah. So, so I don't insert myself, but I am, I am, I am my client's advocate, like as long, you know, through and through. So,
00:16:32
Speaker
In that vein, what does a, well, there's probably a lot of things, but I'm curious for what you think about, what does a coach provide that a boss or even a mentor cannot provide? Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:47
Speaker
It's a very different relationship than, let's say, a relationship with your boss or a mentor, for that matter. So, you know, relative to someone's boss,
00:17:08
Speaker
And the boss may be a great coach, right? Because there's some leaders out there who are great coaches and care very much about that, hone that craft in themselves. But at the end of the day, that person is also the performance manager. They're also the decider of compensation and all that kind of good stuff. And so there's a conflict in there a little bit. And that does not exist for me.
00:17:35
Speaker
and my clients. I am there to support them in the goals that they choose, to provide my objective and third party perspective, and to be their advocate. My only agenda for my clients is the agenda they choose for themselves.
00:18:01
Speaker
This is not the case really with almost any other relationship that someone might have, right? Your boss has an agenda for you. Co-workers have an agenda for you. Your team has an agenda for you. HR has an agenda for you. Your family has an agenda for you. And they may all love and appreciate you deeply, but they still are not agenda free. And relative to a mentor, a mentor is really much more of like a teacher.
00:18:32
Speaker
A mentor is somebody who has walked your path before and can provide almost more guidance from that, been there, done that perspective. As a coach, I feel as though I am wearing multiple hats.
00:18:52
Speaker
One is definitely, you know, coaching in its most pure form is like the art of asking powerful questions that lead people to their own insights. I definitely wear this hat a lot. But then there's other times where I always just think about like, what's in the most service of my client? There are other times where sharing a free work or say, you know, here's what I'm observing.
00:19:17
Speaker
Um, you know, or I hear you saying this, but, um, whatever your, your body language is saying something else. Like what is going on for you? Right. Um, so there's lots of times where not just asking like pure, clean, curious questions, I think is going to be in greater service to my client, but I'll never say you need to go do this.
00:19:43
Speaker
But I'll provide lots of ideas cast as an invitation. You're guiding, not directing, and then occasionally, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It might be difficult to talk about in aggregate, but
00:20:01
Speaker
I'm curious about the themes that you might see in your work with clients and what you think in general are things that leaders or managers across the board are kind of needing to focus on right now.
Pandemic's Emotional Impact on Leadership
00:20:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think it actually goes back to some of what we talked about in the beginning, but I truly feel as though people are still healing from the pandemic. My work changed during the pandemic vis-a-vis the years beforehand.
00:20:34
Speaker
where I just saw in my clients, they were not as goal-directed. And that was a perfectly natural response to a situation that was very traumatic and very trying for leaders, right? It is hard to orient yourself around these higher level development goals when you feel as though you can barely keep your head above water and you are so tapped.
00:21:04
Speaker
from the demands, not just the sheer hours of the day, but the emotional load on leaders throughout the pandemic and still continuing to this day is high.
00:21:20
Speaker
Um, and so there's, there's, um, I, I think you'll see, I've got so much empathy for, for leaders, but there are these weird expectations on leaders that they're somehow superhuman, right? That they're made of something different, but at the end of the day, they're people.
00:21:39
Speaker
Um, and so leaders are challenged with burnout and at the same time they're being asked to support their whole team was like, I'm tapped out. Yeah. And, and so there's just, there's a lot, there's just a lot. And so, um,
00:21:57
Speaker
So coaching is not therapy, right? Like we're very much focused on creating a better tomorrow. But I have noticed that just the overall, I feel like the overall themes, if I were to look in aggregate across all of my sessions,
00:22:19
Speaker
There's more around being able to stay steady as the winds and the waves whip around you so that you can show up well and be there for your team.
00:22:36
Speaker
It's interesting that you say that because I don't think I'd wholly clocked this, but I think that what so much of your work that had resonated with me was like the emotional labor of being a leader.
Emotional Awareness in Leadership
00:22:48
Speaker
I loved that article.
00:22:51
Speaker
to the effect of how to not feel guilty about delegating and get into that was that I don't think there's a lot of content out there that does have empathy or the emotional side of leadership or not as much as I think there should be and I don't mean to
00:23:09
Speaker
be a leader, but oftentimes I feel, you know, you'll go on LinkedIn and sometimes it'll be flooded with like, kind of memes of like, people don't quit places, they quit bad bosses or, you know, you see something like that. I'm always like, sometimes yes, but also there's
00:23:34
Speaker
a plethora of other dynamics and things at play and leaders are so often I feel like not given, I don't even know where I'm going with this exactly, but the fact that sometimes you really tapped into guilt or the emotional burden and the challenges of leadership always really resonated with me. I really appreciate that about your content. Well, thank you. Honestly, it's my clients who
00:23:58
Speaker
kind of to meet with this insight. And I know anytime one of my clients is grappling with something, whether it is like, I feel really guilty, like I can't put anything more on my team. So I'm up until midnight, I'm working all weekends. I'm like, I know they're not the only person out there. I just know it profoundly. We all share this humanity. And if one of us is struggling with it,
00:24:25
Speaker
so many other people are and so um my clients are absolutely the inspiration for much much that i write about um and why it resonates for others is because i just know if one person is having a hard time with it so is someone else yes and
00:24:45
Speaker
Your work, I was one of the reasons I was so curious to talk to you is I thought that your writing has such exceptional insight into the more emotional side of management. I think awareness and
00:25:01
Speaker
working on and dealing with that part of it, at least for me, has always been kind of foundational to surviving and thriving in a leadership role. And I think in particular, in the emotional labor of being a leader and stop feeling guilty for delegating those two HBR articles.
00:25:19
Speaker
I know for myself, developing and maturing my emotional awareness was really, really key to developing into a better reader and learning how to more meaningfully connect with and support my teams. I was curious if that has in any way been part of your professional journey
00:25:40
Speaker
and what role like developing that emotional side of leadership has played in your success.
00:25:50
Speaker
You know, I truly believe that awareness is just the foundation to effectiveness. And there are multiple kinds of awareness. So, you know, emotional awareness is what you just alluded to. Absolutely that. Awareness of our strengths and weaknesses, right? Awareness of our...
00:26:16
Speaker
personality tendencies, awareness of what energizes us and what depletes us, awareness of what we stand for, you know, our values and what we will and won't tolerate. So all of this I think is really important awareness for any person. And it's part of really just
00:26:43
Speaker
I don't think there's a finish line. I think we can become more aware of ourselves throughout the course of our lifetime. And so, yes, this is something that is part of how I think about how I need to continually develop. Yeah, it's interesting.
00:27:09
Speaker
I think that one thing that is not talked about too much, but that I sound to be true, and I like to talk about a bit, is that it can be challenging, and you really have to be constantly facing yourself, aware of yourself, and aware of where you're falling short. But I feel like leadership is such a pathway toward self-development and becoming a more intentional version of your own self.
00:27:39
Speaker
while also helping others, hopefully, and not making it wholly just a self-improvement exercise. And I've always really liked that about your work. I guess one thing I should maybe ask is, so to delve into the emotional labor of being a leader, could you maybe just define for our audience emotional labor from your perspective?
Understanding Emotional Labor
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So emotional labor is
00:28:05
Speaker
centrally involves producing, quote unquote, the right feelings for your job. Okay, so it is evoking and suppressing emotions to meet the implicit or explicit expectations of your job.
00:28:25
Speaker
They are very often, for leaders in the business world, these are implicit expectations. But all organizations have these feeling rules, and they're so deeply embedded that we don't even notice them. But they exist.
00:28:43
Speaker
You know, some of the research around emotional labor, it actually started in the service sector. So it was first defined by the sociologist, Arleigh Hochschild, back in 1983. She wrote the seminal book called The Managed Heart.
00:29:00
Speaker
She was really focused on the service sector and most of the research was really focused there for years and years and years because you can think about it like service with a smile, right? Customers always write like it's just rife for kind of research around emotional labor and it wasn't until
00:29:21
Speaker
I believe it's 2008 that some of the first research on emotional labor and leaders occurred. So it's really actually still in its naysense. Wow. Something that I did, but thank you for that. I just wrote down the Mina's chart. I'm going to check that out. And as you're talking something,
00:29:41
Speaker
occurred to me which is that so I come from an agency background of marketing agencies and one thing that we talk about a bit and we've always found is that folks who maybe came from a service industry background like college or just out of school were fantastic fits and it was always like all right they can multitask they can hustle but I think there's also the other element to it of
00:30:10
Speaker
clients can be complex. Deadlines can be complex. Agencies are unique beasts in their own way. And it had a clear click for me, too, that there's also just the ability to, I suppose, in some ways, emotional laborers may be
00:30:26
Speaker
Repressing or saving for later your own feelings to be appropriate in the moment, is that also a way to describe it? Yeah, so sometimes you can engage in emotional labor and it's genuine, it's not a facade. So for example, perhaps you have someone on your team who's gone through some hard personal times. The expectation, right, is you show up with some empathy. Right. You might actually truly feel that.
00:30:54
Speaker
So that's emotional labor, right? Like you are showing up with empathy, it's an expectation of your role, but it's genuine, it's a facade. There's other times though, and this is really where the dilemma comes in, where how you feel and what you're expected to display are incongruent. So for example, you know, I was a management consultant.
00:31:18
Speaker
much earlier in my career and I'll never forget this one client who was just so offensive.
00:31:25
Speaker
and I'm like steaming inside. And at the same time, I know that I need to show up professional. I need to show up nice, respectful, regardless of the fact that I am not receiving that in return, right? And so I do, like I understand these expectations. No one has said them to me, but I, they are there. They, you know, I've read the tea leaves. I know exactly what I need to be doing. I shove my emotions down.
00:31:52
Speaker
I show up the way I should and I do it because I know this is not going to end well for me if I tell this person what a jerk they are. Right. And so, you know, I took solace in the fact like, you know, consulting projects end, right? Like I knew I would be leaving at some point. The problem with emotional labor when we are faking our emotions, it really comes in when we need to do it repeatedly.
00:32:19
Speaker
that is when we see some really, really negative outcomes for both individuals as well as organizations where this is sort of a more frequent thing that people need to be doing. So when one is required to have that disparity between how they feel and how they're showing up, if you have to do too much of that, what are the outcomes? What does happen?
00:32:44
Speaker
Yeah, so there's a lot of spillover to people's home lives. I'll start there. So we end up seeing more conflict at home. There's insomnia, aches, pains, illness, heavier drinking. And then within the workplace, what we see are sort of
00:33:08
Speaker
really two primary outcomes from when there's an amount of emotional labor. One is burnout, higher incidence of burnout. And on the flip side of that, emotional labor, it is labor, it is work. And it is work that taps into our self-control.
00:33:27
Speaker
When we deplete our self-control, we have less resources left and so we're also more likely to lash out at others. At work, it's like burnout or lash out by maybe saying a disparaging or belittling comment to a coworker that if we weren't so tapped, we would have had the self-control to keep those thoughts to ourselves.
00:33:53
Speaker
So significant outcomes for individuals, and these in turn, of course, have negative outcomes for organization in terms of engagement, turnover, productivity, financial performance. And that's why this article was really an argument that organization is, you need to recognize this work that your leaders are doing and support it, because it's very real and it's hard.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yes. So much of what you're saying is resonating with me. So in the article, you do give us some actionable advice and suggestions around what organizations can do to support their teams.
Supporting Emotional Labor in Organizations
00:34:37
Speaker
Could you talk a little bit about what those tips and tricks are?
00:34:41
Speaker
Yes. So from an organizational perspective, I'll just cue up to my next HBR article, assuming they accept it, is all about what individuals can do until their organizations catch up. So from an organizational perspective, what I would love to see is when they just recognize this.
00:35:03
Speaker
Like you don't see, you know, if you look at any job description or performance kind of form, you know, you don't see like performs emotional labor, right? Anywhere there. So it starts with just recognizing like this is very much a part of the work of leaders. And it matters so much leaders have an outsized impact on group nodes, emotional states, team climate,
00:35:32
Speaker
And this in turn affects financial performance and other key metrics for an organization. So start by just recognizing that this is something that leaders are doing and their work on this front is actually very important. Secondly, I would love to see more
00:35:58
Speaker
training and opportunities for leaders to fine-tune some of these emotional competencies. So if you think to, you know, I went to business school. There was nothing at my business school and it's a great business school that was really about
00:36:17
Speaker
sort of the emotional aspects of leadership and how do you handle these. I don't see them in leadership development programs and in organization. And so some training and workshops around and of developing on some of these
00:36:35
Speaker
higher emotional competencies would be great. And I'm not talking about just sort of like generic EQ, right? This is really important, of course. But more around some of these like specific emotional demands.
00:36:49
Speaker
And then one of the other things that I touch on in that article is really encouraging leaders to embrace self-compassion. So what I have found in my work with leaders is that many hesitate to embrace self-compassion. There's sort of a concern that, oh, if I, quote unquote, get soft on myself,
00:37:16
Speaker
I won't succeed. This is actually what's gotten me to this place, this drive. What we see from the research is, sure, you can be driven, but treating yourself with the kindness you would extend a friend unlocks so much more. Well, it unlocks a kinder day for yourself. It also really unlocks a lot of performance benefits.
00:37:45
Speaker
That is really interesting. I think I definitely have found that true for myself. I can have a really strong.
00:37:52
Speaker
in our critic. And I think that in the early stages of my career, first few years as a manager, that I drill really strong results. But as critical as I was to myself, I was also sometimes hypercritical of the teams I was managing and I wanted perfection. And the moment I started to learn more and embrace some self compassion, I was able to like, more naturally, more naturally extend grace to my teams, and then was able to actually develop these really
00:38:19
Speaker
fulfilling and much more meaningful and also impactful relationships, I think. So I think it is really powerful, but I also understand and say people are like, it's kind of like you're afraid of people. Well, I was afraid to like lose my edge in a way. Exactly. That's exactly it. But you're not alone with that
00:38:42
Speaker
that sort of recognition like, gosh, the more compassionate I am to myself, the more compassionate I can extend to others. And I now have this improved relationship with my, like, it is, it works both ways. These two things are linked. Yeah. And I'm, well,
00:39:04
Speaker
I don't want to get too far down the rabbit hole or ramble, but as you're talking, there's one thing I'm thinking about, which is that I think at a certain point as a leader, you have to choose. You mentioned psychological safety much earlier in the conversation, saying that managers need to be able to create and part of an executive, a competent executive presence, I think.
00:39:25
Speaker
And I think that at times managers are holding the tension between having self-compassion, though high standards for themselves, creating a psychologically safe environment for their teams, but then also knowing
00:39:42
Speaker
they are ultimately responsible for the end result and like kind of, you know, it's on them if there is a mistake and they need to own their team's mistakes as opposed to making their teams worry about making a mistake. Yeah. Not totally articulate, but there's the gap there. And I feel like that risk is the tension of leadership sometimes. Yes. I agree. Well, so I,
00:40:15
Speaker
So if anyone has not read the emotional labor of being a leader, especially if you're our manager, we will link to it in the show notes. And I really highly recommend that. One thing I'm curious about, Dina, is that in our current environment, so you mentioned things have changed so much since COVID. Yeah.
00:40:35
Speaker
What do you think leaders need to be mindful of right now for themselves, for their teams, and what do they need to be bringing to the table that wasn't necessary five years ago? Oh boy, yes. So I think the workplace has gone through some profound shifts.
00:40:58
Speaker
in the last few years in terms of what leaders need to be bringing to the table. The expectations on them now for demonstrating empathy and compassion, offering so much flexibility, those are higher and I don't disagree with that.
00:41:27
Speaker
But the ask on those fronts is higher of leaders now than it was a number of years ago. And like you were just mentioning, the expectation they deliver results has not changed at all. And in fact, oftentimes they're being asked to deliver these results with even less resources. So there is a real squeeze.
00:41:55
Speaker
So you've said you've got another article that might be coming out. I will immediately read if it gets published. Maybe this is a little insider baseball, but really curious about what is HBR's process? What is it like to write a piece of content for them? From start, picture assignment, to collaboration, editing, publication, what is that process like for you as a writer?
Writing for Harvard Business Review
00:42:20
Speaker
So the process for me as a writer is I
00:42:24
Speaker
I have an idea and I've written enough now that I just spot articles. I don't need to stop and think, what can I really write about? I just spot opportunities for articles that I think could be interesting.
00:42:45
Speaker
HBR wants to make sure, of course, that the content, not just that you have standing in the content, but that it's fresh. And so when I have an idea for an article, one of the first things I do is I make sure that nothing's been published on it in HBR in the last few years. Because if it has, like, there's no reason for me to spend time writing them a pitch. Right.
00:43:08
Speaker
So then, assuming it has not been published on and I have a unique angle into a topic, like for example, that stopped feeling guilty about delegating, if you go and look at HBR, there are tons of articles about delegating and letting go and all that kind of good stuff, but there was not one on guilt as an obstacle. That made it a unique piece.
00:43:38
Speaker
So then I'll write up a pitch, um, where I'm sort of presenting the frame, some, maybe some key points I'll flesh out in my article, um, and why I think it's compelling. Um, so it's, it's almost like any other pitch you might make in your work, right? Like you're trying to sell someone on your, on your idea, right? Um, and I'll send my pitch off to the editor that I work with. Um,
00:44:07
Speaker
There's a team of people at HBR who will consider these pitches, and then I'll receive some feedback that, yeah, it looks really interesting, would love to see a draft. Or, interesting, but have you thought about A, B, or C?
00:44:28
Speaker
Or, thank you very much, but no thanks, right? So it tends to be sort of one of these three responses, and then I will work on crafting my draft. And for me, I give myself a good week to write an article because I really like to let it breathe, and I'm a big fan of letting my own conscious do a lot of work for me.
00:44:51
Speaker
Yeah, and so I'll write for a little bit and I'll put it away and then things just come to me. Maybe I'm taking a walk or I'm in the shower or driving or whatever. I'm like, oh, you know, and I didn't have to expect enough to use any effort to kind of get to that new idea or way to think about something. And so I'll come back to it and, you know, work on it for a couple more hours and
00:45:14
Speaker
And just fine tune it. I really try to get it to as good of a place as I can before I send it off to my editor. And then I'll typically receive a little bit of feedback. I might make some changes if they're requested. And then it ends up kind of going into, it goes through another round of editing on the HBR level and gets into the queue.
00:45:42
Speaker
It's so, well, thank you for that. It kind of demystifies it. I'm such a nerd about their content. I'm really happy to know that. But it's so funny you mentioned about your unconscious because I think I slightly compartmentalize guests for the show. I'll be like, Dina, we're going to talk about business and leadership. And then they'll be like, all right, you're talking about creative process. But
00:46:05
Speaker
I think one of the toughest things about tight deadlines is you cannot give your unconscious enough space to like help you out there. Could you just say a little bit more about what you mean by that and how you let your unconscious kind of guide your work a bit? Yeah. So, um, it actually, there's a lot of science, um, that, that supports this. This is not just like my weird little hack. Um, but we, we tend to, if you even just think about like when you have those aha moments,
00:46:35
Speaker
I mean, you are not actively focused on trying to solve the problem, right? They come out of nowhere and it's like, yeah, like I've got it, right? Yeah. And then it's because you're no longer, when we actively focus on trying to solve a problem, we kind of get tunnel vision. Yeah. We get tunnel vision on that.
00:46:55
Speaker
we're engaging certain networks in our brain that are very task-oriented. For an insight to bubble up, basically what's happening is things are like, and I'm not a neuroscientist, but you have all of these neurons and things are connecting in different ways. When you finally allow your prefrontal cortex,
00:47:19
Speaker
to quiet down by not actively focusing, right? Like you're taking a walk, you're in the shower, you're driving.
00:47:28
Speaker
it allows these insights to bubble up. They can actually rake through. If you tend to be in a slightly positive state, this further promotes that. I love taking walks. I feel great when I'm out there with my dog. It's just nice. I actually find a lot of ideas come to me then.
00:47:50
Speaker
And so I'll whip out my iPhone and leave myself a little voice message to capture my thoughts so I can weave them in the next time I'm back at it. So that's really the way I think about it. So I really do try to give myself space so that some of these interesting connections that maybe I wouldn't have been able to make can come through.
00:48:18
Speaker
Are you working on any other projects outside of that upcoming article?
Upcoming Book Announcement
00:48:22
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm actually super excited because I'm about to sign a book contract.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yes, and so this is going to be actually with my co-author from the article around the emotional labor of being a leader, which thank you for all your kind comments on that. Yeah, so we've got a larger project that we're about to undertake together, and I'm really excited for this adventure with her.
00:48:53
Speaker
That is awesome and also news for me as a reader. I'm so excited for that. Good luck. Not that you need it, but... I'll take it. Have you ever written a book before or a long four piece of content or is this your first foray into that? No, this is my first go. But I've been around enough authors at this point to know like,
00:49:16
Speaker
One, I feel confident I can do it, but two, I know it is not going to be easy at all. So I'm getting myself ready for it. Congratulations. I'm so happy to hear that. Thank you. But in our last few minutes together, I guess one question I have, which I also asked of Ellen, a previous leadership coach guest, would be,
00:49:41
Speaker
Is there ever times where you think an individual is considering coaching, but actually, that is not the solution to the problem they're trying to solve? Yeah, yeah, I do.
00:49:56
Speaker
I tend to think that coaching can be helpful really for anyone. For people to have dedicated white space to think out loud, kind of get their thoughts clear, be able to kind of like focus on things that maybe otherwise get always pushed to the back burner. I think coaching can be helpful for anybody. But when I'm meeting with people to assess whether
00:50:19
Speaker
we might be a good fit to work together. They're, of course, assessing me. I'm also assessing them to see, would this person be a good fit for me and my coaching? And when I'm thinking about that, what I'm looking for, is this person, are they willing to look inside?
00:50:41
Speaker
are they willing to sort of like own their piece of the situation, right? Or are they just choosing to adopt somewhat of a victim mentality and just blame other people for the circumstances? So I'm looking at that because a willingness to accept that we are partially at least responsible for
00:51:10
Speaker
For our lives and our circumstances and the futures we create, it's fundamentally important to getting something out of coaching, as well as an open-mindedness to trying things differently. We all exist predominantly in our habits, and sometimes those habits were really effective.
00:51:30
Speaker
at a time and now they have, they no longer serve. And so I'm also really trying to observe like, is this person open to trying different things, doing things differently? Because that's also important. You know, it's that proverbial like, if you want to get different results, you need to do things differently. Yeah. So to effectively engage with coaching, you have to be willing to be coached and be coachable, essentially. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
00:52:00
Speaker
And I also, and then finally, I look for people who are very, they're very committed to their excellence, but also hold themselves lightly. I think it is so possible to shoot for the moon and have a good laugh at yourself all at the same time. Because we all make mistakes, we all fall down, and it's just part of being human.
00:52:28
Speaker
That makes a lot
Choosing the Right Coach
00:52:29
Speaker
of sense. I find it's just really good life advice too, so thank you. Well, is there anything, Dina, that you think I maybe should have asked that would be interesting for listeners about coaching or some of the topics we touched on that you'd want to share before we wrap up? Christian, I would just say if people out there are considering coaching, talk to a few coaches.
00:52:53
Speaker
because each coach is going to have their own unique style. They're going to bring different things to the table. And ultimately you want to find someone that you really like working with and who you feel like has the capacity and is equipped to help you in the things that you care about shifting the most.
00:53:18
Speaker
Okay, thank you. So if someone wanted to get in touch with you and reach out, what would be the best places to do that? Well, I would love if people wanted to connect on LinkedIn. So easy to find me there, Dina Denham-Smith. And then similarly, online, you know, my website actually has two, there are two different ways of finding me, but you can just do dinasmith.com. That'll take you there.
00:53:45
Speaker
And those are really the best ways. And my website, if you like what you see and you want to get in touch, there's a contact form. And there's a number of also free resources there for leaders. So you can just get on and download some stuff that maybe would be helpful too.
00:54:07
Speaker
All right, well, we can put all those in the show notes, and I cannot wait for your book to come out. It's going to be a way for me to vicariously spend more time with you. So, like, you sound like that. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. I have one more article recommendation for you just based on the one that you seem to orient yourselves to. I wrote an article last year, and it was for HBR Ascend, but it's about compassion fatigue, and I think you'll love it.
00:54:36
Speaker
All right, I'm going to check it out and we can throw that one in the show notes too. Thank you so much. Yeah. All right. Okay, good. Well, thank you. All right, everyone. Hope you enjoyed our chat with Dina. We'll be coming to you next week with an interview with Liv Albert, creator of the Hit Podcast. Let's talk about myths, baby.
00:54:58
Speaker
Ooh, I like that, Ian. To support the show, you can rate, review, and subscribe. Those things make a huge difference. And if you like today's conversation, you'll probably like the Content People newsletter. Subscribe at the link in the show notes. And that's it, folks. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to get in touch, you can always email us at contentpeople at brafton.com.