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The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975)
12 Plays1 month ago
We see you shiver with antici……..pation! Caitlin is back and we are here to deliver an incredibly lengthy conversation about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. There’s not much to add to a 3.5 hour conversation, but it’s clear that this one is near and dear to our hearts. We hope you enjoy this one, because we certainly enjoyed making it.
Episodes available on YouTube or Spotify!
Check out Caitlin's podcast, Watched It!
Intro Music: Body in the trunk by Victor_Natas -- https://freesound.org/s/717975/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
Outro Music: drum loop x5 by theoctopus559 -- https://freesound.org/s/622897/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
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Transcript
Setting the Scene: Recording in a Closet
00:00:00
Speaker
It feels like very illegal to be recording a Rocky Horror podcast from literally in a closet.
Introduction to 'What Haunts You'
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome to What Haunts You, a podcast about the stories that haunt our dreams. Find us on Instagram at whathauntsyoupod or find any of our episodes on YouTube or Spotify.
Anticipation for Rocky Horror Discussion
00:00:41
Speaker
This episode is one that I have been wanting to do for a long time, and I'm glad I have the right person for the job.
Welcoming Caitlin - Musical Reflections
00:00:48
Speaker
We are finally going to talk about the Rocky Horror Picture Show with Caitlin, who you might remember from when we covered Phantom of the Opera. So welcome back. Welcome. Oh my god. hi Thank you for having me here again.
00:01:02
Speaker
episode about The Phantom of the Opera is, mean, the day we recorded that is maybe one of my favorite days of my entire life. So thank you so much for that.
00:01:12
Speaker
And I am over the moon to be back here talking about but another one of my favorite musicals. I had a great time doing that one too. That was such a fun conversation. and like, I just could nerd out about musicals forever and ever and ever. And like the weirder the musical, the more i want to nerd out about
Caitlin's Evolving Love for Horror
00:01:31
Speaker
it.
00:01:31
Speaker
Yeah, same here. I'm happy to be your resident musical horror girly person. Amazing. Amazing. Because we need one of you. Like, i need one of those. ah so so last time you were on, we were kind of talking about how you're not super into horror. You like try a couple of things, but you get pretty, you get more scared than is fun for you, which is obviously not what it's about.
00:01:55
Speaker
But it sounds like there have been some shifts. It seems like something something is changing there, which I love
Cinema and Theatricality in Horror Films
00:02:01
Speaker
to hear. So can you tell me a little bit about what's going on for you with horror right now?
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think it's honestly through your podcast and being a guest. But then also every fall, I make a fall slash Halloween movie list. And I try my best to branch out and not have it be just like, like, I mean, last night, I rewatched the DCOM twitches.
00:02:23
Speaker
Why did I do that to myself? I don't know. Because it's so good. What do you mean? Because it's fun. It's really fun. I needed it. I really needed it. um So like, I try not to just do that kind of thing all the time.
00:02:36
Speaker
And I feel like lately and like in the last couple of months, I have watched scarier things and I'm really proud of myself. So I just wanted to toot my own horn a bit. Yeah. Can you tell me what you've watched? Like what's gone over well for you so far?
00:02:50
Speaker
okay I mean, and I'm sure anything I mentioned is not probably that scary to most people, but whatever. Last week, was it last week? I think time is not real.
00:03:02
Speaker
um I watched Bram Stoker's Dracula, the Francis Ford Coppola movie. that That makes a lot of sense. That seems like it would be right up your alley. It's very theatrical. Like just so the drama, it's very high drama.
00:03:15
Speaker
i was not, I don't know what I expected going into it. i had no idea what it would look like or be like. And I did not expect how big of a production it was and how like the visuals were some of the most stunning visuals I've ever seen in my life.
00:03:32
Speaker
Oh, yeah, the costumes in that, the set pieces in that. Like, it's it's i it's total eye candy, that one. It's so much fun. I should i should really rewatch that soon. Yeah, that was great.
00:03:43
Speaker
um I watched last night the 1946 Beauty and the Beast by Jean-Cocq Dope. Oh, I haven't seen that, actually. Which is, again, it's not actually scary, but, like, you know what it made me think of, actually, is that it has a lot of parallels with the Phantom of the Opera, weirdly enough, right? And, like, just having this quote-unquote beast figure who, like, you look at him and you're scared and like,
00:04:09
Speaker
the young ingenue beautiful girl wants to run away but ultimately kind of loves him like there were so many parallels i was like wow this is very timely that I'm watching this Yeah, I don't think I would have thought about it, but i do feel like Phantom of the Opera is is a Beauty and the
Buffy Traditions and TV Series Commitment
00:04:26
Speaker
Beast story. I feel like it might not be as true about the book, but I feel like the musical definitely hits that mark of like she's captive, but she kind of loves him.
00:04:36
Speaker
The ending is really like where it diverges, right, of them ending up together versus them ending up splitting up. But the the foundation is definitely, definitely very similar.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's exactly what I thought. I am scrolling through my letterbox and realizing that maybe that's about it. I don't know why I thought I watched some scarier things recently. ah Maybe because I was watching Buffy season three, which I don't actually find scary, but it's like still, I don't know. i I've been watching one season for the last few fall seasons, if that makes sense.
00:05:10
Speaker
um So I started in 2023 and I'd never watched it before. so I was kind of just like in that mindset for like a few weeks of watching season three. That's cool. i So I'll make my like very illegal confession here. I've actually never seen even a single episode of Buffy, um of which feels like insane to say out loud, but i really i really need to get around to it. i and i mean, I think I've mentioned this to you. I have so much more trouble starting a new TV show than starting a new movie. It just feels like such a bigger commitment.
00:05:43
Speaker
But it's also so obviously up my alley. like It's so clear that I would like it, that I don't know... what's stopping me at this point but I just like haven't turned it on yet i completely understand because that was me up until two years ago like I had never watched any of it I'd seen some clips like here and there and heard things about the plot over the years but um yeah I definitely definitely think you would love it and enjoy it. And maybe you could do like what I'm doing, which is just this weird tradition. I decided randomly of like one season per, per fall. Cause it's so fall coded to me that I'm like, I don't know that I could do this in other parts of the year, but also the more I watch, the more I love it. So then it's like, do I actually want to wait till next year?
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah, that becomes the real question. Once you get into like binge watching mode, you're you're not going to want to turn it off. But that that is a good idea, though. That does feel like a like slightly more digestible way to get into, especially like a show that was long, right?
Admiration for Practical Effects in Films
00:06:41
Speaker
Like I think now we get, i feel like I always can start like a miniseries a little more easily because I'm like, oh, that's like a week of my time if I really am into it.
00:06:50
Speaker
yeah. Those multi-season shows are definitely like a bigger ah bigger thing to take a bite out of. So that's I think that's a good idea. yeah I recommend it. Awesome.
00:07:01
Speaker
But I feel like that's a good start. And I feel like old... I mean, i like I've mentioned, like I love older horror movies, like like early film days, old horror movies. So I think it's... I have to watch Beauty and the Beast. Like, I haven't seen that one.
00:07:15
Speaker
That's another one that the visuals... Some of the visuals are really... I'm trying to find the right word. Really stunning, but really... i cant I don't know. I can't explain. I'm just like seeing shots in my head as I'm trying to find what word to use. But a lot of it is pretty like standard. like When it's her family and her sister, she has... like I don't know what version of this story they're necessarily telling, but she has two sisters and a brother and a dad, obviously. And so when it's centered around them, it's just very standard filmmaking, I would say.
00:07:49
Speaker
But then anything with actually like with Belle and the Beast is super... ethereal, like lots of shots that flow into each other. There's like magic involved. and And just like knowing that all of that was like bit practical and like no CGI and stuff. It's like, ah it's so endearing.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's so interesting to see how creative people were able to be with such limited resources and such limited technology, because they still managed to make these incredibly effective sequences that honestly hold up better than early CGI movies do, for me at least.
Diving into Rocky Horror: Personal Experiences
00:08:32
Speaker
Yeah, and it just, everything feels so much more artistic in that way. Totally. So should we get into should we get into Rocky Horror? Is it time? I'm like sitting here like all excited.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yes. Okay, so i think it makes sense for us to kind of start with how we got into Rocky Horror, each of us, and like what that journey into that world looked like. So do you want to tell me about when you first saw it and kind of how you started dipping your toes into that?
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, what's funny is that I don't remember a time in my life that I didn't know about Rocky Horror, and yet I have zero memory of watching it for the first time. So I i honestly don't know when it would have been. I can't imagine I watched it as like a toddler because ah that would have been crazy. But I feel like my whole life I've just known, certainly I knew what the time warp was and I knew some of the other songs.
00:09:27
Speaker
I grew up in a musical theater loving household and In some ways, I'm surprised that my family likes this musical, but in other ways, it's just like by the time i was alive and listening to musicals, this was just so in a funny way, it became kind of mainstream.
00:09:44
Speaker
Also, my sister, who's a singer, she actually did like a stage production of this in Montreal like ages ago. um feel like I have a memory of seeing the theater and seeing her in it, but like I was really young. So I don't think I went to see it, but.
00:10:01
Speaker
Erin, if you're listening to this, please like message me. I forgot to ask her beforehand if she remembers if I saw her in this or not. but It seemed like a really fun thing that she did. And then for many years, I've wanted to see either and another like a live stage production of it or i wanted to go watch the movie in a theater with people. And I knew that that was a big thing in Montreal.
00:10:23
Speaker
And I know a lot of cities do that. Finally, last year, me and my friend Ted went to see a stage production of it. When I say stage, um where we went didn't actually have a stage. It was literally like a black box theater. Like just the floor was the stage.
00:10:38
Speaker
And there was maybe like seating for like 75, 100 people max. So it very, very, very intimate. um And it was really, really cool for me because, yes, the like most of the story and the like big beats stayed the same, but a lot of, a lot of the dialogue was changed and was much looser.
00:11:02
Speaker
Like it was, it was, there were a lot of colloquialisms or like regionally specific references, like things about Canada or things about Quebec or things about Montreal. Like it was really fun that they did that and that I wasn't expecting. What I was expecting, which happened was that after certain lines from directly from the movie, or the original production, were said, like, people in the audience would shout certain things. And I think most of the time it was things that... I don't know how this started happening. You maybe could tell me with, like, the history, but I'm sure some of the things people shouted in the audience were, like, what anyone would shout in, like, other cities, like, what everyone shouts after certain lines.
00:11:43
Speaker
But I think a lot of it was just, like, people... like interjecting at will. There was some like awkward moments ah with audience members, but it it was just fun. And it was so fucking campy and queer. Like I can't even explain, like the people who actually were ah the actors in the production Like it was a mix of all genders, playing any characters. Like it was so fucking fun. It was one of my favorite like live theatrical experiences of my life. um I'd like to go back this year. I don't know if I'll have a chance, but that in a nutshell is my, in a nutshell, like I go on for so long, but um that's my history so far with this musical.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yes, and I love that you include this so far, right? Because this is a this is a lifelong journey, I think, with Rocky Horror. Yeah, I came in through the movie first, but I've seen the live show as well now.
00:12:42
Speaker
And my mom used to go, like, regularly to Rocky Horror when she was... and don't know if she was, like, a teenager or young adult, but, like, in like in her later adolescence, like, she was a regular at Rocky Horror, which...
00:12:58
Speaker
kind of surprises me about her. I feel like it's something I would like maybe want to talk to her more about, about like what the appeal was for her and like why she liked it and why she kept going back because yeah it just is a little surprising.
00:13:12
Speaker
My mom showed it to me, i think I was probably like 13 or 14 the first time I saw the movie at home. And then I think I was like 15 when I went to my first shadow cast and I went with one of my friends and we like dressed up as best we could at that age, right? We had like black leggings on and like big black t-shirts and we cut the t-shirts up not in like a sexy way but just to like show the like we had red tank tops on under because we were like at least we'll do black and red and like that'll be something and we put on red lipstick and we went and it was just it was just so fun I didn't get like did they do a virgin initiation for you at the play no no oh my god I would have been oh my god like that would have stressed me out so much
00:14:03
Speaker
Well, get ready, because when you see the shadow cast, you're going to have to do it. But and and I will say, like, I think i I did not get one for the movie because a lot of the time they skip you if you are under 18, which is the right decision. i understand. i think that is a good thing, but I still feel sad about it.
00:14:23
Speaker
So I didn't get like an initiation moment. And I probably saw like one or two more shadow casts throughout my time in high school. And then I saw like a few more times when I was in undergrad.
00:14:36
Speaker
And then my like real Rocky Horror phase happened when I was in grad school. I had moved to Orange County very much temporarily. i was just there for school and then I was planning to move to San Diego. And I just did not like living in Orange County. And the only thing that I liked there was this little nonprofit movie theater called the Frida Cinema.
00:15:00
Speaker
It's still there. I mean, it's still there. I still go once in a while. And their home... My shadow cast is called Chaos Rocky Horror. So like big shout out to them. I'm very obsessed with them.
00:15:12
Speaker
And I started going like religiously once a month. Second Friday of the month, every month. I think that's still when they do it. Like I was in the front of the line. And like sometimes I was with friends and sometimes I was by myself. But even if you see Rocky Horror by yourself, you're not really by yourself. Like you're just going to...
00:15:29
Speaker
Like, standing in the line is half the fun of the show, I feel like. You're just, like, seeing who's there and, like, how many times has this person gone and this older person who used to be in a shadow cast and this new person who's, like, been hearing about it for their whole life, but they've never seen it yet. And it's just so, like, the the vibes are so high as soon as you're in line. So it's so fun. And I have seen it in a few other places, but, like, chaos at the Frida has my heart big time.
00:15:57
Speaker
and I've seen the play twice. um I saw the play once at OB Playhouse here in San Diego. that has since closed. Rest in peace to the OB Playhouse. i You would have thought this place was so cool. It was small, kind of like the theater you were at, but it did have a small stage.
00:16:14
Speaker
And their focus was basically like creating an accessible theater space financially. So like the tickets were never more than like 35 bucks for everyone. And they relied mostly on donations, but then they weren't getting enough donations after a while. And so they ended up closing.
00:16:30
Speaker
And then I saw, and that was kind of like yours where it was like very intimate, very small. And then I saw it at the Signet Theater in Old Town in San Diego. And that was a little bit of a bigger show.
00:16:41
Speaker
Neither of the live performances I saw had many callbacks. I was nervous to do it because not no one was really doing it. And I was wondering if I did some, if it would start. But I was also like worried I would be the only person doing it.
00:16:59
Speaker
So i I couldn't get myself to do it, which is funny because when I go to the movie, I'm like, so loud and so obnoxious and like you truly God help anyone who's sitting next to me because I'm a menace.
00:17:11
Speaker
But when I saw it at the OB Playhouse, that was the first time I had seen the live show. And they told me that I was still a virgin for the live show and that it didn't count that I had been to the shadow cast.
00:17:22
Speaker
And so they did They gave me like the V on my face. And then and then my Nana, who came to the show with me, had had seen it before, to be clear, like she knew what she was in for.
00:17:34
Speaker
And I just took her to a drag brunch for her birthday like last weekend. So she's she's fine. But my Nana had to watch me get like flogged on the butt as my virgin ritual at the play. Oh, i'm sorry. That's really funny.
00:17:49
Speaker
It's hilarious. And she's a good sport. And like she knows Rocky Horror. So I don't even know how surprised she was. But it was just really funny. Like it was a very absurd moment for me.
00:18:02
Speaker
That is such a rich history. i love that. i definitely want to see the movie as part of an event one day as well. That was originally what I wanted to do. But then However it worked out last year, i ended up seeing an actual live production of it, which I'm grateful for. it But yeah, I'd like to see like the movie, shadow cast, like all of that would be fun.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think both experiences are like so, so worth it. Like i I would tell anyone who's only done one or the other to like do the opposite when they get a chance because it is fun.
00:18:33
Speaker
Kind of like what you were saying about the callbacks and there being a lot of like regional things. That is pretty accurate. There are some things that are borderline universal. And then there are some things that get established at specific theaters and like in specific cities and communities. So that's where you get like jokes about your home, your home city being thrown into the mix or, you know, references to places like like I'm I would imagine like for you in Canada that there's like references to places that would make no sense for someone to reference here and vice versa.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, there was like, at some point, one of the actors said something about referencing how Alberta was super conservative. Like, that's not going to work in like the UK or wherever else. Yeah, like it's all very constructed to feel personal and feel like it's tailored for you. And I think that's like one of the things that makes it so special.
00:19:25
Speaker
And I think that's one of the things that makes it fun to... Like if you're traveling and have the opportunity to like see different but different performances of it in different places to see what works its way into this into like this the audience script of different cities and different areas.
00:19:43
Speaker
And I do just want to say now that there will be a new production of Rocky Horror on Broadway in spring of 2026. I don't think they've announced a cast yet, but I will be so excited to see who's in it. And it's going to be directed by Sam Pinkleton, who is directing O'Mary Broadway.
00:20:06
Speaker
I would love to see this revival if going to the states makes any kind of sense in the next year but just need to throw that out there and I think it's funny too because the last time I was on the podcast we talked about phantom and that is now I mean it's a it's not actually running on Broadway it's called masquerade and it's um an immersive experience thing but it's just funny that now we're talking about another musical that is coming back to Broadway very soon
00:20:37
Speaker
Yeah, that is funny. And i I am so excited for it to get a revival. I think it really deserves one. I feel... i mean, they had the like movie remake of it. I haven't seen it. I shouldn't like speak ill of something I haven't seen.
00:20:53
Speaker
But everything I've heard about it makes me not makes me continue to not see it. You know what I mean? So I i really... I think Rocky Horror always gets introduced to the next generation one way or another, but I'm really excited for there to be like a high quality show for people who can to see it and just to like, and hopefully get some good slime tutorials ah out of that too. And ah if if it were up to me, it would be, you know, like record, like high quality recorded and we could watch it. Like we all watched Hamilton. Like I would eat that up.
00:21:28
Speaker
I have high hopes. I have high hopes. I mean, it's so popular that I hope that it can be lucrative enough that making a pro shot makes sense. um That would be incredible.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it would make sense to do. but yeah, so we both kind of we both did like a little digging into the history. and I think in a way that probably could have been predicted, you got a lot of the history about the musical and I then I kind of followed it up with a lot of the history about the movie. So do you want to kind of set the stage for us and kind of tell me a little bit about how the musical got developed?
00:22:06
Speaker
Yeah, totally. So it was originally a stage musical and it was called The Rocky Horror Show. And then it's just really cute that for the movie, they called it The Rocky Horror Picture Show because it's a moving picture.
00:22:17
Speaker
It's a movie. Anyways, so everything was written by Richard O'Brien. Music lyrics book completely his creation, which is really cool.
00:22:28
Speaker
And basically he thought of it as a humorous tribute to a variety of B-movies associated with the science fiction and horror genres from the 30s all the way to the early 60s.
00:22:40
Speaker
um There's things like he he wanted to include, this is, I'm going to quote from Wikipedia, sorry, um portentous dialogue of schlock horror. I didn't think anyone would think that I came up with those words. So um Steve Reeves, muscle films and 50s rock and roll.
00:22:58
Speaker
That's kind of like the big inspiration for the original musical. um And he also set it against the backdrop of the glam era. And so that was more about British pop culture from the early 70s, which I think is like ah very much on full display um with Frankenfurter in the movie.
00:23:17
Speaker
But um so the musical opened in London in 1973. was shocked to find out that it ran until 1980. I was always curious to look into the reception of this musical and this film because up until my viewing this year, the last few years when I watched the movie, the main thing I think to myself is how the fuck did this get made?
00:23:42
Speaker
Like, and how did it become popular? Like, how did it not remain in obscurity until it became a cult classic? Like, how did it even get put onto cinema screens. Like, and I mean, then now it's on Disney plus like, which is oh yeah like yeah like cinema screens is one thing, but now it's literally on Disney plus, which is that shocked me a few years ago when I was like, where can I watch this?
00:24:04
Speaker
Oh, okay. The one with like animated kids movies. Okay, sure. um But yeah, so the original London West End run was for seven years, which I think is kind of amazing.
00:24:18
Speaker
But then the Broadway run only lasted for 45 shows. And that's kind of funny to me because like everyone like thinks about i feel like with stereotypes, you imagine that like British people are more uptight than Americans.
00:24:31
Speaker
But in so many ways, especially when you think about musicals, I feel like American audiences like, are way more uptight. So I don't know if it was just because of that, but... I also yeah think America, like, consistently has so many hang-ups around sex, specifically.
00:24:49
Speaker
Like, we're not uptight about some things, but I think that's something that we have historically been incredibly uptight about. Yeah, and I'm sure also because... It does feel like a pretty...
00:25:02
Speaker
it Sorry. I do find that it has a very distinct British voice to it. But in a lot of ways, the movie in particular feels very American.
00:25:13
Speaker
But I think I would assume that the original stage production in London probably really, really resonated with British audiences in the culture of it all. And so i' maybe then when it transferred to Broadway, that context maybe just didn't transfer at the time.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's hard to imagine ah time where people would have been seeing this and not really knowing what it is.
00:25:44
Speaker
You know what i mean? Like, I think that's the thing. Like, everyone in our generation who saw it probably had, like, at least some level of knowledge of what they were going into. You can never really do it justice, but I also feel like everyone is always telling you that.
00:25:58
Speaker
Like that it's indescribable, that it almost makes no sense, but also makes perfect sense. Like it's it's in the zeitgeist enough now that you're not like going in so fresh. And back then you have to imagine like people would not have known what the hell they were walking into. Like, can you imagine you're like, oh, I have tickets to like go see a show on Broadway.
00:26:20
Speaker
And the show is Rocky Horror. Like, can you imagine? like Actually, can you imagine that? would have killed. Like, I would kill someone right now for the chance to go back in time and see that original production.
00:26:33
Speaker
Like, I'm not being, like, I'm not joking. Like... That would be amazing. And I'm just surprised that there wasn't like, I don't know, like a riot or something. It makes me think of, this is so niche, I apologize, but I am a musician.
00:26:49
Speaker
It makes me think of the premiere of The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky. It was a ballet that he wrote 1913. It premiered in Paris. And style dance that and the style of dance that the ballet dancers were doing was very um don't even know to describe it it was not beautiful it was meant to be folksy and a little bit deranged and just really out there um and there was a literal riot like the audience actually rioted like we got we get taught this in music school and it's like a very famous anecdote
00:27:23
Speaker
um So in my head, i feel like that should have happened with Rocky Horror, but like, I don't know if that did. I just feel like that could have been such a beautiful little thing to happen. Not if anyone got hurt, but like, I just, I can imagine that a similar thing.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah, if you're like an New Yorker going to Broadway and whatever in the 70s, and you're like, what the fuck is this? Or even the movie, like, like, even when the movie came out, but Yeah, I mean, it's hard to even put yourself into that frame of mind where this is an entirely new thing that exists.
00:28:00
Speaker
It's so ubiquitous now. Like it was on Glee. Yeah. Oh my God, I forgot about that. I'm going to try and forget about that again. I've actually never seen Glee. I just like factually know that it was on Glee. So I don't have the trauma of listening to it, listening to it that way. yourself.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah. It's kind of how I feel about the remake of the movie. Like I've literally never heard anything redeeming about it. So I'm just not, I'm just not, I am such a completionist in so many things, but I think this one, i will leave alone until a worthy newcomer arrives.
00:28:33
Speaker
Yeah. I concur. Yeah. So after the movie, the movie is obviously based on the play. Like you said, they changed the name from the Rocky Horror Show to the Rocky Horror Picture Show.
00:28:44
Speaker
And it ends up being the longest theatrical run for any movie ever. um Because it is literally still running. It's not over. And this is also where we get the development of the shadow cast.
00:28:56
Speaker
And other movies since then have tried to implement like a shadow cast thing. But this is really where it started. And so it started at the Waverly Theater. And the manager of the theater, Denise Borden, would play the soundtrack before the movie to like get the vibes up, get people excited.
00:29:14
Speaker
Before we recorded this, I read a book that was a collection of essays about Rocky Horror, and it was called Absolute Pleasure, Queer Perspectives on Rocky Horror. And in the intro, it talks a lot about like the development of this and just like how it became such a fixture that it has been and like has remained. And if you don't know, like this is the 50th anniversary of ah the movie coming out. And so this is something that is still resonating with so many people like 50 years later, like it is ah staple of queer community. It's a staple of rock and roll. It's a staple of just like the freaks and weirdos, you know, and and so they talk a lot about that.
00:29:54
Speaker
And so, yeah, she would play the soundtrack to get everyone hyped. And Sal Pirro or Pyro, I'm not sure how it's pronounced. He is the co-founder and president of the Rocky Horror Picture Show fan club.
00:30:06
Speaker
And he tells us the audiences naturally began to respond by booing the villains and cheering the heroes. This spawned a whole group of regulars who weekly reserved the same seats in the first row of the balcony.
00:30:18
Speaker
These regulars started dressing up as Rocky Horror characters and began the now iconic tradition of callbacks, funny and irreverent audience responses to key lines and moments in the film,
00:30:29
Speaker
A few of the regulars began to lip-sync to the record that is played before the movie in front of the whole audience. This was spontaneous and it developed into mini-floor show that would happen before the movie and audience response was tremendous.
00:30:44
Speaker
So this just started with people who just kept coming back and learning the show and learning the routines of the show and having their same reactions repeatedly and then starting to share those reactions with other people.
00:30:58
Speaker
And so this all became like more and more elaborate as time went by continued. eventually props started being added and eventually it like spread to other theaters and each theater would, you know, have some of the same things and some knew they would create their own things.
00:31:14
Speaker
And it has just spread nationwide world. I mean, i think to some extent worldwide and turned into, yeah the phenomenon that it is today.
00:31:26
Speaker
i love that so much. And I couldn't think of a more, perfect movie for that development. Not that the movie is perfect, but I just mean like if any movie were to elicit this kind of culture around it of course it's going to be Rocky Horror.
00:31:45
Speaker
Totally. And the other thing about Rocky Horror when you go to see a movie is unless there's something special about it, like there's a touring, you know, showing this year for the 50th anniversary that some of the stars are going to, or if you have Q&As and stuff, unless there's some sort of special circumstances, you see Rocky Horror at midnight.
00:32:08
Speaker
And it matters that you see it at midnight. your journey into Rocky Horror starts at midnight, but in the movie, Brad and Janet's descent into the castle, into Frank and Verder's castle, also begins at midnight. So you're kind of like entering the layer of depravity right alongside them.
00:32:27
Speaker
And in Absolute Pleasure, Heather O. Petrocelli in their essay writes, Midnight opens up a world of possibility where one can cast aside self or socially imposed limitations.
00:32:39
Speaker
Midnight invites queers to transcend the bounds of societal norms and connect with who we are. It ushers in queerness through the phantoms, desires, and longings that are usually hidden yet flourish in the shadows.
00:32:52
Speaker
Midnight is when queer worlds of possibility exists. Midnight, then, is a liminal and transitional borderland between the past and the future, the self and the other. The essence of midnight brims with queer potential.
00:33:06
Speaker
Why is that bringing a tear to my eye? That is so beautiful. Oh my god. I mean, I wish I could stay awake long enough to make it to midnight on any given That doesn't happen often.
00:33:19
Speaker
But, wow that is super, super beautiful. Yeah, and I think it makes so much sense, right? You go to this space where you can where you can dress however you want and maybe it's on theme and maybe it's just a wacky outfit that you have nowhere else to wear, you know?
00:33:40
Speaker
And it's it is. It's like a relinquishing of all of the norms and standards that exist by daylight and saying, like, all bets are off, right? Like, we all stayed up till midnight. We're going to be here till 3 All bets are off and we're doing this. We're doing this, whatever it's going to look like.
00:33:57
Speaker
I love that. That's my brain just stopped. That's how enamored i am with that quote. Yeah, I mean, i I really I think you should add the book to your list because it was really I mean, the essays are beautiful. I have several quotes from several of the essays, but I obviously like if it were I could have included the entire book and it would it would have all been relevant, but I obviously wasn't going to do that.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yes, I've added it to my reading list on Storycraft. So thank you for that. Perfect. I guess like let's get into the actual movie. So we open with we're we're kind of going to go song by song. And then there are some scenes in between that we'll we'll talk a little bit about, too.
00:34:39
Speaker
But we open with science fiction double feature. And do you want to just like describe what it's like to see this the start of this movie? Yeah. It's so fucking iconic. And I apologize in advance. I've probably already used the word iconic five times.
00:34:54
Speaker
And I will be using it like a hundred more because I think it's the just the perfect word for this movie. But it is one of my favorite, certainly one of my favorite opening sequences of any movie. I think it's one of the most...
00:35:10
Speaker
It's one of the coolest shots of any movie, but what it is, is a black backdrop and you see these red disembodied lips singing this song, Science Fiction Double Feature.
00:35:21
Speaker
And it's sung by Riff Raff, who is played by, who Richard O'Brien plays. um But the lips, the actual moving lips are magentas and it's, it's,
00:35:32
Speaker
Like, and it's so close up, you see like her teeth and everything. She's enunciating to high heaven. Like, um what I do find funny, though, is that up until a couple years ago, when I started watching it with subtitles, like, I didn't know what half of these things were. But it's just because I didn't know what the references were and who's the what the names were and everything. So I couldn't match what I was seeing to the sounds. And then when I watched it with subtitles, i was like, whoa, okay, I see what's happening.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, because this song is just reference after reference after reference to old sci-fi. And for most of the time, I've been a fan of Rocky Horror. I hadn't seen like any of the movies, but I have since then gotten much more into, I think much more into sci-fi and then also more into older movies. So now I'm like working my way through them.
00:36:24
Speaker
and it just makes so much sense because the whole movie is paying homage to these movies and so to just start with like a list a list that manages to like honor these movies while degrading them at the same time i am um especially and when you see this with the shadow cast like this has ah callback after basically every line but The first thing you really hear when you start a shadow cast showing of this is one person, maybe several people saying, let there be lips.
00:36:58
Speaker
And then the song opens up. And it's just so it's so perfect. In the book, Absolute Pleasure, in Jane Claire Bradley's essay, they quote Michael Blythe saying, you know, if you're going to love that film within a minute, if you respond to that opening sequence, you're going to have the fucking time of your life.
00:37:16
Speaker
And then Jane goes on to say, for those destined to become transfixed, infatuated, and obsessed, those first few seconds of science fiction double feature are usually enough to do it.
00:37:27
Speaker
And... Period. Like there's there's nothing even to add on to that. It's so captivating immediately. And it's so enticing. And I do feel like it's true. Like, you know, if you are pulled in that like, that's it for you. And you're going to be in this thing. And if you're looking around and you see someone who's like, what's going on?
00:37:49
Speaker
They're not going to like it from there if that does not grab them. And I do also want to say that I think the music, both in this song and in the whole musical, is extremely lush and well thought out. And like I feel like this musical could work with...
00:38:06
Speaker
lesser music because it's still like such a romp and such a fun time it doesn't have to be super complex but the fact that the music the actual instrumental music and the lyrics and melodies and everything are still so good I think that's amazing like this song is like has a string section like it's just very robust and i appreciate that Absolutely. And I say this with so much love in my heart, but Rocky Horror is a bad movie, right? It's one of my favorite movies, but like it's kind of a bad movie.
00:38:40
Speaker
And the juxtaposition of this like kind of bad movie with this amazing soundtrack is so... interesting to me. Like it has so many elements of a so bad it's good movie, but it has these bangers of songs and just and like songs that feel more and more profound the more times you hear them and the more you actually get to hearing the lyrics because the first time you're just bombarded with everything, right? You have no idea what anyone is saying or talking about or doing.
00:39:09
Speaker
But with, you know, repeated exposure to it, it's like you start to actually piece together what the hell they're talking about. And like, that's where the meat of everything is. And it's just so, it's wild.
00:39:21
Speaker
It's such a wild amalgamation of things. Yeah. I'm curious, because I've seen this stated a lot, that it's like a ah bad movie. Is it because it's so like over the top? Because I will say that I don't view it as such. Like, i I totally understand, like, watching, like, I don't know, Twitches, for example.
00:39:46
Speaker
Like, that to me not a good movie. But, like, I can't get over, sorry, I know this is an aside, but I cannot get over how, like, cheap the clothing looks in that movie. Like, it's Disney. You have money. i don't get it Anyways, to me, that's like, yeah, it's not a good movie, but it's fun. It's it could be campy, whatever.
00:40:12
Speaker
I actually think Rocky Horror is good. I think it's weird and it's over the top, but I think it's on purpose. But maybe I'm missing something because some sometimes the way my brain works, I don't I don't get what other people get.
00:40:27
Speaker
But I'm curious if you don't mind like explaining what that means to you. Totally. And I think that this is also something that like exists within horror specifically. And I want to be really clear that I don't when I say bad movie, because i you're probably not the only person who's wondering this.
00:40:43
Speaker
When I say bad movie, I don't mean that it's not a good movie. I mean that it has the qualities of like a capital B, bad, capital M, movie, TM, as that exists in like the horror lexicon.
00:40:56
Speaker
And some of that is like some of the sound is off at certain point. Like there are like little, there are like like these things about it and and they almost contribute to the like uncanny nature of the film. So they kind of like work But like some of the sound is off. Some of the mixing is like not like particularly like for Columbia's parts, the mixing of her voice is like pretty bad.
00:41:18
Speaker
um The laser beams at the end are like so bad. I mean, I love like and i it's like one of my favorite parts. Like I love them. But that's that's like the stuff I'm talking about when I say a bad movie. It's like a bad movie.
00:41:30
Speaker
Like more in the technical aspects? In the technical aspects and then I think the cheesy aspects. but But it's not a bad movie in that it's like a movie that isn't good and like people shouldn't like don't want to watch.
00:41:42
Speaker
It's like it's like so bad it's good but then it's also good on top of that. it's I don't even really know how to it's like such an it's such a like ephemeral concept in my brain that it's like hard to even fully explain but it's like a term that I would only use really about like horror and sci-fi movies.
00:42:00
Speaker
I love that. Thank you for explaining that because i that actually makes a lot of sense. And i I can see that clearer now. And and the I probably just don't have that context of having watched as many horror movies as most people, but certainly not as much as you. So and I appreciate that.
00:42:18
Speaker
Yeah. And like i like I say, I mean it as such a term of endearment. Like it's not it's not meant as derogatory. It's not meant as a like to take anything away. it's It's part of the beauty. I actually don't think that fixing the like quote unquote bad elements would make it better.
00:42:35
Speaker
Like I actually think it would probably make it much less enjoyable, much less impactful. Like there's something about the way that the bad and good come together in this movie that makes it dare I say flawless.
00:42:48
Speaker
um I know that like that would be a really hot take and I know that there are flaws. Like I know there are like gender and sexuality flaws to the movie. I think there are questionable reads about those. I think there are also reads on those that are more generous that I tend to align with more.
00:43:04
Speaker
um There are consent issues in this movie. Like I understand that this movie is not flawless, but it's so much bigger than the sum of its parts that it does really feel that way to me.
00:43:15
Speaker
I completely agree. And I mean, one of my favorite movies, Pride and Prejudice, 2005, 2004, 2005. two thousand and five Damn it. forget.
00:43:26
Speaker
One of those years. There are some parts of that movie, like certain shots or the way the camera moves that like, I really don't think. like works well but that's as a whole i still love the movie and if it were different I'd be sad like if someone like fixed those things I'd be like oh no that's no no no that's I don't care like i can point out certain things that makes a movie less than perfect but then as a whole, the movie could be perfect to me.
00:43:55
Speaker
And that's, to yeah, I agree in that. I think that's what Rocky Horror is. It's like, I can point out this and that and this and the other and then be like, but like five stars. Right. Like many criticisms, but please do not change it. Like don't change a thing. But yeah, so so after our intro, we get into like the first kind of song proper. And so we have like the damn it Janet sequence. And so this is where we see our main characters, Brad and Janet. They're coming out of a wedding
00:44:26
Speaker
and You can actually, you i need you hear i'll let you I'll let you talk about what the wedding scene is like. It's really fun. um So I don't know when the first time I would have noticed this would have been. but And the first time anyone watches this movie, you won't notice this. But basically, um you have Brad and Janet. There's like a whole sequence happening.
00:44:49
Speaker
But in the background, you can actually see the characters of Riff Raff, Magenta, and Frankenfurter. And they are dressed as the American Gothic characters, basically, like from that famous painting.
00:45:01
Speaker
And think the painting is somewhere either in this scene or in the movie. I'm pretty sure there's lots of famous paintings in this movie. um And so they serve as the chorus ah for the song Dammit Janet.
00:45:14
Speaker
And they just repeat after Janet and Brad and at certain points, like Brad will say something and then they'll just be like, Janet. And like a super deadpan voice.
00:45:25
Speaker
I just really love it um It's a super like... The song itself, I think, is basically like a satire of a traditional American couple, especially like... It almost looks like they could be from the 50s, but I'm pretty sure the movie sets them in contemporary, like, 1970s. But actually had to look that up because i was like, this feels very 50s for a minute. They're just super like...
00:45:49
Speaker
You know, innocent is not maybe the exact word, but probably prudish, super like mainstream clothes. They're they're polite. They're like super quote unquote normal, right? Like the all American stereotype.
00:46:04
Speaker
So one of the callbacks is like very often someone will be like, I see you back there and or like some variation on that to like identify that if you're in the know that you can see the three of them in the background.
00:46:17
Speaker
And so that's kind of fun. But if you don't know what they're pointing to, like they don't always say the name. So you might be like, what are it like? i don't know what they're referring to. I guess I'll find out. But Brad and Janet are totally presented to us at the beginning of this movie know as like a caricature of the heterosexual American couple, 100%. One of my favorite essays in Absolute Pleasure was by Magdalene Visaggio. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that name right.
00:46:43
Speaker
And this one is called To Find the Truth, I've Even Lied. And it talks about like the lies contained within the movie and like the lies that get broken down. And so I'm going to... And so I'm going to talk about this more at the end because like we get we like break through all of this stuff.
00:47:00
Speaker
But they talk about how this caricature of the two of them is in itself a lie. And so they write at the wedding in the film's opening scene, Janet catches the bouquet and then Brad proposes.
00:47:12
Speaker
It's easy. It's simple. It's quaint. And it's the movie's first lie, because Brad and Janet are, neither of them, the uncomplicated caricatures they first appear to be as they perform the essential act of heteronormativity.
00:47:26
Speaker
It's an act not meaningfully different than what the actors themselves were doing on set, reciting their lines and hitting their marks. These two kids met in college.
00:47:37
Speaker
They're leaving their friend's wedding, who also met at the same college. They're all friends. They catch the bouquet. They are supposed to get married. That's what's supposed to come next for them. And so that's what they're doing.
00:47:49
Speaker
And they're dancing through like a cemetery as this is happening. And there's like a funeral happening at the cemetery. And so there's this like dark thing of the two of them like lost in this little world that neither of them seems that invested in. But they're really like in a there and cemetery while this is happening, which feels like that should be ominous and foreshadowing something.
00:48:09
Speaker
But it's almost like you, it's easy to not even think about it or notice it, which is kind of funny. To be fully honest, I don't think I ever have noticed that. I think when I was doing some more research on the background or or like the plot, just to make sure that I understood what I needed to understand, i think it mentioned that. And I was like, wait, actually, like, I just don't think I ever, I ever processed that.
00:48:31
Speaker
um And it's just, that's just really funny. I love dichotomies like that in in specific shots or just overall in film when there's like such um things that are at such odds with each other.
00:48:45
Speaker
The cemetery thing also is one of my favorite callbacks. yeah I'm just going to like, as I think, I didn't write them in my notes because I was like, I would just be writing every single one, but I'm going to just mention my favorite ones as we like touch on them.
00:48:56
Speaker
And in this scene, one of my favorite ones is like one person in the theater or like a few people will say, who put this billboard in my cemetery? And then like someone else will say, who put this cemetery in front of my billboard? And like, that's always one of my favorite callbacks.
00:49:12
Speaker
um And it's like, it's just so funny because the billboard is as funny as the proposal. Like it's, it's the, it's like the thing about like Denton being like the place to find happiness or whatever. And it's like in front of a cemetery, the whole thing.
00:49:28
Speaker
It tricks you into not realizing how absurd it is, but once you've seen the whole thing and you've taken the whole thing in and you know that it's an hour and a half of pure absurdity, this opening sequence just becomes so ridiculous.
00:49:43
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And as much as all these, you know, it's supposed to represent such an all American, like pure, obviously white situation of getting married. You do have something really interesting, which is that Brad and Janet's friends who just got married, they have their wedding car pull up to the church.
00:50:02
Speaker
And I'm assuming the groom spray painted on it or someone painted on it You know, normally you just paint ah just married or you'd have a just married sign on the car.
00:50:12
Speaker
But you see the text and it says, wait till tonight spelled T-O-N-I-T-E. That's important. um She got hers. Now he'll get his. And I think that's so...
00:50:24
Speaker
like funny to me in the sense that that's clearly so gross and implying that marriage is to just please women like all girls want you know all girls dream of getting married when they're older is so now okay fine he gave in they're they're getting married but now of course they're going to go and have sex and that's his reward or that's for him And it's i always find that funny because i'm like, yeah, see, like, traditional American values, quote unquote, are actually just so fucking gross across the board. Like, whether it's meant to be super pure or super sexual, like, in both ways, it's still very patriarchal.
00:51:06
Speaker
Absolutely. They are like the good Christians, right? And we do find out later in the movie that Brad and Janet are not having sex. They're waiting until marriage. So we can only assume... that Ralph and Betty of of this wedding are probably doing the same thing.
00:51:22
Speaker
Another thing about this song, sorry, this is kind of a tangent, but another thing that I think is so funny about this song is that after Brad gives Janet the ring, the first thing she says is, it's nicer than Betty Monroe had.
00:51:38
Speaker
The ring is already a prop to her. It's not really a symbol of anything. It's just a symbol of like her acceptance into this world that she is living in. Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's totally not... It's not very romantic. I mean, the whole song is kind of like them being super happy with each other, and it's, like, cute on face value.
00:51:59
Speaker
But, yeah, it's very, like, this is what we're... Like you said, like, this is what we're supposed to do as a hetero couple, and... But because I'm a woman, I'm supposed to, like, fawn over this ring, and it's supposed to be, like, the best day of my life, and, like... But, yeah, it's very...
00:52:15
Speaker
it is kind of transactional. And just what I love about this movie is this setup. Like we didn't have to necessarily have the scene. It could have just, I mean, i don't know how else this movie could have started necessarily, but could have started a myriad of ways that could have worked.
00:52:30
Speaker
But I think it's really important to have this premise of like this young, sweet couple. They're so innocent, you know, like, and getting married, they're so excited. And then they go into this castle that's full of,
00:52:43
Speaker
crazy stuff happening. don't know. I think it's just like a really smart setup. Totally. Because like, like the quote says, right, like they're reciting their lines and hitting their marks. Like she squeals over the ring.
00:52:54
Speaker
He gets down on the ground. He drops the ring. I've always wondered if that was on purpose or not. I don't know think if that was just like what happened when they were filming and they kept it in, you know? Yeah. I've never looked it up. I actually wonder that too. And like,
00:53:07
Speaker
He, you know, he's talking about like, there's three ways that love can grow. That's good, bad or mediocre. Like it's, it's really not, it it tricks again, tricks you into thinking that it's romantic, but it's really not. Even when she's talking, she's like, now we're engaged. And I'm so glad that you met mom and no dad. I'm so glad that we've done all these formalities so that we can just keep doing these formalities.
00:53:27
Speaker
Very, very formal. Yes. So after this, they set off to drive to visit their old science teacher who kind of like set them up. He convinced Brad to ask Janet out when he was too shy, um maybe too gay. We'll get we'll unpack that later, I guess.
00:53:47
Speaker
But but he basically convinces them to get together. And so they're going to go visit him. Yeah, and they're driving through the rain. They pass by these motorcyclists going in the opposite direction.
00:54:01
Speaker
And Janet like remarks, like, this that's the third, so I forget what she says, like, the third time they've seen motorcyclists that night. And Brad goes, yes, Janet, life's pretty cheap to that type.
00:54:12
Speaker
And then the audience goes, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. cheap Oh, really? I didn't know that. Because I think some of the callbacks when I went to the stage production, I'm sure are like the same as when you see the movie. But I don't I don't know if that one if they did that one.
00:54:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's just that is, again, setting us up to be like, oh, look at this wonderful couple who's like so nice and sweet. And again, all American, like I'm repeating myself, but um and then contrasting it to to just people on motorcycles.
00:54:42
Speaker
Yeah. As if there's one type of person that might ride a motorcycle. But of course, you're meant to just assume that like it's people that live outside of the mainstream, ah outside of mainstream American values.
00:54:56
Speaker
And then they get a flat tire, essentially, or something happens with the tire. and They're still in the car and the rain is still pouring and they decide to go to this castle they saw a few miles back.
00:55:10
Speaker
And what I love about this scene is that you're actually seeing Brad and Janet through the windshield and the windshield wipers are going for a while, but then Brad turns them off eventually and they're still talking, but the rain like blurs their faces. And it's one of my favorite shots of the whole movie and of like cinema in general, because don't,
00:55:31
Speaker
feel like it's one of like the only times that when there's a car scene, you see the actors through the windshield for that long. like Normally, directors would shoot inside the car because and also usually it's not even like much of a real car I think on movie sets but this was like pretty practical looking and it's just like a beautiful ah beautiful moment of like blurring Brad and Janet to me what it symbolizes is like they're about to become different people or they're about to evolve in some way they're about to like who they are right now is blurring and they're going to transition into other people
00:56:06
Speaker
Yeah, totally. It feels intentional. It feels like we're looking at them through this like veiled lens because they have not quite like stepped into themselves yet. We're not seeing who who they really are. We're seeing what they're pretending to be.
00:56:19
Speaker
Another thing that's interesting about the scene in the car is that what they're listening to on the radio is actually um is Richard Nixon's resignation speech, which is so which I mean, I think like serves a couple of functions, right?
00:56:35
Speaker
It sets us up in time. So we know that we're like in basically today as far as the time the movie came out goes. i like I was so I wanted you to bring this up because I was like, yeah, what do you make of this?
00:56:48
Speaker
I mean, i guess it's like so it's I mean, it could be so many things. And I think it's part of why the movie feels so distinctly American, like you said, like as opposed to the stage show. But I think there's an element of like crumbling America that just like revolves around Nixon as a president.
00:57:06
Speaker
We don't have a whole lot of resignations of presidents like that seems kind of ah that there's something there about this being a time where we're like watching everything kind of fall apart.
00:57:19
Speaker
And they're still living in that space of traditional American couple. And like, they're about to kind of descend out of that at this moment where I think people feel like they've been watching like the decline of the American family. I talked about that kind of in my 70s episode, just about this like fear that was around everything and like distrust of the government and distrust of systems and all these things so I I don't know exactly what to make of it but there's definite like there's something there to pick at that makes perfect sense to me and they're not really reacting to it I think maybe Janet is she reading a newspaper or maybe she's reading a map I'm not sure newspaper yeah
00:58:00
Speaker
Oh yeah, because then she uses it to cover her head. they're Yeah, they're not reacting to the radio. And there is like tiny moments of silence in the scene as they're driving to which they could have inserted some kind of line about it. But they just kind of let it linger in the air. I think it's it's a good move on the movie's part of just like letting it be somewhat in the background.
00:58:23
Speaker
Right. And I feel like the whole movie is such a commentary on the time that it doesn't, we don't need to comment on it directly in that moment. And then the next sequence is actually also one of my favorites.
00:58:36
Speaker
ah So you they go out into the rain and walk towards the castle. And so then this is the song over at the Frankenstein place, which is like such a funny...
00:58:46
Speaker
like, line in the song and, like, a funny title because they're letting you know, like, this place is weird. Like, weird shit's going to happen in this place. So Brad and Janet are singing as they approach the castle. And again, a really beautiful song. The music is really deep, in my opinion. I think it's really...
00:59:06
Speaker
meaningful. And I hesitate to take anything in this movie too literally. But if you're just listening to the lyrics without too much context of the rest of the movie, you can see it as like they're they're talking about letting light into life, like light overcoming darkness.
00:59:25
Speaker
I just think it's like really fascinating. fascinating It's fascinating lyrics. Yeah. I mean, every song in this movie is like almost like super independent from each other.
00:59:35
Speaker
Like there's so many different styles and genres of music in this musical. I think that's what makes it really fun as well. Kind of like a Frankenstein musical.
00:59:46
Speaker
um Right. So I'm curious, like. what how you interpret this song. Yeah, I have, I'm curious what you'll think, I'm curious what you'll think of my interpretation. and And some things I didn't put in my notes because they're just thoughts that I've had so many times that they didn't really, I like wrote things in the notes that I would not be able to remember.
01:00:07
Speaker
But my take on this song is metaphorical light and literal darkness. It comes back to that midnight quote about like what midnight means and like what it means to be able to like become yourself in the night at like, like without the risk of the expectations of the daytime. And so it's like, there's a light in the darkness almost being like, and I think I take this because I take it in the context of the whole movie and not just the movie, but the whole phenomenon and the community of like,
01:00:37
Speaker
There's this beautiful thing waiting for you where you don't expect it to be. And it's always going to be there. And I like the idea, right, of like there's a light in the darkness of everybody's life because I think we do all have that. Like, and for some people it's queerness. For some people it's just like their weird their weirdness that doesn't get to breathe often enough. But I just think we all have ah these things that like need...
01:01:05
Speaker
I don't want to say privacy or like shadow, but that need an arena that has closed itself off from these larger expectations to exist. And so I think of it as that. It's like moving into the darkness to feel the light, almost.
01:01:20
Speaker
I love that so much. i would agree with that for sure. but think there's also an element. I don't know if this will be the right word, but an element of like this place is going to save them in some way because they are literally looking for help. Right there.
01:01:35
Speaker
Their car broke down and they see a light and they go, great, someone's going to help us. But I would go further as to say that what they're about to enter is an experience is going to save them from their normie selves and save them from their head heteronormative, like literally heteronormative lives.
01:01:54
Speaker
um And that's that is a good thing. And even though bad things happen throughout the movie. um They're going to discover things about themselves that they never would have if they hadn't gone to the castle.
01:02:07
Speaker
And in some ways, I wish we got a bit more of and a bit of a longer ending. um Spoiler alert, after Frank Converter dies, like I wish we had seen maybe a bit more of Brad and Janet before the movie ended to fully capture how they're now changed people.
01:02:24
Speaker
But in any case, you know that they're leaving that place. As the criminologist who narrates the story tells us, they are definitely going to be, it's going a night. He says something, the effects can be a night. They'll ah remember for a very long time. a very long time.
01:02:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing about Rocky Horror and all of these songs is that Rocky Horror has become something that does not belong to its creators anymore, which I think happens with all art, but I think it is like happened on a profound level with Rocky Horror that what I might have thought all of this stuff meant in the context of seeing it in the 70s when it didn't have this established community and like structure built around it might have been totally different, but this is all informed by my experiences with it and what it's meant in my life and like
01:03:15
Speaker
them communitye Yeah, the community built around it. So it's so hard to take things out of that context, too. So, like, everything I'm saying is, like, so... And I think that's one of the things about the movie, too, is, like, it's such a mirror.
01:03:26
Speaker
um One of the things I noticed, especially when I was reading this essay collection... And something I appreciated about the collection was that it was not a collection of essays that were in agreement with each other.
01:03:37
Speaker
Like, yeah and and I have quotes that will disagree with each other, I think, even in the episode. But there are so many lenses to take on the characters, the songs, the story. Like, they're so, it it shows you what you need to see from it.
01:03:55
Speaker
And so i think I say that to say that like if anyone is listening and their read on anything is like completely 180 different than mine, that's beautiful and lovely and like keep it. You know, like, i I really think that, like, we get what... it's It's something that gives us what we need, particularly. And that might change day to day, year to year, and person to person. So, like, this is where I'm at right now with Rocky Horror.
01:04:20
Speaker
And I don't think it is where I've always been, and I don't think it's where I'll always be. And I think that's also one of the really beautiful things about it. That's very true. And as much as I don't remember, like, my first time watching this movie...
01:04:34
Speaker
I feel like it must have contributed to who I was as a person, just in the sense that I've known these songs, at the very least, for so much of my life. And even though growing up, I didn't know, I didn't have any close family or friends that were at least out as gay at the time. Like I didn't know anyone for a long time who was gay. I did grow up in a musical theater household. And then my dad co-founded a musical theater association for students. So like, I obviously like knew about gay people and either knew gay people just like super as acquaintances, or then obviously eventually,
01:05:11
Speaker
like as friends and then myself, but like all that to say that, like, I think just knowing that Rocky Horror existed could only have helped me as a human being. Like I, I feel like if I had only started, if I'd only watched this for the first time, like, I don't know, like a year ago,
01:05:29
Speaker
I don't know what kind of person I would have been. Like, it's one of those things that's like leaves a really indelible mark on you. i think especially the younger you see it. Like, I'm not shocked by anything in it. I'm shocked that it was came out such a long time ago. That's what shocks me. But I'm not shocked with what's in it.
01:05:47
Speaker
And I feel like if I was someone different, maybe I would be. i don't know. I don't know what I'm trying to get at. But I'm just so grateful that I knew about it for so much of my life. Yeah, that makes so much sense.
01:05:59
Speaker
It's just so impactful. It's like if you are like the other quote about how the people who get sucked in are getting sucked in from that first moment. If you are one of those people, this movie is going to have an impact on you.
01:06:12
Speaker
You may not realize it right away, or it may be like an earth shattering moment for you. Like I think both of those things can be true. But you will over time realize find the little ways that it has been so meaningful and I think that's part of the beauty of it too and this song is also kind of interesting because it's the most like uh it's the most like straightforwardly like sounds like from a musical It doesn't sound like it's from something crazy as much. A little bit when Riff Raff comes in, but like not so much.
01:06:45
Speaker
But yeah, and they and so they're walking and they're singing this song that sounds kind of normal still, but we can kind of tell we're getting less normal as we move through the song and closer to the castle. Then when they get to the castle...
01:06:58
Speaker
you know, they knock at the door and Riff Raff is like, you're wet. And Janet is like, yes, it's raining. And they're both kind of like, what the hell's going on? And they get inside. And this is, this is like top five callbacks for me is someone, this is just at the theater I go to, like, I don't really know, but like at the theater I go to someone will often go, describe the White House right before Brad says it's probably some kind of hunting lodge for rich weirdos.
01:07:24
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I just think it's great when the callback is a call before like leading into a line. And there's a lot of those. There's a lot. And those are some of my favorites, I think, where you're like preempting what's about to be said. That's always really fun. But yes, they get to the castle and then we get to the time warp, which is obviously...
01:07:45
Speaker
Like the most iconic thing from the show. i think a lot of people know this song without knowing anything else about Rocky Horror. Like this has really entered just like pop culture knowledge.
01:07:58
Speaker
you want to set the scene for the time warp? god It starts with this like, is it a guitar like riff or whatever? It's just like, I'm about to have the best fucking three minutes of my life. Like it's about to be a party.
01:08:13
Speaker
So there there is actually a party happening at the castle and it's the annual Transylvanian convention, except that people talk about Transylvania as very often in, you know, vampire movies and where vampires come from, that sort of thing.
01:08:28
Speaker
except in this case, it's an actual galaxy. um We'll get to what the planet's called in a second. But so there's a convention happening. i think one and person has like a little Irish flag with them that I'm always like, that's so cute. Like just like a little flag.
01:08:43
Speaker
um So anyways, it's basically talking about a specific dance that you can do called the Time Warp. Apart from that, the lyrics are just, I don't know what to make of this song. It's just super fun. And the chorus is,
01:08:58
Speaker
the actual instructions for the dance, like the criminologist um that the movie cuts to every so often. He actually pulls down, ah and don't even know what you call it, but like a poster of some sort and like points to the dance moves, like in a really clinical way, which is super fun. And several of the characters get their own ah verse.
01:09:21
Speaker
Magenta is, she's such a vibe. Like I love how she moves and how she talks. Columbia has a really outgoing party outfit.
01:09:33
Speaker
And you just like can't not dance. Like it's telling you to do certain dance moves. You got to do them. And the dance is so simple, which I think like adds to the fun. Like it's very like you can do it the first time you see the movie. It's not like you're out it's not like hard.
01:09:50
Speaker
I did it this morning while cleaning the bathroom. Like you could do both at the same time. I love that for you. The callbacks in this movie are great. I am not. i I am not going to talk about all of them because I will spend an hour talking about them. But yeah, the lyrics are kind of all about losing control and like being overcome by your senses and by what's around you and the darkness.
01:10:14
Speaker
But I think the most important lyrically, I think the most important verse is Columbia's because Columbia is a human. Riff Raff and Magenta are Transylvanians, which are aliens.
01:10:27
Speaker
the We'll get into it. But Columbia is a human who has been like taken in by this group. And I do think that that makes her verse feel really different. And so her verse is about she's like walking around and this guy winks at her and you know she goes with him. And the last line of it, the last two lines is, he stared at me and I felt a change. Time meant nothing, never would again.
01:10:52
Speaker
Her verse particularly is less about like losing control and like getting caught in a whirlwind of senses and situations. It's like much more about, I think, her being taken in by Frankenfurter, right? And like her being taken in by this group and like realizing that she is fundamentally changed forever in the same way that we are about to watch happen to Brad and Janet.
01:11:16
Speaker
yeah I love that read on it. I have to admit, i never really had the conscious thought that Columbia is not from their planet. ah I just never thought about it.
01:11:29
Speaker
But now like, oh, right. It makes sense now that you've said it. But she's such a core part of their group. And I guess that would have also made sense with like her relationship with Eddie as well. But and yeah, that that is clicking for me now. So thank you.
01:11:45
Speaker
Yeah. I love the time warp. I love the party of it. And when the time warp ends, Brad and Janet are like backing away. They don't know what to do. And I love this part. And the callbacks here is...
01:11:58
Speaker
before and after the line. So before the line, someone will say, say something stupid. And then Brad said, say, does anyone know how to Madison? And then in the audience, he'll say, I said, say something stupid, not say something stupid.
01:12:14
Speaker
that. Yeah, I do know that like when I went to see it, ah live production of it last year, like after almost everything Brad says, there's like a derogatory callback for him. And I really like that.
01:12:27
Speaker
Yes, I also really like that. And... Yeah, so he is trying to still play the part of the big strong man. Janet is scared of everything that's going on.
01:12:38
Speaker
And the elevator starts to lower behind them. And we just hear the tapping of heels on the ground. And we finally get to meet Frankenfurter.
01:12:50
Speaker
Can I read this quote about Frankenfurter in this entry? Please, because it is one of the most... delicious entrances in cinema history.
01:13:03
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. So in Jane Claire Bradley's essay, it says, our first glimpse of Dr. Frankenfurter's tapping rhinestone heels as he descends in the elevator to join the party.
01:13:16
Speaker
excess, glamour, punk rock but with glitter. And then they go on to say, it was Frank Inverter who taught me how so much of queer glamour, queer charisma, and queer power gets its potency and impact from precisely this ambiguity. So, or maybe I'll get into that one after we talk about the song more.
01:13:36
Speaker
But he comes in and he's cloaked up and you see these amazing heels and the makeup is amazing and Tim Curry is just amazing. And he's like cloaked up and he's introing. And like as the song moves through itself, we like throw the cloak off and reveal the sparkly corset and the fishnets and the whole the whole look comes together. And it's just like chef's kiss perfection.
01:14:05
Speaker
It is. And think it's a great moment to talk about a lot of the terms that are being used. um so the song is called Sweet Transvestite.
01:14:16
Speaker
um i honestly, this might be my favorite song of the whole movie. And he says specifically in it that he's just a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania.
01:14:27
Speaker
And That's a lot of words. That's ah a lot of words that we do not use anymore in everyday speech. And i just, I'm coming at this from being a cis person. And so anything that I say,
01:14:43
Speaker
about this, you know, does not hold as much water as as trans people. Like, totally, I'm accepting of that. But I have always processed this song as like, such a cool punk rock, fun song.
01:14:59
Speaker
campy, exciting song. And like, again, this is the song that makes me think like, how the fuck did this movie get made and put on cinema screens? How how did, you know, the US government not ban it? Like, i I'm...
01:15:16
Speaker
Just shocked that it was made when it was made, just in terms of how society was at the time, not because I think queer people didn't exist at the time. So i I would just love to know like how you process it.
01:15:28
Speaker
i I think it's a... We can get into the like the detail the details of the song. There's like the breaking of the fourth wall. he looks at the camera so... Like I cannot even think of the words to describe it. Deliciously. you Just deliciously. like Tim Curry's performance is one for the history books, but I understand that it can evoke really strong feelings for people just because of the terminology. So I'll throw it at you. Like, how do you process this song?
01:15:58
Speaker
Yeah. Well, some of it is just like the date, right? Like we, we just use differently go now. Some of it, I think comes down to like back to this mirror of like, what is it that you want to see in Frank?
01:16:10
Speaker
Because I think to some people, Frank is a woman, like Frank is a trans woman. i don't read Frank that way. I read Frank as someone who is engaged in such a high level of gender fuckery.
01:16:21
Speaker
um Because I think that's what I resonate with more. so When I think of I actually know some people today who do refer to themselves as transsexuals. And so I'm interested. i would love to like hear what those people would say, i guess, about this.
01:16:40
Speaker
And a transvestite is a different thing than a trans person. Like a transvestite is actually a thing. And I think we sometimes forget that because oftentimes transgender people are called transvestites in a derogatory way.
01:16:54
Speaker
But a transvestite is like someone who gets their kicks dressing as a woman. It's not someone who is a woman. And I actually think that that seems accurate for Frank. I don't know that Frank is a cis man. Like, I don't know that that feels accurate. And Frank is an alien. Like, to be clear, Frank is like outside of all of this anyway. Frank is an alien. That's a great, um yeah, that's, that is it, right? Like, yes, I see Frank as an alien who has like taken in information about Earth and like the people on Earth, right?
01:17:26
Speaker
and gets his kicks, whether it's like sexual or just like empowerment, whatever kicks they are out of putting on these heels and these fishnets and this corset and doing his makeup.
01:17:37
Speaker
I don't know that it's an inaccurate assessment of him, actually. i think it's totally valid to be offended. Like, i I think like if someone tells me that this is upsetting to them or this feels inappropriate or wrong, I'm not going to tell them that they're wrong. Like, I think I see the validity there.
01:17:53
Speaker
my read of him is not
Exploring Frank's Influence on Identity and Norms
01:17:55
Speaker
a trans woman. Like, that's not how I perceive him at all. That doesn't mean that if someone else perceives him that way, that they're wrong. I just don't think I'm wrong either. Like, i think I think that, like I said, I think this movie is really a mirror and you see in it what you need to.
01:18:09
Speaker
And I just see playing. I see playing around with gender and self-expression. And that's what Frank represents to me. So to me...
01:18:23
Speaker
I kind of take no issue with it. Yeah, I honestly think i process it the exact same way. i i Again, the the the terminology is shocking to me just that it was put on and on a movie screen. It's not actually...
01:18:39
Speaker
shocking to me in other ways. And I totally understand and agree with that vibe of like, he's playing and like, that's, to me, that's what queerness is. Like, it's not one thing, but I think what queerness really boils down to is breaking out of norms and and not feeling the need to ah to just be anything like to, I don't know. I'm not eloquent right now, but it just, to me is like, it's a song that embodies what queerness is at least to me. So I don't, I really appreciate your thoughts on that.
01:19:15
Speaker
That's exactly what it is. and And I think we'll get more into this later, but I think that we can kind of see a little bit of Richard O'Brien's like kind of problematic perspectives here, not in the language so much, but in the playing in gender. And, you know, like he in his discussions of gender comes back to this idea of like a natural woman or a real woman and says very problematic things that I think people are right to be offended by and I think are harmful.
01:19:45
Speaker
But I think that there is a part of him beneath all of his own self-loathing that knows that there is no such thing and is not able to accept that within himself enough to communicate it in a way that doesn't sound horrible. And I'm not saying people shouldn't be upset with him. Like, I'm not trying to defend him.
01:20:04
Speaker
I'm just saying I feel like I see what's going on there. And I think that this is the first moment in the movie where I feel like I see what's going on there. But in the Jane Claire Bradley essay in Absolute Pleasure, they write, It was Frank Inverter who taught me how so much of queer glamour, queer charisma, and queer power gets its potency and impact from following desire and embracing the strange unknown and extremes.
01:20:30
Speaker
He sets the other characters on a journey of experimentation, expansion, and ultimately defiance. And we could argue that this is a necessary function of Frank. It's a hell of a responsibility being the loudest, most glamorous, and almost literally balls-out seductive, sexy, and psychotic leader of any circle or subculture.
01:20:49
Speaker
But in embodying this role, Frank gives those around him a permission slip towards their own arcs of discovery. So this is the role he's given in the movie, but it's also the role that the movie takes on, I think, for so many of its viewers, right? So this playing in it and this deciding to be, because at some point, and we don't see this happen, but at some point, Frank decided to be this way, right? Decided to be the most glamorous person in the room, decided to be the sexiest and most seductive person in the room at all times, to not just embody it, but to believe it about himself.
01:21:22
Speaker
And I think that that is... so embodied in the song that the song couldn't be any different than it is and still work it just couldn't also I know this is like less serious but I really appreciate his little dance moves there's one moment that he does like this little shoulder roll thing with Columbia and the amount of joy and like dopamine I get from watching that is so high like it's absolutely adorable I love that
01:21:54
Speaker
And then we get towards the end of the song and we get a line that is one of my favorite lines ever, which is that Frankenfurter has gone back into the elevator and he's inviting Brad and Janet up to the lab with him because he is like essentially a mad scientist as well as a really cool person.
01:22:15
Speaker
He invites them up to go see this creation of his. And he says, i see you shiver with anticipation. Right. And so he like deliberately holds out um the word anticipation. And it's like, oh, it's so good.
01:22:31
Speaker
so and the callback for that moment is begging him to say it. Oh, yes. The whole audience is just going, say it, say it. say it um in like varying degrees of seriousness and almost like sexy begging. Like it's so, it's so like the tones that come out are so different, but it's so fun. And that whole sequence is so fun.
01:22:51
Speaker
And there's the line too, where the whole thing is right. Come up to the lab and see what's on the slab. I see you shiver with anticipation. patient And then he says, but maybe the rain isn't really to blame. So I'll remove the cause, but not the symptom.
01:23:09
Speaker
And he doesn't totally clarify this, but like Janet is wet and shaking. And he's saying, I'll remove the cause and he leaves.
01:23:21
Speaker
So he's like, the rain is not doing this to you. I am doing this to you. So I'm gonna get out of here for a minute, let you cool off. ah And I just think that is so iconic. And like you said, iconic is going to be a word we keep coming back to because that was basically invented to talk about this movie. That was my Letterboxd review for my latest rewatch. It's just like the word iconic was invented for this. Like I don't, what other word is more perfect?
01:23:47
Speaker
um Yeah, I love that. um I also love that, well, love, this is a weird moment, I guess, but they, Columbia, someone, they start undressing Brad and Janet in order to go up to the lab, because they're going to give them these, like, lab coats.
01:24:05
Speaker
But it's just like a, it's like, what is happening? Why are all of a sudden, why they removing their clothes? But I think it could also, it could be like yet another phase of their transformation, which is like, take off your normie clothes,
01:24:18
Speaker
And you're about to go experience something very otherworldly. You have to like look and dress different to do that. Yeah, one of I don't have a quote for this, but one of the essays in the book talks about this moment and how Brad is like putting on airs of like, oh, like we'll pull out the aces when the time is right. And he's pretending that he's going to defend Janet.
01:24:38
Speaker
But it seems that he is very okay with this and that there's a part of him that just wants this and wants to let this happen. And I think that's the start of the breakdown of like Brad's masculinity and character is that he is...
01:24:52
Speaker
just letting himself be undressed. He's a passive experience. He's passively experiencing the moment and just like letting it happen. Yeah. Yeah. I like that read. um So they go up to the lab and Frank and Fritter is in another really, so sorry, but iconic outfit.
01:25:12
Speaker
Basically the way I describe it is that it's housewife meets scientist. So he's wearing like this green lab coat, but he has on these, this necklace of pearls.
01:25:23
Speaker
He has these pink, what they called? Like latex. If you really look at them, they're not even really latex gloves. They look like dish gloves. Yes. Yeah. yeah But he's still in his high heels, you know? And so he just looks like it's like a trad wife, but queer.
01:25:39
Speaker
Like, I don't know. Like it's kind of that, but what I will point out that I love the most is that he's wearing a pink triangle on the lab coat. ah What I've always found weird about it until I finally looked it up was I couldn't tell if, like, with um when I watched the movie, it looks red on screen.
01:25:58
Speaker
But the symbol of the pink triangle is was already known to me. And so I finally was like, OK, is this the reference? I think it is. And it is. So basically,
Thematic Dynamics in Rocky Horror's Musical Numbers
01:26:07
Speaker
um the triangle was a symbol that the Nazis used in concentration camps for ah gay men, perhaps gay people in general. I'm not entirely sure about that. um And the, and it's used and it's meant to point downwards, but with Frankenfurter, he's wearing the pink triangle pointing upwards.
01:26:27
Speaker
And nowadays that's more used as a symbol of gay pride to kind of subvert the atrocities of what went on with the ah original pink triangle.
01:26:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I feel like that's a really important piece of it, right? Like it's, it's, uh, This film does not talk so much about queer tragedy, but it does make sure that, like, we know that he knows, almost.
01:26:58
Speaker
Because for all, like, without that, maybe he just thinks everything's fine. Like, he he's an alien. He's an alien. Like, we have to keep reminding ourselves, like, he's an alien.
01:27:09
Speaker
He could very easily not know about that. And here he is wearing the symbol, right? so So we have some inkling that he knows that the world that these humans are coming from is not really a safe world. It's not really a world that allows this level of gender fuckery to exist.
01:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And then the next sequence is basically the creation of Rocky. um So it's also fun because like you start to see that Janet is starting to like really fawn over Frankenfurter and like she's starting to really be like really coquettish and like.
01:27:47
Speaker
enamored with him, which is nice. um And Frankenfurter has to manipulate like 10 different machines. um And then he like, there's a whole sequence, a really long sequence of him turning knobs of, and different colors are like shooting out. And then he has to close each one. And it's just really frantic and chaotic and really fun.
01:28:07
Speaker
um But it creates this kind of like rainbow situation in which this creation of Rocky appears. And then I need to ask you about the next song. So this song is not on the like original movie...
01:28:24
Speaker
album for whatever reason it's the sword of Damocles um basically it's Rocky singing and he's he's literally just been born except he's like a fully grown man with abs and ah like I don't know what's going on like I don't like he's just like having an existential crisis basically like he was born and then he's immediately like guys I'm so fucking depressed And I just find it like, it's hysterical to me.
01:28:52
Speaker
yeah Well, and I would say that like, based on what you just said, you do know what's going on. Like it's, it's it that is like basically all there is to it. um I would say like like lyrically, the song is very like doom and gloom.
01:29:05
Speaker
I mean, the opening, right? The sword of Damocles is hanging over my head and I get the feeling someone's going to be cutting the thread. So he has an imminent sense of doom and mortality from the moment that he is birthed or created or whatever.
01:29:18
Speaker
And, you know, he says his life is a misery. His life is a mystery. Like, he is no, he's literally, ah like, just born yesterday, as and but but a man. Like, he's that trope, but a man. And he is. He's having an existential crisis. And he in one of the essays, I don't have a quote for this, but in one of the essays, the person writing about this song describes him as, like, a mayfly. Like, he's born and he just knows that he, like, needs to fornicate and then die.
01:29:48
Speaker
And like that's his whole existence wrapped in a nutshell. And that is so scary. You're so right, though. The born sexy yesterday trope. i That's exactly what his character is.
01:30:03
Speaker
And this is probably like the only time it's shown through like a male character. Like I never put that together. but He's sexual, I mean, he's created to be sexual, a sexual being for Frankenfurter. Like that's what I guess the next song is about the I Can Make You A Man, um which is just, yeah, Frankenfurter just being like, so it's funny, like he's explicit, but while using tons and tons and tons of euphemisms, but the way that the song is sung, it's like just so sexual.
01:30:37
Speaker
But there's one line that I love right before that song starts. where Magenta and Riff Raff are basically complimenting Frank and Furter's work in creating Rocky. And then Columbia goes, he's okay.
01:30:49
Speaker
It's just like, and he goes, okay. I think we can do better than that. And the call back there, like after she says he's okay is get your tits off my tank.
01:31:01
Speaker
I mean, yes. Cause like she shrugs, but she's like, resting on top of the tank that he was and she pulls back when he goes when he like flips out and then he's like I didn't make him for you like whatever and he's showing him off and he goes and he asks Janet what she thinks and I love this Janet says I don't like men with too many muscles and then the audience call back in that which is first of all a lie and second of all the audience call back for that is just one big one yes that was one that people shouted last year yes yeah
01:31:33
Speaker
And then, yeah, let me get right into I can make you a man. And it's all workout euphemisms and is sexual innuendo. There's my dog howling. Hold on one second.
01:31:46
Speaker
Oh, it's so cute.
01:31:53
Speaker
She does that at Sirens. um It's all sexual innuendos and euphemisms and like, like sexy glances and working out and rippling muscles.
01:32:06
Speaker
And it's so funny because like, i I've talked about this with some of my friends, but there are some people who reach like a level of hotness where they are, where they stop being attractive and just become like kind of interesting And that's kind of how I feel about Rocky, like the rippling muscles.
01:32:22
Speaker
I'm like not attracted to him, but I'm like, how does your body do that? Like what's what's happening? Like while he's doing all these different workouts, I get concerned for people sometimes because I'm like, I don't know, there's a level of like going to the gym after which it's not actually healthy anymore. um And like this is obviously not the case in this movie, but just generally like if the yeah the gym is your whole life,
01:32:44
Speaker
I feel sad for you. i have to be honest. Like that's sad. Yeah, I'm with you. and And it's funny because even in the song, Frankenfurter says like such strenuous living. I just can't understand um as he's like encouraging Rocky to make his whole life about working out and staying sexy.
01:33:02
Speaker
And it's funny because in I Can Make You a Man, he says in just seven days, i can make you a man. And we have literally no like it is never clarified what that means or like what's going to happen in seven days because this skips ahead a little bit, but they immediately get married.
01:33:16
Speaker
And, like, have sex. So, like, I don't know what the seven days is about. And it's, like, never actually clarified. And so, like, the world may never know, but it is something I think about often.
01:33:27
Speaker
Because it's not even, like, that he created him in seven days. Because he just created him in five minutes. Right. So either way, the seven days is not talked about past the song. Right. And so there's I Can Make You a Man, and then there's a reprise. But in between...
01:33:43
Speaker
Our character Eddie bursts out of the freezer and we get the song Hot Patootie. And this, I mean, Sweet Transvestite is my favorite song, obviously, but this is very high up there for me. I love this song.
01:33:56
Speaker
I love how it characterizes Eddie. as just like, he just loves girls. And like, he just wants, and like not in a way that feels particularly creepy, actually.
01:34:08
Speaker
Later when he's represented by his uncle in the song about Eddie, it's much darker, but Eddie's representation of himself is like, I'm in the car with this girl. I'm swept away by her perfume. I'm fumbling with her belt as she's telling me she's all mine. Like it's, it's so like kind of weird. It's like sexual, but it's sexual in this very wholesome way.
01:34:28
Speaker
But it's wrapped in this like hard rock and roll and leather and like this really like butch guy. Like it's it's it's such an interesting dynamic with Eddie.
01:34:41
Speaker
Also, i just love the fact that he's been frozen in this vault for God knows how long. And when he bursts out, he has his saxophone with him. Like, it's just on his person and he plays it. And I'm like, yeah, sure.
01:34:55
Speaker
I love that for you. Yeah, I guess they wanted him to have it in the afterlife or whatever. but um But so we get Hoppatootie and he's riding his motorcycle around and he's dancing with Columbia and he swoops her up like she's nothing. And I just like, oh like, it's so good. It's so good. I want to be like swooped up and just picked up like I'm nothing so badly. Yeah.
01:35:18
Speaker
it's a really sweet moment. Like Columbia clearly loves him so much. She's so excited to see him. um And then her dreams are dashed because Frank and Furter kills him.
01:35:31
Speaker
i mean, is it really, i ah is it just cause he doesn't want him? Like what what, like why do, why does Frank and Furter even kill him?
01:35:42
Speaker
I think that it depends on your read. I mean, I think for one he's just done with him and he sees people as disposable, which is like a whole theme of the movie and Frank's downfall. I think the other side is like, he's jealous.
01:35:56
Speaker
He doesn't really want Columbia anymore and he doesn't really want Eddie anymore, but he sees them love each other and is like, no, no, no, no no no none of that. Like I have to be pole around which all of this revolves. And so if you two are loving each other in your own thing, that's unacceptable to me.
01:36:14
Speaker
Yeah, that that makes sense to me for sure. And Columbia is so much more like ingratiated than to their weird little family that she's not as disposable as Eddie is maybe that's my own whatever like interpretation but that's kind of how i look at it yeah and he's he's just so focused on his own pleasure And what he like, even just creating Rocky and then Columbia and Janet being like, Rocky's fine.
01:36:42
Speaker
And he's like, well, it's not for you. He's for me. And I think he's great. And you should agree with me. um So, of course, there is as much as he's like such an iconic character and he's so fun to watch. He obviously has flaws to him. The biggest of which is that, yeah, everything revolves around him.
01:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, and so after he kills Eddie, he pretty seamlessly goes into the I Can Make You A Man reprise. And I love this moment with Janet where he's singing about all the muscles and like all the different body parts and workouts and things.
01:37:19
Speaker
And then he opens his mouth to sing his next line. And instead of him singing the next line, we see and hear Janet ah like across the room saying,
01:37:30
Speaker
say I'm a muscle fan which I just think is so funny and then obviously brad is like what the fuck and she's like oh sorry it's so cute it's sung in such a high-pitched way and I do want to have a little aside to praise Susan Sarandon because I've heard her talk about how she was pretty scared to do this movie because she's not a singer I would say that's pretty obvious, ah but I think it's absolutely perfect for Janet.
01:38:02
Speaker
I think if Janet, in this movie at least, I think if Janet has like a super perfect singing voice, i I don't know what I think, but it just wouldn't work for me. And I don't think her voice sucks, actually. I think it's perfectly fine, but you can tell she's not a singer. So I don't know. It makes her feel like more real.
01:38:22
Speaker
And she does have a really high-pitched voice. like, lilt to it, and I think it just actually was, like, a perfect decision. Yeah, I totally agree. I think if it was too polished sounding, it would kind of take me out of it.
01:38:37
Speaker
Yeah, so they kind of finish this song and this sequence, and then Janet and Brad get sent to separate rooms in the house, and I think this is like, maybe the most controversial moment in the in the movie,
01:38:53
Speaker
where basically, like, sequentially, Frank and Furter goes into each of their bed areas. They have like, canopy beds and poses as the other one. So he poses as Brad with Janet and he poses as Janet with Brad and, like, hits on them, whatever, and very quickly is revealed to be himself and proceeds to, like, have some level of sexual contact with each of them.
01:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, this is always the scene that I feel conflicted about and probably would wish it to be different, but there's a lot to dissect in it.
01:39:34
Speaker
What I find fascinating, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding, The way that the scene goes, so first he goes to Janet's room, and it's really ingenious because ah as a viewer, you are looking through a curtain.
01:39:49
Speaker
So it kind of, I guess, looks like Brad. And also they use, forget the actor's name, but the actor who plays Brad, they do use his literal voice as the voiceover. So
Brad and Janet's Transformation and Frank's Manipulation
01:40:00
Speaker
if it's your first time watching, you kind of have to assume it's Brad at first.
01:40:05
Speaker
And then the thing is that like when Frankenfurter like gets in the bed with Janet, it seems like it's out well after like 2.5 seconds. Like they have sex for two seconds.
01:40:18
Speaker
And then it's revealed that it's actually Frankenfurter. And Janet's like, oh, my God. And she so something important that she says is, you tricked me. I wouldn't have. I've never. And she trails off. but for So just coming back to the two seconds of it all, and so I've always just been like, wait, is this just like...
01:40:37
Speaker
Just because they don't want to spend time with us having to watch them have sex? Or it's like, did they actually? Because like, literally, it's two seconds. And then she's like, oh, my God, we just had sex. i I've never had sex. I'm like, what?
01:40:48
Speaker
I think it's just touching. I actually don't think they have sex. I think it's just touching. And I don't think because in later when she gets to touch me, she says, I've never like i thought there's no use getting into heavy petting. So presumably she's never been like, you know, touched below the belt.
01:41:03
Speaker
So that's how I interpret it. that theyre I mean, and like queerness, you can argue that that is sex, but theyre I don't think that they're like P and V. Like, I don't think they're like doing it. Okay, that that helps.
01:41:14
Speaker
In a way, but i mean, maybe not. Okay. It doesn't help with the controversy, but it might help you understand what's just like literally going on. It's just just like a weird... yeah I don't know. i just never really understood that, but that definitely makes more sense. And she says, actually, and I think this furthers the point, which is why I'm pretty sure I'm right. Like, I'm pretty sure this isn't just my interpretation because she says...
01:41:35
Speaker
to think I was saving myself. And he says, I assure you, you're not spent yet. And then his head goes down. So I think, I actually don't think that they have like, whatever, like intercourse at all.
01:41:47
Speaker
I actually don't think that happens in the movie. i actually don't think she does that until she does that with Rocky. So I actually don't think that even happens. That helps a ton because yeah all these years I've just been like weird.
01:42:01
Speaker
Okay. yeah It took two seconds for Yeah. Yeah, doesn't like address obviously the consent issues here, but I think like just I think logistically that makes it make more sense. um I love one of the parts that I love in this these sequences is that they're each like, what have you done with Janet, Brad? And he goes, nothing.
01:42:19
Speaker
Why do you think I should? and like, it's just so funny. But i i i again, i think with so much of this movie, i think the criticisms are totally valid. I think that to touch on, i think particularly people who read um who read Frank N. Furter as a trans woman, this is extremely like problematic. And like this idea of like tricking people and all of that stuff, and obviously like coercion, I think that this is all there to be looked at and talked about.
01:42:50
Speaker
I just don't think it aligns with like how I'm perceiving what's going on. And so I'm glad that this conversation is happening like in a broader sense, but In the essay I referenced earlier that talks about one about lies and like the lies contained within the movie, that writer talks about this scene in a way that feels a lot more related to how I view it.
01:43:12
Speaker
And then there's another one that I didn't quote that's a lot about like kink. and that writer actually says, I've been sexually assaulted before. And like when I watch this scene, it doesn't feel like the times I've said no and didn't want it. It feels like the times I've said no and did.
01:43:28
Speaker
And i that's how I read it, too. and And again, I think if you are upset by this, you are right. Like, I think that that's okay. But back to the essay by ah Magdalene Visaggio about the lies, this is the moment where basically the lies are dismantled. So it says,
01:43:45
Speaker
Thus are Brad and Janet's lies systematically dismantled. Frank's deception boils down to a wig and a voice and is so ineffective as to collapse almost immediately as many times as it's tried.
01:43:57
Speaker
It turns out that the truth was far more effective at tempting them than the lie ever could have been. Had it been Brad arriving in Janet's room, for example, there is no reason to believe they would have had sex.
01:44:09
Speaker
It's not clear it's something they even terribly wanted from each other. And that's kind of like how I feel. Like, I don't think that they were that interested in each other. And I think that it was maybe knowing that something was off that made them interested. and and like I said, if that's not your read...
01:44:28
Speaker
I totally, like, i if that if this makes you actually not like the movie, I think that that's okay. Like, I think that this is a valid thing to be like, you know what? I, like, that's that's not it for me. That's totally okay.
01:44:40
Speaker
For me, in just my perception of the movie overall, my perception of all these characters overall and, like, the way that's evolved over time, i just don't think they don't want it, and I don't really think he's tricking them. I think that he's... I think that he...
01:44:56
Speaker
I don't know what to call it. Like, because i want to be like, I think he's kind of freeing them. But I also think it's like problematic to say that as well. And it's not exactly that.
01:45:07
Speaker
It's it's like, it's like he's showing up. And like it, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really know how to explain I am following you. Like, I agree with your read on it. And and I really appreciate how you process it I think mostly I do process it the same way. I mean, certainly from the point after which they see it's Frank and Furter, they both of them, Brad and Janet, then do continue sexual relations. And arguably are more interested.
01:45:39
Speaker
like arguably with much more enthusiasm once they realize that it's Frank, which Like fair, he's hotter than literally both of them put together. Yeah, for sure. I think, yeah, I think what I bristle at is the the tricking, not obviously not at all in terms of his, him being any kind of um trans identity. The tricking is clearly as like, oh, I thought you were Brad, but it's really you, Frank Inverter.
01:46:05
Speaker
um I think, yeah, I think it just can be upsetting to see that, like to think that someone is being intimate with you and it turns out it's someone else. That can be, that is a bit upsetting to me.
01:46:18
Speaker
But certainly i I do appreciate the read on it, which is like, yeah, actually once once they can see it's Frankenfurt, they're like, hmm, okay, let's go. And that's like a huge turning point in the movie for both Brad and Janet, um where they're releasing themselves from the shackles of heteronormativity.
01:46:37
Speaker
They're literally experiencing pleasure, maybe, the most genuine pleasure they might've experienced up until then in their lives. And also in terms of Frankenfurter, like, I feel like he probably sees himself as this grand liberator of humans, right? Of like, come into my castle, come to my party, come see what's on the slab, like come into my world and I'm going to free you. I'm a queer person and whatever, obviously he doesn't say that, but like the way I see it is like, he's like, I'm this big grand queer person.
01:47:11
Speaker
fun entity and I want to take you normies away from the shackles of heteronormativity and yeah the exact way go he goes about it is like you know and i do think could have been done slightly differently but I think ultimately the result of that is like Brad and Janet are like okay yeah I'm different now Yeah, absolutely. and And even later, I have some more, i have some more quotes about Brad and Janet and like in what ways they're different and like what that means for them.
01:47:41
Speaker
But yeah, so this, this sequence happens while Frank is off, like away from Rocky, Riff Raff and Magenta kind of like attack Rocky and he runs away and they send the dogs after him.
01:47:53
Speaker
ah Janet starts to kind of freak out and she is going to like the main lab room and she sees... the aftermath of Brad and Frank. Brad is like sitting in a Frank's robe, smoking a cigarette, and Frank is like lounging on the bed, and she feels betrayed, but she also says, how could I have done this to you?
01:48:15
Speaker
And then she finds Rocky in his tank, who is scared and a little bit injured. And here's and one of my favorite callbacks is here too, when she She took his hand is injured and she rips a piece of her skirt off to wrap around him. And like, you'll you'll be like, it's Sarandon wrap.
01:48:36
Speaker
And I love that. Oh, I love that. And they have this moment and we go back to the criminologist who like we need to like do I think at the end we need to just like talk about the criminologist as a concept.
01:48:48
Speaker
But he's the narrator and we flashback to him and he defines like emotion and talks about how Janet is now like a slave to emotion. And she is clearly like she touches his hand and like something happens to her. Yeah.
01:49:02
Speaker
And then we get into Janet's kind of solo song, Touch a Touch a Touch Me. And i like this song is her like big transformation, I think even more than her time with Frank.
01:49:15
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I mean, going further with what you were saying earlier, which is that with Rocky, this is the first time she she would have, like I guess, penetrative sex, if you want to call it, ah have different terms like that.
01:49:27
Speaker
But so she is like, she, i think, got really inspired by her time with Frankenfurter like five minutes ago and is now a muscle fan. So she has now made her way to wanting to do something with Rocky. And it's like, again, a song where every time I listen to it and see it, I'm like, Oh my God, I can't believe I knew about this song when I was like 10. Like, this is like, so kind of crazy to me, but it's really explicit. Like it's extremely explicit. um Janet literally says, I want to be dirty.
01:49:57
Speaker
And she is shedding any idea of her being this like school girl, innocent, girl next door character anymore and she's trying to be her real self she's trying to be a real person and that this is how it looks like for her and for her it means like getting in touch with her sexuality and her desires and clearly not being ashamed of that anymore and what I do find kind of fun ah don't know if that's right word but
01:50:28
Speaker
I do kind of appreciate that the framing of this song is that Columbia and Magenta are watching Janet and Rocky through a camera. Again, like, not... Don't do that in real life to anyone. But in the context of this weird, crazy night everyone's having, it's just funny because, like, they look at Janet and, like, when she's explaining, like, I've never even... did she say? I've never even... been I'd only ever kissed before. Right. Thank you.
01:50:59
Speaker
And then he's like, you mean she? Yeah. I love it. and Magenta is just like ah the most suave character. I love her so much. I know. Anyways. Yeah. Janet and Rocky have sex in the like tub that he was created in. And there's all these rainbow colors again.
01:51:15
Speaker
It's so, so, so cool. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I think softens me to Columbia and Magenta watching her, which again, don't do this in real life. Like this is gross.
01:51:28
Speaker
But I think there are two things here that make me like it in the context of the movie. And I think one of them is that they seem to have this like really lovely kind of sapphic light connection.
01:51:39
Speaker
And they're touching each other. They're not touching each other really explicitly, but they are touching each other in ways that feel highly suggestive and feel so playful and fun and like light in a way that the sex in the rest of this movie doesn't.
01:51:52
Speaker
Not that it feels heavy and bad, but it's such a different tone between the two of them. And... Then the other part of it is that they're kind of cheering her on. They're like, good for her. Like, she's getting with Rocky. They're like, she does, like, like there's an there's an air. And I think this speaks to them all being women.
01:52:11
Speaker
Like,
Frank's Downfall: Ethical and Interpersonal Analysis
01:52:12
Speaker
to whatever extent, Magenta is a woman. Magenta is an alien. i Like, I don't really know. But they're all women. And I think there's something so nice about watching these two kind of sapphic-coated women watching Janet come into her sexuality and being like, hell yeah. Yeah.
01:52:28
Speaker
I love this for her. Yeah, they're like proud of her, you know, and I love that. i think it's a really, it's a really great moment. And it's a really cinematic moment as well.
01:52:41
Speaker
Yeah. And so the end of this song has this like wonderful orgiastic sequence of her, like Rocky is on top of her and all of a sudden we get glimpses of every single character on top of her repeating the line creature of the night.
01:53:00
Speaker
and It's like she's and I think it speaks to like the way this overall experience is impacting her. She's so turned on by everyone in the house and this whole experience that she like doesn't even know how to handle it and is channeling it into this sexual interaction she's having with Rocky. But I just love that like like the way that I read that is like she's thinking about all of them. She's like having sex with all of them and she's loving it and she's loving it every second. and
01:53:31
Speaker
And I love that for her. Good for Janet. Right. Like good for Janet. Yes. Good for Janet. but The next sequence is really funny.
01:53:41
Speaker
We finally get and appearance by Dr. Scott, who is the teacher that Brad and Janet were on their way to see. But it turns out he was going to the castle to try and find Eddie, who is his nephew and has obviously disappeared.
01:53:55
Speaker
And Frankenfurter does a kind of unnecessary slash necessary thing of he uses this like magnetic pull machine thing to like magnetically get Dr. Scott up the stairs.
01:54:10
Speaker
ah be Is it like because he's in a wheelchair and there's no, but there's an elevator. and It's weird. I think it's just like, i think it's just for our benefit of watching him get dragged around the house.
01:54:24
Speaker
Yeah, I also think it's like probably that probably like to disorient him on some level too, because the house is accessible. I don't know if you've ever seen the meme that's like, if Frankenfurter's castle is accessible, what's your excuse?
01:54:36
Speaker
love that Yes. Oh, that's so true. Because in the lab, there's like the, the like, there's a ramp. it's a Yeah. Oh my God. It's not really and it like in real life, that wouldn't be accessible. You would like fly down the ramp, like out of control, but whatever, we're going with it. And 70s accessible. Yes.
01:54:52
Speaker
Yes. And in this process, everyone kind of files into the lab and they catch Janet and Rocky in the tank. And this is the part where they're all seeing each other and calling out each other's names. So there's this sequence where Janet's like Brad and then he's like Janet and then they're like Dr. Scott, Janet, Brad, Rocky and this is one of my favorite callbacks too it's like it's Janet, Dr. Scott, Janet, Brad, Rocky and then the audience calls out Bullwinkle and I love that. What's the significance of that? Rocky and Bullwinkle.
01:55:25
Speaker
Oh okay. Yeah like I don't know it's like I don't think it's very significant but it cracks me up every time. It's amazing. It's so like, it's what it's part of what makes this movie so um like over the top and ah like a satire like it's just these moments where you just have to like laugh out loud.
01:55:47
Speaker
And then do they go into the they the dinner scene happens right after? Yeah, Madenta, like, summons them all for dinner. Yes. Basically, Dr. Scott is trying to explain, well he sings a song, Eddie, that you had mentioned earlier about how, like, Eddie was essentially born a troublemaker, which is so sad. Like, no child is born bad. Like, whatever.
01:56:10
Speaker
um But he's saying, like, I got this note from him that he's in trouble and I had to come investigate all this stuff. They also basically find out that, so, Frankenfurter...
01:56:22
Speaker
made someone cook Eddie into a meal. And they're in the process of eating him and they all like realize it. I forget what Frank says. And they look down and Columbia is like, excuse me, and goes and like screams. Yes.
01:56:38
Speaker
he's He's like, we're here to discuss Eddie. And then yeah Columbia is like, Eddie. And then Frank like revs the carving tool at her and says, it's a rather tender subject.
01:56:50
Speaker
And then like you see everyone realize it. And that's a funny callback moment too because they're like, Brad gets it. Janet gets it. Rocky gets it. Rocky doesn't care. you know Oh, yeah. Rocky is in his own world. Yeah. And this is like the interesting thing, right, where like Eddie's song about himself has this like teenage boy vibe to it.
01:57:11
Speaker
And this song, yeah, frames him as a troublemaker from birth, but really talks about his behavior after his mom died. And that he got into like sex, drugs and rock and roll. And he was a heroin addict, which there are a lot. ah I didn't have time to like dive into this as much as I'd have liked to.
01:57:29
Speaker
But there are a lot of pieces of this movie that people interpret to be related to heroin use and addiction. And Eddie is kind of a good stand in for that because there's the reference to him shooting up junk and...
01:57:40
Speaker
There's a lot of pieces throughout like the void calling and time warp. Like there's a lot of moments. I would really, I mean, I think I can't imagine I won't talk about this movie again. So like hopefully next time I will get to that. But I i think it's something worth looking into if you haven't. um I don't know how much I read that in the movie. But again, I think this movie shows us what we need to see. And I do think that those perspectives are really interesting. um So just, you know, something to dip your toes in and look into.
01:58:09
Speaker
I had not thought about that at all. So I appreciate that. And I think that does have a lot of like credence to it I think, yeah, I think overall, I don't think the movie is like necessarily providing a message about drugs specifically, but i can totally understand how that can be framed and in certain ways, particularly, yeah, with Eddie, that that can make sense.
01:58:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I will say, I think I feel ah i have like this thing where like when I see someone in like a kind of unmanageable and chaotic situation and they're kind of stranded on their own and like don't really have a way out or like a way to get control of things.
01:58:52
Speaker
i i have that's like I have like recurring nightmares like that where I'm like, like not like Rocky Horror, but just like where I'm kind of stuck in some sort of really out of control situation and I don't really have a way out and the people who could maybe help me out like aren't helping me out and I'm just like stuck there.
01:59:09
Speaker
So ah there's like, there are there's a moment in this scene and it's like two seconds where Dr. Scott is like taking his napkin off the table and like putting it on his lap and just like you can see him trying so hard to cling to some sense of normality.
01:59:25
Speaker
And if I were to let myself like I could the movie could be ruined for me in that moment. Not because it's like a bad moment, but just because I feel so bad for him. And like, I'm glad it's so fleeting because I would just be in like unbearable distress for him if everything else wasn't so like absurd and ridiculous.
01:59:42
Speaker
But it does make me feel so upset for a second every time. Because I'm like, oh, like you're just in that you're just in this you didn't want to be in this. I know, like, I mean, for most of it, he kind of does remain fairly chill.
01:59:58
Speaker
But yeah, he's very stressed. And I could totally understand that. Like, that's a terrible situation to be in And also, like, if Brad and Janet maybe had If their car hadn't broken down and they had made it to Dr. Scott's, the night would have turned out differently for everyone.
02:00:16
Speaker
So there's also that. So yeah, things, things take a turn. Big time. And and eventually, ah you know, Frank and Furter throws a tantrum, essentially, and like pulls the tablecloth off. And not only are they having meatloaf for dinner, um but Eddie meatloaf is the coffin is like glass on top. And that's the table that they have been eating on I never actually like went so far as to realize like, yeah, they're having meatloaf and the the actor, well, the person playing Eddie is meatloaf.
02:00:49
Speaker
Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then this like sets everybody off freaking out, obviously. And we get to the next song, which I have never realized this, but is not actually on the soundtrack that I listened to.
02:01:04
Speaker
And in our notes, we called it Wise Up Janet Weiss. I don't really know what it's called, um but that's what we'll go with. And this is Frank finally being confronted for the for really the first time in the movie and probably his life.
02:01:22
Speaker
Yeah, because Janet, I think, is trying to comfort Rocky. And then Frank Conferred is like, absolutely absolutely not. He's really mad at her. He chases her up the stairs ah back to the lab.
02:01:33
Speaker
and forget. the context of this line, but I really like the line he says in the song, um ah mental mindfuck can be nice. and it's just like a nice nugget of a line. It is. And before that, like not immediately before, but earlier in the song, he hurling insults at Janet. He says, you're as sensual as a pencil.
02:01:53
Speaker
He says, your apple pie don't taste so nice. Like he is he went from seducing her to again, like throwing a throwing a tantrum. Like he is so unable to not be the center of attention in the center of people's worlds that this just like totally sets him off.
02:02:09
Speaker
and he uses the sonic transducer to glue them to the floor basically so they can't move and this is like the like this is the part where they're calling him a hot dog and his name frankenfurter it's obviously hilarious and isn't brad or janet who's like they each get a line they they say you're a hot dog then they can then they say something else and then he So Brad and Dr. Scott say the same thing. They say, you're a hot dog, but you better not try to hurt her, Frank and Furter.
02:02:41
Speaker
And then he turns them to marble, right? Yes. And then he turns them to marble. And then Janet says, you're a hot dog. And he zaps her right away. And the callback in that moment is like, it wouldn't have rhymed anyway. yeah Because hurt me doesn't rhyme with Frank and Furter.
02:02:55
Speaker
I just feel it's so funny. He's like, fuck this hot dog line. Like, shut up. Right. and this is where the movie takes like a more profound turn. And Columbia storms in seeing all of this happen. And she says, I can't stand any more of this.
02:03:11
Speaker
First, you spurn me for Eddie. Then you throw him off like an old overcoat for Rocky. You chew people up and then you spit them out again. I loved you. Did you hear me? I loved you. Yeah. And what did it get me? I'll tell you a big nothing.
02:03:23
Speaker
You're like a sponge. You take, take, take and drain others of their love and emotion. Well, I've had enough. And like for the first time, someone is really saying to Frank, like, you cannot treat people this way just because you're having a good time. Like you don't get to do whatever you want for the sake of your own pleasure and enjoyment.
02:03:42
Speaker
And he he turns her to marble, too. And then he looks over and Rocky is like posing and like being sexy. And so he turns him to marble, too. you Everyone's just this marble statue. I mean, it's it's gorgeous.
02:03:56
Speaker
And then there's such a great line. Frankenfurter turns to the camera and says, it's not easy having a good time. And he follows it up with even smiling makes my face ache.
02:04:08
Speaker
think It's like, it's like lovely. He's like, know y'all are watching me. Like, let me just break the fourth wall for a second. Totally. Totally. And so then he gets them all dressed in their like performance outfits for the floor show.
02:04:22
Speaker
They're all in fishnets and corsets and feathers and sparkles. And he unzaps them. And that's where we get to Rose Tint My World, which is like three songs put together. So it's the floor show. It's Don't Dream It. And it's Wild and Untamed Thing kind of rolled into one song.
02:04:38
Speaker
It's very elaborate. I think it's like the most complex, elaborate ah kind of profound moment of the show because each song is long. There's um kind of reprises of different of each one, I think.
02:04:52
Speaker
And it's the whole, it takes up the whole rest of the movie. And so the refrain of Rose Tints My World is Rose Tints My World and keeps me safe from my trouble and pain. This is like part of the like the heroin take as well.
02:05:06
Speaker
But I'm not going like I said, I'm not really going to get into that so much. But they all have their own kind of verse here. And so we start with Columbia, who's like, it was great when it all began and like talks about how this was so great and then turned into something bad. And then we have Rocky, who's like, I'm just seven hours old.
02:05:26
Speaker
And somebody should be told my libido hasn't been controlled. The only thing I've come to trust is an orgasmic rest of lust. So he's talking about how he was just thrown into this world and immediately became a sexual object.
02:05:37
Speaker
And so they're both talking about how this has not been so great for them. May have been great when it began, but it's not so great now. And then in the in the essay from Absolute Pleasures, the one I keep coming back to about lies, the author talks about like kind of Brad and Janet's journeys and how they are talking about it because they're both having big realizations in the aftermath of this and seem to be benefiting from their experience so it takes a turn and the essay calls the floor show the centerpiece of the film's moral universe it is there on the stage within a stage where Brad and Janet are afforded
02:06:15
Speaker
the theatrical and emotional distance to tell the truth. While Columbia and Rocky lament the ways Frank has hurt them, Brad and Janet's verses are a striking departure.
02:06:26
Speaker
Her deception has been stripped away, and she sees only a boundless future in which she has power over her own body and desires. The essay talks about how ah Janet's departure is much easier to digest for her.
02:06:42
Speaker
They frame her as straight. I'm not sure that that's my read on her, but just for the sake of this, like talking about, like I said, not all these essays are in agreement, but I really liked this one. how because she is just having a sexual awakening she's not like like it's shaking her ground but it's not shaking her like core fundamental understanding of who she is and then when they talk about brad they talk about and and i think you'll find the musical elements of this interesting i was writing this and i was like oh like you're gonna get a kick out of this it it says rose tint my world is primarily in the key of d major
02:07:15
Speaker
upbeat, danceable, triumphant. But Brad steps out and the fun, glam rock feel of the song evaporates into the key of f sharp minor, a lamentation that points to the future.
02:07:26
Speaker
Even in this moment, he struggles to articulate the truth and begs his absent mother to take these feelings away from him if he promises never to indulge again.
Cultural Influence and Queer Narratives in Rocky Horror
02:07:36
Speaker
But he can't deny them, cannot pretend he does not like the way he looks, the way he feels, sexy,
02:07:42
Speaker
Free. Not even for a moment. The man who has spent the entire film trying his best to be a man is now dressed in the sequins and fishnets like a showgirl, and he loves it.
02:07:55
Speaker
Brad isn't evoking some playful subversion of gender, but rather is caught in the earthquake of discovering that he likes looking like this. And it's so much bigger than what Janet is going through.
02:08:09
Speaker
and some I've read some takes that it depict him just as gay. I've read some takes that depict him as like potentially like trans. like And whatever it is, i don't know, because we don't really get into the future.
02:08:21
Speaker
But everything that Brad understands about himself has just totally disintegrated. And he's scared. He's like enjoying it, but he's he's scared and he's very unsure.
02:08:33
Speaker
And so they have really different vibes to their pieces of this song. love all of that. I agree with the read on Brad. I love it. Like you see his leg ah start to rise and flex so with the high heel. And it's a really quite poignant moment.
02:08:52
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, it it is kind of interesting that... Columbia, Rocky and Brad are like, Oh my God, I'm not having such a great time for one reason or another. And Jan is just like, Oh, I feel great.
02:09:03
Speaker
like Like she's just having the best time ever right now. I feel released to bad times, deceased, and bad times, deceased. That is such a vibe of a line. but I want to use that like more regularly.
02:09:17
Speaker
Totally. And I also love the line, which the line at the end of Janet's, which is a which is about Frank that says his lust is so sincere. And I think that's really true. His love is not sincere. His care is not sincere.
02:09:31
Speaker
But what is very sincere about him is his lust and sensuality. Yeah. And I love that that was what she needed. So for her, it's kind of okay that he sucks. Like it's kind of ok that he is using people. Not not that she's okay with it, but it's not affecting her because that's not what she needed.
02:09:48
Speaker
She had Brad. Like she had someone who was pretty devoted to her until this. She needed someone lustful to like introduce her to lust and sex. And so I love that. i His lust is so sincere.
02:10:02
Speaker
That's a great line, which then ah kind of gets rhymed much later when they reprise which when she says, God bless Lily Saint Seer, who I looked at. I didn't know who that was. Finally looked into it and who was a dancer, I think, and and stripper.
02:10:19
Speaker
I'm not sure exactly what. Anyways, I'm not sure about more than that, but I just love that. Like, yeah, Janet is just truly like, God bless this night. Like, I'm having the best time ever.
02:10:33
Speaker
Totally, totally. And so their lies to themselves from the beginning of the movie fall apart. And so the essay says, if there is any single moral to be taken from Rocky Horror, it's that lies are fragile.
02:10:45
Speaker
And there is no amount of subjectivity or self-deluding that can keep reality at bay forever. It will come crashing down around you one way or another. It doesn't matter if you're ready for it. It doesn't matter if you're comfortable.
02:10:57
Speaker
The truth will always assert itself. You either stand to meet it or you let it crush you once and for all. And Janet is standing to meet it. Janet is like, here I am in all my sexual glory and I am ready for this.
02:11:12
Speaker
i love that. That's a beautiful quote. That's, that's, um, yeah, it's really meaningful. And then we get another iconic entrance.
02:11:23
Speaker
I mean, very few characters in movies get two iconic entrances, but Frankenfurter is one of them. um So the backdrop to the stage opens and it's basically this like tower and it says an RKO radio picture. This brings us back to the first song of the film, science fiction double feature.
02:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, and this is like the thing that shows up at the beginning of the movie. This is like their title slide for RKO Productions. yeah I don't actually know, RKO Pictures.
02:11:58
Speaker
And it shows up at a lot of at the beginning of a lot of the movies that are referenced. And so it just takes us back, yeah, to this whole movie being kind of a love letter to RKO on some level while also subverting all of the restrictions around those movies.
02:12:13
Speaker
And it's just so, it's so good. And then... Sorry, can I interrupt? yeah Can you even imagine what this movie would look like if the Hays Code was still in effect?
02:12:24
Speaker
oh my god i like what would that have looked like I don't even know I'm sure they would have come up with something but it's like I can't even imagine it's like a fun thought experiment it is it is I'm I'm curious like how because a lot of it is like not so it's like too explicit for Hays Code but it's not as explicit as it would maybe be if it was made today so it is yeah it's an interesting thing to think about but We get into the next portion of the song and we have Frank like talking about his own past a little bit.
02:12:57
Speaker
And he says, whatever happened to Fay Wray, that delicate satin draped frame as it clung to her thigh, how I started to cry because I wanted to be dressed just the same.
02:13:09
Speaker
And so we see a hint that like Frank's desires were kept from him maybe at one point. And he's leaned a little too far in once he got to. And it seems like, ah I think it raises the question of if he had been allowed to be himself earlier, would he have maybe been himself in a way that was so much less, that was less reckless and less harmful to the people around him.
02:13:32
Speaker
And like the danger of keeping people from what they want Yeah, because then thesis of this part of the song is that essentially the title of the book, right? Give yourself over to absolute pleasure.
02:13:47
Speaker
I'll let you do the whole quote, but i think it's it's an important... The idea there is an important one to explore, which is, I think, also tied to truth in a lot of ways, truth and pleasure of of letting yourself unravel, open up, be true to who you are, explore what you want, explore your desires.
02:14:07
Speaker
And as we'll see later, then you get someone like Riff Raff being like, you've gone too far with that, to the point of which, yeah, like you said, like he's Frank Conferter is not taking into account other people's feelings anymore in his quest for absolute pleasure.
02:14:20
Speaker
But I mean, what a line, like what a thesis, what a statement to say. I think that's kind of what the movie is about in in a lot of ways. Yeah, I think it's an invite and a cautionary tale at the same time. And the whole the whole quote, and I did write this in my notes without listening and without looking because this just lives in my head so rent-free, is give yourself over to absolute pleasure.
02:14:46
Speaker
Swim the warm waters of sins of the flesh, erotic nightmares beyond any measure, and sensual daydreams to treasure forever. And like, this is what you leave Rocky Horror with. Like, right? When you go, like, when you go...
02:15:00
Speaker
It's this like sexy, chaotic, crazy, fun time. And they are memories that you treasure forever. Like they are sensual daydreams that you treasure forever. and Like so many of my fondest memories, particularly of the time in my life where I was going all the time,
02:15:18
Speaker
are so wrapped up in my experiences at these shows and like the dopamine rush that I get just hearing one of the songs and the like, like I have these like flag, I have flashbacks, like the good kind of flashbacks where I'm just like back in it for a minute and like,
02:15:35
Speaker
It's so it's so profound. And like, I feel like that whole quote is so it and and and he ends it by saying, can't you just see it? And it's like, we have just seen it. We just sat through this movie and this experience and we have we have seen it now.
02:15:51
Speaker
Not only that, but then the next big line that gets repeated a million times is don't dream it, be it. I mean, that's like another thing where it's like, don't let yourself just stay in your, I mean, this is like so relatable to me in so many ways. Like don't stay in your head. Don't just imagine things, go out and do those things, go be the person you want to be. And again, the the excess of it all is maybe like what the plot then goes into. But I think just as a general message, these lines, these parts of these songs are so much more profound and long lasting, like,
02:16:27
Speaker
in in our psyche. Like if if you're watching and you're enjoying the movie, then I think these lines are going to mean a lot to you. So just jumping off of the don't dream it, be it. My next tattoo, hopefully my next one.
02:16:40
Speaker
Like if I stick to my plan is i want to get and it's very like cheesy and cliche and like probably 10 million other people have it and like that's why I want it I will probably have tattoos that are very niche and like only random like I have a tattoo of a quote on my thigh that like I've never run into someone who has recognized it and like I love that but this one is designed to be for the masses I think And I want it to be like on my outer butt cheek, like where you'd see it if I was in a bathing suit.
02:17:11
Speaker
And I just want it to be the lips. And I want it to say, don't dream it, be it in the Rocky Horror font. And I just like need that on my body. And in the book, a cut, like one of the writers talked about how Rocky Horror is kind of like a secret handshake.
02:17:25
Speaker
where like if somebody like responds to a Rocky horror thing, you just kind of know like either they're queer or they're just like you're kind of weirdo and freak like and it's just it just draws people in. So like that is i just like think I would tell you. I just thought i would tell you that.
02:17:40
Speaker
Thank you for telling me that. I'm so happy you did. and I think that is gorgeous and amazing. And I can't wait for you to get that and I love that I mean the lips and the font are ready just so perfect for a tattoo and that's such a great line totally so the next um shot in the movie is is really cool they're all all the characters are swimming in the pool and the bottom of the pool is a painting of Michelangelo's the creation of Adam with like God and Adam like
02:18:15
Speaker
touching or almost touching fingers. It's like a really iconic painting. And Frankenfurter is also like sort of ah swimming with this, like, i don't even know what to call it. It's um like a circular raft. Like a life observer, like the circular, like before they had baby life jackets thing.
02:18:34
Speaker
Yeah, but it says that it's SS Titanic on it. I just thought that's like a nice touch. don't know. Yeah, it's very random. Well, and I have a quote about this that I'll talk. I'll get more into it later. But I think crucially, Frank and Furter is positioned between God and man, like in the scene, in the shot.
02:18:55
Speaker
He is like yeah where their hands come together is where Frank and Furter is. floating my brain is exploding yeah I actually hadn't noticed that there's a quick like I said there's a quote from the book that we'll get into about like what this means and how it relates to Frank but i I as soon as I read that I was like wow okay I see I see why this painting is here a little bit even more than I already did so many nice touches in this movie yeah But yeah, they're all kind of like swimming around, having some kind of like orgy, I want to say. i don't know. they're They're just swimming and having a good time.
02:19:32
Speaker
And then, well, then they go back on stage. They perform. They're singing. They're all wet. It's like really funny. i feel like they're probably exhausted at this point, but they're still performing. That's show business.
02:19:43
Speaker
I don't know if this is totally true, but like I did read somewhere that like the pool was not heated and they were told that the more frantic they were in the pool scene, like the quicker they would get the shot and the quicker they could get out of the cold water. So hilarious if true.
02:19:59
Speaker
Maybe treat actors like a little bit better, but it is kind of funny like in retrospect. Honestly, anytime I'm watching something and it's the actors have to get wet by like rain or swimming, I'm just like, i hope they got paid a lot for that day. Like they should get like a bonus for any time they have to perform while wet. Because I can only imagine how...
02:20:22
Speaker
awful that is for sure especially if it's cold okay and then maybe my favorite this might be my favorite part of the movie I don't know i've probably already said that five times but Magenta and Riff Raff then burst into this theater and they're wearing like kind of like traditional sci-fi garb and like their hair is different now like Magenta has like a It's like this big poofy updo and she has this... She has like the Bride of Frankenstein hair. She has like the white stripe on the side and everything too. That's what it is.
02:20:56
Speaker
Right. And then this is the... And I'm going to quote it This is the part of this whole floor show extravaganza that gets stuck in my head after every time I watch this movie. This is the part that for days, including today, like days and days and days, I sing this exact...
02:21:15
Speaker
paragraph, um this exact verse that Riff Raff sings. And I don't know like why. it's just it's so it tickles something in my brain. I won't so actually sing it.
02:21:26
Speaker
But he says he bursts in with the like laser and everything. And he says, Frankenfurter, it's all over. Your mission is a failure. Your lifestyle's too extreme. I'm your new commander. You now are my prisoner.
02:21:39
Speaker
we return to Transylvania. Prepare the transit beam. And yes, this was my version of I wrote this all without looking at the lyrics. And it's just so I think it's just because like also the the way that he's singing is very declamatory and like.
02:21:55
Speaker
It's not very rhythmic. It's very um like even in how he says everything. So it's really easy to like have it. I don't know. I feel like it's just easy to get stuck in my head.
02:22:07
Speaker
ah For sure. And it's such a good moment. And, you know, your lifestyle is too extreme. It makes you wonder where the line is for them. And they've never done this before. You know, like they like like this is just happening today.
02:22:21
Speaker
Okay, but also, and then also the fact that Magenta and Riff Raff are siblings, and we find that out after they've already, i think at some point they kiss or they like are very- They're very weirdly affectionate. Yeah, it's it's a little, it's definitely something. Yeah.
02:22:38
Speaker
Right? I'm like, okay, that's also maybe a little extreme. But again, as you've mentioned a few times, these people are all aliens. So, you know. Yes. But yeah, it it does raise the question, I guess, of like, was it Rocky that like tipped the scales? Was it what went on with Brad and Janet? Like, it's just like, where did this become too extreme?
02:23:01
Speaker
Because they do clearly seem willing to indulge like a level of hedonism that is not typical for... American earthlings. So yeah, I'm so curious. I kind of love that it doesn't answer. Like I think it would be over explaining if it answered, but it's just an interesting thing to think about what level of hedonism is normal and expected and okay. And where does the line get crossed?
02:23:24
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And then the next song, though I think we had already had some bits of this song earlier on, I always forget the order of the floor show, but the next song is like maybe the most serious one out of the whole musical, would you agree?
02:23:40
Speaker
um like I think it's the the most profound and like you can actually take it seriously. Because this whole movie, this whole musical, barely has one second of actual seriousness. like It's all camp. It's all melodramatic, over the top.
02:23:58
Speaker
And it has to be that. like it it it That's what Rocky Horror is. And it just wouldn't work any other way. Anyways...
02:24:07
Speaker
But then you get to this song where Frankenfurter is like, oh, okay, we're going to go back home to Transylvania. And I'll let you explain the song. But I think it's it can be ah it can be taken seriously and it can be taken kind of outside of the context of the of the musical a little bit as just this really meaningful song.
02:24:30
Speaker
I totally agree that this is the most serious song in the movie. um This is my funeral song. Like this is my death plan. So if anyone was wondering, if anyone was wondering, I want to be cremated and I want my ashes to be spread over sunset cliffs.
02:24:46
Speaker
And I mean, who knows? I could change my mind, but I've wanted this for like a few years. Like this has been like several years of me thinking this. And I want this to be the song that they play while they like throw my ashes. I really love that.
02:24:58
Speaker
That is beautiful. I love this song so much. And I i think that there's like hints. And I think that some of this is the differences between Frankenfurter and Magenta and Riff Raff.
02:25:12
Speaker
That like Frankenfurter probably did not actually fit in very well on his home planet. And I think that this song makes me feel that way because...
02:25:25
Speaker
Like, I want to come again and stay. Smile, and that will mean I may. Like, he needs permission to like, exist in his home. And, like, I've seen blue skies through the tears in my eyes, and I realize I'm going home. Like, it's it seems like he feels like he's been sent out, right? And even the second verse, everywhere it's been the same, feeling like I'm outside in the rain.
02:25:48
Speaker
Like, it's it's the same thing over and over, no matter where he is, it seems, that he is too much. there's a version of Frankenfurter that's too much for his excesses and his hedonism, but I think he's really too much for his carelessness and his disregard for other people, aliens, whatever.
02:26:09
Speaker
And i I think that's why i it's the same thing about like, where's the line for Riff Raff and Magenta? Because it's like, you kind of wonder, like, has he always been this way? Has he always felt like an outsider?
02:26:21
Speaker
Where did that outsider-ness turn into like a callousness for him, which I think is something that happened. Like that does happen to people, right? The more that we are disparaged or like cast aside, we can grow really bitter and we can grow to not really give a shit about how other people feel if we have felt like people don't care about how we feel.
02:26:44
Speaker
And so this song... just gives us such an insight into Frankenfurter, both as potentially a victim in the past, but the type of perpetrator that Frankenfurter has become, and that it comes from this desire to feel home, to feel belonging, that has eluded him, both at his home planet and now on Earth in his castle.
02:27:13
Speaker
I love that reading on it so much. I really do think it's such a genuinely profound song. And I think the other thing I love about it is that, so they're in this part of the castle that's a theater with an actual stage and pool, because why not?
02:27:30
Speaker
But he's a mant it's ah it's empty apart from the main characters. But when he's starting to sing this song, I'm Going Home, he starts imagining the theater full of people. And like he's literally performing for people. And I think that's another part of Frankenfurter is like, he's a born performer.
02:27:47
Speaker
Everything is theatrical to him. um Everything is heightened to him. i Characters like that are so fun. But when you do, when everything is so heightened and everything feels like a performance, what you're masking is vulnerability. And he's showing this vulnerability here. And he really does cry. And he has this moment where he like puts his, ah it's his fists to his eyes and kind of drags them down. And so it's makeup,
02:28:13
Speaker
runs down his face I thought I always liked that shot yeah because that is like taking off the mask right the makeup kind of is the mask and I think like in this imaginary audience you just see his desire to be loved And his total inability to like know how to achieve that goal, you know, but it's there. It's there. He just, he wants to, and maybe the desire to be loved somewhere along the way got like warped into a desire to be adored and to be worshipped, right? Because his view of what love means has become so skewed by his own experiences, both probably as feeling like an outsider and then in what he has done to other people that it's turned into,
02:28:59
Speaker
something else. And I think we see that in this imagined audience. Yeah, absolutely. I would agree. The next sequence is basically riffraff being like oh lol you're not coming with us like don't know what you were thinking but actually we're gonna kill you now right we refers only to magenta and myself exactly and it's kind of funny because it's almost kind of just like a record scratch where it's like he break and further just had this most it's such a beautiful song crying about like oh you know what fine like i'll i'll give in to you riffraff like i'll come with you well we're good let's go home like you said and then riffraff is like no
02:29:40
Speaker
Not you. I'm about to kill you, actually. There's a really interesting line that Dr. Scott says, because basically he's like agreeing with Riff Raff. He's like, yes, like I'm fine with all of this happening.
02:29:53
Speaker
And he says specifically, society must be protected. And I think that's such an important line, because it kind of reveals so much about...
02:30:04
Speaker
again, about queerness and like how it's viewed and how these like straight-laced people, even like a scientist who you wish would inherently be more open-minded, even those kinds of people can be very, very close-minded about just like the different ways you're allowed to be a human. And he's like, yeah, this, I mean, he doesn't elaborate. So protected from what? Is it, again, is it that Frankenfurter has killed people? Is it that Frankenfurter is from another planet and like, he doesn't like aliens? Is it that Frankenfurter is some kind of queer? Like he doesn't specify. It's probably an amalgamation of everything that Frankenfurter is.
02:30:44
Speaker
um But yeah, I'm i'm curious on on your take on that line because i think it's really important. Yeah, I go back and forth because I think there is that element of ah like white, ah cis, hetero, patriarchal society and like the need to protect that society from queerness.
02:31:04
Speaker
But a think society needs to be protected from people like Frank. Like he's not good. He's not good just because he's queer. And I think this is the thing for me.
02:31:16
Speaker
I think that Frank is a monster, unfortunately. Maybe there's a lot of layers to that and like it's complex how he got there, but Frank is willing to dispose of people quite literally for shits and giggles.
02:31:31
Speaker
And that's not queerness. That's not, you know what I mean? Like, he happens to also be queer, but like, let queer people be evil and fucked up also. You know what I mean? I don't actually need them to all be pure of heart and like deserving of all these things and whatever.
02:31:47
Speaker
And I'm not in favor of the death penalty. I'm not even in favor of prisons, but just like in the in this universe, I don't know that he should die, even in the context of this movie, but I do think society needs to be protected from him.
02:32:00
Speaker
Because he is willing to do whatever the fuck he wants, no matter who he hurts. And so i don't know what Dr. Scott means. And I don't know if I agree with Dr. Scott in his own meaning, because I don't know what he means.
02:32:17
Speaker
But I do think that Frank is... a walking hurricane. You know what I mean? Who just like swallows everything up and throws it back out and it's all fucked up afterwards. And like, you know, it seems like Brad and Janet are the exception to that. They are not like Brad and Janet having this like enlightenment does not seem to be the rule. It seems to be the exception.
02:32:43
Speaker
Everyone else is dead or miserable and scared. And so i don't know, you know, don i don't know. no I love that. I really appreciate that. I, I, that obviously makes like so much sense. Like he literally just, yeah, killed and ate Eddie at the very least. Like that's just one person that he has harmed in that way. And he, ah to he's just an anti-hero. Like he's not, he's the main character of the movie. And You want to, like, love him. And, you know, if I was in the musical theater field, I don't know how this would even happen. But I just mean, like, I can imagine that everyone would want to play Frankenfurter. Like, that's the role you want to play if you're going to be in Rocky Horror. That's the funnest role.
02:33:30
Speaker
That's the campiest role. That's, like, but but you're the main character. um And yet he's not really a protagonist as such, right? He's just, yeah, like, he... he does really bad things. um And mean it i mean it's worth pointing out also also that like he's not the only one to die because Riff Raff also kills Columbia and then it takes a while but he eventually kills Rocky. And actually there's this really nice shot of Rocky being super distraught over Frankenfurter's death and he hoists him on his back and climbs up the RKO tower
02:34:06
Speaker
backdrop and riffraff is like shooting the laser beam and i guess because rocky is so muscled and like a frankenstein of sorts like he's hard to kill and finally um he falls backwards with frankenfurter on his back into the pool it's a really really cool shot um so in that sense it's not like frankenfurter is the only one to be killed by riffraff at the end Yeah, and I think that scene is like so nice because I think it's Rocky's conflict. Rocky doesn't isn't very articulate, right? um
02:34:38
Speaker
He has his song and that's about all we really hear from him out loud. But I think that this speaks to the complexity, right? Like this is still his creator. And so there is still that affection there. And he does seem really distressed while this is happening. And then they they both die and they're shot by the antimatter which is another favorite callback is he's like but a be a beam of pure anti-matter and then everyone goes does that mean it doesn't matter and then after he shoots columbia people are like oh shit it works good which like adds so much levity to such an intense moment but
02:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and I think antihero is is the exact category that Frank slots into. And even some of these quotes from the book kind of touch on that. Like there's Tanya Marquardt. I don't think I'm pronouncing that right. I'm really doing my best.
02:35:30
Speaker
wrote in their essay, frank inverter is the antagonist that you love to hate but love to love and embodiment of taboo in all its form fucking fighting feeding and fleeing he wants what he wants when he wants it his alien ways means he sees humans as toys things to get off on experiment on look down on when his toys have emotions and worse're still boundaries we begin to see frank infferter's ultimate flaw he can't bear rejection And when met with a no, his reactions range from petulant to psychotic, sexually assaultive to sociopathic.
02:36:07
Speaker
Right? So we do love him. We love to love him. We love his entrances. We love his glamour. We love his attitude and the sensuality that he exudes.
02:36:18
Speaker
But he doesn't care about anyone. He doesn't care about anything but himself. This quote posits, right, that it's because he's an alien, but I don't know if that's why. Like, I think that's an interesting take.
02:36:31
Speaker
Like I said, this book is full of essays that don't agree with each other. So like, that's just one version of it. And maybe it's because he's an alien. And maybe it's just how he is because he's Frank. Maybe it's actually that simple, too. But either way, he's like a petulant child.
02:36:49
Speaker
But he's wrapped in sex and glitter and glamour and like just oozes charisma.
Character Accountability and Cultural Reflections
02:36:56
Speaker
And it's just, it's a really interesting, it's a really interesting combination of things to exist in a single character. I don't know. It's like hard to, it's like hard to even explain,
02:37:08
Speaker
frank ah Oh god, yeah. But I like that read on it. i think I'd agree. And he like, so I just characterized him as the main character of this musical. But like, I think in his brain, like, as a character, like he sees himself as the main character, right? Like people talk about that nowadays. It's like, almost like a slang term or whatever. Like, like, he literally thinks he's the main attraction in any room he walks into.
02:37:36
Speaker
And it is in some ways it's kind of true because he's so like larger than life and extroverted and everything. But like the quote says, like the second that someone is defiant towards him in some way, it's like, wait, what? Like, I'm the most important person here. How can you not realize that?
02:37:53
Speaker
Totally. Main character syndrome, big time. yeah And I think, like, as we're talking about this, I'm really thinking, too, about how I'm i'm still stuck on the, like, protect from society thing and, like, how that makes sense for Frank. And, like...
02:38:08
Speaker
I think um this is maybe a hot take. This is like maybe like like a warm take because it's not that crazy, but it's like a warm take. I think that Frank being punished, I'm not going to say getting killed because like I just don't really like that just isn't really my vibe,
02:38:23
Speaker
but I think Frank having some level of accountability for his actions is as important as Frank being as audaciously sexual and gender fucky and all of these other things for the movie.
02:38:39
Speaker
And like for what we learn from the movie, because we should be ourselves and we should be free But that also requires us to respect the freedom of others and respect their right to like be themselves and live how they want to live and that we can't impose.
02:38:58
Speaker
Right. That's where we become monsters is when we start to impose. And so one of the essays by Holly Joy Wurtman says the crime for which Frank is ultimately punished is allowing his excessive desires to hurt other people.
02:39:12
Speaker
Frank's downfall extends beyond parties and indulgence. Instead, the film serves as a cautionary tale about how Frankenfurter discards and mistreats those around him in his pursuit of hedonism.
02:39:25
Speaker
And then they go on to say Frank gets close to creating a world in his image and forcing that on others. He and his followers dive into a pool. This is the thing about the painting.
02:39:35
Speaker
He and his followers dive into the pool where he floats above a representation of the painting, The Creation of Adam. A wide zoom out reveals Frank between the outstretched hands of Adam and his creator.
02:39:48
Speaker
Just as Frank positioned himself in our human world as an all-powerful giver and taker of life through Rocky and Eddie, in these acts, Frank committed a cardinal sin to play at being God.
02:40:01
Speaker
So Frank is punished. Right. So he is overstepping. He's taking it too far. It's not that he's taking it too far because of how queer he is. It's not taking it too far because of how sexual he is.
02:40:12
Speaker
He's taking it too far because he has such an inflated sense of power and authority that he he thinks that just because he didn't want to be like everyone else, that everyone has to be like him.
02:40:24
Speaker
And that's also a problem. But I really like one of the things that this essay ended on. And it says, this community taught me that I can be whoever I want as long as I am kind.
02:40:36
Speaker
And I think that like that message only comes through ah Frank is somehow held accountable. Right. It's it's how do we take the unabashed queerness and say that's actually not what the problem was.
02:40:51
Speaker
The problem was the blatant disregard for the humanity of others. And so how do we learn the lessons we need to learn from Frank Inferter, both in how to be ourselves and how to be bold and how to like show up and make the whole room look at you if that's what you want.
02:41:07
Speaker
but also to never forget that everyone else really does matter just as much as we do. really love that. that's so well said. i think, like, for me, like, the culture of Rocky Horror is about queerness and all the things we've been talking about, all the the themes we've been talking about, and the pleasure and and even excess of it all.
02:41:30
Speaker
But I think then, like, with Frankenfurter's death and punishment, however you want to call it. I think that's that's more about like the actual plot, right? And the fact that it's ah a take on classic science fiction movies, and he's kind of a villain, and you kill the villain. And like, so to me, it's not...
02:41:48
Speaker
like Like you're saying, it's not about killing him because he's queer. Like, I've never read it that way anyways. um It's like, yeah, he's done some bad things and, like, in some way he has to pay so he gets laser beam thrown at him, whatever the fuck it is.
02:42:04
Speaker
um And it's not even, like... I don't know why I process it this way. Like, I don't process it as something, like, super sad. I think it's also because it just goes by so quick. But it's just such a campy and over-the-top movie anyways. And the laser beams, think you'd mentioned this earlier on, are, like...
02:42:21
Speaker
You know, it's so, it's like 1970s special effects. the Like, I love it. And not even like the best version of those. Like, it's like the worst version of those.
02:42:32
Speaker
Even the sound effects are really like silly. But it's just kind of like, okay, well, the movie has to end in some way, shape, or form. And I think it would have been weird to have it end with Frank and Furtick being like, all right, well...
02:42:46
Speaker
I'm going to sing my song. I'm sad, but um let's let's all go home. And then they just go back to their planet. Like, no, this's not how like i that's not how I envision old school science fiction movies to end. So I think it's just that too. It's like kind of just a plot thing. really right because the basic plot is just standard it's very standard um and I don't mean that in a negative I think like the the joy of it is that it takes this very standard plot and like does so much with it so it's it's so much fun and like the thing is like I said at the beginning like the context of this is the community and like the world built around Rocky Horror and not just the movie itself anymore like I can't
02:43:28
Speaker
I wasn't there. so like, I can't divorce my knowledge and experiences of the community from just the movie strictly in its own thing. Like, even the consent stuff, I think like, part of why I have trouble being bothered by it, I think is one, the read that I gave earlier, but I think too,
02:43:48
Speaker
is because I have never seen such a consent positive space as Rocky Horror. Like, you get there, and they lay out all the rules about touching, and they say, like, the audience members might touch you, but if you don't want them to, mostly they, you know, they if you don't want them to, they won't.
02:44:04
Speaker
You cannot touch them unless they invite you to. Like, it's all very strict. And even the sacrifices thing, like, ultimately, I've never seen someone, like, get dragged up as a virgin. I do think people should do it. Like, I think if you're going to go, even if you're, like, nervous, uncomfortable, if you're a certain level of uncomfortable, obviously don't do it. But I think if you're, like, uncomfortable, Justin, like...
02:44:27
Speaker
the kind of normal way. I think it's worth doing. It's very fun. It'll be a fond memory for like the rest of your life. But I've never seen someone get like dragged up there. You know what I mean? Like, I've never seen someone really get pushed beyond like a little nudge of like, hey, it's a little anxiety provoking to be on stage, but like get out, get up there. It'll be fun.
02:44:46
Speaker
and it's all very encouraging and safe. And like, I think that this is a really vulnerable space for young queer people. And I do think that that can be kind of fraught. Like that's your exposure to like queer elders and like some of whom are lovely and will like invite you and teach you and do all of these things that make your life better. And like some of whom are not going to be great because we're just people also, you know, and So it's very fraught, but i my experiences with it, which, again, are just mine, have all felt so safe that, like, I can't imagine reading too heavily into the consent stuff in a space where I feel like no one would ever expect me to do something I was not comfortable with.
02:45:30
Speaker
Thank you for sharing that. I think that's so powerful. and it's not to like, I don't think either of us thinks that queer spaces are inherently perfect and angelic. And like, again, like you just said, we're all just people too. Like it's not to put being queer or queer people on a pedestal at all.
02:45:48
Speaker
But i do think like but if we're talking specifically, specifically about Rocky Horror, there is some kind of magic to it where I think it comes back to your point early on in our discussion of like, when you see those red lips at the opening of the movie, if you, if it grabs you and you're into that, you're then going to be into the whole movie. And if you're into the whole movie, like it makes you a cool person. I like, do you know I mean? Like it, agree. I totally agree.
02:46:15
Speaker
Like it necessitates, like I doesn't, you don't have to be queer obviously to connect with this movie, but at the same time, I don't think it speaks to... I don't think it's for hetero people. I don't i do not think this movie is for the, like, cis hetero people. Unless they're super weird.
02:46:35
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. In the book, I'm going to not say the quote totally accurately, but in the book, a couple of the essays mention the bell hooks definition of queer. That's like queerness, not as about who you're sleeping with, but as about being at odds with the world around you. That's not, it's, it's like along those lines.
02:46:52
Speaker
And that's who Rocky Horror is for. Like, It's like, it may you may be queer in the literal sense and you may not be, but like there's something about the way you exist in the world. I think like a lot of neurodivergent people probably even would fit into here, right? But like, ah there's something about the way you move through the world that has been deemed unacceptable.
02:47:11
Speaker
And like here is a space where you could just do that and like it's fine. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Like this is, this is weird. Like i I come back to the word campy too, or just camp. Like this is also kind of like the definition of camp. And like, I love the like glam rock of it all. And like just the mix of styles and the genres of music.
02:47:36
Speaker
It's just such a Frankenstein's monster of a musical. And that's like by and for weird people. Um, and i I am someone that like, this is not to go on too long of a tangent, but like, I've always been viscerally aware that A lot of people, when they interact with me, probably think I'm weird in some way.
02:48:02
Speaker
um and I'm just, like, very hyper-aware of that. And so then when i when I turn to media like this, specifically film and television, ah movie like Rocky Horror is just like, yeah, like, this is for me. Like, this is I don't have to even identify with any specific one character in this movie. It's just like this type of artistic moment is inclusive of me.
02:48:30
Speaker
And
Speculation on Brad and Janet's Future
02:48:31
Speaker
that just feels really good. And that's really special. And so any... it It can be hard to take things at face value when you watch something like this because it is that's almost like not the point. Like, it's not to say that we can't critique things in it. And I love what you said throughout our discussion of, like, if you feel this way about this scene, you're right. Like, it's anyone can feel anything they want about this movie.
02:48:55
Speaker
But I think it's, before we started recording, I think I said something along the lines of like, this is this is mostly like a vibes-based movie. Like, I can't really, like, there's, yes, there's a plot, but like, is there? And also like, sure, things happen, but do they? Like, it's it's vibes, it's an atmosphere, it's a thing, like it's bigger than itself.
02:49:15
Speaker
And so I don't, it's hard to yeah. certain scenes or what happens in the movie into like neat boxes, even though i came into our discussion maybe doing that in my own brain and I'm happy that I will leave it not doing that anymore.
02:49:32
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. so there is a like There is a desire to put things into boxes, right? There's like a human desire. But I think half of this, half of queerness is like rejecting the boxes, right? So we might as well reject them for the movie too.
02:49:45
Speaker
But, okay, I have a question based on the way our notes were formatted. Did you watch a version that has superheroes at the end? i can't remember. i do Is it like just the final song or the final part of the film? I think so.
02:50:03
Speaker
It's the final song, but it's not it's it's a song. It's not just the criminologist outro. Yeah, so then probably not, but I feel like I must have heard it. like It's on the soundtrack. Okay, wait. I feel like... Can I ask you to watch it now? and Tell me what you Oh, yeah. Okay.
02:50:19
Speaker
Unless I just never stick around long enough to get... to get to it which would be i think that it's like an american version and a uk version or something um there is like a version that has it in a version that doesn't so it's okay very like within possibility that you have seen one that does not have it this is so funny i'm pretty sure i have seen this but not in the version that's on disney plus okay so i must have like i know the song that's a funny thing so i don't know Sorry, I know i'm talking while it's playing, but... um
02:50:54
Speaker
Like, I absolutely know this song. So I wonder if they've just like... Oh, that's... Okay, sorry. I know. i'm I'm like... No, it's okay. It's okay. I just wanted to make sure you had seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:51:05
Speaker
Because... Okay, I feel like it's like almost like a Mandela effect or something. I don't know. Something weird has happened where maybe like the version I used to watch did contain this, but then in the last few years, whatever I've been watching does not. I will say that when I searched on Google superheroes, Rocky Horror, one of the first things that comes up is...
02:51:22
Speaker
um Reddit r slash Rocky Horror. Why was superheroes cut on Disney Plus? so okay So that is the version without it. So we can confirm that the streaming version on Disney Plus does not have it.
02:51:34
Speaker
That's also probably why I felt like, I think I put in my notes where I said earlier, I was like, the movie just kind of ends. But I knew in my head, I was like why It feels like it doesn't. And it's because, yeah, okay, see, I'm seeing Dr. Scott. Of course, I've totally seen this.
02:51:50
Speaker
Oh God, Disney. What the fuck? Jesus. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Like, I don't know. That's so weird to me, but I just, I just wanted to make sure that you had seen it. And if not, I wanted to like, make sure you see it now.
02:52:01
Speaker
oh Yeah. It's, it's almost done. Yeah. And then it's like spinning. Yeah. And then the globe, of course. Yeah. And then the criminologist. Oh my God. I'm so happy you brought this up because it was like a locked away memory.
02:52:17
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, that's so much better of an ending than them just, it's just like a shot of them on the floor for one second and then the movie's done. Yeah. That's weird.
02:52:29
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So in superheroes, yeah, it's like Brad and Janet still in their like show girly outfits crawling around and singing and Dr. Scott is like on the ground and his wheelchair is broken and then it like spins out to the criminologist who does the little outro. So what do you think is next for them? What do you think? Like, okay, there's, I mean, to be fair, there's a sequel.
02:52:54
Speaker
I take it as its own separate thing. It's kind of fun. I actually don't dislike it, but I don't really take it as, like, Rocky Horror canon. I kind of just, like, take it as its own thing. It's called... What is that? It's called Shock Treatment.
02:53:07
Speaker
I don't even want to get into the... plot i I should rewatch it, too. I don't really want to get all the way into the plot, but it is about Brad and Janet. It's not the same actors, and it's... fun I actually, like, I found it fun. I've only seen it once. I found it very fun. Like I said, I don't really take it as Rocky Horror canon, but...
02:53:22
Speaker
It does exist. So if I'm asking you what I think comes next, I feel like I should at least acknowledge that like someone did make a what comes next. But what do you think comes next? First of all, I think they each sleep for like 12 hours straight.
02:53:37
Speaker
um Yeah, i that I think that that probably is true. I think really is that they probably for a while they won't be able to look at each other in in the eye.
02:53:52
Speaker
Like in the sense that they'll just be like, did that really happen to us? And what does it mean for us? I would imagine they don't get married. I don't know. It can be one of those experiences where you then, well, especially because now the characters, the people they've met are no longer on this planet anyway.
02:54:09
Speaker
So they go back to their lives because they have to. It could be either way. It could be that that brings Brad and Janet closer together. And they're like, well, now we're just really developed people, but let's still be together. And we're just going this really cool new life as our new selves.
02:54:26
Speaker
But I'd probably lean more towards them being like, all right, that was kind of crazy. See, yeah like and just being like, go on in their separate ways, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
02:54:38
Speaker
I think for a long time, i felt like they would still end up together, not even so much in this like nice way that you presented it as an option, but more in the sense of like, there's no one else on this earth who has like witnessed this.
02:54:53
Speaker
And so I need to keep this person around just like for my sanity almost. And I know some people, yeah, think that it's like their lives are going to be shaken up and like maybe reshaped for the better after they leave.
02:55:07
Speaker
um One of the essays takes a very bleak vision of the ending. And I hate to say that I do think it resonates with me and I do think it seems accurate. Again, there's no right read on this, but it was just like i read this and was like, oh, i that feels true in my heart.
02:55:23
Speaker
Grace Lavery labor ah wrote, this is not a coming out story for good and for ill. At the end, Brad and Janet are left to rebuild somehow the reductively ludicrous heterosexual life they had set out upon before the transvestite and his cohort got their mitts all over the lovers.
02:55:42
Speaker
That is that like, do they just go back and like try to pretend that this didn't happen and like shut themselves back away into this normal life that they had set out upon but I keep coming back to that essay about the lies like like and how how that was all a lie and like do they go back to the lie I don't know don't I keep going back and forth but it's just like an interesting definitely an interesting thing to think about absolutely love that as you framing it as do they go back to the lie because that's what it is and like
02:56:19
Speaker
god I feel like I'm like on my soapbox a lot right now but do think heteronormativity specifically not heterosexuality but like heteronormativity as a thing to me it just like looks one way you're supposed to be one type of person in that framework and no human being is just one thing or no human being feels right in their body when they're trying to fit into a box, right?
02:56:51
Speaker
The levels of distress that people experience can vary, but we know we're we born with that sense of like knowing whether the conformity we're experiencing feels right or not. Anyways, yeah what my related thought there is that queerness is the opposite of that. It's this expansiveness, it's this openness, and it doesn't mean that every human being needs to say they're queer or be queer or like, I also like, i don't care who you sleep with. I don't care who like what label you want to use. Like, it's not about that, just
02:57:25
Speaker
just to Like, I just love, I'm just trying to, I don't even know what I'm trying to say I think there's so many people who do go back to the lie after they've had an experience like this.
02:57:40
Speaker
don't know what kind of similar experience a human would have, but anyways, like an experience where you're shown new reality. I think actually Janet uses the word reality in the floor show at some point.
02:57:52
Speaker
um, you're shown a way of being that's different and possible. And you're like, Oh wait, what? Like I, I could be this way. Like I could live like this, but then for whatever reason you're brought back quote unquote down to earth and In a lot of ways, it's easier to conform.
02:58:09
Speaker
And yeah, I can totally imagine Brad and Janet being like, okay, let's try and even forget, actually like completely forget that that happened. We've got, we know what path we're on. This was only one night. It's not like it was five months of our time. Like it was just this one night, crazy things happened.
02:58:26
Speaker
Let's get back on track. But like you brought up, like that will not feel right to them no matter what. Even thinking about the boxes, And like you said, like the level of like distress someone feels inside a box will vary. And I think the thing is, i think there are some people who don't feel distressed because they happen to be the shape of the box.
02:58:51
Speaker
And they misinterpret that as thinking the box is safe and good. Like I like, for example, like I like school, like I like school type of learning. I learn well in like classrooms, textbooks, lectures,
02:59:05
Speaker
And like, I didn't realize until I was an adult, like how problematic that structure was, because it was fine for me. Like, I was like, this is great. Like, I'm learning. and I think like, I could have gone my whole life being like, well, that's a good box. You know what I mean? But like, i I think there was like a point where I was like, oh, I just like happened to be shaped like that.
02:59:24
Speaker
And like, that's not by my own doing. And that's not by the boxes doing. I just like happened to be that type of person. And I gotta like know for real that that doesn't say anything about the box, actually.
02:59:38
Speaker
That doesn't make the box good. It just makes me box shaped. It's not something that we can like carry through to mean anything. And I think that's the thing, right? Like I think that the people who do happen to be you shaped the right way,
02:59:53
Speaker
the right quote, like major air quotes on right, but who happen to be shaped in this heteronormative shape. Some of them do feel distressed, even if they're still straight, even if they're still cis, just because it is such a narrow box. But I also think that there are people who are box shaped, who are loud, and like think that the box is fine because the box never hurt them.
03:00:14
Speaker
You know, but the box hurts a lot of people. And I think most boxes hurt a lot of people. my god, I love how you put that. That makes so much sense. Being box-shaped. Like, I just never thought of it that way, and that's so wise.
03:00:28
Speaker
Oh yeah, i I mean, yeah, I think Brad and Janet are not going to feel, if they felt box-shaped before, they certainly will not feel it. just anymore and i wish them the best. yeah I highly doubt that they had felt box shaped prior to this.
03:00:42
Speaker
But yeah, so that's I mean, that's the movie. We'll obviously keep talking about it, but like that's the movie. We have like now encapsulated the movie as best as we can. Please watch. Like if you're listening to this and you haven't seen Rocky Horror, like actually you're doing things wrong with your life. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but like please go watch it Like indulge yourself.
03:01:04
Speaker
ah Be aware of the consent things. I know that can be triggering for people. You can skip that scene if you really feel like you need to. Maybe us talking about it will have... diluted some of that but if not you know whatever but if you've never seen it ah really do implore you to like give it a chance especially through the lens of like like I think it is kind of fascinating for a grown adult to watch it in 2025 like obviously if you're a young person like you can't watch it before now but like if if you somehow could have watched it earlier in life and just haven't yet i think that is like so interesting because it it is so of its time
03:01:44
Speaker
Like, if Richard O'Brien was younger and came up with the idea today, that's not going to look like what it is. So it is a product of its time, but I think in one of the best ways.
03:01:56
Speaker
Like, there are so many movies that you look at it, like old movies you look at and you go like, oh, God, we don't need this. It's done. Leave it behind. You can remake it better. Like, there's a lot of movies like that. And and this one's just not like that.
03:02:10
Speaker
No, this one's not. We need this one. We need. And I like... I don't feel that way about very many things. Like, I don't really, like, care about Harry Potter anymore. Like, I... I know that that's really deep for some people. i know, a lot I even know a lot of trans people that that like runs too deep for to let go of. And like, that's your journey to walk. But like, we need Rocky Horror. I just really, i really think we do. We need the movie and we need the community. Like I really, i really, and a lot of the essays in this book were written by really young people, like our, like our age-ish and younger. And that was so reassuring to me because i do think that I have some level of fear
03:02:51
Speaker
that it will run its course in my lifetime. And I just don't want that to happen. I just don't want that to happen. So it was really nice to see people even younger than I am who are doing shadow casts, who care enough to write an essay, like who care enough to write an essay about it. You know what I mean? Like that was so comforting to me.
03:03:12
Speaker
But I think now that we've like gotten through the movie and all the things and like while we're talking about like these elements that are maybe a little bit less that haven't aged as well and like that are more controversial. I know
Critique of Heteronormativity and Queer Identity
03:03:26
Speaker
you found an article about like transphobia and Rocky Horror. So do you want to talk a little bit about the article and just like what your own thoughts were based on the article? And yeah, like just kind of start unpacking that to the best that you and I can.
03:03:41
Speaker
When I was doing my research, this was the only article that I'd come across that I remembered talked about Rocky Horror in recent years. think this came out last year.
03:03:52
Speaker
It's an article on Them. don't know you'd call it a publication. um The title is, Yes, Rocky Horror is Transphobic. Why do we still like it so much? And it includes a discussion between Fran Torado and Samantha Allen.
03:04:07
Speaker
um And I just think it's really interesting. There are some like differing views or There's a lot of holding space. Yes, Wicked is coming up soon, so sorry, I had to say that at some point.
03:04:17
Speaker
But um they really do like hold space ah for the nuances of this movie. I don't think anyone could realistically disagree that this movie is nuanced. like it's It is really um complex in a lot of ways.
03:04:31
Speaker
One quote really like is the following. um It's unambiguous critique of heteronormativity was weird even for the 70s and likely part of the reason its initial reviews were so unfavorable.
03:04:44
Speaker
Audiences weren't prepared to see themselves humiliated, to be prodded at and shoved into an uncomfortable world of freakdom. I actually really like that word freakdom. think that that is ah really fun word use.
03:04:57
Speaker
to to use And then in terms of frank and the Frank-N-Furter of it all, so we get another quote, Furter is a self-identified sweet transvestite and sings a whole song about it.
03:05:09
Speaker
But beyond the character's gender nonconformity, the movie is also incredibly anarchist and quite bisexual too. Frank-N-Furter employs, yes, problematic sexual user patient?
03:05:20
Speaker
Sorry, don't know how to pronounce that word. i mean There's an inexplicable meatloaf cameo and the power of song ultimately helps Brad and Janet shed their normcore sensibilities Before the mansion launches off the earth like a rocket back into space.
03:05:33
Speaker
I think it's just kind of the article just kind of details like when you're especially when you're looking at it from like today's lens, a modern lens, of course, you.
03:05:44
Speaker
can find like problematic aspects of how and I mean we've already discussed this but like how it depicts the trans umbrella but I think what I like about it I mean there's so many words here there's so many terms that I appreciate the gender non-conformity the anarchism i think that's a huge huge part of this like oh I think it's like such a rich undercurrent of this movie is just like fuck mainstream culture like fuck traditional American values like fuck that shit like we don't need it it holds people back it ruins the planet like everyone's depressed like so I love the use of the word anarchism
03:06:24
Speaker
Anyways, i think the article is worth reading because it's a a really nice discussion. And then the one of the final lines or maybe the final line of the article says, I would issue a plea to anyone looking to problematize Rocky Horror or any cultural object really. Dissect it, don't discard it.
03:06:41
Speaker
And sometimes I'm a bit like I need to take that advice. Sometimes there are things I watch where I'm just like, this is so problematic. i cannot stand behind this. Why would anyone watch this? And I mean, like, honestly, there are things that like, I just genuinely think people shouldn't watch or like, it's just really just, yeah, like, capitably bad. But um I think I just need to do that a bit less.
03:07:06
Speaker
And I think a movie like Rocky Horror is great, Like if someone hasn't watched it, I think it's a great example of like watching it, knowing it was in the 70s, like trying to put it in context and not throwing it away because it's not perfect and because it's not, it wasn't made with anything.
03:07:29
Speaker
a 2025 sensibility. Yeah, for sure. and And one of the other quotes that you have in the notes from this article gets to something I kind of talked about earlier that says, queer characters should be allowed to do bad and even terrible things.
03:07:44
Speaker
Stories aren't interesting if everyone is operating with the same set of ethical rules. Movies don't need to be morality tales. And I, it's so funny because I think that is so true. But then at the end, I'm like, this is a morality tale for these exact reasons. And, and coming back to the anarchy of it all, I think one of the moral lessons here is that anarchy without compassion is not really better than what we have right now, actually.
03:08:12
Speaker
And i it's just fine it's just funny. Like, I totally agree that, like, queer characters should just be allowed to be terrible and evil and horrible and assholes. But it's funny that they're, like, movies don't need to be morality tales when, to me, there's so much morality tale in this movie.
03:08:31
Speaker
Yeah, I can definitely see that. And I did just take like a couple of quotes about just watching Rocky Horror and people's perception of it. i There's just two that really stuck out to me that didn't have a better place to go, but I really wanted to include...
03:08:46
Speaker
from the essay collection. um One is Margo Atwell saying, watching Rocky Horror for the first time felt like being Dorothy landing in Oz. Stepping out of a home rendered in black and white into a technicolor wonderland.
03:08:59
Speaker
Rocky Horror wasn't gay. It was queer. It was weird and horrifying and violent and sexy and fun, full of campy winks and nods and the total opposite of everything that heterosexual, cisgender, monogamous, patriarchal society demanded and enforced.
03:09:17
Speaker
I'm sitting here, like, clapping. Like, I'm like, yes, that's exactly fucking it. Like, that's it. Like, to me, i love that that they say, like, Rocky Horror wasn't gay, it was queer.
03:09:30
Speaker
Like, to me, that's a pretty huge distinction. And there's so much intersection, obviously. It's just, the more I think about queerness, the more expansive it becomes to me.
03:09:40
Speaker
Almost as, like, a way of life, or... it's so much bigger, like, not to get too sidetracked, but, like, I'm... it's been years now that I'm like really over the phrase, like love is love or like let people love who they want. I'm like, I like, yes, but also we can't stop there. It's not just that. It's not like,
03:09:59
Speaker
We, it's it's not about saying like, oh my God, okay, I'm gay. And now I'm going to do everything that heteronormative culture tells me I should do. I'm just going to do it as a gay person. Like that to me is not queerness.
03:10:12
Speaker
It's, it's so, it's so different to that. Anyways, I'm trying not to devolve into like, i Do you know what i mean? No, i totally know what you mean. And I'm here for the sidetrack even, honestly. And I i mean, i think a lot about the idea of like queer as a verb, like queer in your own life.
03:10:30
Speaker
And I think that's kind of like what you're getting at. It's not love who you love. It's like let people be who and how they are. And that might look like a lot of things. And I think it's an example of how like the more we make things welcoming for people,
03:10:43
Speaker
trans people, for example, like the better off we really all are. And like it it just it just ripples out from whatever group needs the acceptance into acceptance for everybody more than there is.
03:10:54
Speaker
And I think that this is how this has a lot of that in it. I mean, this queers the movie experience, right? Like it's it's like the movie going experience has been queered by Rocky Horror in a way that feels really profound.
03:11:08
Speaker
ah One of the other quotes from the book that I really liked about just about the movie and the experience of seeing the movie is by Birch Rosen. And it says, it was sexy, resplendently alive and old enough to connect me to a queer legacy while still feeling utterly novel in its weirdness.
03:11:25
Speaker
And I think that's why it's so timeless. And I think that's why it's like, so that's why all of these things we're saying. That's why we're saying them because it does all of these things that seem so at odds with each other almost. Like, how can it connect me to, like, queer legacy, but also give me thoughts about the queer future?
03:11:44
Speaker
And, like, how does it relate to where we are today and where we might... Like, it's just so... and it still surprises me. I mean, not... I've seen it 10 million times, but but it's, like, still surprising to people when they see it the first time, even though it's so ubiquitous, even though queerness is more in the culture now. Like, we still...
03:12:03
Speaker
it still has surprises in store for you through all of it. And it's just so good. It's
Richard O'Brien's Controversial Views
03:12:08
Speaker
just so fun. really is. And then one of the other things we've already touched on a little bit, but I think it's still worth diving deeper into, is the creator, Richard O'Brien, and his views, and also like how his views have changed over the years, but kind of like not really.
03:12:28
Speaker
But what I find fascinating, so in 2009, this is according to Wikipedia, but it was sourced, but anyway anyways. um He described himself as trans, specifically he said in between male and female. He just didn't specify the term non-binary.
03:12:45
Speaker
So I found that like super interesting. Then, as you had mentioned earlier, by 2017, he starts saying things like trans women are not real women. But he's like, it's so frustrating.
03:12:59
Speaker
And then 2020, he stated, just, I don't even know if i want to quote this. It's kind of just fucked up things, telling people, like telling trans people that they can't become, quote unquote, a natural woman. Like it's it's really, really upsetting to me. It's very frustrating and it always sucks when um the creator of a piece of media that is so beloved um has views that are so disparaging or harmful.
03:13:31
Speaker
And I don't know why he can't take the beauty of Like, recognizing that perhaps he belongs, like, he identifies with the non-binary label. Like, why does that mean that you have to close your doors and, like, close ranks and tell trans women specifically that they're not real? but Like, what, like, who, like, it's just so frustratingly the same rhetoric as J.K. Rowling. And, like, I just, it just, like, makes me super sad. But you had some really interesting thoughts or...
03:14:07
Speaker
quotes on this. Yeah, I want to preface all of this with saying that like everything that he has said has been blatantly transphobic. So this is not to say that he is not transphobic. This is not a defense.
03:14:20
Speaker
This is just what i think about. Like, this is what I think about him being transphobic, I think is like what I'm getting at. It's so much internalized transphobia and so much self-loathing.
03:14:33
Speaker
And you see it in some of his other statements that he's made about more inward-focused ones. He's quoted as saying, "...being transgender is a kind of curse.
03:14:44
Speaker
All my life, I've been fighting never belonging, never being male or female, and it got to the stage where I couldn't deal with it any longer." to feel you don't belong, to feel insane, so feel perverted and disgusting, you go fucking nuts.
03:15:00
Speaker
And you do, like, you do go fucking nuts. And he did go fucking nuts, kind of. And, like, that's, I think, where a lot of this comes from. and then he's quoted as saying that he had grown up believing there was something wrong with me and that I was somehow damaged and dirty.
03:15:16
Speaker
And I just think that these things have been so ingrained and he's gotten far enough in his own journey to be like, this is who I am and this is how I show up in the world. And I think that somewhere in there is the knowledge that this is all bullshit anyway. And like, none of this is real.
03:15:34
Speaker
And I think a part of him, like, and again, I'm not trying to defend him. What he has said is really unacceptable, but it's like, you can see that he's once, it's like, it's like, you know, when like,
03:15:45
Speaker
but like someone shitty goes to therapy and they walk right up to the point, but then like don't quite cross that threshold. It's like that. He's like so close to realizing that this is all made up anyway. And like, actually like no one can be a natural woman because that just isn't a real thing that exists in the world.
03:16:03
Speaker
And he's so close to it, but he's so, I think there's just this brick wall of self-loathing that stands between him and that realization. yeah, ah Nino McQuown wrote in their essay about the ending of the movie.
03:16:19
Speaker
It's about when Magenta says to Riff Raff, like, you killed them. I thought you liked them. They liked you. And Riff Raff says, they didn't like me. They never liked me. And the author wrote, it is about the damage and the dirtiness that never goes away no matter how much they say they like you.
03:16:38
Speaker
It's about queer unbelonging. It is about being a monster among monsters and not even being wanted there. And I think that it's really crucial that he gave this line to himself. Like, he gave himself this role.
03:16:52
Speaker
of literally being told you're all right by me by dr Scott and he can't internalize it. He can't be accepted. And I think particularly for trans people who are often excluded by the queer community and who are often thrown under the bus,
03:17:10
Speaker
It's like this phrase about it's about being a monster among monsters and not being wanted even there. Like it's like even in these queer spaces, something about him feels so at odds with everybody around him. And he is not able to reconcile that.
03:17:25
Speaker
And because he can't reconcile it for himself, he's like lobbing that in everyone else's face. And so... Again, I say all this to not say that he's not transphobic. He is blatantly transphobic in many of his quotes.
03:17:42
Speaker
And I feel really strongly that I can see what's going on there. And we have all these little nuggets that create this picture of him as someone who...
03:17:54
Speaker
Can't accept it because then he would have to accept himself and something is disrupting that process internally so much. And like if he said it was okay for other people, he would have to actually admit that it's okay for him.
03:18:09
Speaker
And he can't. And so he can't. And like, i feel frustrated by his inability to like take in some of the messaging of his own art.
03:18:20
Speaker
But I also feel really bad for him. and that doesn't outweigh my frustration with him and my disappointment in the things that he says. But I just feel horrible for him because he has given us so much before he started saying these things. And I wish that he had gotten more out of it.
03:18:40
Speaker
And I wish that he had taken in some of what he has given to other people because... He's given a lot of people a way into their own identity and their own queerness and their own sense of belonging and community.
03:18:55
Speaker
And it seems like that's always eluded him. And I just, I feel horrible.
Conclusion: Embracing Rocky Horror's Legacy
03:18:59
Speaker
Like I feel so sad for him. And I just feel like none of what he's saying is okay. And also like it all makes a lot of sense put into the context of who he is and what we know about him and what we know about his personality.
03:19:14
Speaker
stories that he tells about who he is and how he understands himself. And so, like I said, i don't, I'm not trying to defend. I'm not, I don't think like, if you think that he's transphobic, you're right. He literally is.
03:19:30
Speaker
I do think I wish people had the tiniest bit more empathy because he is stuck apparently in the cycle that Frank was stuck in of feeling like an outsider and then lashing out and then being more cast aside and then lashing out more. And like, it just goes on and on and on and on. yeah,
03:19:56
Speaker
I don't think he's ever going to be able to say like enough is enough on that front. And yeah, I just, I just hope that people have empathy for him. I don't think that they owe him anything really, but I think I would challenge people to try to feel empathy towards someone who clearly has some level of understanding about all of this, but has never been able to emotionally digest it.
03:20:26
Speaker
Because that's a really sad place to be. That's a really beautiful read on it I think that all makes so much sense. And I think what it what it comes down to really is you might have already even said the phrase, but internalized transphobia, right? Like, ah not to bring her up again, but, you know, as opposed to someone like J.K. Rowling, who...
03:20:50
Speaker
for, I don't know, all intents and purposes is cis and and straight. um That's not the same thing. That's, she thinks that trans people are dangerous and et ceterat cetera, et cetera.
03:21:03
Speaker
And I think this is different with Richard O'Brien. I don't, see it as the exact same thing I think like everything you just said is makes perfect sense to me of just like I mean he's also like how old is he at this point like probably pretty fucking old and like not this not any kind of excuse but i think it just gives context of like he didn't grow up with like TikTok and Instagram and like you know connecting with queer people in 1.2 seconds every day like that's really different place to grow up in. And to be honest, it's already such a crazy feat that he came up with this musical, but it's hard to imagine like what a battle it is internally to recognize all these things about yourself versus if you're growing up now, there's lots of battles your way. Not not to say that to growing up today is easy.
03:21:55
Speaker
There's so much more language at our disposal nowadays There is so much more community, um depending where you live in the world. And i think that helps a lot.
03:22:06
Speaker
doesn't make being a queer person in 2025 easy, but it's different than when he was growing up. I do think that comes into play. And there was something he said 2023,
03:22:20
Speaker
I'm gonna interpret as him kind of but becoming more open-minded. I don't really know what to make of it, but um he said, we all know that nobody asks to be born straight or gay. We seem to be going backwards slightly, don't we, on this whole issue.
03:22:36
Speaker
i thought we'd have got over that. I thought we all understood now that people are born gay and people are born transgender. It's not a choice. I thought we'd all agreed on that. But lately we're becoming confused by the whole subject once again. I prefer a more tolerant society.
03:22:49
Speaker
I did not look into what the whole interview was about past this quote, so I guess I can't really contextualize it. i'm i i it is kind of ambiguous in some ways. i don't know if he's trying to say, like, I'm becoming more tolerant and like open-minded. I'm going to hope that that's along the lines of it, of just, like, let's do away with persecuting people. Let's do away with like being too rigid about things.
03:23:16
Speaker
So... I guess in some ways that's optimistic. Yeah. And I think that it's true either way that he prefers a more tolerant society. I don't think that any of his point is that like we should be dismissive of trans people. I think he is being dismissive of trans people.
03:23:35
Speaker
But it's like this weird, messy thing where I also don't think that he thinks they deserve disrespect or lack of safety or lack of health care. Like, I think he just thinks they deserve to have access to whatever they want and need to be happy and healthy and safe.
03:23:48
Speaker
So it's weird. It's like a weird thing. But there's no, like, there's no clean and, like, neat way to tie a bow on Richard O'Brien. He's a really complicated figure.
03:24:00
Speaker
and I hope, like you said, that he's becoming more open-minded. And I hope that for... what he says publicly and I hope that for his internal world and his own like sanity and his own ability to connect with himself which is like what queerness is about more than anything else on some levels right we can talk about community we can talk about romantic relationships but at the end of the day queerness starts and ends with us like ourselves how we understand ourselves how open we are to who
03:24:33
Speaker
we are now and who we might grow into and all of these things and so I want that for him and I'm not asking anyone else to do that like I think if you are incredibly frustrated by the things he says like I said you are right like you are correct to be frustrated you are correct to think he's transphobic but I wish peace for him well because also like when like someone is trying to heal themselves and be at peace with themselves, inevitably they'll treat everyone else better. Like no happy, content, fulfilled, healed person is mad at trans people. Like that's just not a, that's my opinion. Like, you right. You can't be a bigot and be a perfectly,
03:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, like you can't be perfectly at peace. Like well-adjusted person. Yeah, well-adjusted person. Like that's not possible because that's not human nature. Human nature is not bigotry. So it's at odds. So wishing him healing and peace for himself is actually just going to make the world a better place in that way.
03:25:44
Speaker
I totally agree. And... That's also like my own kind of love letter to him to say thank you for giving me this thing that has been such a big part of my life and has given me a lot of peace.
03:25:56
Speaker
And yeah, just like wanting him to get some of that back. So all that being said about the complex figure that is Richard O'Brien, clearly we both love this movie.
03:26:08
Speaker
Clearly it means a lot to both of us. And I want to end the episode with a quote from Absolute Pleasure by Roxy Ruedas, who says, anyone has what it takes to be a Rocky Horror fan.
03:26:21
Speaker
There's no right way to exist as a fan in the Rocky Horror community. Your level of involvement and participation in the culture have no bearing on being a true fan. There isn't a set number of callbacks that people need to know or a specific way you have to dress.
03:26:37
Speaker
You don't even have to know older fans if you're too shy. Your experience is what you make of it. There's a place for anyone to become a devoted member of the Rocky Horror community know because there is so much that still resonates with people about this film 50 years later.
03:26:54
Speaker
And if you are one of the people it resonates with, then you belong here. I have tears in my eyes. I mean, that's what anyone can hope from art and from being a human and connecting with other people and watching something and having that galaxy brain moment of like your eyes widening and you're like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. Like, I'm sad that I can't remember that moment for myself, like the first moment of watching this. But um in an interesting way, I have it every time I watch this movie like even the other day just watching it on my laptop like taking notes it's not the most cinematic experience but I was dancing I was like just connecting with it every time I watch it and it's so true and I think that's again the beautiful part of the queer community but also and also musicals okay lest we forget there's a big that's a that's a tight Venn diagram yeah Yeah.
03:27:49
Speaker
It's not quite a circle, but it's it's it's it's pretty tight in there. Like, this could not have been a play. You know what I mean? This was destined to be a musical. Absolutely. Absolutely.
03:28:00
Speaker
Well, i I just want to say, like, thank you for talking to me about this for literally three hours. I feel like we couldn't we could probably do this 10 more times and still not run out of things to say. But this has been such a meaningful. I feel like all of our conversations have been such a delight. And I think they just keep getting they like just keep getting better. And I'm I'm so grateful for I think your vulnerability as well, because I think that particularly.
03:28:29
Speaker
for this one. i actually think when when I came on and we did Russian Doll, I think that was similar more than I think Phantom of the Opera was. i just appreciate your vulnerability and willingness to have a really personal conversation about this piece of art because it's impossible to talk about Rocky Horror without it being personal.
03:28:52
Speaker
if you really like love it and and and it might only be personal to the extent that it makes you really happy and whatever but like it's it's a vulnerable conversation kind of in and of itself just because of what it's about so just like thank you for showing up for that and like going on this journey with me and I just really appreciate it You are so kind. The absolute pleasure is mine.
03:29:18
Speaker
yeah I feel so honored, truly so honored that that you would ask me to talk about this movie with you. i didn't realize how much of a history you had.
03:29:29
Speaker
asked if we could cover this? um And I'm so happy to have discovered that and to share this with you. i mean, everything you just said is like right back at you. Like this is, i could like, I,
03:29:43
Speaker
I like when you're like, oh, for three hours, I'm like, oh, wait, but like, do you have another three? because i think i Not today, but like we could we could find another. yeah I still need to bring you back for like an actual horror movie. It's still on my agenda.
03:29:58
Speaker
But I wanted to do this for Halloween. And obviously there was there was no one else. There was no I mean, i could have asked a lot of people and I think a lot of people would have been like, great like great and fine it's not like I have no plenty of people who like it but I yeah I mean I knew ah between the musical element I just knew i just knew that you had to be oh my god that means that means so much to me wow you know that it's the best compliment I could ever receive and yeah I think there is just as like a last aside I think there is something about musicals that does
03:30:34
Speaker
require a certain level of vulnerability. I know Russian Doll wasn't a musical. Could be. But um like there there is a that earnestness that has to be there.
03:30:47
Speaker
Even with something as over the top as Rocky Horror, that always has a vulnerability underneath it. And so I don't know how to approach musicals without being a little bit sappy or without being personal about it because that's what it requires when you watch them.
03:31:02
Speaker
Yeah. And I think the answer to how you do that is don't. There you go.
03:31:29
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode of What Haunts You, a podcast about the stories that haunt our dreams. Find us on Instagram at whathauntsupod and find all of our episodes on YouTube and Spotify.
03:31:40
Speaker
Thanks again to Caitlin for joining me for this absolute pleasure of a conversation. if you haven't checked out Caitlin's podcast, it's called Watched It and it is a TV show podcast. They are on a break right now, but they have a really great backlog to check out.
03:31:54
Speaker
I was on there to talk about the Netflix show Russian Doll, but they have so many TV show discussions to check out. There is almost certainly something in there for you. I'll link all of that information in the show notes and on Instagram.
03:32:06
Speaker
Next episode, we will be getting back into 80s horror. But for now, I hope you all have an excellent Halloween. Watch some good movies, have yourself a good scare, and obviously plenty of treats.
03:32:18
Speaker
See you in the next one.