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Famous By-elections: Willie Rennie and Dunfermline & West Fife 2006
28 Plays28 days ago
Winner of the 2006 Dunfermline and West Fife by-election, Willie Rennie, is interviewed by Matt Davis. The seat, previously held by Labour, did not hold out much prospect for the Liberal Democrats. The party was in the midst of a challenging period with the previous leader, Charles Kennedy, who had recently resigned, and the campaign to replace him which had seen further challenges to the party. The seat was also next door to the constituency of future Prime Minister Gordon Brown, so the prospects were not favourable. Nonetheless the party gained the seat against the odds. This interview asks why.
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Transcript
Introduction to Observations Podcast Series
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Observations podcast and welcome back to our series on famous by-elections.
The 2006 By-Election and Liberal Democrat Victory
00:00:16
Speaker
Today we'll be talking about the by-election for Dunfermline and West Fife in 2006.
00:00:22
Speaker
At the beginning 2006, the MP for Dunfermline and West Fife, Rachel Squire, died leading to this by-election in this constituency. Now this by-election led to a shock Labour defeat and surprising Liberal Democrat wins.
00:00:35
Speaker
was the first time Labour had lost a seat at a Westminster by-election in Scotland since 1988, when they'd lost to the SNP in the Glasgow Government by-election, and the first time they'd ever lost to the Liberal Democrats in a Scottish Westminster by-election.
Gordon Brown's Local Influence
00:00:48
Speaker
This was especially surprising, given that the future Labour leader, Gordon Brown, lived in the seat at the time. I'm here with the former leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, and winner of this by-election, Willie Rennie.
00:01:01
Speaker
to discuss what makes it such an important part of modern British electoral history.
Political Climate and Campaign Strategies
00:01:07
Speaker
So this by-election occurred against a backdrop of quite poor polling from the Liberal Democrats and a fairly strong position from Labour from like the previous election.
00:01:19
Speaker
Why did you think you could win?
00:01:22
Speaker
I think there was a general dissatisfaction with the way that the Labour Party had taken people in central Scotland for granted.
00:01:33
Speaker
they had assumed that these seats would be won quite easily for decades and that the they hadn't had a fair return for their support over that period.
00:01:47
Speaker
And we tapped into that. So there was a feeling, for instance, around about the hospital, which was in Dunfermline. It was quite new, but it had been downgraded in favour of the hospital in Kirkcaldy.
00:02:03
Speaker
which is only a few miles along the road, but in Fife that's quite an important issue. and Secondly, the town centre, like many town centres in central Scotland, was down at Heel.
00:02:14
Speaker
and People didn't feel that it matched up to its previous glory.
Key Campaign Issues and Strategies
00:02:18
Speaker
And then we had the issue over the bridge tolls, which it was proposed that there should be a toll on the bridge.
00:02:27
Speaker
increased toll on the bridge, and which we were strongly against at the time because it penalised fifers compared with other parts of the country who had bridges but didn't have tolls.
00:02:38
Speaker
So we tapped into issues like that that were really local grounded issues But the more important thing was that that tapped into wider feeling about the Labour Party taking people for granted.
00:02:50
Speaker
And we were fresh and new and energetic. And you know people rallied around us. it was We were quite far back when we started. it But when we finished, we had won by a decent margin.
00:03:05
Speaker
um Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember reading that there was a ah ah bridge toll party competing in this by-election as well. um So how did you manage to convince this large number of campaigners to come to this seat?
00:03:19
Speaker
Because you said there was quite a lot of energy there. Well, I've been around i mean and in the party even longer since, but ah I've been around in the party a long time and I was a campaigner in Cornwall.
00:03:32
Speaker
and I was the chief executive of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. So I knew a lot of people and I called in some favours and said, look, can you come and help me win this by-election? and There was a bit scepticism, but I think with the the commitment that we had shown, with the amount of effort that we had put in, and the amount of money that we had spent and in the early days of the campaign, built that momentum and credibility within the party.
Labour's Historical Dominance and Challenges
00:03:59
Speaker
and I knew the then Director of Campaigns and Chief Executive and I persuaded them that it was winnable. If you looked at the seat, the demographics had changed. it was Now there was large and new housing estates which were effectively commuter and e areas for Edinburgh.
00:04:20
Speaker
And Edinburgh, we've always done quite well in. So it felt as if the the setup was right, the demographics were right. and I was determined to put a lot of effort into it.
00:04:33
Speaker
And that built credibility within the party and persuaded them to come and join me. Okay. Now we've mentioned, obviously, the bridge tolls and kind of a general dissatisfaction with the Labour Party.
00:04:45
Speaker
Are there any other key issues, um that this election, this by-election was fought on? So and there was things like, and you know, to be honest, those were the main ones, but we also did very local stuff.
00:05:02
Speaker
So we were able to do micro campaigning in individual communities, you know, around about speeding or even the pavements or the roads being in a poor condition, and you know, the schools not to stand All of those micro issues we did a lot of work on. So we were into every single community on issues that really matter to them.
00:05:26
Speaker
and But it was it was primarily those those big issues that we that be focused on, but kind of feeding into the the kind of the feel of the satisfaction.
00:05:38
Speaker
mean, this seat had been represented by Labour for decades. And in fact, it was represented by a communist at one point before that. So it wasn't traditional liberal Democrat territory.
00:05:49
Speaker
But we had managed by just connecting on issues that matter to them, we had managed to build up and levels of support. And as you know, the word of mouth spreads.
00:06:01
Speaker
And the word of mouth is probably even more important than the campaigning. Of course, the SNP thought that they should rightly be the ones that challenged the Labour Party for this. There was a bit of an arrogance from the SNP.
00:06:14
Speaker
And they fought on big kind of like Scottish issues. And they had admit I still remember the appalling photo op of this enormous Scottish flag, the Saltire, in the park. Because if that would just spontaneously engender support from from people across the constituency.
00:06:37
Speaker
But their their campaign was quite flat-footed. They weren't really focused on issues that mattered to people. And we convinced people that we were there the main challengers to the Labour Party.
Campaign Methods and Electoral Implications
00:06:48
Speaker
Right. So lots of ah those kind of classic standing near potholes, standing you know near schools. got good good back Exactly. Yeah. Classic local campaigning there. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:01
Speaker
now There was lots of issues like that. And of course, and big employers in the area, like and the defence company, Babcock, was a big employer.
00:07:14
Speaker
and So having an understanding about the importance of defence spending in the area was something to be tapped into as well. So we were able to show to people that we were committed to strong defence of the country because a lot of people's employment was dependent on that company.
00:07:32
Speaker
So we played into that as well and contrasted that with the SNP, who were very much in favour of pulling back on defence when people in that area were much more strongly in favour of a strong defence.
00:07:50
Speaker
Now, there are quite big figures in this campaign. um Obviously, I mentioned earlier that this was in Gordon Brown's backyard. Given that he was a leadership hopeful for the Labour Party at this time, was he popular in the area? and Yeah, was and he he was...
00:08:07
Speaker
but he was It didn't seem, it it counted more in a future the future election in 2010 when he was the Labour leader.
00:08:20
Speaker
But in the 2006 by-election, he was still just the chancellor. And I think people must have focused on Tony Blair and him being in power for too long, the aftermath of the Iraq war, which was still a thing.
00:08:37
Speaker
And I don't think that people necessarily thought it was Gordon Brown's Labour Party, that it was more Tory Blair's Labour Party. So Gordon was all over the campaign.
00:08:48
Speaker
I mean, he was promising and huge, huge sums of money and commitment. He was going to build a new bridge. It felt like within days, a new bridge over the fourth.
00:09:00
Speaker
which would normally take years, but it felt like he was promising within days a new business school in the heart of Dunfermline. All of these things, he was throwing out like confetti.
00:09:12
Speaker
And it didn't feel real because none of this had happened in the decades that they had been you know representing the constituency. So I think big flashy promises didn't cut through any anymore.
00:09:27
Speaker
So it must have been frustrating for Gordon because and i know that he cares deeply about and West Fife and has spent a lot of time on issues like Babcock and defence. So it must have been frustrating that people just weren't listening to the promises that he was making.
00:09:42
Speaker
But I think that was part of the wider problem the Labour Party was facing is they'd been in power for all this time and they hadn't really done very much.
Leadership Transitions and Scandals Impact
00:09:50
Speaker
Right. Yes. So moving on to some other big figures.
00:09:54
Speaker
The Liberal Democrats were in the midst of a leadership election during this time. And the former leader at the time, Charles Kennedy, campaigned in the seats. um As part of this, somebody it leaned out of ah of a window and said shouted, we love you, Charles.
00:10:11
Speaker
um Yeah, I just wonder what your thoughts are on that. Well, just to go back a step. So and it wasn't the most fruitful or promising conditions for a Liberal Democrat by-election win.
00:10:24
Speaker
So Charles had just resigned as leader because of his issues with alcohol. and There then was an ensuing and election for the leadership, the next leadership of the campaign.
00:10:38
Speaker
But numerous candidates were getting into all sorts of problems with front pages of newspapers and various sex scandals and other things at the time. and So they were increasingly being discredited, those those candidates.
00:10:53
Speaker
And so therefore, it probably didn't convince people in the party or outside that we would really have a chance, which is why I think people were surprised that we eventually did. But so it was seen as a really difficult time for the party, but we were determined to get up and and fight it.
00:11:13
Speaker
So we we had... them There was one Sunday afternoon where another set of front pages of the newspapers, the national newspapers, had reported on the latest scandal within and the leadership of the ah party.
00:11:28
Speaker
And I remember saying to my colleagues, right, we can just sit here and mope. or we can go and try out and see what people are thinking. So we went and knocked on doors in the neighbouring community, and only two people in the whole afternoon mentioned the scandal in the front pages of the newspapers.
00:11:45
Speaker
And one, it turns out, was always grumpy. I remember going back later on and knocking on his door, and he was just as grumpy then, well after the violation. But then the other couple who lived together, they they were laughing, but they were laughing with us about the difficulties that we were having and they were supporting us.
00:12:06
Speaker
And we had a decent level of support in that estate. So that convinced me that all this puff up there didn't really matter. What really mattered is what you're doing for them today.
00:12:18
Speaker
And that's why we just we decided, right, we can really win this. If this is him or this is the impact of all the negative publicity, then nothing can really harm us.
00:12:31
Speaker
All we've got is opportunity. But we managed to persuade Charles Kennedy, who obviously was still feeling a bit bruised having stood down as leader, and to come back and campaign with me. And I knew Charles pretty well because we'd worked together over a number of years.
00:12:47
Speaker
And he came back, we did a walkabout down the High Street, and we had a pack
Community Engagement and Support Indicators
00:12:52
Speaker
of supporters and MPs, MPs who had come up from London to to help us.
00:12:58
Speaker
We all had these big yellow signs and in big ruck, we would walk down the High Street. Every so often, somebody would shout out, bollard, because there was a bollard in the road that we wouldn't have noticed otherwise.
00:13:10
Speaker
And So we would walk down the house, and really impressive images, very, very energetic. And we would have feeders who would bring people in to speak to Charles and myself.
00:13:25
Speaker
And then there was this lady, Jane, who unfortunately just passed away quite recently. and She shouted out from just at the Merkit Cross, she said, Charles, we love you.
00:13:37
Speaker
And then there was a moment of... kind of anticipation about what he was going to say. And he says, well, now, madam, I'm in enough difficulty as it is without any of that nonsense.
00:13:52
Speaker
So just quit as a flash. And that, everybody laughed and the tension was released. And we got huge coverage in the newspapers from that. And we managed, therefore, to go on.
00:14:03
Speaker
I think it gave us a bit of extra momentum before the weekend. But I think, to be honest, the momentum had already... had already turned we were looking as if we had a really good chance and of winning the by-election.
00:14:16
Speaker
and So yeah, so Charles's visit was really important in just building the momentum that I think we already had. Right, okay. So I wanted to go a bit deeper onto perhaps a point or moment where you felt the campaign turning. Was it all kind of alongside the issues with the leadership and and how you thought they'd impact the campaign?
00:14:40
Speaker
Or were there kind of other moments on the doorsteps where you realised you could win? There were several moments. m there was There was that moment where the front page of the newspapers...
00:14:53
Speaker
didn't seem to have any impact on support. and There was just the general level of support that was growing when we were doing, I mean, I did enormous amounts of canvassing.
00:15:05
Speaker
We were around every single community. We canvassed more than anybody else. And we had big teams out. And at that point, we were still relying on sheets of paper.
00:15:16
Speaker
Now we've got these, we've got an app on our phone that we're able to enter all the data. So we had big teams out with our canvassing coordinator going down the street. And we, so we were building up support that way.
00:15:30
Speaker
and And then there was a moment, probably about don three or four days out where I was walking down the street And people were waving.
00:15:45
Speaker
And then somebody stopped in the middle of the East Port and then fell on their car in the middle of the road, busy road. and got out and started waving at me and shouting support for me.
00:15:57
Speaker
So I thought the body language was very positive. It felt good. And then another occasion where I was walking down in Recife, which is near the dockyard, and somebody said to me, stopped and said, ah, you're Willie Renne.
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, everybody's talking about you. And there is a... In politics, there's a self-fulfilling thing. There's these and supportive, organic conversations that happen. And that's when you know you've got a really good chance of winning. I mean, in more recent elections, and I remember there was one lady in a village who bumped into her and said she said, ah, Mr. Rennie, we've been down to church and normally vote we vote Conservative, but we've all discussed it and we're all going to vote for you this time.
00:16:43
Speaker
said And then um literally about 100 yards along the road, this man said, ah, Willie, right, we've been down the pub. He says, we've been discussing it all and we voted Conservative last time we'm going to vote for you this time.
00:16:57
Speaker
It's those kind of community conversations that, you know, that people that others respect and community are being looked to for their thoughts. And people are sharing their own thoughts with each other.
00:17:09
Speaker
And that's what was happening then. People were discussing it amongst each other about what to do in this by-election. So there was that moment or they kind of the body language, but also the those kind of communications that indicate that chats are going on within families and pubs and cafes and churches and all the likes.
00:17:30
Speaker
and So I knew we were on to something at that point. and And then just, I think the final thing was the inadequacy of the opposition campaigns.
00:17:44
Speaker
There was no big wallop towards the end when it really mattered. Everything just seemed to peter out. And I thought, well, we've really got a chance here.
00:17:56
Speaker
And we we were increasing our activity where they seem to be decreasing their activity. So all of those things combined together, I think, gave me an indication and that we had a really good chance.
00:18:10
Speaker
and So, yeah, so and a lot of it is little bit. You know, feelings in the gut. and I mean, obviously, we were getting and our canvas data back, and and that was giving us an indication about where we were in a more scientific way.
00:18:26
Speaker
But the kind of the I always think the body language and what people say, how people say it, whether they say it proactively, do they stop you in the street? How do they look? I remember in 2010 when I lost the very same seat in the general election.
Post-Election Reflections and Shifts
00:18:43
Speaker
I was walking down the street and reciting people were looking the other way. And it it's just that slight embarrassment. And you'd have a conversation with somebody who put an argument to you about... There was one lady who said to me, I'm willing, the Tories are coming.
00:19:02
Speaker
I'd say, yeah, but the Conservatives can't win in this seat. Yeah, we know that. But know what mean.
00:19:09
Speaker
And for the fact what they meant was, I'm going to have to vote Labour to stop the Conservatives nationally. And we were saying it doesn't make any difference because they can't win in this seat anyway. But I knew that conversation was happening all across the constituency. So I've seen it from the positive side of people telling you things that you know is being discussed in the community.
00:19:35
Speaker
That's positive, but also negative. And it's just having your ears tuned for these discussions and your eyes just clear so you can see how people are reacting to you.
00:19:47
Speaker
That's what's really important. we I have heard of the theory that kind of some of the big influences at local and individual levels are these community leaders and just people who are having these conversations and, yes, choosing to share their opinion.
00:20:04
Speaker
But it is quite interesting to hear from you. how that then filters back um to you as a politician there. mean, it is it is opinion leaders. I mean, we knew, i mean, just stretching forward a little bit to the independence referendum, I knew we were in trouble with the union when normal, reasonable people in every street were saying, I'm going to be voting for independence.
00:20:30
Speaker
And I knew that those people were of sufficient calibre and weight that they would influence other people. in the street. And so I knew we were in difficulty at that point. And sure enough, you know, it fifty five forty five So it wasn't, it wouldn't take that much to switch it the other way.
00:20:48
Speaker
and So it is those opinion formers that are really important of just winning them over. Now, they're not the only thing that matters because you can have opinion formers, but nobody else believes them.
00:21:00
Speaker
but but yeah But having those people does actually help hugely in just and promoting organically like kind of the messages that really count.
00:21:12
Speaker
and Sometimes they don't decide until about a week out. So it's nerve wracking.
00:21:19
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we're going to stop for a short break now before going a little deeper into this election, the campaign and some of its impacts. And welcome back.
00:21:31
Speaker
So like many by-elections, this came about under some sad circumstances with the death of the previous MP for the seat, Rachel Esquire. Did these circumstances impact how you chose to campaign?
00:21:45
Speaker
and We were careful at the beginning. it was quite a short campaign. and But the we were careful around about the memorial service, which happened during the campaign.
00:22:00
Speaker
actually i think it was a bit over politicized um and think there was some criticism i don't know if it's fair or not but there was some criticism of the over politicization of the memorial service i don't think in the end it had that much of an impact either way um but yeah so we um were careful around about that um and we were always respectful we didn't really refer to Rachel Squire. She was a good Member of Parliament and but we didn't really refer to her during the campaign.
00:22:36
Speaker
So, and but yeah, so it's, you know, it's the nature of by-elections that you need to go on and actually have a robust campaign. We were always respectful to the other parties.
00:22:51
Speaker
We never really played any kind of big negative campaigning within it. and The SMB did. I remember they they played on Charles' alcoholism, and which backfired really badly.
00:23:10
Speaker
But we never really did that. We wanted to keep the campaign quite up and positive and and focused on the issues. So, and yeah, these things are uncomfortable to look back on.
00:23:24
Speaker
and But no, I think you know I was proud of the campaign that we ran. In the years following this by-election, quite a lot changed, both in Scottish politics, but also politics at the UK level.
By-Election's Impact on Scottish Politics
00:23:37
Speaker
In the Scottish parliamentary elections a year on from this by-election, the SNP became the largest party for the first time. And after the 2010 general election, the Liberal Democrats played a kingmaker role.
00:23:50
Speaker
With all of these large changes on the horizon, Were there any hints of this within this by-election campaign at all? Yeah, I think and the 2006 by-election was an indication of dissatisfaction with the status quo in Scotland.
00:24:07
Speaker
and So people were unhappy. I mean, even though we were in coalition with the Labour Party, people were looking that the Labour Party had been in charge for decades and it was a bit stale. And so people were looking for change.
00:24:20
Speaker
Now, we were able to... and take advantage of that dissatisfaction in this by-election and to their credit the SNP did so in other parts of central Scotland and for the 2007 Scottish elections and then went on in 2011 to do even better.
00:24:41
Speaker
and So I think i think the The feeling about Labour taking people for granted was something that was Scotland-wide. and But we weren't able to take advantage of that.
00:24:55
Speaker
In parts of the country that you know we're not normally strong in anyway, I think the SNP managed to do so. If we had been in a stronger natural position in places like Cumbernauld or East Colbride,
00:25:09
Speaker
then I think we would have had a decent chance of taking advantage of the dissatisfaction with the Labour Party. But where we did, where we were strong, like Dunfermline, we were able to take advantage of it.
00:25:21
Speaker
and So I think that it did indicate a kind of a wider Scottish dissatisfaction with the Labour Party who taking people for granted, as I say.
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah. Now, you've had a fairly long political career since this by-election, becoming an ah MSP and later on leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. What, if any, are key lessons you've brought from this by-election and its campaign into the rest of your career?
00:25:51
Speaker
mean, the the biggest challenge... mean, I care deeply about Dunfermline and West Fife. It was part of the world that and needed strong representatives in Parliament, you know, because there was huge...
00:26:04
Speaker
number of industrial diseases with miners knee and lung conditions as the result of the mines and the dockyard. and There was issues about poor health in general.
00:26:16
Speaker
There was making sure that and they there was employment opportunities within the area with decent wages, transport links, and the quality of education,
00:26:30
Speaker
All of those things were really, really important. And I cared deeply about the sea. And I think immersing myself in that kind of and central Scotland, industrial central Scotland, taught me an awful lot about important issues that you don't tend to get in more rural areas and or more commuter areas that we've tended to represent.
00:26:59
Speaker
And so, I mean, in North East Fife, where I now represent, we've got the Lookers and military base. and But obviously, we don't produce that.
00:27:10
Speaker
We don't manufacture, and you know, defence equipment. And that's a quite different area. So that's why understanding about how Babcock worked, going through the process of building the aircraft carriers, which was a really instructive process.
00:27:26
Speaker
All of those things taught me a a huge amount which have helped me greatly in the rest of my career. So I think representing, you would call it an urban area and then a rural area has given me a more comprehensive understanding of all the issues that are important.
00:27:43
Speaker
and So yeah, it's been, i don't regret for one minute, in fact, I'm very grateful that was able to represent the constituency even though it was only for four years. and because it did teach me a huge amount about important issues and that, you know, ah I mean, I can now deliver speeches on defence and Afghanistan and Iraq, on Babcock, on industrial diseases, on all sorts of things that I would never have been able to really do because I hadn't had this kind of baptism of fire that I did get in Dunfermline.
00:28:20
Speaker
Right, so it kind of gives you that, connection to the issues and to a specific place where they where they matter so real hard examples of people who you know had struggled and you don't you know i always find in politics it's really instructive if you've got case studies and you've got individuals who've experienced real real challenges on those things and it does it just puts it in perspective about exactly what does it really mean? Because sometimes in politics, we deal with it in a kind of strategic way that isn't relatable.
00:28:59
Speaker
But actually, I find that if I've got people who are and in my mind when I'm thinking about an issue, and it helps greatly in making it real. and And that has an impact on the policy decisions that you reach.
00:29:13
Speaker
Now, you mentioned there as well that you only represented the seat for four years. I was wondering, In the 2010 election, was it largely just that it's you can't really fight a general election on the same issues as you would a by-election? Because know you did quite a lot of kind of local campaigning.
00:29:32
Speaker
We weren't that far behind. m so I think we got about 35% the Party got about 45%.
00:29:42
Speaker
and So I think there, to be fair, I think there was a number of people who didn't vote in the by-election that did in the general election, who were more prone to vote Labour. But I think the crucial issue was that in that, you remember in that general election, there was the kind of Nick Clegg experience where everybody suddenly discovered this very clear-spoken politician who was different from the rest.
00:30:11
Speaker
And we went way up in the opinion polls and I thought, well, we can win this seat. And then it all started to collapse. And I think it was, and you know, I had built up a coalition of people in Dunfernolland who, you know, went from left to right, who wanted a champion for their seat.
National Dynamics and Local Outcomes
00:30:33
Speaker
But when, and it didn't, as long as we weren't relevant nationally, It didn't really matter. Those people could fit quite together under that ah that kind of single umbrella.
00:30:46
Speaker
But then and when we became relevant, people were starting asking questions about what we were believing nationally. And that started to just pick away at the coalition of support.
00:30:58
Speaker
But I remember the trade unions had funded the Labour Party to do two big mail shots to pin us to the Conservatives. and They said that we you know a vote for us is a vote for the Conservatives.
00:31:13
Speaker
And they had used, I think, some quotes from the likes of Vince Cable or whatever that sounded more sympathetic to the Conservatives. And also Nick Clegg, when he was asked about who he would do a deal with after the election,
00:31:29
Speaker
didn't clearly rule out the Conservatives, obviously later on for obvious reasons, but didn't rule it out. And for some people, that was really unforgivable. and And he made some remark about squatting in Downing Street as well and for Gordon Brown, that we couldn't have that, and this was the weekend before.
00:31:49
Speaker
and So, you know, for people who were looking primarily for an anti-Conservative Member of Parliament, I was unable to be and crystal clear and in my opposition to the cons Conservatives because the leadership of the party were equivocating. They were not as clear as and to local people would have liked.
00:32:12
Speaker
so And maybe they sent something that I hadn't picked up myself. who and So, yeah, so they and that was a big factor towards the end that people just wanted, irrespective of it.
00:32:25
Speaker
I mean, all my ah opinion polling, all the focus group work that we did, found that people liked the work that I was doing. and I was almost as popular as Gordon Brown in the opinion polling that we had done.
00:32:38
Speaker
But when it came to actually voting for us, that support halved. So I think it was primarily around about who's going to be the next government, and can you guarantee that you won't support the Conservatives?
00:32:52
Speaker
And that was not something my national leadership were doing. So and I think that was a big factor in the eventual result. you know and And it is quite rare for by-election wins to be held at subsequent elections because you're not able to just focus on the local issues. And we are considering a whole lot of other issues. But I think that...
00:33:14
Speaker
inability to be crystal clear about the Conservatives was what I think did for me in the end. Right, yeah, I do remember reading a little later on about, I think it was referred to as Clegmania at some point, um but I haven't heard about perhaps some of the negative impacts of that, so that's quite interesting to hear.
00:33:34
Speaker
i mean, it was the moment where Nick was in the debates with David Cameron nordenlowne and and they both started saying that I agree with Nick.
00:33:45
Speaker
And that became the catchphrase for the rest of the campaign. Until the right wing press started really having a go at us and launching numerous attacks over several days.
00:33:59
Speaker
And that began began to have an effect on us. And people then started thinking, oh, do I want Labour or the Conservatives? And that's when it peeled away. and So, at yeah, no, he he really did take the whole thing by storm.
00:34:15
Speaker
and And, yeah, so, yeah, that was a big, big factor. It gave me confidence that we had a really good chance of winning, but then when it became it became more of a problem as the campaign developed, because the more relevant he became and they the less clear he was about the Conservatives, the more problems it caused me.
00:34:41
Speaker
So we'll move on to finish off with a ah ah bit of a light question, really. ah During your time as Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, you partook in a fair share of photo stunts from water skiing to baking to falconry.
00:34:55
Speaker
I was just wondering if you had a personal favourite? a Well, I quite enjoyed them all. Sometimes I've cringed, I think, and have I gone too far? and But I think the the one at the very beginning, which was the unintentional one was the one that created so much laughter but also nervousness was when I was at Gorgie City Farm in Edinburgh, City Farm in Edinburgh and we were visiting all the various animal enclosures and at district we were doing an interview with BBC at the end and in the background there was a couple of pigs in the pig pen and they decided to get rather amorous with each other
00:35:35
Speaker
And that was put out live on the television that pito and full on the television that night. And I thought the campaign is over. We're going to be ridiculed for this. But actually, people loved it.
00:35:49
Speaker
And from then on, it gave me confidence to do more opportunities like that, like water skiing and and skiing itself and and visiting alpacas.
00:36:00
Speaker
All sorts of things that we did. In fact, it all started kind of in Dunferno, where we would do and a bit of abseiling. and We did a visit to the Animal Rescue Centre for the SPCA, where I was holding a hedgehog.
00:36:17
Speaker
and And so we'd kind of started at that point. And the photo op, just on the eve of poll that got on the front page of all the newspapers,
00:36:28
Speaker
was me with Nicol Stephen, the leader of the party at that point, at the top of the fourth rail bridge, the fourth bridge, with a tremendous view. It was clear February day, freezing cold, a clear February day.
00:36:43
Speaker
And that was on all the front pages of the newspapers. And that gave us the final edge and to secure victory. Oh, that's quite interesting. and And it's interesting seeing, obviously, how that strategy was used to great effect to in the 2024 election yeah yeah and by the Liberal Democrats. But it's interesting to see a bit about you know where it came from and and yeah just some of the things that you've been up to as part of those bids.
00:37:13
Speaker
i mean I think the what I learned through doing those was that you it shows that politicians are human. A smile on your face cuts through an awful lot of pomposity sometimes in politics.
00:37:28
Speaker
and But the final thing is that when you're doing your interview afterwards about the issues of policy or the campaign, you're always deadly serious because politics is a serious business.
00:37:42
Speaker
And that's the rule I always applied that I never tried to joke around when I was doing the interviews. I would always be deadly serious and answer the questions. and But that doesn't mean the photos can't be a bit more colourful.
00:37:57
Speaker
Excellent. Well, Thank you very much for joining me today, Willie. I really enjoyed listening to what you've had to say, and I'm sure our listeners will have done too. Thank you. Thanks, Matt.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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