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15 Plays1 year ago
A rewatch and rerecording for us. Katie and Carly discuss hereditary mental illness, our thoughts on the pacing and tone, accidentally typecasting Kal Penn in our minds because of our relationship to the Harold & Kumar movies, the etymology of the term “nut-case,” silly childhood songs, and the short-film that preceded Smile, Laura Hasn't Slept.
This monster face we talk about: https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/The_Smile_Entity
Mention of Llamas With Hats
https://youtu.be/jJOwdrTA8Gw?si=3e8ypUiC1raLC5hz
Music used under Creative Commons License
Horror Monster Sound: Preparing For Battle (Vol 002)
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Transcript
Introduction and Movie Overview
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to What Haunts You podcast about the stories that haunt our dreams. I'm Katie. And I'm Carly, and today we're going to be talking about the movie from 2022 called Smile.
00:00:24
Speaker
Uh, we've tried to talk about this before, full disclosure, but the internet was not working. So we're gonna maybe be going over ourselves. Hopefully the internet will be good this time, not going away. So the main character is Dr. Rose Cotter. She is played by Sophie Bacon, who's the daughter of Keira Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon, which I didn't know the first time I watched it. I looked it up the second time. She does actually look a lot like both of them.
00:00:52
Speaker
Um, and she is a really good actress. I think that she, she carried the movie for the most part, but I mean, most of the movie was just on her. But I think that she did, she had good face acting and I was drawn in by her emotional experience. Um, I think also just like styling wise, they did a good job of like having her be very put together in the beginning and then like dissecting that. Yeah. Becoming more and more disheveled over time.
00:01:18
Speaker
Right, but I think we had said before that like we both thought it would have been more impactful, especially for how long the movie was. It seemed like there just should have been more going into her backstory. Like actually I was thinking earlier that I think what would have been good is seeing more scenes of her with the her therapist because we would have gotten to know like
00:01:37
Speaker
like before maybe like flashback scenes because we know that she had been seeing therapists for a while before and then wasn't and then goes to her as things start going bad in this movie. And I think that would have been like a good way to get to know her story more and feel connected to her. Yeah, that could have been an interesting way of doing that.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think overall, like there was something that felt like not quite like right, or I don't know, like I really liked this movie, but there was something where I was like, it's just like not as good as I think it could have been.
Pacing and Structure Critique
00:02:07
Speaker
And when we were talking before you kind of helped me figure out that a lot of that was the pacing.
00:02:12
Speaker
I think it's like almost two hours. It's like an hour and 55 minutes, I think. Yeah, it's really long. And it seems like, like, I think I've said this in every episode now that you could like cut out a third of most movies for me. And Carly doesn't feel that way about most movies. Yeah, but it did seem especially salient in this one that there's just like, we weren't getting as much information as we could have for the amount of time.
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah, like they made it a longer movie, but didn't really make good use of it. It played like a clean like 80 or 90 minute movie, but it lasted for almost two hours, which just didn't really work. If it's gonna have the extra time, like put some meat in there, you know, put something substantial in there. Right, like when I was an hour into it, the second time I watched it, an hour into it, I was like, okay, we're probably like coming up on the climax and then the end right now. And there was 55 more minutes and I was like, whoa.
00:03:10
Speaker
but I think that the director probably just, and the writer wanted to like have several scenes where we're being like shook by it not being reality. That's the thing that repeats the most is like, we think we're in a scene, or we are, we're seeing a scene. And then we're like, oh, she was just imagining that. And yeah, we also talked about how her boss, so she's a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I think she's a psychiatrist. And she works in a hospital
00:03:38
Speaker
We see her with one patient who's saying like, you're going to die. I'm going to die. We're all going to die at
Character Interactions and Casting Choices
00:03:43
Speaker
the beginning. And I liked that they talk about how like, even though he's somebody who could seem scary to people, they're like, Oh no, he's not violent. He's like totally fine. He just needs to sit over here for awhile. And I think this is to the other person. So maybe she says that to both of them, but she says, I know what you're experiencing feels really real, but it can't hurt you, which seems to be true for the first patient we see.
00:04:06
Speaker
But then her next patient is saying, is like kind of introducing us to the villain of the story and saying that she saw her professor die by suicide. And then this thing has been like following her ever since then and smiling at her, but like a really disturbing smile. And then she kills herself and has a smile. I think you had said before that you didn't like how they shot that scene. Yeah, I felt like that scene went on too long and showed too much.
00:04:35
Speaker
I like gory movies so I don't mean it in that way but more in the sense of sometimes you can show too much and like make something lose its impact and it was just too long.
00:04:46
Speaker
I feel like they could have just shown her starting to go and do it and then show her on the ground and focus more on the reaction and have it take less time. I don't know. I just felt like I was watching it and at first I was like, oh shit. And then I was like, okay, I get it. I get it. I get it. You know what I mean? It was really impactful when she first stuck the thing in her face to start cutting herself.
00:05:08
Speaker
And then I like, just like lost it very quickly. And I was like, okay, like I, this isn't, I knew what was going to happen. I didn't need to see it. And I think sometimes my mind can do a better job of scaring me. And I think that was a moment like that where I didn't need that to be on the screen. I could have done more with it in my head.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was like a full minute or two of her scratching and her cutting from the top of her cheek to across her throat. And the scenes, you're right, like when she first started cutting her cheek is when I was like the most heightened and then when she's like laying in the puddle. So I guess that's something.
00:05:44
Speaker
I like that they included a scene about her not having insurance because the boss is saying to Dr. Kotter like, oh, you admitted this person, they don't have insurance. And the boss is Kal Penn from Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, which is like, yeah, like I hate that my brain is typecasted him. I want him to be able to do more, but it's hard because I've seen Harold and Kumar go to White Castle and escape from Guantanamo Bay a bunch.
00:06:13
Speaker
Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay is my problematic fave movie. And so I really can't see Kalkine without picturing him fucking a giant bag of weed and lingerie, which is not a serious moment, clearly. And I do think that it impacts it a little bit for me. But I like that when we first see him. I think this is when we first see him. He's like, why'd you admit this, girl? She has no insurance. And Dr. Kotter is like,
00:06:42
Speaker
Okay, but she needs treatment and he says something about the board and like how he has to answer to them. And she's like, well, maybe the board should try giving a shit. Which I feel, I feel that. I was like, yes. I agree.
Tone and Engagement Issues
00:06:55
Speaker
And then the police are there and I don't think we find out until later about one of the cops is her ex boyfriend. And one of them is like super stigmatizing and weird. What did he say?
00:07:08
Speaker
He says, she's a head case, right? Oh yeah. He's like pretty much just trying to be able to write off her killing herself and like not have to look into it anymore and stigmatizing her. And she says in response to that, she said she had acute post trauma psychosis. And the guy says, well, she sounds fucking crazy to me. Yeah. And then it goes to the body under a sheet and the blood is like soaked through and it looks like a smile. Yeah.
00:07:36
Speaker
Well, and I think, okay, so this is early in the movie, but this was like when I kind of realized that I didn't think the movie was gonna work for me as well as it did the first time. Because this was when I was like, okay, this feels like too much on the border of being cheesy. And like, they're not doing enough to like steer away from being cheesy, but they're not doing enough to like lean into the fact that the premise is honestly a little bit cheesy.
00:07:58
Speaker
with the smile thing. And so I just, the tone of this movie was so off for me the whole time. And the first time I watched it, I had fun and I liked it. This time, I think watching it and kind of paying more attention and thinking about it more, I just, that was one of those moments where I was like, this is bordering on silly, but pretending to be serious in a way that just didn't land. The sheet part or the cop part?
00:08:23
Speaker
all of it. But the sheet part was where I was like, so it's kind of like also when she was cutting her face open, I was like, this is like not effective. And then the cop interaction was cheesy and like seemed like it should have almost been comical, but like wasn't. And then the sheet part happened. And I'm just like, what does this movie want? Like, what do you want me to be like smirking about this or like freaked out? Like, I can't tell what you're trying to make me feel with this.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that it's hard to get away from with a smile, that it's hard to be like totally serious to smile. But I am really scared of the smiling people, especially like watching people do violent things to themselves while smiling. That shook me. I think they could have done it and not had it been cheesy, but they added too many things.
00:09:07
Speaker
and like too many ways of doing the scenes that just made it have that little bit of it. It gave me like an itch for cheese that wasn't getting scratched. An itch for cheese. But it was like too much, you know what I mean? But it was too much that I had a hard time taking it seriously, I
Visual Elements and Horror Techniques
00:09:23
Speaker
think. Yeah. And it just felt like when you're listening to like a song that's very off key, you know what I mean? And I was like, there's something here that I think is good and like valuable, but it's just like not
00:09:34
Speaker
doing it right. I definitely could see it getting made a few different ways. And I think I might enjoy some of them more. I noticed this time watching it that when she drives home from the hospital, the camera flips, so she's driving upside down. And then that happens again later when she's driving to her mom's house. Yeah. And I like that perspective shift that happened in hereditary too. Yeah.
00:10:00
Speaker
And I especially like that because sometimes they'll do like spinny things or something like that. And that makes me dizzy. But just being upside down, if they do it like effectively, it usually doesn't make me dizzy. Yeah. Cause it's like a slow, it's not like all of a sudden you're like being flipped around and flipped around. It was like a slow kind of tilt. Yeah.
00:10:20
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So this is one of the cheesier scenes where I was like, this is weird. This feels like it's something out of like Grey's Anatomy or something where like the cop comes back to her work the next day, who's her ex and is like waiting for her. And she's like, I don't have time for this. And the nurse behind the desk is like, you know, she's engaged, right? But I'm single. Right. It's like, what like this doesn't fit it like
00:10:42
Speaker
It literally was like someone shoved a bunch of random puzzle pieces from different puzzles together. And I was just like, what's happening here? Yeah. And then we see Rose. He is like the initial patient who was saying like, you're going to die. I'm going to die. She's going to die. And he has the creepy smile or at least he's like the one person who I like am never sure. Cause I, is he doing the creepy smile or is he just smiling? I don't know.
00:11:09
Speaker
I think he's not doing anything because when it flashes back to him after, so she sees him and he's like yelling at her and he's doing the creepy smile, but when she calls for help and says that the patient needs to be restrained or whatever, he's like laying in the bed facing the other way. He's not even up and alert. Yeah, I didn't like that. That was upsetting. Yeah, that was a very hard scene to watch.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah. I think like psych hospitals can often be really dangerous and traumatizing places. Yeah. And then they, she gets asked to take a leave because I think that they recognized that she didn't interpret the situation correctly. And she says, I might've misinterpreted and overreact. Yeah. And I mean, I think it would have made sense for her to take the time off even just after what happened. Right. I agree.
00:11:55
Speaker
like I feel like it was silly for her to come back. And I just like I think this is like another thing for me with the movie is like, I just like don't buy that somebody in her position is denying a week a paid week off of work. Well, she seems like a workaholic. Yeah, that's true. She's definitely like working to like
00:12:12
Speaker
deal with other people's stuff so she can like run from her own stuff and all of that. But I still just was like, you work in a like psych hospital, that is one of the most stressful jobs you can have doing counseling. And you're like getting offered a paid week off to like, just be with yourself. And you're like saying no to that. So that's just like icks me. But yeah, I mean, I do agree that it's because she's a workaholic, but I'm just like, this is like ridiculous.
00:12:37
Speaker
Yeah. And then she, I think the next scene we see that she goes to see her therapist and she asks for Risperdahl, which I think is an antipsychotic. Yeah, it is. So she thinks that she's like pretty aware that she's having hallucinations. And it was surprising to me that the therapist was like, no, or the psychiatrist, I guess, or at least like that she said no and like didn't ask really more questions about the hallucinations or it just seemed
00:13:04
Speaker
That part seemed weird to me. Well, they also didn't have an appointment. Oh, really? I don't remember that. No. I noticed that I wrote at that point, is the therapist ever real? Because there's a point when she's not. But I think after seeing other scenes, she is real.
Therapy Realism and Hallucinations
00:13:18
Speaker
But there's still like a lot of weirdness there. The first time we see the therapist, she's just waiting in the stairwell of the therapist's office, which is like, obviously not like appropriate or how you do like, I don't think she had an appointment. I think she was just there.
00:13:32
Speaker
because the therapist was surprised to see her. Oh, I don't remember the therapist being surprised, and I guess I read it as that's where she was waiting for the therapist when the appointment started, because sometimes I've waited in weird places when I did have an appointment.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah, but the therapist was like just getting there. Yeah, I don't know that part didn't seem weird to me either. But I don't remember her being surprised, which does make a difference. She seemed a little surprised. That's how I read it. I read it as like this person just showed up. I guess I just assumed she had an appointment. No, it didn't seem that way to me. But I also think that typically can't just like go into a psychiatrist and be like, give me this medication. Right. I guess that's not been my experience. A lot of times I have been like, I think
00:14:11
Speaker
that this medication would be helpful for me. And they were like, okay, but not with antipsychotics. So I don't know. But I've had antipsychotics offered to me when I didn't want them more than being and I guess that's like mostly what I've heard from people too. So it was kind of weird to me that she was like, okay, yeah, you're having hallucinations, but just keep on keeping on.
00:14:31
Speaker
I don't I that wasn't the impression that it gave me it was more like the therapist to me or like I guess she's a psychiatrist she also does counseling but like the impression to me was more that she was saying like you just went through a crazy thing like one day ago maybe give yourself a minute to breathe and like see how you do you know what I mean like I don't think it makes sense to put someone on antipsychotics like two days after something like that I mean I'm not a psychiatrist but I think many people experience hallucinations after trauma
00:15:00
Speaker
or even after losing a loved one in a non-super-traumatic way. You know what I mean? It's not actually that uncommon, and it's not that alarming. I feel like she didn't ask enough questions, though, because the hallucinations she was having, specifically she was having that we were seeing, were alarming, and they hadn't even gotten to the peak of their being alarming yet, but she just didn't ask enough about them. I think it makes sense that people would have hallucinations after a loss, and especially experiencing
00:15:28
Speaker
traumatic loss in front of your eyes. But I don't know, I think the one she was having seemed outside of that to me, which like, I don't know if that's just like, I was already reading it that way, because I've already seen the movie. I think you might have been putting some of the stuff that happens after
00:15:44
Speaker
into that. But I'm trying to remember exactly what she actually sees before that, but I don't remember it being too intense until after. But I also, I really was under the impression that she just showed up there. I really felt like she was there without a deployment. That was 100% the vibe that I got both times I watched the movie. Yeah, I think that would change how I felt.
00:16:04
Speaker
The impression that I felt of the entire situation with the therapist slash psychiatrist was like, she used to see the psychiatrist. The psychiatrist wanted her to talk about her past. She was not willing to do it. And when she came in, the psychiatrist didn't ask her a bunch of stuff about what she was seeing, but she basically said, do you think the reason this is so upsetting to you is because your mom killed herself? Right. I mean, she says it more delicately than that. But like, I don't know. That like made perfect sense as a follow up question to me. Like,
00:16:33
Speaker
do you think the reason this is like shaking you so much is because it's bringing up this old stuff. And she's like, well, I'm not I'm we're not going there. Right. So I don't know. Yeah. And she's, she's specifically, she specifically says, because you still feel like your mother suicides your fault, that she's taking responsibility for it. And she's like talking about how she's taking too much responsibility for the patient that killed herself too. Right. But right. Yeah. No, I see that like she
00:16:59
Speaker
She seems like she had stopped going to therapy probably because she didn't want to go into any of that and like how can you get anywhere.
00:17:07
Speaker
Right. And I think there's a difference between someone that you have been working with that you're like doing all the stuff about and you being like, Oh, I think this like medication might be helpful that I heard about versus you fully like leaving therapy because you don't want to actually do therapy and then showing up and being like, I need an antipsychotic today. You know what I mean? Like, we don't even have a concept of how long it's been since she's seen this person. Like, I'm just like, I don't know. Because she also refers to her as her former therapist at some point.
00:17:33
Speaker
So it's not like they're in an ongoing therapeutic relationship. Yeah, I think that's why it's extra hard to tell when she's real later, too. Yeah. I mean, it's not even realistic that she'd be able to see her on the same day, but every time I've needed emergency psychiatric services, I end up having to wait three or four months to see somebody.
00:17:55
Speaker
Well, that's also why I felt like she had just shown up because I was like, there's no way, like, there's no way. Yeah. There's no way that you're her first patient of the next day. And we didn't see you call her. I remember her calling her. I don't. Maybe that's later, though. But I definitely remember them talking on the phone. That was like when the fake therapist was there way later in the movie, though. No, I remember before that, I think.
00:18:19
Speaker
I don't know. I don't remember her calling. The next scene I wrote down, so she like is quickly deteriorating. The next scene I wrote down is the dead cat at the nephew's birthday party.
00:18:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And she's she's been having hallucinations in her house. And like, I recognize the time when she killed the cat this time. Oh, I didn't. Oh, really? Yeah, wait, when was it? She keeps having stuff with the like her alarm keeps going off the house alarm. And there's one time when she calls and says her back door is open. And she doesn't know like why happened. I'm pretty sure that's when the cat died because then the cat wasn't around.
00:18:56
Speaker
Oh, that makes sense. Because I think the first time I saw it, I thought that maybe the cat like got out because it was like after that that the cat was missing. So I got
00:19:04
Speaker
I mean, obviously that's not what happened. The first time that was how my head made sense of that, but no, that makes sense. That she went into a fugue state and then realized that the door was open after. But the alarm went off. See, this is what I'm saying, this movie, when you start to poke at it. I mean, I've set off house alarms accidentally a lot, and if she had it armed and didn't turn it off and then opened the door and just left it open, it would go off.
00:19:30
Speaker
But it would go off when she opened the door, not like however long later, right? I mean, I think it probably did.
00:19:36
Speaker
But then how did she have time to kill the cat and clean up? There's no blood anywhere? Like, I don't know. It just doesn't like... Like, I think you're right. I think that, like, the movie is saying this is when it happened, but I think it doesn't, like, you know, it doesn't check out when I, like, try to figure it out. I think she just killed the cat outside and then came back in and the phone rang, because it's the phone that kind of, like... Is it the alarm or the phone that, like, triggers her out of it? I think the alarm is going off while she's still kind of...
00:20:01
Speaker
No, the alarm first. But she's still kind of out of it while the alarm's going off, isn't she? I think that's like the part that gets confusing. I don't remember. She like goes and grabs, she seems like startled by the alarm. She like goes and grabs a knife. And then she sees that the door's open. And she's like walking and she checks her front door and she checks her back. Yeah, she like checks her doors. I don't think she's like totally with it, but I don't think she's like
00:20:24
Speaker
not like she's there registering the alarm and trying to like solve the issue of the alarm. Something that did bother me is the number of times she broke a wine glass because she was scared like the first time I was like okay and the second time I was like okay and the third time I was like really? Right and even the husband or the fiance is like did you break another glass and like this is another one of those moments where I was like you want it to be funny but you don't.
00:20:47
Speaker
Like this would be funny if this movie had a different tone. It would have been a funny line and he would have been like, did you break another wine clot? You know what I mean? Like it had it in, it was like in the scene, but it like wasn't in the scene. Yeah. The alarm thing though for me just made me think of when, when I was a dog walker, there was this one house where I kept accidentally setting off the alarm and I would have to wait for the police to come every time. It would make me so late for the rest of the day. It was so annoying.
00:21:12
Speaker
And yeah, I also noticed when she was getting the box and what she thinks she's giving her nephew, which is earlier, she goes to a train store, I think on the way home actually, when she's told to take a leave, maybe after she sees the therapist. But she goes and gets a train set and the box that we later see the kid take the dead cat out of. That was probably the most upsetting scene of the movie to me. Again, just hate dead animals.
00:21:41
Speaker
You said like you're
Impactful Scenes and Emotional Weight
00:21:43
Speaker
kind of expecting to see dead people, but when you see dead animals, it's just like, oh man. Yeah. And especially seeing like her nephew, they're like at a birthday party and she just starts saying like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. When she sees it. And she also is like seeing one of the weird smiling people show up at that party too.
00:22:04
Speaker
Right. And she's also finding out that her cat is dead. Right. Because she may have done it, but she's not like aware of it. Right. Yeah, no, she wasn't. She didn't do it lucidly. I mean, when I first saw it, I was like, who did that versus like, knowing that she was the one who did it.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, I guess it's not totally clear how much the hallucinations that are like, I mean, they're not like exactly hallucinations. Like, it's not really clear like if they can do things. Right, it is a creature. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know if I'm supposed to feel like they can actually like manipulate the world at all or not. Like, I'm just I don't feel like that was explained.
00:22:38
Speaker
So like Kuna, maybe she did it, but like maybe it did it. I don't, I don't even really feel like I know. I think it did it through her. Like when we finally meet the creature, it's like saying, you're not going to be able to get rid of me. And like says, I forgot, she says something like, you're not allowed here. And he's like, but your mind is so inviting. Is that what he says? Yeah. Oh my God. Yikes. Yeah. It's like pretty soon. Yeah. She falls through the glass. Then she ends up at the ER and her boss, Kalpen is there again. Like.
00:23:07
Speaker
What the hell? What's going on, dude? And then her fiance leaves her and is like, your mom was crazy. You're crazy. It's genetic, I should know. And asks if she killed Mustache. And that's like the first time that I was like, oh, wow, you look like very noticeably unwell. It like turns around to her. Well, and I think also part of what makes it like even more intense seeming is that like when she falls through the glass table, she cuts up her forearms. And so
00:23:36
Speaker
her forearms specifically are like super bandaged, which just brings to mind like self harm or like suicide attempt, right? Like it's like, yeah, the way that she's wrapped up kind of like adds to that picture of her as like being incredibly not okay. Yeah.
00:23:53
Speaker
Now I'm thinking I feel like part of the tone thing is that they hired like comedic actors and maybe they're actors who are trying to break out of that but like Kalpen and then the she starts googling like what's going on and the other people killed themselves.
00:24:09
Speaker
and finds the professor's wife, who's played by Judy Reyes, who plays Carla from Scrubs. And like, I love her and like, I think I have seen her in some more serious things, but it is like, Kalpen and Judy Reyes, when I see them, I'm like, expecting to laugh more. I think that might've been some of the tone disruption. I don't know, cause I felt, I felt like the scene where she was talking to the, what, say her name again, sorry.
00:24:37
Speaker
Judy Reyes is the actor. I just was calling her the professor's wife in my notes. Yeah. So when she's talking to the professor's wife, that seems like the scene that is like the most consistently serious out of like kind of the whole movie. Like I was like, this one has like no, there's no part of it where I'm like, are you like joking? Like felt like that scene actually did land for me a little bit better.
00:25:01
Speaker
I think the art, like it was both spooky, but that I can see that in a cheesy way. Yeah. Like it was creepy, but it is like, I think it is just like the smile is like, okay, like what it feels kind of like it's supposed to be like tongue in cheek. But I mean, she's definitely serious when she's like once Dr. Carter's are saying your husband wasn't insane and like that she's seeing the things because I think she had pretended to be a journalist or something like that.
00:25:28
Speaker
the professor is like, get out of here, and calls her a nutcase. And that's when I looked up the etymology of the use of nutcase, because I was like, what a weird phrase. But I guess since the 1700s, we've been calling heads nuts, but nutcase itself was first used in 1955. And it was just funny, I think I said this to you already, but I'm just gonna say it anyway, because it still makes me laugh kind of.
00:25:54
Speaker
I think that it would make more sense for them to call an asylum a nutcase than a person. I really still feel that way. Because it encases. The nuts, right? Not to like, not to like, I don't like love that word, but like I do, I just can't help but think that. Right, like there's nut house. Which is funny because this also, this is totally random, but when we were like little,
00:26:18
Speaker
My uncle used to do this thing where he would put his hands on both sides of our heads and like shake our head. Not like violent. This sounds like violent. It was not. It was like a gentle little thing. But he would go, I'm gonna crush your head like a nut. And he would go like this, just like a little shake of that. Like it didn't hurt. It wasn't like, it was like a totally, like it was always read as a joke by like all of us, but it's just like, make me think of that. Yeah. I remember some childhood song that was like, um, a nut.
00:26:48
Speaker
and they like knock on their head. Oh my god, I do too. I might have like actually been a nut. Now I need to know what it is. Yeah, because that just unlocked something in my brain for sure. Oh, yeah, this is it. But I don't know what it's from. But wow, wow, this is unlocking a big thing. I think it's a camp song. Welcome to Weezing's official YouTube channel. It's like this image.
00:27:12
Speaker
It's like a nut laying in the grass. I know this song from my overnight camp that I briefly went to. I'm a nut, I'm a nut, I'm a nut, I'm a nut, I'm a nut. Wow. Took myself to the movie show, stayed too late and said, let's go. Took my hand and lit me up, drove me home and gave a shout. I'm a nut.
00:27:40
Speaker
I'm a nut, I'm a nut, I'm a nut. Oh no, it's calling. Nope, don't call emergency services. Thanks. Ours was a little bit different, but it was the same song. It says it's from We Sing in Sillyville. I don't know what that is. I know it from camp. Now that I'm thinking of how it goes, I'm sure that I know it from camp, but the lyrics were a little bit different. But a lot of it is the same, it seems. But ours was not just I'm a nut in the car, it was I'm a nut.
00:28:06
Speaker
I'm crazy. That was actually in the song. But a lot of the rest of it was the same. Like I remember not the same exact as what you just said. I'm looking at some different versions of it online right now. But it is the melody is the same and stuff and the lyrics are very similar. I remember this talking tree and I remember she like turned her outfit like turns colors and glows and stuff. Wow.
00:28:30
Speaker
Yeah, the video does not seem even remotely familiar to me, honestly. Man, I definitely watched this. It was released in 1989. I think I just found the one that is the same as the one from my channel. Oh, nice. Play it. I don't know. I don't know how it's going to sound when I play it. I'm just looking at the lyrics. Let's see. Oh, it's just playing. It's playing in my headphones. It wants to play in my headphones. It's also not playing the lyrics anyway. It's only playing the tune. Okay.
00:28:54
Speaker
My favorite verse, this is the one that was from camp. It took myself to the movie show, sat myself in the very front row, wrapped my arms around my waist, got so fresh I slapped my face, I'm a nut, in a rut. I'm crazy. I remember that one. Yeah, I remember that one.
00:29:13
Speaker
That wasn't in the video. That's why I said it must have been a little bit different. I remember that, but I don't remember the inner, or I'm crazy part. But I remember the verse that you just said, the movie show one. And I, maybe I did it at a camp too, or I don't know, my mom's a preschool teacher. So I know like a lot of weird songs like that. Oh, it could have been a preschool one too, for sure. Yeah. And then she goes to see her crop X again. I think like,
00:29:41
Speaker
He's mostly in the movie so that she has access to the records of the past killings and can connect all of this because I don't know how else that would have happened.
00:29:51
Speaker
especially because the one person who was related to someone who was killed through this string of suicides is not wanting to jog her. I wrote down in my notes here, I kind of feel like at least they aren't killing other people, but it's not like these people don't seem like they were suicidal before. They all have had some history of violent crime in their life and some kind of loss, which seems to make them vulnerable to this creature
00:30:21
Speaker
demon being thing, but it seems like they're being forced to commit suicide. But then there is one guy who avoids it by committing murder instead. Yeah. And I do think that it kind of feels to me like this movie is less about like the person who's actually struggling and more about like
00:30:39
Speaker
Not less about that, but I think that the movie is also very much about the way that you actually do impact other people when you're struggling like that. I don't think it did it in a way that felt rude to people who are, but I do think that a lot of it was about this is really hard for everybody. I think that the husband or the fiance, whatever, was a bad example of that because he was kind of a piece of shit. He was looking for a way out, I felt, and this was just an easy one to take.
00:31:06
Speaker
But I think that the sister, like the way she lashes out at the sister who's really is just kind of trying to protect herself. And trying to protect her son. You know, like emotionally and like the effect that it has on them. Right? Like I think that that is like a big theme of the movie too, of just like, because when she goes and talks to the wife of the professor, right?
Family Dynamics and Trauma Exploration
00:31:26
Speaker
Like you see how distraught she was about like his behavior, his painting, right? Like it's like, you kind of start to see like,
00:31:32
Speaker
Yes, there's this trail of people who died, but there's also thinking about all of the people left in the wake of that, and what do they do now? Right, and the sister acknowledges their mom's mental illness and says, I'm sorry that I left you with her and you bared the brunt of it because of that, but I had to get out for my own well-being, and it does seem like her sister
00:31:54
Speaker
Her sister seems more settled than she is, although I find like I mean I think we're supposed to find her sister and her sister's husband kind of obnoxious when we like go to dinner with them in the beginning and she's like not really respecting anything she's saying.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that it also is kind of like they're obnoxious, but they're not like I don't like hate them. You know what I mean? They're like not obnoxious in the way that like some like movie characters will be obnoxious. Like she's almost obnoxious in a way that like to me speaks to I just want to like have a normal life. Do you not see that I just want to be normal? Yeah.
00:32:29
Speaker
You know what I mean? Which is a frustrating thing, but also I do think that in the context of what we know about their family history, I think it makes a lot of sense that she's like, I want to have enough money. I want to have a family. I want to be a PTA mom. I don't want to be remarkable or do anything that's a big deal. I just want to be a normal person.
00:32:48
Speaker
I definitely felt a lot more empathy for her like once like at the birthday party scene and when she's saying like that she needs to protect her family and that what's happening to her is what happened to their mom. I felt kind of torn between like okay you need to protect your family and could you do more to try to get her help because I felt like this felt like very similar to like I it was a good metaphor for mental illness because
00:33:14
Speaker
it made her so isolated like all of the people who maybe like could have helped her ended up sort of leaving her and like her fiance did try to talk to the therapist with her which like I also feel a little weird about because I feel like he should have talked to her about that first but I don't know yeah I felt like all the people who should have helped her kind of just left her but she was also like pushing everybody away and saying I have to be alone
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, and it also seems like she's been like refusing help for a long time. Yeah. Like that was the impression that, which like speaks to another reason that I didn't love her character is because therapists who are avoidant of their own therapy are like one of my big, I mean, honestly, people who are avoidant of therapy are like one of my biggest pet peeves, but therapists and like people who work in mental health who are avoidant of getting their own therapy is something that grates on me in a way that I like don't even have language to describe.
00:34:05
Speaker
And I felt like that was really, really heavily implied, if not said explicitly in the movie, that she has kind of not been willing to get the help that she's needed already. And so I can kind of understand, I agree with you, and I also know the feeling of trying to get someone help. And even if you get them the help, it's like if they're not going to do it, they're not going to do it. And it's so much work. It's so much work to get somebody into care.
00:34:31
Speaker
of some sort, of any sort. And then for them to just not be willing to engage with it is a really agonizing experience. And we don't know the extent to which they've already tried to do that. I don't know. I'm just something to think about. I think thinking of the past and her not being willing makes sense, but I felt like she was very explicitly asking for help from her sister and other people and trying to say,
00:34:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she was like, this thing's coming to get me and I need help. And I think that maybe it does. Their response makes more sense to me if they have tried to get her help in the past. Yeah, and I don't know if they've tried to get her help, but I think they've probably they may have just witnessed her kind of refusal to really accept help.
00:35:11
Speaker
But I think also the help she was asking for was not the help that she needed. Well, I guess it was like if you believe that the monster is real, like whatever in the movie universe, right? But like in the metaphor of mental illness, the help she was asking for isn't the help that's needed. And so how do you tell someone, you don't need me to help you solve this mystery. You need me to take you to a hospital. Like how do you say that to someone? I mean, you say it like that, but like I understand also that like for a lot of people that like feels
00:35:40
Speaker
feels impossible in that moment. Yeah. I think that it is the creature is, I mean, I don't know how people make a creature real or not and or a metaphor or not in movies really.
Creature Analysis: Effective or Not?
00:35:53
Speaker
Well, because I think it's both. Like I think in a movie like this, it's both like the monster is real in the movie. But like, like I think that the point of it is the metaphor. Yeah. And I like that we actually see the creature because that makes it seem more real to me. And I yeah, I don't think that means it's not a metaphor.
00:36:08
Speaker
But sometimes when I don't see the creature at all, then I am more apt to view it through the lens of metaphor only. Yeah. I liked that we saw the creature and I liked the imagery of the creature crawling through the mouth or whatever to get inside the person. But whoever's face it's wearing right before that, when it peels its face off to reveal its real face,
00:36:31
Speaker
the real face is cheesy looking. It's like, there's something about it that like made me almost want to laugh. And not like a shocked laugh, but like a laugh of like, oh my God, is this the thing? I don't know, I don't know what it was. How it looked scared me a lot watching it, but it also isn't like, I can't recall the face that easily, I think, because there was like a lot going on. I'm pulling up a picture of it right now. It isn't like one of the things that has stuck with me as a scary image.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's the several mouths thing. Like, I'm gonna send you this picture.
00:37:04
Speaker
so that you can look at it with me and we can we can react to it together um but i think for me it's like goofy i don't know there's something about it that feels a little goofy looking that i can't quite put my finger on yeah it's not what i expect it to look like we we see it at another time when it maybe it's like half it and half the other thing i because i find that face more scary where it's like i'm sending in
00:37:32
Speaker
Like the mom, when it's like the monster-fied version of the mom. Yeah, the monster-fied version of the mom. Like it's not the normal mom, but it's like the mom with like a really big forehead and angry eyes. Yeah, and she's like grown up, grown up the wall kind of. Yeah. Yeah, that I thought was scary. I thought that part was way scarier, but when the face got peeled off and we saw that, I was like, that's your face? What?
00:37:57
Speaker
It's funny, like, the eyes, they didn't really do anything to the eyes except for, like, it looks like a skeleton with eyes in it, plus flesh, mouths. But it's interesting, like, the eyes, you're right, like, the eyes don't look scary, they look kind of funny. The teeth don't look scary either, they look kind of funny too. Like, I don't know. I'm looking at it and I feel like this is something out of the scary movie franchise. Like, that's how it feels to me. It doesn't feel like that to me, but it is, it feels like something that could be in Beetlejuice.
00:38:27
Speaker
Also, yes, I could see that too. But just not a movie that takes itself this seriously is really what I'm getting at. It's just another thing that feels disjointed from whatever the tone is supposed to be. But I don't know what the tone is supposed to be. You know what I mean? I don't really know. Yeah, it was also weird. Now I know that it wasn't the real therapist, but when the therapist just shows up at her house, I was like, what?
00:38:51
Speaker
Boundaries. And then we find out that it's not the real therapist. That's one of the scariest parts to me is the idea of people in your life, like you thinking you're having normal interactions with them and then realizing that it's not
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that I agree with you. I think that is like one of the scarier things about the movie. And I think that that was why the scene with the patient Carl at the hospital was so upsetting, because a lot of it is about like how it can be scary for the person who's having it. But like, I mean, that moment of just like, she the way that like, she has that power that like, is not in check in that moment. And I mean, in my notes about that scene, I literally just wrote Yikes, poor Carl, Carl,
00:39:31
Speaker
has a bad time in this whole movie then luckily this doesn't actually happen but in one of her visions that she thinks is real she finds out that she has to kill somebody to pass on the thing if she wants to end up not killing herself and she like kind of decides that she's gonna kill Carl and we see her go in there and this was cheesy too actually but I think I think sometimes it like
00:39:54
Speaker
felt like it was getting too serious or like whoever was making it was like uh maybe we should add some cheese I don't know but it you're right but I didn't think of it as cheesy at the time I just thought like oh okay but we see her stab Carl well she's holding a knife she's in the room Carl's like what are you doing and then her boss comes in and she's like now's my time and like stabs Carl in front of her and I was like oh my god Carl no Carl now I'm thinking of the llama
00:40:22
Speaker
Carl, you can't eat hands. You can't eat people. Eating people kills people. But then she is stabbing him. And then the way that she realizes that it's not really happening is her boss starts peeling off the face in the same kind of way, which later we connect and are like, oh, OK, creature.
00:40:45
Speaker
cool, you'd like to peel off faces, fine. But the way that the face is peeled off, I don't know how you do that in like a, I've definitely seen face peeling that wasn't cheesy, but the way that they are doing it does just hit that line for some reason. But then she's like in her car, she wakes up, she's like, that didn't really happen, shit. And she like screams, she keeps, she's screaming in her car a lot. And then her boss is at the window. And then as she was like driving away and her boss is like, let me help you, I'll get you help. That, you tried.
00:41:13
Speaker
Well, he saw a knife in her car. He saw like a giant knife in her car. Yeah, but as she's driving away, she sees him like turn into Carl and like all bloody and she's like, and like drives away. And that was also like, they took up a lot of time just having her drive clunkily. That scene I remember being like, she's certainly taking a long time to get out of this parking lot for like how much she's supposed to be like speeding away.
00:41:37
Speaker
And then her cop ex calls her and is like, I just saw an APB saying you're dangerous and armed. Like what the heck is going on? And she's like, I just have to be alone. Then it can't have what it needs. And of course he like follows her there and fulfills the curse's destiny or whatever.
00:41:54
Speaker
I like already don't remember how this movie ended. I thought it ended way faster like I told you like at the hour mark I was like okay she's gonna go to the house she's gonna but I didn't remember like Pat was telling me like oh yeah and then she kills herself and I was like I don't think she kills herself and like I so I yeah I guess I didn't remember that either but I do remember it now
00:42:13
Speaker
I remember up until the very end, but I didn't really remember the very end. Yeah, so she goes to her mom's house. She replays the scene that was actually the very first scene that I had forgotten about where she was 10 years old and her mom overdosed or something like that, but she had called her into the room and was asking her to call 911. And Rose was like, no. Then we see her as adult, Rose.
00:42:38
Speaker
responding to her mom and I thought I thought what she said was actually like very healthy and was like a nice moment of her like kind of reclaiming something.
00:42:49
Speaker
I thought that was just a really interesting choice though to have the story be that her mom like explicitly said to her like I fucked up like I need you to call for help and her not do like I thought that was a really interesting choice compared to just her like freezing after like finding her mom unconscious or something like I thought the fact that they actually had this back and forth was like a very interesting decision. Yeah and I think it speaks a lot to why she's had trouble going into it in therapy because she's is like
00:43:16
Speaker
this is like totally my fault and maybe she's shared with therapists that her mom killed herself and she was there but not shared that part and I could see how that would be really hard to share but I also think as an adult you can't blame yourself for making that kind of decision as a child. And then yeah we see like another fake scene where like
00:43:33
Speaker
that this is where we see like the mom is the monster and then the face peeling not great and then she like figures out that she can burn it down and she's like i got away from you oh yeah this is a whole scene that's like unnecessarily long because she like we think she's burnt down the house she goes to the ex's house and then the ex is like actually the smiling creature thing and that's when he's like
00:43:56
Speaker
You can never get away from me. And then she's like back outside the house and it's like not burned down at all. And she's like, what the fuck? And then, then her ex actually shows up there and she's like, no, no, no, get away from me. I'm going to kill myself in front of you. And then you're going to have, and this is how it all happens. And she like runs into the house and then he gets into the house and she is like wearing lighter fluid or something on herself and lights herself up. And then we see the thing kind of get passed on to him because his,
00:44:25
Speaker
eyes widen. But that was like, I don't know. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing, I think. But I thought it was enjoyable to watch. I would recommend watching it, but I don't think I would watch it again now.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah. I feel the same way. Like I really did think it was like fun to watch the first time, but I don't think it like holds up to that much scrutiny. So like, I think it's like one to watch when you're just like, I want to watch something that will freak me
Final Thoughts and Rating Debate
00:44:49
Speaker
out for that. I was thinking a lot about like, so is there a way to end this? There's definitely a way to end it, but it fucks with the metaphor in a big way because the way to end it would be to kill yourself privately. Like that's like actually how you could end it.
00:45:03
Speaker
would be for like me to come in my house and like be by myself and like be like alright well I'm gonna die I can either like die right now and like not have this thing get passed on or I can like wait till it kills me but that's like kind of fucked up for the metaphor that they're trying to do here of like mental illness
00:45:18
Speaker
Because the solution to mental illness is not killing yourself, obviously. Right. And it made me think about suicide contagion a lot, too. I think it's a metaphor for that. But I think it gets weird to me because I know a lot of curse movies, like your curse to die, the ring kind of thing. I guess there is a creature and a curse in the ring. She's not really a creature. But it is confusing having a creature and a curse. To me, it feels like two things at once. And I think it gets more complicated.
00:45:48
Speaker
I don't know. I kind of thought of it as like a demon type of a thing. Cause like it follows is like that too. I've never seen it follows. Oh, really? Oh, that's a really, you should watch that. That was, that's a good movie. I think it's on our list.
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah, I would definitely watch that. And I think that's actually like one of my other things about this movie was that like, I kind of see what it was trying to do. And like, I could put it in a category with some of these other movies that try to do the mental health conversation and the and stuff. And this one has like its own thing about the suicide contagion and stuff like that. But I think like in general, there's just other movies that kind of do a better job of like having there be like a kind of demonic or haunting metaphor for mental illness and
00:46:28
Speaker
I don't know. I know you don't like rating things, really, but I think if I was going to rate it, I would give it like a seven out of 10, maybe six and a half. Really? I'd probably give it like closer to a five. I don't know. I'm not like good at rating things because I don't really know what I'm supposed to be like rating them against or whatever. Well, I think of like a 10 as like my ideal or favorite movie, but I'm not thinking of a specific movie. But like if it hits like all of the points and has few outliers.
00:46:56
Speaker
I don't know. We should come up with a rating system. That's what we need. We're doing ghosties, but we need like, I'm going to make us a rubric. Yeah. Like I need guidelines if I'm going to rate something because I can't just like rate it with nothing. Yeah. It's easier for me to like rank stuff. That's fair. And it is, I have found like when I have actual guidelines for how I'm rating, sometimes I rate differently than when I'm just thinking of it off the top of my head and I'll be like surprised at how different it is.
00:47:23
Speaker
What do you think sticks with you the most about this movie? Definitely the cat scene, but what I said is the most haunting is the idea of having interactions with people you know and then realizing that they're not real. That makes sense. Or that it was something else that was happening.
00:47:41
Speaker
someone else. What is it for you? I mean, I think the parts that are like that fuck me up the most are like not the supernatural parts, which is not uncommon for me. But I think I mean, honestly, the part where her mom is like talking to her and she's like not calling for help is like really like that's like a really disturbing scene. Yeah, that is really disturbing.
00:48:01
Speaker
Yeah, and I like have very complex feelings about it that I don't think I could even like explain. So that really like stuck in my head a little bit. And then I honestly think like when they go when they like swoop into Carl's room in the hospital, and he's just like laying on the bed, and he's screaming like, no, no, no, you know, so those are honestly the like, I think more than any of the like actual scary stuff are just really hard to watch. Yeah, I definitely found when there were time Carl down really upsetting. Also,
00:48:27
Speaker
I feel like you could make a whole horror movie in a psych hospital. I think there are ones, but all the ones I've seen are in like old, tiny hospitals.
00:48:37
Speaker
You should watch Unsane. I will. But yeah, I think, I don't know. I think that this movie was like really trying to do something. I don't think it did it as well as it wanted to. I don't think it knew what it was trying to do exactly with the tone. I think that if this had like stayed in workshop mode for like an extra year, it probably would have been phenomenal. Like I think there's a good movie buried in there, but it didn't fall into place the right way. I agree. It definitely had potential to be better.
00:49:04
Speaker
And I think it's disappointing when a movie that's trying to have a serious conversation of some sort does fall through in that way. It's always like, oh, I like want this to be, I wanted this to work and it just kind of didn't. I wonder if the writer felt like it came out as their vision or not. Cause I know like often, especially like selling a movie to a studio, I don't know who the writer is or anything about them, but like, I know like sometimes their visions will get pretty warped by the studio.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah. Like what they think is going to sell. For sure. You lose like a level of control over it if you're not doing everything totally independently. It's written and directed by Parker Finn and it was his directorial debut. But I like, I really like reading the production notes on Wikipedia. I feel like it's harder to like talk about a relay other than just reading it. So I think if people are interested in that, they should just go read it themselves. But it is really interesting. Like, like for seven, the production notes are really interesting.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's really interesting to me that the writer and it was written and directed by the same person and it still didn't. I almost feel like I wouldn't have guessed that and I'm not like super into like the production stuff. I don't like know a lot about it, but I would think that some of how it felt could have been somebody reading a script that had one tone and interpreting it in a different tone and directing it that way. It's interesting to me that this was all
00:50:25
Speaker
one guy. So it says that it was originally based on his Parker Finn short film, Laura hasn't slept, where a young woman is seeking help of her therapist to get rid of recurring nightmares. And I'm curious to watch that. It says Paramount Pictures asked him to make it into a feature length film. And I think maybe it just it would maybe it was harder to translate that way.
00:50:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm probably gonna watch that because I tend to really like short films for horror. They really do tend to be scary. This actually says that it kind of works as a prequel. I don't know how true that is, but I tend to like that. The movie that I want us to watch that I think does a better job of some similar themes is Lights Out, and that one is also based on a short film.
00:51:08
Speaker
But the short film is a little bit less substantial and heavy on theme than the actual full movie is. But I remember when I saw the short film, I was like, ah! And if you've seen the short film, anybody listening, you know exactly when I felt that way. Have you seen the movie, They Look Like People? I think that's one that we're going to watch pretty soon also.
00:51:34
Speaker
I just never know which ones you've seen. I'm putting that on our list. I haven't seen a lot of movies. I do want to make a list of the movies. I mean, we're kind of doing it like through the podcast, but in general, I want to make a list of the movies that I have watched because people ask me.
00:51:48
Speaker
Even when people ask me what my favorite shows or movies are, I often forget them until I see the title or am watching them again. And then I'm like, oh, right, I love this. I remember when my whole personality was because of this show. Yeah. We kind of talked about this before. I had asked you before why you think they made the symbol smiling. That was the main thing. Especially, I'm kind of curious about it because it didn't seem to be connected to the nightmare
00:52:18
Speaker
in the short story, but maybe it is. But that is a weird interjection. And the movie was originally called There's Something Wrong with Rose. So they changed it to smile and made smile, like that's like what the whole thread through the movie is.
00:52:35
Speaker
So was the original motif not going to be the smile, you think? I'm not sure. But I mean, since it wasn't the title, I don't know. I need to look into the plot of Laura Hasn't Slept a little bit and see. I'm probably just going to watch it. Yeah, I think I will. Okay, yeah, it is in her nightmare. A sinister man constantly smiles at her. But I feel like it works better in a nightmare than I don't know.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that that gets into the Freddy Krueger territory. Right, that's true. Which I don't think means you can't do it again, but I could see them being like, do we really want to do that? Yeah, but I agree that sometimes it's easier to do effective, I don't know where it is, explication through short films. Yeah. It can get muddy in a longer thing.
00:53:25
Speaker
But I do really think the things I would have liked to have seen in a longer film are her past with therapy, more of her relationship with her mom beforehand, like what, like we kind of hear what it was like, but I think it might've been more effective to see some scenes of it. And I mean, for all I know they filmed those and cut them, but I think I would have taken out. There were some scenes that just like, they were just moving too slowly. It's not even that the scene was wrong. It was just like, the pacing was just all off.
00:53:55
Speaker
I feel like the short film is probably better. I haven't seen it yet, but I will, I would like put money on it. It was at South by Southwest in 2020. Oh, nice. It's 11 minutes. Yeah, I'll probably watch it at some point today. Oh, it looks like it's on YouTube actually. Oh, it's on Prime also. Cool. Probably watch it later.
00:54:18
Speaker
I wonder why they changed the name from Laura to Rose. Did Laura not test well? Laura is the first one. Laura is the first girl, I think. Even the actress is the same. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen the movie yet, but the actress is the same as the girl who played the first girl in this one. I wonder if maybe that's who it is. I'm excited to see her longer. I really liked that actress. Same.
00:54:43
Speaker
Thanks for listening. I know we didn't have as positive of feelings about this one as we have of some of the movies we talked about, but if you thought that there were some redeeming things that we overlooked, I'd love to hear about them. We'll have another episode in a couple of weeks on Spotify, and for now you can find us over on Instagram at whathauntsupod and send us a DM if you want to talk about Smile.