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EP18 YH Hwang: Ex-MBB Consultant Decodes the Good, Bad and Ugly of Consulting
109 Plays4 months ago
What do McKinsey, Bain and BCG (MBB) consultants actually do? In this episode, YH Hwang takes us inside the world of management consulting: from navigating on-campus recruiting at Cornell to cracking case interviews and tackling high-stakes client projects. We talk candidly about the grind, the culture, and what life as a young consultant is really like behind the LinkedIn polish.
YH is a Cornell University graduate and former MBB consultant, where he spent four years advising Fortune 500 clients across strategy, project management, and due diligence in New York and Hong Kong. He later transitioned into corporate development at a Hong Kong conglomerate and is now an MBA candidate at London Business School. With experience spanning the Ivy League, Wall Street consulting culture, and Asia’s corporate landscape, YH brings a rare global perspective on ambition and career building.
Timestamps
(00:00:00) Introduction
(00:04:59) From Shanghai High School To Ivy League
(00:21:39) On-Campus Recruiting
(00:32:19) The Target Schools Recruiting Process
(00:38:21) Hacking Into Hackathon
(00:46:36) Landing Full-Time Job at MBB
(00:52:01) Decoding Consulting
(00:53:49) McKinsey vs Bain vs BCG
(01:01:42) Consulting Pricing & Business Model
(01:04:15) The Consulting Learning Curve
(01:07:10) The Most Defining Project
(01:12:28) Most Stressful Moments
(01:26:53) Principles To Life & Careers
Disclaimer: This podcast is an independent personal project and is not affiliated with or endorsed by any employer or organization. All views expressed are solely those of the host and guests. The content is for information and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, legal, tax, or professional advice. The host, guests, and associated parties assume no liability for any actions taken based on this content.
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Transcript
College Memories and Early Career Moves
00:00:00
Speaker
Thanks for coming on the show, Eric. Literally on your last 12 hours in Singapore. Yeah. You're flying out next morning to Taipei. Yeah. um Spending the last night with me, um it means a lot. to So ah Eric and I met in college at Cornell.
00:00:22
Speaker
We were both class of 2019. And afterwards, I came to Singapore. um Eric, after a short work ah period in New York, moved to Hong Kong.
00:00:33
Speaker
And ah this past two months, um we were fortunate to cross path again ah when Eric decided to do his MBA internship ah in Singapore.
International Upbringing and Career Path
00:00:47
Speaker
Um, so why don't we just have a quick introduction of yourself, of where you grew up, where you went to school and, uh, what did you do, uh, in your career before the MBA?
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. um And thanks for having me. um I was joking beforehand, but, you know, this this is a cool activity that a lot of people are doing.
00:01:10
Speaker
um I've watched some of your previous episodes. It's cool. And, you know, to be part of this experience, it's it's it's taking like a tick off the bucket list for me. Yeah.
00:01:23
Speaker
But yeah, romantic dinner, ah romantic last night um at Singapore. But yeah, background of myself, um Cornell was my first time in the U.S., but You know, moving around places have always been a big part of what I wanted to you know do in life. I think it's it's a dream of so many people, right, to travel places, to see different um views, have different experiences.
00:01:53
Speaker
um So my family is from Taiwan, but I actually grew up in Shanghai, right? and and moved to U.S. for school, for college. on I wanted that, you know, short experience in the States before moving back to Asia.
Transitioning to Hong Kong During COVID
00:02:08
Speaker
And I was fortunate enough to do that with a year in New York at one of the consulting firms there and then transferred to Hong Kong ah when COVID hit.
00:02:21
Speaker
So that that was a, I mean, it was it was a good timing because, you know, I still had that one year of experience under the belt. And in Hong Kong, which is an interesting geography, an office that I could be working on project that is with the Southeast Asia teams, um as well as with Greater China, whether it's in Hong Kong or um some cases in Shanghai, right?
00:02:47
Speaker
So that was quite a fun experience. How many years were you in management consulting? um Three and a half years. yeah I also had around a half year time in back to Taiwan to serve military service.
00:03:03
Speaker
um And then I did around close to a year at another conglomerate in Hong Kong under their corporate a development team. and ah And that's the kind of the last experience you had before and MBA, right? Right, right, right. So where are you doing the MBA now?
Choosing London Business School for MBA
00:03:22
Speaker
MBA now, I'm in London. um So that that's the the the next move, right? London Business School. So um the essential thought, long story is short, is just that I've been in the U.S. I'm familiar with Asia.
00:03:35
Speaker
i did an exchange in London during junior year of college. And so I always knew that I loved the place that it's ah It's a spot that I would go back to um and figure that was the right timing to do it.
00:03:50
Speaker
um Well, okay, i I could start, you know, from a lot of different angles, given your wealth of experience across the world. ah But I think that if you were to summarize kind of your identity as a professional, it would be a strategy consultant. Am am I right?
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is the the first job for all of us is really the one that shapes the You know, our work tendencies, um thought processes, and and just a wayos ways of working, right? It's just such, ah same as, I guess, in college. It's the first time that, for most of us, first time living um outside of home, away from parents. So by yourself, you're forming that adult identity.
00:04:42
Speaker
And the first work as well, that's that's that's how we form our habits. And so, yeah, you're right. um I think management consulting by training and wherever I go later, I think that, you know, that identity is part of me right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:59
Speaker
Well put, well put. um ah Maybe before we jump into your career, we can pull back the timeline to before college. I mean, um I had the opportunity to study abroad before college. I was in Canada before, so I had a a little bit of exposure to the Western education system.
00:05:22
Speaker
And then um actually transferred to Cornell after first year. So, which means I never had that understanding of, you know, how actually how difficult it is to get into an Ivy League school from the super competitive pool of high schools in Asia.
From Shanghai to Strategy Consultant
00:05:41
Speaker
Okay. okay So yeah I imagine you must be one of the top students.
00:05:45
Speaker
Well, I, you know, thanks for that impression. I hope people think the same, right? But I think that's a, it's also an overstatement um that, ah you know, there are a lot of like qualified and smart classmates um that I had that, you know, not necessarily, um not like Ivy League, but they're smarter than me in so many ah different ways. But my my experience is quite unusual.
00:06:17
Speaker
um Because I was in Shanghai at such a young age, um my my parents actually put me ah international school to begin with. So my while while I spoke you know Mandarin at home, the first language that I was taught in school is English.
00:06:36
Speaker
um And i think that's why i you know early on i always had an you know an itch to go to the U.S. s um But...
00:06:48
Speaker
I say that because, yeah know, it sort of like builds up to how I get to Cornell, right? um Around sixth grade, this is when my dad realized that my Chinese just sucks, like horrible.
00:07:02
Speaker
um and And I remember like he was so he was so pissed off. he was he he vs I can't forget this line. He said, you know, what's so good about knowing English? Because homeless people in America knows English too. You're Chinese. You should know Chinese.
00:07:18
Speaker
And he was so he was massively disappointed because I could barely write or read um you know anything sophisticated. It's a classic classic ah disappointment from Asian parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's how he's straightening our face. So he just like, you know, he was like, no more of this, um you know, pure international school. You're going to a local school of an international division um and properly learn Chinese.
00:07:46
Speaker
um And that's that's when I just started to really... learn that language. um I was around a lot of other Taiwanese folks as well. um And i think with that environment, people are still thinking about um going abroad, whether it's the US or UK, Australia or Hong Kong, Singapore.
00:08:10
Speaker
um And at the time, actually, I was thinking either would be Hong Kong or Singapore or Australia, just because it would be closer to home. um What really, i guess, pushed me to do the States was actually just FOMO. um The itch that i was talking about, um plus all my my, I guess, closer friends, the one that i the ones that i compete with from a grades perspective or even sports.
00:08:39
Speaker
um They were going to the States and I didn't want to you know miss that experience. um So it was it was almost like, you know, that I really want to try and see if I could get something for myself.
00:08:51
Speaker
um So, yeah, that was the motivation. i don't know that was a long-winded answer, but if I missed any part that you wanted to ask more about. Yeah, you you missed the whole point. Were you a top student or not? Oh, yes, yes. um Top 30, maybe? Top 30.
00:09:09
Speaker
But the thing with U.S. s schools, and you know this too, there's there's so much emphasis on extracurriculars, right? yeah And it's it's an increasingly hard um path because you can't just be good with one subject.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah. you have to show a certain passion for that subject, whether it's through um competitions or your own projects. um And I think through the admissions essays, there that's what they're trying to see if that comes out, right?
00:09:41
Speaker
Instead of just a person who um is great at test taking.
00:09:48
Speaker
So what was your ah kind of you the resume resumee you brought to the admission officer there? What do you try to make yourself stand out? um I think the thing that helped the most at the time was me being a student council president.
00:10:03
Speaker
That was the activity that I was most involved with since middle school up to like high school. Right. um And because of that,
00:10:15
Speaker
experience, like activity, I was very close with our school director, principal, um the the teachers. And so like they they were a strong like support for me.
00:10:28
Speaker
And this comes in with, say, a recommendation essays, right? Like, These people, they know you best. They can write um in ways that you don't know about yourself as well.
00:10:41
Speaker
um And that adds to the application as well. So I i think that really helped me um make the case. um I applied to the hotel program in Cornell, right?
00:10:54
Speaker
um And the the positioning was really all about um me wanting to learn business, um but through that hospitality scope.
00:11:06
Speaker
And I sort of, the the narrative was essentially um me being with involved in student council, that was like the leadership aspect, but I enjoyed doing it because it was connecting with people, um a lot of events or administrative stuff as well, um but both from an academic, but also extracurriculars for the grade. Right.
00:11:30
Speaker
um And so I think that's what sort of spoke to the admissions team at Cornell, seeing that connection with hospitality or relationship building, which, yeah, again, connects with business in a broader sense.
Surprising Admission to Cornell
00:11:45
Speaker
it Was it surprise to you that you were admitted? um no it definitely is a surprise. um like i that The thing with um international schools in China, right?
00:11:59
Speaker
it I think it's it's super hard to say if you can get into any um any school. So for for my school, as a reference, right, I think Cornell took one person the year before me.
00:12:13
Speaker
um I don't know how it is now, um but... it's almost like a bet. I don't know whether or not our school has certain quotas with whatever universities.
00:12:25
Speaker
um But yeah, it was just something that I don't want to you know miss out and say, oh, I didn't apply, so I'll never know that result, right? Yeah. Yeah. ah how How much time did you spend studying um outside of classrooms when you were in Shanghai, like outside of the Chinese education system? um i must admit, like, contrary, not like your, your i I don't know if I should say the average Chinese, but yeah I hate studying or I don't go to these like extra classes.
00:12:56
Speaker
Some people do. So I've not taken like an SAT class, for example. are how like My parents' house rule is... At minimum, they hope I can study two hours a day outside of um school.
00:13:12
Speaker
And looking back, that's ah that's a good habit to have formed. um Their rationale is, you know, in Taiwan, everyone goes to these, which is, you know, after school, you have to you you have to take math or you have to do whatever.
00:13:25
Speaker
yeah um Be ahead of the be ahead of the the game, right? So you're you're top in a class. But for for me,
00:13:37
Speaker
I didn't really see learning or studying as yeah like, let's do all the past exams and try to understand all the questions. I really just took it as like, um I hope I understand the concept and I can apply it.
00:13:52
Speaker
yeah but but But going from that approach, I think also helps with these exams, right? Did you have to do the ah middle school entrance examination? No. So I was, i when I, when I transferred to that other school, yeah I was in sixth grade. So given that I was already there, um, I didn't need to take another exam going into a high school.
00:14:14
Speaker
So it was just one entry exam to that school. So now maybe I was lucky there. Maybe i was lucky. Yeah. Cause I know you kind of, both of us were lucked out that we didn't have to do gaokao. Oh, that, that thing is crazy. Right. One examination that determines like the rest of your life.
00:14:35
Speaker
Right. And it's, it's so scary to, to think like, um, that one result would determine everything. And as the 17 or 18 year old, that's so much pressure.
00:14:50
Speaker
um And in in China, I mean, it's it's still ah concern, right? Yeah. yeah um So, well, now now we understand how you came to the decision to study in the U.S. and also how you got there.
00:15:08
Speaker
um What was the first experience like stepping on the Cornell campus? Yeah. So having having grown grown up in Taipei and Shanghai, right? Yeah. I want i really wanted to be in some like countryside or more connected with nature, right? You know people people shit about Cornell being in the middle of nowhere. where It is um cold.
00:15:35
Speaker
i I loved it. um The first time I got there, oh actually, you know let me take a step back. yeah To get to Cornell, right? it's like ah um I landed in New York City first.
00:15:47
Speaker
Yeah. Totally different from what I thought because and the movies, you know, it's Hollywood ah about, you know, how how how um New York City is portrayed. Yeah.
00:16:00
Speaker
But actually seeing the infrastructure, yeah i must say, like, you know, Asia infrastructure, there's there's a benefit of being developed later on. Yeah. That.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah. it's it's much better um right now yeah compared to what's what's there in New York, right? Yeah. um So New York was a surprise. It's not bad, too. i think it's a place where and the more the longer you stay in New York City, the more you fall in love with it.
00:16:28
Speaker
Yeah. um But yeah, that that was great. So you landed in the city. How do you get to oh yeah we Great Hound? Oh, so my parents were with me. They were they wanted to see the campus too, right? Because for them, it was something new as well. um they um My mom never went to the U.S. as well.
00:16:49
Speaker
So it was a good journey for her. Was your dad finally proud of you? My dad, you know what? I think he's not like the... He's he's like the average Asian parent in the sense that he won't say like...
00:17:04
Speaker
Stuff like, you know, I love you, son, or I'm so proud of you. But he's also not the the type to be super harsh on me. Aside from that, you know, that comment about my Chinese being being super bad. but um Yeah, no, we just drove ah we drove up together to to Cornell.
00:17:22
Speaker
um So just enjoy like the views along the way. um You know, checked out the city, town, Ithaca.
00:17:33
Speaker
Went to those gorges. um then when winter came around, wow, loved it. Oh, you loved it. I loved I, you know, went out in shorts, really wanted to just feel the cold.
00:17:46
Speaker
did my foot, you know, just stepped into the snow to feel. It's like these are the random stuff I was doing as a freshman. So it seems like you you didn't have much of an adjustment period.
00:17:59
Speaker
Adjustment culture shock-wise or? and on ah Culture, academic, social? Not too much, I guess. I think the only the only thing I'd say is the first semester freshman year,
00:18:14
Speaker
I was a bit, I think admittedly I slacked off a bit because my mentality was, I worked so hard in high school. I'm here already. yeah um I'm not gunning for 100 or 120 every time. yeah Maybe an 80 to 90 is okay.
00:18:32
Speaker
And then after that first semester, you know that that competitiveness comes back. I'm like, oh no, this is not okay. yeah yeah now I think that would um that would be like the only... um like challenge in the beginning. yeah so Getting adjusted to still um ask more out of myself, not settle.
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah. I think for me, it was the same. i had a, looking back, my first semester's grades were the worst. and And the the bad thing about is it gets averaged down every semester after.
00:19:09
Speaker
So after the first semester, I look at my GPA. I'm like, if I want to get like a 3.8 or by the time junior year, this is how much I need to every semester after. So I made an Excel sheet. that I did the same thing. i did the same thing. So friends that are at close, um, and school, they, they know about this. I have that Excel. It's like, I'm at a three point whatever right now. yeah I'm taking, let's say four classes the next semester. Suppose I get an A or a plus. What does that mean?
00:19:41
Speaker
yeah It's forecasting and forecasting. It's forecasting. It's putting our assumptions and sensitize them. actually maybe that Maybe that's why we're in the jobs that we have right now. Yeah, but um just on your point of the adjustment period, for me, it was, think, more rougher the first semester as a transfer.
00:20:00
Speaker
That was sophomore year for me, so... um I didn't go through the same like freshman orientation. um i was living off campus um and the school I went to before was a liberal
Adjusting to Cornell's Academic Environment
00:20:14
Speaker
arts school. So um ah admittedly a little bit different in terms of um ah class formats. Like I didn't know that TA sessions were counted in grades that you have to show up.
00:20:26
Speaker
So, cause we didn't have TAs, we didn't have a graduate school program. So the first semester, I really struggled. And when the winter hits, it was just depressing. And then you're like why am I here? Why did I choose to come here? yeah um But then, um yeah, after that, I realized, okay, I need to get my GPA up.
00:20:46
Speaker
And then that became the kind of the um starting point for me to decide what classes I take. I took more Johnson School classes because they were...
00:20:57
Speaker
um supposedly the easier grades accretive yeah yeah sure that's the nicer way of putting it greater um and avoided some other hard classes like the government and um you know looking back at their pros and cons of classes you want to take you didn't take but also the gpa really mattered if you ah whether it's recruiting or yeah you know going to grad schools And Cornell has such a strong, like recruiting atmosphere when it comes to, I guess, the the business oriented, yeah and you know, full time or internship positions. Right. Yeah. I'm glad you brought it up. Like it's so intense.
00:21:39
Speaker
let's Let's talk more about it. Because my... So the final semester, I i took an English class and then I had to write ah critical essay. And I chose the topic on on what do you mentioned. Recruitment. Exactly. On the um but campus, pre-professional campus culture, including the clubs, orgs, and the recruiting.
00:22:02
Speaker
So I think right now, that all the Wall Street consulting firms are... perhaps taking a step back yeah because they realize they have AI and also, you know, why are we hiring these high school kids who don't know what they want out of life?
00:22:17
Speaker
yeah But I think when we were there, that was really the peak. Yeah, I think we caught like the sort of like the end of it because we were in a lucky year.
00:22:29
Speaker
um these These firms, they're growing um right before COVID. not related to, you know, um careers, but we had our graduation ceremony in person.
00:22:43
Speaker
um Like one year after this is totally different, right? Yeah. um But you yeah, going back to your question about like um the on-campus recruiting culture.
00:22:57
Speaker
i I really didn't realize that was such a thing until, I guess, sophomore year. But at that time, you know, if I have to reflect back, you know, la by then I was in a panic mode, essentially, because i realized that people were doing stuff in...
00:23:18
Speaker
first week or first month, whatever, first semester, right? they were They were looking at the the school clubs, yeah um what they could do to beef up their resume to get their first freshman year internship. Can we believe that?
00:23:33
Speaker
right too yeah It was... it was um like People were really planning ahead, um and that's good on their part, um but...
00:23:44
Speaker
What was your experience like when you panic, what clubs you turn to So there are a lot of um the finance clubs on campus, right? Or just... um Too many.
00:23:55
Speaker
Too many, too many. And I think it's also because there are a lot of students, right? And then there're then then there are your interviews to get into those those clubs as well. You have to apply.
00:24:10
Speaker
yeah you You have to interview one round or two rounds to see if you're the right fit or if they feel like you could bring value to that club. yeah um So for 18, 19-year-olds, I think that's kind of crazy.
00:24:25
Speaker
ah But it is good practice. yeah For some people, it's also meeting others of similar career interests. So yeah networking-wise, there're there is value to that.
00:24:36
Speaker
yeah I do think you know we we met some closer friends from those clubs as well. Aside from a finance club, um just joining those um social cultural clubs as well, um being part of the Asian community, Chinese community, um like Global China Connection was one that i was part of, um Club of Taiwan, the China clubs as well. Yeah.
00:25:03
Speaker
so So I think looking back, there was a clear delineation between the pre-professional clubs that were clearly, you know, pushing into the envelope of being cutthrilled, being selective versus other culture clubs that were laid back. They're more for the social aspect.
00:25:23
Speaker
Uh-huh. So I think I was also shell shocked when I, uh, transferred to Cornell. was like, I never knew what McKinsey does. I never heard of it before. And I was like, what is Morgan Stanley? Yeah.
00:25:37
Speaker
And it's like, you don't know these, no, you don't know the names. What are you doing here? And then the the kids that are like sitting next to me and they in the econ classes, they've, they've a they've ah what he could do you wouldn't call it internship, but they've shadowed on Wall Street as a high school kid before. So I'm like, wow.
00:25:57
Speaker
I'm really behind. but But it was truly, truly good practice. I'm very thankful for the experience, both the rushing for the pre-professional clubs, but also the recruiting aspect ah kind of got me ah started on, you know, being able to Because it does prepare you.
00:26:19
Speaker
does yeah prepare you yeah quite well. Yeah, I think it directly benefits my doing this podcast even because it allows me to you learn how to talk to people.
00:26:30
Speaker
Of course. um Being curious, ask questions. like I don't even know like what you know risk is from Nomura. And then i had a coffee chat with this guy.
00:26:41
Speaker
And I had to come up with questions that, you know, and actually pick his brain. And that was a really good practice. or Even other brothers from the ah professional clubs, right? You have to have to learn how to be curious. curious yeah yeah Yeah, I agree. i think that that is definitely the upside of these societies where business frats, clubs, whatnot.
00:27:06
Speaker
Yeah. um Where i where i found a bit um annoyed at the time was really how part of it, there's a there' is a ah there's a bit of elitism, yeah which I thought was quite unnecessary.
00:27:24
Speaker
um Because at the end of the day, you're all students. um And maybe we think too much about it at the time, but looking back, you know, if you're in club A versus club B, it doesn't, you know, say how successful or whatever you're going to be five years out. It's no predictor. yeah yeah Actually, yeah I read a study about um how um a predictor of one's success is not actually even the school they are in, right?
00:27:54
Speaker
Like, obviously, there are so many people who may not be from a so-called good university, um but they're amazing at their job and they make it to very senior positions. But in the research where just the the short reading that I saw was um one indicator is actually what you apply to.
00:28:15
Speaker
so if you have that ambition to go further or higher than what you actually even believe um your current status is,
00:28:25
Speaker
Interesting. But that's a tangent. Yeah. Yeah. so So back to this ah pre pre-professional recruiting culture, for those who don't know or never experienced it, can you describe what it's like?
Pre-professional Culture at Cornell
00:28:41
Speaker
um Yeah. Perhaps both on the clubs and also the firms that come to campus. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is like a dark age. No, and dark moments.
00:28:54
Speaker
and It's like, how should I start? When people think of some careers, junior year internship, I guess, is the most critical one um because that's the summer internship where um potentially you may receive a return offer to go to that position for the full time after i you graduate, right?
00:29:19
Speaker
But leading up to that, um you You sort of have to think about how you how your CV is um and if those firms will hire you for that junior year.
00:29:31
Speaker
And that's why there are these um shadowing experiences or other experiences. um freshman or sophomore a year summer programs um to get exposure.
00:29:43
Speaker
um I think that's what it it really is for for freshman and sophomore students. um And so the the clubs that are set up on campus, I think, are designed to help with that.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um And so essentially for me, as an example, then, let's say getting into Hedge Fund, it was the the channel for me to know what are the the companies coming to campus, um sort of like the senior and junior year students' perspectives, yeah um their experiences in their internships.
00:30:24
Speaker
um So it's just like this um coffee chat, having having to hear their experiences, right? um What the interview is like, what are the questions being asked, yeah um comp, like yeah stuff that you wouldn't ask like the actual employee, you right? yeah um That's that that type of stuff.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah. Did you feel like it took away from your college experience, from your academic experience, from your social experience?
Balancing Academics and Job Prep
00:30:53
Speaker
There are definitely moments of um sacrifice or trade-off that, yeah you know, if, let's say um interview period clashes with some other class or exam, right?
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah. um I don't recall that happening too much, but... or Yeah, let's take another example, actually preparing for those interviews. Yeah. That takes the most time, right? um Yeah.
00:31:24
Speaker
One example might be investment banking where, you know, people have financial modeling practices or they read like the... The classic, was it the 300 questions or something like that, right?
00:31:36
Speaker
yeah um And that takes time to internalize all those um information, yeah reading up on, say, markets or or economy, news in general.
00:31:51
Speaker
Um, so it, it does like, it's a tough balance sometimes with coursework. Yeah. Um, but it's manageable and the benefit of being in a closed off school is, um, the community is close to each other. Right.
00:32:08
Speaker
So yeah I don't think I had to sacrifice that much from a social aspect. Um, I was still able to connect with, um, people easily.
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah. But I think just to, um, perhaps drill deeper into what the experience is actually like, cause a lot of people, most people walked on earth. Most people went to college in the U S never had that experience to them because only there are only a few, what's so-called target schools that these firms go to every year in their recruitment cycle on campus recruitment cycle.
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah. So. So the experiences we had were actually very rare in that sense. Um, so just to again, give the listener what an idea of what that dislike. So sometimes you would wake up, go to your classes, but the time you wake up, you you dress a already in, um, suit and tie. Yup.
00:33:08
Speaker
Cause you have to rush to the recruitment event after your last class in the afternoon. Um, you don't even have time for dinner. Then you go to that, that recruitment event, for example, Morgan Stanley.
00:33:22
Speaker
um and then finished at 9 8 8 30 you rush to another one no moora on campus there are a lot um one is trading morgan's only one's for trading no more is for investment banking then you don't even know what the heck are these things and you just go there and then And there are a hundred or 200 other students. Hundreds of kids just like you. Yes.
00:33:46
Speaker
yeah Are eager gunning for the same ah few spots yeah every year from from the from the the team that come to recruit. and maybe there's 10 people in that session like 10 people from the company yeah so the ratio is obviously super odd so similar to to like if you were to go to a club there are only a few are ah females pretty girls standing around and then all the other are a bunch of you know single horny dudes just stand around yeah and everyone's trying to get and ask a question trying to get their contacts at the end it's like oh ah can I have your name card And they're not really listening to you. It's ah cringy. it's It's so cringy. um
00:34:32
Speaker
And also follow up emails, follow up emails asking for coffee chats, information interviews. like Oh, next time I'm in New York City, can we have a coffee chat? And so there's a whole process you're trained to follow. Yeah.
00:34:46
Speaker
So I think that's almost like the baseline or the the standard, right? Yeah. That you're saying that people need to follow. Yeah. And just, by the way, these events, you have to register. You have to register. And you might not even get selected to go there.
00:35:00
Speaker
That is the crazy part. You have to go on their website, fill in your information, saying, I'm coming to attend this Morgan Stanley Young Campus Recruiting yeah event. then you get an email saying, see you there. And then when you read when you arrive, you'll register your name.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah. So it's... Yeah. um It's an interesting experience. I think what worked well for me is actually Not those information sessions are helpful just to get an initial understanding of the company. If you didn't have, say, the coffee chats already with, you know, upperclassmen who already told you what a sales and trading is or investment banking or a consulting.
00:35:44
Speaker
um Right. um But. Like reaching out to alumni, like recently graduated ones, I think that is much more helpful because they remember you as well.
00:35:57
Speaker
um it's not You're not like one of a hundred people trying to like ask them one question in the hopes of thinking that that one question will be a strong and enough, it will be impressive enough that they will remember you. Yeah. um it's better to have these um these conversations beforehand, before they come to campus, or maybe ah few months after is fine as well, but keeping that connection, right? I think when when I graduated,
00:36:29
Speaker
people who wanted to join an MBB um found me on LinkedIn or um through like the clubs, um the student clubs, then they will email me and or LinkedIn message, ask if I have a time and There's a natural inclination for all of us to want to help someone who is, or, you know, was in a similar situation as us.
00:36:57
Speaker
Um, and I, that, I think that's just a better way of connecting to like person to person. Yeah. Yeah. The, the recruiting events were just a show. I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
00:37:10
Speaker
Yeah, probably so. um it's it's It's broader branding yeah um and to try and catch any talents that were initially not aware of the company but potentially um is a good fit, right? yeah I think that's that's the that's the benefit for um for those companies. I think, let's say, um consulting in particular leave a decent quota for full-time applications.
00:37:39
Speaker
And so it's good for them to um have that on-campus awareness ah so that when people do reach senior year and they they have a better sense of what they might want to do, then they would apply. um And then of course there are people who want to keep their career optionality more flexible.
00:38:02
Speaker
They also apply to consulting, right? Yeah, that's sort of my me actually. um You know, going into senior year, um wanted to have some like career flexibility, um, still learn about different industries and that's sort of like the value add that consulting brought to the table.
Recruitment Process: Business vs Engineering
00:38:23
Speaker
So it just reminded me of ah another experience I had. So, so the pre professional recruitments were, um, designed for the business students. In parallel, if you're in engineering, if you're in tech, there will be these hackathons, right? Startup competitions. Yeah.
00:38:43
Speaker
So I guess it's not, um it's not like we're unfairly treated during college in terms of our time allocation. Yeah. So I actually hacked myself into one of the hackathons. Okay.
00:38:56
Speaker
Those are my scenes like 24 hour event, right? yes um event right Yeah. Yeah. In a way, that's more intense, I think. I, um, so my, my, in my senior year, I started to take on more coding classes, realizing like, fuck, that's, I'll cut that part out.
00:39:14
Speaker
That's probably where the future is. And I kind of wasted my time learning about philosophy in college. So, um and through the class, I learned there's a hackathon and I had some friends who were going to the event. So I just showed up without registering at a ah networking. So the hackathon begins the following morning, but the night before were the social gathering where um for those who have a team, they show up with their team.
00:39:42
Speaker
For those who didn't, they go there to find a team. So I just turned up without registering and then mingled and then joined a team and then they were nicely enough to accept me and then i turned up turned up the next day for the hackathon with my ah bare minimum coding knowledge. That takes guts too.
00:40:02
Speaker
But it was really good learning experience. My professor was one of the judges. And, um, but it just speaks volume to like how much was going on on campus that are outside of here. There's so much, so much going on. So, so many opportunities you can learn and grab.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah. Um, Yeah, but everyone's hustling. everyone's There's no shame to trying hard, I think, at that There is no shame. um And if anything, it's like you seeing other people in other disciplines being that hardworking is a strong, like, push and support as well for me, right?
00:40:43
Speaker
Like, I have friends who are doing interior design. um yeah Totally different, but... Just seeing, you know, they were they were going through similar experiences too, but, you know, trying to get onto projects or um being a research assistant for some professors if they they are in the research field.
00:41:03
Speaker
um You know, we didn't talk about pre-med or architecture, yeah which is big in Cornell as well. yeah And Cornell, you know, there's there's that any any person, any study thing, right? So, yeah, just a lot of lot of different paths that one could take.
00:41:20
Speaker
um Lots of opportunities. Yeah. And um we took the safe path. I think so. I think so. yeah um It is... it is and They do make it easy in the sense that all you have to do is really upload your CV and a cover letter maybe.
00:41:41
Speaker
um like some Some don't even care for a cover letter and just click apply. right there are There are jobs that... are probably in, they're less structured. yeah um And that's the way in and MBA as well. There's sort of like your structural recruiting. These are the firms that you know will come to campus.
00:42:00
Speaker
um they You know they'll talk to you. yeah um And others that are just, they're interested. They'll definitely, um want to talk to you, but you so you just have to go find them yourself.
00:42:11
Speaker
um And maybe they have one or two positions. Yeah. But that that really just requires a lot more networking effort. Yeah. This like after the recruitment events, if you made an impression, whether it's on the day or in your follow-up emails, they will come back to campus with a few interview slots yeah at the career office.
00:42:34
Speaker
remember and then i um sign up and then got into some of these and then you turn up it's like one-on-one chat they got to know you more understand your motivation ask you a few questions finance related and so it's a whole package right it's not just you show up and then haha chit-chatting but then that was a uh the first step These firms have a and very short list. yeah Yeah. They have a strong like talent strategy plan.
00:43:02
Speaker
yeah Strong HR team. For some instances, they they would email students ahead of time like, hi, McCrid. I know that you're entering your junior year or you're entering your senior year. Have you ever considered XYZ?
00:43:17
Speaker
Which is, you know, them. um And it makes you feel good about yourself, right? It's like, oh, this company knows about me. Yeah. How? um And then you want to, you know, it feeds into that,
00:43:30
Speaker
um that that meant the I don't know if it's ego or anything, but um you feel more inclined to learn about that company too, given that they have a focus on you.
00:43:42
Speaker
Yeah. But do you um do you feel like you were overqualified when you started your job? Oh, no, I felt I was underqualified. Okay. um So i I don't think i took an easy path to because for each like summer experience, for me, it was it was also like trial and error, right? Understanding what I might like um if something is like hype or or not.
00:44:12
Speaker
Yeah. um So for example, um in hotel school, a lot of people do real estate. Yeah. So my sophomore year, i was with a real estate brokerage company um looking at hotel sales and consultancy.
00:44:31
Speaker
um And so with that experience, I was able to say cross out and say, OK, real estate to me is not like the the area I want to um have as ah as a career.
00:44:42
Speaker
Junior year, I was in private banking. Yeah. um good Good experience as well. um But then I knew, you know, maybe it's too administrative early on. Wanted some more analytical experience.
00:44:58
Speaker
um And, you know, this, frank frankly speaking, um by then it's almost like, oh, it's only senior year now. Like, I don't have any opportunities to try.
00:45:11
Speaker
yeah um and that's why I say, like, going into and bba I felt like I was underqualified because I didn't have like the internship experience with that company. Yeah. um Yeah. I didn't have like consulting experience. Yeah. If you like private banking is completely different. Right. Yeah.
00:45:29
Speaker
And then you have students from other top schools. So you naturally think, oh, am I, you know, am I good enough? Yeah. The reason I said over-qualifying is because I think um some of these top smart students who are just geniuses in mathematics, in sciences, chemistry, biology, and then they go into finance, which typically the first year they ask you to just do PowerPoints. Mm-hmm.
00:46:00
Speaker
And doing basic execution related tasks, right? Very little analytical component to the drop scope. So, um, I mean, it's not, it's not new for me to say that there has been a concern of this.
00:46:16
Speaker
talent drain going into wall street versus um silicon valley or starting
Journey to MBB Consulting Firm
00:46:22
Speaker
their own company it's like behind i think uh what's his name the the guy the asian guy who ran for president uh andrew yang he was like every college kid should start their own company or something yeah but back to you um how did you land your uh full-time job at mbb and by the way mbb is what Oh, yes. Yes. We should say, yeah
00:46:47
Speaker
McKinsey Bain, um, Boston Consulting Group, um, which typically for strategy or management consulting is what people would aspire to join. would say.
00:47:01
Speaker
They're in a league of their own. League of their own. Um, they have their strong like expertise in, in certain areas. Um, and yeah, like for me,
00:47:14
Speaker
The application wasn't that different from the others, like what we said, right? So they actually, they actually for for the one I joined, they didn't come to campus, but they did have a posting.
00:47:28
Speaker
And so that was um just an application, um easy enough. My mentality at the time is, again, let me try for MBB.
00:47:39
Speaker
um And if that doesn't work out, I know that there's still... um say, like a similar path in private banking that I could consider, um And it's it's really what we we said.
00:47:53
Speaker
um Talking to people before the application or even when I was waiting for a response because you don't know if you – I didn't know if I would get the interview, right? But still speaking with recently graduated alumni on their experiences with each of those firms.
00:48:11
Speaker
um Understand if it might be what I was looking for. um if any of them and I like click well then are they able to refer me like that's sort of the the standard process um it's the thing that you have to do um and then the the famous case interview preparations oh yeah yeah that was that was something new uh to me uh which I started late too as well a lot of you know some people start freshman year right yeah you know try to rush for uh
00:48:47
Speaker
ah the consulting club and then I failed in the interview round even until today I remember what he asked me so I i sat down and the in the one of the classrooms and this guy asked me can you estimate how many diapers Walmart sells in a year in the United States stuff like that really random like classic like how many ping pong fits in a Boeing right um and If you never read the yeah Bibles, the consulting into case study and ah Bibles, then you don't understand yeah the process.
00:49:20
Speaker
young How do you um analyze these problems? So ah I think... You know, those Bibles, super thick. They're like a textbook.
00:49:32
Speaker
Yeah. I really didn't want to read that. Yeah. So what I did was actually go on YouTube. Yeah. It's probably so much more accessible now with like, let's say podcasts or YouTube, and other or other content creators sharing. Right. Yeah. But this guy also like very well known, Victor Chang, he's sort of like the guy that is teaching you how to, um,
00:49:57
Speaker
ah break into consulting. And, you know, there were some videos about, you know, how he how he speaks and what what to focus on. So it was I watched those videos and just sort of like thought of how to present myself accordingly.
00:50:17
Speaker
um I didn't want to, okay, this is not probably not the best advice for everyone because everyone preps differently. you know Some people like to do one-on-one mock interviews with others to have a sense of what questions might come their way, like market sizing, the one that you where you were sharing, right? yeah I found it awkward to do those mock interviews, but what what I would do instead is you know practice in a mirror to know how um, how I look when I'm speaking. You focus on the delivery. Exactly. i focused on that first. Um, but, um like the cases themselves, I was reading the MBA consulting case books at the time because, you know, these, these are readily available resources on different sorts of consulting, uh, prompts.
00:51:08
Speaker
Like it could be a market sizing. It could be market entry. Um, cost, uh, revenue and cost that it's like the, these are sort of like the, the big three, the, yeah, the most common stuff they will ask you. And so it's almost like you have to understand, um the, the framework to talk about these questions, yeah um, in a manner that, um,
00:51:34
Speaker
that that shows that you understand communication, right? Because a big part of assessment is also, are we comfortable putting someone who just graduated in front of a senior client team um that can properly entered you know share the the scope of work that is being done by the consulting team?
00:51:55
Speaker
yeah Not in all cases, but you want someone who is ready to do that, right? So would you say that the ah experience, the interview process we just we described, the case interview, were a
Strengths of MBB Firms
00:52:10
Speaker
nutshell of what you worked on later on?
00:52:12
Speaker
Was it a representative? Yeah. Like if you think of, say, like a standard, say, four-month case or project, the interview itself is like the microcosm of that, right? um Like let's say the...
00:52:30
Speaker
profit question, you're essentially looking at how to grow your top line or lift the like margins, right? So costs.
00:52:42
Speaker
um But the actual projects themselves are are more defined. So what I mean by that is you already know, let's say, it's a cost concern that the the company wants to address. So um it's about performance improvement and and cost reduction.
00:52:58
Speaker
And then you you delve deeper into what are the cost buckets of the company? um Is there any benchmarks that you know from past um work or industry that you can tell if if the client team is, you know, over-indexed on on one department or not?
00:53:19
Speaker
and Sort of like the benchmark too to to identify if you can become more efficient efficient or lean in a department. Hmm. Yeah. So I, you don't have to say exactly which one, but comparing the three MBBs, you mentioned that, um, each have their own strength and weaknesses. So what were the differences? What kind of, what sectors they focus on or what, how different were their styles and when it comes to, problem solving?
00:53:49
Speaker
um Yeah, so I would start by saying i think the the work itself is actually not too different, right? um The manufacturing process um and framework to to approach Lease, I think it's and it's well-developed across all three, um and that's why...
00:54:10
Speaker
you know, if you succeed in one, I doubt that it'll be that different in the other two, aside from like cultural, ah like office culture or the company culture perspective.
00:54:22
Speaker
um And then I think for for people looking at these companies, it's it's about, um What sectors that they might be interested in. right We join as generalists, but with with um with each company, they might have a strength in certain sectors. So let's say Bain doesn't do um government work.
00:54:48
Speaker
Um, as much as say McKinsey would, right. And that's, that's from a risk perspective, um, that Bain decides not to, not to go into that field. Um, you, you might see like McKinsey in the news because of those government related, um work.
00:55:06
Speaker
Um, and they're not, uh, consulting for Chinese government, right. Recently. Yeah. Um, stuff like that. yeah um or, or like border control was another one that w that was an, an issue.
00:55:22
Speaker
um what is the border control issue? Oh, sorry, like we're working on a project that is about the U.S. border control. Okay. Yeah. But I don't think that was like, sorry, issue it might be the wrong word, um but it was in the headlines because of the, the you know, the debate in the U.S. about immigration. I see.
00:55:46
Speaker
Whether or not it's rightful, right? Yeah. yeah if If they have the right budget yeah um at the borders. Yeah. Yeah. So that that was why I think it made the headline in the first place.
00:55:58
Speaker
yeah um Other areas could be, I mean, sectors, strength could be like private equity, um due diligence type case works. um Yeah, I think those probably are the ones that stand out. What about BCG?
00:56:15
Speaker
BCG, I'm sort of slipping my mind right now. um But I think they have a strong um data analytics team is what I know. um But yeah, I can't speak too much on on them.
00:56:28
Speaker
I think from like offices wise, it's more straightforward, right? Like New York, you probably have more diversified um clients and project types to to work on.
00:56:42
Speaker
And that's why it's such an appealing um office for for everyone to go to, not just because a great city, but yeah like work-wise. Then you might think San Francisco is healthcare care um and tech as the two large industries.
00:56:57
Speaker
Hong Kong is financial services or conglomerates. Yeah. yeah Did you um specialize over time? I didn't i didn't specialize.
00:57:09
Speaker
So for I think for most consultants, probably when they are going to a manager roles, they need to then align to to a like ah a sector.
00:57:24
Speaker
But I actually, i didn't officially align, but... um I was most involved with financial services given the Hong Kong, um ah but being based in Hong Kong.
00:57:36
Speaker
yeah So insurance firms we were a big portion of the work that I did. um and then conglomerates being you know the more mature companies, then they're they're looking at either transformation or you know ah performance improvement. Performance improvement being...
00:57:58
Speaker
um essentially a bottom line uplift.
00:58:04
Speaker
Well, this may be a stupid question, but just at a more philosophical level, why um why do companies need external consultants who might not know their own businesses as well themselves?
Consulting with AI's Rise
00:58:21
Speaker
yeah What justifies this industry's ah existence and success? it's It is the question right now, right? Because it's like, oh, will will this industry continue...
00:58:33
Speaker
um well into the future if AI can do the job. But I guess to answer your question, there are a few um reasons why.
00:58:44
Speaker
um The obvious one is probably outsourcing. um the The company themself might not have the resource and the time to look at a specific project, um but consulting firms have a full team ah dedicated to that purpose um to to go into the weeds of stuff um for analysis. I think that i might be one.
00:59:11
Speaker
um So as an example, say like... um PE firms when they are bringing a deal to their investment committee, um they also want to have commercial ah inputs from the consulting team on the market or on on feedback ah from the customer perspectives, right?
00:59:33
Speaker
And so they lay often you know hire a consulting firm to do that and provide that input into their models ah before leaving they finalize.
00:59:46
Speaker
And then you have, say, situations where the the company themselves, they don't know what they don't know, and they need information about the market.
00:59:58
Speaker
This is, I guess, the more exciting part of exciting work for a lot of people because um like we think we're trying to identify the the problems for them and the solutions. um giving them market information that they had no idea about. um And that that, I think, is the value, right? um Providing benchmarks on other companies um from an outside-end perspective,
01:00:25
Speaker
um you can think of... And you you have the data from your own work history, right? Yeah. It would either be from like um anonymized ah databases, right? Or um like through expert calls.
01:00:44
Speaker
they're Talking to folks who were in, you know, they've left like ah say a, say company X, but and um they can speak to the the market, the industry or that company or other competitors.
01:00:58
Speaker
So we do a lot of expert calls to to ensure that an information is correct. um and provide that as well. yeah Or secondary market reports as well.
01:01:10
Speaker
Those all feed in, and then you know in some cases, we can build our own model to to share perspectives on, say, growth um and and other facets of the business.
01:01:23
Speaker
Sometimes it might be taking the the company's internal data to analyze as well because there there are a lot of sensitive data that not the... um even Even the, say, the C-suite, they don't want their own team members to to touch.
01:01:38
Speaker
And so they let the consulting firms do that. yeah How do consulting firms price these projects to clients? How do they charge them? By the hour?
01:01:50
Speaker
so Um, and we talked about like SKUs, right? Like stock keeping unit or like the product itself is essentially the size of the team.
01:02:01
Speaker
So, um, what we might say, like M plus one is like one manager plus one, you know, analyst. Right. So a typical team might be M plus three and that, that three would be a mix of like analyst and an associate.
01:02:17
Speaker
um And that the price is based off of that. The analyst ah to associate to manager or to principal levels, they have their ah their rates.
01:02:28
Speaker
and yeah So it's it's based off of that. Exact figures, you're asking? How do they know how many hours this project is going to take? So and MBB actually doesn't bill by the hour to my knowledge.
01:02:44
Speaker
Um, it's more on a time, um, time span. Like you're hiring this, uh, these people for like that team comp component, uh, composure for, uh, say four months.
01:02:58
Speaker
So that four months, it will, it's not down to the hour, but it's like say four months or four weeks. Yeah. And by a weekly basis, what the rate is. but how do they know this project is going to take like four months to solve? So that typically is scoped out by the partners in discussion with the key client map.
01:03:20
Speaker
Okay. Based on what they want to solve. Yeah. there's sort of a, based on experience, the partner already knows, like, typically this would take this amount of time, right? Yeah. um So let's take, like, commercial due diligence. Usually it's two to four weeks. Two weeks would be a very short one.
01:03:40
Speaker
That might not be full, you know, full-scale, like, you know, customer interviews or, you know, Yeah, o would be ob be the scope will be narrower versus four weeks, it might be ah be more complete.
01:03:56
Speaker
So it depends on the needs of the client as well. um Yeah, I'd say like by depending on what the case capability is, there is already a sense of the time.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yeah. What did you like the most about working consulting? Oh, that is a tough question. What did you learn? What was your learning curve like
Consulting's Learning Curve
01:04:19
Speaker
at first? What what do you think instilled you for the rest of your career?
01:04:25
Speaker
The learning curve is steep because yeah if whenever we change a project, you have to become the expert in that in a short time frame, right?
01:04:37
Speaker
Yeah. um i Admittedly, I don't think I was the best first-year analyst because I was just like trying to breathe, keep my head above water.
01:04:48
Speaker
um i remember two advice that I received from my seniors at the time, like a supervisor at the time. One was like, he he told me that he felt it as well. Like he, it was sort of like for him, that was the the advice that he he keeps in mind, which is to always be paranoid about other people catching your mistakes.
01:05:12
Speaker
yeah um And I was like, damn. That sounds kind of intense, but that's sort of the mentality. there's There's a notion of keeping your work zero defect.
01:05:24
Speaker
Like, is that possible? But that's sort of like the expectation. Yeah, so... yeah so Same goes in banking. yeah Exactly. And I think that's the professional service standard, right? if If clients are paying that much money, then you shouldn't have silly mistakes. um Like, we you know, people might joke about ah fonts being different or the notes not being, you know, precise. But those are the things that show that you know the work well, right? Because you don't want to lose credibility over something stupid.
01:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were as the bottom of the food chain, we were in charge of these small things to make sure they're perfect. Right. Yeah. But yeah, the learning wise, I think that's that's instilled in me. Right. Even now, I think, you know, keeping that high standard,
01:06:21
Speaker
um And the other the other skill set, I guess, is um i guess the case cracking or... Business sense. Yeah, business business sense of how would you address a ah problem? How do you address the project?
01:06:38
Speaker
um If you're if you're a leading and you know one or two others, um how how do you make their you know work more defined so that they can provide you ah value add or leverage?
01:06:53
Speaker
Yeah, it could be like as tactical as that even. And I think, you know, ah corporates who look for consultants when like to hire, they also value these skill sets, especially product management and the corporate perspective.
01:07:12
Speaker
Do you have any memorable projects you can speak to or some of the most defining milestones your time there? Yeah, the the the one that usually sticks out to me is like a customer experience case for insurance, which is unusual because, you know, we don't really think of insurance providing customer service or experience, right?
01:07:42
Speaker
And that that was the that was the the thing that they wanted to address as well. Like, do people think that we are providing for them? Would they recommend us over...
01:07:53
Speaker
another insurance firm right in Hong Kong that field is so competitive there are so many insurance firms and but people are the the population in Hong Kong are active buyers right so there's there's a need to have an like ah an edge in that sense so we were doing we we basically started off by doing a massive um survey and work to understand how people perceive all the firms and and in the market from that customer experience standpoint down to ah the journeys, the customer journey. So every touch point of learning the company, um learning about the company to being serviced to when you're buying the insurance,
01:08:41
Speaker
ah like policy to when you are making a claim to post claim, like, you know, relationship, retainment, stuff like that. So your team designed the survey?
01:08:52
Speaker
We designed a survey and then we also spoke to, you know, target client customer groups to to understand what was like the gaps. Then went back to the drawing board with like the team, the clients to co-create like how they would sort of reshuffle or recreate their their touch points.
01:09:15
Speaker
The ascent, the like wireless surveying down to the granularity of sub journeys is important is because we need to know sort of like what is the exact touch point that you are um making your client, like customers go away or what do they, you know, which it's good to know what they like, but yeah what's the stuff that are actually pushing them away from you.
01:09:39
Speaker
And that's the that's the thing that needs to be revamped. Did you interview people? Like how do you collect the data points or did you outsource it to a third party? No, so like we, for example, when we design a survey, yeah um there will be questions that are um already quantitative, like we could get quantitative inputs on.
01:09:59
Speaker
um And yeah in terms of like reaching the... Do you it out? Yeah. go on the streets? yeah No, we so we do work with like other third parties too yeah who are these like...
01:10:11
Speaker
like data, I guess, providers, they they find the right demographic of people based on your your needs. So we define, like, the demographic, how many people we need to reach ah for each, like, say, gender or age or profession, stuff like that. And then and then that is blasted out. We collect it.
01:10:33
Speaker
um And then that is then sort of... ah you know supported by individual interviews that we have and focus group interviews that we have with target client segments.
01:10:48
Speaker
ah Did the client use your findings at the end? So that yeah that that one was, ah I think, quite a rewarding one because it was tougher than expected.
01:11:00
Speaker
um the The client expectation was high. yeah um and But you know it was a good project because I believe a year later, they they made considerable progress um from from the customer experience standpoint, just by looking at the survey results again as well, like ah compared to other benchmarks.
01:11:26
Speaker
Yeah. But for me, like that was a, it was memorable because of the the client interaction that would responsibility that I was, um you know, put in charge of, like talking to um more senior people one-to-one.
01:11:44
Speaker
I did a meeting where I was talking to like 20 people at the same time um just to explain like what we were doing. so So that was like my first first experience talking to that many people just like staring at me, right?
01:11:57
Speaker
Oh, it was in person. um There was probably half of the attendees were online. Okay. And half in person. so And you have to give a presentation on what were you going to do to... At that point, it was a already what has already been done. So it was like an update on our our progress.
01:12:15
Speaker
um Standard, like, you know, this is this is what we were i going to do. This is the progress, ah what the output is, what it implies, stuff like that.
01:12:29
Speaker
what were some of the most stressful moments? Deadlines. Deadlines, a they're always the that thing that um gives the most stress.
01:12:40
Speaker
um I think when...
01:12:45
Speaker
when the deadline is approaching and then you suddenly get ah feedback from like a senior team member, let's say like in a case like a partner say like this is actually not good enough or we need to do more on something, then you know that you have to put in more hours with the team to
01:13:06
Speaker
to make the content ah more defensible or more fleshed out, essentially, right? Because we also want to... ah make a good recommendation to a client and not have them challenge us upfront.
01:13:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. <unk> I don't think there were specific instances that I can recall right now, but typically there, um, the other stressful moments are usually right in the beginning of the case when I'm just starting, what the heck is insurance? Yeah. stuff Like that. Like, you know, I know, but, uh, you know, what, what is the detail of this company?
01:13:47
Speaker
yeah And. You know, insurance is one example, but if you're, if you've been doing say insurance for two or three cases and then suddenly you're put on something related to softwares, you might be like, Oh, what?
01:14:03
Speaker
Um, uh, so there's that panic moment. Um, any new industry would be would be a challenge, I think. And then there's the element of changing team members, right? Because... Turnover is high.
01:14:18
Speaker
um Not even that yet, but it's just like... Within the firm, they stack it with different people. Exactly. if if I've not worked with a manager before, I might be worried about how that manager perceives me or how that manager, you know,
01:14:36
Speaker
runs the project uh how i should interact with him or her yeah um these sort of i think it's it's very interesting pressures to have because most other jobs uh probably would not you know change uh teammates or or bosses that often right was it like purposefully built in as part of the consulting culture their talent management too Yeah, you usually, I mean, it's I think it's also who's available for that practice. Yeah. um
01:15:09
Speaker
So the when a case is sold, obviously the partner is tagged to it. The manager who is affiliate affiliated to a relevant capability or sector is also tagged to it. And so it's it's them sort of selecting and the analyst or associate.
01:15:28
Speaker
um But in some cases, if you happen to be like the only person on on beach and available, then you don't have a choice but to to go on because of business needs, right?
01:15:41
Speaker
Have you worked with partners that are just hard to work with, very harsh, even nasty?
01:15:52
Speaker
I wouldn't say... Yeah, actually, you know what? I don't think I've worked with any... like toxic partners. no um I wouldn't say it's that bad.
01:16:02
Speaker
um know The struggle usually is how to manage upwards, which is, um you know, if you understand one person's style, maybe it's easier to talk to that person.
01:16:16
Speaker
um But there there could be people who are very hands off. So they actually don't even know how the project is going until the meeting. Yeah. um Because they have too many on their place. Maybe for that particular project is...
01:16:30
Speaker
it's a lower like ah allocation to them like capacity wise. Yeah. um So it's it's a challenge to to relay the information in a short time and they're just reacting as well, right? And and the the danger there is that when they're just reacting on the spot, then there might be new stuff that comes out.
01:16:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Do you travel a lot? or Oh, yeah. So in interestingly, i would I'm probably the least traveled consultant.
01:17:00
Speaker
Yeah. So in New York, the the clients would majority, uh, there are so many clients in New York already. Right. And I, I said I had a preference not to travel.
01:17:14
Speaker
Um, and then COVID, so we were working remote, but in Hong Kong it's similar to, right? There are a lot of local clients, so you don't necessarily have to travel. yeah Um, and.
01:17:27
Speaker
In cases where it's on like Southeast Asia, you could do it remotely as well. So I actually probably only traveled three times.
01:17:38
Speaker
Yeah. Out of three and a half years, only three travels. Yeah. It was pretty good. If it gets too much, it kind of disrupts your routine.
01:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, maybe that's another element for some people to consider, right? Like McKenzie, I think, is known for more travels. um Out of the three, Bain probably the least.
01:18:03
Speaker
um Yeah, like more regional travel. Yeah. because of the work scope or just the... No, it's just ah the way the business is set up, I think. and Like internally, ah that's sort of their business strategy. Yeah, yeah.
01:18:21
Speaker
Okay, so I think that pretty much wraps up my like curiosity for consulting. I'm sure like we can follow up with more interesting stuff that you can't share about because it's ah confidential...
01:18:36
Speaker
yeah sure um do you want to pivot to another area of topics you have in mind or i mean we're i'm just thinking about concluding i mean given we don't have an outline we don't have a script because the first time we're we're doing this no but i think this topic is i mean super relevant for students just you know just starting their careers, right, or or considering consulting even.
01:19:08
Speaker
um Yeah, i would I would say, you know, it's still an industry that has potential, right? Like people think of AI replacing jobs, but it's really, in my perspective,
01:19:25
Speaker
it's really about how one uses ai to their work in their work like to implement it within to to make things more effect efficient or effective so from a consulting perspective it actually helps in a sense that um analysts could work faster the ones that stay in a firm um and yeah i think it's such an exciting time They've done a few rounds of layoffs, right?
01:19:51
Speaker
Yeah. Recently. i think so. I think so. I think, um, yeah, that. There are a lot of reasons, I think a lot of reasons for why that happened. Like, um I mean, I believe it was like 2022 was probably a good consulting year. So there were a lot of overhire, if you will.
01:20:14
Speaker
And so when the next year there are less demand for consultants, then it's sort of like the the oversupply needs to be dealt with. yeah ah do firms typically cut the lower performing tiers every year?
01:20:32
Speaker
I think it's not that direct. It's almost like a natural attrition because people will burnout when with every case there is a review, right? And so when when one gets a lower review, then they're sort of in, um, like assessment period for another three months.
01:20:56
Speaker
And that's, that's when some people choose to stay and show that they, you know, they, they still belong in the next three months or next six months, or they, they decide, yeah, I can do something else as well.
01:21:09
Speaker
So that's, that's where the attrition comes from. um And when these moments like clash with promotion cycles, that's when people really leave, right? Because you might think, oh, I expected a promotion, but you know because of one bad case, um this derails stuff.
01:21:33
Speaker
Yeah. Were you ever close to that? too Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Assessment period? Yeah, no my first year was a struggle too, right? um That was why I always was saying, like, learning the ropes of stuff.
01:21:44
Speaker
um My first year was already that assessment, like, honestly speaking. um I had to prove that I still had, you know, what it takes, I guess, yeah in six months.
01:22:00
Speaker
So they gave me six months um to ah to have a rating of... um I forgot what it was exactly was, but yeah. And then it's a more frequent catch up as well. Like your manager and the partner knows as well. So you know, actually, you know what, going back to your previous question, that's probably the the high pressure moment. Stressful. Yeah. that The stressful moment because I was thinking, oh, this is just, you know, my first year um or actually, you know, first six months.
01:22:29
Speaker
yeah And yeah, that was already you know the the main challenge. So thinking back, the first six months being in, like I was in a private equity group and having no like ah experience was probably why like I faced that challenge.
01:22:48
Speaker
Yeah. yeah um Did that play a role in your transfer to Hong Kong? No. So that was always in plan because as an international student, yeah I only had one year ah OPT, which is for the international students to work in in the US.
01:23:06
Speaker
yeah So it was always in the plan. Actually, I applied to Hong Kong first and they they offered, said, you know, there is this opportunity for you to stay in the US for a year. do you want to do that?
01:23:20
Speaker
um And then went through some internal processes. So i was quite lucky. um The experience itself, obviously, a challenge, but looking back, what a blessing to have hardcore, like, supervisors, right?
First Year Challenges in Consulting
01:23:34
Speaker
Yeah. um Get rid of the hard stuff up front. tin Yeah, yeah, yeah. and If anything, you know, I think that helped me. um you know, be, be able to withstand more pressure.
01:23:47
Speaker
um yeah. Whether it's internally or from clients, um, just being able to deal with it better, have the confidence or conviction in myself to say like, you know, I can, um, show, uh, and deliver, know?
01:24:07
Speaker
Do you have certain moments you remember? Like if you were to contextualize it, I think about the, ah just illustrate like yeah what was happening at the time when you were struggling as a first year consultant.
01:24:23
Speaker
Long nights, weekend can work, and I don't know. Yeah, so I think from a first year perspective, we were or I was quite protected from weekend work actually. yeah so allow it that was quite good.
01:24:38
Speaker
um Long nights compared to Asia, New York was okay. New York a late night might be 11 to maybe but before one o'clock for sure.
01:24:53
Speaker
um In and Asia, like my worst hour was up to 4 a.m. m So I wouldn't say the hours were too challenging. So what time you start the next day? the The craziest one was like, which the one I was just talking about is our I ended at four because, you know, I had to deliver something.
01:25:16
Speaker
yeah My manager saw that the analyst working with me could not take it anymore. so he So he literally just told me, um You know, this person needs to needs to leave, but can you take it?
01:25:32
Speaker
You know, can you can you finish this off? And, you know... I'm the only one to do that. So 4 a.m. m and then the next day there was an 8 a.m. client meeting.
01:25:43
Speaker
Not me presenting, but still I had to be there, right? So that that was a rough moment. And also probably the moment when clicked to me that, you know, this might this is not sustainable forever. Yeah.
01:25:56
Speaker
yeah we We always say like one person is two bad cases. However you define bad, like two bad cases away from leaving consulting in general. you But going to going back to that first year, I think um it's it's not understanding like the um the cadence or like how fast I should be delivering stuff, um how detailed I should understand stuff.
01:26:23
Speaker
voicing myself out in meetings, i was I think I was a bit um too reserved as well, too cautious about like what I should say. But really, like that backfired, right?
01:26:37
Speaker
I think there's always value to communicate more um in team meetings, yeah to share what you researched or what you found um to contribute to to the discussion or ah whatever work it may be.
01:26:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um I'll probably draw a conclusion soon on on the podcast today, but if you were like looking back to everything we discussed today, your journey to attending college in the US, succeeding there, getting yourself a job, a foot in MBB, then now moving on to the next career chapter, were there certain...
Ikigai: Guiding Career Decisions
01:27:19
Speaker
principles or you know guiding philosophies you would share i don't want to say advice because it's just advice is too generic and everyone will say like oh enjoy your best life or exercise work hard philosophy so the the the one that i like the most is this kind like Japanese concept called Ikigai.
01:27:45
Speaker
I don't know if you've heard it before. i think so. Okay. But it's essentially like just thinking about what you love to do, what the world needs, what you can be paid for, and then um what you're good at doing.
01:27:59
Speaker
And i mean, think of those as like the four circles and the, the it's like Venn diagram almost, right? You want to find that center sweet spot. That fits all of them. But if you can't fit all of them, what are the the tradeoffs that you're willing to take?
01:28:15
Speaker
So I think from a you know student to a career choice perspective, that's the one that is always in my mind now. um I probably wouldn't change a thing about how I've got here um because the experiences are so valuable. I'm still a big promoter of um consulting firms. Generally speaking, I think the and work experience puts... It's a great training to ah prepare you for anything else, whether it's hands-on analytical skill sets or the more soft skills or...
01:28:50
Speaker
um you know, communications. a I think it's great. um But also beyond that, then it's finding a what you want to do. Right. I think that's the focus for so many people right now as well and being paid for to do to do it.
01:29:07
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. um On that note, I think we'll wrap up here. Nice. Thank so much for coming on the show and especially, you know, now is what?
01:29:19
Speaker
Eight, 12 hours. Like we said in the beginning, romantic last night. Yeah. Just talking about past experience. Yeah, and and I liked how free-flowing it is. you know it's It's just two friends catching up and talking about whatever on their mind. It's not like yeah other podcasts I did where I had to really research a subject, did an outline, and then... Oh, of course. Of course. so we will we like This is this fun, right? um you know Exchanging views...
01:29:48
Speaker
yeah And yeah for me, it was just like it's also an easy conversation, just being transparent. I don't think any of these words are things that i feel difficult about sharing.
01:30:02
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Well, on that note, thanks for coming on the show, Eric. Oh, no. Thanks for having me, McCrud.