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A Feast For The Senses ft Tina Panoutsos
424 Plays7 days ago
“I really get a buzz out of looking at flavours and the way things interact with each other.”
If you’re a consumer of beer, rather than someone working in the industry, there’s a fair chance you won’t have heard of this week’s trailblazing guest. After all, Tina Panoutsos doesn’t own a brewery, brew beer, pour beer, sell beer, or run a festival. However, over more than 35 years in beer, she’s become one of the key figures in the Australian industry and an inspiration to many.
We caught up with Tina at Melbourne Showgrounds ahead of this year’s Australian International Beer Awards judging, where she’s once again taking a lead role – as she has at countless beer competitions both here and across the planet – to look back over an extraordinary career.
Since joining CUB in 1989 – “a short little Greek girl”, as she puts it, with a chemistry degree and post-grad in teaching – Tina has transformed the world of sensory analysis, smashed through glass ceilings, and helped make the beer world an increasingly diverse space.
Over the course of our chat, we dive deep into the worlds of sensory and beer judging, discuss cellar palates, super tasters and standout beers, learn how small breweries can set up their own sensory programs on a tiny budget, and explore ways in which beer can reach new audiences.
There was plenty to discuss in the intro too: the results of the 2026 Perth Royal Food Awards – Beer; what One Drop’s OG brewer Nick is doing in Singapore; new owners with a new vision for one of Australia’s first craft breweries; a funding boost for Victoria’s indie brewers; ten years of one of the country’s most colourful craft beer pubs; and our second Pints of Origin preview.
Start of segments:- 0:00 – The Week On Crafty
- 12:18 – CoConspirators & 10 Toes on their #PoO26 collab
- 17:06 – Tina Panoutsos Part 1
- 42:19 – Tina Panoutsos Part 2
To find out more about featuring on The Crafty Pint Podcast or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.
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Transcript
Australian Beer Events Overview
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Crafty Pint Podcast. I'm Will. I'm James and here on the cusp of a pretty big time in beer for us, well for the whole industry I guess. We're about to enter, not really Mad May, but certainly the the period of the beer calendar that's become arguably the busiest in Australia over the last 15 16 years, Will. Yeah, definitely. It would be great to catch up with a lot of people during the Abers, Bintani Trade Day as well, which is the day before that, and then Pine of Origin as well, all rolls into that. So I'm sure there'll be a lot of people in Melbourne. So it'll be great to see some old, familiar faces. Yes, and talking Abers, the Australian International Beer Awards, we had a chat with a guest on, was it Tuesday this week, Monday this week, from the States, who was like, now is it Abers? Is it AIBA? don't know how to pronounce it. So we're going to go with Abers, I think, aren't we? Yeah, the yeah the more you can abbreviate things, the better. One day it will just be the Abe's. The Abe's. Zebes at the Abe's. Anyway, back to the ah the task at hand this week. um where I guess we'll you know we'll get get to our main guest who is very much Abe's related. um But first up, I guess another awards, we're very much into awards season. We had a discussion about the World Beer Cup and Two
Perth Royal Food Awards Recap
00:01:12
Speaker
Bay's latest triumph. Was that last week or the week before? i don't know. It all sort of, all gets a little bit ah hectic. But last Friday night in WA, they had the Perth Royal Food Awards beer and presentation. used to to the Perth Royal Beer Awards now. And you can't only sort of shorten that one. perpher prefab Prefab. We'll work on it. Prefab. There you go. um Where there was another major, well, several trophies, but the major beer trophy for King Road again, who don't seem to be to go to an awards competition without walking away with silverware and quite commonly for their pale ale as well.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah, um it's great to see a trophy like that go to their pale ale. They are under Steve Wirin, who's the head brewer. like They make such finesse, sort of balanced beers and and core range beers. like ah Every time I've had a King Road beer, it's always like just they're just so perfectly executed. So I'm not surprised that beer like that would be the thing that would really stand out, and I'm i'm sure what was. There's well, Rocky Ridge entered, so I'm sure, and campus as well. So I'm sure there were some quite ah different beers in there as well. But yeah. yeah Oh yeah. it was It was good to see like, you know, yeah obviously it's a pretty, uh, WA dominated awards over there. Um, I think I worked out, was it 10 of maybe the 20 trophies went to breweries in the sort wider Southwest region as well, which shows how strong it is down there. um But yeah, Rocky Ridge picked up yet another champion large brewery um title. Campus picked up the medium brewery title. Lucky Bay and Esperance, they always seem to pick up trophies as well. Small brewery and also a shout out for Ripple Brewing. We did a piece on them a few weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago that really, maybe even longer than that, that really sort of went off on socials. that That's Joel Nash, who's been around the WA brewing scene for a long while. um Just a brew pub operations, at least for now. um But people have been raving about his beers, so to see them. get a bit of um recognition there. So, um yeah, we'll include the article with a link to all the all the winners um in the show notes. um And talking of, I guess, sort of, you know, much admired and, I guess... Chaotic brewers. Chaotic, eccentric beers. You had a chat to someone who's been ho been behind one of the great stories of um Australian craft beer and over the last sort of few years.
Nick Colter-Skolls' Move to Singapore
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, Nick Colter-Skolls from One Drop Brewing. ah he's He's made the move from Botany to Singapore to head up People People, which is a new operation. Hopefully you won't mind me saying, but some people in the industry might have seen he did send an email out a couple of months ago saying he was moving on um from One Drop, and he said he was going to be at a more traditionally focused brewery. And I was kind of like, well, that's kind of could be any brewery in the world, couldn't it? I mean, it's not hard to find a brewery. more traditional than one drop. But yeah, it's ah it was a good catch up with him. you know, he was he spoke a lot and openly about how he was sort of like, oh, well, not getting any younger. Do I want to remain in a small brewery on on the manual work and those kind of things?
00:04:03
Speaker
Talked to some friends who had sort of left day to day brewing operations, gone into supply side or consultancy. And then this message came along, the founder of People People, Dave, he's an Aussie chef. So there was a natural connection there, despite Nick being a Kiwi. He's been here long enough that we can claim him. And yeah, it's an interesting operation. I'm but very sad because I'm heading off to my honeymoon in Italy and I was really hoping to fly through Singapore and have a stop over there. And this was before I knew anything about what Nick was up to. It's probably worked out for the best because I think I would have had to have gone Singapore and then the Middle East. So i probably... Or maybe missed your flight. Yeah, that's right. If you got stuck into Nick's beers. um yeah know Best luck to um Nick. um and yeah Maybe we can try and temp tempt them to send some beer beers over for Pint of Origin in 2027. And I guess another um story we've been working on this week that I guess there's been plenty of interest in, um i guess the brewery they're connected to, I guess they were making some pretty out there beers, you know, 30 odd years ago when they started out, but in a very different out there beers to what Nick was maybe doing with
Revival of Grand Ridge Brewery
00:05:09
Speaker
his smoothie sours. But yeah, so Grand Ridge Brewery went into liquidation a couple of years ago. I think they'd been sort of you know in trouble for a bit bit of time before that. A very iconic brewery um in Victoria. One of the very first. I think even Dave from Mountain Goat started brewing Mountain Goat beers there before they had their venue. um Some sort of you know iconic beers like the Super Shine and Moonshine Barley Wines. um But yeah, it looks like there's a a fresh very fresh lease on life there. Yeah, definitely. It was great to catch up. So they're calling themselves the Grand Ridd Project. They haven't locked in a name yet. I spoke to Kelly McCarthy, so it's her and her husband Andy. I actually actually grew up in Langatha, which is a town over from Mooboo North. So like I, you you know, my school band played in the function room at Grand Ridge. So I know the place pretty well. was great to catch up. but We yeah have a lot of mutual connections and unsurprisingly being from two, two small country towns and yeah, they're really excited for it. They come from a small business background that they ran Gippsland Solar, which was um a massive employer when uh, over the last decade or they've sold that off and, um, now they're sort of, I think looking for their next challenge. So, and it is a big challenge because the place was liquidated over a slow period. They had, um, the brewery had leased out the venue and bar side of the business. So that was actually still operating until last year. Yeah. The bar looks still, it's very familiar yeah from my first visit probably 15, 16 years ago, but, um, yeah, the, ah the rest of it looks very much like a, just an empty warehouse shell. Yeah, definitely. And, um, you know, probably a large part of Grand Ridge issues where they couldn't really adapt to the, I think modern beer scene and it was an oversized brewery as well. Uh, Kelly and Andy want it to be more of a brew pub, a destination place. Um, you know, drawing on some of the great breweries in the area, like lock. a brewery nearby or Borough Brewery. Goodland is just further down the road and obviously Sailor's Grave in East Gippsland, which is a fair hike, but ah ah ketley Kelly yeah knows those guys well too. So yeah, I'm i'm really excited to see what they do and what happens next. Do they give you any sort of timeline on the project or is it a bit sort of how long a piece is a piece of string? They want the bar side of things to be open this year is sort of best thing. And then the brewery knows, but they have. Don't go herring out there now going, i want to revisit this place. I have so many fond memories attached to just yeah hold your horses. Definitely. um They do have some approvals or like preexisting approvals, which might make things a bit quicker, but they've still got to get other ones for some of the stuff. they want to do but Mubu North is a small town but without the brewery you know it only has one pub most towns in the area two pub towns so Grand Ridge really played a pivotal role there and that being shut has really been missed by the area as well having ah a place that didn't have pokies and those kind of things
00:07:49
Speaker
yeah no we best of best of love best of luck to kelly and andy um and i guess sticking in victoria now this is um something i don't know a huge amount about just yet uh but after we finish this uh recording the intro to this week's podcast and we'll be chatting to evan craney who's um from bright brewery but also currently the the chair of the independent brewers association he's also been working with the victorian drinks alliance to try and get some funding out of the Victorian state government to support local producers and called me yesterday to say that, well it'll be a couple of days ago by time this goes out, to say that there risk has has been some money and earmarked in the twenty twenty six twenty twenty seven Victorian budget um which is to support um Victorian producers and it's mentioned specifically um Craft
Victorian Government Funding for Craft Beer
00:08:39
Speaker
Beal. All I can say, the one line at the minute which I'll have you know embellished upon for a story by the time this podcast goes out, is that funding is also provided to continue the Drink Victoria program, driving growth in local production through education and marketing and to support the development of Victorian craft beer and cider strategy. So that will bring it into line with um the other parts of the country that have had existing craft beer strategies or support for the craft beer industry um for a period of time. like It's kind of odd that Victoria hasn't had that. I remember when I was first to get putting the ideas for the Crafty Pint together, I'd go and present or chat to the tea the people that were VAMI, the Victorian Association of Microbreweries, i think it was Incorporated, to give you the I for VAMI.
00:09:18
Speaker
And they were working with the government there. They got you know a few thousand dollars out of the regional development grant to put these little booklets together. um So you know there's that they were sort of trying to I guess, get support from our government back then. it seems odd that then we had good beer week. and and In some ways, I think the Victorian craft beer scene was the one that really pushed hardest and sort of furthest earliest. So it has been a bit of an anomaly that there hasn't been this support there from the state government. But um yeah, it looks like that's going to be happening. um I think it's come a bit earlier than Evan was perhaps expecting. So anyway, we'll know much more by the time this ah podcast goes out.
00:09:53
Speaker
Yeah, so look out for that on the site, and you'll also find a story I've just done with Miff Smith from Freddie Wimples. Freddie Wimples is awesome craft beer pub in St Kilda. It's inside the George Hotel, which is ah this massive old building, sort of looks out onto the foreshore. It's part of the Ganley Group, which is a really an exciting hospitality group. They also have Fifth Province, which is an Irish pub just across the road. It's run by Liam Ganley, who himself is Irish, and they've got a steakhouse. they They've taken over some other pubs as well, and really, they have a great ability of, I think, respecting the character, and Freddie Wimples was an early mayor of St Kilda, ah and he also was one of the early directors of a small little cooperative brewery in Abbotsford, which one day... became Carlton United Brewery. So Miff describes it as their love letter to St Kilda and also to local beer. They don't have Carlton on tap anymore because it's not a local beer. But yeah, it was great to catch up with her. The the the pub's celebrating 10 years this year. She basically went in as a regular, kept drinking beer there. And about six months after they opened, after they opened she joined the team and she's been running the show forever. for ah um some years now too. So yeah, it's it's a really awesome pub. If you haven't been, I i feel bad for you. You got to check it out. Every time I go down there, I'm like, I wish I could just hang out in this place every afternoon. Well, it's interesting. There's not like, you wouldn't think of St Kilda and the area around there as the like,
00:11:18
Speaker
being a craft beer sort of hotspot like north of the river but it has got some really great ven venues down obviously you know the local tap house is iconic and trailblazing um but you know there's freddie wind poles obviously you know fifth province mixes you know our stuff and a bit of mainstream stuff with a bit of craft but there's other the the pubs that are down there or the bars that are down there doing it do do it very well um and i guess it's worth mentioning as well that freddie wind poles will be back as a pint of origin venue again this year representing south of the yarrow they always do a great job down there um sell a ton of beer, do some cool events, which you can read about on pintoforigin.com, which sort of leads nicely into you did the second of our sort of Pints of Origin mini preview series, looking at some of the beers that are exciting people most on each of the 2026 crawls.
00:12:06
Speaker
Yes, not Southside. I caught up with one of the Brunswick venues, Co-Conspirators. I chatted to Dion Smith, head brewer there, and Rupert Hall from Tento's. They've done a collaboration and let's hear from them now.
00:12:19
Speaker
Rupert from Tento's, Dion from Co-Conspirators. Thank you so much for joining me. Great to be here, Will. Thanks, Will. Thanks for having us. So tell us about this beer the two of you have been working on for Pint of Origin, the Sunseeker. What is it?
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, so this is this is a collaboration beer that we sort of worked on for for a few few months, it feels like, before we got the recipe sort of squared away. um it's a yeah It's a big dessert sour with plenty of raspberry, passion fruits and banana in there.
00:12:54
Speaker
um It's got some sabro hops. It's a big pastry sour. I think it's been quite interesting how we've arrived at a fairly... Well, for us anyway, the the recipe is fairly much the way we would have sort of gone about as well, which is great. Sort of that like of mine. But, mate, raspberries. Raspberries are great. It's something we haven't used in this hour for a long time.
00:13:15
Speaker
I've been getting that lactose right up there, so it really does get that dessert character. It's pretty exciting. and pretty pretty yeah judicious use of Sabro, but I think that'll bring a lovely tropical coconut note. So then I think it certainly depicts what Tento's does and I'm not sure how you guys go when you're normal sows.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's, ah it's, know, get, stepping through the process. There was a lot of feedback, a lot of ideas, and it took a while. And, you know, the overall concepts were sort of pushed in one way and then another way. And I think we sort of stuck with the, with the WeSpark concept and, um,
00:13:54
Speaker
you sent through a recipe fairly early on, which is fairly similar to what what I would have done. So I think the the recipe itself probably is way both of us would have written written it. So it actually worked out quite quite easy.
00:14:08
Speaker
Wonderful. And when can people enjoy it? so So the beer is being released the 15th of May. So the very start of the Pine of Origin and then wholesale shortly after that.
00:14:22
Speaker
Thank you, Will, Rupert and Dion and James onto this week's guest. That's the first time I think any of us have referred to us in ourselves in the third person will long may it continue. Yes, the main guest as we sort of I guess hinted at at the top of this chat is very much tied to the Abers, the Abes, and guess judging all over the world, but also sensory, I guess, probably regards the country's leading sort of sensory guru, Tina Panoutsis. She started out at CUB very end of the 80s and has been there ever since. Now, I guess, now Asahi Beverages went in, in her words, it was a bit, it was, I guess a different era for beer, even more male dominated. In her, which went into the industry as a short little Greek girl with a sort of chemistry degree and a post-grad in teaching and loved it and set about, I think, sort of changing the way that that whole business operates in the way they assess and analyze and test and did their sort of sensory evaluation of beer. Uh, wrote an entire program. Yeah. And has anyone who's ever met Tany will know she's just this incredibly down to earth person. love the way she talks about beer and, uh, we get into it towards the end as she talks about, you know, the need to be more beer moments out there and how we need to talk about beer better and those of things. It's a really good chat. Um, I hope you enjoy it. If you do make sure you like subscribe, leave us a review on the podcast platform in which you listen to us because it helps other people discover the platform. And tell your mates.
00:15:55
Speaker
You can also just yell it on the street. So, I mean, that's that's an option. From the rooftops. We could even maybe only get some A-frames done, A-boards. Yeah. and Send people up and down the street promoting it. We can help use all our pint of origin. Exactly. We'll turn them the other way around and just write Crafty Pint podcast. but Whatever it takes. Yes. Enjoy it. Cheers.
00:16:14
Speaker
Cheers.
00:16:17
Speaker
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00:16:31
Speaker
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00:16:47
Speaker
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00:17:07
Speaker
Tina, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Will. Thanks for having me. Thank you for
Sensory Strategies at CUB/Asahi
00:17:12
Speaker
joining us. This is a long way to chat. You were on our list of names of people to get on the podcast before we launched and a couple of years in we're here. And I think I appreciate it as well. Not only are doing this, one of you I guess it's a pretty busy time of the year for you. You know, the day job, ye but also here setting up for the awards. And also um you currently have two broken ribs and struggling to breathe and we're asking you to come and talk to us for, you know, on the podcast. So we really appreciate it. No, I'm all good. All good. um I guess for the uninitiated, which hopefully isn't too many of our listeners, um how would you describe your role in the beer industry? um At the moment, I head up a team that looks after sensory and ah training, all things that relate to that. So we look at um training our tasting panels, supporting our breweries, our innovation team, our product development teams on all things sensory. So everything from training a panel um to pulling together different strategies and how we best execute that and how we get the most out of some of the work that we're doing and relying on those taste panels and that sensory information to really drive some of those decision making processes. so How broad is that in terms of the all the beers and the brands within CUB slash assai which Whichever you prefer to refer to it these days. You know, are you across every single sort of brand being sold in Australia or? Pretty much. Yeah. The focus for the team that I head up is predominantly beer, but we also do um a lot of our other beverages, ciders, RTDs, non-alc. So the touch points are ah across the whole portfolio. Yeah. So there is a lot of information that we gather and we support the different teams in developing that. And it's been really exciting because to sort of shift out of beer a little bit into the other portfolios has been really exciting to see what some of the similarities are, but also the differences. And ultimately the sensory capability that we offer within the business can extend to different um
00:19:12
Speaker
categories So you're using similar tools, similar methodology, similar data interpretation to be able to sort of gather that information from the taste panels and be able to deliver that information back to the teams for whatever strategy is being used to to utilise sensory.
00:19:32
Speaker
And how do you get started? Did sensory bring you to beer or did beer bring you to sensory? They all happened at once. um No, probably beer brought me to sensory because I started off, um it came into the industry from a quality perspective. So I started off 89, late 89, so don't do the math, um as a QA chemist. So I finished a science certificate.
00:19:56
Speaker
degree, did a post-grading education and I knew that I wasn't going to be a teacher but ultimately i end up sort of doing that sort of thing in one way. But um yeah, I got into the industry and just gave myself a couple of years to think, well, I'll work in the lab for a little while and then I'll move on to something else. um And then it my so my interest really spiked with the sensory side of things because we used to do it, ah a lot of the sensory, a lot of the tasting was done by head brewers, technical brewers or you know chemists, predominantly male. um So it was one of those things that I thought, oh, this has piqued my interest. And it was really interesting when analysing the beer, you see so many different aspects of it that combining that with sensory, I really took in a... ah
00:20:44
Speaker
a real interest in how you can combine the two to be ultimately deliver something that consumers like. And it was more than just this amber liquid that was fizzy, nice white foam and drink and consume chilled. that it really opened up my perspective on you know how beer can be perceived, but also what goes into it and how broad the different styles were. So that's where I went, we need to know more about this. So um got myself involved in you know learning a bit more about sensory and and asked to sort of write a formalised program because we would do sensory and tastings and fault detection more on an ad hoc basis but then I created like a formalised training program that I delivered across all of our breweries at the time and then I went well can't leave this just to the technical side of the business let's train the sales people and and you know um none of that was happening then it was not no no the the world of beer program that was used to be a day-long program
00:21:52
Speaker
um Yeah, it was aimed at our commercial business. So really honing in on what beer was, the the extent of the styles that we had in the portfolio then, and also more broadly um to really sort of tap in on that beer is more than just a schooner glass of amber frothy liquid, which is not a bad thing either. Yeah.
00:22:14
Speaker
and Were you a beer drinker before you took the role? No, not not quite. Not really. I mean, beer was always part of, you know, family occasions and stuff. um But I sort of had a crush on a guy at uni that loved his Melbourne bitter. So Tina learnt to drink Melbourne bitter right at uni. And yeah, I really enjoyed it. ah It wasn't a struggle. It wasn't as though, oh my God, I have to... you know, drink this. But yeah, I really took an interest in it. Not as much as like when I started, like I said, I thought it'd be a couple of years, but um I loved it. And it it was more the culture too. I think it was a a nice challenge and ah yeah, it it really intrigued me.
00:22:55
Speaker
it sounds like it had a bit of a blank canvas as well. Like there was so little actually happening that if someone went in and said, hey, we should be doing in this and you could sell the concept to the right people, you could do whatever you wanted. I mean, it's not like we weren't doing it at all. But um as far as how we're doing it now and how sensory training and sensory capability is built, it's quite consistent. You know, that we've got a lot of confidence in the the capability and the consistency in the way our um tasters perform. And I mean, you've... years ago. We've got to get you back in, James. Both of us. Yeah, yeah. It was an amazing, amazing experience. Yeah. um And we'll come to it. But in terms of, you know, you mentioned the lab as well. like How much of you, like, seeking to make sure every product that comes out of the business is consistent, is down to lab testing and measurement? And how much is down to those
00:23:43
Speaker
like, you know, the sensory sessions that you have across every part of the the business? Yeah, look, it's it's a partnership. um We analyse everything um from raw materials, water, right through to the final product. And um we do sensory assessments on a number of those stages too. I think we worked out years ago that, you know, a beer is assessed more than 30 odd times before it gets to the final um consumer.
00:24:12
Speaker
But um you you need both. like So the analytical evaluations, analytic analytical testing will give you what's in there what what quantities, but then it's really ah ah an overview from the sensory perception and and evaluation from our tasters that really brings everything together and it's immediate. So we get um ah an instantaneous sort of ah perspective of what beer is right from that final tasting and along the way too. So It's it's a partnership. Definitely a partnership. is it feasible that you could get, you know, the same beer, different batches where the analytical results are identical, but it goes through sensory and pick so you pick up and it's like, this isn't where it needs to be? Yeah, the but probably the best way, identical. And it's not um every every element of um our analysis or every, sorry, analysis. attribute or parameter that we analyse has ah a spectrum that it it can fall within. So it's not, you know, it's plus or minus whatever in most cases. So you'll get a range within that plus or minus and then it could, so it all fall in within the specifications and we've got targets, we've got limits. So a beer that comes out that is within spec, as you'd say, um gets tasted. And there might be slight nuances that you go, well that's a little bit different, but it still falls within the profile. So all of our products that we evaluate have been assessed and evaluated according to their analytical specifications. And then we create a profile, like a blueprint, a sensory b blueprint of that product. So we can then, when we evaluate it a score, it's evaluated based on what those elements or attributes of the profile
00:26:02
Speaker
perfect profile is. So you usually can pick its maybe like a slight difference. It's like every time you make a curry or a sauce or i don't know, it could be a cheese sandwich. Which spice did go bit heavy on today? Yeah, exactly. So you do measure, it's a teaspoon or half a teaspoon or, you know, by eye or whatever, but you'll have slight differences that maybe the average punter can't pick up. um But, you know, it's we've trained people's quite extensively to sort of be able to pick up those nuances because it also helps with um getting ahead of making sure, you know, if it's something that's consistently happening or is it, you know, new hop variety or is it a new malt or whatever it is, that's another reason why we analyse and evaluate from a sensory um evaluation that we use those two in a partnership and, yeah, hand in glove. Yeah.
00:26:57
Speaker
And how's it sort of, look, James has sat in on one of these panels, but what's sort of the morning or the day yeah look like the team? Across the board, and this this sort of is an advantage of working for someone like Asahi that's got the opportunities to be able to extend this more extensively across all of our sites, all of the regions. You know, there's consistency in the methodology that we use, the standards that we adhere to and the process of um training our panelists. so every every panelist will undergo a ah a series of um assessments or, you know, training sessions that will first identify or support them in identifying different attributes. And often we sometimes initially focus on faults before you get to the profiling stage. So they'll go through a recognition and identification process and that's where ABR will be spiked with different um
00:27:54
Speaker
flavors or attributes, and it'll highlight what the difference is to the control or the reference. So they start to build that memory and that um data in their mind about what, i say for example, we might use a Great Northern um to use as our base beer and how is that different if we've spiked it with X, so ah compared to the ah ah right, you know, a good, great northern. um And how does that differ? So the panelists build ah and i an ability to recognise recognise differences, and then we test them on recognising different concentrations of those flavours. So it might be at the average threshold, and then we'll drop it um a couple of points, and then we might increase it because you end up getting a different but perception of um flavour based on the intensity.
00:28:47
Speaker
And then there's always testing. and We do ah an externally validated program. We take part in that where we get sent spiked spikes for dosing into beer. We don't know what they are The facilitator doesn't know what they are. We assess them, send it back to our provider. and i hope you don't get caught out. No, we don't.
00:29:06
Speaker
We actually perform really well. We perform really, really well. So, yeah, it is it is quite rigorous. We do it – currently we're running training ah once a week to every – or once a fortnight. and We evaluate beer on a couple of times a day. um So we might have a flight of 12 beers that have come in from our different sites and we evaluate those based on um key parameters. The sites also do that. um And the data's collated and compared. So, and one thing, hand on heart, I can say that, you know, the consistency across the panels, because that's what I always look for, is like, is the panel in Queensland the same as our regional hub, is the same as, and and there is really good consistency across the panel. So the training pays off.
00:29:52
Speaker
yeah and not Are there like, you know, people who are naturally gifted tasters and great at sensory? or i was going to say, yeah, do you get some like super tastes every now and then? It's like, okay, I'm keeping my eye on you. Yeah, you do. And we have got a few of those. there are um You know, there's a lot of... ah physiology that sort of happens within the sensory space that you do lose your sense of taste after the age of about 65, 70. Your taste buds don't proliferate proliferate as quickly as what they did earlier. Some people are supertasers, so the their genetic makeup is such that they can their sensitivity is quite acute so that they pick up a number of different attributes. There are tasters that are anosmic or blind to certain flavours and you can pin through training, you can identify that. And I pay a lot of um
00:30:45
Speaker
a kudos and credibility to the tasters that can acknowledge that and go, but I've found different ways of identifying it. I remember a brewer on one of the panels, he couldn't identify diacetol at 100 paces, at even one pace. so But he he worked out a way in which how it changes, say, for example, if there if we spike diacetol in Carlton Draft, for example, he identified how that changed the profile of Carlton Draft and sort of found it so consistently that
00:31:16
Speaker
He knew that it dropped the esters by changing the profile. So he would often sort of say, I think there's diacetol in there. I don't smell diacetol, but I think it is because it's changed the profile. So that level of, you know, capability is really important to have. And you see that more and more within the judging space. I find that people are... less, less not hesitant to go, you know what, I'm blind to acetaldehyde or whatever. But um it is really important to be able to pick up those different characteristics at different levels and, and combine all of that to, to know what you're capable of in the long run.
00:31:54
Speaker
and And are there, are there things that you people can do to sort of stay sharp or ahead of the game or anything? are you almost lost track of what the original question was and now it's come back to me. You do have, it like they do stay sharp and consistency, time, um,
00:32:08
Speaker
exploring different beers and not sort of being insular in the one style or, and you know, all brewers are guilty of it. They'll brew the beers that they, they know they like, or they know that they want to brew and you can develop, you know, what we've heard heard often is a seller palette, but part of that is sort of jumping out of that sphere and trying something different. um And you, so you do be, I do believe that people can build their capability and their proficiency in, sensory evaluation. There are people that are better at articulating it and often people will say females are better tasters than males. I think that's that's true to a degree genetically but I also think that you know women tend to see tend to be more articulate articulate about a lot of things. The language you know is quite extensive in in how we describe things from what we're eating to what we're wearing or
00:33:07
Speaker
you know and that's across the board. We just like to grunt and move on. I don't and look I don't I try not to sort of um always bring gender into it because I think I've seen examples of um different people you know regardless of their gender describing and articulating beer flavour really well so i think it does ultimately well like you said you know what is it that you can build on and that's it exposing yourself to different beer styles. So before something like, you know, competition, I'll often think, now what beer haven't I had for a long time? to Go out, grab it, taste it, you know, go back to the notes and sort of re-familiarise yourself with the stuff that you don't often have. um And then it's always, you know, a pleasant surprise when you come across a gold medal and go, what? And what do you think sort of set you up to, you know, become one of the country's most you know respected, you know, I guess sensory or taster, sensory um gurus and, you know, and judges, you know, do you think, is it, you know, innate, something innate to you that yet you are super taster or you have absolutely good palate? Is it the time spent doing it? Like, cause you know, you talk to anyone who's involved in this space and it's like, Tina, Tina's the king's the queen when it comes to all these things, you know? Oh, I think you probably nailed it with the time and, you know, the time spent. I have been in the industry for over 35 through 50.
00:34:33
Speaker
And it has been a long time and I wouldn't swap it for anything. But it's also, i love food. I love cooking. I love, I've found a new interest in gardening. so cultivating plants and stuff like that, I really get a buzz out of, know,
00:34:49
Speaker
looking at flavours and the way things interact with each other. So I think deep down, i have a real interest in in beer because of that. So part of that has driven some of that exploration. And, you know, I really enjoy looking at things that sometimes that we don't brew, you know, going outside the box and and ah ah identifying different beer styles that could create and the next trend or something that will sit in my shelf something.
00:35:16
Speaker
fridge or whatever but I think part of it is you know being tenacious and and I think a lot of times earlier on it was more like why can't I be a bee judge why can't I run a sensory why why do I have to be a brewer brewer to prove that I know something about beer so a lot of that was you know a bit of There's a glass ceiling. Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. There's the beer foam. Just push through it. um But, yeah, a lot of it was that just sort of proving um some people wrong, I suppose, or just showing that it it can be if you if you're passionate about something, just go for it. I've got three kids and I just wanted to make sure that they all sort of sort had a good, you know, demonstration of work.
00:36:04
Speaker
not, you know, cowering away from a challenge and, yeah, what better way to do it than try it yourself. And how's looking back at judging feeling? Because I imagine, i mean Abers has changed no massively as well, right? It would have all been brewers for one, yeah male brewers presumably for one, whereas the room is full of, they're from across the industry now and that kind of thing. you know, the the first time, I know i i know for a fact because the the person who that was looking after the competition or the head judge at the time, I thank them for you know being part of it, get finally getting an invite to to judge Beer and and sit at the table. And it was like, well, we've we've um been challenged to address the gender balance.
00:36:47
Speaker
All right. Okay. So I'm a number. are the gender balance. Yeah, exactly. but um And it has changed a lot. And that's I think I mentioned that before with people ah being confident and comfortable about putting up their hand and saying, I actually, I'm not strong on this style. Whereas beforehand when I started, it was more, you know, whatever the head, the, the the brewers or yeah and it was mainly brewers um their tenure in the business really dictated their experience and sometimes you go you can't pick that up really but um but yeah it was it was a very different scene and I think a lot of that has come down to
00:37:29
Speaker
the network of people that have been involved over time and the way that competitions have been more inclusive in not only you know addressing a gender balance, but also a breadth of experience. So you've got a number of people that are not brewers, have might may brewed one beer or not none at all, but have either got a technical background a commercial background or have, you know, their interest and their passion in in understanding beer from raw material to final product um really dictates that passion and what they can bring to the table. so
00:38:04
Speaker
when we look at the tables and the way we've constructed the tables this year, it a really, I'm really happy with the cross section of different experiences and where from, from where the, they've come, sorry, that didn't make sense. Where in the industry that they've come in from and what experiences they bring, literally bring to the table. So everyone's learning. And I think most people will say, you know, one, great networking. Two, tasting some cracking beers. And three, i learned something. So for me, that third one is the key thing. So no matter how long you're in the industry, you'll always learn something. Yeah, and I guess it's not the only thing that will have changed over the last 30
Evolution of the Craft Beer Industry
00:38:46
Speaker
years. um You know, the range of beers you've had coming through your sensory panels, you know, with the CB Asahi, especially taking on, you know, the likes of Goat and Pirate Life over the years. How's that been? know, I guess the big brand beers are probably reasonably similar to how they were when you started out. but Maybe not so much for yourself, but sort of working with all the other people in the business to go, right, we now need to understand this broad range of IPAs, paywallows, whatever it might be, you know, but yeah alongside what traditionally had been judged. Yeah. Look, it has been different. I think when I ah started, I think there may have been five core brains, you know, VB, Carlton Draft, Melbourne Bitter, Crown Lager, the list goes on. um
00:39:27
Speaker
But and they the the portfolio has changed quite a bit and it has been it's a journey. I don't think it' I'd say it was a huge challenge because I think brewing is brewing. And while there are different um influences influences. requirements to brew different um beer styles, ultimately the process in itself is pretty stock standard for the last few thousand years um with some minor, you know or not minor, major technical advancements and stuff. But um I think the the introduction of the the craft portfolios has been a real
00:40:05
Speaker
energiser in expanding one, the portfolio of beers that you know we get access to, but also um understanding the breadth of the beer landscape overall and having the the opportunity to sort of really get your hands on and your palate on into tasting those beers and experiencing the differences. And I think where it's been really valuable is the innovation pipeline that we we get to sort of work with different brewers across those companies and breweries that bring in experience and
00:40:42
Speaker
you know, creativity into the portfolio that you would normally get. But having that experience in-house has been really, really brilliant. So i i love one of the best roles that I had was within the innovation team and working ah got across the different portfolios and understanding um the different nuances of the the beers and the processes and the ingredients that really bring together that passion from the brewer and you can extend that out. So I think it's been really, really great. We are certainly sport for choice, I must admit.
00:41:16
Speaker
Well, we might take a quick break and yeah we'll be right back. Cheers. Cheers.
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Speaker
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00:42:20
Speaker
Welcome back. And Tina, we're releasing this on the eve of judging or judging we'll just finish, but we'll hear the results soon. Is there any beers that stand out to you from a long career of judging them?
00:42:30
Speaker
um Yeah, there's probably a few that I um may have not remembered the actual name or anything like that. But I think what sort of usually stands out from a judging perspective, what usually stands out for me is when I'm surprised with a beer that I'm on paper, I might not like it um But I remember thinking I'm not a huge fan of chilli beers unless it's really well integrated and I might have one or two but that's probably my limit. um But I can't remember what competition it was but I think it was a black IPA infused with chilli And I went, oh, holy, what what's this going to be? you know like and But I thought, oh my gosh, they've integrated the roast character. They've integrated the hot profile. And then throwing a bit of chili, and I went, you've got me. It was so well integrated that I just thought technically they've you know excelled that um that brew. And it was a few years ago, so I'm just trying to think of the name of it, but I can't. But there was one that I did make note of.
00:43:34
Speaker
last year at the International Beer Cup in Japan in Osaka. I think it was the um field beer. I think it was. Was it? I had right. Yeah, it was the field beer. And it sort of divided the table and it was, um a the name of it was baked tomato spicy ale from...
00:43:51
Speaker
from Miyoko Kogen Brewery in Japan. I think it's one of the ski field breweries up there. And it divided the table because a few people went, spiced tomato. It wasn't spicy like it was in Chile, but it was almost a baked tomato, a bit of basil, a bit of coriander. And I thought initially it really took me by surprise because I went, why? Not even what, but why. Yeah, why? Why? But it was just so well integrated. And part of the discussion on the table, which was sometimes the real benefit of judging with different group of people, is that to some people it was like, you know, definite tomato. And I said, all right, is it definite tomato or is it DMS? Because that was a challenge I put to them because a lot of times people will pick up DMS as that crusty tomato sauce smell or, you know, canned tomatoes or corn.
00:44:45
Speaker
Generally, but it was so well integrated. I thought i could easily sit down with a bowl of spaghetti marinara and have this beer. It was just so well integrated and delicious. And the other one probably that comes to mind now is ah not that I've judged it, but it was one of those surprises that I went, oh, this is good. I could drink this. I'm not a bourbon drinker, but the Goose Island um Bourbon County Oh my God. Oh my God. That was delicious. And that sort of sticks in my mind from thinking, I don't drink bourbon ever, but just a well integrated, well infused sort of character. So yeah, sometimes i enjoyed coming to this because it's the surprise, you know, I know that the quality and consistency of beers being produced at the moment is really,
00:45:36
Speaker
really exceptional. Very rarely do we get the faults that we did 20 years ago, yeah which is a highlight of any competition. So often I come in thinking, what's going to surprise and delight me?
00:45:49
Speaker
We've been talking about 20 years ago or even further. I know we touched upon it a little bit before, not everyone in the context of judging. But what was the beer industry like, you know, the late 80s, early You know, I guess as a young woman coming into the industry, but just just generally, because I guess, you know, most most people in the craft beer industry will have come in in the last 5, 10, 15, 20 years. yeah you know, we're going back a bit further than that
Challenges and Progress for Women in Beer Industry
00:46:09
Speaker
now. What was it what was it like in Australia? Well, in the dinosaur era, um um it was really quite different. I know I i worked in the QA lab, which I think maybe 15% were women, maybe maybe a bit more, a bit less. um So we weren't the majority or even you know equal parts, but and it was quite different. I think generally... um the perception was that you would be there until either you know you you moved on to something else or there were a lot fewer female brewers at the time and it was challenging for them because it was it was a difficult time and I think I've often been asked if I had my time over would I do it again or would i what would I change and I probably if it was the same era I wouldn't change anything because that's what sort of helped support ah you know the women in the industry at the time. There was something that we loved about the industry, the camaraderie, but also the production and and the beverage itself that I found that I think, like you asked me beforehand about sensory, I found a ah a spot that I felt comfortable in.
00:47:20
Speaker
that wasn't One, it was a bit difficult because I remember being in my first tasting when I decided to write, you know, i got the approval to write these sensory programs.
00:47:31
Speaker
And I was essentially instructed just to listen, not contribute, but just to listen. yeah And this listening happened for several months while I copiously took notes and understood what... you know, what I would be working towards. But then you you change that perception because you sort of, you you back yourself. And I think that was probably one of the biggest lessons that I have often sort of said is if you've you're driven and you you have a passion for something and you want to build that, your credibility is to back yourself but also your you what you deliver will demonstrate what you're worthy so you might have a great personality might have you know great disposition and stuff like that but ultimately what you bring to the table is what's going to be your ongoing success and your springboarding to the next stage so yeah I can't say it was easy there's a lot of stuff One day I'll write it all down. but
00:48:26
Speaker
yeah it Tenacity is the one thing that sort of comes to mind when it when I think about you know the early years. And and i'm I'm glad I stuck it out because I often think...
00:48:38
Speaker
Could I do cheese? i could, but um yeah, no, I wouldn't swap it. So tell I was going ask, you know, do you think it helped or hindered you being a woman in the industry that stage? But it sounds like maybe it helped you being who you were, you know, it was you that it ah that sort of helped you make progress because of what you wanted, yeah know, yeah how you presented yourself and and what you wanted to achieve. Yeah, I think part of that also comes from my background as well. Like, um,
00:49:03
Speaker
Growing up in the 80s and being called a wog and, you know, like sort of being an ethnic background, um it was a real struggle and it wasn't fun a lot of times.
00:49:15
Speaker
And being a short little Greek girl sort of, you know, had its challenges. So I was just already up for that. And I think it's. one of those things that in but from a personal perspective I think I've embraced challenges a lot of times which sort of my dad used to say on his deathbed of all places he said to me Tina you don't know your limits and you know I just sort of went I don't know if that's actually a good thing that he said or a not I mean did he mean it as a good thing well he wasn't that verbal at the time so he wasn't I couldn't I couldn't you know interrogate him But, um yeah, I just sort of wonder sometimes, and it's true, like i'll I'll push my limits and I'll sometimes, you know, to the detriment or, you know, there's been some tough times. But I think for me, it was an advantage being a woman at that time because I actually, i think I got a lot more out of the industry
00:50:07
Speaker
learning and embracing and taking on some of those challenges, then I think I would have maybe going into radiology, which is what my first preference was. So it may have helped now, but yeah, so I think the challenges were worth it Any surprised by how much the industry has changed or? Pleasantly surprised. Pleasantly is surprised. We did a ah podcast internally recently, um, with our CEO, Amanda Sellers on, um,
00:50:39
Speaker
but ah She spoke to myself and to one of the other brewers, Emily Rose, and it was really enlightening, really um encouraging to hear that Emily didn't feel um that gender difference when she started as a brewer. and She's incredible. And just to see her progress and her development and just to see a lot of women within the brewing industry, I just sort of go it's changed. There's still ways to go. like I mean, we all know that there are hurdles within the industry that are still being worked through. but um i was really... um
00:51:15
Speaker
encouraged and really ah got a bit emotional to go, wow that is real progress to for someone to come into the industry and not feel like they're a minority or not feel disadvantaged and feel supported more than anything. So it'd be great to sort of see that more extensively across the total industry. i know Asahi has amazing initiatives to sort of be able to build that.
00:51:40
Speaker
um support and network within the industry to feel like you're contributing and you feel like you're you're adding value. um And to say that that wasn't always the case, sort we learn from our past and we use that to sort of build in positive attributes. So,
00:51:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's been good. What what do you think has been responsible for that change? You know, I guess greater diversity within the industry. Has it been just passage of time, pink boots, people like yourself? Like, you know, what what do you think sort of, you know, led to the situation we're in now? All of the above. Okay. Yeah, no, honestly, all of the above. I think the initiatives that a lot of people have influenced the industry with have made um those voices or those people those personalities or those situations where people felt unheard.
00:52:32
Speaker
they offered ah an opportunity and a voice to change things. so there've been a lot of people within the industry. um mean, you look at you look at people like Jane Lewis, who, you know, Trailblazer at the time still is and, you know, with a new um um uh ventures that she's moved into and you just you consider that they are role models and they are just someone that you whether they're mentors or role models you you look at people like that and you think well there's an opportunity there I'll make it and I think people have become more confident about voicing their opinion and man if I had
00:53:08
Speaker
i'm going to be really bloody, but if I had the kahunas that some people have it you know in their early 20s and 30s back then, oh my God. i really admire the confidence and the you know um drive that a lot of people have got in the industry now. I just hope that as a total industry, we further encourage that and further build that because I think that will – You know, we're we're in a climate where were a lot of people are struggling, but I think as a network and as a cohort, ah I wouldn't want to work in any other industry. but I guess look like Jane, you'd be regarded as an inspiration to many women working in the industry now. how How does that feel? is it
00:53:50
Speaker
did you feel a responsibility or is it, you know, rewarding to know that there are people out there that will have seen what you've done and gone, i can i can be part of this industry? i think I think the responsibility, yes, because if I didn't learn anything from what my experiences were and I just sort of let things slide and just went cruised along, that's pointless. I don't think there is a responsibility to make sure that um things are improved on time and time again. um I'm really honoured sometimes when I get, and I'm very, I really feel uncomfortable when people say a lot of that because I just want to hide under a table. I even thought twice about asking such a question, knowing what you like. But yeah but um I think i if I can, you know, pay it forward because I know there have been a lot of people that have supported me in my career and have just out of the blue, you know.
00:54:39
Speaker
Where I didn't think would get some of the support, I did end up getting it. And it was a testament to how the industry has changed because a lot of the support I've had has also been from both genders. Mm-hmm. Women, generally, because there's a common, you know, experience, but also lot of the men that I've worked with in the industry have been really forthright about making sure that we feel comfortable. And, you know, there are other examples, but if I didn't pay it forward, it'd be remiss of me. I'd sort of, yeah, feel quite crap. Yeah. I guess switching to the consumer as well, I guess over the time I've been the industry, which is what, 15, 16 years now, there's been a number of sometimes interesting attempts to entice more women to drink beer. I'm pretty sure in the early days of the Crafty Pint there was like a pink lager with a pink label or whatever. There's been fruity beer, what have you. Most of them seem to have failed. I mean, what do you think beer could do to attract a broader audience or is that part of its remit anyway?
00:55:45
Speaker
That's where I think it's not a demographic. I think the industry's got to look at ah broadening the exposure and the opportunities from an occasion basis and look at not just targeting a beer to a demographic but targeting it more broadly and understanding you know, what else is there that will attract people irrespective of their gender, irrespective of their age. I think we often forget certain age groups within the category that could be drinking a bit more beer. I think there's a lot of things that we're doing within the industry and within Asahi to look at how people's preferences and ah options and desires are sort of changing within the the scope of... Look at, you know, years ago, if you said to me that um zero elk beer would have been where it is now, I thought it's just stupid. I don't know. He's going to pay for zero elk beer. But it is. It's one of those things that through...
00:56:44
Speaker
um more exploration and understanding of what consumer preference is and that's what really floats my boat a lot of the times is understanding what is that next trend or what are the what are the peripheral trends that influence beer that make it something that ah or propose and the next innovation or the next direction And I think one of the things that we've really got to focus on is occasion and whether or not that occasion is a large volume drinking or it's an occasion where we never would have consumed beer. Is that an opportunity?
00:57:18
Speaker
and ah And that's where i I get really engaged about what that challenge means and how we we look at that. And I think you see that across the portfolio, especially with a lot, like you said beforehand, in the partnerships we've got with the craft breweries, how extensive those portfolios are becoming. um You know, who would have thought VB 3.5 would have, you know, been as good as it is at the moment? Well, I remember when you tried dropping the ABV 0.2% about 15 years ago yeah and it backfired, let alone actually putting out a mid-strength version, and you know. Yeah. And again, it's sort of you've got to be agile enough and proactive enough to sort of understand where those –
00:57:58
Speaker
interests and and trends are coming from and not just focus on the one direction, but what is it from a peripheral point of view that can influence different um start new styles. Or it could be, you know, the reemergence of older styles that have all of a sudden suited a particular occasion. They'll never be the big volume drivers, but they'll suit an occasion that can then springboard onto something else. so Are there any styles that are exciting you?
00:58:29
Speaker
It's really hard. Like I sometimes think what's in my fridge and it can vary quite a lot. um But a lot of the styles, I don't know, it's hard to sort of, ah just like fashion, I don't follow anything really. Like I'm the worst person to go shopping with, but it's just, i'll it it'll be occasion by occasion. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:51
Speaker
You've tried. Yeah, I know. um and And I guess back to beer consumption, mean as a whole, it's been on decline the entire time I've been in the industry. And you know and then craft had its the craft sector that had its rise and then that sort of you know fallen away, plateau, whatever. But overall, there's still a genuine so decline as as it is across most drinks categories now. If you, Tina, had a magic wand, and you know what would be the one thing that you think you know could help at least arrest the decline? Don't make things booming again, but you know what do you think could arrest the decline across beer as a category?
00:59:26
Speaker
That's a tough one, James, because it's sort of like there's no silver bullet. And you'd be a multimillionaire if you had the answer. Yeah, exactly right. I'd be retiring tomorrow. um ah Yeah, i think I think that is a really, really difficult situation question to ask, mainly because I think there are, I think we've all, as an industry, we've often looked for what is it, is it, not what are the elements that could sort of build into that. So to sort of look at, you know, what could arrest the decline, i think there a lot of different aspects of how we how we we approach beer, and one of them might just be changing the perception, and I think that's probably been a career goal to change The perception of beer as being, and it has in in many ways, this blokey sort of drink. I still have, and it's hard, it really bugs me sometimes when I have people ask me, you drink beer? You you actually like, no, I just made it. career and living out of it or a hold my nose even even little things like that is changing that mindset that beer is for a certain demographic if we could change that generally even if you don't drink beer well you don't not a fan of it what is it that would make you consider it is where probably that silver bullet is because from that would it um expand a lot of different opportunity opportunity styles and so on so Yeah, I i don't think I'm equipped to sort of answer that because I've seen peaks and troughs of different sort of approaches and it is cyclic. The industry is really, really cyclic and it's where, you know, a lot of the breweries were deleting low alcohol beers. They're coming back in now. So you go, all right, what is it that's sort of attracting that next generation that will keep them in the category and even keep them in alcohol?
01:01:22
Speaker
So, Yeah. Hard rated keeping them in alcohol now, isn't it? Well, yeah. It's a good thing. It's just busy. yeah Yeah. I just had one last question. We didn't send it to you, so I was going to check that you're all right. I was thinking like, you know, if a small brewery wanted to build a sensory team, yeah is there any like one thing?
01:01:42
Speaker
Yeah. you have't yeah yeah also ask but yeah. And Tina, like, you know, if there was a small craft brewery that wanted to be better at sensory and kind of have a more formal sensory team, like, is there anything you think they shouldn't miss or they need to make sure they're doing properly? Yeah. Look, that's a really good question, Will, because a lot of people have asked me that in the past and through conversations and stuff, it's something that you can...
01:02:07
Speaker
To say you can easily address it as a small brewery, there is a cost that's associated with it, time and cost of raw materials as to or capsules or liquids, whatever. um You can get away with not spiking beers to some degree using things like butter menthols or you know Werther's caramel lollies chuck it in a beer get it you're not going to get the carbonation so they're different variables that you're mucking around with but you can I think ultimately is look at even if it's keeping quality like looking at the shelf life of your products and start the process of how you train your little cohort of people within the brewery to be able to identify faults or changes within the profile. One of it is to sort of get a profile down. So the first thing, if I was to open up a little brewery, not have any funds to sort of buy the the capsules and stuff,
01:03:07
Speaker
the first thing I would be doing is looking at the biz that I'm producing and creating a profile and going, all right, is this is this, and it's not always the first cut, but is this the template of the profile that we're going to be tasting? And run those tastings regularly. it might not be once a week. It might not be once a fortnight.
01:03:25
Speaker
but run them relatively frequently so that you start to build and no you know a really good and objective view of what those that beer is. Introduce other beers from other po other breweries um and taste things blind so that then you build up that um language and you build up the the content or the the library of different flavours so you can start to to bank some of these differences and compare it to your brands, compare it to a brand that's fresh, compare you know as opposed to something that's been sitting in the boot of the car for three months or even two weeks.
01:04:02
Speaker
You start to build that in and and you can, as long as you're documenting um a lot of the information, then you've got something to go back on. But I think the key thing is to sort of have a clear idea of why you want to do sensory? Is it for fault finding and quality or is it building you know um profiles and innovating around that? So having a clear strategy ah around why why you want to do sensory.
01:04:30
Speaker
and It's the first thing. And then set some guidelines around how will you do the tasting. And if it's rudimentary, sticking a weather's lolly to sort of, you know, in the can or jug or juggle whatever to bring up that diacetyl character, it may be as simple as that. And there's a heap of stuff on the internet that can, you know, guide you or put a, you know,
01:04:54
Speaker
collaborate with another small brewery to buy those capsules, to run a tasting once a quarter, even if it's as simple as that, that's beneficial too. And if you were to do a blind tasting of one of your beers against some of your peers and your beer comes last, what's the next step?
01:05:10
Speaker
but Well, that's ah back to the, you know, why is it? Which is why when you're doing judging or feedback or evaluation, the feedback that you give is not, well, I just thought it was crap or, no, I've tasted better. That's not really. Because guess that's where cellar palate might come in if you've had a beer for a long time and there might be something that develops. yeah I'm sure I've spoken to someone from a brewery in Victoria for years. They said, oh, yeah, we've got a whole bunch of other pale ales in or whatever, we were like, None of us really like our own beer. Yeah, yeah. And it is really, it's, sorry, it can be quite confronting, but it can also just
01:05:48
Speaker
Slap across the ears to go, you know, get real here. you you pal you And a lot of um breweries do are guilty of that drift, which is why it's important to keep that taste inconsistent. And even if it's, you know, you keep ah one of the slabs you keep in a cold room and keep the other one. um in a warmer temperature and every two weeks pull one out see how it deviates and see how it changes because then what you're doing is you're replicating what's in retail so if you get a customer complaint then you know you're tracking something and pulling it out of you know a warmer or ambient chilling it down and trying it because that's where you start to get that incremental change and you can pin it down to something and answer wonderful tina thank you so much joining us Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. It's always good talking to you guys. And now you're free to go and judge for a few days. Yes. Thanks. Thanks very much, guys. Cheers.
01:06:45
Speaker
Cheers.
01:06:48
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer-related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com, and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials. We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry, whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries or bottle shops. If you'd like to support the show or partner with Crafty Pine other ways, please reach out to Craig via the details in the show notes.
01:07:18
Speaker
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