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Episode 33: Grading Myths
197 Plays1 year ago
Nicky and I chat about Grading, history, how-to’s, and the things we can’t do. For even more on grading, listen to Episode 7.
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Transcript
Introduction to Craft Design, Edit, Sleep, Repeat
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to Craft Design, Edit, Sleep, Repeat with hosts Lisa Conway and Nikki Jensen. Listen as we take a deep dive into the business of fiber craft design.
Weather Impact on Fires and Smoke
00:00:38
Speaker
Hey, Nikki. Hi, Lisa. How are you? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm good. I wish it would quit raining. Oh, it's raining here too. It's been raining here for days. We've had a couple of really beautiful days, but for the most part we've had rain since like the first part of May, which is great from the standpoint that we're not having any fires. I haven't heard of a single solitary fire.
00:01:09
Speaker
But yeah, it's like this is supposed to be our pretty time of year. Yeah, we're getting a lot of rain right now too, but we're getting the smoke air quality warnings again this week. Are you? Yeah, those fires are just nasty.
00:01:32
Speaker
And it seems like almost all of Canada is on fire. Well, you know, and last year it was Spain and California. Yeah.
00:01:45
Speaker
Well, I mean, it's a little less surprising in hot places. Canada is the last place you expect to be on fire, but here we are. Well, but it's been so dry. And if you think about it, the temperatures that they had in British Columbia wasn't last summer. Was it the summer before they got over 100 degrees Fahrenheit?
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, Canada does get hot. The last day of May was, well, it was 30 degrees Celsius. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but it's hot. That's hot. That's like 85 to 90, somewhere in there, I think. Yeah, it's hot. It's hot. I didn't like it much.
Nikki's New Design Project
00:02:30
Speaker
Meanwhile, I'm still working on the same cabled wool sweater from January, and I'm like, it's too hot.
00:02:42
Speaker
I'm so sick of it. What are you working on? Well, actually, I just started a new design I had.
00:02:52
Speaker
an epiphany as I was waking up Saturday morning with some double knitting and a new technique that was released by the socmetician, Nathan Taylor, the double knitted brioche. And it's going to have a color work simulated cable in the double knitting. And then there's going to be cables in the brioche sections as well.
00:03:19
Speaker
So yeah, it's going to be different. It's going to be a bunch of new techniques for people because it uses the, I think in some circles it's called the tubular cast on, but for Nathan he usually calls it the invisible two-color cast on.
00:03:42
Speaker
And then there's going to be the double-knitted brioche, which it is right now. The only patterns out there are Nathan's, the ones that he included in his books. And then, of course, in our next episode, we are talking with Wolf Graf, and he has created a double-knitted brioche, or poncho, that he's going to be releasing at some point.
00:04:10
Speaker
I know he's working on the pattern. I know he has a tech editor hired for it. But it hasn't quite been released yet. So yeah, I just started the sample the last couple of days. And of course, I spent two days this weekend doing the proof of concept. Concept. Concept. Thank you. My teeth got in the way of what I was saying.
00:04:38
Speaker
proof of concept swatches and that sort of thing. So I just got it cast on. I've just got the first few rows done, rounds done, because it is done in the round. And I am just getting ready to start the first round with cables. Nice. I'm looking forward to seeing this and I'm
00:05:04
Speaker
I'm mostly looking forward to seeing what the instructions look like because this is something totally new and foreign to me. And there's going to be quite an instruction page included in it. Yeah, because these are techniques that aren't familiar to people. And while Nathan has videos out there, they're linked to his book. So I may end up having to do my own videos.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah, I was gonna say, I guess if people need instructions, Nathan's got that 400 page ebook all about it. Yes, yes. And you know, if you stop and think about what he's charging for that ebook, it is a pittance.
00:05:44
Speaker
I know I was surprised. This is not an ad by the way. No, it's not. He's just a friend, guys. He really is just a friend. We're not getting any money for this.
Exploring Nathan Taylor's Techniques
00:05:56
Speaker
Maybe we should be. Yeah, maybe we should. But it's when you stop and think that every technique has a QR code or click to a video.
00:06:11
Speaker
as well as complete photographs and step-by-step instructions within the book. And all of the techniques used in each pattern in the book are linked, so if you need a refresher on the cast on, for example, you just click the link and it takes you directly to that page.
00:06:32
Speaker
So it really is, he put a lot of blood sweat and tears into this book for only charging 25 pounds. You know, we all kept saying, but Nathan, you really should be charging more for this. And he says, no, because I don't want to make it out of people's reach.
00:06:49
Speaker
And he also really encourages people to come up with their own ideas on both how to do things, if they can see another way to do it. He loves that. He also really is hopeful that people will start writing patterns with the technique because it does look different than regular brioche.
00:07:12
Speaker
Did you find the techniques easy to learn? It is. It is very easy to learn. Now he uses a two handed technique and I played with his method of holding a yarn in each hand. But my right hand is absolutely horrible for tensioning. I don't know what it is because for years and years and years I was a thrower.
00:07:37
Speaker
And it's only been the last 15 or so years that I started knitting continental. But my right hand just does not match the tensioning of the left at all. So then I tried it both yarns in my left hand, and I didn't like that because the yarn overs were challenging for me. You have to really pick with the needle a lot, so there's a lot of wrist movement.
00:08:04
Speaker
So I switched to Portuguese, where I am tensioning with both hands, I am using both hands. But I'm holding, I've got the added tension from the knitting pins, and that is working beautifully for me.
00:08:20
Speaker
So I may, even though Nathan might be willing to let me link to his videos, I might do my own anyway so that I can show my techniques and how I'm using the Portuguese style to make it work for me. It would be something a little different. Yeah. Well, I mean, the fact that you've, you've knit how many
00:08:44
Speaker
How many patterns in in this brand new technique and you're already comfortable designing your own actually all I did was a swatch that was about oh maybe six eight inches wide and about five inches tall and Then you know, I included like the the increase I practiced the increase. I haven't even practiced decreases yet. I
00:09:11
Speaker
And the decreases are actually apparently the more challenging part of it. But this cowl isn't going to have any of those. And the cables in the double-knitted brioche are like doing reversible cables where you do the rib because
00:09:33
Speaker
That way they look the same on both sides, right? Because you've got the knit purl and where in a reversible cable that knit purl kind of pulls together, so all you really see is the knit stitch on each side. The brioche stays open a little bit, but also you see the same thing on both sides.
00:09:54
Speaker
And one of Nathan's things about this technique is the fact that he worked really hard to make both sides the same. And in traditional brioche, if you look carefully, the back side is not exactly the same as the front because the way the yarn over follows the stitches. When you do your increases and decreases, there's color blips.
00:10:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So he has worked really hard to eliminate almost all of that there's there are still some techniques he admits is not 100% reversible. But the whole goal was to make it 100% reversible while you while doing what he originally called one pass brioche.
00:10:47
Speaker
On his YouTube channel, there's actually already an old video of him doing one-pass brioche. He even, a long time ago, created a one-pass brioche scarf that is already available online. But when talking with Nancy Marchant, he discovered that the technique he was using created a slightly different fabric.
00:11:14
Speaker
And so he set out on a path to make it wholly reversible. And that's where this came from. So it's really cool. Really, really cool. Oh, I had been thinking that you had already knit something in double knitted brioche, but then I remembered you were talking about knitting something in.
00:11:31
Speaker
triple knitting. And that was where I got it. I know it's something I've never done. Yes. It was the triple knitted Argyle cowl with the Latvian braids. That was also a brand new technique. And I honestly would have to say that was a little bit more challenging, even with all of my years of knitting, which is like 50 ish.
00:11:55
Speaker
ears now that that was a little bit harder not to pick up the how to create the stitches that's that's easy it's just a knit knit purl or
00:12:11
Speaker
knit purl purl, depending on whether you're doing it flat or in the round with your three colors. But there was a period at the beginning where I found it more challenging to read my knitting.
00:12:27
Speaker
And to be able to pick up my knitting and automatically say, okay, this is the stitches on the needles. This is the next stitches that need to be done. And that caused some issues with the colors.
00:12:44
Speaker
being in the right places and things like that. And that was the part of that that was challenging, even though Latvian braid was not all that challenging once I got to that part because it was so very well explained in the pattern. But yeah, I've been doing a lot of new techniques this year.
00:13:06
Speaker
going through a spurt of that, which happens every once in a while anyway. Well, that's the wonderful thing about knitting. There's always more to learn, isn't there? Yes, even after 50 years. You can do it for 50 years, yeah. Even after 50 years, there's lots to learn.
Challenges in Grading and Sizing
00:13:22
Speaker
And that brings me to today's actual topic, now that we're like almost 15 minutes in.
00:13:30
Speaker
And we've just chatted about projects. I want to talk today, we've touched on, and I've touched on over and over, things that can't be done with grading. And so I wanted to really dive deeper into what grading is and
00:13:51
Speaker
Why a pattern, why you can't pick up a pattern? Figure out your size, knit that size, and have it fit perfectly. Right? Because it all boils down to the grading. Right? So do me a favor and explain to our listeners what grading is. Oh, boy. Where do I begin? Grading?
00:14:19
Speaker
Um, is, is taking, I mean, what I do when I grade a pattern for someone is they give me the pattern written in one size. Um, usually it's to, it's, it's to fit whoever their fit model is quite often it's their own body. And based on the measurements of that size, I.
00:14:49
Speaker
add the stitch counts and measurements for a whole range of sizes. So if I've knit a sweater for myself with say a 36 inch chest, then I'm going to try to get a 32 inch chest, a 40 inch chest and so on. But I also have to be mindful that
00:15:17
Speaker
each body point is also going to change in size and not by the same amount. And that's where it gets really sticky because just because the chest got four inches larger, that doesn't mean the shoulders got four inches larger. That doesn't mean the length got four inches longer. So we use standard sizing charts for the most part.
00:15:46
Speaker
to figure out what the proportion for each body point is going to be. Right. So I'm going to give my quick answer. You gave the nice long one. That was great. We can put me on the spot. I'm sorry about that. No, this is supposed to be a conversation. I know.
00:16:09
Speaker
I pulled it out. What's really funny is I will get asked, well, are you retired or do you still work? Because I'm older folks, let's face it, I've been knitting for 50 years. And I am actually approaching senior citizen age, right? I'm over 60.
00:16:31
Speaker
So I will get asked that and I'll say, yeah, I actually work for myself. I am a, quote, fiber-related technical editor. And people will look at me and say, huh? And I say, I edit knitting patterns, articles, and class handouts, which is the articles and class handouts don't get talked about as much.
00:16:57
Speaker
We do a lot of patterns. We don't talk about those other things. But I do also teach knitting, so Nikki has edited class handouts for me. And I do it for others.
00:17:12
Speaker
I also look at weaving and spinning articles and teaching handouts and that sort of thing. So I edit a broader range. So that's why you're saying fiber related rather than yarn craft. I typically go with yarn craft because I just do knitting and crochet. Right. Right. And I do
00:17:37
Speaker
some work with spinners. So yes, I do expand it to the word fiber. And then I say, and I also do the grading required to take one size pattern and make it multiple sizes. So the short answer is we take a pattern that's written in one size and make it multiple sizes, whether that's bigger or smaller.
00:18:03
Speaker
And in this day and age, we're asked to take those patterns to a very wide range, oftentimes as many as 10 sizes, which, believe me, is a challenge. Because let's face it, the proportions on a quadruple X-sized body are not the same as the extra, extra small. Yeah. They just aren't.
00:18:33
Speaker
And you know it's going to be a designer with an extra, extra small fit model that's asking you for 10, 12 sizes. Yeah, that is really challenging because it is way easier if they use a middle of the road size as their sample to take those fit sizes up and down instead of just in one direction.
00:18:58
Speaker
Because the farther away from you get from the sample, the harder it is to match how that's going to look on the body because that is the key, right? We're not just taking it to another size, we're taking it to another size and trying to make it still look like it fits that body the same as it does the sample body.
00:19:24
Speaker
And that's where things get challenging. When, I don't know, did you take the course at the Tech Editor Hub? Yes, I did. And at that time, did they have the section on history of grading?
00:19:39
Speaker
Yes, they did.
History of Grading and Standard Sizing
00:19:41
Speaker
Okay. So you, because I found that part really fascinating because we don't think about something that happens every single day, right? Clothing manufacturers across the world use grading all the time. And each, but each clothing manufacturer uses their own grading charts. That's why you can buy a pair of jeans, a pair of Wrangler jeans, right?
00:20:10
Speaker
and the old navy jeans don't fit. They're sized differently. But the history is really fascinating because we really didn't get into grading until the early 20th century. Prior to that, clothing was not manufactured to be sold as a finished object off the rack.
00:20:38
Speaker
Right. You either bought fabric and made your own or made your own fabric and made your own or, you know, you went to a tailor. Right.
00:20:53
Speaker
And so everything was made to fit that specific body. And prior to the early 1900s, it wasn't even made to fit that body as it is now, but to fit the body as it was going to change as well.
00:21:15
Speaker
You look at clothing history. Let's talk about the dress history. Dresses weren't actually dresses that were all one piece. There was a bodice. There was a skirt. There may even be sleeves that were
00:21:39
Speaker
tied or attached to the bodice separately. Oh yes, I've seen that in Oatlander. That was common and it was common because those fit areas around the arms in particular are really challenging.
00:22:02
Speaker
to get fabric that moves correctly, that doesn't bunch in the wrong places,
00:22:10
Speaker
doesn't rip out when you are doing hard labor, right? Right. When you have synthetic stretchy fabrics like we have today. Exactly. So garments were constructed in in terms of the piece and how it would fit the body at that location rather than
00:22:35
Speaker
fitting appropriately across the shoulders and the length of the shoulder to the waist and from the waist to the length of the skirt or what have you, they were constructed in a way that each piece could be made to measure in a way that you could move appropriately for the kind of labor you were going to be engaged in.
00:22:59
Speaker
And there was a lot of draping of fabric. You get into the privileged class, you would see layers. And some of those layers were just pieces of fabric that were draped over the body rather than actually stitched in any form.
00:23:25
Speaker
So grading is very new, right? And it was actually started, the whole idea of trying to figure out standard sizing was actually started by the military.
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. Because they had to make uniforms for, you know, we reached in the early 20th century a point where our military was providing uniforms instead of each person having to provide their own.
00:23:57
Speaker
and you can't measure everybody. No, you can't. So they, the military actually started doing tests, you know, size tests, measuring bodies and came up with a range of sizes they felt would fit the most people. But even at that point, there was usually a tailor around that nipped and tucked in and fit it to the individual.
00:24:28
Speaker
Yeah. Right. So there's this myth that when we grade a pattern, we can grade it so that it fits anybody. Well, in my personal experience, that is certainly not the case. Um, I'm five foot two and I take off the rack clothes to my seamstress all the time for alterations because that's the only way things are going to fit me properly.
00:24:58
Speaker
You know, especially now today, like high rise pants are, you know, I bought a pair of pants at a boutique and I brought them home and I pulled them up and for the rise to sit where it should, the waist was up to my armpits. And my friend owns the boutique, so I sent her a picture of this. She goes, don't wear them like that.
00:25:27
Speaker
Like I know, but that's how they fit. And really five foot two is, while it's on the shorter side of the scale, to me, it doesn't seem that short because I'm only five four, but the same pair of pants would probably have fit more appropriately on my body. I still have trouble. They must have a short torso, I guess. Here's the thing that I laugh about. I'm five four. I'm a very average height.
00:25:57
Speaker
And yet, in certain brands, I have to buy the petites, or the lengths of the legs are so ridiculously long.
00:26:08
Speaker
And that didn't start happening until probably the last 10, 15 years that I noticed that the sizes were actually long enough. Prior to that, they wouldn't have been. So they're making the supposed short legged pants longer than they used to. So even those probably are too long. Yeah. Well, that pair of pants that I was talking about,
00:26:37
Speaker
I got her to shorten the rise, but I also had to get the hem raised, I think another six inches for them to fit me the way they fit the model because I figure the model's probably at least five eight. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. That is crazy that you have that much taken out. I don't consider myself to be like extremely short. I would say I'm
00:27:03
Speaker
average for a short person. So average for petite sizes, but petite sizes can be hard to come by too. Yes. Yes. I have a five foot daughter who was absolutely ecstatic the day that they measured her and she had reached five feet.
00:27:22
Speaker
That is, that is a landmark. I remember that day myself. Well, she had been at four foot, 11 and a half for the, for like three years. And it, it, it, they had figured she was never going to grow anymore, but that was where she was going to be. And lo and behold, she actually ended up growing another half inch, which was really crazy. But yeah. So the idea though, that we can.
00:27:53
Speaker
custom fit for everybody, just it doesn't happen. So the question I have now is, so how do we come up with the sizes, right, that
00:28:09
Speaker
create these multiple size patterns. We use size charts. And Nikki, I'm going to ask you to explain to people what size charts are, where they come from, what you might see on them, that sort of thing. Well, a size chart, as it sounds, is a chart with measurements for a
00:28:33
Speaker
for a range of sizes and within the range of sizes there are several body points and measurements for each. So it might start with the chest circumference, the very basics would have
00:28:52
Speaker
the depth of the armhole, the length of the sleeve, the width of the shoulders, and that sort of thing. It's quite typical to see each size is based around the chest circumference and in the world of yarn craft patterns, each size will be graded in equal increments, which is different from sewing, I understand.
00:29:22
Speaker
So for example, you will often see sizes that are either two inches apart or four inches apart at the chest. But the increment will be, I think I said earlier, different at different body points based on average body proportions. So there are many different charts that designers will use or that you can access yourself. And they'll have different body points included.
00:29:52
Speaker
So you can really choose one that has what you need for the design that you're working on. For example, in children's designs or very simple garments, the craft yarn council charts tend to be very commonly used. They might have all the measurements you need for something simple, but there are a lot of measurements that I use all the time in grading that aren't included, things like wrist circumference,
00:30:21
Speaker
front chest with neck base. And of course the lower body is not included at all. So if you're doing a lower body garment like those shorts we were working on, you'll need a different chart.
00:30:36
Speaker
and a whole different set of measurements. I tend to like to use the ASTM charts for these. Those are not a free chart, but they have a huge number of body points and different body types.
00:30:53
Speaker
I'm curious about something here. How long have you had the ASTM charts? Because in the last year or two, they have changed them and they've removed some points, as I've been told. Oh, that's interesting. I'll have to look back and see. I got them, I think a couple of years ago.
00:31:14
Speaker
So yeah, I actually, I would be curious to look at the update. I was taking Jill Wolcott's grading class and a question came up and when we got to researching it, you couldn't get the same charts that she used.
00:31:33
Speaker
Oh. And some of the body points had been dropped because they felt like, I don't know whether they felt people weren't buying those charts. Oh. So they've reduced the number of charts available and what's on them, which is really sad. Really, really sad. Because it's the best, they are the best available. They're the most complete that I have seen. Yes.
00:32:04
Speaker
But a limitation of these sizing charts is that they only account for a small number of different types of bodies. They have a men's chart, they have a women's chart, they have a child chart, but there's a lot of variation in bodies within these categories. For example, different sizes of breasts.
00:32:33
Speaker
Some charts do account for that. Kim McBrien Evans has created a chart that includes, I believe, three different cup sizes and even makes recommendations for which cup size is considered average relative to the chest size that you're looking at. So that's a great one if you're
00:32:56
Speaker
If you're looking for a very close fitting top for people with breasts, that might be a way to make it fit more people with different body types. I hadn't heard of that one. I'll have to look that one up.
Innovative Sizing Charts
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's relatively new-ish. I think it came out
00:33:27
Speaker
maybe um maybe a year or two ago um it was published in digits and threads but i believe it's also on on her website i'll get the link in the show notes for sure okay it's a good one um she actually she compiled
00:33:46
Speaker
a variety of different sizing charts that were already available. She used feedback on her own designs and she also created a survey to be able to compile more measurements to be able to get something that was more reflective of the people who were knitting her patterns.
00:34:10
Speaker
Yeah, so that one's definitely worth a look if you're a grading nerd like you and I are. And like Kim, you may find that the more you practice grading, you might want to create your own custom chart, which is totally something that people do. And you might find that your fit model has
00:34:39
Speaker
doesn't fit into one of the standard sizes and you might need to make adjustments to your chart based on that.
00:34:47
Speaker
Well, and I know there are designers out there that I've seen, and I've not met this person. But I really have a lot of respect for Victoria Marchant and what she's doing for the large-bodied knitter. Because she is, I don't know how she's doing her size charts, but I do know that she's creating patterns that are customizable for the bigger woman.
00:35:16
Speaker
And I have a lot of respect for what she's doing because I know it's not easy. It's just, you know, it's a huge challenge. And, you know, like you, like you said, it's not really possible to grade for every
00:35:38
Speaker
body, but we can find ways to improve our instructions for people to be able to make things their own, make things fit the way that they want it to fit, or at least
00:35:55
Speaker
to be able to tell whether it's going to fit them the way they want it to and if not maybe they have to pass on that pattern or come up with their own way of doing things to get the best fit. And so that brings me to the next thing I want to say is that there's certain math
00:36:19
Speaker
that if you really want to knit, especially garments, that you just have to know.
Importance of Gauge in Knitting
00:36:28
Speaker
And my first one is the one that you hear so many people go on about and so many people hate doing. And that's understanding the gauge and the gauge swatch. Ah, the gauge. Yes. And every,
00:36:50
Speaker
almost every pattern I edit and probably at least 90% of patterns I grade, we end up rechecking the gauge multiple times because it's so finicky and it's so challenging to get a consistent read on it. And that's because knit fabric or crocheted fabric, it's
00:37:19
Speaker
It's not stiff, it moves, it stretches, it wants to do its own thing. The cotton shorts, oh my god. Cotton, cotton! I'm gonna stop, I'm gonna just start saying no.
00:37:38
Speaker
to grading things that are knit and cotton. No, thank you. I don't need this kind of drama in my life. Honestly, it's well, I mean, because cotton yarn, it doesn't really have memory. So, you know, once you wash it, it grows, it stretches, you put it on your body, it droops.
00:38:07
Speaker
And so based on whether your piece has just come off the blocking mats or whether it's just come off your body, it's going to measure a totally different gauge. That's just a given. So that is a huge challenge in designing because if you if you measure your gauge and you have five stitches per inch, then
00:38:35
Speaker
You know that to make a 40 inch sweater, you're going to need 200 stitches. But if you put that shirt on and you take it off and now you have four stitches per inch, well, how big is 200 stitches going to be? It's going to be totally different. So that, that is why gauge.
00:38:57
Speaker
is so important and so challenging. But as a knitter, if you understand what the role gauge plays, right?
00:39:12
Speaker
If you knit your gauge swatch like you should, which I'm going to admit people, I do the minimum most of the time. That's one reason I have not designed a garment yet. I've got one that I'm supposed to be designing.
00:39:35
Speaker
Can't wait to see it, Lisa. Well, the gauge swatch for that, I ended up knitting an actual cowl.
00:39:43
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's one way to do it. Because it was a color work and I needed to be able to compare the rows, you know, with no color work to the rows with color work and know the different gauges and the different needle sizes and how those played in. So the best and the fact that it's going to be knit in the round, it's going to be knit with steaks planned. It was just the best option because I could knit a nice full cowl.
00:40:14
Speaker
And no, once I had blocked it and everything that I really was going to get a good gauge. And of course I measured gauge both before and after blocking so you can see the difference, you know, all of that. So yeah, that's another thing. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a designer I work with and every time she designs a colorwork sweater, she makes herself a headband first and that's her swatch. But here's a hot tip for you.
00:40:44
Speaker
If you don't like making swatches, you can design a bottom-up sweater and your sleeve can be your swatch.
00:40:55
Speaker
you start the sleeve from the cuff and you knit a few inches and there's your swatch in the round. And you know one of the best parts about that is the fact that when as you're knitting a sleeve and if you wait until you're about halfway up the lower portion of your arm to measure your gauge
00:41:18
Speaker
You're going to relax into it the way you relax into knitting the body of the sweater a little better than you do when you're just knitting a swatch. Yeah. That's why the cowl too, because I knew that I was knitting enough to actually relax into the pattern work the way I would normally.
00:41:41
Speaker
And I wasn't like pulling too tight or worried about pulling too tight, so not pulling tight enough. And those kinds of things. So those little tricks are really helpful. Yeah. And now you got a cute new accessory to keep you warm.
00:41:57
Speaker
Well, somebody does someday when I actually finish the project and hand it out. Did you finish the cowl at least? Oh yeah, the cowl is done. Until the project is done. Right? Oh, I see. You're not going to wear your swatch around the house? No, no, because it's got to be available for the photos.
00:42:18
Speaker
because actually the cowl will be part of the pattern so that others can knit the cowl as their swatch as well. Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah. Start a revolution. Maybe that's my little gift to the knitting world. I don't know. There you go.
00:42:41
Speaker
I think I'm getting tired. Yeah, I hear you. But understanding how those stitches and rows play into the final size of your garment, right? So if the stitch gauge is five stitches per inch in the
00:42:59
Speaker
pattern and you get four and a half. If you go ahead and knit it at the four and a half because you like that fabric, what's that going to do to the size? And how are you going to have to make adjustments for that? That's an important piece of the math to know. Yeah. Right. Well, because to follow that example, four and a half stitches in an inch is going to end up making it bigger.
00:43:27
Speaker
If you use the same number of stitches that's written in the pattern, it's going to be half a stitch per inch bigger. So if you were making a 40 inch sweater and now you have an extra half
00:43:44
Speaker
Oh, no, I'm too tired to work that out. That would be math to write down, but okay. So it is going to end up bigger because you've got half a stitch in an inch.
00:44:07
Speaker
Okay, so I just picked up a calculator. Thank you. So if you're making a 40 inch sweater and the pattern is written at five stitches per inch, you're going to need 200 stitches for a 40 inch circumference. But if you knit 200 stitches at four and a half stitches per inch, it's going to come out 44 and a half inches.
00:44:31
Speaker
Okay. So it's going to come out much larger than you anticipated. Just that half an inch, half a stitch makes a four and a half inch difference in the size. It's a whole size bigger. It is. Or more. Right? Because actually, if they're graded every two inches,
00:44:52
Speaker
that's four and a half inches, that's more than two sizes bigger. So knowing that math, understanding that math is critical to knowing how your project is going to end up and also knowing when you're reading the pattern what adjustments you can make to make it fit you better.
00:45:16
Speaker
Right. Because a lot of times, row gauge is not as important as stitch gauge because links are often adjusted anyway. But if you're doing, if the instructions are written that you're going to decrease every two rows,
00:45:38
Speaker
but your row gauge is bigger than what's written in the pattern, then you may need to decrease more often to be able to get all your decreases in before you reach the length that you need. Yes, exactly. And so row gauge and stitch gauge, we've been just talking stitch gauge, so I'm really glad you brought that up.
00:45:59
Speaker
And if you're doing, let's say you're doing an all over color work. Row gauge becomes much more important. Because you've got the number of rows in each color design, right? Let's talk a fair isle where you've got the rows upon rows of little tiny designs that you're manipulating. Each one of those could either be longer or shorter
00:46:28
Speaker
if your row gauge isn't correct. And that affects the overall fit of the garment.
Color Work and Gauge Challenges
00:46:35
Speaker
So yeah, knowing how your gauge is applied to the garment is the most important math. And it's important to also be aware that in the example of Fair Isle, your gauge may be different
00:46:52
Speaker
in color work than it is in stockinette, even using the same yarn and same needles. Exactly. So if you do your gauge swatch in plain stockinette, you may not still be matching their gauge over the color work. That's why I said for the color work that I'm designing, I did the cowl so that I could measure the difference and know that, okay,
00:47:21
Speaker
went up a needle size to do the color. It's been a while, I'd have to look at my notes. I'm pretty sure it was only one. But to match the stitch gauge, my row gauge was still different, but my stitch gauge, I had to go up a needle size to match the plain stockinette gauge because our color work tends to pull in and make those stitches closer together. It will also make your rows a little taller very often.
00:47:51
Speaker
But at that point, the stitch gauge was more important. And then I had to account for the row gauge in creating the design and how long that stripe of color work was going to be within the garment. And so a color work garment that has plain stockinette and color work should include information on the two different gauges.
00:48:20
Speaker
to make sure that you're getting the appropriate gauge for each section. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's why the cowl, because I felt it was the only way I was going to get both of the numbers accurately for what I was trying to do. Here's one that I love, because I find that there are two very divided camps on this subject.
00:48:50
Speaker
And it is, how do we convert between inches and metric when we're talking about gauge? Yeah, there's very, very much two different camps. And I am in the camp of using the way the gauge reads. So in knitting, do they do the same in crochet where it's four inches, 10 centimeters?
00:49:16
Speaker
Okay, so it would be the same in crochet. See, I told you, I'm not much of a crochet editor. I can do flat stuff. We compare, when we talk gauge, we talk gauge in terms of the number of stitches per four inches,
00:49:35
Speaker
or 10 centimeters. Now, if you compare four inches to 10 centimeters, that's not a direct conversion that goes four inches is 10.18 centimeters.
00:49:49
Speaker
Yes, yes. So in real life, the exact conversion is 2.54 centimeters per inch. But in knitting gauge, it's 2.5. Now, if you use 2.54 to do your math when you're grading on paper, right?
00:50:18
Speaker
And then you ask the knitter to knit it to 10 centimeters, their sizing isn't going to come out right.
00:50:28
Speaker
because they've measured those 20 stitches over 10 centimeters, not 10.18 centimeters. And so their size is going to end up wrong. And I would never ask anyone to try to measure their gauge over 10.18 centimeters. That's just cruel. No kidding.
00:50:52
Speaker
We're not doing it. I will get designers that send me their work and my numbers come up different and then I realize it's because they've done the 2.54 conversion. And because I do work with so many European designers, they've done the conversion from centimeters to inches and that makes all of their inch conversions incorrect.
00:51:17
Speaker
based on the 2.5. And we end up having these conversations back and forth as to why did you do it this way? Some of it washes out in rounding. It sounds so small, but when you get to the higher end of the range of sizes that people typically offer, if you look at
00:51:45
Speaker
a 60 inch chest, for example, and you convert 60 inches times 2.5, you get 150 centimeters. But if you convert 60 inches times 2.54, you get 152.5 centimeters. So that's a difference of two and a half centimeters or a whole inch. So depending on how you've converted,
00:52:15
Speaker
that sweater is gonna be an inch different in size than what the maker is expecting. And that could be a lot. Yeah, it can definitely be a lot, especially when you're talking about a bigger size where they're very conscious of how things lay on their bodies, right? As a larger size woman, you know, I am very aware of how certain
00:52:42
Speaker
knit fabrics in particular drape on my body and how much ease I do or don't want given the design. And so that's a big difference. A whole inch can really change. And let's look at a body point rather than just the chest. Let's talk about the armhole depth.
00:53:07
Speaker
Because if your row gauge is off by that much, and you now have an arm hole that's a whole inch deeper than what it was supposed to be. That's not gonna be comfortable. No, it's gonna make a huge difference in the way that garment moves. And it's going to feel baggy in the wrong places. And I hate that
00:53:36
Speaker
It affects the largest sizes the most because those are the sizes that take the most time to knit and the most yarn to knit
00:53:44
Speaker
And it's important for them to fit as intended because that's a lot of work. Yes. I love that perspective from a smaller human being. It's nice to know that you think of those things. Absolutely. Yeah, because they do. They take so much more. They cost more because they're taking more yarn. They take longer to knit because there's a larger amount of square footage, so to speak, in the garment.
00:54:14
Speaker
And so we need to be conscious of how we do those numbers. And I'm always having that conversation with my clients, especially a new client that is doing garments. Okay, why did you do it that way? I had one client that
00:54:43
Speaker
we work together a lot and then because of my
00:54:49
Speaker
medical issues last year, there was a big break. And when she came back, which I love the fact that she trusts me enough to come back and work with me on a regular basis still, she had started converting with the 2.54. And I said, I'm sure that you used to do it the other way. And she's like, yes, but I just get done working with a magazine and they wanted it done 2.54. And I said, OK.
00:55:18
Speaker
Well, here's my reasons why I would prefer to do it this way. However, it is up to you, right? It's up to the client. They make the final choice. But I highly recommend, and I always send them to the various reading material about that, that I've got a list.
00:55:41
Speaker
And because there's some tech editors out there that have written some really excellent articles on this. And so I send them to those articles so it's not just my voice. And we discuss it. And she was like, oh, yeah, I just I totally forgot. I'm going to leave it like this for this pattern. But for the next one, I'll make sure to go back.
00:56:07
Speaker
But consistent sizing from one pattern to the next is important. And I did mention that to her and I don't know whether in the end she changed it or not.
00:56:18
Speaker
Got it. But I gave her all the numbers in case she wanted to change it. I mean, I did the math and said, okay, these would be the corrections. So you've done your due diligence. Then it's up to her. She's a very prolific designer and I know that she does well.
00:56:40
Speaker
You know, like I said, it was, it was kind of a one-time thing. I was sure she'd always used to use 2.5 and it was like, why did you switch? Oh yeah, I had my spreadsheet set up for it because of the magazine. But you know, the other thing I found and I am
00:57:01
Speaker
really curious about this. So if anybody out there has any information on it, please let me know. I would swear spreadsheet formulas are different coming from other countries, because the rounding function seems to work differently. Even though we're using the exact same formula, or it appears we're using the exact same formula, I will get a different rounded number than they do.
00:57:32
Speaker
Do you use convert, like the convert function? No, I use mround and I do the math. Okay. So I recently learned that you can do convert. You can put in which cell you want to convert and then you can put in inch comma centimeter.
00:57:55
Speaker
and it will do some kind of calculation. But what is it keeping? It's not telling you. I was going to say that's going to be using the 2.54. I think so, yeah. Which, if that's what they're using, would make sense, except that all of them, the ones that I've had this conversation with, no, I use 2.5, but our rounding is coming up different. And it is literally just a rounding issue.
00:58:24
Speaker
And the only other thing I can think of is that if I have rounded from inches to centimeters and they've rounded from centimeters to inches if the rounding is different. Yeah, or perhaps if they've previously rounded
00:58:41
Speaker
at an earlier step and then made a calculation based on a rounded number. That could be too. That could be too. Because I'm only using finished measurements usually. And if they've done it in their grading where they've rounded sooner, I hadn't thought about that one. Thank you. That helps solve the mystery for me in a way. I wanted to ask you about another controversy in grading.
00:59:09
Speaker
I wanted to ask you what is proportional grading or why would we use it or not use it? Okay.
Proportional Grading Issues
00:59:17
Speaker
Proportional grading literally applies. See, I still can't talk, applies the same proportional change to every body part.
00:59:32
Speaker
So if you have a size and rather than going from a 30 to a 32 inch, you're going like 2% or 5% on that chest measurement, they apply that same percentage across the board. Are we talking ease? Like you'd give 5% ease in every size rather than giving
01:00:00
Speaker
An injury in every size? No. Oh, okay. No. You want basically, you pretty much want the same ease in every size.
01:00:10
Speaker
You might alter the ease on the very largest sizes and the very smallest just so that it hangs right on the body. But ease is one of those things you can do the same. What I'm talking about is you take your base measurement and you apply a percentage larger or a percentage lower for the size difference.
01:00:36
Speaker
which can work in one area of the body, the chest, but definitely does not work in, like we said, the armhole, or you were talking about the shoulder width, because just because you are bigger or smaller in the chest does not mean you're bigger or smaller in your shoulder width.
01:00:58
Speaker
No, the size of the increments is not the same over different body points. No, it is not. It can't be. And proportional, there are companies, there are even size charts out there that use proportional changes. That's wild. When I saw your question about
01:01:27
Speaker
proportional grading, I think I was thinking in my head about proportional ease, which you can do in some types of designs, but it's not always appropriate. Okay. And what kinds of designs are appropriate for proportional ease? My understanding is that they most commonly work in oversized, kind of flowy, drapey,
01:01:57
Speaker
sorts of designs. But other than that, like if you're doing a close fitting or even a classic or relaxed type of fit, you want to use the same amount of ease in each size. You don't want to assume that a larger body wants their sweater to be more oversized. If you're showing in the photo
01:02:26
Speaker
only two inches of positive ease, then you want to make two inches of positive ease in every size so that every knitter can look at the photo and say, that's how it's supposed to fit on every size. Right, exactly. And you are, that is very true about the larger, more flowy. You may want less positive ease on a large garment
01:02:56
Speaker
or it becomes so oversized that it's almost uncomfortable to wear and vice versa. If you put too much Positivies on a small garment, it's going to make the poor wearer look like they've disappeared in the garment.
01:03:11
Speaker
So that is where proportional ease works really well versus what I'm talking about is proportional grading, where you apply the same percentage change to every body point. Right. And it just doesn't work. It doesn't work at all. Yeah, yeah, it certainly
01:03:41
Speaker
You do have to, I don't even know how to say it. That just sounds so crazy to me. I haven't actually encountered anyone trying to do proportional grading. Is there a course on that?
01:04:00
Speaker
I know it was a discussion during my grading course at the Tech Editor Hub. In our live sessions, we talked a lot about proportional grading and when it would be appropriate and when it wouldn't be appropriate to use proportional sizing.
01:04:21
Speaker
That's why I wanted to touch on that because, excuse me, because it's a fallacy to believe that you can grade proportionally and still fit everybody. Because, you know, people say, well, can't you just apply this, you know, proportional
01:04:45
Speaker
numbers and make it work. No, you can't because like we said, just because we gain inches in our chest doesn't mean we gain the same inches in our shoulders or in the depth of our arm hole or those places on our body that we need to have better fit. So yeah, it's not as easy as just applying a percentage up or down and making good.
01:05:14
Speaker
No, no there's not a there's not a fixed formula or measurement that you can apply to every point on the body and expect a good fit.
01:05:27
Speaker
It's very dependent on each body point. And that's exactly why we use the sizing charts. I want to touch on really quick the fact that we've talked about sizing charts a number of times. And if you go back to the grading discussion I had with Denise last year, you'll find links to a lot of the free sizing charts as well as to the ASTM.
01:05:52
Speaker
and their sizing charts.
Future of Sizing and Grading
01:05:54
Speaker
I also want to mention that Jill Walcott has been doing a lot of research on sizing charts or on charting sizes.
01:06:03
Speaker
And they're still not public but she does have a group so go to her blog and and Look for the group where she's gained Talking with people about how to improve the sizing charts because that is one thing about Jill that I will talk about every single day is that she's doing a lot of work trying to figure out how to
01:06:33
Speaker
Create sizing in a way that it's more individual in every pattern. I Don't know how well she'll succeed, but she is trying that's commendable. Yeah, I Have you heard of? grading with spreadsheets or Sizing with spreadsheets. Maybe it's called swanky emu knits. No Check out
01:07:01
Speaker
Um, she does have a course on it, but she also has a few published patterns that use this method where you get a spreadsheet that you can plug your measurements into and it will calculate the pattern from your inputted measurements. And I just find that so interesting. Kind of like, uh, now my brain's gone completely blank. Used to do with her size to fit.
01:07:33
Speaker
The person I was trying to think of is Amy Herzog and her custom fit method. Her website is unfortunately no longer available, but I do believe you can still purchase her books.
01:07:47
Speaker
I haven't heard of that one. I'm dying to try this course though. One of my clients has done it and it sounds really, really interesting. Cool. Would you do me a favor and just put that link in the Trello so that I can share it with people because I think that that would be a good one and I'll definitely be looking into it some more. So let me think. I think
01:08:19
Speaker
We covered a lot here we did And talked a lot longer than I expected us to and still managed to get lots of great information out there so if you guys have any questions, please please please you can leave a comment on the show notes on my blog at Arctic edits calm you can join our Facebook group and
01:08:43
Speaker
You can join our Ravelry group and leave comments or questions there. You can email us at knitdesignedit at gmail.com. We would love to hear from you. And I'd like to hear your opinions on some of these things. What do you think about the 2.5 centimeters per inch versus the 2.54? Or what sizing charts have you went across that you really like?
01:09:10
Speaker
Oh, I'm going to mention another one, but it's not a garment. Wooly Wormhead has a fantastic size chart for hats. For hats, yes. That is the gold standard for hats. Yes, it really is. Of course, she's the gold standard for hat patterns too.
01:09:32
Speaker
So, but share with us, let us know what you're thinking. Let us know where you find your information because we can always, we always love learning those new sources, don't we, Nikki?
01:09:45
Speaker
for Socks, Kate Atherley's book. Oh yes. And she's got one for Gloves and Mittens too. And it's fantastic. It's got really great sizing charts in it. Anything from Kate Atherley in regards to that is excellent, excellent, excellent. And I will happily support her all day long. Oh yes. I've got books in my
01:10:11
Speaker
queue of things for my wish list. Oh yes, I have several of her books that's like my required resources. Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely.
01:10:23
Speaker
She's got one on writing patterns, so the human listening is interested in getting started writing patterns. That is probably my number one place to start. The definite gold standard there too, because she...
01:10:43
Speaker
Before I even started tech editing, I bought that book and read it thoroughly. I read it. I read that book cover to cover. Me too. So yeah. And there's a lot of those kinds of books I don't actually read cover to cover. But that one I did. I love that book. Recommend it all the time.
01:11:05
Speaker
All right, Nikki. Well, it's getting late there and it's actually approaching almost, well, I just got word that my husband is headed home. My watch wiggles on my wrist when he texts me to say that he's headed home. So I will talk to you again soon. Everybody have a great day. Thanks. You too, Lisa.
01:11:32
Speaker
Hey, please come join us in our Facebook group and add to the conversation. It's pretty quiet in there and we'd love to hear what you have to say. Join us next time when we talk with Wolf Graf, an extremely talented knitter currently living in Australia.
01:11:54
Speaker
Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you listen and join the conversation in our Ravelry or Facebook groups. For technical editing, find Lisa at arcticedits.com and Nikki at handknitsandyuga.com.