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Episode 31: Editing Out-of-the-box Designs
216 Plays1 year ago
Nicky and I welcome a special guest, Michelle Hazell, a tech editor from the UK. We talked about how we approach the more challenging editing jobs we see and our overall philosophy of working with independent designers.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to Craft, Design, Edit, Sleep, Repeat with hosts Lisa Conway and Nikki Jensen. Listen as we take a deep dive into the business of fibercraft design.
Introducing Michelle Hazel
00:00:38
Speaker
Well, good morning. Good afternoon. We have a very special cast with us today, Nikki. I'd like you to meet Michelle Hazel. Michelle helped me get into tech editing by answering all my questions. And she works with a very dear friend of mine, Nathan Taylor, the socmetician, which is why I've invited her today. Welcome, Michelle. Nice to meet you.
00:01:05
Speaker
Thanks. It's great to be here talking about lots of my favorite things, hopefully.
Role of Tech Editors in Design
00:01:11
Speaker
Well, anytime it's fiber related, we can pretty much talk forever, can't we?
00:01:21
Speaker
So today's topic is how we as tech editors help our designers that think really out of the box. When a designer has a new technique or a new way of construction, how do we help them word it so that others understand?
00:01:41
Speaker
And I've really asked Michelle here because she just edited Nathan's new book on double knitted brioche, which truly is a new technique.
Challenges in Editing New Techniques
00:01:54
Speaker
We can't find any reference to this type of knitting anywhere else. And believe me, we've looked. So Michelle, what's it like editing a book, first of all?
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, books are obviously big. I think you've got the two sides to Nathan's book particularly in that his book is not only a collection of patterns but it's a teaching book, it's a story book and it's got a whole lot of extra to just a collection book if you like.
00:02:36
Speaker
but you've got the whole additional layer of continuity within the book. So a bit like if you were working on a collection for a yarn manufacturer or a particular designer, you've got to keep in mind that things have to be equivalent and consistent and all of that.
Managing Comprehensive Editing Projects
00:02:57
Speaker
I think I enjoy the process of editing a book actually I think because there's much more space generally than you get certainly with the other print work that I do which is magazines or pattern leaflets which have to be very much more concise sometimes with books there's more opportunity for notes and more opportunity for illustration and that's quite rewarding to me
00:03:26
Speaker
But yeah, obviously the whole process takes a lot longer too. So it's not, you know, a week's turnaround. It's, in Nathan's case, several years.
00:03:39
Speaker
from the initial concept, which I was lucky enough to be kind of in on right up to the finished article. And that's almost like, I don't know, raising a child. You know, it's a big thing. Did you edit just the patterns or all of the copy?
00:04:00
Speaker
I did all of the copy and that was a bit outside my norm, I have to say. I've worked on some tutorial leaflets and things like that before.
00:04:13
Speaker
So it's not completely new. And my previous job was in technical writing in the healthcare field. So that's not particularly new new. But I think Nathan felt that he didn't want to have multiple people. He didn't want a pattern editor and a copy editor if I would do all of it. So I did.
00:04:38
Speaker
Which in this case I think was nearly essential because the technique is so integral obviously to the patterns because as Lisa says it's so new and so different. So that almost had to happen. Did you have to learn how to do double knitted brioche in order to be able to edit it?
Learning and Testing New Techniques
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, I did. And that's why it was such a unique project in many ways, because I had to come at it almost in the role of a pupil. So the first manuscript was all I had, the book as you have hoped, I guess you've seen it already.
00:05:19
Speaker
is very rich in terms of imagery and there are links to tutorials and there's everything you could possibly want. I didn't have that. I had the written word and obviously I had Nathan to talk to but that was good because it meant that those words had to express everything
00:05:41
Speaker
So you had to be able to do the technique just from the bare instructions. But yeah, I mean, I'm not, I've done brioche, I've done double knitting, I wouldn't say I was a guru in either of them. So in many ways, it was a
00:05:58
Speaker
almost a trial process of the book at first and then moved on to the more regular editing. Yeah, and I can see that being beneficial because sometimes when it's something that we're very familiar with and we already understand, we could gloss over things just by being
00:06:22
Speaker
by virtue of, you know, I know what he means, so that's probably fine versus if it's brand new to you, just like the knitter who's going to be opening this book, then you're seeing it, like you said, with the pupils eyes and learning it for the first time. And that could help you to make sure that everything is as clear as it needs to be.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, talking about the glossing over. I recently did a pattern that was using I cord and because I'm so used to the typical instructions of slipping it back to the other needle.
00:07:06
Speaker
I didn't really pay close attention to the fact that she was using double pointed needles. So you would tend to slip it to the other end. Now there were two factors there because there was still other stitches on the double pointed needle. It made sense to me that she was slipping them back.
00:07:27
Speaker
But in the end, she came back and she said, oh, we both missed this. And I was like, yep, I did. I missed it. Because you're so used to the technique. You don't pay attention to that little detail. Yeah. Whereas Michelle, I know that Nathan has talked in the past. And I'm using Nathan as an example here because he does write so out of the box.
00:07:54
Speaker
Nathan said in the past that you often pick up needles and test what he's doing. Do you find yourself doing that with other designers or other patterns as well? How often do you actually pick up a set of needles and try something?
00:08:10
Speaker
I would say I often do for something where it is a tutorial type so a special buttonhole or an unusual cable or something where the wording is along the lines of do this thing move yarn forward do that thing where it's hard to get your head around exactly what's going on I find it much easier I mean you can see I've got a stack of needles behind me and I always have somewhere in my
00:08:35
Speaker
in my chair pocket, a ball of wool. And I just, I don't, you don't do the whole thing. So I might make a little swatch and do a buttonhole just to check that those instructions, where it says cast on, they mean to the right hand needle or the left, you know, to get that precision. Right. And I am, I think I got into tech editing through making mistakes. So
00:09:04
Speaker
For me, the only way to really, the proof of the pudding almost is in the doing. So not every pattern by any means, but where something's a bit odd, a bit unusual.
00:09:20
Speaker
And I also, I'm a great believer in model making, so for some of the more unusual constructions, I like to make either a fabric or a paper model of the pieces, and then I might mark the seams in a particular color to see how it all fits together. So I'm quite a visual editor. I like to have things in my hand. Yeah, very much hands-on in the way you do things. I think that was when I'm editing crochet.
00:09:48
Speaker
I find with knitting I'm so familiar with knitting because I've been knitting for 30 years that I don't need to do it most of the time but with crochet it's like it's like my second language so quite often if there's a stitch pattern that's
00:10:08
Speaker
you know, anything other than put your next stitch in the stitch below it, I'll quite often have to get a hook out and test it out and make sure that everything is gonna land where it says it's gonna land.
00:10:25
Speaker
I'm really glad you said that because I do that too. I sometimes think it's it's not cheating but I sometimes feel that it's a bit, I shouldn't be cleverer than this, but then I think well no actually.
00:10:38
Speaker
Also I've done it where there's been a really big question mark with a designer where almost I say this and you say that and actually making a swatch and showing them and saying well look this is what I did, this stitch turns into that stitch, this is what I'm talking about, you can get much more of an understanding
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, I've done that too.
Importance of Clear Instructions
00:11:01
Speaker
And you do seem to hold those conversations with your designers. Are you close enough that you do those in person? Are they always done online? I mean, it's much more common now than it was when you started to be able to do these face-to-faces across the distance. Absolutely.
00:11:24
Speaker
one of the first the first magazine I started working on I'm lucky in that their offices are down the road it's a 30 minute drive so there have been occasions where I used to do some extra work for them as well so physically being in the room with editors magazine editors I mean that has been helpful I don't tend to meet clients much other than socially so at yarn shows and such
00:11:54
Speaker
if we find out we're both going to be there well yes we'll go and have a cup of tea and talk about often future plans and scheduling and oh I'm really pleased this went really well or actually I'm going to revise that because it didn't go very well that kind of thing
00:12:10
Speaker
But yeah, one of the silver linings of the last three years has been that I can say to someone, I really need to talk you through this. Could we zoom at 10 o'clock? And we can literally, and sharing screens is so wonderful because you can literally say, oh well, row such and such for the chart and point out, and it makes,
00:12:36
Speaker
the job so much easier than having to write notes and obviously a tech editor's job the fundamental thing you're doing is almost telling somebody they've gone wrong it's a very difficult psychological position to be in and somehow face to face where you can
00:12:57
Speaker
be a lot kinder because they can see your facial expression and hear your tone, which you can't in an email. You have to be very, very careful when you're communicating just in the written words. So for me, yes, absolutely. The zooming, you know, video call is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the earliest patterns I did was a brand new
Collaborative Nature of Tech Editing
00:13:23
Speaker
designer. It was her very first work.
00:13:26
Speaker
And it wasn't so much that the pattern was complicated as it was in creating the various sizes. It was a lace cardigan. And trying to figure out how to word it because there was some very unique ways of shaping that had to be split out. And so we zoomed for like an hour and a half just trying to figure out how to
00:13:57
Speaker
organize it so that the sizing made sense. And that was a real help, at least for me. I hope it helped her. Um, but I know that for me, it was really helpful and it was so early in my career too. So it was like, okay, I, I really want to just chat about this because I'm not positive how this should go and let's work it out together.
00:14:29
Speaker
It makes it a collaborative process, which I feel like is our job, is to collaborate with these designers. So yeah, I love that part of the last three years. We have to take the good side where we can in order to fit them. Absolutely. Yes. We do. Excuse me.
00:14:57
Speaker
Have you ever run across something that the designer was saying in such a way that you felt it really could fit more into the traditional knitting language, and then you had to convince them to reword it so that it made sense to the knitter?
Standardizing Knitting Language
00:15:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think that's something you do see with perhaps people at the earlier stages of their designing, maybe where they haven't necessarily got a huge background of knitting other people's designs to build on. So, I mean, we could have a whole episode about what is the standard knitting language.
00:15:51
Speaker
But there comes a point where you almost have to say to someone, a lot of your audience are going to expect this to be written this way.
00:16:03
Speaker
It comes down to also, one of the things I like to do is talk to designers about who their audience is, because they might not be British knitters of a certain age who grew up with yarn company patterns that use, you know, they don't say yarn over, they say yarn round needle and old fashioned things, or they might be young, new people who learnt knit by YouTube, who've never seen a written pattern because they've always watched a film.
00:16:30
Speaker
you know, who are they? What do they already know? And it's surprising, actually, it's hard to find out. So you've got to almost cater to a middle way. So if you're going to say something, I think the person knitting needs to be able to find it out from a book.
00:16:55
Speaker
or the internet, or someone who's been knitting longer than them. And if it's not something that is easily accessible, then perhaps you need to be adding a tutorial or notes or what have you.
00:17:14
Speaker
But yes, I mean, there are certain, like you say, about sites splitting out sizing. That's something I felt that very much comes with experience, that you've seen other patterns that do that and the ways that other people grade. So you perhaps
00:17:34
Speaker
might find that easier you know later on but collaborating with the design is fantastic like that because that really is the you know two heads are better than one. Yes most definitely. Yeah that's that's one of my favorite parts of the job too is collaborating with designers and I think that you can set a tone of
00:17:55
Speaker
We're doing this together. We're finding the best way to write this pattern. We're finding anything that could be misinterpreted. And if you can manage that, then they'll thank you for finding their mistakes.
00:18:14
Speaker
absolutely. And it's lovely when clients realize that I have one lady who she always writes at the sort of last email of a particular pattern, she always writes at the bottom, remember, we are better together. And I love that. She's so sweet. I love that. You know, that, that that's true that, and sometimes you beat yourself up, don't you when you you haven't
00:18:37
Speaker
necessarily found everything or someone points something out. And then you have to try really, I mean, yeah, and you think, well, actually, what I did find is hopefully much, you know, more of a problem than what I didn't find. And that, you know,
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, because like I said, the I-cord situation, what does it matter if you tell them to slip it back to the other needle or slip it to the other end of the double-pointed needle? In the long run, they're still going to get the I-cord, right? Either direction is correct. So yes, I did have to remind myself that it was a minor
00:19:20
Speaker
error that I missed. That it wasn't critical to the end product and what I had had found was much more critical. Thank you because I'm I'm actually now feeling better about having made that mistake. Yeah, I had a moment like that last week too. I've had this designer I've been working with for about
00:19:43
Speaker
maybe eight months now, but she sent me a lot of patterns. And she always lets me know when there's something, usually it's just a small style thing like, oh, there was a period still missing at the end of this or whatever it was.
00:19:57
Speaker
She always makes a point to let me know when something's been found. And I always beat myself up. And then last week, she asked me for a meeting and she asked me to edit her book. So it was like, I'm thinking, oh, I'm the worst tech editor. She always finds something I missed. And sure enough, she doesn't have that impression at all.
00:20:21
Speaker
No, no. And excuse me, if they had a problem, they wouldn't come back. You know, if yes, I think the
00:20:31
Speaker
We are perfectionists, aren't we? We wouldn't do the job if we weren't. And sometimes we have to remind ourselves that perfectionism, this is what Nathan himself actually said to me, not that many weeks ago, about something in his book.
Embracing Imperfection in Design
00:20:48
Speaker
And he said, you know, it's all very well being a perfectionist, but you take it too far. And I said, yeah, actually, maybe I do. Is that why he hired you, Bill?
00:21:00
Speaker
Well, there is that. I don't think he's got any ground to speak on because he is one of the most perfectionist designers I have ever worked for. You know, when it's startling, once I actually had to show him an example of the not perfectionist designers work, anonymized, of course.
00:21:23
Speaker
And he was absolutely shocked. It was quite good. I'll bet he would be because knowing Nathan and having talked with Nathan over this last three years about the process of writing the book and having to remind him that, you know what? It's okay if it's not perfect when it goes out.
00:21:52
Speaker
We really had to work on him with that. Let me tell you, the whole group of us, it was just like, Nathan, it's okay. At some point, it's still gotta just get done. Yeah. It's absolutely true. And I think particularly dealing with something so innovative as well that, you know,
00:22:18
Speaker
I guess it's like any massive new thing, isn't it? It's going to have a learning process and that's to be expected. And when this new process gets into other knitters hands, they're probably going to innovate on it further. So it's not necessarily necessary for the first version to be perfect.
00:22:44
Speaker
Exactly. And that's what many of us have tried to remind him on a regular basis. We have one other member of the group who is a very innovative designer that comes at things very much from Nathan's perspective in many ways. But she takes Nathan's work and expands on it. And he loves that. He
00:23:04
Speaker
absolutely is thrilled. She has already innovated some things within his double knitted brioche that we're just now trying to convince her it's time to write the patterns because she
Inspiration and Innovation in Knitting
00:23:18
Speaker
is brand new. She's only got two patterns out there.
00:23:22
Speaker
She's got two out. She's got a third one that, um, we're working on that'll come out in June. So, and of course I've ended up being her tech editor, which is fun. I'm actually doing my very first testnet.
00:23:41
Speaker
Because I knew the minute she started knitting this project, I said, OK, I'm going to edit it. But then I'm going to test knit this one because I really want to make that item. And I really want to test everything in the pattern.
00:23:58
Speaker
I think that's a good idea on occasions. We couldn't do it with everything, could we? No. Oh my gosh, no. If I knit everything that came across my desk, I mean, there's been so many that I would have loved to. The lace cardigan, for example, I would have loved to have sat down and knit that, but I just, you know, there was just no way. But yeah, so she takes Nathan's work and she expands on it and
00:24:28
Speaker
It's just been fun because getting the two of them together, oh my gosh, it is amazing. Isn't it exciting, though, how fast this is moving? Because when I was thinking about coming on your show and talking about this in particular, I thought Nancy Marchant wrote the brioche textbook, if you like, only in 2009.
00:24:57
Speaker
Now that, in knitting terms, was five minutes ago. So to have gone from that, where this comes into what we were saying about knitting language and specialist language for new things, that language only really became set down in print in that book. So
00:25:18
Speaker
It's evolving so quickly. And the idea that now that another NITA is taking on that work and taking it further, that's brilliant, isn't it? Isn't it a good time to be around all this? Oh, it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. And I love the fact that Nathan has built this group around him
00:25:40
Speaker
that think in that manner. I've been slowly working my way through Nathan's book because, of course, my introduction to tech editing came thanks to Nathan and introducing me to Michelle. So I've been slowly working my way through the book. I love the way he looks at the detail
00:26:08
Speaker
of how those stitches go together. And I've learned so much from him and this group on how to look at
00:26:23
Speaker
Literally how the threads move through the knitting. I mean, I've been able to, I'm, I've been knitting for nearly 50
Understanding Complex Knitting Techniques
00:26:30
Speaker
years. I can read my knitting very easily. Although this test knit is a triple knitted. And let me tell you, learning to read triple knitting is a whole new skill.
00:26:48
Speaker
Totally. And Michelle, of course, probably knows. Yes, it really does make you sharpen your wits. And that's, that's quite rewarding as an editor, actually, particularly when
00:27:08
Speaker
you know you you do a lot of it it doesn't ever become boring don't get me wrong but there's only so many stocking stitch cardigans in five sizes that you get without something a bit more challenging yes yes and certainly as well some of the um you know people other people around who are doing interesting things with
00:27:35
Speaker
the way the yarn passes through and specific stitches that are unusual. That I find absolutely fascinating. It's really exciting. The different styles of construction that are happening today.
00:27:57
Speaker
How long has it been since the first person created the knitted in top down set in sleeve? Or I've been, I've had a couple of people around me that have knitted the ziggurat style sweaters and the construction of those is so fascinating.
00:28:25
Speaker
I will link to some of the patterns for that because they're top down, they're set in sleeves, and the way she creates like a whole new shape, like a V-shaped neckline starting top down with a set in sleeve.
00:28:53
Speaker
Oh my gosh, it is, I literally watched a friend knit a swatch that was the entire upper portion of the sweater just trying to figure out the technique that was used because it is so new and so unique that she couldn't visualize it just reading it from the page.
00:29:19
Speaker
As an editor, that's one of the things that popped into my head when we were saying, you know, you've got to sometimes pick up the needles and how much of knitting would it take to actually figure out, yes, this really works, right?
00:29:39
Speaker
There's so many things happening in our world, in our knitting world right now. I don't know if the crochet world is quite as innovative, but the knitting world, there's just so much happening. And it's so fun as an editor to get those things coming across our desk and seeing, oh, how did you figure this out?
00:30:10
Speaker
right yeah i i think it's almost that it's really refreshing to see people breaking away from what i call the pattern cutting style of knitting where it's based on essentially what the woven sewers are doing so a piece is cut to shape and then it's seen together which knitters borrowed
Shifts in Knitting Styles
00:30:35
Speaker
I think just culturally, and also because it made for quicker shorter patterns I think there's some of the knitting historians have probably got a lot to say about all of this. But now we're moving to a much more, almost like a draping style aren't we where knitted fabric is being made to fit the form.
00:30:56
Speaker
from the top down a lot of it, seamless, very, very exciting. But yeah, the geometry sometimes. Exactly. It really stretches our math brains. It really does.
00:31:13
Speaker
I laugh because geometry was where my math skills just went down the tubes. And it's not because I didn't understand geometry. It's because I had a bad teacher that insisted that all we do is memorize.
00:31:30
Speaker
Right? And so I didn't get the practical applications. I was 12. Come on, show me how this fits my real life. And guess what I've done my entire life, right? And when it dawned on me that it was all geometry, I nearly quit knitting. Because I had this, you know,
00:31:54
Speaker
aversion to the word geometry for so long. And then I thought, no, wait a minute. What this tells me is that the grade I got in that class wasn't representative of what I could really do. I had to remind myself that it's another one of those situations where, you know, you have to quit beating yourself up. Right. I think the people of
00:32:23
Speaker
very much afraid of maths, a lot of people have your experience of a teacher who wasn't a teacher at all in the sense that they didn't educate the pupil, they made things worse and in my former life I used to teach statistics to nurses
Overcoming Math Fear in Knitting
00:32:44
Speaker
And the number of people who came through the door who said, I hate maths. It's the first thing they said. And you thought, right, OK, my answer to that was always, can you pay a bill? Can you book a holiday? Can you work out what things are cheaper in the supermarket? You don't hate maths. You're doing maths all the time. And designers sometimes say, well, couldn't do that too much maths. Well, actually,
00:33:13
Speaker
It's a mindset and maybe, yeah, teachers have a lot to answer for. I agree. I agree. And as a former teacher, that's really kind of a funny thing for me because I was an educator in my former life and so
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, we do have a lot to answer for. And I can point to the good teachers I had in my life that led me to want to be a teacher and say, no, I want to be like this person, not that person. I want to be the one that helps the kid learn a why, not the how. Because if you teach a kid the why,
00:34:06
Speaker
The how comes naturally. I have homeschooled all three of my children at advanced levels. I will admit, when it came to calculus, I found an outside teacher.
00:34:24
Speaker
can't blame you. But you know, um, I have one in college, I have one that will be graduating next year that could have graduated last this last December. She has literally accomplished all of her core
00:34:44
Speaker
credits. So everything from this January on is extra, literally. I've got one that's been a little slow to start. But let's face it, he graduated the year of the pandemic. The failure to launch on that one in part was the world. But
00:35:14
Speaker
I can walk through life knowing that my education degree didn't go to waste.
Educational Role of Tech Editors
00:35:23
Speaker
I think there's a role though as editors.
00:35:26
Speaker
that part of what we do, particularly with designers who are at the beginning of their career, part of it is a form of education in the sense that you want to say to them the why. You want to say, well, I think it might be better if you said this like this because not you must, but also another thing is about saying, well, I've come across people making a mistake here because what have you.
00:35:56
Speaker
And it's about that kind of, there's nothing nicer for me as an editor when you see somebody take on board what you said and not do the same thing again. That's so rewarding. And also the opposite actually, where you suggest something to somebody and they come back with a really good reason why you're wrong. That's also very satisfying too. And I'll bet you Nathan does that to you a lot.
00:36:27
Speaker
sometimes. Whether he's right or not. To be fair, he doesn't actually. We've only ever once had a real moment where I've said A and he said B and we agreed to differ. No, I think it's, yeah, it is a
00:36:50
Speaker
And it's, it's a process, isn't it? We're also educating ourselves, every pattern you edit influences the next one. And I think that's particularly true with these more modern, unusual things, the more of those you see, the less
00:37:11
Speaker
out of the box they seem like. And I think that is a very important role of the tech editor, especially in these out of the box designs to take the designer's vision and say, how can we make this fit the language of knitting that we have so that knitters will be able to understand the vision and
00:37:35
Speaker
recreate it. I have one that I'm working on right now that's, it's a pair of shorts with a lot, a lot of shaping. It seemed, but there's, yeah, there's just a lot of shaping to get these four pieces of fabric to become shorts. And we were talking about how are we going to grade this? How can we
00:38:04
Speaker
get all of the sizes like without writing out every size line by line nine times. And I recalled a pattern by another designer that I had knit that had a table that had each row of the design or each row for each size.
00:38:26
Speaker
On row one, you're increasing on row two, you're binding off or whatever it is. Um, and so I was able to bring that to the designer and say, maybe we can do it this way to make it more manageable. So it's not a hundred page pattern, right? Hmm.
00:38:45
Speaker
That sounds interesting. I have to say, I've worked on a couple of skirts, but the lower body between waist and socks is a bit of a desert to me.
Adapting Sewing Techniques for Knitting
00:38:59
Speaker
I must admit, there are so few knitted lower body garments that that, yeah, grading shorts. Knitted lower body garments don't necessarily flatter the body as much as
00:39:17
Speaker
other knitted garments might for those of us who are not of a self-like persuasion. I actually get more lower body garments than you would probably expect. A lot of them have negative ease, which obviously is not going to work for everybody. These shorts have positive ease and they're seamed, so there's some structure to it.
00:39:47
Speaker
but they're knit sideways in cotton. And I'm like. I was going to say, I knew the pair of shorts you were referring to. The cotton is driving me bonkers because the gauge is so all over the place. Every time I get a design in cotton, we have gauged issues. But I mean, the pictures I've seen so far, they look great.
00:40:14
Speaker
I'm really excited to see how how other other knitters create their projects as it goes through testing. But yeah, it's been it's been a big challenge. Yeah, especially grading that to make it look right. You know, I mean, such a such a unique garment.
00:40:41
Speaker
Well, a lot of and and we had a big discussion about this pair of shorts because we were talking about the fiber and how it would affect the way the material stretched in wearing and how that was going to need to be. And I, I would have expected because because they're knit sideways, but they're cotton, I would have expected them to grow in length because they're cotton.
00:41:11
Speaker
but they're still actually growing in, um, width instead. Yeah. The row gauge is growing instead of the stitch gauge. And that's very common with cotton. Yeah. But usually you, you think because like when you're, when you're knitting side to side and in cotton, you would expect gravity to pull it down when it's worn.
00:41:40
Speaker
but that's not what's happening in this case because it was knit sideways. I think that goes back to
00:41:51
Speaker
A little bit of what Nathan has taught me in terms of the stitch construction and why a stitch would stretch lengthwise versus widthwise, even though the gravity is pulling it with.
Understanding Fiber Behavior
00:42:06
Speaker
When you combine the knowledge of what cotton does, it tends to be
00:42:17
Speaker
Let me think about this so I can say it. Okay, you've got your stitch with the V at the bottom and the curl at the top. And so what's happening, it's pulling against that curl at the top and making it narrower, while at the same time making it longer. And cotton will naturally do that, regardless of where the gravity is affecting it.
00:42:44
Speaker
I think the way I've said that makes sense. I'm not positive. No, it does. And that's certainly what we're finding in this case. Yeah, just wasn't what I expected, but I should have known it wouldn't be what I expected.
00:43:00
Speaker
There again, that's another thing about being a tech editor with knowledge of fibers. I have that unique background of coming from spinning as well as knitting and I weave as well. I can see how the fibers work in the different constructions and have a little bit more knowledge of what that fiber is likely to do.
00:43:30
Speaker
And I realize that's unique to me, right? And, but it just means that my clients come to me because I have that unique knowledge in ways.
Translating Patterns into English
00:43:44
Speaker
I seem to be working with a lot of clients that are translating their patterns into English. And mostly what I'm doing is making sure that the grammar
00:43:55
Speaker
is correct in English within the knitting world. That's the biggest proportion of my clientele right now. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I have to say, I really admire people who write patterns in more than one language. I think that's amazing. But there is certainly sometimes a sort of
00:44:24
Speaker
It's not so much language, is it? It's almost dialect that English knitting patterns say things in a certain way. Some of the print work that I do involves, say, a yarn manufacturer writes their patterns in other languages and they haven't translated into English.
00:44:45
Speaker
but they're not always in knitter's English, if that makes any sense. So a pattern translated from French will suit a French knitter down to the ground, but that's not how British magazine readers do things. So, for example, the French seem to like to make a ribbed neckband separately and then graft it on, which is something unheard of.
00:45:08
Speaker
in in the sort of older clientele who buy our magazines they just say what what are you talking about we pick up and knit so it's about translating that so where they say start your neckband and then graft live stitches we say no don't do that pick up and knit the same number around and those sorts of things are
00:45:31
Speaker
a kind of different level, aren't they? Almost a nuance of knitting. And that's what I deal with quite a bit because in many cases, they're a designer that works in their own language and they've hired a translator.
00:45:49
Speaker
to translate it that doesn't really understand knitting language. And then you have the added issue of the switching it to English knitting language. So the bulk of the corrections that I'm making are not to how the pattern is written, but making sure that the language is going to be understandable by the English speaking
00:46:19
Speaker
knitter. And it makes it a lot easier to tell them they've made mistakes in some ways, because it's not their fault, right? They didn't write the translation someone else did. And in some cases, they are translating them themselves. And they know that their English isn't good enough.
00:46:43
Speaker
I have this dear, sweet, adorable, lover to death Icelandic knitter that I've started working with and she knows that while she's translating her patterns into English, her English is
00:47:00
Speaker
Definitely a second language for her and she knows there's going to be a multitude of errors and so it's real easy to say well We would say it like this you could say it like this Or this right there's a lot of it's not cut and dry in a lot of cases it's
00:47:25
Speaker
And she's also very innovative in her design. So there's that added out of the box kind of thinking to a degree because she's not writing the typical Icelandic sweater.
00:47:44
Speaker
And so it's a suggestion. Well, OK, you've said it like this. You could say it like this or like this. And it would translate just a little bit better. And there's a lot of that that I do. Rather than cut and dry, this is incorrect. You need to say it like this. It's a lot of, well, maybe you could put it like this, that kind of thing.
00:48:14
Speaker
So apart from picking up the needles, what do you both do when you get a really out of the box design and you need to grade it or something like that? How do you approach something that's so different? Do you have favorite resources?
00:48:38
Speaker
I think it's difficult to say that there's any one particular thing that I would go for. I mean you can probably see behind me I've got a massive collection of books. The sort of basic standard Maggie Righetti Shirley paid in those books
00:49:00
Speaker
I'm also a big fan of Monsey Stanley's books. She goes into quite a lot of detail about stitches as well, which they're always useful resources. In many ways, I think model making is a big one for me. And also thinking about
00:49:26
Speaker
sometimes, like I think I said earlier on about swatching and seeing how different parts would fit together. The other thing I generally, I mean, yeah, I suppose it partly also I'll look at what's going on in the
00:49:46
Speaker
sewn world so if somebody's taking their influence from how something would be done there well I'll go and you know particularly when you get something that's maybe a jacket or something like that you'll think well yeah why is that made like that what are they what are they doing why um yeah and it also I think it's important to know what's out there in terms of tutorials you know if somebody's
Lack of Standardized Editing Manuals
00:50:15
Speaker
writing their own tutorial for a particular stitch or say or recommending one obviously as an editor you would go and watch it to check it's the right thing right and check it's doing what they say it's doing but also is there something else out that out there that maybe does things differently or is a is a cast on called by a different name um you know things things like that and and
00:50:40
Speaker
There aren't many editing resources themselves. I think in some ways that's a good thing. We don't have this manual of rules that we have to stick to. But in some ways it would be quite nice sometimes to just say, I wonder who are the people? And that's where colleagues come in, isn't it? Where it's great to have somebody that you can get hold of and say,
00:51:04
Speaker
I don't know what to do here, or am I along the right lines? That's one of the things I like about my magazine work in that it's done in pairs. So we do half each in review. So you've always got somebody to almost second edit your work, but also to ask questions and to discuss and say, well, I would write it like this. What do you think?
00:51:32
Speaker
And sometimes you could do that with a designer, couldn't you? They could be your resource. You'll say, well, what were you thinking? What was your aim here? Or have I got this right? That kind of thing. Being really open to that conversation between you and the designer. Yeah, definitely. I think the other thing, going back to what we were saying about geometry and maths,
00:52:00
Speaker
I should declare a tame resource in that my husband's a mathematician who specialised in topology at university. So if I have a question about geometry.
00:52:11
Speaker
Have someone that's great. Isn't it wonderful when you have those people in your life? I would have to say that the modeling that Michelle mentioned is a common thing for me. Graph paper is a must in my life. There is always a pad of graph paper around. Always.
00:52:40
Speaker
I will often resort to, especially when I'm checking charts, I will resort to actually recreating it on graph paper just so that I can see that the stitch counts are working because I find myself not able to compare what's on the screen. I also print every pattern.
00:53:04
Speaker
That's interesting. Because I have discovered that I edit much better on the piece of paper than I do on the screen. Now, I do have a very odd visual issue that affects depth perception. And therefore, I think sometimes that interferes with what I'm seeing on the screen. So I print every pattern in order to edit it.
00:53:28
Speaker
So I have a file drawer of patterns. And I edit it with a pencil and a red pencil. My little two-tone pencils. For those of you who can see here. My little two-tone pencils. Oh, cute.
00:53:49
Speaker
The girls can see what I'm holding up is a pencil that on one end is blue and on the other end is red. On this one the red side is definitely much shorter than the blue.
00:54:02
Speaker
But the blue one is a lot longer. They get just kind of reversed in my hand. And I don't necessarily use one color for a certain thing or anything. But these are my friends. These are all over the house. Because it doesn't matter. I don't have to be sitting directly at my desk to work until I'm actually plugging numbers into the spreadsheet. And I've been doing a lot more of that on a laptop of late.
00:54:32
Speaker
another part of it. I'm of a slightly different generation. I've been using a computer since I was five years old. So I do everything, all of my editing on the computer, but I do love to use Stitch Mastery to chart things out.
Using Tools for Accuracy in Design
00:54:49
Speaker
So that's my version of graph paper. But a lot of times, you know, if it's whether it's short rows or a lace pattern over increases, I loved using Stitch Mastery to make sure that it's all working out.
00:55:04
Speaker
Yeah, and see, that's where I automatically pull the graph paper out. It's just... I'm a mixture. I don't know. Some things I will chart with Stitch Mastery. Other things like sock heels. I have a really odd way of drawing them as a diagram on squared paper, just because that's the only way I can get it right in my head and it takes five minutes and I know it's done. Yeah, you've got me there. Sock heels are the only thing I do on paper. It's not funny we both do.
00:55:33
Speaker
I must say I do occasionally like a change and if I'm doing something like charts against written instructions, I like to do that on paper. I find that hard work on the screen. I've got two big screens. And also just for a breath of fresh air in terms of location, you know, take yourself away from there.
00:55:57
Speaker
from the computer for a little while. Yeah. And edit on paper. All of my first edits are done on paper, every single one of them. I have a professional grade printer over here that my husband insisted upon getting, which has been the bane of my existence for many things, but it does print double-sided.
00:56:28
Speaker
So, you know, and it's a laser printer, so the ink, even with the number of patterns I've been printing and everything, the ink lasts for years. It's expensive upfront, but it lasts forever. So, yeah, I print everything first and I go through it first on paper because I know I catch more that way.
00:56:51
Speaker
every pattern that I've ever tried to stick just to the screen, I've missed too much in my opinion. So it gets double edited in the long run because I do, I track all my time when I'm doing the paper edit, but then when I go to actually do it on the file, I'm reading it a second time almost to catch.
00:57:16
Speaker
where all those edits go and and so yeah I do catch a lot more that way it's just the way my eyes work yeah so I think when I'm when I'm grading these kind of unique constructions I have to
00:57:40
Speaker
imagine it in something that's more familiar you know like i got this one lisa checked my grading for me but it it was a front panel and then seamed on side panels
00:57:58
Speaker
and then seemed on sleeves, but the sleeves didn't attach to the side panel, they attached to the front panel. And so I'm going, well, this is kind of like a set in sleeve, but it's kind of like a drop shoulder. It was an interesting hybrid. And yeah, just wrapping your head around how those pieces fit together.
00:58:26
Speaker
Well, and checking the grading on that was different too because you had to literally visualize each panel and what each panel was doing before the sizing and the stitch counts made sense. And
00:58:45
Speaker
We double check each other's grading. We have a special deal there. So yeah, that one was definitely a challenge to figure out where everything was fitting in.
00:59:04
Speaker
And oh, that's where the schematic. And that's where sitting down with a piece of graph paper and drawing it for me would have helped me grade better because I would have been able to see how the pieces were being shaped and where the changes needed to happen for each size. Because that's another thing is on grading that one,
00:59:35
Speaker
where do you increase or decrease sizing was very dependent on how that center panel followed up the front of the body. Right. That sounds really challenging and relating that to a known set of body measurements, you know, we don't have enough, you know, we only have sleeve length, chest, waist, you know, a lot of the angular measurements
01:00:04
Speaker
I sometimes find that particularly you think well, what's the angle where this measurement meets that measurement, and how is that going to. And I think sometimes you, it's easy to get very wrapped up in that isn't it with these.
01:00:21
Speaker
And perhaps hopefully the knowledge of fibre comes to the rescue and you think, well, actually there's quite a lot of drape in that area. So if it's half a centimetre different here than there, well, it's about understanding how the garment is going to work.
01:00:41
Speaker
But yeah, coming back to the cotton shorts. Yeah. And I think a really important tool for me on both of those designs has been the ASTM sizing charts, because you have so many more body point measurements to work with.
Ensuring Patterns Work as Intended
01:00:59
Speaker
Because, you know, like figuring out on the shorts, we have to figure out like how much
01:01:09
Speaker
It's not short row shaping because it's sideways, so it's like it uses increases and decreases instead. But how much booty shaping do you need, right?
01:01:22
Speaker
and how much length the ASTM has a crotch length, which measures from the front waist down under to the back waist. So we can kind of use that to figure out the curve of the shaping of the front and back panels. But it's been really, really mind bending.
01:01:46
Speaker
And that goes back to understanding your sewing construction. And fortunately, this designer is a sewer. So he's got a really strong understanding about it. And understanding how you take a flat fabric and make it curve. Because if you can understand it from the sewing point of view with a fabric that doesn't
01:02:14
Speaker
mold and stretch the I wanted a different word than than stretch because it's the way it molds the body. Right. And I suppose. Yes. So at that point, when when you can understand how how to create the curves in a piece of fabric that doesn't do that.
01:02:36
Speaker
And then adjust for a fabric that does. There's a big understanding, a big learning curve between those two things, right? Yeah. And I think that there's also an element there where I think the importance of test knitting is going to come in for things like that. And I don't think there's any shame in that to say, actually, this is really unusual.
01:03:06
Speaker
And we need to see how this works on a human body. It's not one or the other edit or test knit. It's edit and test knit. Oh, I'm a firm pusher in doing both for every pattern. I mean, very rarely would I have a pattern that doesn't need to be test knit.
01:03:29
Speaker
I mean, even this triple knitted item, it's something as simple as a cowl. I was like, okay, I'm going to test knit this because I need to see, because there's some very unique construction in it. And I said, but I want you to make sure that this person tests it too, because I knew that that person had the knowledge to,
01:03:53
Speaker
Test knit all of the different aspects of it and let us know, hey, you need to reword this this way because it was just completely, it's a triple knitted Argyle cowl with Latvian braids that are reversible. So there's a Latvian braid on both the front and the back. Wow.
01:04:21
Speaker
that gives me fear and excitement in equal measure.
01:04:30
Speaker
And so it was like, okay, I'm going to test this because I want to make sure I didn't miss anything. Plus I want the item in the end. I said, but I want you to make sure that person test knits. And she's like, Oh yes, he's already agreed. We're coming towards the end of it. Cause she's her expected release date is in June. So we're getting there.
01:04:59
Speaker
watch this space. I'm intrigued about that one. It's called the Argyle with three Rs.
Conclusion: Collaboration and Innovation
01:05:08
Speaker
With three Rs. We tried to talk her out of it, but oh well. I love it. That's adorable.
01:05:18
Speaker
So we have reached an hour, guys. Isn't that amazing that we could talk this long about something as simple as out of the box tech editing? We could probably talk all day about out of the box editing. We really could. And if there's anything I would love to do, it would be to spend the day talking to the two of you.
01:05:42
Speaker
We could count it as continuing professional education. Oh, definitely, definitely. This has been such a joy. Michelle, I'm so happy you were able to join us. I would like our listeners to know how they can find you and are you taking new clients?
01:06:03
Speaker
I am, but in a fairly limited way. I am quite busy. And obviously I do have quite a lot of long standing commitments. I'm known as Stix and String, which is S-T-I-X-N-S-T-R-I-N-G. And my website is www.stixandstring.com. There you find me there.
01:06:29
Speaker
If people want to get in touch, that would be great. I can't guarantee that I can take them on because as I say, I am quite busy, but yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you both. And yeah, I'm very excited to be featured on your podcast. Well, I tell you what, we may just have to have you back.
01:06:49
Speaker
Oh, well, that would be a pleasure. This has been just too much fun. I have to say, do I have to edit another 460 page book before I can get on it? No, no, no. Just make sure Nathan keeps on writing the patterns that are in his backlog. Oh, I know, I know. We've got to work on that Northampton because he keeps saying the chart on that is not doable.
01:07:18
Speaker
the the shawl with that looks like the peacock feathers oh yeah he keeps saying the chart on that one is impossible and so we've got to keep working on that one although i will happily say that he's finally finally started working on writing the genesis shawl
01:07:38
Speaker
Well, good, good. When was that one? 2011, something like that? Yeah, I wasn't going to try and put a year on it, but it's quite a few years ago. That was quite early on. Yeah. Yeah, I stopped nagging him about that. I kind of forgotten about it. Oh, I haven't. I haven't quit nagging him at all because I want that one in the worst way. I really do.
01:08:03
Speaker
I love that shell. Anyway, it's been absolutely fantastic. Michelle, thank you so much, Nikki. I really appreciate your being here and have a great day. Don't miss the next episode where we'll chat with Kirsten Jordan, a digital marketing wizard who knows how to make social media work for small business.
01:08:33
Speaker
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