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EP19 Tony Clemente: Quitting the Job Everyone Wanted, To Build the Life I Needed
66 Plays3 months ago
One of the most memorable early guests on the show, Tony Clemente returns after 2 years to continue his story. Once a veteran Wall Street director who commanded authority in the corporate world, Tony ultimately walked away at the height of his career. Burned out and disillusioned with "the matrix", he traded prestige and security for the challenge of building something of his own.
Today, he runs multiple businesses of his own including a successful boutique tax consultancy, helping Americans abroad navigating complex financial realities. In this episode, Tony reveals what finally pushed him out, the harsh truths of corporate burnout, and the lessons learned from rebuilding life and career on his own terms.
If you are an American living abroad in need of tax solutions, you can reach Tony here:
🌐 americatax.com
📧 anthonydclemente@yahoo.com
Disclaimer: This podcast is an independent personal project and is not affiliated with or endorsed by any employer or organization. All views expressed are solely those of the host and guests. The content is for information and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, legal, tax, or professional advice. The host, guests, and associated parties assume no liability for any actions taken based on this content.
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Transcript
Introduction of Tony Clemente's Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's guest needs no further introduction. Tony Clemente or Tony Taxis was the third guest on my Inquire podcast back in 2023. That was almost two years ago.
00:00:16
Speaker
Tony um was a good friend of mine that we met in basketball and throughout the years and also mostly the podcast, I got to know a different side of him from his life stories, the journey of how he moved from New York to Singapore to where he is now.
00:00:35
Speaker
ah So much has changed since we recorded that episode and today we're lucky to have him here again to speak on what has happened since and I'm sure there are a lot of exciting stories to unpack here But for those who are first time tuning in first time hearing about him ah Tony, can you introduce yourself to the listeners who you are kind of your background story in a nutshell?
00:01:02
Speaker
Go ahead. Sure. Thanks, McRid. um I'll start with the same thing I said last time. I am both grateful, flattered, and frankly, a little embarrassed to be here. I've heard most of your podcasts and ah most of your guests are more accomplished than I am. So um you're not the only one who's interested by my story.
00:01:19
Speaker
But I guess because it's my story, it it just feels more or less interesting. ah But yeah, so Tony, Tony Taxes, one clarification from the previous podcast. I'm not the lo leader of the Wu-Tang Clan. We have a Wu-Tang basketball clan.
00:01:32
Speaker
I don't even know how he came up with that name. It's been going on for 10 years. I guess we're tight-knit and old and somewhat skilled, so that's our group name. But yeah. Yeah, so my I'll go just a brief background for anyone who hasn't listened to the first pod. I speak a lot and I speak fast, so I'll try to truncate it.
00:01:50
Speaker
um Very unconventional path to where I am. um I only know that because I've been around, I've been in corporate America for 25 years and I've met enough people and very few like me. So...
00:02:04
Speaker
Grew up um in a very normal town, um in an abnormal family. um i say um a lot also, saw that from the first pod. it's It's weird because so much time has passed that A, when I tell these stories now, it it almost feels like I'm reciting a story that I read, like because it's just, I'm not there anymore.
00:02:24
Speaker
But it it did happen and it it definitely still affects the way I react to situations. So
Tony's Challenging Childhood and Corporate Success
00:02:30
Speaker
it's still very important. um But yeah, we had like, you know, we had a normal house as far as I knew.
00:02:35
Speaker
um i just knew that my parents didn't like each other and never talked and never slept together and just hated each other. um So that's abnormal. And a lot of fistfights in the house and violence and screaming and threats of stealing the kids and la la la.
00:02:48
Speaker
So that went on for like 14 years, physical abuse, emotional abuse, that kind of stuff. um Got pretty ugly at times, definitely. um Kind of fast forward in, they ended up deciding to get divorced, which is fantastic.
00:03:03
Speaker
So that was in 1995. In 2026, they still can't agree on who initiated the divorce and whose idea it was. This is how well they get along. um But it was my mom's idea, whether she wants to believe it or not.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, so then they finally broke up and then... um I was with my mom and my brother and my sister for about nine months. But my brother was pretty big and he was rebellious and so was I. So my mom just packed up my sister and left.
00:03:27
Speaker
So then it was just me and my brother in the house. So I was 14, he was 16. That went on for a few months until somehow my father found out. What probably happened in retrospect, we ran out of food, probably, and then called him and said we needed food.
00:03:41
Speaker
um So that's probably how he found out that she was gone. So he never really moved back in. So we lived in this house. It was me and my brother. And then we moved in like my stepbrother. One of my new business partners moved in. I met in 1997. Guy I'm in business with now.
00:03:57
Speaker
ah So it just turned into this house of criminals. We all just lived in this house and um petty crime, suburban crime, but crime nonetheless. It just reminds me of you spoke about you're writing a book called The Primrose Lame. Yes. Yes.
00:04:11
Speaker
This book that's going nowhere. It's like Stewie Griffin's book from Family Guy. It's never getting started. I have – now with voice to text, I might actually finish it. So we have – the intent is i just write down a list of every story I can remember. So I have like about 50 stories.
00:04:27
Speaker
And I just want it to be butt like 50 short stories just to try to depict what the house looked because I can't really describe it. um But it was like – A lot of people drinking, smoking weed, cutting class.
00:04:38
Speaker
So those were three guarantees. So we're in high school. No one went to school. So everyone basically just lived at this house. um So, you know, we'd have. So I think to jump in to sum up, what's unique about your story is you were the outliers of that story.
00:04:54
Speaker
group of people who were in that circumstance, right? You ended up in corporate America. Yes. To a wife, kids, beautiful life, like you said. Yeah.
00:05:05
Speaker
And that's that was kind of the but the interesting part of the story we had last time. It's your journey from growing up in that kind of a chaotic ah household and later on, on your own, to going to university, to ended up in a decent job, in white-collar job on Wall Street.
00:05:25
Speaker
So if you just kind of fast forward, I kind of already spilled the beans on what happened next. Sure. Yeah, so fast forward. and And it's funny, just to fast forward to corporate America,
00:05:38
Speaker
I still have a tell, I would say. Like, so real blue blood corporate American people, they don't like me and they they can spot me a mile away.
00:05:49
Speaker
So I would say anyone with a soul and a conscience typically likes me a lot. They like me so much that they they gravitate to me like like a leader. it's a yeah I don't mean that very humbly, but like they just, they love me. um But the people who aren't,
00:06:03
Speaker
They I don't do some tell I still have from that. So as much as I'm in the job and I'm a performer and I can dress nice, the stain of that never went away. So that's the funniest part about even even to today. It's just um yeah. Anywho.
00:06:16
Speaker
So end up fast forward all the way. And so I'm working, you know, I have an accounting degree. so I'm working at public accounting firms. And then I left ah the public sector go to go the private sector. worked at the biggest investment bank in the world for a few years and then the biggest asset manager in the world.
00:06:32
Speaker
And where we left off with the podcast was, and we were just chuckling before we started, this was only two years ago. I'm riding high. I figured it all out.
Health Decline in Corporate America
00:06:40
Speaker
What a happy ending. everythings It's everything sorted. um Because I wanted to listen again. I'm like, so what? you know Because that was not that long ago. And as you'll hear, it was not sorted.
00:06:50
Speaker
um But I had a couple of tells at that time. I talked a little bit about mental illness. and the effect it's having on me. I talked a little bit about corporate America's drain on me, a little bit about the remnants of the family. So, yeah, where we left off was I'm working, I'm doing great, everything's going great. And then look as we'll we'll get into, um there was a pretty steep decline um from there.
00:07:14
Speaker
So that's going to be, I think, where we start in the podcast is a timestamp to ah the decline from the peak.
00:07:25
Speaker
So tell us what happened since the last podcast and what exactly triggered that ah the change of course happened. Yeah, so I'm a perpetual optimist. So when I looked at my face in the previous podcast, everything's great. And to be fair, it had started falling apart before that, but I'm a fighter.
00:07:44
Speaker
So I didn't, I was going to continue on. So I would say there's a few factors that culminate. Number one, I don't really belong there, if I'm being really honest. it it's I'm in a state of cognitive dissonance where, like, I'm i'm working here.
00:07:58
Speaker
You pay me good money. I provide for my family. I can do this job. But it's not – I don't feel rewarded by the work, and I do not feel like I – can adapt to the falsified culture that is forced upon people who work in these jobs. This kind of like mirrored reality of what they insist upon, which is not reality. And then it's very unhealthy. So part of it is just that.
00:08:23
Speaker
And part of it, frankly, is just like, you know, physical, like a lot of night calls. a lot of stress, kind of being around the clock. So you have my own temperament, which is, a you know, I'm not cut as as many people are. Like, I'm a little bit off. I have mental illness, you know, depending on how you talk to what day of the week you catch me on.
00:08:43
Speaker
And then this environment. So basically a few years prior to that, I just had mood swings, I would say, was the first sign. Like, I'm just i'm just moody and I'm just getting grumpier and grumpier. And I'm trying to continue to tell myself just...
00:08:55
Speaker
you know, snap out of it. This is everybody's dealing with the same thing. Yes, you work very hard. Yes, it's very stressful. you got a lot going on. But so does everybody else, you you know, figure it out. So at first it was just moodiness and lack of sleep that transformed into like um more severe sleep deprivation, frankly, which started leading to hallucinations, frankly, like um Not that like a dog was talking to me and telling me to go do something, but if you ever watch the movie Fight Club, where he's seen just flashes of things, it was exactly like that. um
00:09:26
Speaker
Driving with my wife, right side of the road, my wife's there. And i'm like, do you see that? And she's like, what? I'm like, oh. And she's like, what did you see? I'm like, i just thought I saw something. and And that kind of stuff would happen a lot, which is frightening if you're driving a car and you're seeing things that aren't necessarily there, just flashes of things. But that does happen if you don't sleep. So I didn't sleep probably for about 8 to 10 years um regularly. um I'm probably understating how bad it was.
00:09:52
Speaker
That got worse. started having like severe vertigo spins. um So we'd be, we'd go away. Okay, really stressed out. Let's go one specific trip to Melbourne. I'm sorry, Perth.
00:10:03
Speaker
We land in Perth and i'm so the room is spinning severely. We're just sitting in a hotel room. Wake up the next morning and I'm throwing up seasick in a bed in a hotel room like that severe, you know.
00:10:15
Speaker
And again, I feel all the shame and guilt. I'm ruining this vacation for my wife. Because have to understand in between these episodes, I'm not the most pleasant guy to be around. um I'm working 50, 60 hours a week. So nine to six, you get about two hours at home. We have two kids.
00:10:29
Speaker
Then you're on calls from eight to eleven, two to three to four nights a week. You're getting pinged on vacations. You're getting pinged on holidays. You're on call 24 hours a day. um Medical leaves. had multiple surgeries.
00:10:42
Speaker
you're Totally disrespected. Just harassed. So I wanted to... be a husband, right? I want to. So anyway, so this is happening. That's really getting bad. And even through this, I'm like, all right, well, I'm miserable. I can feel my brain breaking, literally. I'm like, so, but you know, I, I got about 10 more. I'm a math guy.
00:11:00
Speaker
i need this exact amount of money to retire. So I got about 10 years left. I got about a hundred audits left to do or so. And I would just check them off. I had a ah grid, 199, 98. just got to get through this.
00:11:12
Speaker
Got worse. It got to the point that I started getting like really bad daytime dizzy spells and chest pains. So I'm having severe trouble breathing. Now, um I'm going to be totally transparent on this.
00:11:24
Speaker
You know, this is brought to the intention of my company regularly. um I had made... I spoke to HR. I spoke to my boss a million times um and telling him these exact stories.
00:11:36
Speaker
So you have an ah employee telling you that he can't breathe. He's hallucinating. He's getting vertigo spins. And it's just like the last thing he said, and I'm going to jump around, was, all right, try to figure out a way that everyone else is dealing with it.
00:11:49
Speaker
You know, just the typical response. So anyway, Sunday morning, I am meeting a friend. So, you know, I'm heavily involved in the Sober Network at the time, meeting a sponsee.
00:12:00
Speaker
And he's telling me he's pouring his heart He's got something going on. And he's basically fading into the background as he's talking to me. and Things are starting to get really fuzzy. and they You go ahead. Yeah, just just to provide more contact for...
00:12:13
Speaker
All the experiences you described, ah you were ah sober, was not under any influence and has been for over decades, right? 16 years at that time. Yeah.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah. So sober for 16 years, doing everything you're supposed to do. You got the job, you got the wife, you got the kids, you know, yeah fight through with tough guy, whatever. Tony had a remarkable recovery story, recovery journey. Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
uh from where we left off last episode he was you know at the probably the best shape of your life at that point and the most uh thankful and um comfortable uh at the time so it wasn't because of his own uh addiction or doing that left him being more broken uh since right it was it was accumulation of Like you said, seven to 10 years of lack of sleep, um the high pressure um work environment, high demand, um but also the, I guess the nature of the work itself was was was also not the most pleasant.
00:13:16
Speaker
So. No, probably it also makes my disposition. I do think there are people out there who have such a strong sense of internal composure that they aren't as. But in reality, this is not a normal job. So, yeah, it's Sunday morning, March 31st.
00:13:32
Speaker
And I'm talking to this individual and i'm I'm trying not to faint, basically. I'm having like a panic attack, like in real time. And and this guy, you know, wrapped up in his own head. He's like, it looks like boring you death. It looks like you're not paying attention. And I'm like, no, I'm like, um I just I need to lay down. I think I'm going to faint. So go home.
00:13:48
Speaker
Put my daughter down for a nap. She's laying behind me and I'm sitting there crying silently, looking at the clock and just like, am I going to die? Like, am might is is she going to wake up and and dad's dead?
00:13:59
Speaker
And it just is like, I've done every single thing I'm supposed to and be asked to do. And this is this is what I get. So wake up the next day. had started seeing a psychiatrist three or four months earlier.
00:14:11
Speaker
So, again, the easy response for society is to medicate me. So let's give him some drugs so he's not as erratic. And then he can deal with this totally fucking bullshit society that we're forcing him into.
00:14:25
Speaker
Kind of. I mean, I made choices. but um So I call her the next day. I'm like, I don't think I can go to work. And she's like, I've been waiting for this call. She's like, the first time I met her, she's like, this is not sustainable. It's not going to work.
00:14:38
Speaker
But I'm like, what choice do i have? Like, I don't like I applied to jobs. i'm I'm a foreigner in Singapore. It's not a shop in Singapore. I'm at a certain level. There's not a million jobs out there. And I just I applied to this is it. Like, either I work this job to provide for my family.
00:14:53
Speaker
I'm a PR, so won't to leave the country, or we don't have money. Like, I don't know what else that this is, what, you know, what am I going to do? So, but I was that desperate. Like, well, okay, if it's have a dead dad or a broke dad, we'll take the broke
Legal Battle and Recovery
00:15:05
Speaker
dad. My kids love me. My wife loves me. Like, not a question. So,
00:15:08
Speaker
Took off work um at that time just to try to get my brain together. um So I'm seeing her and then friends are like, listen, go get your heart checked. Because again, I'm having these bad chest pains. I'm like, no, no, no, this is anxiety.
00:15:21
Speaker
My heart's fine. To your point, I don't drink. I don't smoke. I eat well. I exercise every day. No family history. go get my heart checked. He comes back. He's like you're in the 90th percentile.
00:15:33
Speaker
I'm like, great. Like, no, no, no, that's not good. You have the heart of a 75 year old. And at that point I just break down crying. I'm like, I'm sorry, doc. I don't understand. i you know, you can tell me my mind broke. fine. Like, i you know, I have mental illness in my family and I know I'm stressed and who fucking hallucinates? Like, I get it.
00:15:52
Speaker
but There's no way. And so we're going through the checklist. I'm like, I don't get it. them or What could it be? He's like, lack of sleep and stress. I'm like, cool. So my job is literally killing me, you know?
00:16:04
Speaker
um So I'm pretty fucking pissed at the time. So you know i'm I'm off work. I'm on medical leave. um I have zero trust and confidence and belief in my company specifically, my management, and in corporate America at large. I could be a cynic. Fine.
00:16:21
Speaker
So I'm like, listen, doc, I got to go get my other ankle surgery done right now. She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, I just feel like I got to go get that done. Good thing I did. So in the background, just very quickly,
00:16:32
Speaker
HR is pinging me. So, by the way, I've blocked my boss and everyone from my job on my personal cell. like It's not that you're I know you're going to bother me. I just, you have no access to my ear anymore.
00:16:42
Speaker
So unless I check my email, you can't contact me. HR is pinging me on my personal email. Hey, we're just checking in. I'm good. How can we support you? I don't need your support. Thanks. I got medical suite. Just thanks for nothing.
00:16:55
Speaker
next day we are not respecting your medical leave we are making you take unpaid leave effective immediately i have hospitalization leave from a psychiatrist saying that i'm taking off for whatever she's like tony i've been doing this for 20 years i have never seen a company do this so thankfully i had just got in for surgery from my other ankle So i'm like, well, i have a second hospitalization leave for this ankle surgery for six weeks.
00:17:21
Speaker
And then came pretty snotty, snarky back at them. Like, and do I got to get an attorney? like Like, what are we doing here? Oh, no, no, no, Anthony, Bob, oh, God, the typical corporate bullshit. Like, as soon as you force them to do the right thing, then they cop out. So now I'm a broken man. I'm in my therapist, hysterical crying. I'm like, I'm just going to walk away from this job, whatever. nothing I can do.
00:17:41
Speaker
Now, keep in mind, I have vacation. I have like earned a time off. Like you could have just taken vacation, but they had to go with the biggest dick move possible. I've been there 16 years, done everything they've asked for, but thank you.
00:17:53
Speaker
So I'm talking to my therapist and I'm like, I'm just going to walk away. And she's like, listen, I don't, I'm not going tell you what to do. She's like, but don't do that. She's like, I'm like, no, I've asked around. i got no, there's nothing I can do. There's no standing.
00:18:05
Speaker
So she gave me a recommendation. She's like, talk to this one particular law firm. They're in downtown Manhattan. go through these exact things, have them talk to them. Reads out the law firm and I'm telling the situation, but I'm still very sheepish. Now, this is a great segue back to like my past.
00:18:22
Speaker
like I don't believe I'm worth anything ah at my core. Like i I do, but I don't. So like who who's going to, you know, you just beat the kid and throw him in the car. That's what he's worth, you know? So it's making me sad. So, and I'm like, do you think I got a case? She's like, yeah, you have a case. shes like what are you talking about? So she's like, you never talk to them again. Give me their contact information. I handle it.
00:18:41
Speaker
So the attorney talked to the company. They negotiated an exit, um and which I can't get into. um up You know, it was NDAs and blah, blah, blah. But the good news is, and this is kind of funny, this is true, I was raised in tax to read laws.
00:18:56
Speaker
So basically a law comes out. We need to read it explicitly because we're trying to figure out a way to make it worth you know, worth it for us. But I do this all the time. I've read all of the HR policies, all of the Singapore policies. I've read them all.
00:19:09
Speaker
So when this happened, the attorney's like, do you think they violated any policy? I'm like, actually, yeah. I got them verbatim, citing him highlighting, sending them. So, The good news is they're so bad at their jobs and so unprepared that they had no idea how many things that they had violated. So my case was like a slam dunk.
00:19:26
Speaker
um So I sent all these things over. They they basically just immediately folded. um So walked away. That was the end of them. So I left work in April. um My last day was in September.
00:19:39
Speaker
For the first two months, I could barely get out of the house. um ah My brain, it's hard to explain what a brain breakdown looks like, but basically it's just, it's so fried that like ah any stimulation, like a cup of coffee, I was a wreck, way too much stimulation. so I basically had to just sit there for like months and just do nothing. So um not easy to do. So first of all, you feel pathetic.
00:20:02
Speaker
um I'm like, you know, my wife's now got to take care of everybody. I can pick the kids up from school. I can cook food, but I can't do anything. So that took months. First couple of months, I just was bedridden and just I really didn't feel well.
00:20:15
Speaker
So this was 2024. twenty twenty four This is 2024. This is like eight months after we sat here. Yeah. Eight months, not even. I'm sitting here like dead. And then the heart's another thing. So sorry to get back to that.
00:20:27
Speaker
ah you have four things coming out of your heart. This is real technical, Thomas, specifically to our astrophysicist friend. You got four things coming out of your heart. One of them is like almost completely blocked, right? So you have these calcium you have this calcium score, so totally calcified, like hardened and blocked.
00:20:41
Speaker
And two other ones aren't looking good. So it's kind of irreversible, sort of. um I can take statins to get my cholesterol down so nothing else crystallizes. But um The good news is that I was I got this one specific test, the CT scan with contrast, where they really look into your heart at these things.
00:21:01
Speaker
Took the annual physical every year, treadmill test. Everything's fine. You know me. I got cardio for days. um And basically what happened, you would have been the guy boxing 15 rounds. I just dropped dead. And what happened? A piece the calcium broke off, lodged in heart, died.
00:21:14
Speaker
So that sucks. um Now, as long as it doesn't get worse, um it's low okay. I don't have any stints in or anything, stints, stin um but I can take this statin and maybe like the half clogged ones can get unclogged, but the oneclock one clogged one is, there's nothing you can do. So I just got to be super careful.
00:21:32
Speaker
um That's the heart. So that's, go ahead. So I guess from the physical to mental to the whole, I think ah the breakdown from the corporate life. Yeah.
00:21:43
Speaker
What's the moral of the story? moral Great question. Moral the story. There's a few things I would say. Number one, this is not normal. This current environment is not normal.
00:21:58
Speaker
This crazed stress, everyone with a phone in their pocket, is not for your benefit. It is for your firm to be able to contact you anytime they want.
00:22:09
Speaker
I am convinced in 50 years, We're going to look back at this period of time just like we look back at factory workers breathing in black smoke 50 years ago and be like, ha, ha, ha, that was so ridiculous.
00:22:23
Speaker
I couldn't believe we did that. That is exactly the gonna way we're going to look at this period of time now because people are dying slowly, silently every day. This is not normal. One moral of the story.
00:22:34
Speaker
If you are suffering in silence, you have to tell somebody. Mm-hmm. You know me, I'm a talker. I cannot tell you how many people have come out of the closet to talk to me about situations they're going through right now because I broke down.
00:22:49
Speaker
i I would prefer not to broken down. But it is opened up. And I mean people who just you would not expect it. All suffering in silence. I speak to people. What's going on? have a guy over last night at my house.
00:23:02
Speaker
What's going on? a Bad week. How many nights do we work? It's not that bad, like three, four nights a week. But I don't take calls past 11. three, four nights a week, you're taking phone calls till 11 o'clock at night and that is considered normal?
00:23:15
Speaker
That is not normal. That is not a normal job. In your 20s, yeah, maybe you can do it. 30s, 40s. So number one, it's not normal. Number two, I want people to feel empowered to talk to somebody.
00:23:27
Speaker
you know Most people, especially men, this is not whatever, but we are taught not to speak. If I had a problem when I was a kid, and I said something, something happened to me.
00:23:40
Speaker
Best case scenario, there was no response. Medium case scenario, I got verbally tortured. And worst case scenario, I got the shit kicked out of me. Like if I said I had a problem, those are the barometer of responses I would get.
00:23:54
Speaker
Now, thankfully, it's not 80s and 90s anymore. Like time is changing. But I would say the moral is you have to see the signs. Like if you feel like something's happening, get it checked out. Don't suffer in silence.
00:24:06
Speaker
Talk to somebody. Just make sure that you know you're not just kind of dealing with it because you look around and everyone else is dealing with it. So if I could summarize it that way, I do feel like we have to take a little bit. We don't have unions. We don't have things to protect us. But we have to take a little bit of ownership and power back on our own hands because… You will never be taken care of if you don't take care of yourself.
00:24:29
Speaker
um I would say those are the things that I would love if anyone took anything away from Miss Ubi that. I think what do you mentioned were great kind of the takeaways from your your own personal story at the individual level, what an individual should do um given the prevalence of this situation.
00:24:49
Speaker
a silenced, toxic work culture, yeah even in today's you know white-collar job offices. ah But also, I think if you want to elevate it to the societal level, what I had in my mind was, um if you were familiar with ah Marxist critique on capitalism,
00:25:09
Speaker
The central theme of that is the alienation of your own labor um in a society where everyone
Critique of Corporate Systems
00:25:18
Speaker
is thought of only as um as a mean of production, um as a depreciating asset.
00:25:24
Speaker
You are just as replaceable as anybody else in the outcome of making value for the capital owner. So you know societies are divided by the halves and half nots.
00:25:38
Speaker
the capital owners and the labor. And again, like because of ah the the way things are set up, most of us are in the second camp.
00:25:49
Speaker
um And the only way for us to sustain our lives is to um work in a job, which is a contract where you are literally selling your labor in exchange for some monetary reward that could keep you keep yourself going until the day you can't do it anymore. And then for most people, when they start, they have this magic number in mind to retire. But what they don't see at that point is once you get there, how much of your life has depreciated over that time.
00:26:24
Speaker
That's not been compensated. Right. um So a lot of times I think we're just literally selling our organs like we're no different than the guy who go to a black market and cut off his own kidney so that he can, you know, at on the good side like buy some food for himself and the worst even worse if he wants the iPhone so it's not far-fetched Magritte I gave my brain and my heart those are the only two that was the only time I'm like alright gotta stop
00:26:58
Speaker
take my legs, arms, like I can't live without a brain and heart. You're like a kidney, take the fucking kidney. that That's a better choice. My brain and my heart, which by the way, the brain never heals.
00:27:09
Speaker
So I am so susceptible to this. It's happened multiple times since then, but just to segue, if you don't mind, back to what you said. So at the tail end of my career, I was promoted to a position that I sat on board of directors meetings in different countries. I'm not you know me i'm not saying this to brag.
00:27:25
Speaker
I'm just saying that that I was in the room with the individuals who were like these haves in the way that they spoke. This is not very different from the prison industrial complex whereby you are designated a number.
00:27:36
Speaker
You are a resource. They don't say what kind of people can, what are our resources? And they're very intentional with the words that they use and how they use these words in these meetings. To your point, like we have totally removed human beings from this, you know, from this actual number or or quantifying metric that they use.
00:27:54
Speaker
But even one other thing about you said, people have these timeframes in mind. It is incredibly true. And what people don't realize, is you don't get there. you never get to that age, that number you're thinking about. That's a carrot. That's a carrot that keeps you running. You get there. So let's just say my number was 52 years old is what I needed specifically.
00:28:12
Speaker
Can't get there. Not going to make it. You get chewed up and spit out at about mid-40s, 50s. And if you are going to make it, you have completely sold yourself because they know exactly who they want to stay in there the people that can perpetuate this machine so number one you don't get there and it's those last eight to ten years when you're actually making the money that you're really worth i do think the last few years i was compensated fairly i didn't complain about the pay at that point because it was about right but it's not long enough to actually get there so there's no like long-term health care it's like nfl football players before they had medical coverage but they may or may not have now like
00:28:47
Speaker
We spit you out, but then you're going to die, number one. Number two, for the people that I watch who stay around, all right the head of my department who, for all the people I don't like in my department, I liked to this guy, the last head. at and Even the previous one I really, really liked. But the last one, him and his wife didn't make it.
00:29:03
Speaker
A strange relationship with his daughter. And I just found out like two days ago that now he's battling. and I won't get into his business, but a very serious ailment. So like his, you know, swan song out the door is what?
00:29:14
Speaker
Like some crippling ailment on the way out. And even before that, he I just found out from this poor guy that like he had that walk of people who are in their mid 70s when their hips don't work and they kind of have to move. that i'm i'm trying not to be funny, but like they have a cartoonish way of moving just because their hips are in pain.
00:29:31
Speaker
This dude's in his 50s probably. Can't play golf anymore. Can't do this. I'm like, so they just crush you to literally all you can do is this job. And it's just, it's so rare. Like I'm doing the job for what reason? We talked last time about purpose.
00:29:45
Speaker
I'm doing this for my family, you know, for love life, things like that. Well, if... But I'm not getting there. Like, i'm I'm doing these things for that purpose. But I'm actually... For most people, you're destroying your relationship with your wife or your family or yourself. or Like, you're giving up all these things just for the job. So, like, the means to the end becomes the end.
00:30:04
Speaker
And then you lose the means. And it's just... it's um Anyway, i didn't mean to cut you off there. But what you say rings and incredibly true in my experience and what I've what i've seen. Right. So, I guess it's hard for those who...
00:30:17
Speaker
never lived on the other side like you, who had a unique unconventional upbringing to see this side of the this production factory that we're in, right the the corporate world we're in today, how the society has evolved.
00:30:33
Speaker
um And I think in the back of my mind, I'm just trying to abstract out kind of the mechanism of how this machine that keeps you in there.
00:30:45
Speaker
right like Like we briefly touched on at first, they sell you this romantic story of how you could... climb the corporate ladder and reach to a level of um income level and then you work for a few years and you retire and then that's your magic number and then you can enjoy your life post retirement travel the world have fun with your family but To get there, it missed out on what happens in the first, second, third, fourth decades that that you're part of the institution.
00:31:17
Speaker
And then adding on to what you said, most people, or at least a big portion of it, don't even get there, right? It's ah is's it's a pyramid shape. It's a triangle. Many people fall off the ladder. It's not a straight up ladder to the heaven. It's it's it's a pyramid, right? Right.
00:31:35
Speaker
so And and that's that's a sad sad reality um in the way that the institution and the machine perpetuates itself so that the minority of the wealthy or the halves or the ones who made it can keep staying as the minority. It's always going to be that way.
00:31:54
Speaker
And it's kind of the unspoken, ugly part of the reality that we live in today, right? um And there's two ways they get you there, and they're very, very smart. Number one, to your point, is the carrot that never really comes. It comes, but it doesn't come.
00:32:10
Speaker
So it'll start with the promise of more responsibility. What does that mean? Nothing. That just means more work. But people will pretend that they like that because belief behind that they believe the promise of promotion, which, again, is always next year or two years or three years.
00:32:26
Speaker
So when when you believe you're getting promoted in one year and it takes four – They're like, God, I got promoted. But then they don't pay you. They're like, well, we can't pay you this year. Why? Because something else happens. The only reason I really wanted this promotion was for the fucking money.
00:32:39
Speaker
That comes three more years later. So they're very, very smart in how they do this. Simultaneous. that but To be honest, that's obvious. I think everyone kind of knows that but deals with it because you want the money. The part that I didn't realize, super subtle, was the erosion of the sense of self. um As much as I don't believe in myself, I'm also a pretty confident guy in terms of like, I i know who I am.
00:33:02
Speaker
What I didn't realize, it's like waves crashing on a mountain. It just slowly erodes it to the point that even if you don't drink the Kool-Aid, it erodes your sense of self. Like you start thinking, well, this is the best job out there. I can't get another job. I'm not worth anything.
00:33:17
Speaker
And I've seen this from people who are super talented who left. to start their own venture, including myself, that when I start, I don't believe that I can do this. I had more confidence as an intern, a fresh grad when I was doing, I'm like, I can freaking do this.
00:33:30
Speaker
When I came out, ah no, no, no, no. like it it it's And I didn't realize that until I actually heard other people say it. I felt it, but I'm like, wow, like the erosion of the self with the simultaneous carrot. I'm not sure it's intentional not. It probably is, but it is incredibly effective in keeping us exactly where they want us to be.
00:33:47
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It's like in those ah movies of psychiatric wards where if you put a completely healthy person in there, after a while, he'll think he's sick and he has no ability to live independently outside of the institution anymore because that's the whole reality. That's the only thing he knows.
00:34:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm watching like, I mean, not to put her out. So my wife has is changed jobs a few years ago and she's starting, it's starting to erode her. And I'm watching, she's very strong, thankfully. she's i mean She's smart, she's got options, but like, I'm just watching it on her. And i'm I'm grateful that I was there so I can kind of share experience, but it's not, I just, I'm just watching it now because now I'm away from it.
00:34:31
Speaker
So I have this, this pit morass. I'm like, I'm never going get out of here. to, you know, about a few months after that, i my brain switched back on. So just to bring it back, like i I can't explain that it was off because I was literally doing everything.
00:34:46
Speaker
But maybe it was the the front lobe or I don't know exactly how to phrase it, but my brain was not firing the way it was. And of a sudden one day, this buddy who I said I knew from 97 who lived in my house. Now, quick funny segue because this has been pretty sad.
00:35:01
Speaker
um So this guy rocks up to my house, back to Primrose. It's 1996.
00:35:06
Speaker
he he gets introduced they're like yeah this kid you know he was in my science class but i didn't know him that well he' was from a different town they're like yeah you know his his parents threw him out he's got nowhere to go you know but he's got two forty s and then some some other stuff going on he's like can he come in the house and we're like Yeah, whatever. Like, you you brought some beer and some weed. Come on in. And and and that's how i met him. What's 240s?
00:35:26
Speaker
240s are these these gross – I'll just use this. as it like these It's malt liquor. It comes in a bottle like this. If you watch, like, hood movies, like black hood movies, they're drinking these 40s. It's super cheap. They taste gross. They work. Okay, so this malt liquor. He came to the house. came to the house with beer and weed. And that was it. So I met him in 97.
00:35:46
Speaker
Anyway, fast forwarding, he was, he's been very active in trying to get a legal cannabis business in United States. So we've been talking about this since 2017.
00:35:57
Speaker
twenty seventeen and Okay. And he was like, can you get involved? And I would talk to him about it. I'd share some thoughts. I'd meet his partners, but like, i can't, you know, first of I have a conflict of interest with my previous job, but at the same time, I don't have any time, as you can see. i mean, what am I going to do? So He reached out again. happened to talk to him and he's like, listen, we're like, we have a license. We're almost finished construction. Like we actually need an outsourced CFO. So, and and I'm like, again, confident to shop. and i'm like, hold on, Tony, like you can do this. So started working with him. And that was actually the segue into like so getting into my own company.
Transition to Entrepreneurship
00:36:31
Speaker
Cause previous to that, i'm I'm looking at being a grab share driver because I'm not a citizen. I can't even drive grab. I'm like, I'll do grab hitch hitch. I meant to say, I'll do grab hits, I'll just be a grab hitch driver and and and be a father.
00:36:43
Speaker
Now, there's nothing wrong with that. I love my kids. I like being a father, but like I i was just shot. i i I didn't think I could do anything. Started talking to him, wires start firing back up, brain starts coming back on.
00:36:55
Speaker
And so I'm like, all right. So I put a whole presentation together with the help of AI. Thank God they have AI. And I convinced them to let me kind of buy in. So that was my first gig. So now I'm sitting here like, well, I am a CPA.
00:37:07
Speaker
I'm like, why don't I just do some taxes? My name is Tony Taxes. I'm like, all right. So I went back. I had formed a company in 2002 that was still active, looked into it, and started hanging up a shindle and started offering to do taxes. So just from that little seed, um you know that kind of branched into that business.
00:37:26
Speaker
Since then, transformed, formed a pretty – it's very boutique and growing, but I have a pretty comprehensive suite of like tax and accounting services I can do. um Basically, ah well, let me let me jump around a little bit.
00:37:39
Speaker
So um I'm not when I say AI, I'm not a guy who's like building rocket ships. And you hear these commercials. i I mean, I'm just using it for what I can use it for. But I would say without it, I would not have been able to form a company by myself.
00:37:55
Speaker
um It has it's it's incredible what you can do. And I had zero experience. until September of last year, so about a year. And from everything from a logo to a website to the corporate document, it's incredible what you can do when you start getting into it. So help me build this um this outsource CFO thing, which we're still working on. I'm flying to New York next week to kind of go meet them.
00:38:15
Speaker
um And then, you know, started building up the tax and accounting business, you know, everything from what I'm legally allowed to offer, the services, bringing on a partner, so on and so forth, helped me find a good website.
00:38:26
Speaker
And then as I'm doing this, had a buddy who's now my partner in my tax business. He had offered to bring me into SMU Academy. He was doing a two-day presentation on digitalization and finance.
00:38:38
Speaker
And he's like, would you like to take a couple of hours? I'm like, cool. put it together, digitalization, accounting, just whatever, which I don't really know what that even means, to be fair. so I'm trying to like pull something together using AI.
00:38:50
Speaker
And I'm presenting it to eight to 10, mid 40 Singaporeans using skills, futures, credits, you know to adjunct their learning. First half was just buzzwords and nonsense. So the second half was just AI.
00:39:04
Speaker
um And just showing them like this is how you can build an accounts payable procedure. This is how – and looking at – first of all, to get 10 middle-aged Singaporeans who are like 10 minutes away from eating lunch, just tired, eyes just popping out of their head looking at this thing and they're like so locked in. I'm like, ooh.
00:39:20
Speaker
So we did the presentation, went really well. I can present quite well. um At the end, like, yo, this is a goldmine. So went back, partnered up with a different buddy, and just built like ah an AI training program, which I just finished about two and a half weeks ago, um which is like a practical implementation of AI. Like this is what you can do if you're an accountant. This is what you can do if you're a teacher.
00:39:42
Speaker
This is what you can do in Word. this what you can do in Outlook. So... I have these three businesses that I'm kind of running now. It's been less than a year. Went from hopeless, frankly, had no idea what was going on to like they're all starting ah to come on at the same time. So we're realizing that, you know, we have no processes, like all the things that you learn as you're running a business. But.
00:40:02
Speaker
It has been fantastic. So I will say now that that's happened, it's easy for me to look back kind of down my nose at corporate America like I don't need you. um But without these opportunities, frankly, I i don't know if I'd be sitting there on my couch just still pretty banged up about it. But – Needless say, I'm quite fired up. And I have i have a million things I'd love to share about about that stuff, but I want to make sure we're staying on course here. Yeah, yeah. So so just to contextualize the timeline, last year in April, was it April that you resigned? and Yeah. And then September was the last day. The official end, yeah. The official last day. And then October was when you put together the presentation.
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah. So... so And what happened in between, you said initially it was, it was a you were not used to it. You had to sit on your couch for a few months, just doing nothing.
00:40:49
Speaker
and then slowly
Building a Tax Business with AI
00:40:50
Speaker
over time, you kind of regained the muscle that you could use to walk on your own, right? yeah The metaphor is previously you were perhaps sitting on a wheelchair, except it's not a wheelchair. It's just a $4,000 Herman Miller.
00:41:05
Speaker
herman miller That's your weird wheelchair. And then now you're relearn how to walk on your own too um to build a life with some contribution value to others that you can get paid for and provide for your family, for other people.
00:41:21
Speaker
So um is is that the characterization of the process you've been through? That's exactly it And it's funny because like like I said, a a ah like an ankle injury, like yeah you heal it. But a brain injury is very weird. So when it it just needs to chill, it just it just takes a very, very long time. And it it needs to calm down and kind of repair itself. So...
00:41:40
Speaker
Once that happened and like it started kind of firing back off again, um that's when it all took. So in the meanwhile, you know, my kids are in private school, which is quite expensive, which we have to pull them out of, kind of get them transitioned to local school.
00:41:52
Speaker
um At the same time, like to be fair to my wife, she's looking over at me like, you know, I didn't sign up for this. And and she didn't say that, but like, you know, it it just I felt pathetic, you know, and I'm just like it it was pretty rough ah psychologically. Yeah.
00:42:05
Speaker
But, you know, use all the tools that I had learned over my life, you know, my purpose, um friends, just like reading a lot of books, inspirational stuff, just trying to like get myself back together, um realizing like the trauma, frankly, of not just my childhood, but of this experience and what that had on me and just trying to like unlearn a lot of that stuff.
00:42:23
Speaker
And so when I left, you know, my company, I was a director, fairly established in the corporate world. and how And became an intern in small business. So knew nothing. So I knew nothing about anything. So, you know, it's... I joke around now because like if I walked into like a warehouse where they were producing sneakers, I'm like, how does this owner keep track of every single thing he has to do from like compliance to payroll to manufacturing to fights?
00:42:50
Speaker
It is overwhelming. And this is where, like I said, it's... Yes, if you have a ton of money to hire a ton of people, that's fine. But if you don't and you're trying to be... you know, course conscious, you know, that's where I think you can really use some tools that are available now that weren't. So kind of started in and just approached it from every single angle, um starting with the the marijuana, the Massachusetts, the cultivation business, um just learning everything I can. So like, you know, how do you sell this? What does it cost? What are your inputs? I'm an accountant. So like building out a comprehensive set of financial statements, is this thing going to make money?
00:43:24
Speaker
For those who are familiar with the industry, most businesses are going down now. So people came in, you had Starbucks level of investment that can literally just buy their way through it and they're fine.
00:43:35
Speaker
Then you had like people with maybe a couple of million dollars that were going to get in They don't know anything about the product, the business, and they weren't hands-on. They're all failing, and they you know a ton of overhead here. Our situation is you know four or five guys was called bootstrapped. So we're just we're just investing our own way in. So we don't owe anybody anything. So we have an architect.
00:43:54
Speaker
We have a grower. We have like a business developer, and they brought me in. So even with this, that was my first exposure. Like, so, you know, how do we get the next compliance application together to keep the license?
00:44:05
Speaker
How do we put the financials together if we want an investor? What does an investor look like? What do the shares look All the things that you don't learn in school. How could you know any of these things? Yeah. HR. And so i'd I'd meet. So it's funny. Once this started happening, I started getting introduced to other small business owners because I have friends who run their own businesses.
00:44:21
Speaker
And just listening to these people and trying to absorb the knowledge of people who just – let's say their family run a business or they've done it for a long time. Like they have so much ingrained knowledge, just like you would have your job in like how to like navigate corporate waters, how to do research, you know, whatever the case may be. So just trying to soak all this in from other people, kind of compliment that to what I knew and then kind of build out these processes. So, but it's been, it's been amazing. I have, you know, I have no doubt that this is going to be successful.
00:44:50
Speaker
um It's very different because previously, I think I've told you this already. What is $1,000? Okay. okay If you're working at a corporate job and they said, great job, here's $1,000, that is an insult.
00:45:03
Speaker
You're like, what am I going to do with $1,000? $1,000 raise. What am going do Like I just killed myself. Go try to convince someone on the street to give you $1,000. All of sudden, $1,000 is a lot of money.
00:45:14
Speaker
you have Like I have no money coming in. $1,000 is a lot of money. So getting used to that, the value of money, what it costs, and just how to price things is just – for me, that's been the hardest part.
00:45:26
Speaker
I'm not a marketer. I'm very good at what I do. I'm not great at selling. I'm not good at pricing. And so I would say after I built everything, the smartest thing I did was reach out and ask for help and and had a buddy kind of come in with me.
00:45:38
Speaker
um And it's it's changed everything. That plus the website. We ended up with a fantastic website, which is which is quite fortuitous. It was just very lucky. Yeah. and This is your tax business. This is the tax business. So we what I realized is there's a lot of American expats out here.
00:45:53
Speaker
yeah And the service quality out here is abysmal. So you have... One third, very, very talented, very good. They really are good people. One third are just out here going through the motions. And there's another third of just between fear mongering and just like insults or I don't know what.
00:46:09
Speaker
This would never fly. ah Again, i'm I've been doing this. I worked at big companies, you know, like. So anyway, so I realized that like rather than just I'll do anything you want for any amount of money is how I felt at the beginning.
00:46:20
Speaker
Just please let me help to ooh how do we find a rich? I had a friend tell me the riches are in the niches. Very, very true. So this particular thing, we formed the company americatax.com.
00:46:31
Speaker
Believe it or not, it was available. I had Tony Taxes before that. Tonytaxes.us. I can tell you how many Google searches. Zero. Nobody found me. um It was funny. I liked it. It was niche. I had like a godfather theme to it, but nobody wanted that.
00:46:45
Speaker
ah We got americatax.com. We built a professional website. We paid someone to do it. I brought in a partner. Frankly, he was a guy that was like a believer. He approached me. He had a problem.
00:46:55
Speaker
He had – I won't get into his details, but he needed help. And he came just very – most people with tax problems, like you're afraid, like all the fear-mongering. So – I got him through it, so he was like a true believer.
00:47:08
Speaker
And then again, guy, you know, 50 years old, spit out of corporate America, yeah just trying to find his you know his way. And I knew a guy for 10 years, and so we just partnered up, and not one thing we've set out to do has worked, but everything has worked at the same time. It's been amazing. So we're like, we're going to do this, this, and this.
00:47:25
Speaker
We do it. Nobody cares. But at the same time, ah the universe just keeps dropping things on us. So like I know this is the right thing. So so now but we're both just kind of like you know two idiots just fighting through it. But like he knows a lot about business. I know. I mean, I'm very good at at this particular stuff. So the quality is good. Now we're just trying to figure out how to like package it and make it into like a repeatable, robust, you know operationally functioned business. But it's super fun, man. I have to say it's ah it's been incredible.
00:47:50
Speaker
So let's just zoom in on your on your tax startup. Sure. Tell us, like, in a minute, what are the capabilities you have? What are the services you offer?
00:48:03
Speaker
And why are you different? How are you different? How are you better? Like you said. How are we better? I can't answer. So what I would say is what we do differently is we actually meet our clients. So ah typically, so I would say the first thing we do is,
00:48:16
Speaker
As an American, you have to pay taxes. It's like the mafia. you're You got to wet the beak. There's no way around it. So every American anywhere in the world has to pay taxes. So our lowest, not lowest, but our basic service is helping you prepare those returns.
00:48:32
Speaker
and And not just prepare them. We try to prepare them in a way that you maximize your position. Tax law is not criminal law. If the laws were written clearly, I wouldn't have a job.
00:48:43
Speaker
They're written. But they have constant contradicting authorities or other things. So we look at your specific situation and we'll say, okay, you made this amount of money. This is how we're going to position you in your best interest, right? Take a risk-based approach.
00:48:57
Speaker
We're going to file your tax return and try to do it in a way that you're going to owe the least amount of taxes. But like I said, we we do an intro call, which I just assumed everyone did. But it turns out nobody does. So anyone who we meet, come in, half hour, free call. Just tell us what's going on.
00:49:12
Speaker
We're going to tell you what we do and take a step back. Let us know if you're interested. So the compliance they call, that's number one. Second thing we do a lot is there's ah there's quite a few Americans out there who haven't filed in a long time.
00:49:25
Speaker
They're just their in arrears. And it's one of those things. It's like if you got real fat and like you don't want to get on the scale, and it's just impossible to look at the scale. So we're just we're trying to get them on the scale. Like, listen, just... It's not as scary as you think it is.
00:49:37
Speaker
Just come in. We're going to find a way to kind of get you back into like good standing. That's a big chunk of business. Another thing we do is if people are working and they're operating like very high tax jurisdictions, we help them do some tax planning. Maybe open up a company here.
00:49:53
Speaker
We establish like a real meat and bones company with economic presence whereby, you know, Singapore has fantastic access to markets and stuff. But also you can, you know, make your position advantageous. So Tax planning for any kind of business.
00:50:06
Speaker
And the last thing that we're getting into is, um so as a CPA, i can do a certain amount of like... Advisory? Yes, like retirement planning. So I can do coaching.
00:50:17
Speaker
i can analyze your situation. i cannot right now give you specific investment advice, nor can I manage your funds. um Six months from now, we'll be able to do that. So we're getting a specific certification whereby we'll be able to offer those services specifically to Americans. um Singapore, every country has their own domicile law, so we're not going there. So those are like the meat and potatoes of like that business.
00:50:40
Speaker
The only other thing that lies kind of outside that is is similar to what I'm doing for Massachusetts. business consulting. So we have I have a couple of companies out here that you could run a gym, you could run a a hawker center.
00:50:51
Speaker
um You just please come in, let us know we're doing right, let us know we're not doing wrong. It could be from like an operational efficiency, it could be from a risk, compliance, I'm an an internal auditor certified as well. So um That is more bespoke because that's a pretty full on job. So we we take a few clients here and there specifically, but I would say that's the bread and mother of, um it's called American tax experts. How much of everything you describe is stumped by yourself?
00:51:17
Speaker
All of it right now. So right now it's myself, Chachi BT, AI, my buddy John. We've someone bringing on board right now. um This at present, I would say is not scalable until I am incredibly confident in our processes.
00:51:35
Speaker
There's a million accountants out there. People could do this, but they're paying us. We're not the cheapest firm. Like we're not a low cost provider. We're not a big four, but we we charge a decent amount of money. But people are expecting like when I meet them,
00:51:48
Speaker
they're expecting a certain level of service. So I would say we started last year. For me to say had this whole robust team would be would be nonsense. So right now, I want to run this until we have all of our technology stack integrated, we have our processes going on, and if and when we've gotten to the point that I'm so overwhelmed that we have to like turn away clients, um then we'll well we'll scale up.
00:52:10
Speaker
The difference is if you, as a client, if you hand the case to a big four or um any, I guess, round-of-the-mill's consultants, it might be done by an intern. it might be done by outsourced person somewhere else. It will be done because their service, might they can't afford that.
00:52:30
Speaker
yeah So it's it's everything done by a large company. It doesn't mean they're not good. There is a preparer, reviewer, a manager, a partner, period. and ok um I review a lot of... work done by big four and some are better than others for I won't I won't name names one of them is fantastic I mean um everything that comes through i'm I'm learning as I'm reading their stuff I've seen other ones that they're okay but you know and that's to get the price that you're currently getting which is astronomical that's you're not you know if you were Jeff Bezos you're gonna get their partners if you're McRid you're gonna get an intern no offense that's that's how it runs right yeah I think there's a point I wanted to come back to which is
00:53:09
Speaker
the efficiencies that big corporations or even corporate America, this machine we alluded to earlier, that brings to economic production and growth.
00:53:22
Speaker
right So, I mean, earlier we kind of shit on a lot about, you know at the individual level, how it extracts value ah from your mental health, from your physical health, depreciates your ah lifepan lifespan, literally.
00:53:37
Speaker
But on the other hand, just to give a more balanced perspective, right you have to give it to them that um how the system is designed under capitalism, you could have these gigantic corporations operate at a very efficient level, producing very stable level of record. And providing jobs for thousands of people that would not otherwise have what it takes to venture out on their own.
00:54:06
Speaker
you So for some part of the society, perhaps it's better for them to go through that path, to climb the corporate ladder. um But however, ah it doesn't mean that that should be the only option that everyone aimed for to start, right?
00:54:24
Speaker
And just to continue on your point, I mean, i was much younger when I worked in public accounting, but I never felt soulless there. I just felt very tired. So it it's it could be a high finance thing or maybe even the companies I dealt with. So I want to be, ah you may I like to be fair. um When I worked at Big Forward,
00:54:42
Speaker
there's no surprise that you're going to work very hard. Okay. But it didn't feel as, for lack of a better word, evil. It it just felt like a very, very tiring, hard job. like Because people kind of go, to go it's it's a different thing.
00:54:54
Speaker
Like you're going to get churned up you're going to get beat up, but it's not, there's a different type of underlying current that I felt in at least my companies and what I've heard from others in the high finance is very, very different. Like there's a certain...
00:55:06
Speaker
from a Venn diagram, corporate America's all this, and you layer on this with the other those other guys, and it's just different. But they do, a lot of people have very solid careers, and they they've they've carved out ah ah a wonderful life for themselves because of these companies.
00:55:19
Speaker
Right, yeah they don't want to brush off all the corporate America. Because the moral is always, if you're in one of these situations, how do you build resilience yourself and speak up and protect your own boundaries and mental health?
00:55:33
Speaker
And if you ever get to a point like you who decides to, this is the time we should move on, then what could be next, right? And how do you regain the instincts and your own abilities to survive in the wild, you know, to hunt for animals and food, and rather than just sitting there and starving and and wishing you had bread on the table.
00:55:57
Speaker
Yeah. so Speaking of hunting, I would say one thing I learned from a buddy. um In the very beginning, I was hunting for any business. I'll do anything for any amount of money. Worst approach. um What I've realized is, first of all, if you do a good job, people refer you and they're quite happy.
00:56:13
Speaker
And also just a subtle, like, if I was speaking to you, but like, if you know anybody, let me know, rather than can I please do your taxes? Yeah. Because, you know, i'm I'm, you know, part of like the sober recovery yeah is is service.
00:56:25
Speaker
Right. And um I have to like retrain because I do need money. Like I have kids, you know, but like if I can keep in front of my mind, like how I'm performing a service to help people. A, it's it's way more genuine and they genuinely are because I am helping them. Right. I've seen people come to me in tears or, you know, afraid to tell their partners about what's going on.
00:56:43
Speaker
That's made a big difference. So the hunt for me doesn't work. I'm not big on the marketing. I'm not big on the pitching. I'm not big on on the sales. I can't even price my projects. I have to let my partner do it. i'm just i i it's not It's not in me. You registered a website that no one would go to.
00:56:57
Speaker
Yes. That's right. Exactly. I thought it was hysterical though. That tells a lot of about your marketing skills. Terrible. I thought it was funny. Just for anyone, this we're going to retire the website. But it was it was like Tony Taxis was going have this mafia theme.
00:57:09
Speaker
and like the tagline was death and taxes we handle the taxes and i was going to make this whole big funny thing out of it like a serious company but a spoof because you know i don't take myself that serious i surprisingly nobody nobody went a couple of people did but very few yeah yeah but how is it now like i i guess your partner came out with the american taxes no he uh it was came up in a conversation i don't even know how i was looking at a website and just americatax.com was available so but for those of you ever interested, so basically the government owns every domain, every website, and they,
00:57:42
Speaker
Licensing through these domain service providers and then they sell them to you or lease them to you, frankly. um So you can't just go get one. Like you can't own it. So, you know, you you search them on every dot com was purchased many years ago by tech companies just because they know they're valuable. And then they just told them dormant for whatever reason, this was available. So when I when I looked it up, it like exploded out of the service providers. Go Daddy at the time to like this is available. like You got to buy this right now. Super expensive.
00:58:08
Speaker
But I'm like, ah, I'm cheap. But I'm like, that is worth the money. So I did it. And it's been it's been a go it's been a gold mine. it's Honestly, it's been it it looks it looks correct. It looks like if you were like, okay, I want a serious person. I'm actually wearing a suit in this particular one. Someone has a photo of me and ah in a shirt and tie. ah it looks It looks good. um It just it kind of carries that pedigree.
00:58:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also to make a point that to get to where you are today, 12 months out of your corporate job, that success attributes to the fact that you worked hard ah while you were working in corporate America and build up your resume skill sets that allowed you to venture out on your own. So,
00:58:51
Speaker
So like you said, the suites of services you provide is because you're good at it. and and And that's always the number one priority is you have to do a good job to be able to provide a service that people will buy.
00:59:04
Speaker
Yeah. Right. This is a heavy referral business. This is a heavy, you take care of somebody, they appreciate that type of business. Like it's an intimate relationship. Like if I do your taxes, I know all of your financial information.
00:59:16
Speaker
yeah So, you know, you you really have to to trust them. So and i anybody who comes in, I really appreciate and I want them to let them know that like, you know, we take this very seriously. Hence why I'm not scaling right now. I could hire people to do this for cheaper, but it's not, we're not there yet.
00:59:28
Speaker
We will be at some point, but we're not there yet. Did this not ever occur to you in the prior 20 years? To hang up a shingle and just be an accountant? So my plan was to retire at 50-ish. I always wanted to work, maybe not doing this. I was just going to open up like a cafe.
00:59:47
Speaker
on like the corner of where I lived and it would be a place where like people studied after school, the football team showed up, like we didn't make any money, but we're always open and everybody's in there and you know each other's families. Like kind of a break even type of thing because I'm an active guy. I wanted to stay involved and kind of give back to the community.
01:00:03
Speaker
No, I didn't because I didn't think I was going to i was going to kind of venture off this quickly. um But it's been fantastic. And even just ah just quickly on like the investment thing, I manage my own portfolio. I do very well.
01:00:14
Speaker
I never thought to even offer this, but we've had multiple clients. Like, can you do this for us? I'm like, so I just looked up and there's just one very particular exam that I can take, I think because I'm a CPA, that where I can offer advice. Because typically it's like, you know, huge exams like the CFA.
01:00:31
Speaker
Then you have to do 4,000 or 6,000 hours of service at a registered broker-dealer. I have to go back to it. you know, I'm not doing all that. So um even that, that came as like a pull factor. So, you know, it started as like tax and then...
01:00:44
Speaker
Basically, a lot of these services we started offering were people who came to us. Could you do this? And, you know, I take a look and some things I said, no, I can't i can't do that. Like um I'm too far removed from that particular aspect to to be able to help you. It's like law. Like a real estate attorney is not necessarily going to try your divorce or your you know your criminal case. Like, you know, you know what you know and you don't know. But if it if it's in an area that we think we can get into and we think we can get there quickly, then we we give it a shot.
01:01:10
Speaker
So, I mean, looking at where you are today, i guess in a lot better shape mentally and physically. Yeah. How much of it is because you kind of on a more stable footing in your business, the money started flowing in and you're actually working yeah with a more regular schedules and how much is because of the absence of that prior environment. Great question. In the yeah corporate world. Yeah.
01:01:36
Speaker
I had a um ah had a ah previous therapist, neuroscientist, that I'm going to use his example because it was way better than what I come up with. He said, like, it's asking what ingredient in the soup makes it taste good. he's like, I can't tell you. So I i actually can't tell you that.
01:01:51
Speaker
The sleep pattern, I wear the Oura Ring. um I don't work for them. But, you know, it is, I like to know and my sleep patterns are way better. And now that like I'm wearing this and tracking it, I can tell when I'm off.
01:02:02
Speaker
So sleep is a huge deal. um I'm very busy, right? I mean, running company is very, very busy. I'm not resentful at all. So even when I'm exhausted, I'm not exhausted and angry and it's a different type of tired.
01:02:14
Speaker
So I would say heavily because I switched environments and as much as I'm Obviously not thrilled with my previous one. I mean, listen, i it was a day work for a day pay. I signed up there voluntarily. I appreciate the pay and what I learned. I'm not, you know, I'm just i'm just trying to call it for the people who are suffering, not to disparage them as much as to empower the people who need it.
01:02:33
Speaker
um I would say it's ah probably more so that I'm not there than I have this. But I am fired up. Like, it's Sunday. and i'm I'm working today. Like, I have things. i've got like I want to take care of my clients. Like, people come in.
01:02:45
Speaker
had guy come in last week. We're talking. And I just found out he's talking about this year. So the 2024 return was due in March or April. And we have until October for an extension. I'm like, wait, you didn't? He's like, no. I'm like, ah. So, like...
01:02:57
Speaker
I wanna get started, like he needs my help. what mean? So there's stuff like that. And then um I know just, this is a shameless the plug. ah The AI training has been, that is, to me that is way, I mean, taxes is cool, but it's because like you have to pay taxes,
01:03:13
Speaker
but You come to me because you have to pay taxes. We can make it as exciting and sexy as we want, but you're paying, you know, versus the the training that we put together. Like I firmly believe that in five years, either everybody's gonna be using these tools,
01:03:27
Speaker
Or you're going to be out of a job. It's going to be like that internet like 20 years ago. or You know what mean? It's just this is not an option. So what we want to do is just empower people. Like my wife has never used it. Like people who like frankly 40s and above even if my wife's not 40.
01:03:42
Speaker
ah You know. who just haven't gotten into it yet. So it's just, it's a practical workshop that like you can walk out of this with something you can do immediately. um Everyone i've I've sent to is is excited. We've done a couple of demos. We haven't landed. I have a couple of pretty big meetings next week.
01:03:58
Speaker
ah But like the tax I'm excited about because I have a skillset, this is like, guys, I started last year and look at where we are and look what we can do. So it's it's almost like we can honestly all get there together because i don't see any other way around it.
Adapting to Technological Advancements
01:04:12
Speaker
Is your AI training targeting accountants or ah financial executives, CFOs, of that sort of people? No, it's it's so to be fair, my my I had a guy I was working with on it who's still kind of a legacy partner.
01:04:26
Speaker
It's called Practic AI, like practical ah practical AI. It's honestly for anyone. Like, so I've had, I've sent it to six different industries, ah educational industries, like executives at companies, accountants, salespeople, and you can tailor it so easily to what they do. So it's basically like anybody.
01:04:46
Speaker
and you It could be for people who stay at home. like you know Anything that you're doing, you can use these tools to make it better. um um but So it's not targeted towards anyone specifically. I would say that the way the training unfolds, it's just basic. How do you get started? What are these terms that everyone throws around? If you don't know what they mean, this is what they mean.
01:05:06
Speaker
This is how you prompt. And then like within an hour, like, all right, let's dive right in. Here's like my top 10 use cases that I think anyone would want to use. Reviewing a document, crafting an email, doing a comparison analysis for vendors. like And then if I'm meeting with like an accountant, um I'll have very specific sector examples for them.
01:05:25
Speaker
um And then about, you know, within like 30% in the class, it's kind of like an open market. Like, so, you know, who, what are you dealing with you, Joe, right now? You tell me if I can't build that model on the spot with no prior information,
01:05:42
Speaker
then I shouldn't be given this training. And and um the point of that is not that I'm so wonderful. Like, this is so intuitive and helpful that you should be able to walk out of here. I should be able to assist anyone with anything they're talking about. with I mean, a basic background of what that is.
01:05:56
Speaker
but I'm quite surprised that even in today's day and age, there's still a market for it, given how many like YouTube videos are there, how many books are written about it, and how many other ways to learn this.
01:06:09
Speaker
I, so I'm surprised, but then again, I started last year. So who am I kidding? Um, I think what is happening is people are so busy. Yeah. Especially, like I said, I want to say four days and above. I'm just making up that number.
01:06:21
Speaker
Yeah. You're so busy. Like I don't have time to look at that thing to get started. First of all, your brain ages differently. So learning new things becomes very difficult as you get older. Like literally recall is easier. Learning new things is harder. That's not my science. Neuroscience.
01:06:34
Speaker
um So there are there are tons of people who haven't used this at all. um So I agree with you. I'm surprised as well. And so all of my old bosses who are like pretty senior partners and accounting firms and stuff, the last time I met with them was in March.
01:06:48
Speaker
like When I go home, I meet them. And all of them are like, yeah, I haven't started. So I'm like, listen, just do A, B, and C. like two days ago, I texted me like, oh my God, I did A, B, and C. It's amazing. i'm like, I know, it's amazing. So like i said, I think within two to five years, which is an arbitrary number, there won't be a market for this.
01:07:04
Speaker
But the problem is the people who haven't adopted are going to have lost their jobs by then, I'm afraid. It's moving that quickly. I'm not a quantum computing guy, but it just seems like it's going that fast. So in the meanwhile, this kind of raises everybody's water level. Like you're going to keep yourself marketable. you're going to keep yourself employed. You know, it's... it's A win-win, yes, I'm getting paid, but I'm getting paid to provide you a service that I genuinely think is making your life better.
01:07:28
Speaker
And the way that like I'm pitching it to people I've told, like if these students, or whatever you want to call them, if they don't walk out with like three to five things that they can do immediately, then the training has failed.
01:07:38
Speaker
This is not me talking at you a bunch of concepts. This is supposed to be like a practical workshop where like we actually work through what we're talking about together. And they go back, and then all the companies become more successful.
Complexities of U.S. Tax Laws
01:07:50
Speaker
ah Given the interest of time, can we go back to the tax business? Sure. I'm generally more interested in that, um ah given I have zero background in filing American taxes. Yes.
01:08:03
Speaker
So for for those who, you know, non-American citizens, tell us why American tax is particularly painful. Sure. um OK, so it's not the most comprehensive set of laws. I think Germany has more tax literature. But so the United States is one of, I believe, two countries in the world that that no matter where you're living and working, you're still subject to tax.
01:08:28
Speaker
Okay. So if you're from the UK and you move to Singapore and you live in Singapore and you work in Singapore, you pay Singapore tax, not in America, no matter where you go or what you do, you pay tax.
01:08:41
Speaker
Okay. That's issue number one. So you can't escape. Uh, Then so that becomes even more complicated that you have to start to coalesce the local tax laws and the U.S. tax laws, because depending on what you're doing abroad or where you're doing it, who you're doing it with, that changes the laws.
01:08:59
Speaker
Also, in case you haven't heard. The U.S. government doesn't necessarily always see eye to eye on everything internally. So the way that the tax code was written, even though it's independent, it was heavily lobbied and heavily kind of pushed through. So you'll have a baseline U.S. Constitution, which gives the right to tax.
01:09:18
Speaker
Then you'll layer on like the initial tax code. You'll just start layering things on top of these. You'll have U.S. tax treaties. So every other country in the world that I know of, If there's a US tax treaty with another country, that is this that is the providing legislation.
01:09:34
Speaker
in united states if some other body wrote some other law that can actually supersede the treaty so first of all typical u.s style another country is like why am i gonna have a treaty with you if you can just override that on your own but then you have the internal revenue code you have the certain senate it like finance committee they may come out stuff the treasury like other different parts of um the government i don't know them all specifically can kind of start legislation, which gets up that contradicts other legislation. So it's super confusing.
01:10:04
Speaker
It's constantly changing. um Donald Trump just came in and released some bill that like overrode a bunch of stuff and changed a bunch of stuff. So you have to stay on top of it. um It is built in a way that if you know what you're doing,
01:10:18
Speaker
and you're not a standard waged employee, you have more benefits. What does that mean? I work for Starbucks. Starbucks pays me. At the end of the year, they say, this is what we paid you. You file a tax return in US.
01:10:31
Speaker
Not that much we can do. There's some planning we can do, but not a ton. If you have like investment income or you have dividends and capital gains, there's a little bit more you can do. If you open up a small business and start putting things through the business, a little bit more you can do.
01:10:44
Speaker
If you move overseas, little bit more you can do. So it becomes super complicated. um It's also not straightforward, which I said before. So I have clients come in who want to know, how do I do this? What are my legal responsibilities? And for most things I've seen, there'll be at least two competing authorities.
01:11:03
Speaker
For example, I'm going to put this out there. Singapore Central Provident Fund, CPF, okay? Is that mandated government-sponsored Social Security or is that an investment vehicle?
01:11:16
Speaker
it's kind of both, right? If you're a permanent resident of Singapore, you are mandated to do this. So on one hand, you could kind of look at that you'd like to look at US Social Security. But within the special account, you could change your investments and and buy certain products kind of through the SRS system. It's not exactly like that. But so it's also kind of like an investment vehicle.
01:11:39
Speaker
So which internal revenue code applies? Depends who you talk to. So my job is not to tell a client what to do. I want to do my best to put the laws forth in front of them, let you know this is what the IRS wants you to do.
01:11:55
Speaker
It wants you to give it all your money. That's what that would IRS wants, all your money, so they can do God knows what with it. In the most ah ah other side of the stream, you just don't do anything, which is illegal, right? yeah I wouldn't recommend that.
01:12:08
Speaker
But or h rather than just the Wild West of just making things up, well, what if we found a competent authority that supported our position like the Social Security for the CPF?
01:12:19
Speaker
And we say, well, we're not interpreting the law that way. We're interpreting the law this way.
Navigating Tax Laws and IRS Compliance
01:12:23
Speaker
We're going to take a position that this means X, Y, Z. We're going to report our income this way. We're going to tax our income this way. Now, the IRS might not like that.
01:12:31
Speaker
they may disagree with you. But in my experience, if you've taken a position that is valid and that has substance, they can't just like bang you over the head with penalties like and like you didn't like you just made it up because you didn't, right? You can disagree, you can make us pay tax, you can get us to pay interest, but theoretically, you would have used those funds to invest otherwise. So like it's kind of a wash, it's a timing thing. So that's where it gets super complicated. When I worked at my previous company and companies,
01:13:00
Speaker
You know, we would lobby governments. I really liked the tax departments of both of those. So as much as I hated finance, I genuinely liked those. The the teams were cool. I felt super, I felt like at home there. um And so we we would read these laws, complicated laws, come up with the draft technical memorandums, figure out to implement it, and then defend it on audit, which I did all of those things. I interpreted a law.
01:13:21
Speaker
I wrote a memorandum with our position. I got all of our financial data, put it into a calc built the calculation, put it in there to support the position. filed the tax returns, end if headed on audit and won.
01:13:32
Speaker
So like I've done it all. Now, I'm not saying other people haven't, but I have done every single stage in that process. I feel super confident. Does that mean that I'm going to win every single position we take? No.
01:13:43
Speaker
But to be fair, this why it's back to the client. I'm going to lay out the facts and circumstance. This is my experience. This is what I think you can do. I'll go as far say this is what I would do. If it was me, not you, I would do this.
01:13:54
Speaker
What's your level of risk tolerance? Where do you want to go? Because on top of all of that, The IRS is doing its best to gather data, but it's not Singapore. It doesn't have everything. They've gotten way more coordinated with like Homeland Security and stuff. Like they have better data than they used to for sure.
01:14:09
Speaker
So it's not like the Wild West. You can just like not tell them anything, but they have to get the data. You have to be important to them. They have to have a budget. They have to have people to enforce this. Then they have to find you. Then they have to read this, disagree with you. Like there's a lot of steps between A and B. So – Not that we're going to contradict real quick. We're going to get everything to Supreme Court to like litigate a case. But we're just trying to put people in a good position because why would you pay $100,000 legal position to pay and that that's where that's where we are So what happens every year? Then you said there's a filing season.
01:14:44
Speaker
And ah does the IRS usually come with a mail letter, tell you this is how much they think you will pay, but they always err on the high side, given what they know. And then you come in help the client.
01:14:57
Speaker
You go back with a with the rebuttal and then maybe... And they come back say, OK, fine, then then you pay this. Is that how the process works? So I'm goodnna so this is i'm going to give free tax advice right now.
01:15:10
Speaker
So this is if my partner is watching, I'm sorry. ah No, it doesn't work like that. i This is why i'm not good at ah I'm not a good businessman because I want to empower people. So there are two ways that the IRS receives information.
01:15:25
Speaker
One way is through reporting from other companies. The example, I worked at Starbucks. Starbucks paid me $10. They tell the IRS they paid me $10. And then they tell me they paid me $10.
01:15:38
Speaker
IRS knows that. You better report that $10 and you better pay your taxes appropriately. I mean, this is just straight up stuff. If you have bank accounts in the United States or brokerage accounts in the United States and you have interest, dividends, capital gains, all of that gets reported to the IRS the same way it's reported to you.
01:15:56
Speaker
So hopefully Starbucks told you they paid you $10. Hopefully, I'm going to say Citibank. I'm just pointing out. They said that they paid you X, Y, Z. So you get the same data that IRS does.
01:16:07
Speaker
And you get this stuff and you put it into your tax return and you pay your tax. So the one way is like what I would call, don't know, dual reporting. It's not the right word, but everybody has the same information, right?
01:16:18
Speaker
So that is like you you need to get that right. Fans, if you're unsure what happened this year, there is something called the IRS Wage and Income Transcript.
01:16:31
Speaker
It is incredibly unknown. If you log into the IRS and you type in IRS Wage and Income Transcript, You will need a login through something called ID.me.
01:16:43
Speaker
So it's a very specific government login whereby like you need a passport, they'll do a video call, they have to verify it's really you. You get to that point, you can log into the system and you will find out exactly what the IRS knows.
01:16:55
Speaker
So you can log in. Now, this gets released in late April of the following year. Your tax return is due in, sorry, late May of the following year. Your tax return is due in April.
01:17:07
Speaker
So I would recommend going on extension. Go on extension, log in, find out what the IRS knows. That way you know what they know just to make – just in case Citibank didn't send you something, you can get it right.
01:17:20
Speaker
Guaranteed every time. um Every person I've told that to is like, huh? To be fair, I didn't know that until last year. i had a friend tell me. So fantastic. So that is the known income sources. One way information gets to the IRS. yeah The second is the honor system.
01:17:36
Speaker
Outside of those few sources I told you, in my experience, the IRS has absolutely no idea what goes on. Not that they don't get reporting, but they don't get it in a way that they can calculate it and process it and be 100% certain. So like the wages I earned in Singapore from a foreign entity, I self-reported to the IRS.
01:17:57
Speaker
If you run a business overseas, you self-report that. If you have a foreign bank account, you self-report that. Now, you should you should report it. right They ask you to. They ask you to report informationally all of these accounts, and they have punitive, punitive, punitive damages if you don't. They don't like when you don't tell them what's going on.
01:18:16
Speaker
Can we talk about that? What would mean if you don't file the tax where you falsify? Yeah, so there's there's a few things. So just just to wrap up. So there's there's there's stuff they there's stuff they don't know. but they But the IRS law is stated like, we're not responsible for knowing. You're responsible for telling us.
01:18:31
Speaker
Just like they're responsible telling us the law. As a taxpayer, I'm responsible to know the law. Even the IRS instructions... The instructions that are attached to the form do not hold legislative weight.
01:18:43
Speaker
If they wanted to say, no, we we produce those for your convenience. You're supposed to know every one of these regulations that goes up above these things. So would they ever contract their own instructions? Probably not, but they actually don't hold legislat legislative authority. So a couple of things.
01:18:57
Speaker
If you don't file a tax return. A, do they know or not? Number one, okay? There are lots and lots of people don't file tax returns. Do they follow up on all of them? No. um Why? I don't know, frankly.
01:19:09
Speaker
Because you would think every adult over a certain age responds to file tax return if you made more than like some de minimis amount of money. So to your earlier question, do they just tell you what you think you know and then make you fight it? No. Most times they don't send out anything, which is surprises me. But maybe that changes with Elon and Doge and all this stuff. I don't know.
01:19:28
Speaker
But so there's two types of things. There's reporting, informational reporting with no tax liability. And then there's tax reporting. There's something called FBAR, which is this does not go to the IRS. This goes to, I think, FinCEN and some other departments where you need to report every year all of your financial accounts, bank accounts, investment accounts, stuff like that.
01:19:53
Speaker
And it's just information. I have a UOB account. This is the account number. And my maximum balance last year was $45. You have to report over $10,000. I'm just using an example.
01:20:04
Speaker
um So there's informational reporting. And there's punitive damages, fines, penalties, stuff like that. Could it be imprisonment? I don't know. I'm not going to pretend I know every aspect of that. You'd probably have to have done some pretty you know pretty severe things to get to that level.
01:20:19
Speaker
um But that's not even an IRS thing. Then you have within the IRS tax filings and information filings. um Again, penalties, interests. I mean, I...
01:20:31
Speaker
So I'm going to stop here because I don't like to speak unless I know what I'm talking about. And frankly, I have not seen like these horrible things that could happen. I know what some of the dodgy providers that are out in specifically in Asia, um basically scare people into paying them a lot of money.
01:20:52
Speaker
The IRS is going to arrest you. They're going to take your passport as soon as you go to U.S. All these horrible things. Now, Could they do those things? Maybe. I don't know. I've never heard of any of those things. um I've done some research that contradicts most of that.
01:21:05
Speaker
But I don't know for a fact. But I would say from a cash standpoint, they can be super punitive. Like they'll have things that are like $1,000 $5,000 $10,000 per misfiling.
01:21:18
Speaker
and they could interpret a filing as each page of a return So if you had like 100 pages due, if they want it to be really litigious, and they could say each one's 1,000 or 5,000, they can get you. They can really bang you over the head with penalties that way. And they know you have a sale of 100 pages because – If they found out. So so first would be like the detection risk. Yeah.
01:21:39
Speaker
yeah they they have They do get data and they get some type of signal where they're like, we want to go after this particular thing or investigate it further. Then fine. They don't do that to everybody. Then fine. Then they may make like an accusation, for lack of a better phrase. That's not what they do. But they're basically like, OK, we think it's this. Now you have to defend yourself.
01:21:57
Speaker
Now, this is where I will say that it could get scary because um tax law is different than criminal law, whereby criminal law in United States... You're innocent until proven guilty. You hear this all the time.
01:22:11
Speaker
In tax law, you're kind of guilty until proven innocent. So if they make a claim, you're responsible to defending yourself. And if you can't, then that claim stands. um It has to be reasonable, but the IRS is not unreasonable. They're they're not just going to go randomly attack people and impose pines for no reason.
01:22:26
Speaker
um They're using the data they have available to collect the money they believe is is due to them to basically provide for the citizenship, the defense, and everything else that goes into United States government. So um And the last thing I'll say, and um IRS, these are not all these animals. and he's like I've had people call the IRS. I've called them.
Client Services and Tax Guidance
01:22:42
Speaker
They're very pleasant. These are hardworking people that are just trying to do their job for the most part. And if you treat them as such, I've never had any bad relationship with them, anyone, or even clients I've sent in um to talk to them and kind of like coach them on these are what you say. They get off the phone like, that was really nice.
01:22:58
Speaker
Like, yeah. They're happy to hear from someone who's trying to do the right thing. You'd be amazed. um That's not the phone to phone call they get every day. I won't make fun of them. They still use fax machines. They are incredibly behind in terms of technology. So I would love for them to get to the 21st century, but they're not there yet.
01:23:16
Speaker
do Is there a cutoff for your potential clients at what income level above only, let's say? In terms who I take on? Who you take No, I take anybody on. i if Okay, if you were if you made very little money and your situation was plain vanilla,
01:23:35
Speaker
I wouldn't recommend paying me. you know, certain tax softwares will offer free. I don't know how they do this, but like TurboTax like is free. You just log in, you type in these four numbers, they'll tell you what you owe. So I think that it would make sense for a client to hire um someone like us if your situation was a little bit more nuanced.
01:23:55
Speaker
So if you're making like a standard wage in United States and you don't mind logging into this system and you're familiar with technology and you have some time on your hands, I would do it yourself, frankly. Um,
01:24:06
Speaker
Can we put a number on that? Like what? A couple hundred thousand dollars. No, and no, I know i it wouldn't be. i would say it's even I don't think the number matters because if it was just if it was just like a waged employee, yeah the that income doesn't matter.
01:24:23
Speaker
It's just like you get a higher tax rates, but the complexity to be exactly the same. I would say that if you just can't be bothered. like i So I meet people who are like you know very charismatic and they're salesmen or whatever.
01:24:36
Speaker
And they look at tax like I look at asking a girl out on a date. I i never, ever want to have to do that. So if that's your case, then yeah, then then hire us, right? But like if you don't mind using technology and numbers don't break your brain and it's quite simple, I would do it.
01:24:50
Speaker
um One thing we offer, this is going to sound like a shameless plug, is um we offer a very inexpensive review for people. So for example – If you're hiring another accountant and you're like, i don't know if they're doing a good job.
01:25:04
Speaker
We'll do like ah a review of your return for like 100 bucks. If it's a simple return, you ask 100. We just look at it and I'll come back to you very quickly and say, listen, either A, they're doing a good job and then peace of mind for the 100 bucks or like, eh, they're missing some stuff. This is what I recommend. And then we take it from there.
01:25:20
Speaker
Or if people doing it themselves. And they're like, ah, maybe I'm, do I want to, do I want to pay somebody? We'll give you like a one-time review of your situation. I mean, it's obviously not a huge cash flow for us, but there's a lot of people out there that just unsure.
01:25:34
Speaker
And it's kind of half service, half income for us. You know, we'll we'll take a look. We'll give you peace of mind whether you want to come to And we're honest about, you know. um I would say 80% of the time they are missing something. or And it's funny. The people who were like, oh, I think my account stinks, they'll and like, actually, pretty good.
01:25:49
Speaker
And I'm like, he's actually, his fee's pretty good. I'm like, I think you're getting a pretty good deal you know You may not like it, but they're quality service and and their and their return is quality. All right. ah My last question to you is what level of tax when you owe to the IRS that you you would be put on their watch list you know in a way that… Oh, man. These are great questions, by the way. And apologies. I'm getting a little naisy. I'm a little sick, so i'm having a hard time breathing out of my nose.
01:26:16
Speaker
um When should you be worried that the possibility will become reality? That's a great question. I i don't know. um So I would say that name recognition might matter.
01:26:27
Speaker
So if you're like importance person or a famous person, I won't name names, but if they know who you are, that's a pretty quick thing for them to find. If you're anonymous per se, um again, if if if it's if you're anonymous and you're sitting in a situation where like they have your information, they're going to come after you right away.
01:26:45
Speaker
So option one that I told you, wages, interest, dividends, capital gains from U.S. companies, they're going to come after you right away. They have all the data. If you're running a business whereby they don't exactly know how much money you're making or you're overseas, then they might look at bank account activity.
01:27:02
Speaker
ah So in terms of – because they may not know what you owe. Like you could have a bank account with millions of transactions in and out, but it's not really income. I don't know what you're doing, but it's not income per se. It's hard for me to know.
01:27:13
Speaker
What I would say is most people – because about 30% of my business is people who owe money and haven't filed. And they're coming to me with the tail between their legs. I think the the larger that black cloud is hanging over your head, the faster I'd call somebody because it's, I can see it affecting their quality of life.
01:27:32
Speaker
I have people who just, oh, and they just, like it's like, they don't know how to get started. So what's the bright line? I don't know. i think their data is going to continue to get better. I think that their ability to find people is going to continue to get better.
01:27:43
Speaker
So I would say if you're out there, it's it's worth looking at. Um, They have procedures that if you've been in arrears for a long time, like they want you to come back in compliance. So they offer things if you have reasonable circumstances like, listen, come back in, pay the tax, a little bit of interest. Let's get you back on the – that's a smart thing to do.
01:28:03
Speaker
Got it.
Conclusion and Contact Information
01:28:04
Speaker
All right. I think we'll wrap up there. um Ending on a free tax advice for those who followed us until now, which it was a pretty long rant from when we began. I think it's probably an hour and 30 minutes ago.
01:28:17
Speaker
But hey, thanks so much for coming on the show. And I'm really happy to hear that you're in a much better position now compared to the cliff that we fell off from since our last podcast.
01:28:29
Speaker
Yes. And if I have another breakdown, I'll come find you. Yeah. And for those who are interested, i will... ah definitely put the websites, the LinkedIn contacts, whatever, in the show notes so people can reach out to you. Sounds good.
01:28:40
Speaker
Thanks a lot, McRae. It'd be great to be here.