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S4:E8 Poor Things (2023 Film)
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We’re wrapping up Made of Madness March with one of the wildest adaptations we’ve covered yet: Poor Things by Alasdair Gray and its 2023 film adaptation starring Emma Stone. This strange, bold story about Bella Baxter takes us from page to screen in a way that’s as chaotic as it is fascinating. We break down the biggest differences, the themes of identity and freedom, and whether the movie captured the spirit of the book.
Hosted by Keri with co-hosts Crystal and Lindsey.
Books & Adaptations Mentioned:
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Question of the Episode:
- Who is the greater moral offender: Godwin Baxter or Victor Frankenstein?
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Thanks for listening to Based on a Book—see you in the next chapter!
Chapters:
(00:00) Introductions
(02:25) Content Warning
(03:30) Book Background, Ratings, & Non-Spoiler Reviews
(11:10) Book vs Movie Discussion (SPOILERS)
(54:40) Final Verdicts
(57:30) Question of the Episode
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Expectations
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Base on a Book, the podcast that has gone absolutely rogue. I'm Carrie and I'm stealing one of Lindsay's intros to say I'm conflicted.
00:00:19
Speaker
I'm Lindsay and my empathy is creeping towards what I would describe a contemptuous rage. I'm Crystal and I never thought I would say this, but I'm a little sick of scientists after this month.
00:00:33
Speaker
And it's shocking. I'm shocked Crystal was saying that. today we are wrapping up our Made of Madness March. It has been a long march, but we are wrapping it up by diving into what is probably going to be, in my opinion, the most interesting discussion of a specific book adaptation that we've had in a while. Because
Content Warning and Themes
00:00:57
Speaker
we are talking about Poor Things by Alistair Gray and its 2023 adaptation starring Emma Stone.
00:01:05
Speaker
So I'm curious before we get into this entire episode, what each of your expectations were going into it. Lindsay, you've watched this before, right?
00:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, I watched the movie when it came out back in 2023. Okay, so like you already had like a good idea of what the book was going to be about before yeah reading it. And what about you, Crystal? at Any expectations going into the book or the movie? Yeah. No, I'd seen some previews for the movie, but I never watched it. I knew it was a Frankenstein retelling, but that was all I knew. i You're like, what were your expectations? Not this. Not this. Speechless. Absolutely speechless. i My expectations going in is I knew it was going to be...
00:01:51
Speaker
pretty wild i this is really funny because i remember asking someone because i love watching movies with my family that's like one of my favorite things to do and i remember when this came out i was like i'm gonna we gotta watch poor things you guys we gotta watch this movie and
Feminist Reimagining of Frankenstein
00:02:09
Speaker
i remember talking to a friend saying i wanted to watch it with them and they're like you cannot watch this with your family you cannot watch it with your family so that being said First thing I'm going to get into, which is usually we'd get into this a little further, is I'm going to give a content warning for this episode. So before we get into it this episode covers some of the most, in my opinion, explicit material we've discussed so far on this podcast. Both the book and the film include sexual content, graphic, medical, surgical imagery, and darker themes that we'll be talking about openly. um Our podcast is already explicit. We're cursing, all kinds of stuff. But this discussion may be more detailed than usual because those elements are kind of central to the story, especially of Bella's experiences throughout it. um So if you have younger listeners around,
00:03:09
Speaker
Or prefer to skip heavier topics. Don't. Just don't have younger listeners around for this one. Don't. Headphones. Headphones. You might want to check out one of our other episodes or come back when you're ready.
00:03:25
Speaker
But first thing I'm going to get into is a little bit of the book background because this is an interesting one. um Poor Things was published in 1992 and has received multiple accolades, um including a Guardian Fiction Prize in 1992. We chose as the final piece to our Frankenstein month because it's widely regarded as a feminist reimagining.
00:03:52
Speaker
of Frankenstein. Whether it truly earns that title from our perspective is something we'll explore shortly. If you want our reviews of Frankenstein, be sure to check out our first episode of the month titled Introducing the Madness, where we go into our thoughts on Frankenstein by Mary Shelley.
00:04:09
Speaker
But a quick synopsis of Poor Things It is set in Victorian era Scotland. We follow Bella Baxter, a woman brought back to life by the eccentric scientist Godwin Baxter. ah Bella begins with the mind of a child, literally.
00:04:29
Speaker
but rapidly develops her own intelligence, curiosity, and independence. We follow Bella as she explores the world socially, sexually, and politically as she challenges societal norms that govern women's bodies and autonomy.
00:04:43
Speaker
The structure of the novel is a little bizarre. It's told as like almost like a found manuscript. like a fictional memoir almost. It kind of reminds me of like Princess Bride in that way. We found a book and now I'm going to write you the story of the book.
00:05:02
Speaker
yeah kind of thing Yeah. Yeah. Lindsay, do you have any more like deep, like, do you want to go into detail of how exactly the book is structured? her So this book blends satire, gothic science fiction, and political commentary.
00:05:21
Speaker
And its structure is intentionally to play games with the idea of who gets to tell a story and whose version we actually believe. So one of the most interesting things about the book is, like we were saying, it's got a layered narrative structure. So the novel claims to be edited by Alistair Gray, who's the actual author.
00:05:43
Speaker
It's a written memoir by the character Archibald McCandless. And then it's followed by a rebuttal from Bella herself. So we don't know...
00:05:54
Speaker
what the truth is, which I think is, I think, I think this was fun in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an embedded
Film Adaptation and Visual Style
00:06:02
Speaker
narrative. Exactly.
00:06:05
Speaker
But let's get into our book ratings first. Non-spoiler reviews. ah Crystal, what is your rating on this one? I, I'm conflicted too, honestly.
00:06:23
Speaker
But I overall, I think I've settled on three stinky burps. Okay. All right. I felt like, although I found the story really interesting, I found the way it was told really interesting. And the kind like the somewhat conflicting narratives of the two different, well, three different storytellers.
00:06:48
Speaker
It's... But sometimes the pacing was a little off for me. Sometimes I felt bored in places. Super excited and fascinated in some. Bored in others.
00:07:03
Speaker
You know, the characters were interesting and compelling. The story itself was interesting. I'm glad I read it. I think I really enjoyed the book. And I think it does have like a significant overall i don't want to say impact but like it it really does i think it's it's a good story but also it was just kind of a slog to get through for me yeah what about you lindsey so i gave this one four reanimations oh interesting i really enjoyed this story mm-hmm
00:07:47
Speaker
It was different than what I expected having watched the movie first. But I thought it was brilliant satire. And i liked the unreliable narrators. I thought they were fun. Yeah. i I really enjoyed this one unexpectedly.
00:08:02
Speaker
hu And you gave Princess... like We're comparing it to Princess Bride just because it has like a weird structure to it like Princess Bride. And you I think you gave Princess Bride a five. I did. Yeah, you really liked that structure.
00:08:16
Speaker
yeah Now that one was really funny. The Ritz's Bride really had the humor. This one lacks the humor, but the unreliable narrators, the way Bella contradicts or Victoria contradicts her husband.
Ethical Implications of Experiments
00:08:32
Speaker
okay That was just, that was comical. Yeah. yeah For me, ah hate to bring down the vibes, um but I gave it two and a half engagements for,
00:08:45
Speaker
For now. Hear me out. ah Okay? Hear me out. I feel like this is the type of book where I haven't talked to anybody about it, and I feel like I need to talk about how I feel.
00:09:00
Speaker
yeah and There's a lot to process here. Yes, exactly. I feel like I need to process it with some people to see how I feel about... the book as a whole, because right now I feel anger.
00:09:15
Speaker
i think because like, I struggled a lot with my reading because like Part of me was like, I feel like I need to rate this higher. But also, I feel like... I was still like i think I could go higher, too. Our friend um Reggie and Isaiah over at Movie Postmortem, they like revisit their ratings at the end of after they've discussed it.
00:09:34
Speaker
And i I think that's a really good idea because sometimes after we discuss stuff, I'm like, you know, now that I think about it, now that Lindsay pointed that out, or now that Carrie brought this to my attention, I love having you guys to talk this back and forth with because sometimes these...
00:09:49
Speaker
really do like there's stuff that you miss or there's stuff that didn't hit until you really have a chance to process it. So I think
Narrative Choices and Cinematography
00:09:56
Speaker
that's smart. Yeah, that's honestly exactly how I'm feeling right now because i hate the structure.
00:10:08
Speaker
I don't like... how this was put together. i found it so frustrating. I get the appeal. I totally get the appeal. It's just personally, and you want to know what i hated it in princess bride too. So it just aligns exactly how I just my personal taste, but I it felt like it was so distracting from the story because I love the story.
00:10:35
Speaker
i love Bella and I love Bella's story. But the unreliable narrators and the switch up at the end, like I wanted to physically throw the book.
00:10:46
Speaker
I wanted to throw it away. I was so upset and annoyed. But I want to talk through it with both of you, like as we discuss it to see, like understand why I'm annoyed.
00:11:00
Speaker
And maybe that makes it actually good and not bad. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That's why i was like, I don't know how I feel about this writing, but yeah, maybe I'll revisit it and maybe it'll change. So with that note, let's get into spoilers.
00:11:16
Speaker
So for the rest of this episode, you know the drill. We will be getting into the book and the movie, what worked, what didn't as it went to screen. And we're going to discuss Frankenstein connections along the way.
00:11:28
Speaker
But from here on out, it will be all spoilers. So I'm going to give a little bit of background of the movie. which is absolutely insane.
00:11:40
Speaker
An absolutely insane adaptation. This was directed by Yargos Lanthimus, hopefully I'm pronouncing that correctly, who actually has a great partnership ah with Emma Stone as they have several projects together, including The Favourite and ah the new release, Begonia, and this film.
00:12:02
Speaker
ah They are known to do some freaky collaborations. ah They work because they are winning awards, including four poor things, like Emma Stone winning Best Actress. at the Academy Awards for this.
00:12:16
Speaker
This is the first time I've seen a movie actually of that they've collabed together. Have you guys seen any of their movies? I know I really want to see Begonia. do too. I really want to see that one.
00:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. It's on my list. Yeah. As I said before, this movie received a ridiculous amount of nominations. become known as like genre defying.
00:12:38
Speaker
i think because of it being so dark and you get a lot and the genre defined, you get a lot of people being obsessed with it or people hating it.
00:12:51
Speaker
So I think
Character Portrayal and Complexity
00:12:52
Speaker
that's really fun. i actually kind of love when movies are like that, but overall it has like a good critical review of it.
00:13:02
Speaker
So I'm kind of going to go right into how the story begins. The book and the movie begin in similar ways. ah We're introduced McCandless or McCandles.
00:13:19
Speaker
In the movie, a medical student who forms a close friendship and professional partnership with the surgeon, Godwin Baxter. McCandless admires Godwin's brilliance and they connect intellectually.
00:13:37
Speaker
But when he visits Godwin's home, he meets Bella Baxter. who appears childlike despite being in an adult woman's body. um he initially assumes she has suffered brain damage from an accident, but Godwin reveals that she is actually the result of a scientific experiment where he claims to basically have created new life.
00:14:00
Speaker
Sound familiar? So basically what Bella's story is... Godwin explains that Bella had drowned herself while pregnant.
00:14:12
Speaker
Unfamiliar. Yes. That's what I was going to say. Sound familiar? Because a lot of people say that Bella's origin story is very similar to Percy's wife's story and how she had drowned herself when she was pregnant.
00:14:32
Speaker
um So Godwin... recovers Bella's body and revived her by transplanting the brain of her unborn fetus into her adult body.
00:14:44
Speaker
What was your guys' reaction to that? Like, that's insane to me. i didn't know I didn't know about this going in. Like, i knew...
00:14:56
Speaker
like the vibes were going to be strange going into the movie. so I didn't really know much about the book. I didn't know about, you know, Bella's origin story or anything. So reading that, my reaction was, i was a little shook. What about you, Lindsay? What where was was your reaction?
00:15:13
Speaker
I'm trying to remember my initial reactions from when I first watched the movie. And I have to say that I was probably,
00:15:22
Speaker
ah honestly, a little, creeped out at the thought of an infant's brain in a grown woman's body but then like you can't take it too seriously like it's satire obviously it's not realistic at all so like
Relationships and Dynamics
00:15:43
Speaker
i had to really not think about it too much yeah what about you crystal I mean, it just it was such a, in my mind, in your face commentary on science and, you know, the scientific community and, you know, the lengths we go, they go to. I'm not a scientist. Yeah. We as a society go to, for scientific discovery, sacrificing other life in order to advance, quote, advance scientific discovery. You know, they, like, in the story, Bella's fetus could have survived.
00:16:24
Speaker
It was still alive. Yeah. and And so like they like he kills that baby, you know, like he kills that baby, which is like all these, you know, the stem cell research that we do that does not kill it, that does not kill babies.
00:16:40
Speaker
But I mean, like it's at what point where do you draw the line? You know, and so this was like the big again, it's satire, but it was so kind of in your face of like,
00:16:51
Speaker
But it was science, so it's okay. Like, okay, I get what you're trying to say here, you know? Yeah, which, like, coming off of Frankenstein is, like, right the exact same thing that we see from Victor Frankenstein. It also just kind of freaked me out, like Lindsay said, like ah a child's mind in an adult woman's body. Like, i that was hard to not let go of through through the book, through the movie. I don't think, I i'd never let go of that because I just couldn't. I couldn't see past it.
00:17:21
Speaker
who Yeah. And in the book, whenever I'm going to say McCandles because that's so she calls him candles in the book anyways. So I'm going to say McCandles because they have different names in the book of the movie, but I'm going to stick with that one. um Reacts with in the book with horror and disgust when he first finds out about it.
00:17:46
Speaker
essentially like condemning Godwin's actions as like monstrous and immediately like distances himself, though he eventually returns and becomes involved again.
00:17:58
Speaker
In the film, however, he responds differently rather than rejecting Godwin. He like collaborates with him, ah carefully documenting Bella's development or speech reflexes, physical growth and behavior. Like he's involved basically in the quote experiment.
00:18:17
Speaker
um He is fully aware it and actively assists in recording and studying her progress. Bella rapidly
Differences in Endings
00:18:23
Speaker
matures, both intellectually and emotionally, and as her mind develops, she becomes increasingly curious about the world around her, particularly society, gender expectations, and her own sexuality. ah During this time, McCandles begins to fall in love with her which is like a little icky to me, I'm not going to lie Although Bella appears receptive to his feelings and she is like, yeah, we will get married. She ultimately chooses a different path. She leaves with a Duncan Wedderburn and embarks on a wild eye-opening journey. Through this adventure, she continues to discover herself while forming bold, independent ideas about society, women's roles, cultures, and politics.
00:19:15
Speaker
So overall thoughts, that's like a good introduction and kind of like overall what the story is. I'm curious, overall thoughts of the movie.
00:19:27
Speaker
What about you, Lindsay? Overall thoughts?
00:19:31
Speaker
i think the movie is visually stunning. I think the the actors do phenomenal things. I think it's obviously they can't go with a direct adaptation of this book because the multiple narrators, it's hard to interpret that to screen. So I think the direction that they took, I think it worked really well. And I, I like this movie.
00:19:59
Speaker
hmm. Okay. Crystal? um Pretty much the same. I enjoyed this. there I think the beginning when it first started, i was like, oh, I don't know if I'm going to like this.
00:20:12
Speaker
But I am so glad i I... Well, I had to watch it because I had to talk to you guys about it. but i'm like And honestly, I'll be honest, the first... 15-20 minutes I was just kind of like this is not hitting um and had it not been for the podcast I probably would have turned it off and watched something else but I'm glad I stuck it out because I really really enjoyed this it started a little weird and slow I mean the book is a little weird and slow in spots
00:20:43
Speaker
But it it it's so good. it moves so well. It progresses at a nice pace continuously through the whole thing. And Mark Ruffalo, that character whose name I just forgot, even though you said it. Duncan.
Moral Implications and Conclusion
00:21:01
Speaker
Duncan, yeah. he brought that character to life in a way that I didn't get in the book. like Honestly, if I could just take that character and put it in the book, because that made so much more sense to me.
00:21:19
Speaker
And I loved that. I loved That that storyline is the best. It's funny you said that. Mark Ruffalo was actually like super paranoid about his portrayal of this character. And he felt that he wasn't right for the part. of even Even so, Willem Dafoe played a joke on him where...
00:21:43
Speaker
He kept saying he thought Oscar Isaac would have been a better pick for that character. Oscar Isaac was filming another movie nearby on another set and Willem Dafoe brought him over and then brought Mark Ruffalo into the room and was like, sorry, you're being replaced with the Oscar Isaac. That's so mean. oh my gosh. I now was about to say that I thought Willem Dafoe was perfect too, but now I'm just, that was kind of, that was kind of a jerk move.
00:22:13
Speaker
I don't like that. Not to my Mark Ruffalo. Sorry, I'm a 13 going on 30 girl. Like that is one of my all time favorite movies. So Mark Ruffalo is like my big crush. Don't play practical jokes on my big crush. that's i guess Yeah, he I was watching so many interviews with him talking about this movie and He is almost like so insecure about this being in this movie and his role in it, thinking that he didn't do such a good job or like every every part that he was playing. He was always second guessing and everyone around him was like encouraging him and being like,
00:22:57
Speaker
Just do it. Just do it. You're doing great. And this was such like... His part as Duncan was such an incredible surprise. Like, he talks about... Like like I said, he thought he would be bad at it. And he didn't... like He didn't want to let Emma down or the director down. So he was really worried that he was going to be too associated with like his franchises that he does. And so he was trying to get out of that mindset because he's playing like a rake, basically. like This is a...
00:23:32
Speaker
a wild departure from his normal roles even in some of his more independent or or more um offbeat films this is this is different for him but I loved it yeah he is like kind of playing like an asshole and it is just such a cool thing to see him in that character like I can't help but to think about like a very specific scene we're gonna get into more scenes in a bit but a very specific scene that I'm thinking about is and everybody talks about is like their dance scene together yes
00:24:09
Speaker
Also, if you hear rain in the background, it is currently storming pretty loud right now. So if you hear that in the background, sorry about that. It's ambiance. Yeah, it's ambiance for Frankenstein vibes. There we go. can't help but think about that specific scene of them dancing. And he talks about how they did that like 60 times together. And I love that scene so much because it's like...
00:24:39
Speaker
you know, Bella becoming more free and like feeling the music and you just like can't help but just like just dance however you want. And you have like no control over your body. You just do how whatever you want. And it's like Duncan is like sitting there and he's like doesn't want to, you know, he there's like a specific way that everybody is dancing and he doesn't want to be you know, going over the top like that, it's like almost embarrassing to him. And then all of a sudden he just goes along with her and they talk about that scene and how losing that control was difficult for him.
00:25:20
Speaker
and then when he finally did that and how Emma Stone was like a good like way to like vibe off of with him. and they did had such good chemistry in doing that scene. I just like love that. Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker
And I just felt like those characters were just like so good. Like they just were so well done. Like to describe him, he's like this arrogant guy who's like trying to whisk away this like naive girl And to do like whatever he said to go along with. And in the moment, in that specific moment, Bella is becoming more free.
00:25:57
Speaker
and it's like that, how the way that she's dancing is her becoming more free. And it's like represented in her body and then her in her actions. it's It's so good.
00:26:09
Speaker
i just, his character was, I think, just as good as Bella. i loved it. But my overall thoughts of the movie, as much as I talk about how much I like specific moments, this one was really hard for me. like There's so much I love about it, but also like a lot that I hated about it.
00:26:31
Speaker
I will say that the whimsy of this story, like the steampunk vibes, I felt like it aligned with the book so well. Going in, I was like thinking back to like our Wuthering Heights experience. Oh.
00:26:43
Speaker
like flashbacks where it's like comically like in your face symbolism. Yeah. So I was like kind of worried about that going in, even though obviously like completely two different people directing and stuff. But just like that type of, you know,
00:26:58
Speaker
vibe, I guess, going into the movie. But it totally wasn't. it was like the artistry in it matched the story. it matched Bella's personality.
00:27:10
Speaker
Like, I like when it went from black and white to color. It was such a perfect moment. Yes. I almost thought I missed it. Because i I was waiting for it the whole time because I had seen previews in color. And so when it started in black and white, I knew, okay It's going to have to shift at some point or else i I'm watching the weird version, which could happen. But, you know, so I'm watching it and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and I'm waiting. And then it shifted to color so smoothly that I was like, wait, did that just happen or did I miss it a second ago? You know what i mean? Like, did I miss it?
00:27:47
Speaker
It was so smooth and so perfect in just the right moment. That it it felt natural. Right? Because we have that we see that happen in like The Wizard of Oz when we go black and white to color. And it's meant to be magical. It's meant to be over the top. Right? Because we're stepping into Oz.
00:28:09
Speaker
But this was more representing you know Bella's natural growth and transition into her world. who And so to have it transition so smoothly, so naturally, just... That was Chef's kiss moment for me.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah. i I love that moment. Also, like, the moments where it's, like, the fisheye lens. Yeah. ah When it just, like, moves the picture in into specific moments, it made sense where it feels almost, like, claustrophobic.
00:28:45
Speaker
And when the scene gets, like, a little more intense... I really, really liked that. I thought it was so beautiful. I think they said that it was shot like in a, like the entire thing was shot in a studio where like the background was like painted at some, in some parts.
00:29:06
Speaker
And i just like, that's so insane. I just, I thought it was so beautiful. The costumes, like you can tell when Bella, She is whenever she in the beginning, she has like more childlike costumes.
00:29:24
Speaker
And then later she's wearing like different colors, almost darker colors, where it kind of shows her like almost like, you know, developing and like becoming more adult like. hmm.
00:29:38
Speaker
And it's kind of represented in her costumes. I thought that was incredible. i i love that so much. But i I have complicated feelings about the movie.
00:29:53
Speaker
And like the entire structure of the story in both the book and the movie surrounds like women not being shameful whom for what they do and not being controlled for what they do. And I just... I have complicated feelings about it because I like that in the book and movie.
00:30:13
Speaker
We do see her, like, seeking agency sexually and without shame. And that's, you know, that's liberating. But I did find myself, like, walking away from the movie a little bit, like, with the ick, kind of.
00:30:34
Speaker
And... Like, i I saw, and i was like, I don't know why I feel like icky walking away from this. And I saw people, i like, I was watching looking at reviews, and people were saying, like,
00:30:49
Speaker
They thought that it was getting criticized because people said that it was made for, it felt like it was made for the male gaze rather than the female gaze and calling it, you know, a feminist version of Frankenstein or feminist interpretation of Frankenstein. But I don't think people also realize that like Emma Stone is a producer on this. Mm-hmm.
00:31:15
Speaker
Emma Stone has her hands in all of these scenes. She is very involved in every scene in the story that she is telling. Yeah, but was she trying to tell it to men or was she trying to tell it to women? That's what determines the gaze is who was her earned intended audience. Mm-hmm.
00:31:33
Speaker
you know And I can see that because there I agree with you. I kind of walked away with it with Ick. I loved it. Loved this movie. But there were definitely those that feel honestly a feeling of being like feeling gross.
00:31:50
Speaker
But I think that that goes to one of the themes, which in my mind is consent. Because here we have a child's mind in a woman's body.
00:32:03
Speaker
And yes, she wants to explore. And yes, she's interested in in and excited about her body and the world around her. But is this a child or is this a woman?
00:32:17
Speaker
And what people do to her, is she fully capable of consent, giving an informed consent to the things that are happening? that That is honestly that gave me ick through the whole movie.
00:32:31
Speaker
It gave me ick through the book. Because this is. i i think that's personally why I had the ick with this. That's why I was grossed out by this. yeah I don't necessarily think that it was you know a male gaze or a female gaze that did it for me.
00:32:47
Speaker
This was what did it for me. Was that still a child in my mind? Yeah. i Yeah, I honestly, i think there were just like, just like a lot of the scenes in it just didn't hit as well for me. They got really dark.
00:33:12
Speaker
Specifically when it got to, for me, my what I interpreted when it got to like the brothel scenes, ah there were like specific scenes in there that really, i was like, what are we doing? like they It kind of like upset me, a walking away, like things that had to do with like children and stuff in those scenes. Mm-hmm.
00:33:38
Speaker
And like doing things in front of children. So i i don't know. I didn't walk away with like a fully satisfied feeling like that I was hoping for for this film.
00:33:53
Speaker
But then i was like, I keep like trying to think about it and wondering if it's like challenging me. Does that mean it's good? you know, because it is challenging me.
00:34:04
Speaker
i don't know. i don't know. But i still like I feel like I still have to process it for sure. But to get more thunder in the background, I don't know if you can still hear it, but I feel like every time i I drop a comment, thunder is going. That's a wild thunder. Yeah. Is it really loud?
00:34:26
Speaker
i can hear It's rumbling. Okay. But getting into more of the cast... ah We have Rami Youssef as Max McCandless in the book. He has a much more important role in the book.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah. ah As we said before, the book, most of it is written in his perspective, like because he's right, quote, writing the book.
00:34:59
Speaker
This is his fictional memoir. But I think he kind of represents the character pretty well. He's like very... He doesn't have like a super strong personality, in my opinion. And like his relationship with Bella seems to be somewhat the same on screen. What do you both think?
00:35:23
Speaker
What about you? yeah and see Yeah. I definitely agree. Yeah. um And then we have Godwin Baxter. Played by Willem Dafoe.
00:35:35
Speaker
What do we think about? i love that they named him Godwin. ah Yeah. You know, a nod to Mary Godwin Shelley there. love that.
00:35:47
Speaker
You see a couple nods to the original Frankenstein throughout the book. And I really liked that. But I think Willem Dafoe did amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:58
Speaker
The biggest difference between Godwin in the book and Godwin in the movie is Godwin in the book is basically the same age as McCandles.
00:36:09
Speaker
And Godwin in the movie is more of a father figure. He's much older. yeah I don't know if that affected McCandles' relationship with him, where Carrie, you were talking about earlier, where he's just more willing to help with Bella.
00:36:24
Speaker
yeah um I don't know if that was why, but I thought that was interesting. Yeah, because I think in the book they are like almost like in class together. Yeah, they're both students. yeah Yeah. And in the movie, Godwin is like teaching.
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah. So there's definitely a different power dynamic. In the book, too, McCandless... Like instantly falls for Bella is instantly just enthralled with her. Like he's just enchanted.
00:37:00
Speaker
And Godwin kind of is like, you know, oh, that's cute. you know, we're gonna, we'll see a around by. Like he's almost protective of Bella in that, like it kind of answers the question that we had during our first Frankenstein episode of could somebody do this responsibly? and I think Godwin genuinely wanted to do this responsibly. He's caring for his creature. He's taking, you know, making sure that his creature is educated and healthy and strong and monitoring the, creature you know what i mean? So like you see that a little bit more, I think in the book than you do in the movie and the movie, this is purely science. He's purely measured. He wants to measure things and and he doesn't like the idea that he's become emotionally attached.
00:37:49
Speaker
Whereas in the book, I think that was kind of it all along was i i was lonely. So I created someone and now I want to care for her. Yeah. Yeah. He, this does feel also like an like in Frankenstein where it's an example of like unchecked power and experiencing the consequences of it. And, you know, it's been about a week since I finished reading the book, but I,
00:38:19
Speaker
I didn't Godwin say, Godwin Baxter say at one point in the book that like, I made a mistake. I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have created her, but she's here and now I'll take care of it.
00:38:34
Speaker
I think so. That familiar. shouldn't have destroyed the life of the baby. He could have just raised the baby. Yeah. it's Oh, yeah. It's been about two weeks since I read the book. Right. think I actually had that marked where McCandles brings that up where he's like, you know couldn't you have saved...
00:39:00
Speaker
Could you not have saved the child? And Godwin reacts. He said, of course I saved it. The thinking part of it. Did I not explain that? Why should I seek elsewhere for a compatible brain when her body already housed one?
00:39:14
Speaker
Right. And then like a year later or whatever, he had said something like, I was selfish. I should have just saved the baby. Mm-hmm. And I really liked that because he took responsibility where Victor Frankenstein never took responsibility for it. Yeah. He never apologized for it. He never said, this is all my fault. He never, you know, like I, none of that. Whereas, you know, Godwin Baxter's over here saying, you called me on it before. And after reflection, you were right. I was selfish and I shouldn't, I should have just raised the, I could have just raised the baby. I should have just raised the baby. And i he he said that like his selfishness got in the way or his selfish something. And I was like, there's there is a self-realized man. Thank you. i appreciate that. One in all these books we've read. One.
00:40:04
Speaker
Also, I think it's... so ironic and so good in the book and in the movie that Bella calls him God. Like, shortens his name from Godwin to God because he is her creator. He is playing the role of God to her, basically. And I think that's so good.
00:40:27
Speaker
And I love how it kind of confuses the people around her when she does that. Yeah. I just found that really enjoyable. Mm-hmm. Like God said this or like, you know, that's what God wants me to do.
00:40:40
Speaker
She's talking about her father or her quote creator. um And now we have Emma Stone as Bella Baxter, similar to the creature in Frankenstein, kind of the same concept where Bella is, you know, seeking some type of agency over herself, her mind, her body,
00:41:05
Speaker
I think Emma did an incredible job as Bella. She is an insane actress. What do you think, Lindsay? the Her lines, the way she was speaking, it was perfect.
00:41:20
Speaker
It was a perfect portrayal. i loved it. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Crystal? Oh, yeah. I mean, from start to finish, you know... From like young young Bella, quote unquote young Bella, and her stuttered speech and her talking, you know, short syllables.
00:41:41
Speaker
And then slowly getting better throughout the movie as she's experiencing and then just a fully actualized experience. thinking, speaking, clearly adult. like And she did each one of those growths, each little tiny change so beautifully. Emma Stone is magic in this role. She's just perfect.
00:42:03
Speaker
Yeah, the way she was able to develop the speech throughout the film, it's like only in the last half of the movie does she actually use pronouns to address people rather than using their full name.
00:42:18
Speaker
So, yeah. She was perfect. And even in the way she moved, you know just... Wow. Yeah. I, like, even though I said earlier, like, I kind of felt, like, icky sometimes when watching, like, specific scenes, I get conflicted, like I was saying before, because...
00:42:37
Speaker
Like, I do feel when you watch it, like, you can almost sense the main actress, you know, Emma Stone, almost coming through as free and comfortable.
00:42:49
Speaker
Like, I feel like you can genuinely sense that in this film. Like, that she is incredibly comfortable in this role and she knows what the heck that she, what she's doing. Mm-hmm.
00:43:01
Speaker
And I think that's really good. Some other scenes, moving on to scenes, some that stood out, good or bad. So the artistry, like we said before, or like I said before, um incredible, amazing. Even like the animals everywhere in the movie were with Godwin to kind of represent like what he does.
00:43:29
Speaker
The pig chicken. Yeah. Like the pig chicken. Just love Yeah. Mixture of animals was absolutely insane. I know we talked already talked about Duncan and Bella a ton, but I'm going to talk and about talk about it again because I like so much that she is basically experiencing like a toxic relationship with And what is it like to experience a toxic relationship in Bella's perspective where she did not, she kind of like doesn't feel shame, guilt, you know, all of these feelings inside. She's just kind of doing whatever she wants. Yeah.
00:44:16
Speaker
At least it felt that way to me. It's like he loved, Duncan took her away because he loved that she was naive and she wanted to go on like an adventure. So like they were the perfect pair, at least to him. And, you know, he went away and she, he loved that she didn't know what was going on.
00:44:39
Speaker
And he was like obsessed with that. And the second that she started challenging him, He hated it. He hates the challenge to his ego um to the point that the switch up was like, he's like, don't fall in love with me. And then he was like, well, you know, I love you Please, you know, be with me and all this stuff. And she's just like, well, I'm sleeping with this person. I'm sleeping this morning. Like, what's the problem? Like, I'm doing whatever I want.
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah, he hated the challenge. And then, so and so he pushed back to make her submit. And when she didn't, he hated the rejection. And kept coming back for more. Yeah, and she just, like, starts to get over him and completely, like, annoyed with him. And it's, like, it's interesting because we actually see, I think it's on page, like, 36. Yeah.
00:45:32
Speaker
of the book where when McCandles, like, he originally starts challenging Godwin about, you know, the fact that he created Bella and did this to her by putting, like, a newborn baby's brain into her head.
00:45:51
Speaker
And i think this is like a little bit of foreshadowing of what Duncan, why Duncan wanted her so badly. you he says he says to Godwin, he says, you think you are about to possess what men have hopelessly yearned for throughout the ages, the soul of an innocent, trusting, dependent child inside the opulent body of a radiantly lovely woman, which is exactly what Duncan wanted.
00:46:15
Speaker
And then the second she was like, her brain is developing into something that's challenging and talking back or like where she's just like, I'm not going to do whatever you're saying. going do whatever I want.
00:46:29
Speaker
He is like... either over it and doesn't want anything to do with it, calling her the devil and, you know, or just like screaming at her to come back to him.
00:46:43
Speaker
It's like, she's experiencing the toxic relationship without, with, with being just kind of like, okay. And, you know, it's so good. Like, it's just so good. Yeah.
00:46:56
Speaker
What are some of the scenes that stood out to you guys? I mean, i Honestly, the end. Like, the very, very, very last scene is so perfect. Are you talking about the movie?
00:47:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so perfect. it It's... I didn't fully expect it I'm not mad about it.
00:47:26
Speaker
i do... I don't understand why in the movie they made a second
00:47:33
Speaker
person though. What the heck was the other other girl's name? I can't remember. Felicity or something like that. was that So Godwin made another person like Bella. And he was basically I think he was doing it because he wanted to like. He was he was like Bella's gone. Let's make another one. Yeah, but he wanted to make it better. Yeah.
00:47:55
Speaker
And without the emotional attachment too. Yeah.
00:48:01
Speaker
And that's not ah that's not in the book. No. I didn't like that, honestly. i feel like that didn't really add anything to the movie. Yeah. like you didn't It didn't add anything to the story. Like, if you took that out...
00:48:18
Speaker
It wouldn't change the story. Yeah. In the end with General Blessington, when he comes in um and he's like saying like, that's my wife talking about Bella because Bella in her previous life before she...
00:48:36
Speaker
had died was Victoria Blessington. And he's like, that's my wife. Like she's should be coming with me in the book. It kind of like ends differently. They like settle things out. It's a little dramatic, but it doesn't happen how it does in the movie where Bella's kind of like, okay, I'll go with him.
00:48:59
Speaker
And she goes to his place to figure out what the heck is going on But I think it's funny that McCandle's just of just like, yeah, go with the flow. Like he's kind of upset, but he's just like giving her the decision decide or gives her the place to decide what to do instead of telling her what to do. So she's just like, yeah, I'm going to go and figure this out and leaves with this guy claiming to be her husband. and then we get some like really fucked up stuff happening where he's claiming
00:49:32
Speaker
To like cut some piece of her body that I'm not going to say. And to get her pregnant. And she shoots him in the foot.
00:49:43
Speaker
and then the pulls a Godwin Baxter. And replaces his brain with a goat brain. In the movie. So perfect.
00:49:57
Speaker
And so he is... on like in their on their property like in their garden or whatever yeah in their garden munching away on some leaves yeah bleeding that was a pretty satisfying ending in the movie that was pretty funny are there any scenes that stood out to you lindsey Honestly, there were a few, especially like on the boat. There were quite a few scenes on the boat when he, when Duncan threatens Bella's new friend, he's going to throw her overboard. She was like, oh goody. What the heck was her name? Martha? Marsha? Oh.
00:50:35
Speaker
It was Martha. martla I loved that character much. She was so funny. One of my favorite scenes with Martha too was when Duncan it takes her book and throws it takes Bella's book and throws it. And Martha like looks at him like she doesn't give a fuck and just hands Bella a new book. And she's like, okay,
00:50:58
Speaker
What about It was so perfect. Yep. So good. There's also a scene toward the end when Bella and McCandles are getting married and Blessington barges in with Duncan. And at this point, Baxter is sick. he's He's got cancer and he's like coughing up blood. And Duncan was like, see, he's not human. He's coughing up blood. And McCandles like, he has cancer. And he was like,
00:51:27
Speaker
Yeah. Don't like, I can't get over how good Duncan is. I could talk about that all day. ah Seriously. So, so good. i love it.
00:51:38
Speaker
But we also have, like I said, completely different endings. Movie. Bella is living her best life with the general having a goat brain and make big candles. And the woman she met at the brothel living all together I like that that that woman was there with her. That was cool. I did too. Yeah. And in the book, let's talk about the book ending. Okay. so remember when we said how it was the structure of the book? Yeah. Basically we have a bunch of unreliable narrators. Okay. McCandle lists, whatever the heck it is. can't, struggling so bad with that name. In his fake memoir.
00:52:24
Speaker
So then a memoir. Then we have. how So we finished that in the book. Then we have a letter in the back from Bella basically saying this is all fake. This is all not real. that All the stuff you just read.
00:52:40
Speaker
This is not real. She's like I don't know what he was talking about. Yeah. i don't know what he was talking about. here He's on drugs. Not sure. I don't know. This is all fake. Signed, love Victoria. Okay. Then we have like a bunch of like historical notes by our fake editor, who's actually the real author. Then at the very end of the book, very last page of the book, it we have like basically like a note about Victoria, AKA Bella, Dr. Victoria McCandless.
00:53:22
Speaker
And basically saying like how that she died. And saying that she was exactly.
00:53:34
Speaker
wait from the birth of her brain, she was exactly 66 years, 40 weeks in four days old reckoning from the birth of her body. she was 92. So we're like, so were like So what does this mean?
00:53:51
Speaker
What does this mean? Is it... at Was, you know, McCandle's telling the truth. Was Victoria actually, like, lying when she said this was all a lie? so That's not represented in the movie, obviously, because I can't imagine how you would do that. But in the book, it's like the structure is frustrating where it's like, okay, this is what really happened.
00:54:16
Speaker
But this is what actually happened. Okay, actually, all the things that you just said that we said didn't happen may have actually happened. So that's kind of the structure of it, and it which is wild.
00:54:29
Speaker
And i don't know I feel about it. That's the part I loved. yeah Yeah. Yeah. That's the part you guys loved, which is crazy. That's so funny. All right. Final verdicts of the book and the movie.
00:54:44
Speaker
Crystal. Book. Lindsay. I'm going to go book two. Oh my gosh. I'm going movie.
00:54:57
Speaker
I mean, obviously. After that, can only tolerate one narrator. Yeah, I don't mind the different narrators. It was just like, immediately I knew we were going downhill. I read i actually messaged Lindsay because I was like, I'm so confused. Help me. i don't understand. understand.
00:55:19
Speaker
who who's talking to me right now because there is an introduction that's like uh this is like the book that was found by this author and alistair gray is it the editor and i was like wait what is going on right now so i mean but that's just an ode to to frankenstein you know and honestly a lot of books from the the romance era is you know we have the The narrator telling the tale that somebody else told to them.
00:55:53
Speaker
You know. And then potentially other people told bits and pieces. And then we get the monster side of the story or whatever. Like it's. The creature even got to tell a little bit of his story.
00:56:05
Speaker
the end of Frankenstein. So why wouldn't Bella Victoria get her chance to say her part? hu That's true. Yeah you have you have the male perspective where you have.
00:56:16
Speaker
the male narrator controlling the woman's story. And then at the end, the woman comes in It was like, these guys are full of shit.
00:56:27
Speaker
Yeah. Which I get. I get it, girl. I get it. But then you have the ending where it's like, well, actually she really. what Fake news.
00:56:39
Speaker
Fake news. Fake news. Fake news. The editor is a liar. Another man. Another man, exactly. True, true. And honestly, now, Crystal, that you say that about, it kind of follows a similar structure to Frankenstein because it's like,
00:56:58
Speaker
the Because Victor is telling... i I always forget that guy's name. that want to say Arthur. Robert Walton. There you go thank Arthur, Robert, somebody. He's talking to that guy on the boat.
00:57:15
Speaker
And telling him his perspective. And then, you know, the creature comes in. But he's writing it down and sending those letters to his sister. These are letters to his sister. So it's like I it does have that a weird like structure like that. I get that.
00:57:30
Speaker
That makes sense. But to get into our question of the episode, which I'm very interested to hear this answer. Who is the greater moral offender, Godwin Baxter or Victor Frankenstein? And what makes them worse from your view? Lindsay, I want you to go first.
00:57:54
Speaker
Okay. So Victor's crime is not simply creating life.
00:58:04
Speaker
But his crime is refusing to care for it once it exists. So he repeatedly chooses his pride, fear, and self-preservation over his accountability.
00:58:20
Speaker
Godwin Baxter's morality is complicated. because his experiments raise issues of bodily autonomy autonomy, like you've said throughout the episode, but it's also consent, like crystal said, and he actually doesn't reject his creation. Once it exists, he doesn't abandon Bella. He allows her to develop and ultimately supports her development and her independence and her education.
00:58:53
Speaker
So I'm going with Victor. All right. What Lindsay said. what Exactly what Lindsay said. Yeah. Exactly what Lindsay said. going to have to agree with that. Absolutely.
00:59:06
Speaker
Totally agree with that. A hundred percent. I mean, he even went so far as to make sure in his will that she got the estate that they had. Like she was taken care of for the rest of her life.
00:59:18
Speaker
And Godwin Baxter was not going to let what he brought into this world just mess everything up for everybody else or suffer or, you know, it was his responsibility and he took it. And yeah, sorry.
00:59:32
Speaker
Victor still sucks. We are still the Victor Frankenstein haters. Absolutely. The hating podcast. All right. So on that note, that's a wrap on today's episode and our month of madness. The month of madness is over. If you enjoyed the episode or wish to share your thoughts on this book adaptation, please let us know in the comments where you are listening or feel free to reach out to us on the socials
01:00:04
Speaker
linked in the description below. Also, if you find yourself with more adaptation ideas you want to see us cover, leave them in our adaptation submission form linked as well. All recommendations are welcomed. And if you're interested in listening to the audiobook, check out our affiliate link with Libro FM so you can support your local bookstore while listening to a title with us. I actually enjoyed the audiobook. I switched between the physical and audio. was pretty good.
01:00:30
Speaker
ah But thanks for listening and make sure to experience everything. We can't wait to see you in the next chapter of Based on a Book.