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Stepford Wives
17 Plays2 years ago
EPISODE 2! Katie and Carly discuss both the 1975 and 2005 movie adaptations of Ira Levin’s novel Stepford Wives, girl boss feminism and ponder about what movie is the Stepford Wives equivalent for the modern era.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode and 'Stepford Wives'
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to What Haunts You, a podcast about the stories that haunt our dreams. I'm Katie. And I'm Carly. Welcome to episode two. We're going to be talking about both movie adaptations of Stepford Wives. So that'll be the 75 adaptation in the 2004. It's an adaptation of the novel by Ira Levin.
00:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, the wonderful novel that I highly recommend. Yeah, it's a pretty quick read and definitely good. I did try to read it again for this discussion, but I lost track of time and didn't, but it's, I know I read it in like a day before. Yeah, it goes by pretty quickly. I think, and it's just interesting. It's like interesting enough to keep you kind of invested.
Synopsis of 'Stepford Wives'
00:00:53
Speaker
But yeah, so the kind of basic story is right. It's about a couple who moves to a new neighborhood called Stepford where everything is very like polished. It's exactly what you picture when you picture like kind of classic suburbia. And the woman starts to notice that something is not quite right. So in thinking about the original movie, the 75 adaptation, what were your
00:01:20
Speaker
kind of initial thoughts about it when you watched it.
Initial Impressions of Adaptations
00:01:23
Speaker
So I saw the 2004 one first. I think I saw it like around when it came out and then I read the book and then I watched the 2004 one again fairly recently and then I watched the 1975 one. So I feel like that I just want to set up how I was going into it.
00:01:48
Speaker
I felt like it moved kind of slowly at some points, but it definitely was spookier to me. Like it actually has way more core elements as I liked it. I thought that the story was more interesting and less predictable than the new one, even though the new one has like one big twist that I forgot about every time I watched it.
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah. How did you feel about it? I really liked it. I actually, which I feel like this is rare for older movies and books, but I actually did read the book first. And I really liked the original movie because I just felt like the tone was very like true to the book. I felt like it translated really, really well in a way that I really liked. Yeah. And really liked the actor playing Joanna in the original.
00:02:43
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I think a lot of my impression of both films was based on knowing or not knowing the actors and like the 2004 one, everybody in it was pretty much a big name and people who I had seen play other roles and seen interviews and stuff.
00:03:03
Speaker
I know that people in the 1975 one were all like pretty big at the time, but they're not people who I know. And I think that that actually lets me fully embrace the character more. And like, what is that saying that I can't think of like, like remove myself from reality? Yeah.
00:03:21
Speaker
Yeah, like it helps you buy into the movie. Right. Yeah, that makes sense.
Exploration of Gender Dynamics in Stepford
00:03:26
Speaker
So I want to kind of like set up the first movie with a quote from really early on in the story, where they are settling into their new house in Stepford, Joanna and Walter.
00:03:39
Speaker
And he is like informing her that Stepford has a men's association where all of the men kind of go basically every night it seems like and leave their wives at home with their kids and to clean the house and all of that. I thought it was interesting in the
00:03:56
Speaker
original, the 1975 one, we hear about the Men's Association, but we don't really see it at all until the end, whereas we're kind of in and out of there in the new one. Yeah. Yeah, they're a lot sneakier in the new one, I would say.
00:04:14
Speaker
But yeah, so as he is telling her about this, she looks at him and she says, I give up on you. Why don't you ever just once tell me the truth? You pretend that we decide things together, but it's always you, what you want. You asked me if I wanted to move out here and I found you'd already been looking at a house. You asked me if I like this place and I found you'd already made a down payment. Now you're asking me about the lousy men's association and it's quite obvious you've already joined. Why bother to ask me at all?
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like Ira Levin would agree with the modern statement that men are trash. I think so too.
00:04:51
Speaker
I think so too. And I think that this quote really kind of sums up the type of dynamic we're looking at in the relationships in this movie of like the men as the head of household and the women as the support, right? And like she is there to kind of do what he wants and to like enable him to do what he wants. Right. And not just support, but like subordination explicitly. Yeah.
00:05:14
Speaker
Absolutely. And there's another scene where he's kind of like sitting and drinking alone and she wakes up and sees that he's not in bed and she goes down and she's looking for him and he's like, if nothing, nothing, everything is fine. And she's like, it's not fine. I was worried. Walter, I love you, but you expect me to be a mind reader. And he looks at her and he goes,
00:05:36
Speaker
I love you." He says it like he's realizing it almost, and this is after we know he's gone over to the Men's Association. I'm very curious. I think, okay, spoiler alert, all the women are animatronics instead.
00:05:52
Speaker
And I'm very curious, is it the first day he goes that they tell him that this is what's going on? How early does he know for sure that this is what's happening? And in that moment, rewatching it, or even the first time since I knew the story, I was finding myself very curious as to, is he in that moment trying to decide? I actually don't remember that scene specifically, but I know they have all the men
00:06:21
Speaker
maybe not all of them but there were like quite a few men that came over to their house and one of them is like making a portrait of Joanna and I think that he's like a famous artist or something so she's like very flattered but it's like part of how they're making the animatronics and that I think was at least towards the front half of the movie
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah, and he definitely seemed in on it and like aware at that point. Yeah, it's definitely quick. And yeah, so somebody is sketching her somebody else says that they are doing a research project on accents and get her to record like a list of many, many words.
00:07:03
Speaker
and she meets Diz, he used to work at Disneyland, and she says that that is hard to believe because he does not seem like a person who likes making people happy, to which he says, like, how little you know. Yeah, and one of the big things that stuck out to me was that Joanna's husband, like, right after we moved there, they meet Carol Van Sant, which is their neighbor. She has, like, a different name for, like, the person who's pretty much playing the same role in the new one.
00:07:33
Speaker
But when Walter meets Carol Van Zandt's husband, they're both getting the mail or something. And he's like, I met your wife earlier. She cooks as good as she looks. I feel like that phrase is very, that could be their catchphrase. Yeah, a wild thing to say.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, and she also meets Bobby, who is another newer resident to Stepford, who is not yet animatronic. And when Bobby sees her house, she's like, oh, a messy kitchen. It's beautiful. It's a home away from home. And they're so happy to be interacting with each other, because whenever they talk to any of the other women, it's just about housework and raising children and cleaning.
00:08:19
Speaker
And nobody has anything to say. Right. Like Jo wanted to hang out with Carol Van Sant the first day. I think she was like, come over for some tea. And she was like, oh, I just can't. I have to wax the floors. Right. Right. Exactly. And anytime we like visit any of the houses, the women are kind of like cleaning or taking a break from cleaning or getting food ready or, you know, doing whatever.
Critique of Traditional Gender Roles
00:08:41
Speaker
And it is all that they can seem to focus on, right? And anytime they try to kind of like Bobby and Joanna try to draw them into anything else, they just kind of come back to that.
00:08:52
Speaker
But there's a really interesting moment where Bobby and Joanna are walking around. And this is, I think this is at the party. Joanna is saying to Bobby, like, this is also amazing. Why don't I like it? I mean, I like it. It's perfect. How could you not like it? But I don't like it. And she's trying to kind of sort through, like, why is this so perfect? But I still am not happy here.
00:09:15
Speaker
right? Like, why is this is what we all are supposed to want? Is this so unsatisfying? Yeah, and I just think about, right, like, this is obviously like an extreme, but I do think about like, how many, how many women who kind of give up themselves to be a wife and mother have that kind of thought process of like, this is what I was like, trained for, right? This is what I'm supposed to want. Why
00:09:38
Speaker
Why am I not okay with this, right? Why can't I embrace this the way that I'm supposed to? Yeah, I feel like a level of that is sort of normal. Like even when you do get something that you really want, like it's maybe not the way that you envisioned it, but this is like definitely beyond that and not, I mean,
00:09:58
Speaker
a lot of these women, we find out later, were involved in the women's associations and stuff like that. And then when they try to start a women's association in Stepford, they end up just talking about cleaning products.
00:10:15
Speaker
That scene is so heartbreaking to me because the three women who are actually still just human women are being really vulnerable. One of them is talking about how I don't think my husband ever loved me.
00:10:33
Speaker
You know, that's like a pretty, that's like a heavy thing. And then the, you know, the rest of the Stepford wives just kind of devolve and it almost sounds like an ad like they're talking about this product called easy off and one of them basically sounds like she is quoting like an advertisement. And you kind of see like,
00:10:53
Speaker
the three women's faces just drop like, oh, even if we do this, we can't really do this. And I just think about the sinking feeling you get when you have relief of being in a space that's full of all women, but then realizing how invested in the patriarchy the women around you are.
00:11:15
Speaker
and realizing that sometimes it doesn't even matter if there are men around because women are doing men's jobs for them. Yeah, I feel like that is something that is just kind of in the air in the first one and is very explicitly the message of the second one.
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think, and it's funny because that scene, the thing that really comes into my head is my very, very brief time being in a sorority and you're surrounded. What? You were in a sorority? Oh my god, I know. I know.
00:11:50
Speaker
very, very briefly. I was for like about a year. And that is really what it was like. It was like, this should be so nice. Like I'm surrounded by women. I'm like supposed to be close with all of these people. Like this is so supposed to be nice. Why don't I like it? You know what I mean? But why I didn't like it is because of this. Like it wasn't cleaning and cooking, but it was like,
00:12:12
Speaker
how many calories are in your food at like the student center and like make sure you bring like a cute boy to this party and like it was just very much like the same feeling of like even if I'm surrounded by women I cannot escape all of this.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yep, yeah, I think like a lot of different kinds of oppression count on people of the group that's being marginalized buying into and pushing it forward. Yeah, and I think that that is the feeling that was in the scene with the Women's Club meeting for me for sure. Yeah, that meeting also, like you were saying, it sounded like an ad when they were talking about it. It kind of reminded me of Tupperware parties,
00:12:55
Speaker
where I think that's sort of the first thing that has evolved into various forms of multi-level marketing, where women are leveraging their social relationships to turn into walking ads. Yeah, it definitely had that vibe for sure.
00:13:14
Speaker
There is also I think maybe this is a good time to just like in general talk a little bit about like the idea of white flight because I do think that's like very central to both of the movies. Totally. There's like a scene where an older woman who I think is widowed and is still seemingly like a human woman is like very proud of the town because like the first black family is like moving into Stepford and
00:13:43
Speaker
She's like, it's about time that this is happening. We shouldn't be stuck like this or whatever. But really thinking about just the realness of that and how interesting it is for a movie back then to kind of name this really explicitly of this is a stupid thing that's happened.
00:14:08
Speaker
And this is not really okay. I feel like for the time period it's interesting to me that that was addressed directly. Yeah.
Themes of Race and Aging in Stepford
00:14:17
Speaker
They don't have the Black family in the new one, which I was wondering why they were doing that. They seem to have replaced them with a gay couple.
00:14:28
Speaker
And I mean, I do think in early 2000s, a lot of the messaging that I was getting as a kid was like, racism is over, which is definitely not true. And especially talking about segregation ending, and there is like hella segregation still. I mean, obviously racism is still a major issue and affects every aspect of life, but it's
00:14:55
Speaker
just so gross and I don't understand like wanting to live in a completely white area. Yeah.
00:15:04
Speaker
And especially in the 70s, so much of it was hidden in zoning laws and things like that. Yeah, I was just going to say, there was a lot of little ways that they would, not little really, big ways that they would find to basically just set it up so that things would filter in that way on their own. And Stepford definitely seems to be that type of place. All of the houses are quite large. They all seem to be on quite a substantial little bit of land.
00:15:33
Speaker
Right. Like there's not any kind of like denser housing for anyone who might have less money. Like it's definitely like. You have to be high income to live there. Right. Right. And so it is definitely like, it's like peak white flight, right? Like it's just, they're like, let us get to this little perfect town where like nothing is going to be wrong and we'll be away from the city.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah, one of the phrases that kept coming up when I was reading about this era and White Flight was quote unquote bedroom communities, which is I guess what they called them, which sounds like something sexual or romantic to me, but I guess it just means like places out of the city where people would go and they pretty much would just sleep there and then they would commute into the city for work.
00:16:28
Speaker
Wow, that makes so much sense. I've heard that phrase before and didn't know what it meant. And like having grown up in the suburbs, that like makes so much sense to me. Wow. Okay. Eye opening moment there. Yeah. So, but there is that interesting scene where she's kind of bragging that a black family is finally moving into Stepford and like, we don't see too much of them. We see them at the very end.
00:16:57
Speaker
as like the, will this happen to them or won't this happen to them kind of set up. But it is just interesting to see that there is this kind of older woman, liberal figure who is somehow separate from this, but still lives in Stepford. And what an interesting thing it is that she even exists in this story.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, she does seem kind of like outside of the rest of the narrative. And I kind of think she's like a symbol of the, well, I guess a symbol of progress, but kind of like the anti-Stepford wife.
00:17:36
Speaker
Right. Well, and I think it raises an interesting question of A, obviously what happens if somebody is widowed, right? And she was probably widowed before this was happening. And then I think something that I actually thought about watching this time, watching both of the movies this time, is we know what happens to Stepford wives, but what happens to Stepford daughters? I was thinking about that so much too. What age
00:18:02
Speaker
are they like okay now you can't be a human anymore because there seems to be like they're very loving to the children but they're also very separated but I know in the older one like the kids you see the kids get on the bus and the kids don't seem right like they definitely seem like they're already animatronics or like
00:18:25
Speaker
manipulated in some way. They don't seem normal. And Joanna and Walter's kids definitely notice it when they get on the bus. It's less obvious than the new one. Yeah. I think that they just seem like the exact picture I have in my head of overly well-behaved suburban children who don't really get to be children.
00:18:48
Speaker
And it is kind of weird and off-putting. Yeah. It was noticeable to me that they're like,
00:18:57
Speaker
there aren't any teenagers, so you pretty much like only see the stage of life that's like childhood specifically and then adulthood. And then I was thinking with that older woman also that like part of it is that men stop caring about you when you're older. Not like, I mean, if you're in a loving relationship, hopefully not that person, but like in general. Men like the men in Stanford. Right. Yeah. If like,
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah. If you are being cared about only because of your looks, then age, like age is such a huge thing in the beauty industry and in society in general, like that, like trying to keep yourself young. And once you're old, you're like no longer of value because you've lost your beauty. Yeah, that is actually a good point. So they like might've not even cared if she was like already a certain age when they were doing this.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good, that is a really good point. Yeah, it is interesting. We only do see like a couple of different ages. It does seem like all the kids are like kind of like 12 and under and then all the adults are kind of like in the same stage of adulthood. Yeah, I actually, as I was like going through my notes, I scrolled on Instagram and found an ad for Brooke Shields.
00:20:20
Speaker
memoir documentary. I think she released a memoir and then has a documentary that's like kind of based on it. But one of the things that somebody was saying was they were talking about how sexualized she was when she was very young. And one of the people who were interviewed said that as a response to feminism, men started sexualizing women younger and younger to manipulate them. But I feel like sexualization of women started
00:20:48
Speaker
and like of children, of little girls started way before that. But I do think like the more progress feminism has made, there's always like, I want to say flashback, but that's not it. But is it a pushback? Like snapbacks? Yeah, snapbacks. There's words are hard.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah, but there's always some sort of retaliation against it. Yeah, exactly. It shows up in diet culture too. Maybe we'll get to that at some point. Right, right, right. Oh yeah, I wanted to talk about how in the old one, Joanna had a therapist. I thought that was really interesting and her therapist was like, you should probably leave, girl. Yeah, yeah, she does. Well, she goes to a psychiatrist because the husband basically is like, you're being crazy.
00:21:37
Speaker
And she really understands what's happening, even if she doesn't know the mechanisms of it. She says to the therapist, there will be someone with my name and she'll cook and she'll clean like crazy, but she won't take pictures and she won't be me.
00:21:55
Speaker
And this is shortly after she's seen her closest friend in Stafford be changed. And so it's just so sad. Oh, it is. I thought it was before that, but I guess. No, it's OK. So Bobby and her before that both go to see her ex, who's a scientist, because Bobby has heard about how there's a town that they have lithium in the water, so everyone's calm. And so they get the water to have it tested.
00:22:21
Speaker
to see if it's something like that, because they're like, these people are not right. And the guy is like, oh, you're obviously coming to see me because you're unhappy in your marriage. But one of the things that I really admire about the women in this story, and like, I think probably one of the reasons why the 1975 one is my preferred one is like, all of the women just seem like so smart, so level headed and calm. I mean, like the ones that aren't animatronics already.
00:22:53
Speaker
But they're just like, I don't know, they're real people, which is like even still something that's somewhat hard to find as a presentation of women in movies. Yeah. Yeah, very true. Like they all have like hobbies and interests and like big personalities.
00:23:12
Speaker
And I think part of it is because if they didn't, it wouldn't showcase the change as much. You know what I mean? It's kind of necessary in a story like this for them to be more fleshed out so that we can really feel the tragedy of them being gone. Yeah. The contrast. Yeah. So we were talking about when she finds Bobby, I think
00:23:41
Speaker
that scene, isn't it? That kind of got mushed into a different place in the first one. I'm not sure where it is in the book, but doesn't she go to Bobby after she is hiding from her husband and they have the big fight? Yeah, so Joanna tells Walter that she's gonna leave and he basically physically attacks her.
00:24:02
Speaker
which very typical, I would say. And then she goes over to Bobby's to try to figure out what the hell is happening here. And she cuts her hand open and is like, when you cut me, I bleed. What happens if I cut you? And she stabs her in the stomach. I know. She fully stabs her in the stomach. I was like, why didn't you cut her hand also? What if she was a human?
00:24:28
Speaker
I know, I was like, you were really, I mean, it was very obvious that something was wrong, but I was like, you were really confident that this was like not a fixable thing because you just really went for it. For real. Yeah, the scene before she goes to her though, like that, that like when she's in her house and I think she like hears Walter on the phone and they're like talking about how they're going to change her or like get her and they're like, we already have the kids, everything's in place.
00:24:57
Speaker
That scene, it hurts me. That's actually a scene out of a horror movie, which I think a lot of it is pretty neutral before that. Yeah.
00:25:14
Speaker
And I think one of the really sad parts is the next step in that is that they basically lure her to where they need her to be with clips, recordings of her children calling her, which I think is so cruel. That is just so cruel to have your kids yelling for their mom.
00:25:35
Speaker
and you're looking for them and you got there and it's just a recording and she just like obviously realizes that like she has been had. Prime example of men being trash. Totally. Well, and something funny this time. So first of all, I think not really funny, but I watched this movie like only a day or two after I was rewatching us, the Jordan Peele movie with a friend who hadn't seen it yet and
00:26:00
Speaker
then watching this movie shortly after, I was just thinking about how absolutely fucking scary the idea of being murdered by someone or something that looks exactly like you.
00:26:13
Speaker
would be like, that's just like, there's something so scary about like the idea of like seeing yourself outside of like a mirror or a photograph. You know what I mean? Like that is like such a scary thought in general. And then like the reason it's scary I think is because of stuff like this, right? Of like, what do you do if there's two of us standing here? And it's just so scary.
Horror of Identity Replacement
00:26:35
Speaker
It's just when she, especially she's like looking at this version of her like,
00:26:39
Speaker
getting up and like just coming towards her. It's just so scary. That's true. I hadn't thought about the relation to us. And it's also interesting to me because I feel like I've always thought like, if there was another one of me, we'd be friends. But like, I think that would feel like an extra betrayal if I was like, Oh, me, my friend, and then they were trying to kill me. Yeah.
00:27:05
Speaker
And then I didn't know, I didn't know exactly like where to bring this up, but I just like want to talk about the boobs for a second, because all of the wives in Stepford, like all of the Stepford wives, the ones that have been like, quote unquote, upgraded, whatever the fuck.
00:27:23
Speaker
you, however you define that, like they all just have these like big perky boobs that they didn't have before. And I'm just like, that's just so, it's like one of those things that is like so cliche, but like also just rings so true. Now I just have Beyonce's upgrade you stuck in my head.
00:27:45
Speaker
totally different vibe though. But yeah, the boobs are like a major symbol of being hyper feminine, I think, for them. But yeah, it's also just like, I feel like all of these men just want to be taking care of like babies. And that's like they're part of the obsession with boobs. But they want to be they want like a sexy mommy.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, which I think is just true of very many men in this world. Yep. I think that kind of relates to something that I think is really important. This is kind of jumping ahead a bit. But in the remake where they're talking about how the husband in the remake doesn't go through with it, and they're like, why would you do this? And she's like, because he's a real man. He doesn't need a sexy mom. Yeah. I don't know. That didn't hit for me. I was just kind of like,
00:28:41
Speaker
Oh, I don't know. I scoffed. Oh, really? That's it? Wait, can you can you tell me more about that? I think it was just like two on the nose for me a little bit. And I think also like they're trying to do this like redemptive arc for men through Walter. And I'm not sure if he deserves that like it's like, he's getting like all these props just for like not murdering her.
00:29:09
Speaker
I don't know. That was the feeling I was left with. Like, yeah, you just did the thing that you were supposed to do, bud. Yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think that the within the twist of the remake, that is probably my favorite line in it, but I still don't love the twist overall. Well, I guess should we do you want to kind of talk about like the differences you noticed between the original and the remake? Yeah, so I think I'm just kind of go through a similar but point out where things are different. I mean, like the first scene is like one of the biggest differences we see she's like,
00:29:43
Speaker
a high powered executive for a TV company and she's introducing the new slate of shows and one of them is called I Can Do Better. I think there's like a few things. It's like very early 2000s. There's like one show that has Meredith Vieira, who was the host of So You Want to Be a Millionaire.
00:30:07
Speaker
like a few other things and then the in I can do better they like set up it actually really reminded me of the show Temptation Island which is like a current dating show it's a little different because like they the couples in Temptation Island are just like separated and then they're all with people and in I can do better I think they said that they were like specifically with I think they used the phrase professional prostitutes
00:30:36
Speaker
And at the end, the man is like, I hung out in the hot tub and like this lady was really sexy, but I love my wife and I want to be with her. And then the wife is like, I've never had an experience like this and I just like got tended to the whole time.
00:30:56
Speaker
And, uh, I think I can do better. And then pretty soon after this, we're like back in the auditorium where she's giving the speech. The show is like on a screen and the man from that show shows up with a gun and he is like, I have an idea for a new show. It's called let's kill all the women. And I was like, Oh, that's like, I mean, first of all, just.
00:31:25
Speaker
very bold opening, but that was like, that is a lot of men's response to women having power in general. Yeah, it makes me think of the, oh, I forget his name, but there was like a mass shooter who made
00:31:43
Speaker
like a video in his call beforehand basically talking about how he was doing this because he wanted to kill all the women because he could not get a woman. It's a real thing. And I remember when they were introducing the show, she says that it's the final gender challenge. And I was like, oh, that's interesting wording. And they're really setting us up for this.
00:32:10
Speaker
And the show is pretty much exemplifying men feeling emasculated and women are feeling bored and restrained. Well, and feeling emasculated specifically by like women's sexuality. And then when you shoot, I thought this was like kind of on the nose also, but I liked it where he like literally breaks the glass ceiling over her.
00:32:35
Speaker
I didn't even think about that. The shards are coming down at her and Wanda almost hits her. I assume that they thought of the metaphor in there, but maybe it was just a coincidence. Then the next scene we see her, she's walking into her office and she's like, oh yeah, I'm a boss.
00:32:59
Speaker
She sits down and she learns that that man before he came there had killed his wife, or I think she was in critical condition, but he had shot her five boyfriends. And Joanna like barely flinches. She like, she doesn't even really seem that traumatized from the shooting that happened to her. And she's just like, okay, so we'll pay their insurance bills.
00:33:24
Speaker
And then we'll have a live reunion where we heal them and bring them together. And the woman who's talking to her is like, no, no, no, you don't get it. We're firing you because then we can just sweep this all under the rug. And that's like kind of when she loses it because her.
00:33:43
Speaker
whole identity is her job, pretty much. This is where I feel like the two Joannas are just totally different creatures and characters. They're going through this similar plot line, but the first Joanna is an artist, and so much of her life is still revolved around her family. I think part of this is
00:34:13
Speaker
due to the time period when both of them happened, but it was like a big change. But I think it is like kind of similar to like, like in the seventies, it was like more bold for women to have jobs or interests. I don't know. I'm not from the seventies. I don't know. This is just what I've heard. Yeah. Well, and I think the,
00:34:40
Speaker
Joanna in the original movie and also in the book is still quite committed to her photography and trying to get it off the ground more.
00:34:53
Speaker
She still really cares. She's invested in her family in a way that I think the remake one is not as much at the beginning, but she stays as they move, she is still committed to her work. Whereas in the remake, Joanna is very much trying to turn over a new
Technological Modernization in 2004 Adaptation
00:35:12
Speaker
leaf as they move. Right. I think one of the biggest things was Joanna seems to be the one who's prompting them moving in the new one.
00:35:21
Speaker
Yeah, and she, while she's there, even kind of goes so far as to tell her husband like, okay, tell me what to do, like tell me how to be this different person. And he like tells her to wear different clothes and to like act differently. And she's like trying, you know, she's like I can she's convinced that this is worth trying.
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah, she seems to have like bought into the idea that what she was doing was wrong. And I think mostly just because when she lost it, it hurt her so much, but she seemed pretty fine with how it was going. And she's definitely getting punished a lot for not being available for her children all of the time. Yeah, and I think that it's important that the remake is so campy because
00:36:10
Speaker
To me, it feels incredibly unbelievable that an early 2000s woman who was running a production company or whatever her position was would overnight be like, yeah, I'm going to be a housewife. Tell me how to be a housewife. I just don't really buy into that. And I think the campiness and exaggeration of the movie overall makes it a little bit more okay that it's hard to buy into, whereas the first one, the tone is so serious that if they had made it like that, I would have been like, nope, I'm checked out.
00:36:40
Speaker
This isn't down to earth enough for this movie. I do think that the tones of both were right for each movie and for the time. So last year was the 50th anniversary of the book.
00:36:53
Speaker
being published and there's this really cool thing that has a bunch of notes from Ira Levin's notebook and talking about how he wrote it. That's actually where I found out about Bedroom Communities at first and Walter's last name is Eberhart. I think that hyphenated names seem to be a big thing in the new one and I think
00:37:16
Speaker
that I think people started hyphenating names way more in the 90s. And that was like part of third wave feminism more, I guess, like women being like, wait a second, I don't want your name, or at least we should have both of our names here. But Eberhardt, that came from Eber translating to Bohr in German. And it was supposed to be like a play off of the phrase male chauvinist pig.
00:37:48
Speaker
Oh my gosh. I love that. I love that. I want to, I would like to get a coffee with Ira Levin. I don't know if he's alive, but I feel like I found out he was dead, but maybe he's alive. I'm looking it up. Yeah, no, he died in 2007. I'm sorry.
00:38:12
Speaker
Oh, I am going to spiritually send a coffee to him. Yeah. I mean, I feel like whenever I'm asked like what famous person I'd like to have coffee with, it's usually living or dead. So that works. Yeah. I'm going to file that one away. Yeah. Um, so in the new 2000, I mean, it sounds funny to me to even think of it as new because now 2004 is almost 20 years ago.
00:38:42
Speaker
I feel like we're maybe due for a third installation. I would argue that we have already gotten one because I would really argue that Don't Worry Darling stepped in as the kind of 2020s. Oh, I haven't seen Don't Worry Darling, but isn't it set? Is it set in present day? I thought it was like
00:39:12
Speaker
about the past? Oh, it's like more modern day, but I think that the 2004 version was also modernized. I think in my mind, it becomes increasingly modernized with the times and the 70s, one kind of corresponded to that time period and the 04, one kind of corresponded to that time period. And I really feel like
00:39:37
Speaker
the next kind of logical, technological evolution of the movie, of the story, fits very well. Okay, well that makes me want to watch Don't Worry, Darling. I had been unsure before.
00:39:50
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't think that I would like it, and I loved it, but I loved it contextually within this framework. I really feel like it could have been based on it, and I'm sure it was incredibly inspired by it. I can't even imagine otherwise, but I do think that it is kind of the next logic. If the kind of updates to the second version,
00:40:18
Speaker
2004 one kind of was like the next logical step forward from the original this kind of feels like the next logical step forward from that. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. I was gonna say so they they go in she's like being shown a round by Mrs. Van Sant and
00:40:38
Speaker
She says, like, this is a smart house. And I mean, I just thought it was funny that they said that because one of my favorite Disney Channel original movies is Smart House, which came out just a few years earlier in 1999. And it's kind of like similar vibe, like, like the house is the Stepford wife in Smart House.
00:41:00
Speaker
Literally, yeah. Actually, that movie, Smart House, was one of my favorite DCOMs for sure. It's actually based on a Ray Bradbury story called The Velt, which also Deadmau5 has a song based on that and it's a really good song and it's a really good story, so I recommend it.
00:41:21
Speaker
Yeah, it was so creepy and like really fit that she said like the toilets measure like your fat percentage and your blood sugar and like other stuff from your urine. And I was like, Oh, wow. Yeah, this is just like showing the extreme monitoring that happens in the suburbs.
00:41:44
Speaker
Yeah, and especially to women. Oh, yeah, I thought that the so they have like a robo puppy. I had a robo puppy. This was like a real thing. It wasn't like as updated as that. But like, yeah, just like the kind of I feel like you're right that like each era is right where like, the 70s one is like,
00:42:04
Speaker
more it's like more technologically savvy than reality but it's like all of the kinds of stuff that we were imagining to soon be our reality at the time.
00:42:16
Speaker
the robo puppy when they're like, oh yeah, and here's the dog. I forget what she says his name is, but then he just like falls down the stairs. And I thought that was some hilarious foreshadowing for later glitches with the robots. But we find out that
00:42:36
Speaker
that these ones, and this is one of the biggest differences too, is the women here are not actually being replaced. They have nanochips implanted in their brain. And there are a lot of things that actually don't fit with that that happen, but it's a convenient rendering. And I think it makes sense sort of in the world of this is technology that we don't understand and who knows what it could possibly do.
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely feels a little bit plot-holy at some points, but I think that the plot is almost incidental to the message, and so it just kind of doesn't matter that much to me. Yeah, I agree with that, the plot being incidental. Yeah, the plot is very much a delivery. I mean, and you could argue that about a lot of movies, but I think this movie in particular, the plot is a delivery mechanism. Yep. Yeah, and so next we see
00:43:30
Speaker
Mrs. Wellington takes her, she's like, hey, why don't you join us for our workout class? And they all talk like this all the time. And, and they work out in like their, like, housewife out. And she's like, I've revolutionized this aerobic workout, where all of the moves are based on household chores. Isn't that fun?
00:43:55
Speaker
And then she's like, this one's called the washing machine. And they just start like wiggling and are like, it just felt like something you would like literally do in a preschool class. Yeah, which I think just comes back to like all of the infantilizing of women and just like, just not taking them seriously. And I think that one of the really funny things about that scene too, is that
00:44:19
Speaker
When Joanna walks in, she's like, you're all drat, like you're all like made up or like however she says it. And
00:44:26
Speaker
women are like, well, goodness, like I couldn't have my husband see me in like drab urban wear or whatever they's like, they like literally describe her outfit. Yeah. And she's like, Oh, okay. Yep. And so then we next go to the town picnic. And this watch, especially I was like, there's a lot of people there. Like, is this whole town that because there are times when we see like a smaller group, but it seemed like
00:44:53
Speaker
Like, maybe it's the same Stepford that has existed since the 70s, and it's, like, grown up. Oh, man, I love that tape. I love that. Yeah. I accept that. I have no idea if that was the intention, but, like, I accept and embrace that idea very much. She says at the end that she was like, where can I put a town of robots and no one would notice? Obviously Connecticut.
00:45:24
Speaker
which was like such a drag, but I'll take it. It's so funny to me. I mean, I...
00:45:34
Speaker
have not been to Connecticut, so I don't really know, but I also feel like we totally understand. I've been to Connecticut. I think that that is especially something that people from New York City think that people from Connecticut are all white, flighty people who've given up on all of the interesting things in their lives. There are interesting things in Connecticut. It's kind of pretty, but it definitely is... I feel like it was a state that was made to be suburbia. Right.
00:46:04
Speaker
So they go to the town picnic and then I love, I can't remember. Oh yeah, I think it is. Joe says, these women are like deranged flight attendants. Don't let them hear me. So good. And then like going along with the sexy mommy thing, all of the women, well, not all of them, but like four of them come over.
00:46:27
Speaker
and they all look like dead in the eyes as they do. And one of the women says to her husband, she looks him up and down and she's like, now I know why they call it the Banana Republic. And then they all giggle and I was like, damn, if somebody said that to my fiance, I would be like, excuse me? Yeah, it is really interesting. And I think like,
00:46:53
Speaker
It's funny though because the men and the women, I don't want to say this because I don't agree that the world works this way, but for Hollywood's sake, the men and the women are in different leagues. And that's acknowledged at the end when Joanna and her husband are talking and he's like,
00:47:14
Speaker
All the women here are amazing and beautiful and blah, blah, blah. All the women are dorks. And he was saying, we married super women, and what does that make us? And she's lucky. What do you mean? Seriously, why are you upset? I have a whole thing about that. I'll get to that.
00:47:34
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and he basically is like, it makes us the wives or whatever. I don't remember exactly what word he uses, but that's basically what he says. Right. And it's like, so you, I think he says, so that makes us the women. And it's like, oh, oh, so you don't want to be women. You don't want it. You see the way women are treated and you don't like that.
00:47:52
Speaker
Yeah, is it a little bit hard maybe? Yeah, so then at the picnic we meet Bette Midler who plays Bobby in this one. I just love Bette Midler in general and I love her as Bobby. I think that she is like the perfect update for Bobby.
00:48:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think that she was my favorite part of the remake by like a significant part too. And yeah, she just comes like barreling through the crowd and she's like, am I the only one who finds this a little disturbing? And I was like, no ma'am, you are not. And then she and Joe become fast friends and they meet the gay couple who is like weirdly the stand-in for the black couple. I feel like that's like a very early 2000s thing is they're like,
00:48:46
Speaker
Oh, right. Gay people are oppressed now. We've fixed racism and now we have to try to make sure we talk about gay people. Right. But it is funny because Bobby in the movie, at least like Bobby, they say she's Jewish, right? And it's like, of course, the one Jewish lady is the one who's like, there's a lot of white people here, huh? Right, right.
00:49:10
Speaker
Yeah, oh yeah, I forgot to say that when we were talking about the old one, that when Bobby introduces herself in that one, she says, I'm Bobby Marx, that's upward mobility for Markowitz. And I thought that was like, kind of a bold thing to insert in the 70s. But I mean, Ira Levin. That's so, that like is green over my head too, which is cool. Ira Levin is Jewish, so makes sense that he was thinking about it.
00:49:38
Speaker
But yeah, I don't know if I've heard that Ray is upward mobility used like that. But that, that's the assimilation. Yeah, that's really interesting that he would throw that in there. Yeah, I was wondering if that line was directly from the book. I assume it is since so many were for that version. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. There's kind of like a different, like the same
00:50:07
Speaker
they do like a larger scene that's kind of the same vibe for Bobby there where they're like, I mean, the whole thing is just like this, the ideal Stepford wife is like so obviously waspy, as in White-Angle Saxon Protestant. And so they have like a scene where they're all sitting down and talking about
00:50:28
Speaker
like they're like this is our book for this season or whatever I don't know it's like a book club but it's like a decorating book about Christmas and she's like oh and don't worry our we have a chapter about Hanukkah too and then they're like all giving her ideas for how she could decorate her menorah with pine cones and just like ways to like turn
00:50:54
Speaker
Christmas decorations into Hanukkah decorations. And I love Bobby slash Bette Midler. She goes, why didn't I just spell out big Jew on my yard in pine cones? And one of the robots is like, yeah. Which like honestly felt, I feel that in my soul. Yeah, that was a mood.
00:51:19
Speaker
I would have slapped someone if I had been sitting at that little room. I probably would have just left. But yeah, that was bold. And I wrote a thing down about neoliberalism. And I feel like that's sort of the messaging from having the Black family in the original one is like,
00:51:41
Speaker
We can manipulate them and we'll make them have our values, but we'll appear progressive from the outside. And it's kind of the same thing. I mean, they explicitly do it with the gay man in this. And there's a lot of stereotyping. The character feels sort of stereotyped, but I know people who are actually like that.
00:52:03
Speaker
Right. Well, they have him as like a more like, kind of feminine, like gay man and his partner is like more conservative. And I think he says that they had a conversation him and his partner where he was like, what are you becoming a gay Republican? And he was like, that's like being a gay with a bad haircut.
00:52:24
Speaker
And then when he, so they, he seems to be the first one of their trio to become robotized. And, and they like can't find him, Bobby and Joe. And then the next time they see him, he's like announcing that he's running for Senate. And he's like, I'm running on a platform of family and conservative values, which is like,
00:52:46
Speaker
Yeah, well, and one of the things that was really interesting too, is that like, when Joanna is expressing to her husband that she's concerned for her friend, he's like, she's saying he's so different now. And he's like, well, he's he doesn't have to be a stereotype. And she's like, like, exactly. It's like, everybody is like, talking about how he's stereotyped, but they want to change him into something different. And then like, they're using the idea of stereotyping someone as kind of like, the stand in
00:53:15
Speaker
Um, and yeah, I like that they like find all of his shirts in the trash and their Joanna's like, maybe they're giving them away. And Bobby is like, to who the gay homeless, which I was like, I mean, there are a lot of, like, I, I'm pretty sure there's a higher percentage of LGBTQ homeless people, but.
00:53:37
Speaker
And during that joke, they pull out a shirt that has Vigo Mortons and on it, which I thought was really funny and very topical for the times. I also was like, why are they square dancing? I guess that's like the American dance. Do you remember square dancing in gym class? Did you have to do that? Because I was like, why the fuck are we learning this?
Metaphors and Cultural Themes in Stepford
00:54:01
Speaker
I did not have to do that.
00:54:04
Speaker
I have heard that that is a thing, and I think that that is white people stuff. And I think that that is- Strong, straight people stuff. Well, no, I mean, actually, I think that that is part of why it is in there, because it is solidifying, this is white America, this Stepford, Stepford is white America. Yeah, at the end of this one, one of the people says, we're introducing you to
00:54:31
Speaker
American love. Oh yeah, Stepford, the American way of love. And I was just like, white people? That's not original. No, not very original. Oh yeah. And then she, Joanna's like having some feelings about if she wants to be there or not, which like fair, she literally just changed her whole life. It's unsurprising that she would think that.
00:54:56
Speaker
And her husband says to her, this is one of the most sickening parts. And I think this is why I don't take him seriously at the end where I'm like, no, you're still trash. Because he said, your personality makes people want to kill you.
00:55:09
Speaker
Yeah, he blames her for the shooting that happened. Yeah, it's like a little victim blaming. He says it makes people try to kill you, which I think he's feeling threatened in another physical way where he can't protect her. And I see that as a huge way that men try to gain control over women as being like, well, you won't be safe. But the victim blaming is like, well,
00:55:34
Speaker
Oh you make people try to kill you so you should really just try to be a different person and also maybe don't leave the house? Yeah. Well I think at the end it's less that I give him any credit and it's more that like her being like no that's what a man is. Like a man is someone who can deal with a woman. Like
00:55:52
Speaker
a real woman. It was more about her saying that than like anything really about him. Because he's a piece of shit. Yeah. I think it's partially that I have like such a hard time seeing what man or woman or masculine or feminine mean beyond archetypes. Like I can only see them as these kind of like stereotyped things and I have like a hard time viewing real people as those things. But like, I also like, I
00:56:22
Speaker
relate to being a woman and I mean I'm also I'm gender fluid so some days I feel it more or don't feel it at all or don't feel anything about gender but I have always felt really uncomfortable with the word woman and I guess I feel kind of the same about the word man yeah I mean I don't think gender is real but in the context of this movie like this very gender like they are like the literal embodiments of the archetypes
00:56:50
Speaker
And yeah, so her husband then says to her, only high powered neurotic castrating Manhattan career bitches wear black. Is that who you want to be when he's trying to convince her to put on an apron and a little pink dress? And she says, ever since I was a little girl. And I was like, aw. I was just imagining her like so much of little girl programming is like,
00:57:15
Speaker
even now is like, here's your dolly in your little kitchen. And you're gonna be a good mommy when you grow up, which is like, that's fine if that's what you want to be. But it makes it like, hard to tell when you're so programmed that way. And I like imagining her as like, a tiny business woman. Yeah, it's a cute concept. And also, I love that Faith Hill was in this movie. Like, yes.
00:57:44
Speaker
I miss that. I don't think I know what she looks like. I would never not know what Faith Hill looks like. She was like, I would sing along to her songs all the time when I was around that age, I guess, no. 2004, that puts me in eighth or ninth grade. I think I was singing her stuff more in like fourth, fifth, sixth grade. But I mean, I would still jam out to a Faith Hill song
00:58:13
Speaker
And she's beautiful. I mean, she, this I guess I was about to say she looks like a Stafford wife, which is kind of brings me to like that this has become a saying where it's like, it's often like derogatory. And I don't mean that about her, but like,
00:58:31
Speaker
it's like being too rigid. And I think it's interesting that it's become this derogatory term when it still is kind of like a stand in for what we think of for like ideal woman. Not that anybody really wants to be that, but that it's like the epitome of the archetype of ideal housewife. Yeah. Yeah. It's like something that's like, well, and I think it's almost because like,
00:59:00
Speaker
It's kind of like one of the many traps of femininity where you think about how you can't be too sexual, but you can't be too prude. You can't be too pretty, but you can't be too ugly. You can't be too hardworking, but you can't be too lazy.
00:59:16
Speaker
it's like, no matter what you do, you're doing it wrong. And it kind of feels like that, where like a Stepford wife, like, is still kind of like the expectation and like the framework against like, against like where women are compared. But it's also this like very derided like, like shat upon thing, right? Of like, this is the best version of a woman, but like, we're still going to make fun of it. It's like very, it's just like feels very much like there's no winning.
00:59:44
Speaker
I think when I used it the most is actually when I drive into, and I think the 2004
00:59:52
Speaker
movie did a good example of this also where like this was a time where like so many of these like they were calling the McMansions were made where there it's like all these formulaic housing developments and when when I've used that phrase the most is like when I drive into a neighborhood where all the houses look the same and it gives me like
01:00:15
Speaker
Stepford vibes, like, is this where I want to be where we're like, something about the houses all being the same gives me a feeling like all the people are supposed to be the same. It reminds me of the theme song for the show weeds. It's like little boxes on the hillside. Yeah.
01:00:33
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's just like the, that song is actually very Stepford Wivesy. It's like, there's this formulaic housing development and then like all the people are supposed to go in there and do the thing that they're supposed to do. Cause the houses are all lined up and then basically just like the way that we've created neighborhoods to filter people through specific places, especially white people.
01:01:06
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, cookie cutter. Exactly. Cookie cutter houses, cookie cutter lives. Also, this is an aside, but then we find out that the women are ATMs when Walter is first being introduced to them not being regular women. And I was like, what the heck?
01:01:33
Speaker
That's one of the big plot holes that makes no logical sense. But I feel like at that time, technology was like, none of this makes sense, but it's cool. So we'll just go along with it. And now people I think are a little more savvy. Yeah, for sure. Because now I would have the information to be like, where does the money come from? And back then, people may not have been thinking about it that way.
01:02:00
Speaker
But another one that was another kind of technology joke that I really laughed out loud at, even though I was by myself watching, was when they're introducing the men to Joanna. And one of them is like, oh, I work at AOL. And she's like, is that why they're all so slow? I know. I know. It's true. I love that. That was amazing. Yeah. I was thinking kids today wouldn't get that joke.
01:02:26
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was hilarious. It was the funniest line in the movie. So Joanna's starting to be like, this neighborhood is sketchy, I want to leave. So she's trying to decide if she should leave, and her husband has her locked in the house. And he does, I thought this was an interesting scene where she's like, I want to leave. And he does unlock the house for her, but just showing that he has the power to do that. And she doesn't, even though he's
01:02:56
Speaker
granting her access to leave, it's still like he just has like a thumb over her. And I like that she starts researching some of the women to find out like who they were before. I'm not sure like what led to that. It's less obvious than in the original, but I think this movie sort of expects that you at least understand the plot summary of the original.
01:03:24
Speaker
And so she's like googling or something. She's on her computer searching and she finds that like one woman was nominated for the Court of Appeals to be a judge and the character Faith Hill is playing.
01:03:41
Speaker
was somebody else important, I forget. Oh yeah, she was like, she was a CEO of something. And just like everybody used to be high powered. And then her husband comes in, and she like clicks away. And there's just like an apple pie up there. And she's like, I'm just googling pies to make so I can get ahead of it. And she like knows she can't be real with him anymore.
01:04:05
Speaker
And yeah, this is another time where I wrote down hyphenated names as a symbol of feminism. That's like, they just keep coming back to that and saying it like, there are some hyphenated names that sound like really silly. And it's kind of like, I guess I see why you did that, but also like, what? And there are some hyphenated names that just sound normal. And they like, I feel like this is actually part of why they changed the names from the original movie. Cause they were trying to make really ridiculous hyphenated names so they could poke fun at that.
01:04:36
Speaker
So then she goes to Bobby's house and we had seen Bobby's house earlier and it was just such a mess. Like in the original Joanna says like, I love a messy kitchen or something. Like, thank God I can tell you're human. But this one is like beyond that, it looks kind of like a hoarding situation. And Joanna even then is like, whoa, what's up?
01:05:04
Speaker
And then she walks in and I thought they had some really good music at several points in this. There's like a creepy waltz that's in the beginning. And then as some of like the most
01:05:20
Speaker
horror type music. We're like, that kind of suspense is happening as we're like walking into Bobby's clean house. So I really liked that juxtaposition and like the feeling that we get from the music that Joanne is like, this is not right. And then kind of her. Right, like the more welcoming the house is, the more totally. And then
01:05:47
Speaker
kind of her stand-in for she doesn't stab Bobby in this one but she's like walking with Bobby and Bobby's like what's wrong and then she puts her hand down on the stove and it's it's a gas stove and it's on that one was also kind of a plot hole because like if she's supposed to still have a human body I think so like even if she couldn't feel it her hand would be getting messed up
01:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, and then we see her kids come down and I was actually wondering if I thought she didn't have kids before this like I was one like I was like where'd these kids come from like were these actually children because like they had never
01:06:28
Speaker
talked about them before that scene. She doesn't ever say things that she has to do for her children before that moment. I was kind of like, where the heck did these kids come from? And the first one she goes, here's a sandwich for you, no crust, a Snickers bar, and a Rolex. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And then she didn't have one of the
01:06:51
Speaker
action figures or something that her kid won and she's like, Oh, I'm sorry, here's $500. And I think specifically these are three boys that we're seeing and she's giving them everything that they want. And they're kind of like being trained to be the future Stepford husbands. Right.
01:07:10
Speaker
which brings up the question again of what happens to the Stepford daughters. And so yeah, now it's suddenly dark and stormy for the first time. It's been like pretty bright the whole other time we've seen there. And then she kind of storms into the men's association. And one of the first things she sees is the portrait of her family. And she has long blonde hair, which is like
01:07:32
Speaker
the symbol of the pinnacle of white women's attractiveness in this world. And then she sees the men slowly gather around. Then she's like, where are my children? Where are my husband? Where is my husband? Where are my husbands?
01:07:48
Speaker
And he kind of walks out sheepishly and talks about why he can't handle his wife being cooler than him, which we talked about a little earlier. So he says, you're even better at sex, don't deny it. And she says, I wasn't going to.
01:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, good for her for knowing. Yeah. So we were kind of talking about earlier, like how men don't like being put in women's place. And like, obviously, he says we're the worst for the girl. And I think so, like, so many insults for men are calling them women. Yeah.
01:08:25
Speaker
Absolutely. It's like the cliche of the football coach being like, okay, ladies, like, let's do this. Yeah. And, and they're kind of at the same time saying, like, oh, if you gain power, you're being the man, like, this is their like, the whole thing is like, they're saying it's like a role reversal, which I think, to a certain degree, there is an element of that. And like, that goes into the twist ending.
01:08:51
Speaker
where it's really been a woman who's been orchestrating all of this. And I think sometimes in trying to find liberation, people end up just taking on the role of the oppressor instead of trying to actually find something that would be liberatory for everyone. Yeah. It also feels like it's kind of like poking fun at feminism in a way that's not on its side necessarily.
01:09:22
Speaker
it felt like to me in the remake, like the first movie feels very clear about like, what we're supposed to take away from it. Whereas this one I think is like, there's a little bit more room for interpretation in a way that I don't love. I can see that. Also, the so I don't really know what the difference between second wave and third wave feminism is like, I'm sure I would
01:09:48
Speaker
recognize the points, but it's, I feel like I've learned more about third wave feminism, but I, I mean, I read Betty Friedan and things like that. I think Betty Friedan's first wave, but then, but the book and the first movie were during second wave feminism and the 2004 movie is during third wave feminism. So I feel like some of the things that were going on were specifically related to those.
01:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, yeah. And so then Mike, who we find out it's Mike short for Microsoft, like diz for Disney. And there still is a diz for Disney, but like, we're at this point when we're like being there's like the reveal that they're going to turn her into a robot. Or so she thinks he like plays a video. And he
01:10:41
Speaker
He goes, we take a gloomy, dissatisfied woman. And she's just like, there's like someone, it's a cartoon. She's like slouching and has purple hair and looks grumpy. And they like.
01:10:53
Speaker
I have purple hair. I know. I was thinking that this is like one of those things where like, I've heard like men's rights association type people say negative things about women with dyed hair. If I don't even, I don't know. I just know that they don't like dyed hair. I don't know why. Yeah. Like they hate blue haired liberals. If you have a crazy museum, like comment section.
01:11:21
Speaker
Yeah. I thought it was funny that she was slouching. Like she looks grumpy, but they're like, we'll fix your posture too. Like, okay. And then so she goes into a machine and she comes out like skinnier and with the huge boobs and blonde hair. It's like a very Playboy bunny look. She's wearing like one of those like little leotard bustier things. And then she like goes and puts her husband's slippers on and like kneels in front of him.
01:11:49
Speaker
And they show at the same time that the way that they accomplish this is just by putting a few harmless nano chips in her brain, totally normal. And like Walter is watching this and we see his face and he looks horrified. Like he hadn't considered how anything was going to happen. And now that he sees it even in like a glossy version, he's like, oh wow, this is actually terrible. I didn't want to think about this. I just wanted a perky wife.
01:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. And she asks him, is this what you really want? And, and if they can say I love you and if they mean it, and he like seems like he's sort of considering. And I wrote this down. I can't remember if this was like something in the movie or something that I was thinking of, but I know that Mike is saying stuff about how
01:12:41
Speaker
Like, you get to remove all of the negative parts of your partner and like, wouldn't you want to do that? It's like, if you just only have them at their very best. But like, I feel like you don't really love someone if you only love them at their very best. That's like, that's just not what love is. Right. And I think that speaks to like, Joanna kind of saying like, can they say they love you and like, can they mean it? Yeah, they can mean it, in my opinion.
01:13:09
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. And so then we see this is another plot hole thing where they're like, we're not replacing your body. But then like this body comes up from the floor and it has like the blank eyes that are reminiscent of the original movie. And I was kind of like, what's up with that body if you're not replacing her body? And
01:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, another thing they said to her was like, while you were trying to become men. And it's just so weird that that's like, they just relate wanting liberation and power to being a man, but they don't see why women would want that. Yeah, well, and I think it's even more interesting that he's like, while you were trying to become men, we were trying to become gods. Like what exactly?
01:14:03
Speaker
Well, and I think that this speaks to like almost like a belief that like men are more evolved than women. Like that's kind of like what it, right? Like if it's like the next, taking like the next evolutionary step or whatever.
01:14:18
Speaker
for like men to be more like men and then men to be more like gods. It's like, is that, is that what we're doing? Like, is that, is that how you view this? Yeah. And I think especially in Christian spaces, I've heard this before where it's like, Oh, men were created by God first. So obviously we're more involved. Oh yeah. And then she gives him like a tearful kiss as they are being like lowered into the ground. And then we see her.
01:14:42
Speaker
in the grocery store next and she's got the long blonde hair and the little dress on and like a bow or something and every one of the robot women is just like
01:14:53
Speaker
rolling through the shopping market. And like all of they say is like, hello, Roberta. Hello, Robert. Hello. They're, they're just like, Oh, I think it's Roger. Actually, not Robert is their friend who also gets turned as the first gay man who's turned into a nano ship thing. Um, but that's how the original movie ends is in the supermarket.
01:15:19
Speaker
And then after this, we see her at kind of like a ball. And there's Mrs. Wellington and her husband Mike up there. And that's when they say like, American love the Stepford way or Stepford, the American way of love. And then they introduce the couple. And then Mike ends up like going out to the garden while
01:15:50
Speaker
Walter goes to free all of the women. And the way that this happens was really weird too where they like kind of look like they're being abducted by aliens. They like shoot their arms back and their heads go up and then like light shines out of their foreheads. Yeah. And then they seem to remember what has happened. So are like obviously pissed.
01:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's the only thing I liked about the twist ending was that there was an opportunity for the women to come back and be pissed. I think that's the only thing I liked. I like that too. And then Mrs. Wellington comes over to her husband and says, there's something unspeakable going on in the ballroom. It's an apocalypse. And I was like, my, this woman is dramatic.
01:16:41
Speaker
And she's the only one who doesn't seem to be changing, which is how we like start being like, Oh, something's up with her. And then Mike goes, control your wives. And all of the husbands are like trying to use their remotes. Oh yeah. That's something we haven't discussed yet is like, I thought that was a good.
01:16:59
Speaker
update on the technology as the women have remotes. It doesn't totally make sense to me again. It's kind of a weird tech plot hole. But I mean, I think that that's like, that's like an ultimate mechanism of control. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
01:17:22
Speaker
And then all the men are confused why Walt hadn't changed her. I think this is when he says something and she's like, he's a real man. And then Mike is going to like attack Walt and Joe hits him in the back of the head and his head comes flying off and we see that it's a robot head.
01:17:44
Speaker
Which that, that actually surprised me. And I was like, my jaw dropped when I watched it. And I had seen it before, but I just forgot about that. And it was like, holy shit. Yeah, I hadn't seen it before. And I watched it after reading the first book and watching the first movie. And I was like, what is happening here? Right? Everything is wrong. Yeah, it's very unexpected when you're expecting the original movie. And then
01:18:13
Speaker
Mrs. Wellington comes in and she says that like, she's like, I was like all of you women. I was a neurosurgeon. I was overstressed, overworked and under loved. And she says that she like had contracts with the Pentagon and with Mattel, who are the makers of Barbie. I was like, that's an interesting combo. And I guess it explains the things that she did to the women, which is why they said that.
01:18:42
Speaker
And that's when she also says that Connecticut is where a town full of robots would go unnoticed. And, and she says that she, she made this robot husband because her original husband, she did it on her and she killed him. And so she just like ran away and has been, she's like, confesses to this murder like 20 years later or whatever. And I'm like, how did, how did this woman get away with this and has just been living in this sleepy little town? Like that's pretty sketch.
01:19:14
Speaker
because she's a blonde white lady. What do you mean? You're right. You're right. I know. But nobody even seems to have known that it happened. But I don't know. She seems to be smart and manipulative. So I'm sure she set it up in a way where it didn't even look like anything. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. She gives me Marjorie Taylor Greene vibes, honestly.
01:19:44
Speaker
Yeah. And then like one of the last scenes, she's like holding the robot head and she kisses him and gets electrocuted. Yeah, and it's so over the top. Like it's just so over the top. Yeah, this is peak camp.
01:20:00
Speaker
And she goes, I'm in love with a waltz and a town and a man. And then she kisses him and she like rolls over dramatically and it like pans out and she's wearing this like huge skirt that takes up like half of the screen even when it's panned out. She's an interesting character.
01:20:21
Speaker
And yeah, I definitely didn't expect the originals are very much directly about men controlling the patriarchy. And this one is kind of like the internalization of the patriarchy and I feel like it's mostly
01:20:36
Speaker
saying, I don't know, I think it's kind of like blaming women for feminism not taking off or going further, which I feel conflicted about because I think it's true in some ways and also a very convenient excuse for Ben. Right. It kind of like lets the men off the hook in a way that I don't really like and I think
01:21:01
Speaker
I mean, I guess it's cool that she was so smart that she tricked all of these men into listening to what she wants and enacting what she wants, but also what she wants is what they want. This isn't that sneaky because you're just doing what they already want. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It definitely takes something away from it for me that it ends up being a woman behind all of it. I think same.
01:21:30
Speaker
It is a message that I think needs to be discussed more, but I don't think I like this as the framework for it. And especially like being behind like, like, so it was this woman who programmed the women to be able to make their boobs bigger with a remote. Like there's, there's just too many things that are like so
01:21:57
Speaker
such men's vision not like like she's like i just wanted to it's the make america great of it all she's like i just wanted to live in this yeah it is totally make america great again vibes yep and she's like i don't think that she cared if the women had bigger boobs or not i think she just like she's imagining this time that never really existed but she like also seems to
01:22:27
Speaker
be a fan of the racism and antisemitism and all of it. Also, she hangs out with the women a lot. Can you imagine like knowing you're the only lucid person in a group and being like, I'm gonna hang out like they're all her little dolls.
01:22:44
Speaker
That's probably like half the point though. And I think, I think a lot of this whole thing kind of reminds me of like men who will say like, well, men don't care if you wear makeup and wear nice clothes. Like only other women care about that. And it's like, you don't understand how any of this works, do you?
01:23:02
Speaker
It kind of is like in the same vein as that of like, well, like women aren't happy because like they don't like they don't have time for their kids anymore and blah, blah, blah. And like they want to be like, she says, I just want to live in a world where men are men and women are lovely and cherished. That really, I was like, okay. I feel like they did like in a very short amount of time. They tried to like wrap up a lot of character development for her, but it kind of worked.
01:23:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I don't know. It definitely took something away for me. I think there are a lot of ways they could have changed the ending and kept the message intact. And I just feel like something got really lost in translation there. I agree. I just kind of wanted, I don't know, I feel like Walter was like a good symbol of like allies for feminism, I guess.
01:24:03
Speaker
But I wanted Joanna to have more agency, I guess. But I think part of the point was there are places where the person who's being oppressed can't have agency, and that's why allies are important. Yeah. Yeah, because she could not have prevented becoming a robot on her own. Right.
01:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, that would not have happened. But I guess it's aggravating a little bit to me because they could have made the twist of her not becoming a robot and them freeing all the women without having it be like, oh, but it was the women folk all along. Come on. I know. I would have preferred that. But I like the actual ending. After that, they go six months ahead and
01:25:00
Speaker
Roger, Bobby, and Joanna are on the Larry King show. And they're all talking about what they're doing now. Roger is actually running for Senate. And Bobby wrote a book that's called Wait Till He's Asleep, then Cut It Off, which is hilarious. A little little Raina Bobbin action. Yeah.
01:25:25
Speaker
And then Joanna is like working on some documentary about the men or something. I don't know. She's doing something with TV again. I also thought it was interesting that she cut her hair short again, but it was still blonde.
01:25:41
Speaker
She kept some part of this. Yeah. I also just love how when we find out what happens to the men, the men are just all grocery shopping and not allowed to chat with each other and not allowed to connect and just have to get their stuff and get it home. It sets it up as like, let's see how you like it. That's what made me like the twist ending because I was like, okay, it makes sense.
01:26:05
Speaker
that there's this one woman who is also being punished. She maybe dies or something. It's kind of unclear, but they make it look like she just wants to hug her dying robot husband who's shocking her and probably died, but it's one of those off-screen deaths, I guess.
01:26:28
Speaker
And, but yeah, it makes sense for her to be punished. I don't think she should have died necessarily, but she did it herself and she made that choice. And then like all the rest of the men are like seeing what's up and the three people who were so lucid. I kind of wanted to see the rest of the women, I guess. Like how, how are they all doing? And like, what does it mean for their husbands to be trapped in this?
01:26:58
Speaker
thing that they were trapped in. Although the men are still lucid, at least it seems.
Influence of Gender Roles on Parenting and Positivity
01:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, they just have to do this stuff. Yeah. And it's like pretty much what they were avoiding the whole time is like these tasks that they think are feminine. They're like, Oh, I'll just make my wife do all of these. Yeah.
01:27:22
Speaker
It's funny in the original movie, there is a scene where Joanna is developing photographs and Walter is kind of like, I've been watching these kids for hours. I don't know what to do with them. And she's like, you've had seven years of higher education, figure it out.
01:27:39
Speaker
What the fuck do you mean you don't know what to do with them? Right. I love that too. And yeah, I think that there are, it's become more common for dads to be actively involved in their kids' lives. But they're definitely still dads who are like, I don't know what to do with these kids. Like, like women just have like automatic knowledge about how to do these things. Right. There are also still a lot of people who call it babysitting when men watch their own children. Right. What the hell?
01:28:09
Speaker
It's so ridiculous. Yeah. I think one of the other big themes of Stepford in general is like toxic positivity. And I feel like there's just so much of that wrapped up into
01:28:24
Speaker
the idealized vision of a woman like in the cartoon where they show how they're changing them, she's like grumpy and then they make her happy. And I've seen, so there's a diner that I used to go to when I lived in Massachusetts and it's like the 50s diners are like a big thing all around the country. And so at this 50s diner that's like literally called 50s,
01:28:46
Speaker
They have a cutout from a women's home ec course from high school. It's just like one page that's in a frame on the wall. And it says like, don't bother your husband with your thoughts, basically. And it's like, when he gets home, he's going to be tired and you should be at the door with a drink and smiling. You wouldn't want to upset your husband by making him think about your feelings.
01:29:14
Speaker
Like all these things that are like, oh, right. Like women were like very explicitly taught this for a long time. And now there's still, like it's still in the air where it's like, you should be like this even if we're not like literally being taught it in school.
01:29:35
Speaker
Yeah, well, and I think that actually kind of brings me to like another thing I wanted to make sure we talked about a little bit of the way housewives around like the time the book came out and the first movie were medicated, like thinking about like Milltown and Valium, like the kind of early drugs that they would give to women that they were basically
01:29:57
Speaker
Give them to them to numb them out. They were feeling reasonable feelings. They were feeling unfulfilled by being tied to the house. They were feeling understimulated. They were also feeling the stress and the pressure of being a woman.
01:30:13
Speaker
And rather than address those issues in a way that is meaningful, they were prescribed incredibly addictive drugs, incredibly addictive medicines that were really designed to numb them out. They weren't really designed to make them feel better, they were designed to make them feel nothing.
01:30:34
Speaker
and how that is so ingrained in like the Stepford ideal, right? Of like, you don't really have feelings, like you were putting on a show of happy feelings, but it doesn't really matter if you're happy. They're less concerned with happiness and they're more concerned with smiling. Right, exactly. As long as you appear happy, it doesn't matter if you're actually happy because it's all about presentation. Yeah, and I think
01:31:01
Speaker
We can maybe leave a link to it in the show notes, but the podcast You're Wrong About has a really, really good episode about the Stepford Wives where they really get into the history of those drugs and just the overlap of what that looked like and what that meant with some of the themes of Stepford Wives, and they get into the history really, really well. I definitely recommend
01:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, I hadn't heard of Miltown until I listened to that episode. But I definitely had heard of Valium. And I had a pharmacist once when I picked up Valium who was like, oh, you know, mommy's little helper. And I was like, what the heck? And why do I even know this phrase? So creepy. Yeah, yeah. And it's really, really, really sad to think
01:31:46
Speaker
about that the response to this like disenfranchisement was like, just check out. It's fine. Like you don't even need to really be here. Your body needs to be here. You need to keep things going. You need to go through the motions, but like you don't need to be here. And it's like when Joanna was saying like, there will be someone with my name who cooks and cleans, but she won't take pictures and she won't be
Pushback Against Women's Progress
01:32:08
Speaker
me. It's like, that's what it is, right? It's that kind of hollowness.
01:32:14
Speaker
Uh, because this wasn't like, oh, if you have a panic attack, take a Valium. This was like, take Valium all day. Like don't ever not be on Valium. Yep. Yeah. And another thing that the You're Wrong About episode made me think of was, um, Naomi Wolf's book, The Beauty Myth. And she talks about how, uh, kind of like, as we were talking about, like where there's like,
01:32:41
Speaker
a pushback against any progress. When women started working, there was more beauty standards that were put into place because it was to make it harder for them. And as one of the things that you're wrong about, they talk about the tech advances that helped the home.
01:33:07
Speaker
like dishwashers washing machines, but it was like around the time that those things were being introduced where it became like a huge thing to have like a perfectly clean home or to like bake really well. And just like, I mean, like we were talking about, there's no winning. Like every time you've reached the top, there becomes the floor drops out and it becomes like a whole new set of rules. Right. And also I was thinking about,
01:33:37
Speaker
how this book was written right around when the ERA was passed, and it's the Equal Rights Amendment. I watch a show about the ratification that's called Mrs. America that's on Hulu. It's really good, interesting historical fiction.
01:33:56
Speaker
I don't know exactly what was in the Equal Rights Amendment, but I know it was stuff around women having their own bank accounts and being able to make and save money for themselves, which just totally changed women's lives. Something else that I was thinking about just in terms of feminism generally is that
01:34:19
Speaker
The Joanna in the original movie is framed as being interested in women's lib, but we don't really get in too far to what her actual values are around feminism. But Joanna in the newer one has very much white feminism, girl boss feminism, vibes to her that I don't love. I agree. They make her pretty unlikable, and it seems on purpose.
01:34:49
Speaker
Yeah. I think that they give the men in the remake a lot of ways out, like a lot of kind of outs for how bad it really is. I feel like a lot of the men, like we were saying, like they, they're, they want to be babies, like a lot, like they were like playing with little robot cars and there's like one character, the actor, I feel like always plays roles like this kind of, I can't remember his name.
01:35:14
Speaker
but it's Bobby's husband. And he's always like, hee hee hee. And just being like very childish. And I think like that, I don't know, I feel like you can, it's like the learned helplessness, which is like the same thing as men being like, I don't know what to do with my kids.
01:35:37
Speaker
And I think it can be read as a way out, like it often is, but it just makes them look, I don't know. Like foolish and incompetent? Foolish, yeah, foolish. It makes them, it doesn't make it not their fault to me.
Emotional Impact of 'Stepford Wives'
01:36:00
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't make it not their fault to me, but I just feel like there are so many things in the remake that feel like it waters down what's happening and what's really being discussed. But what can you do? It's definitely less creepy. And I was going to get into asking you what haunts you. And I find the second one is not that haunting. Yeah.
01:36:28
Speaker
I really think like what haunts me is the quote that I like opened up with of just Can you say it again? Yeah, it's where it's where he's Walter is introducing the idea of him joining the men's association.
01:36:45
Speaker
and Joanna says, I give up on you. Why don't you ever want to just tell me the truth? You pretend that we decide things together, but it's always you, what you want. You asked me if I want to move out here and I found you'd already been looking at a house. You asked me if I like this place and I found you already made a down payment. Now you're asking me about the lousy men's association and it's quite obvious you've already joined. Why bother to ask me at all?
01:37:06
Speaker
And how it really does seem that the men just need the women to be there as like a thing to bounce themselves off of. And like making them into these like robots or animatrons, like whatever language, right, whatever kind of iteration keeps them as that without the interference of them having these feelings and these opinions and like wanting things to be different. And
01:37:34
Speaker
how it can give the men like the illusion that they are considering someone else, but someone else who really requires no consideration because they don't really have any to offer. Yeah, what about you? Yeah, I think Ira Levin, again, like in Rosemary's Baby seems like really tapped into women of this era.
01:37:58
Speaker
and is like saying like, you're right, men just want sex dolls who cook for them and watch their kids, which is really disappointing. But yeah, I so I said the second one wasn't haunting, but I do I am really haunted and disturbed. And I'm like, Joe, get out of that marriage from him saying the victim blaming you make people want to shoot you like I feel like
01:38:27
Speaker
I don't know. That's just, that would be a really hard thing for me to get past if someone said that to me. I don't know if I could stay in a relationship with them. I definitely wouldn't dress them. Yeah.
01:38:39
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Because they're saying basically, I can understand why someone would attack you. And that's a horrible thing to hear from someone who's supposed to love you. Right. And in the first one, he just doesn't seem like he likes her at all. I don't know. Their relationship definitely seems to have broken down a lot more than the new one.
01:39:07
Speaker
I don't know, I even though new Walt says that horrible thing and like other horrible things. He does seem they seem to have more relationship to me, even though it's not a happy one, but they still like seem invested in each other. Whereas I feel like Joanna doesn't really
01:39:29
Speaker
feel I think like her ex is right when she goes to visit him that she is bored in her relationship but I think she feels too obligated to like she's loyal she just wants to stay with him even though she's not happy and she like finds happiness in photography and other things that's pretty haunting to me overall but it's that scene that I said like feels like that's like the scene that feels like a horror movie to me where he's like coming to get her and
01:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, he just has like murder in his eyes. And you like don't know if she's gonna get out of the house and it's raining then too. And that's like, I can feel that feeling and it won't leave me soon. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely one that gets under your skin in a way that feels really real.
Engagement and Listener Interaction
01:40:30
Speaker
All right, so that wraps up our conversation about the Stepford Wives. If you have any movies you'd like to hear us talk about, feel free to follow us over on Instagram at whathangsupod. We will periodically put question boxes up in our stories for recommendations and suggestions, but we will also always accept DMs if there are any movies you want to hear about.
01:40:56
Speaker
Oh.