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Ep 11 2 Tech Editors Talk
182 Plays3 years ago
Listen while Tiffany and I ramble our way through a comparison of knit and crochet crafts, especially as seen through the eyes of tech editors. Show notes can be found at https://articedits.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Knit, Design, Edit, Sleep, Repeat with Lisa Conway, Denise Finley and Tiffany Wooten. Let's listen in and see what's happening, who's happening and what's new.
Knit vs Crochet: Key Differences
00:00:37
Speaker
Listen, while Tiffany and I ramble our way through a comparison of knit and crochet crafts, especially as seen through the eyes of tech editors. One, begin. Hey, Tiffany, Mario. Hi, Tiffany. Hi, Lisa. How are you? I can't wait to see what that edit sound like.
00:01:09
Speaker
Okay, we can redo it again.
00:01:13
Speaker
No, not gonna do that. I'm gonna tell everybody, we are going to be ourselves today. We are ourselves today. We do get like this. Yeah, especially when the coffee starts kicking in. And especially given the fact that you've had very little sleep because you've had one night off in two weeks. Actually more than two weeks. It's been a very long couple of weeks. So yeah,
00:01:40
Speaker
We do I do have a tendency to get a little punchy. And for those who haven't caught on, I do work nights. And Lisa is three hours behind me. So it's really essentially morning for both of us and our morning coffee is kicking in for both of us. So hang on for the ride. It's gonna be fun. Yeah, this is gonna be really amazingly interesting. Enjoy the laughs.
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, I guarantee you that I'm going to enjoy the laughs as I go through editing this.
Tech Editing Experiences
00:02:18
Speaker
But today, people, for your information, because Tiffany is a crochet tech editor, and I'm a knit tech editor, and neither one of us really crosses that boundary, at least not yet. I hope to add crochet someday. And I have edited a couple of crochet patterns, but simple ones. Yeah. And I've edited some basic knitting ones. And when I got in over my head, reached out for some help from some other wonderful people. So yeah.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah. But our in-depth knowledge of the other craft is very lacking compared to our own craft. Exactly. Exactly. And while I do crochet, I've never crocheted garment that's on my bucket list because I've never done a garment. I've got a knit tank in there that I still haven't finished. So I don't know if that
00:03:18
Speaker
Well, you've at least approached the idea of it. I've never discovered idea. I discovered I actually enjoy knitting in the round, so it's very soothing. That's kind of what drew me in. It is. It is very nice. I like to knit in the round. That's yeah, you can just kind of sit there and do. Yeah, it's the Lorraine's Lorraine's Lace by Affiliate Cat.
00:03:45
Speaker
I found her during the Uplift Make-A-Long back in 2021.
Lisa's Knitting Project
00:03:51
Speaker
It's made out of a wheat crochet knit picks dishie. And it's actually, it's actually a really pretty piece. I'm up to like, it's bottom up, so that's new for me. I've never done bottom up. And I'm up to the neck bind off and I've got to do the collar and sleeves. And that's it, I'm done. But I, because I haven't had any time, I haven't gotten it finished.
00:04:16
Speaker
but it's actually a really great piece and I'll send, I'll put the links up for you so that you can share it in the show notes in case anybody wants to look at it. Cause it's, it's a really great summer piece because it's cotton and it's dishy at that. It can go in the washer and dryer and it works great. So I'm really excited about it. I'm really curious. How does dishy compare to some of the other worsted by cottons like, uh,
00:04:42
Speaker
What is it? I find I so the stuff like the the cone cotton at like Walmart and that kind of thing. I can't think of a million cream or something. There you go. Yeah, I find it softer than Lilian cream. It's a little bit thicker than Lilian cream. So I think it stands up better. My mom and I have used it for my mom has made
00:05:06
Speaker
thousands of dish, well hundreds of dishcloths out of Dishy and they have all held up magnificently between me and her and my grandmother and my gradient and my aunt and like she just makes them when she gets into a funk that's what she makes some people turn into socks. She did dishcloths for a lot of years this year she's turned into socks but um it is actually held up really really well
00:05:31
Speaker
for this beginner knitter who has, who's figuring out making a garment and around and all the things that go with it. Um, it has actually, it doesn't seem to be stretching too much, which is nice. I'm really looking forward to that part of it. And it's actually got a really nice stitch definition. So, and they've got a ton of colors. How does it wash? Can you put it in hot water and
00:06:02
Speaker
You know, like using it as a dishcloth, you're using it in real hot water. And I use when I, when I wash, yep. And it doesn't bleed. When I wash them in the, in the washing machine, everything goes in cold because I'm, admittedly I'm a lazy washer. So everything goes in cold with the detergents, but, um, it, it holds up great in the sink. I use them in the sink all the time and.
00:06:27
Speaker
I actually have gotten to the point, I take them to work in my lunchbox as a reusable napkin at work, because I can never seem to find a napkin at work other than the rough brown paper towels. So I take those and they work great. Wonderful. They double as a coaster.
00:06:46
Speaker
So yeah, I'll send you the, I'll, I'll give you the links to put in the show notes for that. It's a great, it's a beautiful piece. So I, I, I like nitpicks. We crochet yarns anyway. They're a great price point. Get my mouth to work price point. And they've got quality fibers and all of that. So yeah.
00:07:08
Speaker
Well, let's move into the tech editing and the pattern comparisons.
The Romance in Patterns
00:07:14
Speaker
I have my first question. Do crochet patterns include that romance section at the beginning, you know, the intro that gives the inspiration of the pattern and that sort of thing like knit patterns now do? They do.
00:07:34
Speaker
They do. And just like in the pattern, some people are better at it than others. And unfortunately, I'm not one of them. Which makes it a little bit hard as an editor to be able to help them. But yeah, they do come with the romancing of the pattern and the romance language of, this is why you should make this beautiful piece. And this is what will come with this beautiful piece.
00:08:04
Speaker
I think it just, it kind of helps set the expectation, and this is my opinion of it, is even if some people don't quite romance it, I think an intro is needed, regardless of the craft, whether it's crochet, Tunisian, or knit, because it helps set the expectation of what the piece is, you know? What is this? And okay, I can see from the picture it's a shirt. Great, what's so great about this shirt? Oh, okay, it's, you know, it's got a lace section to it.
00:08:33
Speaker
You know, in the front is all solid. Okay, cool. Let's, you know, is this bottom up as a top down? That's my, yeah. Giving you a little detail. Yes. Yeah. It's in as a knit tech editor. I look at the romance that comes with a pattern in terms of, is this really marketing the piece to its best advantage?
00:08:55
Speaker
Yes. Right. And does it give the right kind of detail? And I do look at that. I don't often change it much unless there's like a grammatical error. Yeah. But I have for especially a brand new designer, I have kind of walked through it a little bit more and
00:09:13
Speaker
Hey, you know, I noticed your pattern has this in it, but you don't talk about it in your romance. And you might want to put that there because it's interesting detail that a knitter looking at your pattern might find helpful kind of thing.
Defining Skill Levels in Patterns
00:09:29
Speaker
So, okay. Well, I guess we, regardless of what type of pattern it is, you're still marketing it. And to me, that's the marketing portions. So very much so. Very much so. Yeah.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's one of those things that, you know, we do have to be able to market our own stuff. And even if it is difficult, it is, and that's the blurb that you can kind of copy and paste into your shop, whether it's Etsy or your website, or I think Ravelry does it. I don't remember anymore. If it is a well-written romance, you can copy and paste it everywhere. You spend the time on one intro and you can use it in a thousand places.
00:10:14
Speaker
Right. It's a very hard portion. Yes, exactly. It's a good example of being able to repurpose. And believe me in marketing repurposing is the key. It really is. With 1000 places that you need to market yourself and your work. It's so important to find those pieces that you can use over and over again. So very much so.
00:10:42
Speaker
Well, the next thing we usually find in a knitting pattern would be skill levels. And I know the Craft Yarn Council has skill levels for both knit and crochet, don't they? I believe there are skill levels written. I don't know if they're actually defined. I know that one of the girls on Instagram that I know, she was working on
00:11:14
Speaker
She was working on kind of solidifying a skill level set, but I don't know if she ever got it solidified, if that makes sense. So it's not, it's her standard, but not necessarily
00:11:36
Speaker
Well, she was actually crowdsourcing and I'm trying to look up her handle real quick. She was crowdsourcing from, she had actually put up a quiz and was attempting to crowdsource from other makers. You know, what would you consider beginner? What would you consider? And she was using a lot of the, she was getting with designers and she was getting with other makers and that kind of thing.
00:12:05
Speaker
And she was kind of trying to help make a, um, a standard, a standard. Yeah. Because there's not, um, I don't, we, I don't know if there's actually a definitive standard written anywhere for either side. Quite honestly, like everybody can kind of be like, well, I think this is.
00:12:27
Speaker
Now I will challenge a designer because some of them actually do list skill levels. I will challenge a designer if I do not think the skills needed for the pattern match what the designer has listed. So like if they have listed it as an adventurous beginner and I consider it more of an intermediate
00:12:54
Speaker
advanced pattern, I will challenge them and I will tell them about that. And they, you know, Drea's hook, that's what it was. Her name is Andrea. That was her, that's her handle. I couldn't think of it. It was making me crazy. Sorry. Andrea was trying to kind of solidify it and she's had a lot of things going on. She's gotten married in the last year. So I think that may be one of her projects that kind of
00:13:23
Speaker
took a back seat, but she does have a scalable level assessment quiz. And that's kind of where it spawned was she was like, let's do a skill level quiz to help you figure out where you are. And then let's try and solidify the skill levels. Um, that's really cool. I like it. What it is. It's actually a really nice quiz. And I know some designers who are like, Hey, if you don't know where you are, take this quiz and see if it'll, it'll point you in the right, the general realm of where you are.
00:13:51
Speaker
Right. Well, I know that on the knitting side, having been trained by the Knitting Guild Association as a tech editor, they push really hard the skill levels that have been written by the Craft Yarn Council.
00:14:07
Speaker
Now, I know that not everybody uses those as their basis, but that's usually where I start and kind of move forward. But I also tend to recommend to my designers, rather than using a level, that they actually list the skills in the pattern that are going to be necessary, because people can look at that and much more easily say, well, I can do this, this and this, but I'll have to research that, and I'm willing to do that.
00:14:35
Speaker
That was actually something I just saw on a knitting pattern here very recently that I was looking at. And I don't remember what pattern it was, but I was very intrigued by that idea. And I actually really liked that idea because like you, it puts it up front. It makes it very clear of, okay, can you cast on in the round? Do you know how to do a foundation-less chain or a foundation-less
00:15:04
Speaker
half double crochet, no? Okay, here's what you need to know. And I actually, I'm with you. I very much like that idea. I don't know how we could go about categorizing that as a skill level per se, but I do like listing the skills. I saw that and I was very, very intrigued by that. Well, I think it's more important to list what skills are used in the pattern than a level
00:15:33
Speaker
Because if you say a pattern is intermediate, for example, and you've got an adventurous beginner, they may see intermediate and and not take the leap because they don't think they're there yet. Whereas in reality, everything that's in that pattern is in terms of skills used. They may know 99% of it, if not all.
00:16:03
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. And it may be very, yeah, that's very valid because they may be very, very open to challenges. Right. And so, yeah. Well, I'm ready for this challenge, but I'm not ready for that one. Correct. You know, like I, you know, like I was, okay, I'm ready to start knitting in the round.
00:16:27
Speaker
maybe I can conquer a beginning lace section, you know, because I learned the SSK on this particular tank that I've been talking about, the Lorraine's lace. I learned SSK and casting on and around. So those were two new things that I learned on this one. But anything else beyond that as far as lace or
00:16:53
Speaker
Well, yeah talking talking about SSK if you want a little help I have a It's not quite a one-pass SSK, but it's very close to what well it is a one-pass SSK because you never take the stitches off the left needle and I have a tutorial for it on the knit on the podcast YouTube channel and
00:17:17
Speaker
Okay. And there's backup links to the person who taught it to me and his recordings. So I like it. There's lots of different ways. Yeah, it's it is. It's the only tutorial I have recorded thus far. But we were comparing the way he does it versus the way I do it. And having the two videos was really helpful.
00:17:42
Speaker
So yes, feel free. There is that tutorial available. I will be checking podcast YouTube channel. I will be checking that out because I will take all the hints I can get right now. So like I said, well, baby net are trying to learn. And it
00:18:02
Speaker
It doesn't make the SSK easier, per se. It just cuts out steps. And there's a little tip in there on how to make it neater so that it actually matches your knit two together a little better. So those are all in there. And again, for next time, I'm going to remake this tank because I will be making another in another color. Hey.
00:18:29
Speaker
It's a beautiful staple piece is a great staple piece. You'll have to see it. Yeah, I will. So anyway, so going back to levels again, I really prefer when my designers use what skills are needed versus applying a level, even though I was taught to use levels. If that makes any sense. I think everybody has just become very accustomed to levels, unfortunately, you know, and
00:18:58
Speaker
I, so like, I've been crocheting for years, you know, and there's some things that I don't do.
Skills and Techniques Discussion
00:19:08
Speaker
I make cables, you know, I can, I can make peacock, you know, peacocks because you make fancy. Yeah, there you go. I can make fancy edges. Do I like it? No. Will I do it? Not really, not unless I need to. Um, you know, there's a, a couple of patterns that I've had to because it makes the edging.
00:19:28
Speaker
There are certain things that I just will not touch and there are certain things that other people will not touch and those skills may define it as a skill level. I consider myself an advanced intermediate. I don't consider myself an advanced crocheter just because I won't. Do I understand the concept? Yes. Can I tech edit the concept? Yes. Will I personally execute the concept? No.
00:19:52
Speaker
And for that reason alone, well, and I'm just being honest, like I, for that reason alone, I don't consider myself an advanced crochet or just because I do not want to broomstick lace. I have no desire to do broomstick lace. Some people consider broomstick lace an advanced, you know, an advanced skill level. I have no desire to do it ever. It's beautiful. I love looking at it. I love watching people do it. I have no desire to do it. So.
00:20:20
Speaker
I get it? Yeah. Can I edit it? Sure. All day long. But I don't, I don't personally have any desire to work on that skill set. So I do like the idea of listing the skills needed or the stitches needed to be able to utilize. And I think that's
00:20:43
Speaker
To a point, I think that's where the special skills or the special stitches section comes in and making sure that everything's listed in the abbreviation section. But I do like being able to summarize skills needed underneath romancing the language intro. You know, I do like.
00:21:02
Speaker
Well, and the other thing too is you can use that skill level skills used in your marketing, just like you do with the romance versus, uh, the, you're not going to put your entire abbreviations list and techniques list. Yeah, you're not going to list marketing. You're not going to list chain. You're not going to listen to it. You're not going to list Pearl, but you can put knit two together, skip two together, double crochet two together, you know,
00:21:32
Speaker
Um, right. Fan stitch kind of thing. So yeah, I can, I do like that concept. And that's one thing that on the crochet side is not done very frequently, but maybe that's something that we can inspire makers to do. I think you see it a lot more on the knitting side than you really do. You really do. You really do. So, um,
00:22:01
Speaker
I, but I do think that it's one of those things that I think could be helpful to cross lines, cross lines, cross crafts. I think, I think that would be something that would be super useful to cross crafts on. Right, right. Yeah, it's, it's just one of those things that what's real life, what's practical versus what is the theoretical
Accessibility in Crafting
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's the word I was looking for. Thank you. The theoretical, the academic, and maybe that's why we're also stuck on skill levels and such is because of the academic worlds that we kind of grew up in is, you know, we're so used to, this is your level, this is your, you know, this is what you have accomplished. And maybe that's where it stems from. But I do, I was very, like I said, I was very intrigued to see it on that it pattern. And that is one thing that I
00:22:58
Speaker
I personally would love to see more on the crochet side because like you, I think it makes it more, the patterns more accessible. Yes. Because I was anything we can do to allow for accessibility. And that's going to take me off topic just a little bit because accessibility to the
00:23:22
Speaker
non-standard knitter slash Chris Shayer, for example, our lovely friend Denise, who is having challenges with her vision and having a pattern that allows for her to increase the font so that she can print it at a level, she can read it, that sort of thing. Little things like that are things that we should start thinking about more in the industry.
00:23:53
Speaker
Because one of those things that I desperately want to figure out and learn how to make them more accessible for people like Denise and people who, you know, they just, they're using screen readers or whatever. And I know there's a couple of other editors that can't bring their names to mind right now that they are very into that. And I'm like, I need to start devouring their blogs to figure out and learn so that
00:24:21
Speaker
to be a better asset to my makers and to designers on how to help because you're right accessibility is a thing. There's a lot of things that go into that and a lot of things we don't even think about.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and for example, I have a dyslexic child and reading a pattern as a dyslexic is a completely different skill set. Um, our former interviewee, Jill Wolcott talks about how she changed the way she writes patterns because she herself is dyslexic.
00:25:00
Speaker
Oh, okay. That was a really interesting thing. Charts in particular and the way she creates her charts are unique and I'd love to learn. I need to spend the time to learn more on that because it, but different types of dyslexia require different types of assistance.
00:25:20
Speaker
And my child is dyslexic, not in what she reads, but in what she does with her hands. So it's a translation issue between what goes into the brain and what comes out through the muscles.
00:25:35
Speaker
So it affects the way she writes. It affects the way she does math. It can affect the way she interprets the movements required to create a knit or crochet stitch. While she has successfully managed to knit, excuse me, slightly
00:25:59
Speaker
tummy issue there. Sorry about that. Um, she has successfully knit a hat. She was started off on a crochet learning process and within a couple of rows she gave it up because she just could not make her hands work correctly. And I think it really takes, would take more of
00:26:26
Speaker
A good crochet teacher and her watching versus trying to read it. Yeah. But how Having somebody and having somebody there with her would probably help that. Right, where she can actually watch
00:26:43
Speaker
But how can we write patterns that meet that need? And what do we need to change to do that is a big question mark in my mind a lot of the time because I'm constantly looking at patterns.
00:26:58
Speaker
Font, the font that people use, I was on a website the other day and the font was so, even as a non-dyslexic reader, who has admittedly old eyes, but not too bad a vision. I do have the beginnings of cataracts, but they're not bad. They're not like clouding my site.
00:27:26
Speaker
But this font was so curly, I could not tell the difference. You couldn't tell the difference between an S and a Z. You couldn't tell the difference between a G and an E, literally. It was that hard. It was trying to figure out by context what that letter was.
00:27:52
Speaker
Oh, it was horrid. It was absolutely horrid. That's one of those patterns I would probably immediately put down or walk away from no matter how badly I wanted to make it. Yeah. That or I would copy and paste it into a document and change it into a more legible font.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yep, exactly. So in thinking about our fonts, think about its clarity and its clarity for those who might be dyslexic or might have some vision issues because that can affect who can make our patterns. And when the fonts are increased, even if you use a 12 or a 14 point font,
00:28:35
Speaker
or even if you go down to a 10, if somebody decides to increase it on their printing options or whatever the case may be, will that font increase at a legible rate that somebody, excuse me, that somebody can't read it? And that's going to, clearly our coffee's kicking in people. Will that font increase at a legible rate?
00:29:05
Speaker
you know, to be able to be printed. So yeah, that's a good, that's a really good point. Yeah. And I, I've had a pattern come across my desk as a tech editor that I, I specifically said to the designer, I really think you need to rethink your font.
00:29:21
Speaker
because it was a script font and while it wasn't the one I was talking about a few moments ago, it still was enough that I felt that it made the pattern more difficult to read. And before I even edited it, I did, thankfully I had a Word doc and I changed the font.
00:29:40
Speaker
So that I could print it and read it better for myself But I and I told them that I said, you know Just just really consider the fact that you've got people out there who cannot read those curls So a sans serif font works a lot better Or at least if it's not a sans serif font at least it's not a super scripty font. Yeah, which is awful and
00:30:05
Speaker
So that went a little off track, but because we were talking about accessibility, you know, that's what we do guys. When we, when we, this is exactly how our conversations go.
00:30:20
Speaker
That's why we can never seem to get off of phone calls in less than an hour. Even when we've got places to be. And things to do, exactly. Exactly.
00:30:36
Speaker
In crochet in particular, there are very definite differences between British and American abbreviations and stitch names. Yes.
Terminology Variations: US vs UK
00:30:49
Speaker
Right. A single. Yeah. A single crochet in American is a double crochet. Yes. So I actually did. I have a when I can get my myself together.
00:31:06
Speaker
and I'm operating on all spoons and all levels, there is actually a very strong difference between US and UK abbreviations. And one of the things that is, and by the time that this post comes out,
00:31:32
Speaker
the post with Roe will have come out as well for languages or for, yeah, for languages. It's just like when we were talking with her about Dutch being different. So single crochet for us, for the US is a single, for the UK it's a double. For the US a half double crochet is a half treble crochet.
00:32:00
Speaker
and then their double crochet as a treble crochet. I think they count the yarn overs. I'm not 100% sure, but that's the closest that I can come up to figuring it out. Is there anywhere out there that has like a table with the differences? So the Craft Grown Council actually has some of the abbreviations. I found some when I went through. I do a tech edit Tuesday slash Thursday, depending on what day I can get my stuff together.
00:32:29
Speaker
And I actually did a three-part segment over three weeks of the differences to consider between US-UK. One of them was the definitions. One of them was the measurements because we... And this is something that I don't think that knitting does, but something that crochet does is our hooks are labeled
00:32:54
Speaker
With that one here that show you perfectly is they letters. Yes, is the letters and then possibly the millimeters.
00:33:08
Speaker
or the very random numbers that were created for whatever reason. I haven't done the research on that, so I'm not trying to speak to that portion, but usually it's like a, for the U S hooks, it's so like a, um, an H eight, which is a five millimeter hook. Well, guess what? The UK, the UK makers typically only go by millimeters.
00:33:32
Speaker
And most of the knitting needles, as far as I can tell, go by millimeters. There are random numbers I've noticed. OK. There's actually three different ways they can be labeled, depending on how old they are. Oh, OK. Because the US has one system, the UK had another system, and then they've now gone to millimeters. Correct. And the systems, the US and the UK systems were originally based on wire gauge
00:33:59
Speaker
numbers. So for US we go, the very smallest is a quad zero. So it's zero, zero, zero, zero. And the, well, I say the smallest, the smallest that you generally can find. I think there was at one point a smaller one, but it was such a fine gauge wire that it really, you know, they were basically using wire, right?
00:34:30
Speaker
And then we go up from there and we have odd breaks because at 10 it goes 10, 10 and a half, 11. And then it skips to 13 and then it skips to 15.
00:34:49
Speaker
Okay, so that explains the numbers on because I did notice on my needles the other day, they actually match the number on my hook. And I was very intrigued by that. But again, I hadn't done the research. So that explains. So I probably crochet hooks were based a little on gauge, higher gauge sizes as well. Makes sense. But then in the UK, the numbers are reversed.
00:35:16
Speaker
So their little sizes are the higher numbers and their big sizes are the smaller numbers and they I don't know what they did when they got to like the 15s because
00:35:30
Speaker
By then they've run out of numbers, right? But, um, the us seven and the UK seven are the only one that are the same millimeter size, but now the industry is right. The industry is moving towards this millimeter size because it's more global. Yeah. The millimeters is way more global and it's definitely more understandable. I like,
00:36:01
Speaker
I like having it, but as an editor, I definitely advocate for listing all of the sizes because like you said, depending on how old the hook is or the needle is, it may only list one size and somebody's not going to go run down to the craft store just to buy a hook or a needle that says what you're looking for by listing it in the pattern you prevent. You've saved them the time.
00:36:29
Speaker
of having to go look it up. Now, I will say in knitting, we generally list the US size and the millimeter size. We tend to ignore the old UK numbers. A, because there was such a short list of them, it's really easy to look it up. And B, because they've been on the millimeter system long enough that most people know how to convert it anyway.
00:36:59
Speaker
So we list U.S. and we list millimeter. And I will also say that it's a little bit of American ego that we still have to list the U.S. sizes because as Americans, we tend to ignore that millimeter when we shouldn't. That's true, unfortunately. Yeah, I've tried.
00:37:27
Speaker
makes it easier to, like you said, it's more accessible to use the millimeter. But that's one of those things when I'm editing, I definitely go in and I'm like, somebody will list the millimeter on the hook. And I'm like, hey, put these other numbers in. Here's what the rest of it is. The Craft Yarn Council's got a great listing of it on their website of what
00:37:47
Speaker
And they've even got the knitting needles listed of millimeter to the number or whatever it is. And I will go ahead and list it. If I'm not mistaken, the knitting needles table in sizes at Craft Yarn Council includes the UK. So it has all three. It's millimeter in US. It does not look
Understanding Needle Size Systems
00:38:09
Speaker
at the website right now. Really? I thought the standards document had
00:38:12
Speaker
Oh, the document might, the document might, I'm looking at the actual like quick link website. Uh, okay. So yeah, the downloadable standards document, if I'm not mistaken, that would make actually lists all three. Let me see. Oh, that's not going to work on my system because I am tight. You know, you're a tech editor, you know, you're a tech editor when you can lay hands on that document very quickly.
00:38:38
Speaker
And I have one printed out somewhere, but I don't know where it ended up in the move. But I do use, I actually have the hook and needle portion website bookmarked. But I do advocate, while you're looking that up, I do advocate for listing both for knitting the millimeter and the US, and then in crochet the letter number combination and then the millimeter. Because like I said, depending on how old the,
00:39:08
Speaker
the hook or the needle is it may or may not be listed on the piece. Right. And you save somebody from having to go look it up. And if nothing else, you make your maker's life a little bit easier. No, something that they actually will remember. I actually lied because I printed it
00:39:31
Speaker
And it does just have the US in the millimeter range. Okay, because I printed both the crochet and the
00:39:43
Speaker
Knitting needles so that I had a ready I've got this little notebook I use when I'm editing and I have them the charts taped in the front and the back of it and No, they they didn't I thought at one point they did have the UK sizes in the in the But I could be wrong
00:40:03
Speaker
Well, and that could be something that they that they took took out years ago and the other thing could be that when I trimmed down the document to Tape it into my notebook. I may have just taken the UK sizes off of it. Yeah, I may I
00:40:18
Speaker
Anyway, I doubt it, but yeah, I did a, I did a three part section on the U S versus UK. And one of them was the abbreviations. One of them was the hooks. And then the other one was actually, um, and I think a lot of knitters will actually do this as well was consideration for measurements of, um, showing a on, especially on your gauge squared, your gauge squares four by four.
00:40:45
Speaker
listing it as a 10 by 10, so that the impure, or for the metric makers, they will understand what the conversion rate, general, the rough, general rough conversion rate will be for whatever you're working on, because the, and the, she's going to have all these links listed in the show notes. If you guys want to go in and look at it.
00:41:13
Speaker
But like converting inches to centimeters, one inch is 2.5 centimeters. Well, if you're converting centimeters to inches, one centimeter is 0.3937 inches. So those conversions can be very different.
00:41:29
Speaker
What we do in the knitting industry. Okay. In reality, the, the one inch is 2.54 centimeters in in real life in knitting and I'm assuming the same is true in Crochet is that we convert at that 2.5. So we've already rounded Correct. To make the conversion
00:41:55
Speaker
Yes, we do, we do that. We do that the same in crochet. And that's what I'm saying is I find it very, I find it necessary to list what measurement system you are using in your notes and in your gauge swatch, because if somebody's not going to read the notes, they better be reading the gauge swatch. And if you list it there, they should get a rough idea of what your, what your measurement is.
00:42:24
Speaker
Well, and as a tech editor that does grading, okay, all of the measurements listed because in knitting we try really hard to list both the Imperial and the metric in every
Global Pattern Measurements
00:42:37
Speaker
pattern. Not every designer does. There are some designers out there that design in metric and that's all they really want in their patterns and that's fine.
00:42:47
Speaker
And the same is true of imperial. But we have to remember, the US is the last country in the world that actually uses imperial measurements. The difference that there is one other country in the world that does not use metric, and that's China, but they have their own measurement system. Yeah, they have a whole different measurement system there.
00:43:12
Speaker
I don't even have details on what that measurement system is, but it is completely different from either the Imperial or the metric. It's closer to Imperial than it is to metric, but it's still different from. And Japan in their garment industry has a unique measurement system as well. And if you learn that one, it's probably even more precise than metric because
00:43:42
Speaker
I don't know how it was developed, but I have friends who have worked in the garment industry in the past, and they loved being able to use the Japanese methods for measuring because it made your curves much nicer and things like that. Interesting. Yeah.
00:44:11
Speaker
I've done just a little bit of delving into it at one point.
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's going to take too much brain power right now. But it really is. It's an extremely precise measuring system. But so in knitting, we do do that automatic rounding right from the start. And that rounding has to stay true throughout the pattern. So as I'm grading a garment, and I will say this, I like to grade in metric and then convert to imperial.
00:44:48
Speaker
but all conversions are done at that 2.5 rate. Yeah. So that the pattern actually comes out the way your gauge lists it. Correct. Correct. So let me ask you, circling back on the UK, US difference, is there a difference in knitting between US and UK? So like we were talking with, um, bro, and she said, what was it? She said, she said, uh, a double crochet was a stick, I think is what she said.
00:45:19
Speaker
Yes. And then we call it a double crochet, and then the UK calls it a treble. So is there a difference in US UK in knitting?
00:45:30
Speaker
Not really, no. While what I said is true, there's not a lot of difference between US and UK terminology and
Evolution of Craft Terminology
00:45:40
Speaker
knitting. There are a couple of abbreviations that are slightly different, usually in terms of where the yarn is placed. So with yarn forward, with yarn back, we would say in the US with yarn in front, with yarn in back. So there's slight changes, but very little.
00:46:00
Speaker
I've never run across specific abbreviations that were completely different. I say that. I can't imagine that there would be much difference worldwide. But again, I'm a very ignorant baby in the dark. So that's why I'm asking because I personally don't know.
00:46:28
Speaker
I know we've had this discussion in one of my groups, but there really is very little difference. There might be a different name for a cast on, for example, but there's not a difference. There seems to be a ton of different names for various cast ons that are essentially the same thing.
00:46:54
Speaker
Yes, and but there's not a big difference per se in say the abbreviations and how you manipulate the stitches to get to to achieve that terminology for that abbreviation. So no, there's not as big a difference in knitting as there is in crochet from from that. And that's one of those good that could be in part because of.
00:47:25
Speaker
The difference in how knitting and crochet evolved. What's possible? And where they evolved. That's possible. And just as a- How old is crochet? Much younger than knitting. I was going to say, what's the oldest example of crochet? Do we know? I've seen it somewhere, but I cannot. That's one of those trivial details I cannot bring to mind. I will be very honest. Right.
00:47:54
Speaker
But I do know that it is much younger than knitting. And so it may have evolved separately on the different continents versus knitting was brought from the European continent to the Americas.
00:48:13
Speaker
Yeah, so crochet may have kind of evolved separately on both, which makes for the difference. Yeah, now I know the Dutch to English is a lot to do with simply the language difference. Very much so. Yeah. And I think that's actually a lot of a lot of crochet differences. Like for the different countries, I call them different things. It is just a language thing. And
00:48:40
Speaker
as an editor, that's why I advocate to list not only what measurement system you're using, but also what terms you're using. Um, because it does make a difference. You know, if you're, if you're writing your pattern in, in us and you put it as a trouble and it's a UK maker, but you don't list whether it's a trouble us or trouble UK. So it's, it's a us maker listing it as a trouble, which is going to be a larger stitch. And then it's a UK maker.
00:49:08
Speaker
that doesn't know which trouble it is. So they're going to go with their trouble. It's a smaller stitch. So, um, I, I'm very, I advocate that being listed in all of my, you know, all of my designer's patterns because of that difference. And I actually have an Irish designer. Um, and she, I was blown away when I saw her first pattern, she actually listed both.
00:49:34
Speaker
She actually had two columns running for the two different, um, because with her being in Ireland, she had, but she has both over there and she listed one column us and one column UK. And it was cheap. It was beautifully done. And I was so excited to see that. And I'm so proud of her for that. And that was like, I love.
00:49:52
Speaker
I love the accessibility. Yeah. Talk. I was going to say that talk about a truly accessible pattern because no matter where you buy it, you're going to be able to follow what's comfortable for you. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than having to learn that difference. Yeah. Cause I, I can, I can see where, if I were working from a UK.
00:50:16
Speaker
based pattern that I might even want to sit down and rewrite it in in US terminology just so that my brain knew where it was going because well I would say you say you're a baby knitter I'm kind of a baby crochet or even though I've done it almost as long as I've knit but I haven't learned the techniques as well. Yeah and um I believe
00:50:43
Speaker
and this is not a pain to endorsement by any stretch of the imagination. I believe that the platform riddler will actually convert the pattern from one terminology to the other. I'm not a hundred percent on that, but I believe I remember seeing that in their stuff somewhere along the way.
00:51:10
Speaker
that that was something that they were very proud of. And I thought that was a really cool detail that they were going to be doing. So yeah, that's awesome. That is definitely you're talking about you're talking about interesting pattern. I think I think I remember seeing that somewhere. That's cool. But I'm pretty pretty confident. Yeah, because riddler it it when you buy a pattern on riddler, it actually is kind of it stays within their platform.
00:51:38
Speaker
You're not actually downloading it as a PDF. Correct. Yeah. They have everything within their platform. Everything stays there. And so you can go through and you can mark off the throw you're on and you can go through and you can mark off whatever. And it changed. If I remember and y'all don't quote me on this, you're going to have to look into it yourself. But, um, I believe that they changed the language and will change the terminology to your home preferred.
00:52:08
Speaker
Now it may not be grammatically correct, but because I believe Riblur is a UK based platform that is accessible to both UK and US makers. And that's one of their things. So I thought that was a really cool thing. Yeah, totally cool.
00:52:29
Speaker
Well, one last question from me as a non-crochet expert. How do you count gauge in your patterns? It still stitches in rows. It still stitches in rows. It's very similar to stitches in rows. We count the center of the stitch where the actual stitch is, not across the top, but the actual stitch itself.
Counting Gauge in Crochet
00:52:56
Speaker
Because the way that this, the completion of the yarn over the last yarn over completion actually carries to the next stitch. So we count the body of the stitch itself, but it's still, it's still stitches and rows, just like it is a knitting. It just, you count the middle of the stitch, not the top of the stitch.
00:53:15
Speaker
But in counting stitches for a row, I know there's a couple of different ways. If you're actually manipulating a pattern and putting it together, there's a question sometimes as to whether you're counting the chains that you do at the beginning to start a row, whether that's counted as a stitch or not. Correct. So that's not necessarily gauge as towards stitch totals.
00:53:44
Speaker
on her row because the turning chains actually create the height at the beginning to allow the row to grow as it needs to. So like a single crochet gets one chain, a double crochet will get two to three chains depending on who it is. Depending on the maker, there may or may not be one or two gives on a non-tested pattern.
00:54:13
Speaker
And I'm going to clarify non-tested pattern because if you're testing, you need to make sure you're following the pattern as it is written by your designer so that you can give them clear feedback to make sure it's being tested and comes out as it should. If you're just making it to make it on your own.
00:54:31
Speaker
Um, then yeah, I, if I'm making a garment for me and it is already published, it's out there, I've paid for it. I use two chains for my double crochet because my chains have a tendency to be just a slight bit taller than most people. Um, but if I'm testing a garment and they say chain three, I chain three and I go with my double that way.
00:54:52
Speaker
Okay. Um, and that's knowing there is, there is a question about whether that stitches that is counted as a stitch. And is that something as a tech editor that you look at and say, are they being consistent with whether they counted or not? Are they listing whether they counted or not? And that has, and that's one of those things as an editor, they need to, I look forward being listed in the notes section, um, and, or.
00:55:17
Speaker
And I say and or because some designers do both and sometimes some designers do one or the other. I look for it being listed somewhere that the turning chains do or do not count. And some designers will list it in the notes section that some turning chains count, some turning chains don't. It will be listed in the pattern. Some designers listed straight off in the notes section.
00:55:42
Speaker
all turning chains count as stitches or none of the turning chains count. And then some of them put it in the pattern and that's only where they put it is chain three, all turning chains do not count or chain three, all turning chains do count. So that does need to be listed somewhere because that goes against your stitch count at the end because if you do not specify whether it counts or does not count, then that goes against the stitch total and you may be offered
00:56:12
Speaker
you know, a full stitch and you're going to make somebody crazy going, where am I missing my stitch? I've accounted for every stitch. Well, if you're turning chain, if you don't list it, then they're going to make them so crazy trying to figure it out. Well, I know that when I was learning to grade, there was a crochet designer talking about grading crochet designs.
00:56:34
Speaker
And that was one of the things that she talked about was the fact that whether or not that is counted as a stitch can affect how it's graded. And so I was like, Oh, I never thought about that.
00:56:49
Speaker
I wouldn't have thought about that either. Clearly I don't grade. Um, it's on my wish list, but I haven't, I haven't gotten into it yet. So that's the deal though. Yeah. So it, it was an interesting little thing that kind of stuck in the back of my head because like I said, I do have a bucket list item of making a crocheted garment.
00:57:11
Speaker
I haven't found the one I want to make yet, although I, I, I've seen one pattern that I'm really close to choosing. It's a, it's a cardigan that Denise actually showed to me and I went, Oh, that is really cool. But as a result, I'm not as familiar with that kind of thing. And, and so it, it just kind of stuck in the back of my head. Yeah, no, that's it. And that's a very valid thing that I, it is actually on my checklist.
00:57:41
Speaker
of things that I look for when I'm editing of do turning chains count or do they not? And that's something that I specifically look for. And if it's not listed anywhere, I ask, you know, that's one of those notes I throw up there on the notes section is do turning chains count? Do they not? Right. So, yes. Right. Okay. So I actually have a quick question for you from the crocheter to the knitter.
00:58:10
Speaker
And this is something that I was thinking about as we were talking about this is to do y'all. And I don't, again, I don't, baby, they're only looked at a couple patterns. Do y'all list your increases and decreases in a special way when you're writing patterns. So like typically in crochet, we list increases on the front of the stitch and then
00:58:39
Speaker
Um, well, let me rephrase this. It's not increases and decreases. It's increases in standard number of stitches. So like, if, if I want you to increase three stitches in the same space, I, we would put three single, three and then the, the stitch. So like three single crochets. Whereas if I want you to stitch one stitch in the next three stitches, it would be single crochet three. Does that make sense?
00:59:08
Speaker
I think so. Single crochet three, you're doing just three stitches. Correct. And those stitches are all done based on the stitches down below. Correct. One stitch per matching stitch. But the other way you've said it was single crochet. You put three stitches into one stitch. Right. You would increase, you would increase three to three to one.
00:59:36
Speaker
Well, in knitting, it's a little different in the fact that it's which increase or which decrease are you doing? And so the abbreviation itself tells you, are you doing three into one, or two into one, or are you
00:59:59
Speaker
increasing by knitting two stitches into the same stitch. It's based on the abbreviation and the stitch you're doing. So the SSK, right? The SSK is a right-leaning decrease. Okay. No, it's a left-leaning decrease. I'm sorry. Which the SSK, you have moved
01:00:30
Speaker
You're knitting two stitches together, but how you're doing it puts the right hand stitch on top of the left hand stitch, which makes that lean to the left. A knit two together does the exact opposite. It knits the two stitches so that the left hand stitches on top and so it leans to the right.
01:00:54
Speaker
So how are our decreases and increases are specified is by telling them what stitch to accomplish and where. A make one is usually interpreted. And I'm going to say right now, this is a big bone of mine. I think there is a big problem with the way we designate the make one in knitting because a make one is
01:01:24
Speaker
understood to be lift the bar in between the two next, the two stitches. So you've knit one stitch, you've got a stitch on the left-hand needle. You're going to lift that thread that connected the one on the left stitch to the needle, to the previous stitch, and you're going to increase with that bar. Now in
01:01:51
Speaker
In years past, that make one was not accomplished in that bar. That was a lifted make one. Okay.
01:02:09
Speaker
So today we use make one to designate the bar when it shouldn't be it because you're lifting a new stitch from thread that's down below instead of making one in a stitch that's already existing. But it's, to me, it's, I'm not being very clear here. Um, forgive me. I've not been sleeping real well, but look up the difference between a make one
01:02:39
Speaker
Like knit front back is, you know, it tells you that you're increasing by knitting the front and the back of the stitch. And the abbreviation knit front back itself is telling when you give the definition of what a knit front back is, you're saying knit in the front of the stitch and without moving, removing it from the left hand needle, knit into the back of the stitch and then remove it from the left hand needle.
01:03:06
Speaker
So it's telling you automatically by the way you give the direction, you are increasing, you are taking that one stitch and turning it into two and this is how you're going to do it.
Instructions for Increases and Decreases
01:03:17
Speaker
Same with your decreases, you're taking however many stitches and turning them into one stitch. Now, I can get into a long discussion about you can also do three to two and you can also do four.
01:03:36
Speaker
But look at your abbreviations list because they're going to define whatever that
01:03:45
Speaker
They're going to give you the letter abbreviation, the KFB means knit front back. They're going to say KFB. They're going to say it means knit front back. And they should tell you that you're going to knit into the front of the stitch, leaving it on the left-hand needle. Then you're going to knit into the back of the stitch and remove it from the left-hand needle.
01:04:08
Speaker
turning one stitch into two. They should give that instruction. However, a lot of patterns you see will just give you KFB means knit front back and they don't go further and give you the actual method, the tutorial. And that may be just because some makers are, you know, they have a preferred way of
01:04:35
Speaker
doing it, I guess, but I can't imagine that there's more than one way to do a knit front back. There's no more ways to do a knit front back, but there are multiple ways to do an SSK. Yeah. Some of them are right and some of them are wrong. Elizabeth Zimmerman was the knitting guru, right? She was like the person who made knitting a thing in the 70s.
01:05:03
Speaker
And she decided that the SSK didn't look right and she tried to fix it by doing it a different way. It doesn't fix it. It just changes the way it looks. And so there's now like
01:05:21
Speaker
probably 10 different ways or six different ways to do an SSK. So you need to clarify which way you're going to do it. Twist the stitches correctly and some of them don't. So you need to specify in your pattern what way you did it, even if your knitter doesn't follow that, just so that they know how that to get the same look you got, do it this way. That makes sense. Same thing.
01:05:50
Speaker
So yeah. Interesting. So it's not that there are different ways to, there's different ways to write it, but it's in terms of which? The actual abbreviation you use. The actual abbreviation you use, the actual method you use to do it.
01:06:08
Speaker
which is different than us because we list the number at the front, unless it's specified elsewhere, whether it's in the notes section, the abbreviation section, the special section, you know, special stitches section. Typically the number at the front lists how many stitches you're going to put into the next spot. And then you go, you know, then you keep going. And then the number behind the stitch is you put one stitch in the next X amount of stitches.
01:06:35
Speaker
Interesting. Well, this has been a very insightful conversation. It really has, actually. And quite frankly, what I thought was going to be a short episode is now run over anymore. Yeah, it did not turn into the short episode. We thought this was going to be. Y'all, we talked about this before we started recording. We're like, oh, we're just going to go over the questions. This is going to be a short episode. Looking at the time chart right now, we're at an hour five.
01:07:05
Speaker
This definitely did not turn into the short episode that we were anticipating. But you know what? It has been a learning experience, which is not a bad thing for either of us. And for those who cross crafts, I would be interested in their feedback to see what they think and what we missed. Yes, definitely. And for anybody who does cross crafts, hit either one of us up or hit the Facebook group or Ravelry group up.
Engaging with the Podcast
01:07:35
Speaker
and let us know what our thoughts are between the cross crafts and what we should talk about next because, you know, yeah, clearly there's a lot of differences between the crafts that
01:07:48
Speaker
Even as baby sitchers on the other craft, we don't necessarily think about. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, and Tiffany's right. I would love it if you guys would start conversations in our groups, either the Ravelry or the Facebook group. Or you can always email us, as I say at the end of every episode, at knitdesignedit at gmail.com.
01:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, or catch us on our individual emails or Instagrams. And I did want to go back and clarify the three part posts that you did comparing UK and US was on your Instagram account. They were on my Instagram account. They were actually in the newsletter as well. They are, I believe I got them listed on my blog on my website.
01:08:44
Speaker
The Instagram links will be in the show notes. I will try to find the blog links to send to you as well. Wonderful. But the Instagram links will definitely be in the show notes for anybody who wants to check it out. I'm going to have to spend some time there.
01:09:03
Speaker
You know, next month I'm going to be, you're going to have some downtime. Well, I can learn people. I'm saying next month, actually it will be the month. This episode airs. I will be down for the count for an undetermined period of time. So you'll hear more about that soon. You'll be better. So that's fine.
01:09:25
Speaker
Well, I hate to do this, my love, but I have to run. I have things to do. And don't we all places to be so this was actually this was very, very, very educational. I'm glad we y'all hit us up with ideas so that we can do this again, because I think I think more than one person is going to be learning from this episode, including us. Oh, definitely. Love you. Love you. Be good.
01:09:51
Speaker
Come back next time when Denise and I talk with Lilly Chin, knit and crochet designer and teacher.
01:10:02
Speaker
Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you listen and join the conversation in our Ravelry or Facebook groups. For show notes or knit tech editing and related services, please visit my website at arcticedits.com. To inquire about crochet tech editing and other services Tiffany provides, please go to wootgraphs.com.