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EP20 Daniel Cheng: The Business Of Creative Industries
58 Plays4 months ago
Recently selected as Campaign Asia’s 40 Under 40, Daniel Cheng has been a pioneer in Shanghai’s advertising scene for the past 15 years. In 2013, upon leaving his brand management role at LVMH, Daniel started Metric Design Studio (MDS). Today, MDS has served over 200 clients, including the likes of fashion powerhouses MaxMara to luxury hospitality chains Shangri-La Hotels, to the pharmaceutical giant Bayer.
In 2021, Daniel co-founded Mimosa Productions, a production studio focused on Asian-led content, which produced two projects that placed as finalists at the Asia TV Forum & Market (ATF) IP Accelerator in 2022 and 2023. Daniel holds an MBA with Merit from Imperial College Business School in London, a BSc from the University of Massachusetts Amherst, and a Fulbright Scholarship.
Timestamps
(00:00:00) Introduction
(00:01:48) Early Career and Move to China
(00:09:28) Founding A Creative Agency
(00:23:41) MDS Collective And Pivot To Tourism
(00:54:17) Trends in Chinese Tourism
(01:07:35) The Future of Filmmaking and AI
(01:18:58) Closing Question - Kindest Thing Someone Has Done
Disclaimer: This podcast is an independent personal project and is not affiliated with or endorsed by any employer or organization. All views expressed are solely those of the host and guests. The content is for information and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, legal, tax, or professional advice. The host, guests, and associated parties assume no liability for any actions taken based on this content.
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Transcript
Introduction to Daniel Cheng
00:00:00
Speaker
Today our guest, Daniel Cheng, is an a award-winning founder, designer, producer who built one of Shanghai's most successful marketing agencies, delivered campaigns for over 200 global brands, and is now pushing Asian stories onto the world stage through film.
Entrepreneurship Journey in China
00:00:18
Speaker
To lay out the agenda for today, we will hear about his entrepreneurship journey in China while learning about the business side of creative industries, like marketing and film. Before we dive in, Daniel, can you briefly introduce yourself to us and tell us maybe some fun facts about yourself? Thank you, Mick, for having me on this podcast. Thank Yeah, um so my name is Daniel Chang. I was born and raised in Boston. And at the ripe age of 20, I moved to Shanghai, China.
00:00:51
Speaker
I got this opportunity through a Fulbright scholarship by the U.S. Department of Education. I was only supposed to be there for about six months, and I ended up staying for 16 years.
00:01:02
Speaker
So it's it's been quite a journey. I only recently moved to Singapore just two years ago. And
00:01:13
Speaker
I have a lot to share.
From Corporate to Freelance: The Transition
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. i um I mean, I don't know how many viewers are in the marketing creative industries, but you're kind of a public figure now with IMDB profile and all the...
00:01:33
Speaker
um panel speeches at various events. um So, I mean, let's probably roll back the tape a bit further than coming to Singapore. And before that, you spent a long time in China.
00:01:52
Speaker
um what I mean, I guess you so you said what brought you there initially, but what made you to stay and how did you start your business? Can you give us a more stories about Yeah, so after graduating, I worked in various marketing and design roles around the city, mostly for smaller companies.
00:02:10
Speaker
um Super interesting stuff, everything from a retail company focused um on felt products ah to um bringing over, um at the time, the top apple cider hard apple cider company.
Building a Business: Challenges and Growth
00:02:25
Speaker
uh in the world um to basically spread that product across china i think we were a little bit ahead of the curve back then and then ultimately landed um a brand management role for lvmh and so i did that for a little bit and realized i very much disliked both french luxury and chinese corporate culture combined i think it was a very challenging environment to thrive in And so that kind of gave me the um the the motivation I needed to pursue an entrepreneurial journey at the age of 26.
00:03:04
Speaker
Was this what you always wanted to do as a kid? Did you come from a um marketing family? i don't know. Did your parents have a big influence on you? Honestly, no um i I never really had a lot of dreams to be anything um worthwhile as a kid. and I think that was part of the issue was that, yeah, i worked hard, I got good grades in school, but um I think it's it's really hard to pinpoint exactly what you want to do, especially at the age of 18 when you're supposed to like declare a major and everything.
00:03:41
Speaker
um So I actually ended up declaring a very flexible major, which you know as an entrepreneur is actually not a bad thing. right you know I ended up majoring in environmental design, which you know it leads to a number of different career paths, but it's nothing that is that that so let us solidifies you into like a single and single box, yeah so to speak.
00:04:05
Speaker
And after you quit your job in China, did you have something lined up already? Did you have a partner? did you get started after? Yeah, so i I was actually freelancing on the side, which is very much frowned upon, I think. But i was freelancing off hours, not during work hours.
00:04:23
Speaker
And it was ah i I remember um what gave me the motivation to quit was when my freelancing um revenue matched my monthly salary. at LVMH and when it hit that number, i was like, okay, I have to like cushion now, you know, I can i can quit and it's totally fine.
Networking and Freelancing in China
00:04:45
Speaker
And then when I managed to double that number, i got my first staff and i remember this basically this intern kid was working out of my apartment.
00:04:56
Speaker
And then when I tripled that, I got an office and then started hiring. um But if I was to do it all over again, absolutely not. That's the incorrect way to to run a business. to To really build it that organically is is very, very slow.
00:05:12
Speaker
um If I was to do it over again, I would have brought brought on a partner right off the bat, a co-founder. I would have raised capital. um And I would have grown and scaled this 10 times faster.
00:05:25
Speaker
But, you know, at 26, it is really challenging to run a business because there's only so much you know. yeah right and and And we're talking 2013.
00:05:37
Speaker
twenty twenty thirteen So, you know, no no AI resources. like It was just really difficult. Yeah. And you didn't grow up in China, so you didn't have the networks. No, I didn't have the network. But I mean, I would say that's probably one of my strong suits is actually building a network, and um especially in in in places you that are not my comfort zone, so to speak.
00:06:05
Speaker
um Define freelancing. What were you doing exactly at the time? How did you make money charge clients? i Oh, man. um I was doing various graphic design and web development um projects. So I remember my first project was with this like Italian trattoria on Jululu in Shanghai and um and ended up you know designing their menu, designing their logo, um and really just working with the you know the owner of the cafe.
00:06:42
Speaker
um And then I slowly started building more and more um clients from there. it It was actually a lot of fun, especially because it wasn't like I was depending on this money to to survive.
00:06:55
Speaker
and And lots of lessons learned during those few first few years. But you know I would take any project that I could get, anything that was marketing, branding, design related, i would i would more or less take on, which also is not a great way to you know expand a business. I do believe you need to focus, but when when you're young and when you're starting out, you know one of the greatest assets is um is time.
00:07:23
Speaker
like like All you have is time. So you can you can pour your heart into these projects. And it shows, I think. um like the The thing I have the least amount of now is time. And so you know i would never be able to like personally take on a project like that. because i i just I wouldn't be able to commit the amount of resources necessary to do a good job. i Obviously, I have staff now and stuff, but like like I still hear about like some some founders who you know take design projects on because they're they're you know always trying to hone their craft.
00:07:58
Speaker
I don't know how they do it. Yeah. Where did you pick up those skills? Was it in school as part of your environment engineering curriculum? No. I mean, I learned like some basic like ah Adobe suite design suite um ah software skills, but I didn't fully study like design aesthetics or or you know true graphic design so or or even web development for that matter. So all of that i picked up on the fly. So I was literally coding websites
00:08:30
Speaker
um and designing them at the same time, which I thought you know that was like a superpower. you know like like i combined both the the the knowledge of of coding plus um you know having strong design skills and um and then a layer of branding on top, and that's how I was pitching.
00:08:48
Speaker
but you know In retrospect, it's like, that's so silly. you know it like I could have easily outsourced that that work. But the coding part? The coding part, I mean, the design part, and the marketing part, all of it, right? It is so hard to scale when you're trying to do everything yourself. um But I would say that that gave me a good foundation as to, you know, it gave me an understanding of exactly what I was trying to build in my company and the type of people
Cultural Insights and Education in China
00:09:16
Speaker
I needed to hire. And I understood the work that was that was being done.
00:09:20
Speaker
I just, um you know, looking back, there's there's so many things I would have done differently. Were you um a unique um talent at the time in mainland China as an overseas-born Chinese that have exposure to, i guess, the Western culture, the Western business mindset, but also the the Internet culture?
00:09:48
Speaker
Did you feel like, was that one of the reasons you were able to succeed? I think that's actually probably my... My lamest, ah but also one of my greatest superpowers is that, yes, I was like kind of right place at the right time.
00:10:03
Speaker
um i was able to kind of take this Western mindset, um but then apply it to you know Chinese culture or or traditions or you know understanding what the client needed. The internet was booming, right, at the time, or was Yeah, um I mean, like, like Weibo culture, you know, yeah like like the the Twitter stuff that think that was that was hot back then. um But really, it was the fact that, you know, I was Western um educated and trained. but applying these skills in a in a non-Western market. um
00:10:39
Speaker
And I think that's you know that that was at the time what a lot of Chinese companies, brands, um small businesses were looking for, was that like elevation um from from the norm.
00:10:52
Speaker
and um Yeah, i mean it it was a great source of of revenue at the time, but I don't think you could just apply that today. you know the The Chinese design aesthetics is actually getting pretty good, um and like the the the branding and and all of that is is far better than it was back in the early two thousand and ten s Yeah, I guess what I had in mind when I asked the question was about the difference in the education system.
00:11:21
Speaker
You know, the that talk on the street, everybody knows is in Asian cultures, we don't teach about creativity. Whereas in Western culture, it's all about critical thinking, um think outside the box, challenge authority.
00:11:36
Speaker
Do you think that the education was what evolved in China over the time? um that accelerated this evolution of the creative industries?
00:11:48
Speaker
Or in your mind, why and how did they catch up yeah I mean, I totally agree with you. I think fundamentally there's a lot of, especially when it comes to the creative arm of education in China, it's, it's you know, some of the graphic designers that we're hiring these days, like, yeah, they're good at with the software, but they don't actually have that taste that, you know, can be developed over time. ah But it's it's really the exposure to it. I would say, you know to can't to kind of answer that question, is it's really about the access nowadays. It's so easy to get inspiration and and to and to find you know like an an artist or or designer that you really love and just like glean their their um styles. Whereas I think before, the access was quite limited. um you know
00:12:37
Speaker
We didn't have a lot of the platforms that we do now for for young people to to grab that inspiration. But I think nowadays, it's... you know the world is more interconnected than ever. There's there's really no excuse. If if you're going into the creative field, and there's no excuse not to be creative with all the tools that are readily available now, you know regardless of whether you were um Western educated or or educated and in China or anywhere else.
00:13:11
Speaker
Did you find that as a challenge to growing your business initially in terms of recruiting the right talent with the right training and the right taste? I think so. So the company now is 25 people.
00:13:25
Speaker
um and And I've been running it for 13 years now. So if you asked me 13 years ago, you know, how big will you guys be in 10 years? would have been like 100 But... but That's that's its far easier said than done. It's it's it's so much more difficult to to scale a business. And so we're kind of at this inflection point where, yes, um you know one of the greatest challenges is finding strong talent. you know to To be frank, like we're not hiring HBS grads. you know We're not hiring Stanford Business School grads. like
00:14:01
Speaker
the The reason why we have a production house in China is obviously to take advantage of the wage disparity, especially when we're working with Western clients, right? And so even if I was hire company top tier um graduates. I think, you know, i've I've worked with, you know, we've hired graduates from like Fudan University. We've hired graduates from Shanghai Jiao Tong University and the same problem across the board. it's It's really not about how hard you can study or or how, you know, how how rigorous your curriculum is, you know. in the creative field, it's, it's it's there's like a layer of like passion
00:14:51
Speaker
that that is that is required um and there's this like spark that is that is needed. um and if And if that's not there, then it does become very challenging. So yeah, I think every business owner that I that i interact with, hiring is always, always the challenge.
00:15:11
Speaker
um And I think we're getting better at it. you know At year 13, we finally found like what what I think is the the secret recipe that that makes us that makes our company kind of very competitive is that we're able to retain the people that we we bring in because you
Work Culture and Talent Retention
00:15:31
Speaker
know we we offer above market rates. um We have spent a lot of time investing into building a strong work culture.
00:15:40
Speaker
and And I think a lot of Chinese companies can't compete on that because they don't spend that time. you know they they They pay market or below market rate. They don't invest in work culture. and then i mean, it's the opposite, right? It's like 996, like Jojo Alito.
00:15:55
Speaker
And that that's yeah that's a whole other discussion altogether. What do you mean by investing the work culture? I think it's... it's
00:16:09
Speaker
If you were to work for a Chinese company, for instance, and you know, a big, um maybe ah maybe a tech company, right? ah The culture there that they've developed, and and I don't think they can get out of it, right? Because, um you know, it's part of the reason why Chinese tech is so strong is because of this work culture. So, you know, it goes both ways, right? But it doesn't necessarily mean that a it's sustainable and B, people are happy in that environment.
00:16:37
Speaker
so So it's like a sink or swim mentality. But you know to to really push people to work that hard and and you know the the ones that are going to burn out, we don't want.
00:16:48
Speaker
right We only want the ones that can survive and that can thrive in this competitive environment. um i don't I don't really believe in that. I do believe in a work-life balance.
00:16:59
Speaker
None of our staff really does OT. And when clients hear that, they sometimes get a little bit worried. They're like, wait, you guys you guys don't do OT? What if we need something? I'm like, you're not going to need something because we're very organized and we deliver on time. And if you deliver on time, there's really, you know, like we yeah we get our work done. um So everybody at our company enjoys like pretty um good hours. I would say the only excuse is, you know if if there is anybody doing OTE, it's because they didn't finish their work during the day. But you know it's it's very manageable, and we don't encourage that type of behavior. um you know You've heard of like companies where you know you have like ah junior staff showing up before their boss yeah and then staying late until after the boss leaves, right? yeah But I think you know like really by 6 p.m., productivity is cut like like exponentially from 10 a.m. Anything after 6 p.m.,
00:17:59
Speaker
you know any anything after six like there the output is is just not worth it for the amount of, you know, kind of long-term stress that you're causing the employee. And, and you know, you never know. They could be, like, like building resentment towards you. um So just it's a convoluted way of saying this this whole this whole thing about, like, work culture. um when When I say we we really don't encourage it,
00:18:26
Speaker
um You know, that that speaks that speaks multitudes compared to some you know Chinese yeah corporates where, no, this is the norm.
00:18:38
Speaker
The norm is you put in 12 hours a day. um and and you And the norm is you're going to put in half a day on a weekend. Like, why?
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah. um Just speaking more on the challenge in finding the right talent, what differentiates your hires, recruits from others who didn't make the cut?
00:19:04
Speaker
You you so spoke about passion. You spoke about university credentials, probably matter of less. ah But what do you see in them that...
00:19:15
Speaker
you can have a good sense that they will be successful in the future. So one of the metrics that we hire for is really loyalty.
00:19:28
Speaker
um And I've found that that is one of the strongest... hiring factors that that we look out for is how long is this person going to be here? Because I can hire top tier graduate, I have, um but they don't stay more than two years, right? So yeah, okay, maybe we get some good output from from them on a project, but then in two years, they're going to bounce to a bigger agency. And and you know that's not something we can control. Like we are, Alton's considered a small to, I don't even know if we're considered midsize,
00:20:02
Speaker
agency and so there's always more um optically uh prestigious agencies to work for or you go brand side whatever but you're always fighting that challenge where you know i've invested a lot of time into some of these people and then you know they they go to a different company and they take that skill set with them and so it's From a kind of like human resources standpoint, it's a bad ah ROI.
00:20:30
Speaker
So one of the things that we try to hire for is, like okay, well, what is the long-term loyalty? Because you know there are opportunities in our company where they you know people grow from account executive to account manager to account director. like like There is a pathway there. there and and and people have um have grown with us over know over the years we we we have staff that have stayed for five six seven years you know and beyond that um it's it's less about you know the um
00:21:08
Speaker
like I'm not hiring McKinsey-level talent. I don't want to make that very clear. But I think that there's a layer below that where, okay, McKinsey-level talent, but what about the people right below that?
00:21:23
Speaker
like that's I think that's like a nice sweet spot where they're still ambitious and they're still they're still smart people. um and you can get them for ah for, you know, at an affordable rate.
00:21:37
Speaker
um And I think... And convince them to stay longer with you. And convince them to stay longer. But, you know, if there's only so many spots at McKinsey, right? yeah And if you didn't make the cut, um we are here for you. Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker
those but but But seriously, it's there's um I think there is this like sweet sweet spot where yeah we are getting some pretty good talent. It's just um it's not top, top tier.
00:22:04
Speaker
But that's great you know because because in in in exchange, there's there's good loyalty there. um there's There's passion and there's this desire for growth as well. And how do you assess loyalty from someone who doesn't have a track record like a fresh university grad? We try not to hire too fresh. um Actually, we oftentimes, like if we do have interns,
00:22:27
Speaker
um lots of the interns that we've worked with, with actually um we hire them full-time, and then you know they've been with us, and they've gone through the gauntlet in our company, and they actually thrive. um you know so
00:22:45
Speaker
when we do hire fresh grads, it's almost no different than hiring an intern. Like that one extra year doesn't make a difference. And we we would much rather them have gone through the internship program as opposed to starting a fresh grad. And like, like a lot of these fresh grads these days are, um, so reliant on AI that it's actually kind of scary. I don't want to talk too much about it, but it is, um,
00:23:13
Speaker
It is like like they they they need it. They can't write an email without it. yeah And it's it's very scary. yeah um I mean, we spoke a lot about your learnings, reflections, POV from an entrepreneur, CEO standpoint. Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
I think we need some more background information. So why don't you tell us about what is MDS?
Niche Focus in Hospitality and Travel
00:23:41
Speaker
what How does the industry work? How do you guys make money? Oh, yeah. I should probably mention that. So my company is called MDS Collective. um It formerly was known as Metric Design Studio, but we don't really do too much design anymore.
00:23:56
Speaker
Founded 2013 in Shanghai. But now we have offices in Singapore and Shanghai and soon um likely Abu Dhabi as well. ah We have, i think in 2021 was, we pivoted to solely focusing on hospitality, tourism and travel.
00:24:15
Speaker
um So now we primarily work with um hotels and airlines and tourism boards who are looking to target the mainland Chinese market, specifically the outbound tourists.
00:24:29
Speaker
um China has the biggest outbound tourism market in the world. It's 155 million trips and and in 2025 alone.
00:24:41
Speaker
um And they have a very high propensity to spend when they're abroad as well. so That is the kind of niche that we focus on. um I have over 40 or 50 clients um in that space. so And then soon we're going to be doing the same thing, but also for South Korean and Japanese tourists as well, because all three of those markets share the same complexities or challenges, rather. um Language is obviously a big challenge for a lot of these tourists. the command of English is not necessarily that great.
00:25:18
Speaker
um There's the cultural differences, and then there's also the platform differences, right? the The kind of... The apps they use. The apps they use and also the the behavior of of how they make their decisions when it comes to travel or even shopping for that matter is is very different from how a lot of our clients are are used to doing their marketing.
00:25:41
Speaker
So we aim to kind of bridge that gap. um And it's been very, very successful. Our our company has grown. i think we've tripled in the past two years um just because we've started focusing on that niche. And and that's just you know one thing that I would actually say to any potential entrepreneurs that are listening um is it's really, really helpful to kind of focus into a niche because we can now be the best in our industry. Whereas, you know, how do you become the best design agency, you know, on the planet? It's it's so subjective and it's so so difficult because you have to cover so many different industries. But now, you know, we're so focused on these industries that...
00:26:27
Speaker
our Our team is able to build this expertise and this skill set and we're able to replicate a lot of this work. So um I think ultimately it's it's about it's about the predictability in terms of um the types of challenges that we'll run into. And if you're able to mitigate a lot of that, it's so much easier to scale.
00:26:51
Speaker
How much overlap were there from being a design agency to kind of a travel tourism focused creative agency?
00:27:02
Speaker
And what did you have to do to pivot the business, the talent, the client, the product, everything? Yeah, um it took a lot of time to refine our product.
00:27:14
Speaker
But i mean, overall, the skill set the same, right? We've always had marketing people. We've always had designers. um We've always had project managers and strategists. It's just everybody had to kind of um start to, you know, develop. I would say all all of the people that work for us, you know, they all have, ah like, young people have a passion for travel, right? um And it's just, okay, yeah, you have a passion for travel, but... Now you have to look at it with a commercial lens and understand the trends that are happening to the industry and understand, um you know, what what content creators and influencers, what they're gravitating towards. um there's There's consumer habits and and just to pay more attention to that. And that took a few years for us to kind of get our groove. We also started to like winning awards in the in the industry as well, um specifically for that um that travel
Revenue Model: Retainers and Stability
00:28:09
Speaker
niche. um And then i started speaking more and more at like different travel conferences you know for i thought leadership, but also just to like expand my network.
00:28:18
Speaker
And as you probably know, I can talk forever. um but yeah it it definitely was a challenge to to pivot but it was a good i mean i think it was very welcomed because now everybody's aligned whereas before like we were servicing cosmetics we were servicing the auto industry and um we we had uh pharma companies like all of those companies all of those verticals and industries like they all have their own unique set of challenges it's really really difficult to be the best if you're so you're spread so thin
00:28:51
Speaker
And so that that was a major learning. And that was also coming out of COVID as well. So um I had to figure out a more stable way to generate revenue.
00:29:02
Speaker
um Like pre-COVID, we were like 95% product-based. Now where we're over 90% retainer-based. So even like our accountant, like all the cash flow is very predictable. And um and it's it's far more stable of a business than it was before.
00:29:20
Speaker
You lose less hair, you lose less sleep. Yeah, sure. Yeah. What did you see in 2021 that made you to pick that niche out of all that you could choose?
00:29:34
Speaker
Our first major tourism board client was actually an overseas um ah medical tourism board. um So they were trying to attract more Chinese medical tourists. And that was a very, very interesting project. And we worked with them for three years. um And then we started signing some hotel clients um just because it was like social media related, right? Mm-hmm.
00:30:02
Speaker
um And I started seeing, like oh my gosh, this is actually pretty lucrative um in the sense that we have like retainer clients and and if you kind of offer a solid service, they're probably going to sign again. like This is awesome.
00:30:19
Speaker
um I never wanted to be known as a social media agency. you know i as like The designer in me was was always... um i I was like obsessed with design, but now I'm like, wait a second. Let's figure out how ah algorithms work, how platforms work, how do we game the system. Exactly. um And it's it's far more exciting of a of a specialty to have now than than just the broad term of design. i honestly think like to be a pure design consultancy is... It's it's really, really hard you know with with all the tools that are available now. It's it's so competitive. like like I would never start a design agency again knowing what I know now.
00:31:07
Speaker
And when you say retainers, recurring revenue, does it mean they pay you regularly for you to create some product online on the frequency, like monthly, biweekly, on social media? or Yeah, exactly. it's um ah like Our projects used to be like three or four months. you know There's a clear start, there's a clear finish. yeah um But now these contracts are 12-month contracts um where there's a beginning and then in the most ideal sense, there is no end. so all of you know Because we're always constantly involving our product and um trying to make it better. you know My goal is to actually be the number one um hospitality marketing company in East Asia. And we're probably on track. I would say the product that we have now is probably the best in across mainland China.
00:32:02
Speaker
um because I truly believe with every bone in my body that nobody has spent more time thinking about Chinese outbound hospitality than I have. um Just like the sheer amount of brain power that I've i've sunk into it. um But it also reflects in in in the work and we have like a 65 page ah SOP um in in terms of how we view and and um operate our products. I don't even remember what the original question was. Sorry. It's okay. I forgot as well. um
00:32:39
Speaker
so Oh, right. Sorry. 12-month contracts. And because it's um it's very predictable revenue and because our product is always getting better, yeah it's almost like a SaaS model where once they're in, you know yeah you want to reduce the churn as much as possible. yeah We have, I think right now, like something like an 8% churn.
00:32:59
Speaker
And that's decreasing. I mean, I'm already pretty proud of that. But um you know my goal is to get it down to 2% because our product is is pretty good. What do you mean by the product?
00:33:10
Speaker
um so the So the service is, I view it as a product because, you know, it's I view it very similar to how um you would view like a SaaS model because it is kind of a subscription in that it's, you know, clients pay on a monthly or quarterly basis. um and we're working on it as if we're working on like an app, for instance, and constantly you know fixing it and improving it and releasing you know version one, version two. no um So there is that level. um I don't really call it a service because it's it's i believe it far extends beyond just a service. you know we We do so much for our clients and there's also just like layers upon layers of just development that goes into it that it's probably more similar to a product than a service at this point.
00:34:02
Speaker
So if we drill down to the specifics, do you like run their Red Note accounts? Do you build their proprietary apps within the WeChat?
00:34:13
Speaker
um What are the range of stuff you do? Yeah, so so it might sound like we're a social media agency because, you know, we operate the Red Note account. And that, you know, sure, we do. um But we also operate their five-star customer service. We also operate their...
00:34:33
Speaker
ah beyond their social platforms, um some of their um other digital assets. We run their ad strategy.
00:34:45
Speaker
We protect their brand reputation. um We protect their AI geo as well. So like when when AI picks up on the reputation of the the airline or the country or or the property that we're working with, we have ways to refine that and then to help it rank higher and higher because we severely focus on the top of the funnel stuff. So awareness is really the the thing that we're trying to, um the attention that we're trying to um gather from from tourists.
00:35:20
Speaker
um And then beyond that, there's like this, you know, like all these like digital assets that we build for them. um And then there's a ah layer of offline work that we do for them as well so that it's all connected together.
Achieving Recognition and Market Impact
00:35:33
Speaker
um And ideally, you know, there's still some work to be done, but the entire pathway from when a guest the or potential guest, potential traveler um discovers this country property or airline, you know, we follow them the whole way um all the way to when they book and then there's an after sales component as well so that we can really track the the success of um our work.
00:36:03
Speaker
So for single contract for three to four months, that type of contract, you will have a very clear finished product. You would have clear KPIs. But for a monthly recurring contract, like a retainer fee, is the work kind of also in that sense is recurring, is kind of repetitive month by month or?
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah, so there's there's a layer of repetitive work, obviously, um but there's also a lot of stuff that we do that is um like very unique. For instance, there's there's we run basically quarterly campaigns, and then every property or every airline has a different type of campaign that they want to run. um So there's like unique challenges in that.
00:36:48
Speaker
And then there's, yes, there are like a lot of predictable things um and a lot of things that we do that is repeatable. So, and that's a good thing, I would say from ah from a, from an operation standpoint, it's, it's good to have that predictable work because predictable work leads to predictable problems. Or predictable successes. And um it's when we we pick up clients that are out of this predictable zone, and that's that's when it requires more time from the staff, and and maybe they don't have like the right skill set for it, then we have to outsource it, and then we're project managing the the outsourced vendor and then we inherit all these risks that is honestly just not worth it. you know um I'm starting to learn this, whereas if you asked me this same question eight years ago, like I would have literally picked up any project that came our way um if it was marketing design or digital related. But now that we've you know like I keep coming to this aspect of it being a product,
00:37:50
Speaker
um We're really trying to you specialize and that that's the beauty of it. is Once you do, you know everything is, like the flow of of running a business is so much more so much more simple.
00:38:07
Speaker
What are some of the most proudest products or achievements, campaigns you've run the last two years? um I would say the proudest achievement for our company was winning the campaign boutique agency of the year award, um gold nonetheless, um that we celebrated in the beginning of December. And that was that was awesome, you know, um to not only to win that award but to win it in gold. It's kind of a...
00:38:37
Speaker
recognition of all the hard work that I've i've put in. Is that like the the Oscars, the Grammys of the creative industry? so in the marketing industry, like Campaign Asia is very well respected.
00:38:49
Speaker
Maybe similar to like a Forbes yeah um in in our industry. and And personally, I was on the also the Campaign Asia 40 under 40 list. So that was a proud achievement.
00:39:01
Speaker
Were nominated by some clients or how did they decide? Is it because of campaign products? I don't remember how I was nominated, but once I was nominated, there was this like application process that we had to do.
00:39:19
Speaker
um And then we we we went through that entire gauntlet. I think the first year i was nominated by a client. Yeah. The first year we applied, ah was because a client was like, Hey, you should, you know I'll nominate you for this. was Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much.
00:39:35
Speaker
Um, but I wasn't selected that year. And so then it was on my radar and I was like a little bit upset and I was like, no, I'm going to win it this year. So we have applied again a second year, um, and got selected for that.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah. Congrats. Thank you. And, um, Very happy the work you put out throughout so so many years got a recognition. Yeah, no, it's been great. skill we've We've done some campaigns for like the Malaysian government um and and filmed some really interesting commercials for them. um Kind of talking about some really difficult to talk about subjects. That I think that also brought some pretty good recognition. that That's also, like some of those campaigns have won awards.
00:40:20
Speaker
um specifically talking about like fertility and and the stigma associated with like IVF. and So that's separate from the Chinese outbound traveling um for their medical tourism? It is outbound. Yeah, it's it's outbound targeted, and the commercials were filmed in China for a Chinese audience, but promoting their overseas services.
00:40:41
Speaker
Got it. Yeah, that's a huge market, actually. a Massive, massive. You know, like... Because not only are you competing with South Korea, you're competing with Thailand and, you know, the service level of, um you know, the technology in South Korea is like unparalleled, you know, when it comes to um overseas medical stuff. And then you have Thailand and the service there is unbelievable. You know, when you are actually a medical tourist and and you you go through their program, um it is it is really, really competitive. And so Malaysia had to try to find its edge. um
00:41:20
Speaker
and ah And I think some of the the ways that we're relating to these potential, um I'm sorry, I keep saying potential, but relating to the audience is is one that I think we did far better than than what Thailand did that year.
00:41:35
Speaker
um so I'm pretty proud of that. Sounds like from what I'm hearing, a big part of your job is also to helping your client to craft that identity in front of the audience, present their, how do they differentiate themselves?
00:41:53
Speaker
What are their special niche in a sense to offer? Yeah, absolutely. um And that's only one part of the issue, right? is you could you could You could film the most compelling commercial yeah and and it and it and it can really just like you know make make people cry and it and can really like you know hit some nerves in people. but what if nobody sees it, right? Like the ah the awareness and in the overall kind of like ad strategy is also equally as important, right?
00:42:29
Speaker
And I think a lot of marketers kind of overlook that. It's like they they focus a little bit too much on the creative and then, Okay, yeah, what are we going to do? Oh, we're going put it on YouTube and take some ads out on it.
00:42:40
Speaker
Okay, that's not enough in 2026. Sounds very lazy. Yeah, it's like, oh, we'll put some ad dollars on it on Shaohongshu. Yeah, that's not enough. You know, that's only going to do so much. What happens when you run out of money than you run out of impressions? and you know that that's That's not going to make a lasting impact. you know um There's far better ways to do um my kind of organic marketing these days.
Advertising Strategies and Audience Engagement
00:43:06
Speaker
that I think it's what still yeah like excites me and and keeps me passionate for the industry is is you know figuring out ways to um work around creative ways to work with some of sometimes very challenging budgets to work with.
00:43:27
Speaker
So, well, let's delve deeper, more more deeper into that. what What does the MDS grade ad strategy look like?
00:43:40
Speaker
How do you go above and beyond from just spending ad dollars on YouTube, Red Note? What are some questions you have to think about? How do you go to in another level? Yeah, I think it's really truly understanding the audience, right? So if we're just looking at a peer ad strategy, you know, who is our target audience, right? So everyone knows the TA. a Okay, so, you know, we're targeting 27-year-old females.
00:44:09
Speaker
first-tier cities across China great so is everybody else you know everybody wants that same exact demographic oh they like travel so does everybody else you know like like it's it's okay it's you know diving 10 layers deeper than that you know what are the nuances what are the what are the communities and tribes that these people are in And how do we target those instead? Because that's probably going to ah yield a far better catch than than just throwing your net in the ocean and trying to just pick up some fish, right? um
00:44:45
Speaker
we We publish these trend reports on a quarterly basis because we, you know, and and it's also an exercise for our team is to better understand the exact person that we're trying to target. um And you know this person, XYZ,
00:45:02
Speaker
makes this much money, typically is interested in this, and um and here is her behavior or here is his behavior when they do go travel. And then diving into that market and that niche and that community and then targeting there. So it's like very, very nuanced because it's always evolving. It's always changing. um The platform can only do so much.
00:45:30
Speaker
But when you know that, then I think it's actually an advantage. Okay, well, i can I can kind of target certain people, but then how do I go a layer deeper than that? and So that's kind of the the secret power that we have is we can get a few more layers deeper. um And one of the big you know components of of the business is working with content creators and influencers. And I and i truly believe that that is um that is the future, and it and it has been the future um on social media platforms, but it's even it's more important than ever especially in in the age of there being so much AI, what do they call it, AI slosh? Just like, you know, like, is this human content or is it just like some some AI content that is trying to just get some eyeballs, right? And so the more people that adopt that, there's actually a greater need to just have authentic, you know, experiences being showcased and...
00:46:32
Speaker
Part of the other reason why I went into this industry is because I like to say it's AI proof. you know A hotel will never use an AI generated image to showcase their property because your expectation always needs to meet reality. When the traveler arrives in the lobby, then the lobby needs to look like the lobby that you're showing on your website. It can never...
00:46:57
Speaker
you know be any more grand than that um and i think it's the same thing for for tourism boards they're always going to shoot you know that beautiful mountain that they have in uh you know next to their city or they're going to shoot their nightlife exactly like what it looks like so that when the traveler does arrive it is what they're um what they're seeing so Yeah, it's... um It sounds like you do spend a lot of time thinking from the TA's standpoint and trying to segment them into different baskets and what could be the best way to persuade them, right? It's a lot of psychology, a lot of sociology-related
00:47:46
Speaker
skill sets and knowledge. Sure. Yeah, there there is a big component of social sciences yeah involved in this. um And I think that's that's also very exciting. Right. These things are all ever changing. Yeah. Like trends. You can boil it down to that as well.
00:48:03
Speaker
But it yeah, that that is um a big, big portion of that. How does big data play a role in
Understanding Traveler Behavior and Expectations
00:48:12
Speaker
this? Do you have proprietary surveys, data analytics, or do the platforms, I guess, generate these for you?
00:48:21
Speaker
I actually, it's funny, right? Because like big data, It's like almost like double-edged sword because you know the platforms do generate some of these reports, but everything from like their monthly average, the MAU, monthly average users, um you know you can trust that because they published it, but do you really trust it? like Are there really that many users still using Weibo?
00:48:52
Speaker
Because when I go on Weibo, it's just bots, right? You know, like when we work with like some of these influencers and they're like, oh, yeah, I have I have ah eight million followers on Weibo, but I only have 2500 on on Red Note.
00:49:09
Speaker
I'm like, all right. You know, i can kind of, yeah you know, read between the lines. um so so obviously there's the big data that and that the platforms publish which we take with a grain of salt um and then there's actually like because of of like economies of scale and and how we manage our business we actually have like over 10 000 data points that we we can reference now because we've been doing this and specialize in this for so long and that number is only going to grow like yes 10 000 doesn't sound like a lot but like
00:49:41
Speaker
when you run that through, um AI software or whatever to to generate a dashboard and to generate trends from it. Like it's really, really interesting. um And that's some of the stuff that we are doing is, you know, we have data points and it's, it's it wasn't, this wouldn't be possible if we didn't specialize, you know? um But now that we do, we can actually draw our own proprietary trends, whereas before we wouldn't be able to.
00:50:16
Speaker
And what do these data look like? They tell you about is this like the a KPIs? Did the ad generate any traction, less certain monetize, or is it about the deeper user profile behaviors?
00:50:34
Speaker
I would say it's probably from a 35,000 feet um overall trends and and behavior of some of these travelers. But it's it's interesting. First, okay, so I'll just use the the hotel industry as an example.
00:50:50
Speaker
ah The first insight that we've gathered is is more money, more problems. So the higher cost the hotel is, the more issues we deal with.
00:51:03
Speaker
And that's because when we operate these accounts, you know, like to stay to stay three nights at the Bulgari hotel, like that is the price of a Bulgari bag, you know, like a handbag. It is not cheap.
00:51:17
Speaker
um And so when when people do make that investment, this a small investment really, um they're expecting to get not five-star service, like seven-star service. yeah And when the hotel is at 95% occupancy, you're not getting seven-star service. It's just impossible. yeah you know Okay, the hotel is a quarter full. Yeah, that the the butler is going to be super nice to you and on top of everything, and and the the front desk staff is going to anticipate all your needs. like
00:51:52
Speaker
That's not reality. And the reality is when you are traveling, it could be during peak seasons, right? Because Chinese New Year, Dragon Boat, you know, national holiday, like it's your experience is going to be vastly different. And so one thing that we've noticed is Chinese travelers tend to complain on, on social media apps to us.
00:52:20
Speaker
And that's a good thing. We want them to complain to us because that means they're not necessarily going and complaining to the public. The moment that they go and complain to the public that our our reputation is damaged.
00:52:30
Speaker
um so we don't So we don't see that at some of our lower end five-star hotels. And i say lower end because five-star kind of a catch-all term, but there is like range. And...
00:52:44
Speaker
um and It really is. It comes down to, you you know, when when a consumer is spending more money, the expectation is different. And we can see that in in the the big data that we have is they are far more petty and they are far more nuanced than some of our less expensive properties that we work with.
00:53:07
Speaker
And do you offer a solution to solve that problem? Well, the first solution is that we we we we basically say to them, hey, we're so sorry you had this issue, right? So they want to be heard, right? And a lot of times, some of these ultra-wealthy travelers, they don't speak English. So they're not going to go to the front desk of the hotel and ask for the general manager to complain. you know And to ah to a lesser degree, you know Asian culture, maybe we're not so confrontational. But you give them the power of having a social media platform, right? you Everybody's a keyboard warrior. It's it's easy to to start to complain. and And the moment that they're just a little bit unhappy, we hear we we hear it.
00:53:54
Speaker
So you know some of the services that we provide is like like this crisis management is when somebody's about to explode, we want to go in and try to calm them down especially if they're like an influencer um or or somebody famous yeah you know and we deal with that a lot yeah what have you learned about Chinese travelers beyond what you shared so far on the 7 Star property yeah expectations um any interesting facts finding trends yeah observations Plenty. um I mean, overall, the industry is a little bit down um from, you know, like would say, pre-pandemic, right? A lot of it's tied to the overall health of the economy. So when China's real estate is doing well, when China's stock market is doing well, then they're spending, right? And it's not just, you know, on nice properties. It's also on nice things. know, they're spending on luxury goods. Like I said, I used to work for LVMH, right? So they're spending on that stuff. That's exactly what they're spending on. They're going out and eating at Michelin star restaurants. They're going and dropping bottles at at clubs. But the moment that real estate is hurt and the moment that the stock market is hurt, it reels back. So we're not saying that they're not staying at the Bougari Hotel. Of course they are. They're just not staying for three nights anymore.
00:55:29
Speaker
They're probably just staying for one night, going and taking those photos, posting it, and then staying at the Sheraton for the rest of the time, which is, you know, perfect. We find nothing wrong with the Sheraton. We work with Sheratons, but um maybe they're not posting as much at the Sheraton. But we do see that, right? it's um it is It is spread. um you know Just ah the average daily nights that they're staying, they you know all the hotels have this data. And the market is strong. It's just they're not, um they're not it's it's it's shorter stays. And that's that's that's a big thing. um
00:56:05
Speaker
Is it going to rebound? Absolutely. I think once the the real estate market stabilizes and the stock market bounces back, people will, you know, the confidence to spend is going to be there again.
00:56:20
Speaker
What about in terms of destinations? I think you read in the news just by being Southeast Asia about how many travelers come to Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand each year and how that changes because it's a big economic factor to every country's GDP yeah every year.
00:56:41
Speaker
So Chinese tourism dollars, do you see any trends, for example, going to the Middle East? um Where are they spending? Yeah. And then who goes where also, I guess?
00:56:56
Speaker
So there's something called MICE, which is basically um the business travelers, right? The MICE sector is very is up big for the Middle East.
00:57:06
Speaker
um And typically, it trickles down where when there's business travel, First, there's a layer of business travel that happens, and then tourism follows suit. And if business travel is strong, then tourism will likely follow. And that's what we're seeing in the Middle East. A lot of Chinese businesses are going there. like All the EV companies are doing their product launches in Dubai.
00:57:31
Speaker
And um every I would say every Chinese EV company has um a Middle East office now because it's strategically a very important market for them.
00:57:41
Speaker
And following that, there's a lot of Chinese travelers who are discovering the Middle East for the first time. They're going to Abu Dhabi. They're going to Doha. They're going to Oman. like And they're realizing, like, oh, my gosh, like this this is a whole new world. um It's safe, right? And actually, culturally, there's a lot of things that align very nicely with with mainland China that the Middle East offers, right?
00:58:06
Speaker
um is Obviously, safety is a big um aspect of it. um no recreational drugs that's another one um no gambling for now uh although dubai's uh uae's like trying to like launch a casino at some point um but there's you know strategically is's a lot of alignments that that work very nicely in in their favor and then on top of that you know there's They're working very closely. The two governments are working very closely together, regardless of which country it is in the Gulf.
00:58:38
Speaker
um There's a lot of people going there. And it's it's also on the social media side, it's great for photos, right? To be on a camel in the desert or to to go sandboarding or... I've seen so many of these photos. Yeah.
00:58:53
Speaker
it's it's It's like the great thing is you could you know it doesn't cost anything to to do a a buggy ride, right? ATVs on the desert with the ego. Exactly, with the with the Falcon. um You can easily get that photo and it's like beautiful. You can't mess up that photo because the the landscape is so beautiful. yeah um And that's just like great social media fodder. Yeah. Whereas I would say like certain, you know, ah other countries may struggle with with with that. um and and And on the flip side of it, right, is um you know for a traveler, they always have the power of choice.
00:59:30
Speaker
When I am spending four nights in Penang, that means I'm not spending four nights in ah in in Jeddah. um And that's that's also something like that our tours and broads often overlook is like, they don't need to come to your country. You need to create reasons for them to come to your country. um And yeah, so so the Middle East, like all the Gulf countries that i work with, they create reasons for Chinese tourists. I'm not even Chinese tourists. All tourists to to come and visit.
01:00:03
Speaker
Other countries um that we're like doing some street teaching consulting with, they don't know how to create those reasons. And they're like, yeah, but, you know, we still want them to come. I'm like, what what are they coming for?
01:00:16
Speaker
What do you offer that this other country doesn't?
Tourism Strategies and Competitive Destinations
01:00:20
Speaker
I can go to, you know, this other beach destination for a fraction of the price. They speak my language. They have great food. It's safe.
01:00:31
Speaker
What do you offer that they don't? And that's the problem. like you Sorry, I'm complaining a little bit about the industry. Yeah. I don't want to. That that gives you an opportunity. That's a business opportunity for you to create the niche for them. That's the idea, yeah. so there's We are we're working with some of these Southeast Asian um tourism boards.
01:00:57
Speaker
um And honestly, they're great people that we work with. And I can see that some of them are just struggling because it's an internal it's more of an internal procedure thing where It's like a big company in trying to get through all this red tape, whereas I i actually believe like the tourism board should be like governed a little bit differently, where they shouldn't have to go through red tape. They should be able to do interesting things. They should be able to you know like draw international names or artists to create reasons for people to come.
01:01:28
Speaker
they They shouldn't... It should be the most flexible arm of of the government. But oftentimes it's not. and And I think that's a problem, you know, because when you do want to increase the GDP, as you mentioned earlier, like fundamentally things need to change.
01:01:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think every year and Thailand, Malaysia, all the countries, a lot of countries, Southeast Asia, it's like a pageant contest.
01:02:00
Speaker
They come up with this campaign trying to draw the Chinese tourists, um,
01:02:07
Speaker
Every year they come with something new. ah And what do you think about that strategy? um Because at the end of the day, it's all the same thing.
01:02:18
Speaker
And it could be a different advertisement. But when you actually get there, your experience would be the same as previous year. um I mean, what i'm what I have in mind is like for Thailand, a lot of music festivals.
01:02:37
Speaker
um What else? A lot of events. Yeah. Mostly event-driven in this part of the world, like F1. I think Thailand is doing something similar for motor sports.
01:02:50
Speaker
um Yeah. And I think Philippines just lifted the visa requirement for China. So... like I mean, I would say anything on that on that global level, like, um like Thailand's doing, is it Tomorrowland?
01:03:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tomorrowland, Ultra Music Festival, so like Sokran, you know, that's that's that's appealing to a specific target niche. And that's great.
01:03:21
Speaker
And they should continue doing that, right? Like, like I know some people at TAT, the Thailand um Tourism Authority. And... The challenge that I would say that they have is not putting off on these like one off events, but it's like there's like a lot of like political instability in the Thai government. Right. Where oftentimes, you know, like people change and it's hard to kind of build like that lasting impression that you need. Whereas, you know, I don't want to compare, but like you look at like how STB, like Singapore Tourism Board here manages the country's image in tourism. It's aligned.
01:04:01
Speaker
Like there's a level of alignment there where, um you know, Thailand, if you constantly just put on EDM festivals, like it is a party place. But a lot of the the stuff that Thailand wants to do is is actually not necessarily that. Like they want to also be a family-friendly destination. Yeah.
01:04:18
Speaker
um So there's a kind of a misalignment internally. um And it's, um yeah, I mean, you always want to have a more unique experience each time you go, right? But then it kind of comes down to like the...
01:04:34
Speaker
who who's Whose responsibility is that? Is that on the tourism board or is that the event organizer who's supposed to create that experience for you? Because if it's the tourism board, then we evaluate everything under the sun, right? It would be the moment that you get off of the airplane and how was that immigration process? um How is it getting to your hotel? you know um All the way to you know the safety of of your trip and and and the convenience of everything.
01:05:05
Speaker
Whereas if it's just the event organizer, then that's a different layer of responsibility. But anything is better than nothing. Like the fact that they can get together and be like, okay, we've approved these permits to do this type of event. That's already a victory. There are other countries that can't even get to that level, um but they still expect growth in tourism. And I think that's really silly.
01:05:28
Speaker
This is a challenge to diversify their um inbound tourist customer base. Yeah. So just a rapid-fire question. Out of all the countries in the world today, which destination is the most underrated your mind?
01:05:45
Speaker
a Qatar. Doha is amazing. um It is far more... it is everybody who has been for for more than 12 hours says the same thing where it's like i did not expect this like when people go in without expectations uh it's it's very i mean first of all it's super clean super safe um you don't deal with the same traffic that you would deal with in dubai which is like the biggest nightmare um you don't get like some of those like transient type of tourists that that Dubai attracts.
01:06:22
Speaker
um And the museums there are world class. The food is amazing. The views are spectacular. And it's just like, it's just yeah.
Film Industry and Storytelling Challenges
01:06:34
Speaker
very very unexpected um very elegant as well so I would i would say Qatar Doha is is a top tier must visit for families or for like a single guy solo trip you know what young couples Definitely family friendly. i would say definitely couple friendly. Because like if you like take a stroll along the the the Cornish like or or this is' like a district called the Mina District, it gets it's very romantic. um And the lights and the way that it hits like sunset there is unbelievable.
01:07:06
Speaker
it just It's so beautiful. really, really something to to see. Everybody needs to see at once. um The nightlife I haven't experienced there really, so I wouldn't say, i can't comment on that as as a single, you know, if you were a single guy.
01:07:24
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Note taken. But the in in the interest of time, um we'll leave more like nightlife advice after the recording. But can you talk a little bit more about what you're doing on the filmmaking side?
01:07:40
Speaker
oh sure so in 2021 i um co-founded a film production company uh with with my co-founder um joey goo and we specialize in kind of promoting asian slash asian american stories um to a global audience uh we've produced i three shorts, um one feature, i think we have like three features that we're producing now that are in various stages of development and then and in a few series as well.
01:08:16
Speaker
um But I kind of fell into it and and I really liked it actually. you know there's There's a storytelling aspect of it that I'm i'm really drawn to. Obviously I've been you know passionate about film my whole life, I just didn't realize it.
01:08:29
Speaker
um And um the thing that that excites me the most is like, there's ah there's a, as a producer, there's layer of um entrepreneurial spirit that you have to have because when you approach each film, it's, it's,
01:08:47
Speaker
almost like again, I mean, literally sometimes it is an individual company. like they They register LLCs for each individual film. um But you are faced with you know all these different challenges that require multiple skill sets to solve, you know whether it's raising financing or whether it's attracting talent or um or negotiating deals. like it's It's very complimentary to my entrepreneurial journey of running a marketing business. And there is some kind of cool overlap because I meet a lot of like celebrities, athletes, musicians, content creators, influencers um in the industry. And then I'm able to kind of combine it with some of the tourism boards or airlines that I'm working with.
01:09:28
Speaker
um So there's there's very nice overlap there too. the Kind of for you, but in my impression, these two are quite, they're not usually run together. Yeah. creative industry and the filmmaking. And maybe that's um that's that's an edge that I bring to the table. um But I i enjoy it um it. It brings me fulfillment. and Yeah. And I think part of also being an entrepreneur is like, you know, when you run it for so many years, there's a, you do kind of, you're always seeking different types of inspiration, right?
01:10:03
Speaker
to To stay motivated. um You know, that's why people have passion projects. That's why people like pick up like new hobbies. um For me, you know, that that was filmmaking. um And that was being in the in the industry. Even though the industry right now is really, really difficult to to work around. um but for ah For young student, fresh grad today, um which industry would you say is harder to get a foothold in and make money? Is it the design, creative, or is this the the filmmaking?
01:10:36
Speaker
If they have skill sets to enter both areas? I would say if you're if you're going into filmmaking and you're expecting to make a lot of money, then you should probably consider other their options. um But that's not to say it's it's not possible to to make money. I mean, it was a very lucrative industry. It's just going through this...
01:11:00
Speaker
um change right now um but once it stabilizes it'll there'll be just different ways that it's lucrative that's all like people are still making money from it and that that's you know there's no doubt in that and it's just it's been it's been consolidated um pretty uh and condensed pretty heavily and is that the is that the change you're referring to in the in terms of the industry ah ecosystem from the production to distribution, the the way people consume media,
01:11:32
Speaker
Yeah, I it started with streaming, and then then it started with the next consolidation of all the studios and the major studios. um you know Previously, you would have somebody championing a project um at a studio, and now it's like you know these are massive corporations that make these decisions, so it's not always about like the artistic decisions, what's going to generate the most revenue. So there is this, you know the consolidation, i I would say, is not great for the industry. And then on on the flip side of that is the onset of AI, Gen AI stuff, which the industry is kind of slow to adopt in there, but obviously it's happening.
01:12:11
Speaker
um And the the stuff that's happening behind the scenes is probably even more crazy. where there is going to be i mean it's inevitable right and and that's why that's you know if if there is a if there is a young filmmaker a potential filmmaker listening then um it's probably more important that they hone their ai skills yeah uh rather than like their camera skills or you know their um Yeah, but there's also always that level of like taste that's still ne that still needs some refinement that AI just can't give you overnight, right? Yeah.
01:12:52
Speaker
I mean, i think film is a great gift to us from the our predecessors in the industry, the growth of the film industry in the 1900s, Hollywood, everywhere else, Hong Kong, India.
01:13:11
Speaker
I think it was kind of a highlight of humanity, if I can put it that way. And if it were to be such a short-lived period, if AI comes and completely transforms it, i think it's it's quite a tragedy for all of us, for the consumers, for the the people in the industry.
01:13:33
Speaker
um Yeah, I've never really thought of it like that. As way of storytelling, because I think there's always the entertainment aspect, but also there's the storytelling.
01:13:44
Speaker
If you compare it books, podcasts, and other forms of media, um it would be a ah ah big loss for the future generations if we and they we're not able to consume media and get inspired by them in that format.
01:14:03
Speaker
You know, that's that's my kind of my take on this. It's a scary thought because the industry has only been around for so many years. yeah I never really thought of it in that sense. But yeah, you're right. Like like in the grand scheme of things, yes it's nothing. It's a blip, right? Exactly. You speak about the the top films that has ever existed. And everybody knows. And they're just, you can name all of them. yeah The grandmasters in the industry. Yeah.
01:14:33
Speaker
So, yeah, I think there's always going to be a form of it. It's just the consumption will be a little bit different um and it'll always kind of evolve. But at the core of it, the storytelling, I think, will well still be there. The tools will evolve. the the The platforms will always evolve.
01:14:51
Speaker
But you know I think as humans, we're we're built to tell stories, right? And we're also built to preserve stories as well. and what form that takes, that that's always going to change.
Social Media, AI, and Critical Thinking
01:15:05
Speaker
And that that's inevitable. But that I think that's okay. that's That's kind of exciting. ah as ah As a parent, do you worry about the impact of social media and short-term videos and also with now with AI on just overall development of younger generations? Oh, yeah. For attention spans. which which Which parent is not? Self-image. Which parent is not worried about this? I mean, it's crazy. Like, I'm seeing videos in my feed now where I can't, i have to like do a double take. Like, is this real or is it AI? And I think, mean I'm not going to comment too much on it, but like. you know I think the tech giants have like a yeah yeah fiduciary responsibility to protect the masses. Of course, you know it maybe it would be great to just have like a label on everything that says, is this AI made or is this human made, whatever. yeah um
01:16:01
Speaker
and it's it's It's particularly more scary for maybe perhaps the less educated you know people on earth where they're highly influenced by by the things that they see and there's no not necessarily a higher level of critical thinking and yeah then you can like really do some scary stuff with it.
01:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. So you know I went to do some trekking in Nepal on the holidays and um in the middle of the trip somewhere at a a village that you can only get to after trekking for five, six days um there's a family that we met mom and a young daughter She doesn't go to school because there's no school nearby. And all she does all day is scrolling TikTok, watching AI-generated animation on her phone. So exactly echo echoing that is usually it's the ones who don't have the opportunity to go to school, to to get trained on critical thinking. You know, the the less privileged among us gets the bad side more disproportionately.
01:17:13
Speaker
Yeah. She didn't have a school to go to. All she does is, that's her education, is social media. Yeah. That's not a good education. Yeah. I mean, you know, like... all the tools and resources available to succeed are social media. Like, you know, you just have to be conscious about what you're consuming. But of course, you know, at at that at that level of, you know, poverty or whatever, they're not going to be making those conscious decisions. And that's that's a real shame. um
01:17:47
Speaker
But the I think the future is very scary where if we don't, I mean, I don't think it's going to be controlled. i think i think it's going end up controlling. I mean, it already is, you know. Like, like that there's there's, you know, in in areas of conflict around the world, there are videos that are spreading that, you know, of incidents that didn't happen. You know, riots that never happened or happened, but it wasn't at the exact time. that it was posted and and the narratives of everything changes. And it's it's a very, very scary tool. And I don't think, I don't think anyone's going to stop it. Like it's just going to get more and more scary. And then it's probably more and more important that parents, you know, teach critical thinking and, and,
01:18:33
Speaker
and And, you know, I have a lot of complaints about how how um education higher education approaches this, right? like Like, unless universities really hone, and not universities, but also high schools, really hone down this critical thinking element, people will just fall prey to it and follow, you know, a herd mentality.
01:18:56
Speaker
it's it's ah It's very scary. Mm-hmm. um In the interest of time, I think we should wrap up. But I don't want to leave on a very pessimistic, depressing tone. So, I mean, in the outline I shared with you, the closing question I'm trying to start with this episode is, could you share the kindest thing someone has done to you?
Closing Reflections and Gratitude
01:19:21
Speaker
To be fair, I didn't come with the question. I it's i copied it from another podcast I listened to. they ask every guest the same closing question. o
01:19:35
Speaker
All right, so it shows you didn't read my outline. No, I'm sorry. ah I think I glanced at it. um i should I apologize. should have come more prepared. It's fine. so like okay let let let let me Let me share um what was one of the kindest things that has happened recently, but it's not the kindest ever. um But after after one of my talks at a travel conference in Singapore, A gentleman by the name of Gary came up to me and said that was the best talk on um about mainland China that he's ever heard.
01:20:12
Speaker
and And this is a guy that i respect very deeply now because we're friends. um and And he's an older gentleman, older than me rather. So there's like a level of authenticity and wisdom that comes with that that statement that he made. and And that gave me a lot of motivation and courage to continue um speaking at other events.
01:20:36
Speaker
um Because he also didn't comment how nervous I was or anything like that. He just commented on the content and and the commentary that I had. And that that meant a lot to me. So if you're listening, thank you, Gary.
01:20:49
Speaker
And don't hold back your compliments. You know, you don't lose anything by giving it for free to others. So, yeah, on that note, thank you, Daniel, for coming on the podcast and wish you a happy 2026 and early happy Chinese New Year.
01:21:06
Speaker
Thank you for the opportunity.