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#12 Bitcoin Mining and profitability with Dan Rosen from Luxor | POT: The Cryptocurrency Podcast
98 Plays2 years ago
Daniel Rosen started Bitcoin mining while keeping a garage gym warm during the cold winter months. By setting up a single ASIC miner, Daniel not only managed to maintain a cozy temperature of 55 degrees Fahrenheit but also turned a neat profit every month. There are just so many untapped use cases to be explored when it comes to Bitcoin mining and it's exciting to see people using ASICS to warm up garages, greenhouses and other buildings.
Not only is it sustainable, but can be profitable too.
Bhutan's Secret Crypto Operation
While personal stories of innovative mining solutions capture our imagination, entire nations are making strategic moves into the mining scene. Bhutan, a small Himalayan kingdom known for measuring Gross National Happiness, has been quietly mining Bitcoin since 2019.
This move isn't just about adding to the national coffers; it's a strategic decision to leverage Bhutan's renewable energy resources, demonstrating how countries can adopt crypto mining within their economic and environmental frameworks.
Luxor and Bitcoin Mining
Luxor are Bitcoin and Asic mining specialists that offer a suite of specialized services, including a mining pool that is responsible for about 3.5% of all mining hashing power.
Luxor's approach includes a focus on derivatives and financial products tailored for the crypto mining sector with the purpose of enabling miners to hedge their risk. For instance miners are able to lock in a certain hashrate and get paid 6 months in advance for that compute.
Luxor operates as an AMM or automated market-maker allowing users to buy and sell hash rate.
The case for Bitcoin Ordinals
When ordinals came out, I called them a fad, and a nuisance on the Bitcoin blokchain. I mean, with 7TPS why would you want to add more strain on this system?
Daniel managed to change my mind on it.
As Block rewards decrease with every Bitcoin halving, transaction rewards become more important for rewarding miners for their work. On a 6.25 BTC block reward, the current transaction fee reward sits at an average of 0.3-0.4 BTC/ block. Post April, this will account for about 10% of the total reward.
During the ordinals boom, we saw this increase by 10x temporarily making up nearly half of the block reward. Miners being incentivized to secure the network is a good thing, so ordinals are a good thing too.
This podcast is fueled by Aesir, an Algorithmic cryptocurrency Trading Platform that I helped develop over the last 2 years that offers a unique set of features.
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Transcript
Introduction and Importance of Transaction Fees
00:00:00
Speaker
Ordinals generally are pretty positive for the Bitcoin network. Ultimately, what miners are trying to do, or obviously yes, they're trying to make money, but ultimately miners are incentivized to secure the network. And that's exactly what these transaction fees are doing. And as the block subsidy continues to decrease over time, currently six and a quarter, then post halving in April, it'll be 3.125, and then the next halving close to one and a half.
00:00:28
Speaker
As that block subsidy continues to decrease, these transaction fees need to take over a larger percentage of that block reward in order to incentivize miners to continue to mine and to continue to secure the network.
00:00:51
Speaker
What's up, everyone? Welcome to Proof of Talk. I'm your host, Andrew. Ordinals generally are pretty positive for the Bitcoin network. Ultimately, what miners are trying to do or obviously, yes, they're trying to make money, but ultimately, miners are incentivized to secure the network.
00:01:06
Speaker
And that's exactly what these transaction fees are doing. And as the block subsidy continues to decrease over time, currently six and a quarter, then post halving in April, it'll be 3.125 and then the next halving close to one and a half. As that block subsidy continues to decrease, these transaction fees need to take over a larger percentage of that block reward in order to incentivize miners to continue to mine and to continue to secure the
Guest's Background and Entry into Crypto
00:01:35
Speaker
network.
00:01:35
Speaker
with Bitcoin and all that stuff. So maybe we'll just start there if that's okay with you. Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, so my background is actually in options trading and market making. So I did that for about 11 years total, eight years I worked for a company in Chicago, and then three years I started my own trading operation and just me and a developer trading market making options. So
00:02:00
Speaker
That was a lot of fun. And then COVID hit in 2020 and ended up moving from Chicago to Denver, kind of closed up my trading operation and happened to find crypto in the summer of 2020. So it was kind of DeFi summer 2020.
00:02:16
Speaker
So I'm officially, I guess, class of 2020, crypto-wise. And yeah, that was really what sucked me in, was kind of all of these DEXs and things that DeFi protocols were doing and using, and then started doing a deep dive into Bitcoin and Ethereum primarily in 2020 and kind of decided to shift my fire over to crypto. So that's kind of where I got started.
00:02:41
Speaker
Once I was in crypto, the natural position was options market making on crypto. So I was market making options at Deribit, which is one of the largest options exchanges for crypto, Bitcoin and ETH options there.
00:02:58
Speaker
And, uh, yeah, I did that for a while and then ended up at Luxor in, uh, early, well, I guess second quarter of 2023 last year. So, um, yeah, I've been here at Luxor for eight, maybe nine months so far and, and, uh, loving kind of all the different tools and services that Luxor has to offer specifically where I'm working is the derivatives part.
00:03:20
Speaker
Right. Yeah, because of your experience with options and derivatives. Yeah. That just makes like a for a smooth transition. Also, what turn 21 2020 was such a wild time to be joining crypto. That is like baptism by fire. It is absolutely insane. I still have like flashbacks from that time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of, you know, just experimenting with everything, kind of figuring it out on my own with a buddy of mine as well. And we're kind of having
00:03:46
Speaker
late night conversations about how does a DEX work? How do I even get tokens from the DEX? How do I swap tokens? And literally just figuring it out all for the first time. Phil's like totally amateur and novice at this point in time, but getting involved with the original algorithmic stablecoins, basis cash, and some of the other ones. So it was a super interesting time, 2020.
00:04:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah. 100%
Bitcoin Mining: Personal Experiences and Innovations
00:04:13
Speaker
it was. Yeah. Was that also when you went into mining yourself? You may mention you're doing some mining at home. Yeah. Yeah. Good question. So I actually didn't get involved in mining until last year. So yeah. So I'm fairly new to the mining world, I guess, if you will. But obviously kind of had done all that research back in 2020 as to Bitcoin mining, the network and how the network is secured by mining.
00:04:41
Speaker
how everything works but yeah I got involved so last summer once I had been at Luxor for a little bit I kind of presented a kind of situation I had with a co-worker and I was talking to him saying hey my garage in the winter gets really cold we have we have like a little gym set up in our garage my wife and I
00:05:05
Speaker
And we were like, OK, so it gets really cold in the winter. Like I've heard of people using Bitcoin miners to heat spaces or to generate heat for their homes or whatever else. Sanas for maybe not Sanas, but greenhouses in particular. I was like, if I did that at home in my garage, would that work? Like would I? How many ASICs would I need? How many miners? How like how warm would it keep my garage?
00:05:32
Speaker
And my coworker was like, Hey, you know, you just need one ASIC in your garage and it'll keep it warm for the entire winter.
Economic and Environmental Factors in Mining
00:05:40
Speaker
And so that's exactly what I did. I've got one ASIC in my garage. It's keeping my garage right around 55 degrees Fahrenheit all winter long and.
00:05:51
Speaker
I have low enough power or electricity costs that I'm actually making somewhere around 50 bucks per month by running this ASIC in the winter and generating heat as the side effects for my gym. That's crazy. Pretty cool.
00:06:09
Speaker
I didn't expect that was like the reason for getting into mining. That's really cool because you hear about that. Then you kind of, there's like an insider kind of joke in the mining community, like get a miner to heat yourself up. I didn't realize it actually works. Yeah, exactly. So kind of where the revenue currently is for Bitcoin mining. So I'm running what's called an S19 JPRO, which is a specific model of a
00:06:35
Speaker
Yeah. And so. Bitmain and miner. Yeah, exactly. Yep. It's one of the Bitmain and miners versions or models. And so, yeah, I'm kind of bringing in like I think right around 150 bucks of Bitcoin per month that I'm running it.
00:06:51
Speaker
And I'm paying about 100 bucks of electricity for my electricity bill. So that's pretty cool. That's really cool. Has it always been profitable? Because I know there was maybe a time, I want to say maybe last year, maybe a bit beforehand where there was this entire discussion that Bitcoin miners are actually just still running their miners at a loss because they love the network and they believe in the network itself rather than for profit. And I think that's kind of been a discussion for a while, right?
00:07:20
Speaker
Totally and there's two main components here one is what is your electricity cost as a minor yeah and then what is the efficiency of your machine. So right if the efficiency of machines are essentially calculated by joules per tera hash so how much electricity do i have to put into the machine to get one tera hash output of hash rate.
00:07:41
Speaker
And so if you have, you can have high electricity costs, but very efficient machines like the new S21s, for example, and you can be profitable mining or vice versa. You can have very low electricity costs and have very old inefficient ASICs and you can still be profitable. So you need at least probably one side of that equation to be good or efficient in order to be profitable as a miner.
00:08:06
Speaker
Right. And are you expected to remain profitable for a long period of time? Because as difficulty increases, then it kind of forces you to get another minor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good question. So the halving's coming. We're estimating right around April 20th or 21st.
00:08:23
Speaker
So literally the block subsidy will be halved. So we're going from the block subsidy of 6.25 Bitcoin per block to 3.125 Bitcoin per block. So that is going to change the profitability significantly for a lot of miners.
00:08:39
Speaker
So whereas right now a lot of miners will be or have these very fat margins where like their electricity costs is like 50% of what their revenue is. So they have kind of that 100% gross margin. That's going to be, you know, the revenue side of the equation is going to be right around 60% of what it is now.
00:09:01
Speaker
So if they were making, let's say, 100 bucks a day, now they're going to be making 60 bucks per day in revenue. So at the current price of Bitcoin. Yeah. We're assuming kind of Bitcoin price stays here. Obviously, if Bitcoin price increases, then that revenue will increase too.
00:09:17
Speaker
Right, right. And do you think there's any kind of setup that one could have using for more renewable or self-sustaining electricity? I know Tesla roofs are supposed to be really good at providing enough electricity to kind of have a surplus in the summer and then kind of keep you on the threshold during winter time. Would the setup like that kind of be able to support a couple of miners if someone wanted to?
00:09:45
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know too much, but I would imagine so. And I think Bitcoin mining in general does seek those, well, just in general, seeks the lowest cost of electricity. And so wherever the lowest cost of electricity, you'll find Bitcoin miners. So yes, you may find it at stranded gas wells in Texas or in Nebraska or somewhere else.
00:10:08
Speaker
But you may also find it, or you do find it, at hydroelectric plants. So one of the more popular ones in the last year to two years is in Paris, massive hydroelectric dam. And the cost of electricity, because they are producing more electricity than the country can consume,
00:10:29
Speaker
there's this excess capacity. And so Bitcoin miners have been able to kind of locate pretty close to the dam and consume some of that electricity at very, very low cost, which is like in the one to two cent per kilowatt hour range, which is crazy, crazy low, considering, you know, I don't know, my at home, I pay somewhere between seven cents per kilowatt hour and 16 cents per kilowatt hour. Right. So if they're paying one to two cents, that's it's crazy, crazy cheap.
00:10:59
Speaker
Oh yeah. 100%. You know what blew my mind recently? What I read about, I had no idea. Do you know that Bhutan has been kind of secretly mining Bitcoin since 2019? Yep. Yep. It's been a pretty well kept secret. Yeah.
00:11:14
Speaker
And so I think you'll start to see more and more of these countries get involved. And maybe some of them have been involved that aren't kind of released publicly yet. But obviously kind of the big one in the news over the last couple of years is El Salvador, too.
00:11:31
Speaker
Right. And so they're using geothermal power to power their Bitcoin mines to mine. Obviously, they have adopted Bitcoin as a currency as well. So kind of it all ties together. But that's one really cool one where El Salvador is using that geothermal renewable electricity to power Bitcoin mining.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's one of the only places where I've seen approval rates for a president being over 90%. Yeah, apart from Russia, but that's a different story. But it's crazy. Yes, those are two different places for sure. Yeah, it's pretty impressive what they've been able to do over the last several years, since I guess, Bukele has been in office. So
00:12:15
Speaker
Yeah, and it looks like so long as he's going to be there, the country is just moving in the same direction, which is great to see. I, for one, hope that more countries kind of go and adopt this idea, making Bitcoin legal tender, integrating up and coming and emerging technology into the current system or making way for
00:12:35
Speaker
new technologies to exist and thrive rather than finding different ways to suppress
Regulatory Challenges in Crypto
00:12:40
Speaker
that technology. It just happens a lot. I don't know a lot about the US. I can tell you from our perspective in the UK that there's kind of every crypto regulation that comes out is restrictive. It's not meant to help the ecosystem grow. It's meant to stifle its growth in one way or another. For instance, and this one was a really weird one, you cannot access
00:13:04
Speaker
Binance's knowledge base in the UK. Really? Wow. You can go and trade. You can go and buy shitcoins if you really want. You can go create an account, buy shitcoins, not knowing anything about it. You cannot access the knowledge base. They're not going to let you unless you use a VPN. Wow. That's wild. That's absolutely wild. It's like burning books in the 21st century. It's nuts. It really is. I mean, yes, in this internet age, it's wild that
00:13:28
Speaker
knowledge is kind of banned. That's insane. But I had no idea that that was the case.
00:13:35
Speaker
No, yeah, I found out recently and I was like, what the hell? Like, what are you trying to do? You're trying to misinform, trying to stop people from informing themselves by not allowing them to read that information at all. So, you know, what do I have available? Then if I don't have the capacity to get a VPN or whatever, like, I'm just going to go and buy some shit coins on the market because people are saying, oh, this is the best chance of, you know, being profitable or whatever.
00:13:59
Speaker
Yeah. You know, obviously people don't do that, but it could happen and it's ridiculous that that's the solution, you know. I think the saying kind of goes, you know, first they ignore you, then they fight you and then you win. So we're definitely there. You're starting to see, like you said, in the UK and the US as well.
00:14:17
Speaker
kind of more onerous regulations being passed. I think just yesterday or two days ago, the administration came out and said that they want to kind of require Bitcoin miners to disclose the locations of all their Bitcoin mines, how much electricity they're consuming, because they feel that Bitcoin miners are consuming electricity to a point to where
00:14:41
Speaker
where where they're taking away from the potential electricity that the citizens can use in their homes or businesses and whatnot. So I don't know. My opinion might take on all of this is that from a Bitcoin mining perspective, that Bitcoin mining doesn't even use enough electricity.
00:14:59
Speaker
and that it should use more. It's such a great variable load for the grid in so many places, meaning a Bitcoin mine can shut off instantly and stop consuming that power in order to sell it back or give it back to the grid so that other consumers of that electricity can use it. So when it's really cold or when it's really hot and you've got
00:15:19
Speaker
either heat being generated or air conditioning being generated, then those Bitcoin mines can turn off in those situations and allow the rest of the grid to consume that electricity when needed.
00:15:32
Speaker
Right, exactly. And if you have a surplus of electricity, then you can always, you could sell it, or you could just mine it. And it's more like, yeah, you could sell it for devaluing currency, or you could mine it and then store a currency that will inevitably gain value in time, right? Yeah. And there's so many projects, if you look in Africa, for example, where
00:15:53
Speaker
electricity, access to electricity is not necessarily as widespread as it is in the US or the UK, where there's no incentive to build kind of new power generation because there aren't enough consumers and it's not profitable enough to do so. And so what Bitcoin mining allows is that new power generation to get up and running. They have a source, somebody that will buy that power from them at a very low cost.
00:16:18
Speaker
And then they can continue building out that power generation and selling to communities and use the Bitcoin mine can use less and less electricity over time as they're able to find kind of I guess product market fit or someone to actually consume that electricity other than Bitcoin miners. So.
00:16:34
Speaker
It's a pretty cool, you know, there's so many kind of innovative ways that Bitcoin mining is being used these days. Like we mentioned earlier, greenhouse, you know, heating a greenhouse, for example, for growing in a colder climate or heating somebody's gym or heating their home with the heat generated. It's really cool. All the different ways it's being creatively used.
00:16:56
Speaker
Oh, yeah, 100%. And I want to keep seeing more and more innovations into how people make use of Bitcoin mining in a sustainable way. So at Luxer, do you guys offer mining solutions mainly for B2B or B2C or both? Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say it's almost entirely B2B. We do do some B2C, but I'd say it's mostly B2B. So we have kind of six different business lines at Luxer.
00:17:24
Speaker
So the main one that we're known for is our mining
Technical Aspects of Mining Operations
00:17:27
Speaker
pool. So we have, um, right around, uh, just short of 20 exit hash of hash rate on Luxor pool. So that's right around three and a half, 3.6% of the network hash rate on Luxor pool. Nice. Extra hash. So walk me through that. So you've got mega hash. So, so kind of the hash terror hash, not the terror hash is like, so you've got a typical ASIC miner these days is right around a hundred to 110 Tara hash.
00:17:54
Speaker
Right. And the next step up is petahash. So one petahash is a thousand terahash. So roughly ten ASICS is like, sorry, yeah, ten ASICS is one petahash. Right around there. And then the next step up from petahash is exahash. And an exahash is one thousand petahash. So an exahash is roughly ten thousand Bitcoin miners. Right.
00:18:22
Speaker
Right. So yeah. So yeah. So we've got right around 20 exit hash on the pool. The total network hash rate is right around 5, 40, 5, 50 exit hash. So yeah. So we've got somewhere around three and a half percent of the network hash rate on the pool. So that's kind of really cool.
00:18:42
Speaker
So that's kind of the primary business line. One of the other large business lines is ASIC trading. So it's a brokerage desk for ASICs. So if you're looking to buy or sell ASICs, we can facilitate that through our ASIC brokerage desk. Both new and used machines.
00:19:02
Speaker
We also have a firmware business line. So firmware is essentially software put on those ASICs that allows you to optimize those ASICs. Meaning you kind of, let's say a typical rig from Bitmain, one of the Antminers comes with stock firmware. So you can maybe do a few small variations of what's called overclocking or underclocking. Meaning you generate more hash rate or generate less hash rate, which are both
00:19:32
Speaker
potentially desirable based on the situation. So if your potential revenue, let's say Bitcoin price is really high and you might want to overclock and generate more hashrate to get paid more while Bitcoin price is really high. Or if it's really hot in the summer in Texas, for example, you may want to underclock your machine.
00:19:52
Speaker
and get more efficiency from the machine because as machines get warmer they become less efficient and so you might want to lower the temperature of that machine under clock so generate less hashrate and become more efficient in terms of how much electricity is going out and how much hashrate is coming out.
00:20:10
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Are they comparable at all to a regular computer rig? I know it's got like the ASIC miner. It has some kind of, I want to say it's not a GPU, but it's derived from a GPU, but it's got different transistor pathways, I guess. Yeah. This is not my area of expertise, but so ASIC is... Yeah, there is no mining. I think it's an application specific integrated circuit is what ASIC stands for.
00:20:39
Speaker
So it does that one job very, very well, which is hashing. And so most of these machines have two or three, I think usually three hashboards in them. And so they're essentially optimized to hash. They look like a desktop computer is about the same size that they look like. Maybe, I don't know, a foot.
00:21:06
Speaker
Basically like a square box, about a foot by a foot. So yeah, and they're actually really, really heavy too. I think they weigh like 40, 45 pounds, so maybe like 20 kilos. So they're super heavy machines. Yeah, the first time I picked one up, I was shocked at how heavy it was.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, I did. I didn't realize that. I knew they were kind of big in size. I didn't realize they were quite so heavy. So could you guys also offer a way, like, if I want to mine, can I rent your miner remotely to do that instead of me buying my miner and connecting to your pool? We do not offer that.
00:21:47
Speaker
offer that service actually. There are companies that offer that service, so it's kind of called either leasing or buy and host. So yeah, you could kind of lease that ASIC from somebody else and they provide you kind of that service to operate, to handle any potential repairs if the miner goes down or whatnot. So yeah, Luxor doesn't do that specifically, but we can definitely refer you to other people that do.
00:22:15
Speaker
Fair enough. And do they actually need a lot of repairs miners. Yeah, so so it's a good question. Yes, I wouldn't say they need a lot of repairs, but they occasionally do need writers and the more.
00:22:30
Speaker
The more you kind of overclock these machines and the more hash rate that you're trying to get out of them. So for example, let's say, and I can't remember the exact number, but an S 19 J pro, like I mentioned earlier, stock Bitmain, Antminer, it's somewhere around a hundred, let's say call it a hundred terahash machine. You may be able to overclock that to 120 terahash.
00:22:53
Speaker
Meaning you're getting 20% more hash rate out of it. But there is more risk that you may blow a hashboard in doing so. Especially if you try to overclock it to 125, 130, or 140 tera hash. So that's kind of the situations where they may need repairs. Control board repairs are also very common as well. That's kind of the control board for the entire ASIC.
00:23:18
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So could, you know, like do whatever you do on a computer, just slap another couple of coolers on it and make it go cool. So it's kind of, yeah, it's got, uh, it's got two, I think two intake fans and two, uh, output fans too. So you kind of got air running through the entire machine at the whole time to cool down the chips or the boards.
00:23:41
Speaker
Right, yeah, because I'm presuming is you were saying that you're using that to heat up your gym in the winter so they're presumably running a lot hotter than just a regular. Yeah, exactly. So I think the, the hashboards run at right around, and this is kind of through normal operation right around 50 degrees Celsius is kind of the temperature they run at.
00:24:00
Speaker
That's not too crazy, but that's also in my pretty cold garage gym. They may be if you overclock and you're in a warmer temperature, they probably run a little bit warmer than that. I think you don't want to push them past, I might be wrong on this, 70 degrees Celsius is kind of a pretty hot temperature.
00:24:23
Speaker
That's still within in computing. That's not super crazy. Gaming laptops go to about 94, 95 degrees Celsius when you're really pushing them to the limits. I was expecting a lot higher. That's reasonable. Yeah, exactly. I'm guessing it's the consistency and the sheer size of the thing that just emanates heat continuously. That's what makes it. Yeah, and these ASICs at least have been around for, I want to say, eight years.
00:24:50
Speaker
or so, 2016. Prior to that, like you mentioned, it was GPUs before that, that people were mining Bitcoin with. And so they've had eight, nine years to kind of refine how good these hashboards and these ASICs are. So the S9s, which were some of the oldest ASICs, were way less efficient and I'm sure ran even hotter than the modern ASICs do.
00:25:18
Speaker
Right. That makes sense. Speaking of GPUs, I never really, I never really got into mining itself, but I was looking into it a few years ago when I was trying to like have all these spreadsheets, different Excel files, we're trying to figure out profitability and electricity prices across different countries. And obviously then eventually I was like, okay, Iceland, Iceland is the place. So I was looking, I was comparing Bitcoin and Ethereum, and I know I was doing some research for Ethereum mining back
00:25:46
Speaker
when Ethereum was still proof of work. They haven't had moves to proof of stake. I don't think there were even discussions to move to proof of stake at that time. But there weren't any, there were almost no solutions on the market in terms of Bitcoin, sorry, Ethereum miners. The vast majority were just saying, well, get a GPU. I think there was just one company, one really small US, I want to say, based company that did some Ethereum miners.
00:26:15
Speaker
I wonder why more chains don't have their own dedicated kind of mining solution. There definitely are other ones. We operate a smaller relative to the Bitcoin pool, kind of a Doge Litecoin kind of switching pool as well. And then I think a Sia coin pool as well. So we do have these all like while the Bitcoin pool is by far and away the largest pool that we operate, we do operate some of these other smaller altcoin pools too.
00:26:42
Speaker
Okay. And have you chosen Dogecoin and Litecoin because technically both of them are kind of offshoots of Bitcoin, right? Yeah. Because Litecoin is a fork of Bitcoin and Dogecoin is a fork of Litecoin or something like that. Yeah. So I think mostly because the hashing algorithm is the same, I believe, for both networks. So you're able to, at least we built a pool where you're able to switch between them, depending on which one is more profitable to mine at any point in time.
00:27:12
Speaker
Right. That makes sense. That's cool. Let's talk a little bit about, uh, mining pools and your guys own a take on, on mining pools. Um, so I've been a bit disconnected from mining for a while. So if you can let me know what the kind of the latest metrics for mining pools are, what you guys offer, uh, and kind of how it's all structured, that'd be, that'd be super interesting.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah, so I guess probably a good starting point is talking about how mining pools pay out their miners. So kind of the Bitcoin mining industry has gone through a couple of iterations of what people think the best methodology is for paying out miners. So at the end of the day, the mining pool is paying miners for their hash rate. And they're paying them at a slight discount to the actual value of that hash rate.
00:28:02
Speaker
And it's because the mining pool is paying or taking on what's called luck risk, the risk of finding a block. So whereas if you are mining as an individual directly to the network, you know, let's say you have 10 ASICs running, you're not going to find a block for most likely a very long time. You might find a block, but you'd get very, very lucky if you were able to find a block with 10 ASICs.
00:28:29
Speaker
And so what a mining pool essentially does is aggregates all this hash rate from all these different miners together and pays them for that hash rate. And then the mining pool takes the risk of finding a block or finding several blocks. So for example, Luxor has 20 eggs hash of hash rate, right around three and a half percent of the network. So we expect to find over a longer period of time, three and a half percent of all blocks found on the network. Right.
00:28:58
Speaker
or blocks mined. So I think that comes out to, so there's roughly 144 blocks per day. So that comes out to right around five blocks per day that Luxor would expect to find. Some days we find three, which we may get a little bit unlucky by finding three. Some days we find seven blocks. So it totally depends from day to day. And that's the risk that the mining pool is taking on behalf of paying the miners for their hash rate.
00:29:27
Speaker
And so I think the most common payout method these days is what's called FPPS or full pay per share. So the, uh, the mining pool. And so I believe it's, uh, Luxor, um, some of the other big ones like foundry. Um, and I can't remember specifically which ones I'm not, this is not my, my strong suit, but, um, all pay, I think it's something like 60 to 70% of the network pays FPPS full pay per share.
00:29:54
Speaker
And so what that is, is they're paying the expected value of the block subsidy, which is currently that six and a quarter Bitcoin per block. Plus we pay on a 144 block rolling average of transaction fees. So the block reward is made up of the block subsidy, that six and a quarter plus transaction fees.
00:30:16
Speaker
And right now, those transaction fees make up right around 0.35 Bitcoin per block. So they're making up somewhere around 6% to 8% of the total block reward transaction. So that's like 6.6. Right around 6.6 has been the average for the last week or so.
00:30:34
Speaker
Interestingly enough, you get these times, like we mentioned, of congestion on the network. For example, when Ordinals first became a thing really publicly in May of 2023 of last year, you saw these huge transaction fee spikes for a short period of time, where the total block reward instead of being 6.6 was something like 12, 13, 14 Bitcoin total per day.
00:31:02
Speaker
Yeah. And then we actually saw that more sustained at the end of November and through I think the first half of December of 2024. So just a couple of months ago. And so you were seeing kind of much more consistent 8 9 10 Bitcoin block rewards over a several week period of time.
00:31:22
Speaker
Right. So they have had some sort of impact over the network, the ordinals, I mean. Oh, yeah, 100%, for sure. And so, you know, I guess my take on it is that ordinals generally are pretty positive for the Bitcoin network. Ultimately, what miners are trying to do, or obviously, yes, they're trying to make money, but ultimately, miners are incentivized to secure the network.
00:31:46
Speaker
And that's exactly what these transaction fees are doing. And as the block subsidy continues to decrease over time, currently six and a quarter, then post halving in April, it'll be 3.125 and then the next halving close to one and a half. As that block subsidy continues to decrease, these transaction fees need to take over a larger percentage of that block reward in order to incentivize miners to continue to mine and to continue to secure the network.
00:32:17
Speaker
Yes, Bitcoin price will also have a role to play in that. If Bitcoin price continues to increase in value, then miners will continue to be profitable. But this is all very much like a game theory and kind of an incentive game for miners. So what are miners incentivized to do? They're incentivized to make money and they will only continue to run miners if they're able to make money.
00:32:40
Speaker
Right, no, of course, it makes perfect sense. But then you'd have you'd have you need to rely without something like ordinals, you need to rely on the price of Bitcoin doubling every four years or so, which if you think about it, it's it's it's an exponential scale, right? You've got 40 times to 80 times to 160 times to 320. Like how for how many times can it actually double, right?
00:33:04
Speaker
So from that perspective, it makes sense. I totally get why ordinals make miners happy. I guess at which point do ordinals make up for disproportionate transaction fees? Yeah, totally. Yeah, I don't know. We'll find out pretty soon post-having.
00:33:29
Speaker
That's by definition, post-having, if right now transaction fees make up 6% to 8% of the block reward, post-having, they're going to make up 12% to 16% of the block reward if they stay the same at the same level. They'll be essentially double. And so, yeah, I think that has to happen over the longer term. And like you mentioned, if as Bitcoin price increases, then you'll see more people
00:33:56
Speaker
using Bitcoin. I think it's kind of like a feedback loop, right? So as price increases, more people are interested in Bitcoin and using Bitcoin. And so you get more congestion or more use cases on the network. So I think those play into each other a little bit. Bitcoin price up means also, in general, in my opinion, transaction fees up over the longer term.
00:34:19
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I was actually just in discussion with someone from Rootstock.
Future of Bitcoin and Miner Rewards
00:34:26
Speaker
I'm not sure if you've heard of the... Yep. I've heard of that. Yep. So their idea is that they're looking to add different features, including scalability to Bitcoin.
00:34:35
Speaker
similar to side chains, right? When you'd be basically rolling up transactions and then sending the bulk to the Bitcoin back to the Bitcoin network. And then the Bitcoin network verifies one transaction, one bulk transaction instead of 50 individual ones. Does that have an impact over the network, over the miners' rewards? Would the miners now no longer earn those rewards for those 50 rolled up transactions? How does that work?
00:35:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, good question. I guess it's a lot like kind of ETH L2s, right? Right, and L2s like Arbitrum, Optimism, Polygon, et cetera that are, you know, taking or reducing fees for transactions and then roll them up or I guess bundle them and then use them as one transaction on the main chain.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think those will become more and more popular as the cost to execute a transaction or to get a transaction done through the Bitcoin blockchain becomes more and more expensive. Right now, it may cost, I don't know, the exact number, $3, $5, $6 to send Bitcoin on the network.
00:35:49
Speaker
During those ordinal spikes in May and December, it could have cost $30, $40, $50 to send a transaction, very much like it did on Ethereum back when, say, DeFi summer and then in 2021 when the gas fees were absolutely insane. I think that demand for those L2s will continue to grow on the Bitcoin network as more and more demand comes for transactions on the Bitcoin network, without a doubt.
00:36:19
Speaker
But yes, I guess to answer your question at the end of the day, is that bad for miners? No, because I think at the end of the day, transaction fees will be high enough for a sustained period of time before those L2s really start really gaining traction.
00:36:34
Speaker
or a much larger amount of traction on the network. Right. Yeah. And when they do get traction, they get traction out of a need for the network to process more transactions, which is at the threshold of what the miners can currently process, I'm guessing. I mean, yeah, I find all this stuff really interesting because it's all very kind of game theory-esque, right? Oh, yeah.
00:36:53
Speaker
What are the incentives for every party involved in securing the network or participating, transacting on the network? And so all of those play together and it's pretty incredible how this was conceived of 16 years ago and still it's playing out very well still to this day.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, you put it very well with game-like mechanics because even the act of figuring out where you want to get into mining as an individual, it makes you think about so many things. Okay, so I'm thinking about the price of electricity and I'm thinking about the Bitcoin difficulty, which you look at a chart, it's going up.
00:37:35
Speaker
But then I'm also taking into account the price of Bitcoin. So it's, it's very, you know, volatile, in a way, trying to figuring it all out. It's like an equation that you need to solve to see if that makes sense or not. It's cool. It's really cool. And I think one of the coolest parts of it is that is this post having situation for miners. Right. From a game theory perspective. And, you know, like I mentioned earlier,
00:38:01
Speaker
after the halving miners will become less much less profitable than they are right now.
00:38:06
Speaker
because the block subsidy is literally halved. And so it will be a question of miners and how profitable they are. Some miners will definitely become unprofitable after the halving. And so it probably doesn't make sense to continue running your mining operation for an extended period of time if, let's say, the cost of mining a Bitcoin is, let's say, $50,000 and Bitcoin price is $40,000.
00:38:34
Speaker
It doesn't make sense. It probably makes more sense to just go purchase Bitcoin if that's what you want on a spot exchange somewhere. So you'll definitely see some hash rate come offline. So kind of my base case expectation is somewhere around between 10 and 20 percent of hash rate coming offline. So right now we're at call it 550 exit hash on the network. I would expect we're below 500 exit hash after the half, maybe like May or June post having.
00:39:04
Speaker
Right. Historically, there's just a temporary drop off. Do you think miners are selling at the top and then going back into mining? Yeah. As those miners drop off or stop hashing, then it becomes more profitable for the other miners to hash. The difficulty as those miners drop off the network
00:39:31
Speaker
goes down. And so it becomes more profitable for the other remaining miners to continue to mine. And so it's kind of like a waiting game between miners. Let's say you're kind of break even, you're kind of waiting for all these other miners to drop off and then you can finally become profitable.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, but at the end of the day, like I mentioned earlier, it's really a game of either you have access to cheap electricity or you have cheap electricity or you have very kind of efficient fleets for Bitcoin mining. And so you need one of those in order to continue to be competitive and to continue to mine post halving. Otherwise, you're probably going to be unplugging your ASICs pretty soon after the halving.
00:40:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think we might disconnect again in seven seconds. I'm just waiting to see if that happens before I ask you the question. So what's your advice for people wanting to get into Bitcoin mining? Do it. No, I'm kidding.
00:40:33
Speaker
I'd say it all goes back to, so yes, I think you were spot on with kind of what you were mentioning of kind of going through all of the different scenarios. You know, how profitable would I be in all these different situations? If Bitcoin price goes down to $30,000, am I still profitable?
00:40:51
Speaker
And that you should be profitable if Bitcoin price goes down to 30,000. Otherwise, you probably shouldn't be mining. So you need to be able to handle kind of these unforeseen circumstances, like Bitcoin price going down, like in 2023.
00:41:07
Speaker
Network hash rate going from two hundred and fifty eggs a hash to five hundred eggs a hash so it doubled in the span of one year so you need to be able to kind of like withstand all these adverse situations in order to get into mining and once again that comes back to do i have access to cheap electricity and is my fleet fairly efficient you need one of those.
00:41:29
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And then it's choosing a mining pool. Yeah, exactly. There's there's a lot of other steps, you know, it's it is building out the physical infrastructure, or if you're sending your machines to a facility to be co located or hosted there.
00:41:44
Speaker
dealing with those contracts and whatnot. There are a lot of steps and I guess potential pitfalls in Bitcoin mining, but there are a lot of people that have been doing this for a long time and have been able to not master it, but become very good at it.
00:42:00
Speaker
Right. And what are we looking at in terms of a starting budget? If you want to get into Bitcoin mining and have some not crazy amount of money, but make some money on the side, what's the starting budget going to look like? Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say you could buy used kind of newer generation ASICs, meaning like they came out in the last one to two years.
00:42:22
Speaker
in somewhere around, I don't know, $1,000 per ASIC. You know, on the very cheap side, maybe six, 700 bucks per ASIC. So six to 700 bucks to like 1,300 bucks is kind of, so I'll say 1,000 bucks as the median there. So yeah, maybe if you'd probably want to be running, if you're going to spend the time and invest the time and energy into it, you probably want to be running at least 10 ASICs, I'd say, you know.
00:42:48
Speaker
there is a lot of kind of like a big learning curve there. So you do have to spend the time and energy to figure all of that out. So yeah, I'd say 10, A6 and you probably need to put down some sort of deposit at a hosting facility. So you're probably talking like 15 to 20 grand, $20,000 all in to get started for a decent budget to get started mining.
00:43:11
Speaker
Right. And what would be your kind of average hash rate of that starting budget? Yeah, you have right around a pet hash, one pet hash, which is 1,000 tera hash.
00:43:23
Speaker
And that would get you about in Bitcoin. So your daily revenue would be currently right around $80 per day. And let's assume you're able to get a decent hosting deal of paying somewhere around $0.07, $0.06 to $0.07 per kilowatt hour. And you're running like these, let's say, S19 J-Pros. You'd be at, what is that? Like somewhere around, you're making about $40 per day in profit.
00:43:53
Speaker
That is not bad. That's a sweet deal. Yeah, exactly. So what is that? About 10, 12 grand per year, assuming you're running at 100% what we call uptime, meaning you're constantly running the miners all day. Right. That's actually good. I think that's pretty typical is the payback period is 18 to 24 months for the investment.
00:44:16
Speaker
Right. Yeah. They do pay back for themselves. And that's not considering the increase in the Bitcoin price. Correct. But yeah, it'll be interesting. Like I said, that revenue will drop off from $80 per day to right around $45 per day after the halving.
00:44:35
Speaker
Maybe it goes back up to 50 or 55 as machines drop off the network. But yeah, so your revenue gets kind of crunched significantly. So now instead of making $40 a day for the next, say three months until the halving, now you're making, post halving, you're making five, 10, $15 per day.
00:44:54
Speaker
Right, yeah. I mean, there's always that side of the coin. I was looking though at your hashing index, like your guy's hashing index, and it looks like hash miners used to be really expensive, and then they dropped in value a lot, meaning that it's a lot cheaper nowadays to get started than it used to be. Is that right?
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think you're referring to like the ASIC price index. So we've kind of got this other kind of business line called hash rate index, which does all sorts of data analysis, research and forecasting for Bitcoin mining. And one of the indexes that we publish is this ASIC price index. So they kind of lump it into different efficiencies of machines. So kind of like the old gen machines, I don't know the actual term for these, but mid gen machines and new gen machines.
00:45:48
Speaker
and compare those efficiencies and the prices of those machines based on efficiency. And yes, you're exactly right. Like at the end of 2022 or in 2022 and at the beginning of 2023, ASIC prices were very high. Like you were spending several thousand dollars for a newer gen machine.
00:46:08
Speaker
I think the low point was somewhere in the summer of last year of 2023, where, like I said, those those ASICs started becoming
00:46:18
Speaker
going for instead of three thousand four thousand dollars each, they were going for a thousand bucks each. And that was because Bitcoin mining started to become much less profitable. Obviously, Bitcoin price at the end of twenty two twenty two was very low. So I think you had a combination of it becoming less profitable, but you also had because of a lot of Bitcoin miners went bankrupt in twenty twenty two. They had this mass liquidation of a six.
00:46:46
Speaker
And so that's what really pushed the price down. So a lot of these companies were forced to sell their ASICs. And so it didn't matter. There wasn't quite enough demand to keep the prices elevated. And so prices had to go down in order to absorb all of that supply of ASICs.
00:47:03
Speaker
Was that around the time Bitcoin was about $15,000 to $16,000? Yeah, yeah. So I think that happened throughout the second half of 2022. A lot of Bitcoin miners went bust, but yeah, I mean, you know, when you had FTX in November of 2022 and Bitcoin price was $15,000 or $16,000. Yeah, that's when I think a lot of those Bitcoin miners officially went bust. So.
00:47:27
Speaker
Right. So you guys do offer something to hedge some of the risks associated with mining, right?
Luxor's Role in Risk Management and Client Services
00:47:34
Speaker
You have a derivative solution, which is also kind of your specialty. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, so I joined Luxor as part of the derivatives group, as I mentioned. And we have also what's called, in addition to that ASIC price index through the hash rate index, we have what's called a hash price index.
00:47:54
Speaker
And so hash price is essentially the expected revenue that a Bitcoin miner can expect to receive running one petahash of hash rate on the Bitcoin network per day. So kind of like as we were talking about, running those 1086 on your own, you're generating about one petahash of hash rate per day.
00:48:15
Speaker
And so that number I quoted, um, that roughly $80 per pet a hash per day is the expected revenue. And that is what our hash price index is. So hash price is that expected revenue. So, um, what we did is we create Lux at Lux or we created this index and we had this index that tracks hash price over every 15 seconds over the course of an entire day.
00:48:40
Speaker
So because hash rate is a continuously delivered commodity, like something like electricity, you can't just say, what is the value of hash price one time per day? You actually need to monitor it through the entire course of an entire day. And so we take every 15 seconds, what's the value right now? And we average all of those 15 second price prints to get one value every single day.
00:49:04
Speaker
Anyway, that's to say that we have this index that we've built. And so we built these derivatives products around that hash price index. And
00:49:13
Speaker
These kind of derivatives products that we've built, we're not reinventing the wheel here. They exist in every sort of traditional commodity market out there. So for energy, there's oil and gas futures that are traded on exchange. For agricultural products like wheat, corn, soybeans, all of those have financial products where the producers, the farmers or the producers of those products
00:49:41
Speaker
Can actually hedge their price exposure so if you're a farmer you're a let's say wheat farmer and you are planting your crop you are subject to wherever the price of wheat goes whenever you harvest your crop at the end of the season. And so that's where where these financial products were invented several hundred years ago.
00:50:01
Speaker
in order for farmers to be able to hedge their exposure. So I know as a farmer, hey, it costs me, I'm not very good at this either, but $5 per bushel to harvest my crop, to plant it and harvest it at the end of the year. I know that ahead of time, I can sell my wheat crop at $10 per bushel and lock in $5 profit guaranteed, as long as I deliver that wheat at the end of the harvest season.
00:50:28
Speaker
And so these products are not new. This exists and it allows that farmer to plan into the future and to know and have certainty as to what kind of revenue they're going to get at the end of the season. And so we basically did the exact same thing for Bitcoin mining. And so what our product allows Bitcoin miners to do is
00:50:50
Speaker
because the index is based around their expected revenue for Bitcoin miners every single day for one petahash of hash rate, they're able to say, yeah, Dan, I want to lock in a $80 hash price for the month of February. And I know I'm producing my one petahash cost me $40 to produce, and I'll sell it at 80 bucks and lock in $40 profit for every single day for every petahash that I generate for the month of February.
00:51:20
Speaker
And so our contracts, you can trade them out as far as six months, which is really cool. So right now you can create February, March, April, May, June, and July. And so what's really cool about them is that you can see where the market is pricing hash price after the halving, which is really, really cool. And I don't think exists anywhere else in Spain.
00:51:43
Speaker
So our market traded a May contract the other day at a price of $47.50.
00:51:50
Speaker
Um, so the market is saying, Hey, that's where exactly where we think hash price will be. Obviously the buyer thinks it'll be higher. The seller thinks it'll be lower. Um, but that's the price that traded and, and it's pretty good indication. I think of where hash price will be after the having. That is pretty cool. That is great. So you could in fact earn or see what you're going to earn once, once the having happens. That's, that's really cool.
00:52:15
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So it's really cool to kind of be a part of it and to kind of build out this using traditional finance concept, building out a product in the Bitcoin mining space tailored to Bitcoin miners and being able to hedge their revenue. Right. And that's mostly you're seeing small, medium businesses kind of using this product.
00:52:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say we literally see every size. So we have, I believe, seven pubcos onboarded as well. So we are kind of the large Bitcoin mining public companies. We have them onboarded as well. But yeah, I'd say generally, you know, we're seeing trades anywhere from, you know, a few petahash on the much smaller size up to several exahash in size transacting as well.
00:53:09
Speaker
So it's, uh, yeah, you see kind of literally everything from the small retail miner to the large institutional kind of financial instrument works for you guys so long as the, as the Bitcoin price is higher. So you can also, you know, make some money off of the associated risk, but what happens in a bear market, in a bear training market where people, you know, um, ask for their, their hash rate fees paid forward. But if you take the risk, you end up making less money.
00:53:38
Speaker
Yeah, so to be totally clear too, Luxor stands as what we call the principal or the market operator here. So we're kind of the exchange. So we are not taking the other side of these trades. We have multiple market makers onboarded on the platform, and so they provide liquidity for these markets.
00:53:58
Speaker
And so it's generally, you know, a minor trading with a market maker selling to a market maker. It's also, and so to be totally clear as well, we have two products. And what we're talking about is what's called a non-deliverable Ford. And I don't want to get too deep into this, but it looks a lot like a futures product. The only difference is it's not traded on an exchange, it's traded what's called OTC. So it's over the counter.
00:54:24
Speaker
And so those contracts are completely customizable is kind of the big difference between a futures product and an OTC forward. So there's no physical hashrate that's being exchanged here. This is all a synthetic representation of hashrate.
00:54:40
Speaker
And so what that allows miners to do is continue mining their normal operation, hedge out their revenue risk or their price risk, and know for sure that they've locked in $80 per petahash per day. We also see from the buy side people that are interested in buying hash rate or synthetic hash rate.
00:55:01
Speaker
So they can get exposure to Bitcoin mining without actually physically deploying Bitcoin miners. So like we said, it can be a huge headache and it takes a lot of time and energy to actually deploy physical infrastructure to mine Bitcoin. And so this is a way for them to synthetically get exposure to the upside. If they think, hey, I think there's a couple of big ordinals projects dropping in the next month or so, transaction fees are going to go crazy.
00:55:29
Speaker
I want to buy some hash rate and that may be profitable for them to do so instead of physically deploying miners. Right. And the exchange at the end of the day is you give me Bitcoin and I'll give you the cash equivalent of that Bitcoin. Yeah. So it's kind of like, so it's all cash settled. And so it's kind of like if I were the buyer of this transaction and I paid $70 per petahash.
00:55:58
Speaker
Every single day, we settle that on a daily basis. And so if the daily settlement of that hash price value was 80 on the first day, that means that I made the difference between 80 and 70. It's like I was mining at a cost of $70 per petahash. So I made $10 difference, $10 of profit, times whatever size of the contract that I executed. So if I did 15 petahash, I did multiply 15 petahash times a $10 profit.
00:56:25
Speaker
And we do that every day for the month of the contract that you traded. So for example, for February, for all 29 days.
00:56:32
Speaker
Right. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. So it's completely a synthetic representation. But I think importantly as well, we have a second product that's maybe a little bit more to what you were referring to. It's called a deliverable for it. And so that is where the actual physical hashrate is delivered to Luxor's pool. And somebody purchases that hashrate at a discount. They say, hey, here's 10 Bitcoin for, I don't know what the number is, 100 petahash for the next 30 days.
00:57:01
Speaker
And so the seller, the miner of that contract gets to collect that Bitcoin on day one of that contract instead of waiting to have to mine every single day for the month of February. And so they are willing to sell their hash rate at a discount.
00:57:16
Speaker
in exchange for receiving that Bitcoin on day one, because that means instead of having to wait to get the rewards, they can every single they can go deploy that Bitcoin to go buy more ASICs. They can buy containers. They can buy more infrastructure in order to expand their operation. And it's a way for them to get access to capital at the start of the contract instead of having to wait all that time to mine that Bitcoin.
00:57:40
Speaker
Right. Right. Yeah. And that makes sense that I feel like it makes it fair. You get a little bit less, I'm guessing, than you normally would by mining yourself. But you get the lump sum, you don't get daily rate. Speaking of which, do you pay, you've mentioned before your payment system for your mining pools. Is that on a weekly basis, monthly basis? Yeah. It's all, you're talking the FPPS rates. So those are all done in real time.
00:58:07
Speaker
So from a mining pool perspective, what you're doing as a miner is submitting what's called shares to a mining pool. And without going too deep into it, it's a proof that you did a certain amount of work in order to submit that share to the mining pool. And so the mining pool actually pays you for those shares that you submit to the mining pool.
00:58:30
Speaker
Right. And so that's that's done on literally on a continuous basis. So like, like on my, you know, my mining pool, GUI with Luxor pool, I can see in real time, oh, you just made point zero zero zero zero one more Bitcoin in revenue for for the last I don't know what it is. 10 seconds, 30 seconds, one minute. I don't know. So yeah, that's all the payouts are in real time. Yeah.
00:58:56
Speaker
That would get me hooked, man. I'm telling you. Just refresh, refresh. I do that anywhere with my charts. I could look at my coin charts and I'm like, oh, fuck, let me refresh that screen again. Yeah, I get addicted to numbers 100%. Yeah, it's not much. I think I've made something like for the last month and a half, I've been mining something like 0.004 Bitcoin, something like that. So it's not much at all.
00:59:24
Speaker
But it's cool to kind of go through the process and understand how it all works. 100%. Yeah. And it's there and it's green. The fact that the number is green, it takes my brain. It's like green is good. Yes. More of that. Great. Yeah. Totally great. Well, listen, it's been a great conversation. I'm just conscious of us disconnecting again in about four minutes. Okay.
00:59:46
Speaker
I just wanted to give you the chance to kind of announce anything that you guys have up and coming or anything that you want to let people know, any socials or anything like that at all. Sure, sure. Yeah, you can find me on Twitter.
Conclusion and Contact Information
01:00:02
Speaker
I'm a hash price guy. So I'm actually the handle is at crypto options, OG.
01:00:09
Speaker
Obviously, kind of a dated handle from my previous crypto options trading days. But yeah, we're starting to, like I said, in our derivatives products, onboarding a lot of large counterparties and really excited about the volume growth from
01:00:23
Speaker
Q3 of last year to now, where it's probably something like 8 to 10 X of what it was in Q3. So we're super optimistic of where this is going. But yeah, if you're interested in getting into Bitcoin mining, or are a Bitcoin miner already and interested in chatting about derivatives or any really other Luxor product line, happy to point you in the right direction there. Awesome. And that's luxor.tech. Yes, correct.
01:00:52
Speaker
That's our main website. And you can kind of reach any of our business lines through that main page. Sweet, dude. Well, thanks a lot for the conversations. It's been really, really interesting. I think that's it for now. Bye, everybody. Pleasure. Thanks, Andre.