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EP15 Dr. Maxim Dickieson: Chemistry Saves The World One Reaction At A Time
38 Plays6 months ago
Dr. Maxim Dickieson received his PhD. in chemical engineering under the supervision of Professor Yan Ning (NUS) earlier this year, and is now working alongside Professor Yan to commercialize biomass fractionation deep-tech. He has experience in green catalysis research for waste-to-value; more specifically, his thesis focused on CO2 hydrogenation to methanol (carbon capture and utilization), and his start-up journey currently focuses on sustainable and cost-effective biomass utilization, which will be the focus of this discussion.
In this episode, we break down the science of catalysis and use Max’s research as a gateway into the larger world of green chemistry and its real-world impact. We also dive into his journey from Las Vegas to the “Lab Vegas” of advanced materials — a bet not on luck, but on science — and explore what it really means to be a working scientist in today’s climate crisis. For anyone curious about how science turns climate risk into industrial opportunity, this is your crash course.
Timestamps
(00:00:00) Introduction
(00:05:42) Choosing a Career in Science
(00:09:04) Motivation and Scientist Ethos
(00:13:46) Understanding Green Chemistry
(00:19:13) Challenges in Adopting Green Technologies
(00:29:45) Promising Green Technologies and Innovations
(00:36:13) Biomass Refinery
(00:44:39) Sourcing Chitin from Shell Waste
(00:46:18) Technological Differentiators and Market Positioning
(00:55:27) Scaling Up Production
(00:58:43) Challenges and Strategies in Commercialization
(01:11:38) Future Vision
Disclaimer: This podcast is an independent personal project and is not affiliated with or endorsed by any employer or organization. All views expressed are solely those of the host and guests. The content is for information and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, legal, tax, or professional advice. The host, guests, and associated parties assume no liability for any actions taken based on this content.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Max received his PhD in chemical engineering under the supervision of Professor Yan Ying at NUS earlier this year, and is now working alongside Professor Yan to commercialize biomass fractionation deep tech.
00:00:16
Speaker
He has the experience in green catalysis research for waste to value. More specifically, his thesis focuses on c o two hydrogenation to methanol, carbon capture and utilization.
00:00:29
Speaker
And his startup journey currently focuses on sustainable and cost-effective biomass utilization, which will be the focus of this discussion. While I just read a bunch of stuff that I have no idea about, which is why I brought you here today, um before we talk more about your research, perhaps um let's start with a bit of your background. Tell us who you are, um your journey, both in science and also how you got to Singapore.
00:00:58
Speaker
Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I know we've been talking about this for a while. So I appreciate all the effort you put in on the research side of things and getting everything set up. So I first want to thank you. But um yeah, so I'm currently 27 turning 28 next month. um I was born in Encino, California, which is Southern California, ah near like Universal Studios area.
00:01:19
Speaker
But my family moved to Las Vegas when I was about two months old. So I consider myself born and raised in Las Vegas. ah So I grew up there until I was 18 and then went to Arizona State University for my undergraduate degree, ah which is only about a four and a half hour drive from Las Vegas. It's in the like you can kind of it's technically Tempe, but it's like the greater Phoenix area.
00:01:43
Speaker
um And one of probably the biggest things I did during my um undergraduate was I did study abroad the summer after my junior year, which was 2018. And and At the time, I was, I guess I should have prefaced, I studied chemical engineering um at ASU, which is also what I did my PhD in.
00:02:03
Speaker
But the summer after my junior year, which is around the time you want to kind of start looking for internships, I wasn't really sure whether or not I wanted to stay in industry or pursue, you know, the academic path potentially.
00:02:16
Speaker
So I got the opportunity to come to Singapore for two months ah during that summer. And I actually, that is how I met Prof. Yan. was I was working in his group as an exchange student. um And although I didn't have so much involvement with him on a day but ah day-to-day basis, I was mentoring, or excuse me, getting mentored by one of his PhD students.
00:02:37
Speaker
So throughout the two months, my responsibilities basically included assisting her with experiments, preparing material, um attending meetings, doing readings, things of that nature.
00:02:50
Speaker
And that's where I got my feet wet with academic research and kind of what that entails. So after that experience in 2018, I went back to complete my senior year at ASU and I did an honors undergraduate thesis. So it wasn't ah the exact same field of research that I did at NUS, but I did a project for about a year on protein engineering, which furthered my experience in academic research. And i actually wrote a thesis for my
00:03:21
Speaker
um undergraduate degree as well. So that gave me a lot of good experience um and understanding of what academic research is all about, what the purpose of it is, et cetera.
00:03:32
Speaker
And my initial plan was actually to continue my master's degree under the same supervision I had during my undergraduate degree. But almost, I guess, by fate, when I reached out to Professor Yan and ah Professor Rika or Nazarudin, who was my PhD mentor at the time, who is now a professor at a university in Malaysia. um I say it's fate because Prof Yan was actually visiting Rika in her new ah university in Malaysia where she got a job. And she was showing him something on the screen.
00:04:05
Speaker
And so my email popped across the screen while he was... viewing something and he was like, oh, ah you know, why don't I have a PhD opportunity open? Why don't you let him know about it and see if he's interested?
00:04:18
Speaker
So ah that's that's a crazy little story I always like to tell is to like how I ended up here, because um it's just a crazy coincidence that brought him to see that email.
00:04:29
Speaker
um So it was ah obviously a very tough decision. I did probably think about it for four to five months. I did a lot of research. um on what the academic supervisor um really focuses his research on and what facilities and kind of resources he has at his disposable excuse me his disposal as well. Since these are all things that are gonna really guide and decide your journey over the next four and a half years. so So after coming to that decision, um i did yeah agree to start my PhD. Initially, it was supposed to be the middle of 2020.
00:05:02
Speaker
um and got pushed back to the beginning of 2021 because of COVID. In the meantime, I worked in Las Vegas after my ah graduation of my undergraduate to kind of fill space for a bit. um And then, yeah, came to Singapore in 2021 and have been here ever since.
00:05:17
Speaker
So, yeah, that's a bit about me. and People always ask how I've ended up here, um how, you know, ah American guy from Vegas ends up in Singapore. But yeah, yeah I hope that gives some some additional context on that.
00:05:31
Speaker
Exactly, because I think Vegas is not known for its ah science industry or ah universities, like academic academics.
00:05:41
Speaker
Correct. So um how did you choose to become a scientist or did you have like an aha moment when you grew up, when you think about majors in college?
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's an interesting question. um I would say falling in love with science has been something that has been very gradual for me. I guess the closest thing I would have to an aha moment was actually an internship I did. i think it was after my junior year of high school.
00:06:12
Speaker
So I was about 16 or 17. And both my my mom has worked in like retail and operations her entire life. And my dad has worked in finance. So I've kind of been around that space my entire life. So actually up to that,
00:06:25
Speaker
time. um i always wanted, I was interested in business. I didn't know specifically what that meant, whether it was banking or finance or venture capitalism, et cetera. But I actually, because of this interest, got an internship at a bank um when I was, yeah, again, 16 or 17.
00:06:42
Speaker
And I just hated it. Like, I just, like, it was tough. Like, the people were very nice. um But it was clear to me that that path wasn't going to, like, really fulfill me in any way, shape, or form. Like, even after two weeks, I was burnt out of, like, heading to that office because I knew...
00:06:57
Speaker
I was gonna be doing the same thing I did the day before. um So that was my aha moment, I guess, to like really turn me towards science. um I always had like better test scores in that regard. like My math testing was pretty strong. and I always liked chemistry because, especially as we got like more towards like the organic chemistry side of things, it's very visual.
00:07:18
Speaker
like I'm a very visual learner, so I gravitate more towards the fields of math and science that can be visually represented especially with like good teachers in classroom settings and things like that. So to be honest, I chose my major of chemical engineering more based on my skill set.
00:07:34
Speaker
i I kind of believe the sentiment that you know in an ideal world, everyone would do you know what their dream is or what they love the most. But I think you have to kind of leverage your expertise and your skills as well.
00:07:48
Speaker
And then what I experienced is as I put more and more hours into it, you know the 10,000 hour rule and I faced challenges but overcame those challenges and then saw the rewards that came with that, I began to like fall more and more ah in loved, for lack of a better word, with like science and more specifically like academic research.
00:08:08
Speaker
um So I guess the short answer the question would be, I don't think Las Vegas had anything to do with developing being my scientific, I guess, interest or acumen. It was really just ah like a, at the time, like need-based. Like i wanted I wanted to be sure I could get a job out of college and that, you know, what I would was doing suited what I was you know most effective at.
00:08:30
Speaker
Exactly. i think I think you put it really well where kind of your story illustrates that it's less about what your passion is, especially if you ask a kid who doesn't really understand the working world. It's more about just sticking to something that you are...
00:08:49
Speaker
um uh, adequately good at and keep working at it. And then as you improve, as you get better, as you overcome challenges, then you find you kind of grow your love for the, for that craft over time.
00:09:03
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so as now that you've completed your PhD and, you know, looking back to this journey, what does it mean to you, ah to be a scientist in today's world and kind of what motivates you to wake up every day?
00:09:22
Speaker
So I think that question would depend specifically on like what field of science you're doing. I'll focus on like the sustainability aspect side of things because I think it's most rev ah yeah relevant to my research and what I've done. But I think being a scientist, if I had to say one thing that always defines a good scientist, and I've really learned this from my supervisor and then also ah my mentors I've had as well, is curiosity.
00:09:49
Speaker
So to me, like the best scientists are incredibly curious people that are always scrutinizing or trying to poke holes into how things are done currently. From a sustainability aspect, that means, you know, how can we make this chemical process more environmentally benign, reduce carbon emissions, things like that.
00:10:09
Speaker
um I think also a scientist is a constant problem solver as well. um In the green chemistry context, this means finding different avenues to utilize waste, I believe.
00:10:25
Speaker
um But I want to relate. I think if i really could sum it up in one word, yeah, curiosity and creativity really define like good scientists because these are people that are naturally, you know, you don't have to hand them a textbook problem to get their mind working on things. These are people that...
00:10:42
Speaker
Look, like drive by on a freeway um and see ah chemical plant and just one and they're just curious about what it is. um I can actually tell a little bit of a story about my supervisor that I think is really cool because it defines exactly what I said um as to what makes a ah great, you know amazing, in his case, scientist was...
00:11:01
Speaker
um One of the projects he actually brought to NUS. So he was, he grew up in China, did his undergrad and PhD at Peking University, and then spent some time in Switzerland before he came to NUS. But during that time, he was actually out at a restaurant one time, and he was eating prawns, you know, just like, ah so crustacean shell waste essentially is like crabs, lobster, shrimp, right? So you get a shrimp in a restaurant, you pop it open, you eat the shrimp, and you get rid of the shell.
00:11:27
Speaker
and So... His curiosity, just he saw all this shrimp waste being dumped into a trash can. And just the way his mind works is he was interested, you know is there anything valuable within that shell waste that's worth extracting out and turning this, what's otherwise like environmental discharge, right? Because otherwise it just goes to a landfill There's literally taxes associated with it. It's a logistical expense for these restaurants or shell food manufacturers to get rid of it. So it just that aspect of seeing trash and just seeing it being be completely like thrown away just got his mind working. And that's how he initiated process.
00:12:10
Speaker
principle and concept that he eventually brought to NUS and was kind of his like calling card for quite some time. So I think that's just, ah you know, one very like niche example. But I think like that mindset of always questioning, like, could this be better? Could this waste be valuable?
00:12:27
Speaker
Things like that. I think that's what it means to be a scientist. Right. And you just kind of follow your natural curiosity and don't just think about the question, but also actually, you know, chase them, pursue them and, um, see if you can actually do something differently, uh, find ways to solve the problem. Um, you know, I think most of us go on our days just, um, in, in the, um,
00:12:57
Speaker
uh, old emotion, like you don't ask about, oh, why are things being done this way? um just because they've always been this way. Right. Uh, but it's, it's because of the effort and the innovations from scientists, engineers, um, uh, entrepreneurs over time that we got to where we are today.
00:13:19
Speaker
Which is kind of also in the spirit of this podcast is exploring, um you know, asking questions that people wouldn't usually um cared um and diving deeper into topics that um are probably overlooked in the society today.
00:13:35
Speaker
I think you touched a little bit on your research just now on green chemistry. So perhaps now is a good segue to um explore more on your professional side of things. um Can you give us just a quick 101 for someone who has um it just a basic understanding of chemistry? What is green chemistry or what is this area of science that you're working on?
00:14:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So green chemistry, I mean, I could regurgitate some like textbook definition for you, but essentially what green chemistry is is it's replacing environmentally harmful processes with those that are sustainable and not to use the word in the definition, but like green and beneficial for the environment.
00:14:21
Speaker
So some of the KPIs for this, for example, are things like energy usage is a huge one, CO2 emissions. There's a... There's a analysis we do called the life cycle analysis.
00:14:34
Speaker
And although I'm not ah you know an expert on it, I understand the basics of it, but essentially what it does is it can go from what's called cradle to grave, like the start of the process to the end product, sale, distribution, et cetera, and quite literally quantify all of these different sustainability metrics. So, you know, like one example is,
00:14:57
Speaker
in terms of the green chemistry context is you're always essentially trying to replace harmful reagents with milder, less intensive ones. So just one ah example of this is I'll kind of touch on my PhD thesis is the CO2 hydrogenation to methanol project. so For someone that doesn't maybe know these terms so well, like methanol is essentially it's an additive for fuel.
00:15:23
Speaker
So in a layman's sense, you can kind of equate methanol to gasoline, fuel, et cetera. um And currently this is produced through the burning of fossil fuels. So in order to create this methanol, you have to do a ton of, there's,
00:15:38
Speaker
There comes with it an enormous amount of environmental discharge. So this includes things like wastewater, exhaust, like raw material dumping into landfills, things like that. And all of these can be quantified in that analysis I mentioned earlier.
00:15:52
Speaker
So in and then in my reaction, so an example of a green chemistry um integrated reaction is CO2 hydrogenation to methanol.
00:16:03
Speaker
because we're taking CO2, which is a greenhouse gas, so that means it contributes to global warming, and we're taking this otherwise harmful gas and we're capturing it, and now we're utilizing it to make a value-adding chemical, which is methanol in this case.
00:16:18
Speaker
And so you can understand with that example then, we're essentially eliminating the use of this very environmentally harmful raw material and replacing it with One that actually benefits the environment if you remove it.
00:16:33
Speaker
So I think if the, it was mentioned in the introduction, but I think the one phrase I always kind of keep in mind from a green chemistry sense is waste to value.
00:16:46
Speaker
Like what is currently harming our environment? Again, this can this spans an enormous amount of avenues, right? It can be pollution, wastewater, nuclear energy in some cases.
00:16:59
Speaker
you can kind of get like your mind can go crazy, like thinking of all the different potentials. But we essentially want to take anything that's considered waste or harmful to the environment and extract value from it, not only to reduce or eliminate its...
00:17:14
Speaker
I guess, introduction to the environment. But by doing so, we're then able to replace environmentally harmful processes. So it really attacks, you know, the kind of net carbon zero and the circular carbon economy metrics that a lot of these countries that have an emphasis on sustainability are trying to hit.
00:17:36
Speaker
It really attacks these this perspective ah twofold because you're not only reducing the amount of harmful discharge in the atmosphere, you're using that harmful discharge to replace the creation of more harmful discharge as well.
00:17:52
Speaker
So it's a direct reduction, but also an indirect reduction through elimination. um And so that's why green catalysts in my case and sustainable technology is really at the forefront of what's driving a lot of investment these days is because there's a ton of government pressure, you know, varying on the country, but at least globally, to make these processes more sustainable.
00:18:17
Speaker
So I hope that answers the question. But again, i think the the main thing, if you really want hone in ah for one phrase, is the waste of value proposition. I think if that can be kind of your like working mindset, then your processes are going to naturally become more green and efficient over time.
00:18:36
Speaker
I see it now. it's I think you explained it perfectly, kind of illustrating um why this is so important today, but also how this...
00:18:49
Speaker
um is a very efficient way because it not only eliminates the waste, but also it contributes to ah better way of producing the same chemicals that we require. We're not absolutely trying to ah reduce the amount of energy need or consumption or um utilization. We're just finding alternative ways to ah satisfy those needs.
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. um But I think the natural question following that would be why it hasn't been done this way for all this long time ah of human, I guess, the history in the history of science. Right.
00:19:31
Speaker
And what were the bottlenecks? What were the challenges? Is this the... um Were they at the innovation part? Was like yeah like, if you think about it, like in the chemistry labs, or was it more in the real world in terms of commercialization, mass production, scaling, or is it the government on the regulation regulation side?
00:19:53
Speaker
um Why it hasn't been done this way? yeah Yeah, that's a great question. I think <unk>s ah there are many factors that contribute to it, and I'll kind of just touch on some of them. So in the initial stages, it was quite literally a scientific question, was the know-how wasn't published or well-established enough to replace these environmentally harmful processes.
00:20:15
Speaker
um i I found we actually had a ETH, so ETH Jerich, one of the top universities in Switzerland. we actually They actually have a joint workshop with ah the Center of Hydrogen Innovations at NUS.
00:20:29
Speaker
And there was a really interesting discussion there because it was a lot of the top experts in science kind of presenting their ideas. And what I found to be very interesting was we're actually to a point now where the technology is completely developed.
00:20:43
Speaker
Even, for example, keep the i'll I'll use CO2 as kind of like the use case for for this conversation ah just to keep it consistent. But, again, I mentioned CO2 is a greenhouse gas, so this is a direct, I guess, bad guy, for lack of a better word, too for global warming.
00:21:00
Speaker
um So now the technology is actually in place now to where not only can we capture CO2 efficiently. So any process that emits CO2, you can have like these membrane, you can kind of think of them as like filters in a layman's sense to just capture the CO2 and prevent it from entering the atmosphere.
00:21:19
Speaker
But in terms of the CO2 that's already in the atmosphere, there's actually technology in place for that as well. to basically sanction suction it up is essentially what it it is and directly then reduce our CO2 emissions, right?
00:21:32
Speaker
Because right now the graph you see, like greenhouse gas emissions, it's straight line up. But we actually have the technology in place now to start reversing the curve. um But it's a matter of two things at this point now that the science has developed. It's cost.
00:21:47
Speaker
And it's what goes hand in hand with cost is government regulation um in terms of in a global aspect, and I'll kind of touch on each one. um So in terms of cost, a lot of times you have this green chemistry principle, right? And you get into the lab and you're able to find a new green reagent for something that's able to produce your target product.
00:22:13
Speaker
However, the cost of that reagent and maybe the complexity needed to develop it on a large scale is not cost-effective from a techno-economic analysis. So it's going to be basically if you want to use your harsh reagents, which are your things like sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide,
00:22:33
Speaker
These are like bulk enormous. You get them in like megaton containers and they're in basically inexpensive, like almost essentially like free, like near the cost of water because of how streamlined the processes for production are.
00:22:47
Speaker
um And so it's very difficult to motivate these large chemical companies that have been in place and operating in a profitable environment. kind of model for so long to now have this enormous cost increase because a lot of green reagents are inherently more expensive due to some of the complexities that you have to integrate in order to leverage upon like the chemistry for it.
00:23:15
Speaker
um So where it really gets interesting is when a process is more ah greener and more sustainable, but also more cost effective, which is what we're doing for our startup.
00:23:27
Speaker
It's because we understand simply saying a process is is greener isn't going to be good enough in most cases. You know, there are some companies ah like in Saudi Arabia, you know, these places with endless amounts of money that are willing to pay double the price for, again, being consistent with methanol, for example, to say we have green methanol.
00:23:46
Speaker
um But that's just because like they have endless money and basically their their cost of goods doesn't – it's a rounding error for them. So in a lot of cases where like you know these COOs and these finance people are looking at every line item, it can be difficult at times to justify the use of green chemistry when the cost increase is so significant.
00:24:08
Speaker
and Another thing I touched on too is – it's kind of like the elephant in the room – is each country has a different – level of emphasis on green technology and sustainability as a whole.
00:24:21
Speaker
um So for example, some companies like Iceland, they give you enormous tax credits and like carbon credits if you use sustainable technology. So they make like the cost of electricity much cheaper, for example, if you use if you're using your electricity for a sustainable process.
00:24:39
Speaker
So Iceland is a great place. um to be an entrepreneur in the, in the green technology side of things. Cause they quite literally financially incentivize you to do it.
00:24:50
Speaker
That's not the case with every country and every country is different as well. Um, and I say that in terms of like a global implementation of technology standpoint is,
00:25:00
Speaker
If the technology in some cases is more expensive to implement, then countries are going to be at different capacities to be able to afford. it kind of You can understand it becomes a like almost a luxury in that sense, right? Like if country is you know very well off, has high GDP, et cetera, and can afford to...
00:25:20
Speaker
you know, bring the hammer down on some of these companies that don't use sustainable technology to motivate them to do so, then it's more like it's a luxury in that context where like, you know, developing countries, countries that struggle in that regard, they need their company, like they need the companies based in their country to be able to you know operate functionally and in a profitable manner and keep people employed and things like that.
00:25:45
Speaker
So it not only becomes a question of emphasis, but also resources available to do so. And you know there's like some conflict going on in the Middle East and Russia and the Ukraine. And you can imagine then like the level of priority for these people that are quite literally at war for green and sustainable technology is not so high. Like they're worried about today and tomorrow and like a week from now, not 25 to 30 years down the road or even more in some cases. So it's, it's a question that we could probably like talk about for an hour just on that topic alone.
00:26:19
Speaker
But those are some of like the high level things that I've found to be really interesting, especially once I learned more about the technology and was convinced that the technology is actually in place. It's just a matter of countries not choosing to integrate it for a variety of reasons.
00:26:34
Speaker
um So I hope that kind of yeah answers the question again. There's more I can get into. Yeah, absolutely. So if I can just post a statement to you and and then and then you tell me your thoughts, whether it's true or false.
00:26:48
Speaker
um I think the belief is green technologies are inherently more expensive then um than the current way of doing things, than traditional i mean fossil fuel production or whether it's in the chemistry industries.
00:27:05
Speaker
What do you think of that? So I think... In terms of like actual dollars, is we don't like i would punt on that question for a while because we don't know yet. I will say it is absolutely more expensive from an intellectual capital standpoint.
00:27:21
Speaker
Basically, like, because we like, again, there could be some solution that nobody has found yet that makes green and sustainable technology actually more affordable than the fossil fuel derived routes.
00:27:32
Speaker
um And it would depend like on each field, too. There are a lot of, you know, very encouraging cases where it's not ah more expensive than fossil fuel derived route. But for these giant processes like methanol production, for example.
00:27:44
Speaker
There are people like working towards it, and when you contextualize kind of like how recently we've begun this emphasis on green chemistry versus where we're at, and you contextualize that versus the development of fossil fuels in that time, big because people have to understand, like Things like the Harbor-Bosch process, for example, are some of these processes that are like a very fossil fuel intensive, but now very streamlined and optimized. like This wasn't the case centuries ago. yeah And even those processes took decades and centuries of work to develop and get to the point they are now.
00:28:20
Speaker
And so when you look at like the development of science from a green tech standpoint, in relation to that, I think we're on a good pace, actually. Like, it's just that we haven't you know, we started the race like a bit later, whereas like these other like processes they've had, again, decades and centuries of yeah of development.
00:28:40
Speaker
um And so I do think like it's progressing quite um encouragingly, yeah but it does require, like I said, a large amount of intellectual capital. So that literally means like brain power, whether it's professors or these joint programs or whatever it is, is like people have to like quite literally like solve these problems.
00:29:00
Speaker
And that's where because of kind of the head start that the other processes got where it's more expensive for lack of a better term is in terms of like, yeah, again, the intellectual capital.
00:29:12
Speaker
Right. That's what I had in mind too, that characterization of the um the traditional industries had centuries or of decades of head start. Right.
00:29:23
Speaker
So it's unfair to compare them for versus a stage of green technologies today. Absolutely. Like what was probably deemed impossible to them at the time has now been shown possible.
00:29:35
Speaker
So a lot of these green ah processes where you know people are arguing, oh, it's impossible to make it more affordable than a fossil fuel derived route. you know Just give it some time. yeah ah Can you ah perhaps give us some examples of what are the most promising technologies, whether ones you're working on, related to what you're working on, or just the ones that are half and massively adopted today?
00:30:00
Speaker
I'll talk specifically about the one I will have worked on because it's considered like one of the like big giants is is the methanol production. So you can imagine, I think methanol, yeah, it's produced $55 trillion dollar per year annually.
00:30:17
Speaker
Methanol is a fossil fuel? it's so it's a It's basically like a fuel additive. Okay. So it's like a man component in gasoline. So in the burning process, it releases greenhouse gas?
00:30:31
Speaker
ah Yes, it can. ah In the production of methanol, it produces a large amount of greenhouse gas. So this is one of those like technical giants that like people have a lot of interest in. okay um I think it's progressing like quite nicely.
00:30:44
Speaker
One thing that is really important, I don't want to like get too off topic, but... It goes back to your earlier question is a lot of times what you can prove to be and your earlier question about why more green technology hasn't been adopted yet is what can be proven in the lab oftentimes is very difficult to prove on a larger and larger and larger scale too.
00:31:09
Speaker
um So CO2 to methanol, it's been proven on the lab scale pretty well. And now people are more so focused on the um operational side of things.
00:31:21
Speaker
I think one ah one thing that will be really, really important that is progressing incredibly nicely is the cost of green ah hydrogen. ah Because green hydrogen, for example, it makes up 80% of the cost for green methanol.
00:31:35
Speaker
So in the CO2 to methanol process, 80% of your cost is coming from the cost of green hydrogen. If you lower the cost of that, it will dramatically, it's like a game changer. Exactly. It's like yeah what we call in science like a rate-limiting step.
00:31:48
Speaker
It's basically like you're your holdup, for lack of a better term. um But I think, yeah, green hydrogen is a huge one because that's going to be able to affect so many different reactions.
00:32:00
Speaker
And these pathways and processes that were otherwise deemed... uh, non-feasible from an economic standpoint are going to become a lot more cost effective once that green hydrogen costs come down. So I'm not a specific expert in in the technology for that field specifically. i more focus on what we do with the hydrogen once we get it.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah. But that's, that's a, that's actually an issue we faced with, with a lot of our projects when we pitched to investors and things like that is we're too reliant on the cost of ah green hydrogen.
00:32:31
Speaker
Yeah. And we're not the only ones. So yeah. and And again, there's a lot of great technology. People understand the emphasis. There's a lot of, but even within Singapore, there's been a lot of government push toward developing green hydrogen technology. So I think it's progressing nicely. I think the target is by the year 2030, it should be relatively affordable for these industrial processes. So that that would be the big one and that I've like experienced or I guess like felt the pain of ah most harshly in my research.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah, so so if we um take a step back here, and we can go back to CO2 to methanol later, just to understand kind of the landscape of the um opportunity we're addressing here, that the total addressable market,
00:33:19
Speaker
um There is CO2 to methanol. What are some other processes that people are working on that are trying to commercialize um in the green chemistry field?
00:33:32
Speaker
What are some other, I guess, reactions, if you can put in this terms of input, output, or reaction? Yeah, so we have guess we probably focus on... maybe seven to eight different reactions in our research group.
00:33:46
Speaker
ah So one of them being CO2 to methanol. Another huge one, um and this relates to what I'm working on now, is biomassel ah what we call biomass valorization or utilization.
00:33:58
Speaker
And so biomass is essentially just like any waste from nature. So it can be tree trunks, for example, or shell waste in our case, or plastics is biomass. So You can think of biomass utilization as kind of your typical recycling mindset where you want to take waste plastics, waste discharge, waste waste from animals and utilize it um to value-adding products. A lot of these products are in like the pharmaceutical and cosmetic ah sectors. Another thing we focus on, and and this is another big one, as well as ammonia cracking.
00:34:32
Speaker
So again, I'm not an expert on this specific reaction, but essentially what ammonia cracking is, it's an avenue for increased green and so sustainable hydrogen storage. um And it's a very like kind of fundamental concept to understand, but that's another huge one that we work on.
00:34:50
Speaker
ah Methane conversion as well. um So methane is just another gas, another greenhouse gas um that we focus on. I'm trying to think. Oh, and nitrogen activation is another one, too.
00:35:02
Speaker
um And of course, like this is just within our group, but, ah you know, the lithium ion batteries. And ah we also focus on electrocatalysis, which is huge for like EVs, for example, or fuel cells and things like that. So.
00:35:16
Speaker
um And then our group, our neighbors next door, so the professor next door, he focuses on membrane technology. So he's essentially, i mentioned, we use the CO2 and we use the hydrogen.
00:35:29
Speaker
He's the one that focuses on capturing it to reduce it from entering the atmosphere with like these very unique membrane systems. So he, you can kind of think of. It is like he captures it, then we use it and create something else. So yeah, those are just some of the ones we do, but really the you know the list of reactions is endless, but yeah we try to focus on the big ones. So again, that's CO2 hydrogenation, biomass conversion,
00:35:56
Speaker
Absolutely ammonia cracking and like methane conversion and nitrogen activation as well. Got it. And the and the the one you're working on right now is the CO2 hydrogenation. or that's one you So that was what my research before thesis was on. And now I'm doing biomass fractionation.
00:36:12
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Um, perhaps now tell us a bit more on your current project and kind of to the extent that you can share, um, what's your role in it and kind of what's its impact and what, what can people look forward to, um, as an average person on the street ah eating their prawns in the prawn noodles. So the project I discussed earlier that my supervisor brought to NUS with his inspiration being, you know, seeing the the shrimp shells get thrown away.
00:36:43
Speaker
um It's a shrimp shell utilization project, and we call it the ah biore like shellfish biorefinery. yeah um And so basically what it is is...
00:36:55
Speaker
We focus on three main sources of crustacean shells. So that's crab, shrimp, and lobster. And each of these three types of shells contains a very valuable chemical in it. I guess I can say the chemical is chitin.
00:37:07
Speaker
and So C-H-I-T-I-N. You can pronounce it chitin or chitin. um But this, ah and I won't get too much into the like organic chemistry nitty-gritty side of things, but it essentially has a very ah applicable functional group that can be used for a wide variety of industries. So I believe the the numbers kind of vary depending on what assumptions you use, but the market size for chitin currently is around 8 billion SGD and growing quite rapidly at like a CAGR of 13%.
00:37:38
Speaker
So this chemical within the shell waste is insanely valuable. um And so essentially what our technology does is we extract this very valuable chemical from this shell waste.
00:37:51
Speaker
ah Well, I guess I should add some context first. So right now we've proven a lot of the technology on a lab scale standpoint. um And I am the first person within the group to show interest in commercializing this idea.
00:38:04
Speaker
So what I do now currently is um I'm roughly defined as like the COO, as you know, this potential startup, my supervisor being the principal investigator, and we have two other team members, one on business and the one on tech.
00:38:17
Speaker
um So we're working towards commercializing this technology. So that includes all the different things that go into it, scaling it up, finding strategic partners, customers.
00:38:28
Speaker
um We have a program ah through NUS called GRIP. It stands for the Graduate Research Investment Program that is specializing at helping deep tech startups.
00:38:39
Speaker
giving us you know the info we need, the connections we need, et cetera. So that's what I'll be beginning full-time in July. um So I guess before we delve deeper, like you mentioned this chemical, insanely valuable chemistry gold, chitin.
00:38:58
Speaker
um Tell us like what it is. like How is it currently being used, and why is there such a big opportunity area? kind of What does it go into perhaps? So it's main, but that's a great question. um There are companies, a lot of companies use it currently for, it has so many different applications, but the higher margin utilizations for it are cosmetics and pharmaceuticals.
00:39:22
Speaker
um So in terms of like what it is, it's a specific like nitrogen functional group. If people like want to get into the science side of things, but
00:39:33
Speaker
Higher margin markets are pharmaceuticals and cosmetics. um In terms of like um pharmaceuticals, it's ah used quite often for wound healing. So um it's an additive for bandage that help wounds heal, help burn wounds heal, things like that.
00:39:47
Speaker
ah Cosmetics, I think it's your basic kind of like makeup, palette, variety of products. A lot of people, and this is something we're considering as we're industrializing it, is it's also ah quite applicable for wastewater treatment and agriculture.
00:40:04
Speaker
And these markets are particularly interesting because they have lower barriers of entry. So you can kind of enter these markets a bit more easily. yeah Another thing that we're also exploring as well is within our group we don't only focus on the extraction of this chemical chitin but also the conversion of it as well so i mentioned it's it's very valuable because a lot of companies like i'm just making up one ah but wilmar for example or like dupont or shell like they'll take chitin and they'll then convert it into something that's even value even higher value adding yeah so we also have a lot of really great technology from our group for this as well, ah for chitin to a wide variety of different products.
00:40:44
Speaker
yeah So we're exploring that as well, you know whether or not we want to sell this chitin or if we want to take it and- Value add. yeah Yeah, value add, you know whether or not the additional infrastructure, reagents, et cetera, is worth the cost of selling it a bit extra. where Where do these companies currently get chitin from?
00:41:02
Speaker
So ah there are other companies that do chitin extraction from shell waste. Like we're not the first people to come up with this idea, but we're the first ones to do it sustainably.
00:41:13
Speaker
And as I kind of alluded to earlier, it's not just a sustainability play. It's also yeah cheaper. Yeah. um So is your question where there's a, like the largest manufacturer in Asia is from China.
00:41:24
Speaker
Yeah. um Does it only come from a shell waste? kind No, no. So there are like. So the chitins currently exist in the existing products in the in the industries, in cosmetic industry, pharmaceuticals.
00:41:38
Speaker
Yeah. So they use like typical like organic chemistry precursors and things like that for it. So rather than like extract the chitin from shell waste or like anything that has it in the first place, you can quite literally like synthesize it.
00:41:51
Speaker
Got it. Got it. So they don't, they don't get it as a ready-made ah chemical input, but they use the chemical. It would depend. I mean, some people like people that focus on kite and conversion, like they're just getting it ready-made. Okay. But then there's some company out there that is making it in the lab and then supplying them to it.
00:42:08
Speaker
Supplying them with it, I mean. Oh, and the process of extracting it is is more efficient. It's more cost-effective, I get yeah presume. Yeah, yeah absolutely.
00:42:20
Speaker
Okay. um Just going back to what he said, do you work with these companies currently? ah the the list of companies you mentioned, like Walmart, Shell? Not yet, but we're going to start making calls very soon.
00:42:32
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, there's like some things we have to... I know we talked about it off camera, but... What's very interesting um is that this is like a process-oriented technology, meaning that like the chitin we sell, like although it is higher quality than others, um is you can't like distinguish chitin as like patented product, right? It's commodity. So it's more so like the process is patented. And although you can patent a process, it's very difficult to enforce.
00:43:01
Speaker
um So these are things we have to kind of keep in mind when we look for strategic partners. um We want to look at partners maybe like a few, like two to three stages, like down the supply chain um so that, you know, they're not so close to like the chitin extraction technology. But yeah, we're, we're, um,
00:43:21
Speaker
There's a lot of different ways we could go and that's kind of like some cost benefit analyses we're doing. But I think the most important step will be like customer outreach at this stage because we will really want to understand, you know, how are people purchasing Kitan typically? Like, do they want this purity? Do they want this grade of it?
00:43:40
Speaker
Um, in the case of our conversion potentials, um, you know, are these products people are interested in or are they purchased in such low quantities that you couldn't justify the cost?
00:43:53
Speaker
Um, so these are kind of some of the things we're looking at now, but,
00:43:58
Speaker
I guess ah in in the, imagine like we're in the chemistry lab of your ah your research group and the trying to solve this problem. um Where do you get the, I guess, the shells from the crafts and then... Right now, fair price. I swear. You can get them at fair price.
00:44:20
Speaker
And once you, I mean, go through the chemistry process, which I won't delve into, it's considered your patent processes. And at the other end, this chitin product, um how, if I want to imagine the chitin, what does it look like? Is this like ah in the liquid form, in like in the gas? That's a good question. So yeah, the chitin itself, I'll kind of touch on the raw material question first because I mentioned like from a lab scale we do get our chitin or excuse me our shell waste from fair price. Yeah.
00:44:53
Speaker
But that's also one of the huge benefits of doing this type of technology in Southeast Asia because Southeast Asia is the number one generator of shell waste. So the three countries that generate the most are India, Thailand and Vietnam.
00:45:07
Speaker
um And so we're going to be like on the larger scale, that's where but we're going to be getting our shell waste from. We're going to be making like, we'll find, you know, the suppliers in India, Vietnam, Thailand, all other places in Southeast Asia as well.
00:45:22
Speaker
And that really helps us a lot because it de-risks our supply chain. um Whereas you can imagine if you're relying on one kind of kind ah country and their regulations for it, then...
00:45:34
Speaker
something can go bad if if something changes in that one specific country. um In terms of like what the actual product looks like, it's a powder, a powder chitin. Yes. okay But there are ways to liquefy it. And actually, if you liquefy it, the value becomes a bit higher because the people that want to use the chitin prefer it in a liquid form.
00:45:55
Speaker
um So that's also something we're exploring. When I mentioned the chitin conversion, we also kind of group liquefaction into that as well. um So that's a, again, that's a question that will depend on our our ah market research. You know, are people willing to purchase it in the powder form or do they want it in the liquid form?
00:46:13
Speaker
And, you know, how does this kind of change our business model? So I guess you're trying to ah enter this market by positioning yourself as a more superior product. I'm just trying to think in the head of a commercialization officer or CO and,
00:46:33
Speaker
Currently, they your clients purchase chitin in one way or another from other supply chain alternatives, right? And you're trying to knock them out of their production process, of their procurement process.
00:46:50
Speaker
Or are you trying to replace some other chemicals that are not chitin or chitin-related? I think right now we're focusing on chitin specifically. ok um You mentioned kind of what we call like technological differentiators.
00:47:04
Speaker
um That's basically what we do better than other people. yeah um So our chitin higher purity because like our green and sustainable reagents, they don't destroy the chitin as much as some of these harsher reagents.
00:47:18
Speaker
And also because of the efficiency of our process, our minimum selling price is roughly half of the traditional processes. So we can sell a higher product at a lower cost compared to our competitor. if That's kind of our technological differentiator.
00:47:34
Speaker
um And plus you have the, I guess, a greener process sustainability side. Exactly. um ah Do you have a rough measure of the impact if everyone were to convert their charting procurement from biomass rather than the chemistry reaction? Yeah, we have the numbers, yeah.
00:47:57
Speaker
yeah Like how much, but is it like in it's like quantity of CO2 reduction? Right, energy usage, et cetera. Yeah, it's orders of magnitude less. I think that's that would be huge because the companies then can you know talk about their work count in in the green sustainability aspects. It's been a huge issue with whether from the board or the external stakeholders.
00:48:20
Speaker
I think another thing that Because we talk about sustainability, like there's the research side of things, which I kind of touched on earlier, but there are actually huge benefits if you can find a good process from the commercial side of things as well.
00:48:34
Speaker
And I'll just kind of give you an example is because our process is more green and sustainable, basically like the shell waste contains four components. So if you're getting like raw shell waste, it contains the chitin, a little bit of water, so you just have to dry it out, and then proteins and calcium carbonate.
00:48:51
Speaker
and So essentially the process is... These other companies, they remove the protein and then they remove the calcium carbonate. But because they they use these very harsh reagents, the protein that they remove and the calcium carbonate that they remove are very diluted with hazardous chemicals, meaning that you can't utilize these other products.
00:49:10
Speaker
So their only, i guess, end product is like their extracted chitin. Whereas like if you do this process more sustainably, then you open the door up to these other precursors that you're removing, again, it goes into my my idea of waste to value, right? In their case, their waste is literally the calcium carbonate in the proteins because they have to remove these to extract their chitin.
00:49:30
Speaker
um But we can actually use this waste as something valuable because the technology we're using is like, it still preserves that as well. does It doesn't contaminate the byproducts. Exactly, exactly. And so because of this, we can make literally every step in the process a profit generator.
00:49:50
Speaker
And this is incredibly valuable to investors, not because they just want to say, oh, you're green, you're sustainable, like we're so happy. It's because you're de-risking your entire like business plan and model yeah is if you're not completely reliant on solely the sale of chitin and you still are calcium carbonate, for example, it's used in like low carbon cement or proteins. Like you can literally sell it to like farms because like animals, animal feed. Exactly. Yeah. um These are all things that like will get investors really happy.
00:50:21
Speaker
um And so that's something I'm glad like we came to this point because not only does this waste of value proposition, it doesn't only just benefit the environment as well, but if you can kind of think about this and just make ah what we call like our process design, which is like quite ah quite literally like how you design like a power plant, for example, you usually do it on like simulation first and then like build it out small scale and then large scale. But if you can integrate that waste of value mindset into your supply chain and your process design, then you're going to find ways to,
00:50:53
Speaker
create value adding products that otherwise weren't there. And so investors get pretty excited about that as well. and year And that has nothing to do with just pure like sustainability, right? This is now it's like, now you're, we're talking quite literally now. Yeah. Cause like, yeah, now you're really incentivizing them. Like now you're tapping into like their bottom line yeah and how you can improve it potentially. And that's what really interests them more so than a green, green chemistry context.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah. So so in that in that example you mentioned, the bad guy is the reagent. That's kind of yeah the part of the ah reaction process that introduce the harmful inputs or the chemical elements. And induces high cost too. Because anytime you're using like a harsh reagent, yeah your equipment has to be much more corrosive for or excuse me, corrosion resistant for it.
00:51:46
Speaker
okay So your reactor costs, so they're going to go much higher. Your reactor maintenance is going to go much higher. They're gonna depreciate much further. yeah These are all things that we integrate into what we call like techno-economic analyses.
00:51:58
Speaker
So we quite literally map up like every single step of the process and do the math and just like understand what it's going to cost and what we're getting out of it. What are reagents and ah what what do you how do you replace them in your process, I guess, to make it more sustainable?
00:52:14
Speaker
ah So yeah a reagent is basically just anything that like drives a reaction. Okay. Is it ah the same term catalyst? Do they say the same thing? or You can kind of use them like yes and no, like a...
00:52:27
Speaker
I think of like a catalyst as anything that improves the reaction. Okay. um But it kind of depends like how you want to... you some people like Some people call ah reagents catalysts because it is like technically driving the reaction.
00:52:39
Speaker
Okay. A lot of times people add catalysts to reagents. That's kind of like the most like straightforward way of understanding it. Okay. um Yeah. There's also different fields of catalysts too. There's like homogeneous catalysis where it's basically like you're adding...
00:52:53
Speaker
a water catalyst to a water reagent, like HOMO as in keeping it the same. And then CO2 hydrogenation, for example, is like a heterogeneous catalysis system because my catalyst is like a solid material, but the reaction is gas phase.
00:53:06
Speaker
So it depends, like the how you want to like manipulate the definition depends a bit on like the specific reaction. But you can kind of think of it as that way, as like the reagent, AKA, we can roughly define it as the catalyst that drives the reaction.
00:53:21
Speaker
So again, and in this case, the reaction is the removal of proteins or the removal of the calcium carbonate. So you want to like essentially engineer a reaction that does that efficiently.
00:53:34
Speaker
And in the past, the reagent is very harsh, harsh things. So it's basically like we're changing what you dump the shrimp shell waste into. Got it. yeah And ah are these reagents, I guess, who, I guess they're also people who make a living out of producing these harmful reagents.
00:53:56
Speaker
and Yeah, that's what I was mentioning earlier. is like These reagents, the harmful reagents are actually incredibly standardized because from like from a chemistry standpoint, it's like very straightforward. like You use a very strong acid, it's easy to remove calcium carbonate.
00:54:08
Speaker
um So like chemistry-wise, it's not that complicated. but Yeah, these are like what we call like commodity chemicals. like like yeah the Something like hydrochloric acid, for example, is like incredibly standardized and very cheap.
00:54:21
Speaker
And so they have so many revenue sources for it. like if it gets cut out of one process. There's always going to be a need for it. yeah um But yeah, I mean, so but those are like the big giants kind of take care of that. Yeah.
00:54:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I presume they're also more than happy or open to ah um integrating other, and if it's commercially sensible, right?
00:54:48
Speaker
Integrating other production or reaction processes to their business model as well. um So if you think about like the next steps of commercializing the technology, and you mentioned like knocking on, knocking doors and making cold calls to these companies.
00:55:07
Speaker
What do you anticipate them to ask you or ah in both their due diligence process or ask you to improve work on? So the number one thing we need to do now, um the technology is pretty ironclad. like We've already been awarded for it like ah decent amount and we've received over a million dollars in funding for it already.
00:55:27
Speaker
um But what we need to do from a tech standpoint is we need to scale it up. Because right now we only we basically that most we've done is 25 grams of shell waste, which is big for a lab sense. But we're talking like kilotons is what we're going to eventually need to get to. And it's very interesting. You know, it's like Murphy's Law. It's.
00:55:48
Speaker
You would think like, when you okay, we want to run this bigger, like let's just get a bigger reaction, ah excuse me, a bigger reactor, add more reagents, add more shell waste, and the numbers should all stay the same. But it never works like that.
00:56:00
Speaker
You have to scale it like very gradually. And there's going to be mass transport or heat transport or thermodynamic issues that cause come you know to the surface when you try to increase the scale of it.
00:56:14
Speaker
And so that's what we are diving into a lot on the technical side of things is we need to now scale it up. Because, again, we have shown the clear benefit on the lab scale.
00:56:26
Speaker
So if we can replicate these numbers on a much larger scale, it's pretty... andarable But until we do that, that's what people are going to want to see.
00:56:37
Speaker
So I would say like the scale up is really like, again, to use the term rate limiting step, that's that's what we need to do. And we want to have a strategic part. But one thing to consider too is this is incredibly like capital intensive, right? You can imagine um building like a power plant is going to take tens if not hundreds of million dollars of capital.
00:56:59
Speaker
And so that's something we're looking for. at as well with our strategic partners is somebody that has that infrastructure in place already to where we can use their large-scale reactors to kind of iron out some of these issues that we anticipate finding.
00:57:11
Speaker
And then once we have those protocols in place, and that's another way to inherently protect your technology, even if the patent's not so enforceable, is... We know that there's gonna be a lot of know-how needed at these different scale-up stages.
00:57:27
Speaker
And so even if they understand what we're doing on a very small scale, that's not gonna help them that much when it comes time to scale up. So that's ah another way to protect the patent. but And the power plant part is because you need the electricity?
00:57:40
Speaker
Or you just need the space and the equipment? You need the space, but mostly the equipment and the distribution center. um What was I gonna say?
00:57:51
Speaker
It's very, yeah, it's, um oh, one thing ah people don't like, one thing investors hate to hear is licensing. Yeah. Because you can imagine, like, one of, we use it as, like, a plan, like, C, D, or E, like, very, like,
00:58:07
Speaker
break in case of glass emergency, ah break glass in case of emergency type thing, I mean, but yeah, licensing, they don't like to hear because it's kind of just like a lazy way to do it. Like you have this process and then you license it to somebody else that does the exact same thing that you do.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yeah. um Which has like, then you're marginalizing your returns potentially. And when investors invest into a company, they want to be able to get anywhere from like eight to 10 X at the very least back of their investment.
00:58:33
Speaker
yeah So when they hear licensing, they're like, okay, it's not worth it. Um, but from your standpoint, so what do you think about licensing versus in-house? No, I agree with it. I mean, like licensing is like a worst case scenario to where like, you don't get, if we couldn't find a partner, yeah. If we're like out of, I don't know, I don't even want to go there.
00:58:55
Speaker
Um,
00:58:57
Speaker
But the the real money makers is doing it yourself. yeah like make Yeah. Like sourcing the shrimp shells yourself, doing the process yourself, and selling the kite in yourself. That's where like you're going to get the type of returns like you're going to want if you're taking the risk to build a startup.
00:59:11
Speaker
um So there's a different there's a bunch of different ways to like think about it. um That's why we've... I'm kind of like going off on tangents, but please just like, cause what I'm learning is like, where as we build a startup, like, and again, I mentioned my role is kind of like COO currently.
00:59:30
Speaker
And I think me specifically, like I'm the one that has like, I have to understand every single aspect of it. So yeah the business, the tech, the sales, the marketing, the distribution, et cetera. Yeah. Um, And I'm finding out now that all of these are very much so like intertwined with each other.
00:59:45
Speaker
yeah I'll give you an example is we have to understand that typically people when they purchase chitin, they're buying it in the kiloton scale. So enormous barrels like the tankers you see like near MBS, like that level of quantity.
01:00:00
Speaker
um And so we understand that in order The capital investment needed from our side needed to build the infrastructure to where we can hit that quantity is going to be insanely high.
01:00:12
Speaker
yeah And so we need to, in this short to medium term, we need to look at ways we can operate in in a profitable model with lower quantity of sale.
01:00:23
Speaker
And so that's why, for example, I've really started to explore a lot of the chitin conversion technologies. Because like I said, if we can just take our chitin and then convert it into something else that has more value and people buy it on a much lower quantity, right then that's how we can increase our margins yeah and not need the amount of capital needed to build that enormous infrastructure.
01:00:44
Speaker
right um Also what I said with like the the byproducts, using those as a potential profit avenue is there as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, again, to use the like the intertwining is this is all going to be dependent on what customers are looking for.
01:00:59
Speaker
Yeah. So we can anticipate, oh, we can convert our chitin into this, and this is more valuable so people will buy it. But until you find an actual customer, like, you don't have a product right is the way I'm looking at it. Or, like, for example, we can find out that, hey, like, our technology, like, the level of purity we're reaching, like, we actually don't need to get that high of purity chitin.
01:01:19
Speaker
yeah We can save some cost on these steps, yeah maybe produce it in either lower or larger amount depending on need and then sell it to them there. So all of these things are very intertwined. I think we're at the point now where the customer discovery is going to be really important because i got one really good piece of advice.
01:01:36
Speaker
And you can kind of see like – I'm struggling with this a bit because there are so many different potential uses for chitin, as I alluded to earlier. Yeah. Was your mind like you can get excited on a lot of different things.
01:01:47
Speaker
Yeah. But the advice I got was the only difference between a startup and a large, you know, giant company is focus. We need to find something that like a business model in the short term that is very focused, where we have a very reliable and consistent customer base and we can rely on that income.
01:02:06
Speaker
And then we can reinvest that into different avenues, whatever it be, whether it be building the larger infrastructure to make more cotton, whether it be... Because I mentioned like the higher margin uses of Chitin are like pharmaceuticals and cosmetics. But with these comes a much higher barrier of entry due to regulations and all the hurdles you have to jump into, especially if you're talking like pharmaceuticals.
01:02:30
Speaker
So this requires like this is a very capital intensive process. Just going through all the litigation needed to like basically prove your product is good enough to use for their products. these medicines. um So that's kind of like the high level like thought process we're going now.
01:02:45
Speaker
we just We need to identify but we call like low hanging fruit. yeah like What in the short term can we like use and make money off of? and then concurrently as we're doing this, we're going to be looking up as well and seeing like what we can then reinvest this money into and have like those really strong returns once we get that infrastructure built out.
01:03:08
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, I think um i can even feel the excitement when you talked about all these different potential areas of opportunities.
01:03:19
Speaker
um But on my mind was always that one thing you mentioned earlier is that this kind of loss in translation between what works in the lab scale to what works when you try to like scale it up, commercializing it um from, you know, milligram to kilogram, that process.
01:03:38
Speaker
um How do you know if a chemical reaction will work at a larger scale? Is it just a matter of Um, outside factors, like, do you have the right capital equipment, uh, controlled environment, or does the reaction kind of change the chemistry formula?
01:03:55
Speaker
It's actually more so like the chemistry of it changes quite a bit. Like there's a lot of things you have to consider from like an atomic to a molecular level. Yeah. Um, things like heat and mass transfer, thermodynamic limitations, runoffs.
01:04:07
Speaker
Yeah. Um, operating conditions can like naturally change, uh, There's a lot of different possibilities. To answer your question, how do you know? You don't know until you do it. You don't know until you actually like start to run experiments and then identify. there's Basically, like we have just like we did in the lab scale, there's ways to identify the problems and the reaction.
01:04:27
Speaker
yeah So basically, the the logic will be we scale it up. We just increase everything. If our numbers stay the same, great. We go to a higher scale. yeah If the numbers decrease, then we need to identify why, and we need to address the issue.
01:04:42
Speaker
or you know come up with a solution. And that this won't be my area of expertise. We have a CTO ok that will really focus on this. But um I think it is important for me at least to know like what the issues are because i need to know whether or not we need to outsource additional expertise for it or if it falls in line with the expertise of of our CTO. So you know they call them experiments for a reason. is You never know like what you're going to see. even You kind of – and I guess you this could go to your earlier question of like what makes a good scientist is like a good scientist will never view an experiment as a failure.
01:05:15
Speaker
Even if, let's say, for example, we test our technology at a higher scale and we find out it doesn't work because of a certain reason, then that's not a failure. you know we're learning.
01:05:26
Speaker
about what happens when you scale it up. And this is gonna guide us to, you know I have confidence in our team that we'll be able to like address the technical issue. um But this is kind of like the mindset you have to have. like If something fails, you It's like cliche, but like the Edison one is like, oh, I like when I was when he failed to you know make the light bulb, he was finding ways it didn't work.
01:05:48
Speaker
And I do think that's one of the most important mindsets any scientist can have, because especially during PhD, like you're going fail a lot. um I failed a lot. And I know we're going to fail a lot during our startup. There's going to be a lot of issues that come up.
01:06:03
Speaker
Um, but we just have to like, you know, take it one step at a time, like, um, fall back and leverage upon like the work we put in the, you know, reps we've put in the problem solving that we've shown in the past and, you know, work as a team to, to solve it. But yeah, you really don't know until you start to do the experiments, but all, all data is, is, is good data in my mind. Like you learn a lot by what doesn't work sometimes.
01:06:31
Speaker
Yeah. but's That's great advice. um I think as we come to the hour in the studio, um we learned a lot about your um your background, your journey in science, also about this specific startup you're working on ah in your field of green chemistry.
01:06:49
Speaker
um I kind of see it this picture of at first you grew up in a more, I guess, business um family household, your parents in business side of the world, and you ventured into science, but now it's coming back in full circle. You're going back to the business side of um on the chemistry.
01:07:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great that's a great point. I haven't really thought about that. but So... I've always had i always had an interest in even when I was doing a PhD, an interest in industrializing technology. yeah like Fundamental research, it is very interesting for like hardcore scientists, but I was always, yeah, how how can these processes make money? How can they actually improve what we do realistically?
01:07:29
Speaker
um And i should have mentioned this, but ah our CEO is actually one of my best friends from Las Vegas who is very business- heavy And I've learned a ton, a ton of business just chatting with him over the last month.
01:07:44
Speaker
He's the lawyer you mentioned before they brought him board. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Yeah, we talked off camera about him, but he's been super helpful. So yeah in terms of building a startup, At this stage especially, the most important thing is building a strong team.
01:07:57
Speaker
Because until you have sales and until you're running in a profitable model, like investors, they're essentially investing in your idea and more importantly, the people too. So um I'm super happy with how that's going so far. But um yeah that's that's one of the – I mentioned we're doing this program at NUS with GRIP.
01:08:15
Speaker
that's like the advice that it really gets, a lot of the program actually is intended for finding team members. yeah Um, yeah and I kind of already had all these ideas when, when I wanted to start. So I'm glad like so far, like,
01:08:29
Speaker
I'm getting every everyone on my team I wanted. Yeah, that's great. I think the people problem is always the most critical for a startup at the beginning stage. For sure A lot of startups fail because of like counter founder conflict. or yeah a lot of times what happens in deep tech is...
01:08:47
Speaker
A scientist can oftentimes be like too married to their idea. Like they come up with this great idea in lab. yeah And this, I've touched on it a few times is how important the market discovery is. yeah And the reason for this is, is that a lot of scientists will create a problem that fits their solution because they want their idea to like really be a,
01:09:08
Speaker
a game, ah yeah you know, a winner. yeah But then you start to talk to people on the streets that actually do the job and it's like, oh, okay, cool technology, but it doesn't actually address, you know, the main market pain points.
01:09:19
Speaker
It's very important to find the issue first and then create a solution to address the issue. And it's super important to be able to like pivot as well, because what is an issue right now might not be an issue five years from now.
01:09:32
Speaker
um And so that's that's why a lot of startups fail. That combined with especially science people can be very like raw on the business side of things.
01:09:42
Speaker
Even me, for example, like someone that's had interest in business and I would say developed my skills in that regard more so more so than most scientists will during their PhD just because my supervisor – um you you know, created my curriculum and like path for me according to my interest in that, which I'm super thankful for.
01:10:03
Speaker
um But having like a, A business person that doesn't just have like the credentials, but also like the interest in the project and the relationship with the team is incredibly important. And I hear a lot of startups struggling because they don't have that guy.
01:10:17
Speaker
So I feel ah very thankful and and lucky to have um a great friend and more importantly, like a damn good business person. Yeah. that yeah But the the mark the mark the analogy I made with like the...
01:10:32
Speaker
creating a problem to meet their solution, like that happens quite often. And that's why you ah you literally need to like have boots on the ground, like be talking to people that actually do this stuff, like go visit these places, talk to these people like in person if you can.
01:10:45
Speaker
right All that's like super important. yeah And I think the investors will also love to see that um the leadership of the startup come from someone who have both the scientific background, also the business sense, um like what do you kind of acquired throughout your PhD journey and now.
01:11:02
Speaker
So um perhaps now I pose to you the final question. um Maybe I have some sense of what you will say already. It's... um If you look you know forward to the rest of your career as a scientist or a business person from where we sit today, um where do you see yourself in five or 10 years? Do you think you'll go back to fundamental research?
01:11:26
Speaker
Do you think you'll teach at the university? Or do you think just keep going on this business path on this niche field of and within green chemistry?
01:11:38
Speaker
ah Yeah, i'm I'm fully committed to developing this startup. I think you have to be yeah um in order for it to be successful. I know our team is as well. um So I absolutely see myself in terms of the timeline. So ah the short answer is I absolutely see myself like remaining a co-founder yeah um for this company.
01:11:56
Speaker
um Our goal is by next year, like I said, to have strategic partnerships and things like that. We haven't mapped out the timeline. I would love to tell you what our goals for the company are within four to five years, because I think that would...
01:12:07
Speaker
Add some more specifics to my answer. We're not there yet. I can tell you by this time next year, we want to have strategic like a strategic partner in place where. We're showing up to this enormous chemical plant and we're testing this thing on the large scale.
01:12:20
Speaker
And ideally the strategic partner will be somebody that buys our material from us as well. um Those are some of the best strategic partners. um you know In terms of what we need investment wise and additional co-founder wise and capital wise, that will all depend kind of as we go through the process.
01:12:36
Speaker
um As I kind of alluded to earlier, like we know With almost, I guess you could say like 90% certainty because 90% of startups pivot from what their intention initial idea is into something different.
01:12:50
Speaker
So I can say almost with like complete certainty, like what our idea now will be completely different from a year from now. in terms of like after we've done this customer discovery and we've gotten into the lab and see how things work on the large scale and explore other conversion technologies, like it's almost certainly going to change our pathway. So I think it would be disingenuous for me to tell you like specifically what I think the company will be doing in five years because that would, I guess, communicate an unwillingness to pivot.
01:13:18
Speaker
yeah And I do like I am remaining incredibly flexible, but like, Yeah, of course, I think if our company is still moving and moving nicely by then, like I think that would a great sign.
01:13:32
Speaker
And I'll bring you back on the show for the a series two of the startup journey. Yeah, I would love to say tune ah maybe chat again in a year or so. like Once we've gone through this program and we've done this customer discovery and things like that, because yeah a lot of this stuff is going to be completely new to me.
01:13:47
Speaker
Yeah. um you mentioned like as a scientist or a businessman do feel myself going more towards like the business side of things yeah um which ah was kind of always my my hope as well like i wanted to use my science to like as like a vehicle to get me to like where i wanted to go um and i feel like my this kind of hybrid interest I have between business and science, like very much suits my role well.
01:14:13
Speaker
um And I'm not like over leveraged in one way or another where I'm expected to be this hardcore scientist or this hardcore like Wall Street guy. I can kind of just leverage off of the two people in our team that are are that and, you know, ensure communication, ensure day by day operations and efficiency and things like that are all things that,
01:14:33
Speaker
I've shown to be more effective than than you know just grinding in the lab for 80 plus hours a week. So um yeah yeah, I think ideally in in the next five years, like ill we'll have a company started and our team will be growing. We'll have employees. We'll have customers.
01:14:50
Speaker
We'll be in a couple of, not just customers in Singapore, but all throughout Southeast Asia. We want to have like some other co-founders. We want to bring in executive board members. Yeah. um All these, all these things. Yeah.
01:15:03
Speaker
Cool. um As a friend, I very much look forward to that. um But with that note, I think we'll wrap up our conversation today. um So a sincere thank you for Dr. Max to come on the show. Of course, man. Thank you again for having me. I really had a lot of fun.