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The Phantom of the Opera (2004)
15 Plays5 months ago
The phantom of the opera is ALWAYS there inside our minds, and we are ready to talk about it. This week we are joined by Caitlin from Watched It! to talk about one of her favorite movie musicals with a hint of horror, 2004’s The Phantom of the Opera. We talk about the various themes of the movie, the differences between the musical and the 1925 silent film and hear about Caitlin’s first silent film experience, and reflect on how even though Gerard Butler’s voice is just okay, he makes a pretty damn good phantom.
Episodes available on YouTube or Spotify!
Check out Caitlin's podcast, Watched It! here
Intro Music: Body in the trunk by Victor_Natas -- https://freesound.org/s/717975/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
Outro Music: drum loop x5 by theoctopus559 -- https://freesound.org/s/622897/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
My mom or sister or both of them came into my room one night and were like, hey, Caitlin, maybe like give the DVD a break. like Maybe don't ruin the DVDs.
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to What Haunts You, a podcast about the stories that haunt our dreams. You can find our episodes on Spotify and YouTube or find us on Instagram at whathauntsyoupod. I'm your host, Carly, and today i am here with my friend, Caitlin. So welcome, Caitlin. Do you want to tell tell everybody a little about yourself?
Caitlin's Podcast and Horror Genre Discussion
00:00:54
Speaker
Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. i am. Yeah, i also have a podcast. So we are podcast twins kind of.
00:01:05
Speaker
It's called Watched It and it's a TV podcast that I do with my friend Jackie. And you have been on this podcast just a couple months ago. we covered Russian Doll together and it's genuinely one of my favorite discussions that I've ever had on the podcast. So thank you again for that.
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah, that was really, I mean, that was on your podcast, but in podcasting, that was one of my favorite conversations that I've had too. I definitely recommend everyone go check it out. I also highly recommend the Good Place episode. I really did like, like, I think that's my favorite one that I've listened to and I obviously love that show.
00:01:42
Speaker
And then some of your Black Mirror ones were really interesting too. And obviously any of the episodes, but those are the ones that stand out to me. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, those are huge standouts for me too. The Good Place was like,
00:01:54
Speaker
mind-blowing a discussion that I had with my friend Zoe so yeah doing the podcast has been super super fun and I've been listening to yours um I will say already that I don't watch as much horror a lot of people do but I do really enjoy a lot of the episodes you put out so I'm just really happy to be here Yeah. So what will, with that being said, do you want to talk a little bit about like your relationship to the genre and maybe you can even say some things that you've liked from it. And then like some of the things that are not as, not as much for you.
00:02:28
Speaker
For sure. Yeah. So I don't really watch any horror per se I've like growing up. um I think my first experience with a horror movie was probably like the village at like a friend's birthday party when i was like 10 and that just scarred me and i just never wanted to experience those emotions ever again so I just yeah it didn didn't seem like the genre for me but what I've always found interesting is that I'm always really, really interested in like the stories. Like um what comes to mind for me a lot is Midsommar. Like I'm so I've read the synopsis like five times because I just think it's so fascinating, but I cannot bring myself to watch it
00:03:14
Speaker
um I'm just so scared of like the mental images that will stay with me. And so um I tend to err on the side of caution for that. But but I'm fascinated by a lot of horror movie like storylines and themes that get explored. I think it's such a rich genre and it's just like, I just can't do it with my eyes.
00:03:37
Speaker
And I think that's very valid. i i for a long time when I was younger, i did I actually would like read the synopsis of like every scary movie that I heard of. And I i couldn't watch. I don't really even know what happened to me that switched it. But i I do understand that feeling of like wanting to take in the stories, but just like knowing that it would be a little too much if you really watched it Yeah, for sure.
The Phantom of the Opera Discussion Begins
00:04:01
Speaker
So I've branched out a bit over the years. Like when I watched Get Out, that definitely felt like a leap for me um yeah and that kind of genre, like thriller, horror genre. So I'm not completely opposed, but it's i have to like consider the pros and cons for my brain.
00:04:22
Speaker
Yes, fair. Not worth the nervous system stress necessarily. yeah So when we talked about you coming on What Haunts You, we talked about some actual horror. We talked about some horror movies in the traditional sense.
00:04:35
Speaker
And I would for sure like to revisit some of those ideas. but But you asked me if I would be interested and covering the Phantom of the Opera movie musical. Yeah.
00:04:48
Speaker
And I just did not feel like I could pass that up, to be honest. I was like, I thought that if i was like, let's come back to that and do one of these horror movies in a more traditional sense, I was worried we wouldn't come back to it. And i loved the idea so much that I didn't want to i didn't want to lose it.
00:05:07
Speaker
And I had, you know, in the um episode i did covering twenty s and 30s movies, I had covered the silent film. So I also had said, like, what if we watch them both? Well, focus more on the musical, but just to also kind of give you a taste of, I think also ah horror movie that is probably feels safer to watch. I think the silent films tend to be less scary because of effect limitations, budget limitations, technology limitations, and just style.
00:05:35
Speaker
So I thought that it would probably be, you know, manageable without, without trauma. I don't want to traumatize you for the sake of the podcast, um but I thought that would be a fun kind of like like like experience for us to have talking about the two of them.
00:05:48
Speaker
Oh yeah, I mean, I'm trying to like play it cool right now, but like this is probably one of the best days of my life. Like this is a dream come true. i This is one of favorite musicals of all time.
00:06:01
Speaker
And i i be like, yeah, I pitched it to you and i was like, you know, the word Phantom is in the title. That's got to count for something, right? And so I didn't, I would have been fine if you said no. Like I was expecting like, eh, I don't know.
00:06:14
Speaker
And you were like, yeah, let's do it. And I was like, oh my God, dream come true. This is amazing. So the fact that I can talk about this movie for more than like two minutes without annoying the person in front of me is just the best. So thank you.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i'm I'm very excited too. And I, One of my whole kind of things, I think, with horror is that like horror has its tentacles in so many things. And so this is very much like a romance, like a like horror-esque romance story. And I do I yeah, just feel like horror has its tentacles in everything. And that's why my my thesis is kind of that everyone likes some of horror. mean, like you might not like to be scared. I think like a lot of people don't like to be scared, which is valid because for a lot of people, that's an unpleasant sensation.
00:07:03
Speaker
um But I do think a lot of people like components of horror and don't really, I think you're open to that idea more than some people are. But I think a lot of people don't realize that it has its, it has its like little fingers in every pot.
00:07:16
Speaker
Absolutely. and And I felt that for sure, like with the movie from the 20s, like yeah I did find it somewhat scary, not like I didn't have nightmares or anything, which else kind of surprised about. But it did feel like a horror movie and it's, but it's more about I think like broader themes and like societal things where we're like, like, who do we um pitch as a monster? i think that's what makes this story of the Phantom of the Opera so fascinating.
00:07:44
Speaker
Cause you're right. Like the, the movie and then the musical, the tone is amazing. quite different. um But that those elements of of someone is scaring you or haunting you are still there. So that's cool.
00:07:56
Speaker
Absolutely. And so the the Phantom of the Opera started its started its journey, which there have been so many iterations and so many versions of this story, but it started its life as a book. I'm going to have you say the author's name because you will say it right.
00:08:12
Speaker
It is Gaston Leroux. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it Like Gaston from you Being the Beast. I felt confident about the first name, but I didn't feel confident about it. I think I would have said it not like totally butchered, but I would i wouldn't have gotten an actual like accent pronunciation down.
00:08:31
Speaker
But yeah, so it started as a book and watching both of these movies made me pick up the book. So I am now reading the book, but I'm not done with it. But it is it's good so far. And I mean, you did a little bit of like research into the book. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you found? Mm-hmm.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So what I thought was really interesting was that it was the story was first published in newspapers as like a serial story, essentially. And then it might have even been years after he finished that, that he made it into a book, or maybe it wasn't quite so long a time, but it was in newspapers first.
00:09:06
Speaker
um And the author had this fascination with Edgar Allan Poe and Arthur Conan Doyle. And I think like Having read that, that he was interested in those authors, like it completely makes sense when you then watch the movie or I presume read the book or watch the musical.
00:09:24
Speaker
So I thought those were really interesting aspects of like the behind the scenes of the book. Yeah, for sure. And I think in both the movie and the musical, and I imagine in the book, but I haven't gotten this far in the book, there is like a serious homage to Mask of the Red Death.
00:09:40
Speaker
um In this, like in the ball scene, in the masquerade scene, when the Phantom does show up like clad in red with kind of a death mask looking situation.
00:09:52
Speaker
And so I remember thinking that when I saw it the first time, but I didn't know that that might've been like, I assumed that that was either deliberate or like worked its way in unconsciously, but it definitely didn't strike me as a surprise that he's interested in Edgar Allen Poe. I haven't read anything by Arthur Conan Doyle. Like I know the basics that like is in pop culture, but that's all I know. But I feel like you can see so much Poe in this not even like so in any specific iteration of the story but in like the actual type of story that it is and I love that I just love that yeah I do too I've read a little bit of Poe and I love his style i think taking those inspirations like Gastonau who taking inspirations from those authors in particular like is probably what made it so popular
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because those are two really, really popular writers who are... I think like very considered very groundbreaking in their respective genres. But so, like I said, I started reading the book. I'm not done with the book.
00:10:56
Speaker
But something that I do want to talk about from the book that I have already read is about the prologue. So the prologue does what I would say is in epistolary novels or sometimes in other other forms of literature, but also very commonly in horror movies,
00:11:16
Speaker
has a section that is designed to make you suspend reality and really believe that this is a real story that's being told. And so the prologue is titled Prologue, in which the author of this singular work informs the reader how he acquired the certainty that the opera ghost really existed, which is...
00:11:38
Speaker
quite quite a title for a prologue on its face, but it presents this story of how this came to be. And so first he's saying it seemed to all be rumors and there wasn't any verification.
00:11:52
Speaker
And then it talks about how the author gained access to correspondence between Christine and I'm not sure if it was the Phantom or just other people, but so some sort of correspondence that corroborates pieces of the story and then also obtained unrelated letters from Christine to compare them to in content, in like structure and in handwriting. Like, so there's this whole kind of like case presentation that is implemented to really sell
00:12:26
Speaker
the story that's being told and to really put you in the mind space of like, no, this is a real thing that happened, which i like, I love that as like a device, as like a literary or movie device.
00:12:36
Speaker
And I was surprised to see it here. That is so fun. And I guess that's the Arthur Conan Doyle influence probably right of like the Sherlock Holmes of it all. um I think that's actually really interesting as well. And I'm, I guess in movie or musical form,
00:12:53
Speaker
Maybe that's not quite as apparent or that might be harder to transfer from the novel. But I think that spirit is still there, like some kind of recounting that that happens in basically all of these iterations.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, like there's a wraparound something. There's all there's like some sort of kind of container that it gets put in to make it feel more, more real, more true. So the 1925 movie, the silent film, Phantom of the Opera, i would love to, like, before we even get into specific notes, I just would love to hear what you thought of it, what your experience was like of watching it and like how it how you responded to it.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah. So i committed somewhat of a crime. I just watched it on my computer. I could have put it on my TV screen and made it like a grander experience, but I... didn't.
00:13:46
Speaker
um But the first thing that I thought about was that the aspect ratio is really cool. And I'm not like a film expert or anything like that. I don't even know what the numbers of that ratio are, but it's more like almost like a vertical size.
00:14:00
Speaker
um And I'm sure I imagined that had to do with the the physicality of like film at the time and all of that stuff. But I just thought that was interesting. I think it's, it's just so rare to have that to see that nowadays. So that was my first thing. And I think this might have been the first silent film I've ever watched.
00:14:18
Speaker
I'm like trying to think, but I really don't think I'd seen one before. yeah You know, going through life, you see clips or you see kind of like um caricatures of that in modern movies or TV shows. So of course I've seen like what that's supposed to look like, but it was just really interesting to see it for real.
00:14:38
Speaker
I think it's, it was just a really beautiful movie. And, and like I said earlier, like it was kind of like scary, especially towards the end. don't know how much we want to talk about, you know, the things that happened yet, but just like the whole end part of the movie and the things that happened then were like pretty, pretty intense.
00:14:55
Speaker
um I was very curious about how they would what, like what the Phantom's facial difference would be exactly. so that was an interesting, it was just an interesting, I guess, reveal or I was just, yeah, curious about that as the movie was going. So that was also interesting.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And there are a lot of movies that existed as silent films and then became like whatever, talkies, like we just call them movies, right? But like the trend the transition term was talkies.
00:15:27
Speaker
And i think there's an added layer of like depth of just being interesting that this was a silent I mean it was a a lot of things it wasn't just these two things but that we have a silent film version of it and then a musical version of it those seem so like opposed in some way but also I do feel like there are a lot of differences there are a lot of plot differences there are a lot of difference in what what stuff gets emphasized right like even where the plots are the same there's like
00:15:59
Speaker
like certain things are given more time and more room to breathe in each one. But you can see like the DNA of the silent film in the musical for sure, which I think is really, really fascinating too.
00:16:12
Speaker
Absolutely. In fact, the the music must have been a direct inspiration for Andrew Lloyd Webber, who wrote the music for the musical. um And that's something I definitely was excited to think about as I started watching the silent film.
00:16:27
Speaker
And you hear it basically from the beginning. So not only... is the organ playing the essentially the theme of the movie, which he keeps as an instrument for the musical.
00:16:38
Speaker
But um in this theme that comes up a few times in the movie, you get this downwards chromatic thing, which is the exact, basically the exact little like phrase that is used in the infamous Phantom of the Opera title song and and and all of that. So immediately when I heard that little descending thing, i was like, well, yeah, of course he took that from this movie in a good way. It's not like considered stealing or anything like it's that makes complete sense that he I'm assuming would have had inspiration from this movie.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I felt ah kind of like how you were talking about the aspect ratio and being like, I don't really know how to verbalize this exactly, but it was interesting. That's how I felt about the overlap between the music. So I love that you were able to kind of explain it a little bit a little bit better than I could have, because there're that you you can hear it. You you really can hear it.
00:17:29
Speaker
The music is beautiful. I mean, the score is really, really good. it's It's really emotive. It's very intense. And like at parts really gets your heart rate. ah Like I think the music does a good job of you know, when we watch movies today, there is often like a combination of music and just sound design.
00:17:52
Speaker
and in silent films, it's much more just like me. It's much more just about music. And I feel like the music does such a, such a shockingly good job of achieving what usually is now done with sound design in really setting the tone in getting under your skin at different times and really kind of communicating what is the emotional state of the room?
00:18:14
Speaker
Like what is the emotional state of the scene that we're watching and the people in it? And I just thought it did it beautifully. Absolutely. And I didn't even consider that you're so right about sound design and sound de effects. i didn't notice that's kind of missing or just not a thing in the silent movie.
00:18:31
Speaker
And like, I think the movie could have worked with more maybe stereotypical old school horror movie music. But like you said, it's it's actually very intricate. It's actually extremely beautifully composed and thought about.
00:18:47
Speaker
So I love that a lot of the elements were kept for the musical. Yeah, for sure. And I think that the score is so important because it is at least to some extent about music, right? Like it's it's music as a way of exploring art and creativity and I think love and lust and all of these different things, right? But it does kind of come down to music. So I think that They did the story justice by creating such a good such a good score for it.
00:19:15
Speaker
So one of the big differences that I want to kind of talk about and between the movie and the silent movie and the musical is the treatment of Christine as a character or like kind of as a non-character in the silent film, which I think is not uncommon for older movies but like the just just the differences in how much time we spend with her and and the shift from kind of a like more of a third person perspective I think in the silent film where there's kind of not not a clear main character like she is the main character but it's it's a little bit ambiguous that she's the main character and I think
00:19:52
Speaker
in the musical, it does feel like we are following her around. Even when we're seeing other stuff that's happening with other people, it feels like the story is revolving around her in a way that the silent movie kind of misses a little bit.
00:20:05
Speaker
I agree with that. Yeah. And I mean, my experience in my life was is heavily more about the musical, of course, but I know that it's like considered a dream role for so many people who are in musical theater. It's like one of those big female roles that so many people want to play.
00:20:24
Speaker
I think a lot of it has to do with the beautiful music, but, you know, she is such a central figure in the musical. And I agree that in the film, I think we don't even see her like very early on at all.
00:20:38
Speaker
um ah So it's, that's an interesting comparison. I think in both cases, ah she's that kind of typical ingenue, character a new role which she's also is in the story funny enough where especially in the movie but in the musical too like she's often like doesn't really know what to do or she wants Raul or whoever to save her and we get a lot of that kind of language with Christine's character so I find that aspect interesting to analyze where I think
00:21:14
Speaker
I think physically, like so many people, i can understand why they want to play this role and and what it can bring to them, especially musically. But I, you know, the musical was made in the 80s. At this point, you can see what has become dated. And I think it is that aspect of this female main character who's like, what shall I do? You know, like,
00:21:36
Speaker
It always makes me think of ah the I don't know where she gave this speech, but there's like that Reese Witherspoon speech where she's talking about how like every female character in every movie of every genre has a moment where they look at a man and say, what are we going to do?
00:21:51
Speaker
And like that is not how women behave. A hundred percent. Yeah. And so it does have that kind of energy. um But I also think it's kind of interesting because while she is less fleshed out in the silent film and while she is less dynamic of a character, she's also a lot less.
00:22:12
Speaker
How do I say this? She also doesn't seem to be having quite the same level of focus on the men. There is a focus on the men, but it does seem like her career is maybe more important in the silent film than in the musical, which is a little surprising to me because it does set up this sort of like love triangle situation.
00:22:36
Speaker
But ultimately, it feels like she is choosing the opera by way of the phantom rather than choosing the phantom by way of opera. I love that dichotomy. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's interesting because, I mean, you think about the idea of like the Bechdel test, which obviously these these neither of these pass, but... i didn't even think to think of that test. Right. I'm sure my subconscious was like absolute fail from the get-go. There's literally no point because if it's not one of the men, then it's like about her dead father, right? Like it's it's very, it's kind of like the most typical version of that.
00:23:11
Speaker
But... It is interesting, right, that like we see kind of movie progress in the context of like how much of their life revolves around the men in their life. And it is interesting to me that in this older version of the movie, it does seem less about romance and less about those interpersonal elements.
00:23:30
Speaker
Yeah, that is that is very true. There's a line that the Phantom tells Christine in the movie. He says, you must forget all worldly things and think only of your career career and your master. um And even earlier in the in the movie, when she's talking to Raoul, she tells him, like, you have to forget about our love. Like, I'm going focus on the opera.
00:23:54
Speaker
we i don't think we get that. we We don't really get that in the musical. You're you're right. But what this really reminded me of, especially when the Phantom tells Christine that line, ah it reminds me of the film The Red Shoes, which I'm assuming you've seen.
00:24:08
Speaker
I actually haven't seen it. So can you and and you can weigh and you can spoil things. So I guess spoiler alert for that. But like you can spoil things if you need to spoil things. I love looking at the way films influence each other. So like I would love to hear what you noticed about that.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah. Well, i'm I can't remember the year that this movie came out, but certainly came out like later than The Phantom of the Opera. But it's kind of similar, actually. um You have this central female character who's a ballerina instead of a singer.
00:24:39
Speaker
And she has this, the person who runs the ballet company, who's this very impending figure I don't know if that's the right word but he's very like imposing and he's upset at the beginning of the movie when the prima ballerina wants to or is getting married and it's like completely assumed that that means she will not be dancing anymore like even I was confused for a sec because I was like wait what's the issue but he in that time period I think maybe it was from the 40s or 50s yeah it was just kind of what happened so with the main character she takes over that prima donna or
00:25:11
Speaker
prima ballerina role, but has a love interest come in eventually. And then it does again become this struggle of staying in the ballet or going and building a life with this love interest.
00:25:26
Speaker
I'll spoil it enough to say that it does not end well at all. But yeah, but the ballet owner, it really reminded me of the Phantom in the sense of like, he's demanding this absolute dedication to the craft. It's not quite as, um let's say,
00:25:42
Speaker
romantically inclined in the red shoes than than it is in the in the Phantom of the Opera. i think the Phantom is really, deft like, canonically in love with Christine. But yeah, it just struck me that there's a lot of similarities there.
00:25:53
Speaker
That's really interesting. And I think it's like a theme that still gets explored today, right? Of like, can't can women have it all, right? Like, it's like, how are we still having this conversation so long later, right? Because it is, it's like...
00:26:06
Speaker
It's like, can she love Raul and have her life with Raul and like still be an opera singer? And like and maybe the answer is no, if she stays at this opera house where the Phantom is like stalking her. Right. But it is funny when I was watching. I think I had this thought more during the musical, but there was a moment during the musical where I was like, what if you guys just like moved to another city and you sang opera elsewhere?
00:26:29
Speaker
didn't even think of that. Right. Like there is a seat like there's a secret third option. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Get away from the haunted opera. Yeah. But I do think that that is part of it, right? i think i I think we could talk about this more, I think, like once we get into the plot of the musical, but I do think there is some element of the addiction of toxic love in here, right? Of like her kind of wanting to be rid of it, but not wanting to be rid of it at the same time. So I think there's like a whole complicated mess of why that doesn't happen, but it is funny that like that's not touched as an option, right? It's just... it's just
00:27:03
Speaker
it feels very much like choosing between these only two possible things when there's kind of a whole world of other ways to go. yeah And I think that's probably why i would assume you cannot set this story in like the modern day. I just don't think it would really work for a lot of reasons, but I think that's a big one.
00:27:22
Speaker
I don't think you can have this story be exploring the idea of career versus love. Like it's, It's a very different world now. So I think it makes sense to set it further back in time.
00:27:37
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I think that the the story itself evolves, but I think it is it is kind of crucial that it takes place when it does. I'm curious what you thought about the mask in this movie, because I find the mask in this movie quite scary. It's like really uncanny valley. I don't really find the Phantom particularly scary looking in the musical, but I do find him quite scary looking in the in the silent film. So I'm curious what you think about that.
00:28:05
Speaker
yeah that was one of the first things I noticed is that this mask covers the top half of his face rather than the side of his face, which is like the very famous iconography of the musical. You can just see a white half face vertical mask and you know that's meant to represent the Phantom of the Opera.
00:28:22
Speaker
um So that's already a very interesting difference. it's the now It's like a horizontal mask. um I thought I found it like I'm curious about the choice to have like kind of like a bit of lace or something like a lace trimming at the bottom of the mask, I guess maybe to cover his mouth, but to let it like breathe a bit So I don't know if that's normal of how masks like were in the 1920s or if this was purely stylistic choice for the movie.
00:28:50
Speaker
But then either way, that's that was fascinating. And I agree that in terms of the Phantom's actual face. I think we are meant to see it as much more scary in the silent film.
00:29:02
Speaker
ah in the musical, like, you see his face a couple times before his mask is off for, like, the last, I don't know, quarter of the movie. I'm, like, the more I watch this movie and get older and watch it, and I'm, like, looking at him in the first half, I'm, like, I'm really supposed to find this, like, quote-unquote deformed? Like, what are we talking about?
00:29:23
Speaker
Like, we'll get, I'm sure we'll get into, like, that and, like, the ableism around that, but... yeah In the silent movie, it's much more of this idea that his face kind of looks like a skeleton in a way So i i I can see how that really lended itself to the horror the pure horror of that movie.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I have a similar reaction to the musical. i I actually hadn't seen it since I was a child, which was also part of why I was really excited to talk about it because I i almost forgot about it. And then you said it and I was like, oh, man, I cannot wait to rewatch this.
00:30:00
Speaker
And i remember being scared when I was like little, like I was quite little when I saw it. And I think when you're little, you're scared of anyone who looks different that like that's just like kind of how kids are. And then you like learn what happened and then it's like not scary or like why someone looks that way. And then it stops being scary.
00:30:15
Speaker
and So it was interesting to watch it because I did have that reaction of like, oh, that that's it, huh? You're like a little burned. Yeah, because in the musical, you see the, because it's like a vertical mask, you see his profile the whole time. And it's Gerard Butler, like not a bad looking guy by like Hollywood standards. And he has this like slick back, you know, black hair.
00:30:40
Speaker
And you see like how handsome he's supposed to look to us for so much of the movie. But whereas in the silent film, I think the fact that you don't see a profile, you just see like a chin essentially with the mask on.
00:30:53
Speaker
That, I think, is a more effective use of like a face covering, which then has this reveal of, God, I can't imagine. I wish we can tally how many ways they call this man ugly. It's ah deplorable. It's so bad.
00:31:08
Speaker
um But there's just so many words that are used to describe this character of the Phantom. But yeah, I think the mask in the silent film is way more believable and like scary in a sense.
00:31:19
Speaker
i I definitely think so, too. And I think it's more of a reveal and it's more unsettling. And I think I think also it sells the idea of the music more, which is funny because we never hear him sing in the silent film.
00:31:32
Speaker
But it's like you got this like suave looking man How much does his voice matter? Also, i have to get this. I just have to like say this and be done with this. But like Gerard Butler is not very good. Like he's he's like not a very good singer.
00:31:47
Speaker
He's not a very good singer. He's good in the role. Like his acting is good. And like it was good enough that I like enjoyed the movie. I wasn't like it didn't take me out of the movie, but everyone else is so good.
00:31:58
Speaker
And he's so OK. i That is so valid. i totally understand where you' are coming from. The thing is that I've been like Phantom of the Opera pilled since like high school. So I can't think of it as other anything other than fantastic.
00:32:14
Speaker
Like i'm i'm I'm delusional about this movie because everyone roasts it. Like everyone roasts it. And I completely understand. Like I don't, I see it in that sense of like, I get why someone else would see it that way. And yes, his singing is,
00:32:30
Speaker
The thing that's like crazy is that this role in musical theater, again, not an expert, but my sister is a singer, grew up in musical theater. I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge mega fan.
00:32:42
Speaker
um This role is one of the fucking hardest male roles to sing from my little knowledge. Like I, it is really quite wild that they,
00:32:56
Speaker
cast someone who's not singer by nature. And I think, thank God that his acting and like acting through song, you would call it like, um i think makes up enough for it And he does kind of do like a ah Talk singing, speech singing type of thing to get out some of these notes.
00:33:17
Speaker
But it's it's just it's just wild to me. that's a That was a huge risk for them because this is genuinely one of the hardest scores for men to sing.
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's very interesting because I think he had like no musical background. I don't think he had ever had a singing role or even thought of having a singing role. And i yeah, like I said, I don't want to spend like a ton of time on it, but I do. I do just have to say it ah just acknowledging it.
00:33:44
Speaker
And I still liked the movie and I do still like him in the movie. But it's just it's just interesting. It's a little interesting. Yeah, because and and I find it also interesting, like Patrick Wilson actually has a beautiful voice.
00:33:57
Speaker
I don't think Raul has quite so hard of a ah singing role as the Phantom does. But um like, that makes sense to me. Like, he does have a background in singing.
00:34:07
Speaker
And I don't think he was that well known at the time. Like, I can't, um I mean, it's not like Patrick Wilson was like a household name. I don't think at in the year 2004 so ah it's weird that they cast him who is maybe lesser known but has a great voice and then Gerard Butler but like I think with what he was basically working with like I'm astounded that he made it through that whole movie like singing that whole thing of course pre-recorded but it is quite a feat but I totally yeah I acknowledge it is not
00:34:42
Speaker
he would not have been you know hired for Broadway. Yes. And they do. And and i I agree with you that it is actually impressive that he's able to pull it. Because I do feel like they pull it off. Like I said, i doesn't like take you out of the movie. It's not like you're, it's not like nails it. It's not like he sounds bad. It's just like he sounds like someone who's just like singing in their house, but he's surrounded by people with beautiful voices, which makes him seem even like less talented, I think.
00:35:08
Speaker
yeah But he's still he still really sells the role. I agree. I guess there's like two other big differences that I noticed for the silent film. And one is that there isn't the inspector and inspector Ledoux, who in the silent film is kind of cracking the case.
00:35:28
Speaker
Like they find out that he's been like studying the Phantom and like trying to track him for kind of a while. So he's the one who's revealing the backstory and like giving the information. And that is get that role is kind of someone else's in the.
00:35:42
Speaker
musical And then the backstory is also like entirely different. So do you want to talk a little bit about like what what his background is in the silent film? Yeah, it's very interesting and specific.
00:35:55
Speaker
And I think we both have like are going piece together what to make of it. But yeah, so this Inspector Ledoux is interesting. Like you said, he's not in the musical. And we find out that, so the Phantom is actually called Eric with a K, which I think is like more chic. I like it.
00:36:10
Speaker
um And basically it's revealed in the silent film that he was born during the Boulevard Massacre, which I don't know if if that's a real thing. I tried looking it up. um Yeah, I don't think that was like necessarily a real event, but some kind of violent massacre, clearly. He's a self-educated musician and master of Black art. Black art is in like capital letters.
00:36:33
Speaker
He was then exiled to Devil's Island for the criminal insane. He escaped, and at the time of like reading this card with all this information, it says he's now at large. and So the inspector, of course, is trying to capture him.
00:36:49
Speaker
In terms of Devil's Island, that was a real thing or a real place. It was a French penal colony ah for 100 years in the 1850s to 1950s in the Salvation Islands of French Guyana, I think would be how you pronounce it.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. um And yeah, i I looked into that a little bit when I was covering the silent film for the other episode. And it was not good. I mean, obviously, any penal colony island would have been really bad. But the sanitation was like substandard even for the time, which was obviously already substandard as we would think of it today.
00:37:29
Speaker
Most people died of disease who went there, like more like the majority of people died of disease. And most people never made it back to France because they it was like criminalized for them to go back to France usually. And then like most ah most people just ended up dying on the island.
00:37:44
Speaker
But you were given like a double sentence where you would have your time on the island as ah prisoner. And then you would have your time on the island as staff, which is very strange. And being somewhere where there are all of the, a lot of like, um Bug related diseases, you know, like diseases transmitted by the bugs of the area.
00:38:03
Speaker
The longer you're there, you know, the more likely you are to come across one of those illnesses. So it really kind of like set people up to just go there and go there to die, essentially. So it was a very rough place. Most people didn't make it back.
00:38:16
Speaker
There are a few documented escapes from the island, but some of the accounts are likely inaccurate or just like falsified altogether. um It seems like some of them are probably true, but probably not all of them.
00:38:29
Speaker
So you you have to imagine it was like a feat for him to get back to France from there. And then also, i think that bolsters the hiding component of the phantom, right? It makes a little bit more...
00:38:43
Speaker
sense in a practical way that he would be hiding like in the in the bowels of the opera right because he is hiding from the inspector hiding from his sentence Yeah, that actually does make a lot of sense.
00:38:58
Speaker
Ledoux also mentions that the Phantom was confined to torture chambers during the Second Revolution. and so, and but that's like all he says, i think, is like torture chambers. And so he's, like you mentioned, like being on that island must have already been torture enough.
00:39:13
Speaker
And then seemingly maybe somewhere else. got tortured again. So his story in any iteration is very, very tragic, no matter how you spin it, you you have to feel empathy for that, for what his life was like, at least up until the story begins.
00:39:30
Speaker
But what I think is interesting to think about and reflect on is then like, how the silent film portrays him until the end of the movie. And I don't think we're meant to feel so bad for him.
00:39:42
Speaker
And then I don't know how to feel about that as like, on like a meta level, right? Like, why did the writers want us to probably root for his death? Yeah, and I think even with the level of tragedy embedded in his backstory, it's kind of like yada yada over in the movie. Like, right, we don't really spend much time with it. We don't see the phantom engage with the story even really. Like we hear it right from the inspector. So there's like a detachment there.
00:40:12
Speaker
So it's if you don't decide to think about it, it's easy to just be like, oh yeah, he's just like some bad dude who was like in jail, right? Like I think it's easy to gloss over.
00:40:24
Speaker
But if you think about it for more than two minutes, it like becomes very apparent that this is like a highly, heavily traumatized individual. Oh yeah, like absolutely.
00:40:36
Speaker
um There are some quotes that I found interesting that the Phantom says, I think both to Christine, but I can't remember. One of them is, if I am the phantom, it is because man's hatred has made me so, which I think in that respect, he's talking about probably his facial difference or maybe like what he was sent to the penal colony for or something like that.
00:40:58
Speaker
And then he also says, um i am human like other men. i will not be cheated of my happiness in the context of wanting to be with Christine and have love in his life, essentially.
00:41:11
Speaker
So acknowledging that he's been made into this quote unquote phantom, this this ghost, this monster, but he knows deep down, like, no, I'm i'm still a human being.
00:41:23
Speaker
I'm not acting very nice right now. I don't know if he acknowledges that, but he's not acting so nice to Christine. but But it's true, like he is still a human being, even though he's not being treated like that.
00:41:33
Speaker
And he, yes, deserves happiness, but of course, The way of going about it is maybe not the best. Yeah, he has big time nice guy syndrome, right?
00:41:46
Speaker
So true. He's like, I taught you music and you don't even love me. i never thought about it that way. And you...
00:41:58
Speaker
are so correct. Right. Like it's so it's, it's, it's like the template, um but it is, it is also sad though. I would like be so interested to see how they would make a remake of all of this today, whether it was musical or not, or like how, a whatever form, but I, you, you almost have to wonder, like, does he feel his own humanity slipping away and like his own kind of descent into monsterhood as he's living his life and like going through all of these experiences?
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. ah Can I say how the silent movie ends? Yes, we spoil. We spoil here.
00:42:35
Speaker
So in both iterations, there's some kind of manhunt at some point for the Phantom. But how the silent movie actually plays out in the end is they do. he kidnaps Christine. They leave the opera house.
00:42:47
Speaker
They're trying to run. He's trying to run away with her. ah The mob catches up, basically, and he's at you know, the edge of the Seine River and the mob is there, but he pretends that he has something in his hand because, because one you know, one of the things he's apparently known for is some kind of magic, which I think, again, is through like most of the iterations of this story.
00:43:07
Speaker
So he pretends he has something threatening in his hand, maybe, a I don't know, grenade or something or like a magic bomb. And so the mob kind of stops and is, you know, doesn't want to approach him. But then it's it's this really beautiful shot, actually, of him like opening his hand to reveal that there's nothing, in fact, inside, which is letting us as a viewer know that he knows what's about to happen to him. He's revealing like, yep, I have no tricks.
00:43:32
Speaker
I know you're about to kill me. I guess let's get the party started. And they beat him and then throw him in the in the river, presumably pretty much canonically to his death.
00:43:43
Speaker
but just for that iteration. So in the novel, pretty sure, and in the musical, he does not die, certainly not by the mob. And so I found that highly, highly interesting that the movie ends that way.
00:43:58
Speaker
The musical ends almost completely differently. So I was curious how you how you thought about that. but That's a huge difference, really. Yeah. And I kind of go back and forth on which I like better.
00:44:11
Speaker
um i i do. i think that what is true for both is that he hits a sacrifice point. where he understands that like he is going to have to just kind of give up.
00:44:23
Speaker
And it like looks different in the two versions, but it's, I think that's the through line. And I, I sort of in my mind, I'm like, well, maybe he lived, like maybe he got away. i don't know. um But I also think that at the time,
00:44:37
Speaker
he had to die. Like that was just how movies worked. You know what I mean? And so i wonder how much of it was really engaging with the story and like thinking about this change in like a larger artistic and creative way versus you have to kill your monsters.
00:44:53
Speaker
That's what people are there to see. And so i yeah, I'm curious how much of it was like really deliberate and intentional versus just kind of following the monster template and like you, you kill your monster at the end of your monster movie. Yeah.
00:45:06
Speaker
And then they like come back half the time, but you know, that is kind of the, that is kind of the way it goes. That, no, that makes sense to me, especially for the time it's the 1920s. Like if, yeah, if you're going to have a monster, you're going to make it like kind of a pure, not that nuanced monster. I think from just general knowledge, I think he probably is much more of a nuanced quote unquote evil character than a lot of other movies or horror movies, um, from the past, like film history. Um,
00:45:36
Speaker
But the musical does go quite a long way to give him even more nuance and even more complexity and to make him feel a bit more like a human being that's just gone down a path that's not advisable, but like is is definitely still relatable in many ways. But the silent film, you don't.
00:45:57
Speaker
you don't get that. Like you mentioned earlier, like the information we get about his backstory is just like, yeah, this is his backstory. All right, now let's go see what torture he's up to. And yeah, we don't really get any redemption from him. Like, and I don't think there's much change necessarily. ah Maybe when he um decides to save Raul and I forget who Raul's, yeah, who Raul's with in the film when they're like in the mirrors and the His brother, yeah His brother, right.
00:46:28
Speaker
um so ah but But again, that was for Christine. That's because Christine asked him to do that. So yeah, by the end of the the move the film, I don't and don't think we get that much complexity from him. i think I think you're right. I think it is probably like, he's a monster, we have to kill the monster.
00:46:47
Speaker
Should we get into the musical weeds now? We have to. And can I just say, i have to, can I explain like my backstory with the movie specifically? Please do. Yes.
00:46:58
Speaker
I don't know why I'm offering this information. It's actually unhinged. um But like I grew up in a household that like loves musical theater. So of course I'm sure as like an infant, I was hearing the music from this musical.
00:47:10
Speaker
But think the first time i actually watched the movie from 2004, I guess would have been like, ah I don't know. I was like, i was 10. So sometime after that, but there was ah point in my life when I was in the 11th grade, um for some inexplicable reason, other than being neurodivergent, I watched this movie every single day for about a month.
00:47:35
Speaker
Like every single day. I don't know how this movie is two and a half hours long. I don't know where I found the time in the middle of high school. Like this in in in Quebec, this is the last year of high school.
00:47:47
Speaker
um Literally don't know how I found the time, but I did it. ah Obsessed, it was like an understatement. And I remember distinctly, like, this was in the days of DVD. So this was on DVD.
00:47:58
Speaker
My mom or sister, or both of them came into my room one night and were like, hey, Caitlin. Um, maybe like give the DVD a break, like maybe don't ruin the DVD.
00:48:11
Speaker
I don't think that like they're probably like concerned for my mental health as well. But I think the concern was like, you're going to like wear out this physical piece of media. So maybe give it a break. Um, and then they did. And since then I've watched it like a plethora of times, but yeah, I've probably seen this movie like 40 times, I guess, at least.
00:48:30
Speaker
Yeah, I did that with um I did that with Hamilton when like the Disney streaming situation happened. So I definitely I definitely understand the feelings that you were probably having.
00:48:42
Speaker
And this is a total sidetrack. And I'm not going to go all the way down this rabbit hole. But I watched Hairspray last night, the movie for the first time in like, however long and I was so flooded with dopamine that I fear it's about to become a thing.
00:48:54
Speaker
The musical or like the original movie? The musical. actually haven't seen, should watch the original movie, but no, the musical. And I was watching with a friend who had never seen it. And I was like, oh no, I am overcome with good chemicals in my brain.
00:49:12
Speaker
So I'm going to have to wring those out until there's none left. Fully, fully understand. Hairspray is an incredible musical. I think it's also one of the best movie musicals. So i I endorse this. I'm sorry. i can't help I'm already like, I'll probably watch it again today. i i rented it. And as soon as we started it, I was like, I should have bought it. I should have just bought it. right i made um I made a mistake.
00:49:35
Speaker
This was a blunder.
00:49:38
Speaker
love that. Yeah, but okay. Anyway, back to, okay, Phantom of the Opera musical. So we open in Paris in 1919.
00:49:49
Speaker
And there's an auction happening. And there's an old man and an old woman there, who I don't know if we're supposed to understand at the very beginning who they are. I actually didn't until later, because I needed to like see them more times, I guess, as youth.
00:50:04
Speaker
But it's it ends up being Raul. And it so is it Madame Jiri or is it her daughter? I wasn't sure who it was supposed to be. Yeah, it seems like Miranda Richardson in like older makeup, which I think is pretty good makeup. But there's also like a filter over, the you know, in like it's not like the real cinematography. But um I didn't even consider that. But yeah, I think it would be Madame Jiri.
00:50:31
Speaker
Yeah, so it's the two of them and they're at this auction. This is also shot, um the filter is black and white. It it looks very, it doesn't just look like a modern film in black and white. It looks like splotchy and a little glitchy in the way that like very old movies look.
00:50:46
Speaker
um So I thought that was a nice touch. And they are at this auction that is taking place at the old opera house. It's run down. It's like it's it's dusty. It's dingy. Everything's kind of broken.
00:50:58
Speaker
They are auctioning off an old school symbol monkey toy. They're auctioning off the chandelier. The chandelier is like the item label is lot six, six, six, which is amazing and so unnecessary, but also very delightful.
00:51:11
Speaker
as we transition into the story proper, the chandelier lights up and like lifts back up to the ceiling and the theater is like getting kind of reborn around it and coming back to life. And like the dust is gone and the color is coming back into the the opera house.
00:51:31
Speaker
And like now it's Paris 1870. Yeah. I love that moment. And you get, again, this theme music of that descending organ chromatic scale and that's so emblematic. like I think everyone knows this this music, even if they've never seen the musical or the movie or anything.
00:51:48
Speaker
um It's just a really popular little nugget of music. And I think it's so beautifully shot. Like, and it's funny, too, because in so much of film and television, when you go back in time, that's when things usually are in black and white, and then the present day is color. And so of course, here, this is the opposite. And I think um I love that. I think it's a nice touch. But just seeing all the cobwebs leave and then the color coming in at the same time, like, it gets me. It's good.
00:52:19
Speaker
It's a beautiful piece of cinema. Like, it really it really is. It's like a gorgeous transition and you feel like the life being injected back into this place. And we kind of end up in the theater during dress rehearsals, which if you know anything about any type of performing arts, that is...
00:52:39
Speaker
the arguably like a busier, more chaotic time even than an actual show. um Less people, obviously, like without an audience being there. But I think for the people in the show, often much more chaotic. Everyone is really running around and trying to like finalize everything. So we go from it being totally dead and like like neglected to probably it being the most alive that it could possibly be, which is also a really like ah like such a big and interesting distinction.
00:53:08
Speaker
And so the owner of the opera house is retiring. And so he's introducing the two new owners of the opera house to everyone. And we're meeting our cast of characters like at around this time. So we're meeting Carlotta, who is like the prima donna, like the, which is just like the lead character.
00:53:28
Speaker
in an opera. um We're meeting Christine, who's like a chorus girl, essentially. we eventually meet Raul because he shows up at the opera and Christine recognizes him, but he doesn't, I don't know that he doesn't recognize her. He doesn't really see her at first.
00:53:43
Speaker
And we are kind of learning backgrounds. So we're learning about Christine and how she was orphaned. She's the daughter of like a famous violin player, I believe.
00:53:53
Speaker
And she was taken by Madame Giryne to the opera house and like has basically been there since yeah um i do just want to shout out minnie driver who plays carlotta don't like i'm gonna say role of a lifetime i think she's so funny and she's in this role she's meant to be italian and look i'm not italian But I would say her accent is like so good. And just but like in a funny, like we know it's like a caricature of an Italian accent, but it's so, oh my God.
00:54:31
Speaker
Like the hand gestures and the way she's like talking feels very distinctly Italian. So it just, oh my God, I love her so much. Yeah, she's great. And she's not just a caricature of an Italian. She's a caricature of a prima donna, right? Like of this,
00:54:47
Speaker
kind of like larger than life lead role embodying total diva, right? Like she's really like a diva before that was probably a word people used.
00:54:59
Speaker
um And yeah, she's so like, it's just perfect. It's also perfect because the exaggerated components of her like Italian accent and the gesturing just kind of bolsters the character that she is supposed to be playing because she doesn't have all that much to work with to like present her character, but she still does a really, really good job with what's there.
00:55:22
Speaker
And so when she is singing, we have the first incident with the fandom that we actually see. A backdrop falls basically on her and we kind of see a figure in the rafters above like fleeing the scene who presumably has like cut or dropped this on her.
00:55:38
Speaker
And Carlotta is like fed up with everything. And she's like, these things have been happening for three years and like nobody is doing anything about it. So that's how we kind of know, like, this is not news. And like, this is something that's been, you know, brewing for some time.
00:55:53
Speaker
Yeah. And what's interesting is that around this time, we find out that the Phantom is, he calls himself the Opera Ghost. And he feels like much more of like an actual presence in the Opera House compared to the silent film, where in the silent film, it's like you barely even know if this person, this human actually exists behind the scenes.
00:56:14
Speaker
Everyone just kind of talks as like, oh, there's a phantom, but he's he's very, very, very hidden. But in the in the musical, he's he's given a salary of 20,000 francs, which who knows what that translates to, but 20,000 of anything, i think a month.
00:56:30
Speaker
Yeah. That does happen in the books, too. Yeah, I was that they that they talk about that very early that that does happen in the books, too. And I was like, that seems like so I have no idea. Like, this could be $20. You know what I mean? Like, I have no idea what the exchange rate is.
00:56:45
Speaker
i I'm not going to Google it because it doesn't really matter. But like, I'm also like back then to like in back then money, not even like in today money. And I do think that like anything that is about and I think this is where you can see some of the Edgar Allan Poe kind of DNA in there is that anything that's about the opera is on some level going to be about class.
00:57:06
Speaker
Right. And like a certain class of people. So I think that that's here, too, that like even though he's this hidden figure, he has like a standard of luxury. that is very interesting for the type of character that he is. Yeah, he really holds himself in high regard. He, i think, sees himself as the genius that Madame Giry sees him as.
00:57:28
Speaker
Again, in the silent film, I don't think we really get that. I think he does, of course, think he has value. He knows he's a good musician. He sees talent in Christine, etc. But he's not this like big figure in the in the silent film. Whereas, yeah, in the musical,
00:57:46
Speaker
he's like an established person. And it's just that like the people in the opera house haven't seen him or don't really know who he is or like whatever they're trying to figure out the specifics, but they know there's someone like, like you said, these, the I'm God, I'm so close to trying to do the mini driver accent. i' I'll, I'll spare you.
00:58:04
Speaker
But she just has these great lines and she's like, these accidents like have been happening for three years. Like but anyways. Yeah. A fantastic moment. I'm surprised I haven't sung yet, by the way. Like, that's also a feat. And I'll try you to spare you that.
00:58:18
Speaker
You can. You totally i Yeah, I welcome it. I welcome it. um There's a lot of good songs. There's a lot of good songs. So I think that would be fair. But yeah, so so The Phantom...
00:58:30
Speaker
it basically like writes a letter to the new managers of the opera house laying out his terms like he still expects his salary to be coming in he still expects them to leave box five empty d for him at like show nights so that he can watch from box five um and so he is like laying out his terms and they're kind of obviously like You know, they don't totally know what to do with that.
00:58:57
Speaker
um But Carlotta storms off the scene and Christine is basically like voluntold to do it. like Like someone else is like, oh, Christine should do it. She's been taking voice lessons.
00:59:09
Speaker
And they're like asking, who is she taking voice lessons from? And she's like, I don't know who he is which is already fucking weird. But that's what she says. And so Christine gets on stage. She sings the lead and Raul attends. And like he obviously sees her because she is in the lead role.
00:59:27
Speaker
And he recognizes her from when they were much, much younger. And they were kind of like childhood sweethearts when they were little. And this is kind of already a big departure, too, from the original silent film because the Phantom kind of... And this kind of happens later because Carlotta's not, like, quit for good at this point.
00:59:47
Speaker
But Christine's big break comes... kind of from the Phantom, but in a less direct way. He's basically just like making everything very annoying and chaotic for everyone until they leave.
00:59:58
Speaker
So he kind of made Carlotta leave, but like not really. Like he just like made her sick of his own shenanigans. But yeah, so Christine does get to sing the role and she obviously does a beautiful job and everybody is like talking about how amazing she is.
01:00:15
Speaker
I will say also that like, while I understand the Gerard Butler slander in terms of voice and singing, I cannot stand for the Emmy Rossum slander.
01:00:26
Speaker
I get it. Look, she was, she was like 18, first of all, which is wild. But, um, and so I get that her voice was maybe not actually like super mature or refined or whatever,
01:00:38
Speaker
But I think it's lovely. And so that's a line in the sand I'm going to draw for people is that I actually genuinely think she does a great job in this movie.
01:00:48
Speaker
I do too. And I think she has like a youth and youth and innocence about her that is like necessary for the character. I love... so I love Sarah Brightman, like obviously. And I kind of think she's like too good for this role.
01:01:03
Speaker
Like, like only in that she is so powerful and like so personable. perfect sounding in a way that is almost like hard to take in sometimes like it's like how do you sound like that and that wouldn't make sense for this like timid young girl who's never been in the lead who has a beautiful voice but doesn't maybe really know how to wield it with like full power yet so I I've I have no i have literally zero criticism For her as Christine. Yeah, i am in agree I'm in agreement with you on that. I think she did a really good job. but
01:01:41
Speaker
ah Especially because I think her voice actually does ah kind of mature throughout the story and her voice, especially like by the um the song, The Point of No Return, she has these really low notes and all that. And it does sound like fleshed out compared to the first song she sings, Think of Me.
01:01:57
Speaker
Like you said, she is meant to be like really nervous and it's not meant to be super like confident yet. um So again, it's because this kind of acting through song and making sure that how you're singing reflects what your character is going through. I think she nailed that.
01:02:11
Speaker
I totally agree. You can feel her power building in her voice throughout the whole thing, which is like, and and maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe those were easier songs for her, whatever. I don't really care, but but it works well for the plot, which I do like.
01:02:25
Speaker
So after her performance, we see her in the basement. She's lighting a candle. She like goes down there to light candles for her father. We have this like kind of fun thing of her friend is calling for her, but the phantom is also calling for her. So we hear both of them calling her name.
01:02:42
Speaker
He does not show up, presumably because her friend was looking for her, I would imagine. And Christine tells her friend about this angel of music that has been protecting her and teaching her to sing and has kind of always been around, but also that like deeply frightens her, that she's she's very scared of him.
01:03:01
Speaker
um And she's she's kind of confiding in her friend about And then after that, Raul goes to Christine after the show and he wants to like take her on a date kind of. And she in my notes, I said, she's like, no, daddy is strict, LOL.
01:03:17
Speaker
But she my notes are ridiculous, which I hope you got a kick out of. when you love them But but he wants to take her out and she she doesn't literally say daddy is strict, obviously.
01:03:30
Speaker
But she basically says, like, I'm not able to do that. You're going to have like with that can't happen. And then really shortly after that, we finally see the Phantom for real. And this moment is interesting because this is another big difference between, I think, the 25 silent film and this musical is in the silent film. When we first see the Phantom, she is horrified. Like she is not there's no respect underlying it. There's no like beauty underlying the moment.
01:03:58
Speaker
And in this, it's like she is in awe of him. She does seem afraid, but she seems like This is like a funny way of saying it, but I always say that like I feel very in awe of the ocean. I think it is like the most beautiful thing that exists, but it also scares the ever loving shit out of me.
01:04:15
Speaker
and And I feel like that's like the energy that she has towards him where she is really afraid of him, but like so impressed and like deeply respects him and has this like ah love, maybe lust. it It's not totally clear, but like has this like attraction to him.
01:04:32
Speaker
ah that isn't really there in the silent film. No, I will say this sequence especially is like, the tone is very sexy. and And I would assume it's the same like on stage, like ah for the musical, because Andrew Lloyd Webber was was one of the actual screenwriters for this.
01:04:48
Speaker
So like, it's it's it's the sequence as they go through the like, hidden hallway, it's all like kind of lit up. And what's interesting is later Meg, who's Madame Jury's daughter and Christine's friend,
01:05:00
Speaker
She goes through that same hallway and it's like dilapidated. There's rats running around. There's like cobwebs and everything. And I actually only noticed that I think on this rewatch, which is kind of crazy.
01:05:11
Speaker
um But I think what's what that lends me to think about is like when Christine and the Phantom are going through it, she's all like glammed up. Her hair is like 10 times curlier than it just was. i love it I think it's this ah this thing of like, in her mind, this hallway is super glammed up as well, you know? And she's like, like you said, she's seeing this figure. It's so unclear whether she just thinks it's like a quote unquote angel of music sent to her by her father, or if she really thinks that maybe it's like her father reincarnated. It's not totally clear.
01:05:41
Speaker
There are moments in in this sequence, which is the Phantom of the Opera song, and then eventually the Music of the Night song that are very sensual. And so in my head, I'm like, at what point, what's going on in Christine's head?
01:05:54
Speaker
Cause we know the Phantom really likes her. That's one thing.
01:06:00
Speaker
Where's the father in all of this? Is she okay? I think it is very ambiguous in the movie, and I don't think this is canonically thing, but I'm going to say that I choose to believe she does not think this is her father in any sort of meaningful way, because I simply can't. Let's go with that, please. I simply can't.
01:06:18
Speaker
I don't know why. like I mean, this is coming from someone who's obsessed with flowers in the attic, so like I don't know where why this is like a thing for me with this movie, but i I'm really choosing... to say that she doesn't, she's not, she's not relating those things to each other um in that way.
01:06:35
Speaker
Yeah, it does seem later on, she does invoke this idea of like an angel of music has been sent to her by her father. So yes, please let's, yes, let's do that. We can go with that. We can go with that version of things, but yes, it's very sensual, very seductive.
01:06:50
Speaker
um It's very dreamlike. the And I think like what you said about like her mind creating this this beautiful version of what is happening when and what is happening is maybe a lot less beautiful.
01:07:01
Speaker
But it is, um it's just like eye candy. it there They're in the water. The chandeliers are rising out of the water, which makes literally no sense, but that like makes it so much better that it makes no sense.
01:07:13
Speaker
They're singing together, and he's like, sing for me. And she's hitting higher and higher notes as he keeps being like, sing for me. It's so sexy, and it's so intimate. And I just like that whole sequence of...
01:07:27
Speaker
the Phantom of the Opera song into the Music of the Night song is just like, I think is my favorite sequence of the movie, like it's i of the musical. i It's so good. It like gives me chills.
01:07:40
Speaker
Because it's also, there's like a rock influence. Andrew Lloyd Webber made several rock operas when Jesus Christ Superstar, Evita even. And while this is um maybe a more traditional film,
01:07:52
Speaker
opera musical theater score, you have like ah drums, like a drum set and bass and electric guitar. And like you have is in the Phantom of the Opera song. It's kind of like a rock song in such a different way than you might think a rock song would be.
01:08:09
Speaker
But it's very Andrew Lloyd Webber. And he is like a rock star. Like I think I honestly this hadn't occurred to me, but like the Phantom is so much like a rock star. That's so true.
01:08:20
Speaker
And it's so much like this young girl and this rock star, right? Like that is kind of the type of energy that the sequence has. Like he's bringing her into his world and like showing her how things are there. it's it's It just like has that vibe.
01:08:36
Speaker
A lot of this sequence plays on the way that music is very seductive. Even if we kind of take the, I guess like sexual and sensual element out of the word seduction, like it is meant to like grab you by your soul and your body, right? It moves you emotionally. It moves you physically. Like, right. If you hear good song, you're going to, you're move to it, even if it's gentle, right? Like it's going to have this deep kind of profound effect on you. So music is really seductive. And so there's this kind of weaving of music and seduction that is like the whole, through the whole story that I really love.
01:09:12
Speaker
Yeah. And music clearly means so much to Christine from her father, having been a musician Now she doesn't have him, but she's been surrounded by music being in the opera house. So even though she's very young, her whole life is music.
01:09:25
Speaker
And for the Phantom, that's basically the same for him. And I think that's probably what he saw in her anyways in the beginning is, oh, this poor little girl who doesn't seem to have a family anymore. She's been brought to this opera house. She clearly has some talent.
01:09:38
Speaker
Let me... guide her groom maybe don't know but like you know let me be that influence for her and the music of the night oh my god one of my favorite songs for sure like it's so beautiful there is that funny moment towards the end of the song where ah Christine or i don't know if the phantom like opens his I guess like bedroom to her whatever or she just goes in it but she sees this essentially like wax figure of her is is she a wedding dress already at that point in the wax figure yeah the wax figure is wearing the wedding dress which is alarming so yeah that's that's extra like I know I'm a lot as a person but like that's too much yeah um and she faints because she's like what the fuck
01:10:23
Speaker
What i think is really cool to compare this moment to actually is the silent film, because that is not what's in his bedroom in the silent film. What's there is actually a coffin. And he tells Christine in the silent film that it's to remind him of death so that every night he goes in this coffin to be like, I guess, reminded, yeah, of the impending nature of death. And he doesn't necessarily elaborate too much, but Yeah, the fact that then in the musical, it's actually like, no, like the the Phantom is just really, really focused on Christine and that's all he thinks about. And he's made this figure of her and it's, yeah, extremely creepy.
01:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, this is, so I i saw, you you would hate this movie, don't see it, but I'm going to say this anyway. Nothing I'm going to say is going to be scary, but you'll just don't see the movie. um I saw 28 years later, ah yesterday, there's like a scene, i i won't get too far into it, but there's like a scene where he's talking about like the concept of like memento mori and like how we we remember that we die, we remember that we must die.
01:11:27
Speaker
And afterwards, he also says, I'm going to butcher this. It's like memento amour. Like it's not amour, but like it's whatever the Latin would be for love.
01:11:38
Speaker
And he's like, we remember that we must die, but we also remember that we must love. And I'm just like thinking about that in the context of this kind of toxic love for Christine and the the reminders of death all around. And I actually do think that the reminders of death are kind of still there in the in the musical, but just in it just like looks different.
01:11:59
Speaker
ah This kind of marriage that I think exists in a lot of a lot of media between like love and death. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's just also like somewhat of an escape for him. He's essentially confined to his lair. And once he has, he's spent maybe a decade now so like fixating on Christine and teaching her and everything. And maybe it's a way for him to not, to to shift his focus instead of being like, oh, I'm this terrible creature stuck downstairs or whatever.
01:12:29
Speaker
um He can shift his focus to, like you said, to love actually. i know, yes, it is very toxic and very, not good. um But I get it from his perspective. It's in a way, in a way it does have a purity to it, I think, or at least I feel like the story posits a purity in the sense that Christine is the kind of opposite of the Phantom. She's supposed to be this young, virginal, pure, all this is quotation marks, white, of course, because old stories and
01:13:04
Speaker
racism and all that so she's she's the embodiment of this like perfect human being in the comparison to the phantom who the main difference of course is the is his face but he's he's this outcast and anyway so i think for him it's like he sees this again quote unquote pure woman and and maybe chooses to focus his attention there to like what he considers to be the light maybe That makes a lot of sense. And it's like something to shift his perspective and shift his focus.
01:13:35
Speaker
So this whole sequence is happening. He puts her in the bed and like she's down there. And then after she wakes up, she kind of sneaks up. And this is when she removes his mask and we get the reveal of his face. That is ah like we said, supposed to be incredibly disturbing and alarming, but like really I think.
01:13:55
Speaker
i think um he seems to have like burns on like like the top quarter of it. like Like it's really one side on the top half. So it's not even like that much of his face really.
01:14:08
Speaker
And that is... the big review the and And they do a thing, i don't know if you noticed it, to this but they do a thing with the lighting in the scene where they shine like a like what appears to be like a very warm colored light, maybe even like a reddish tint light on the part of his face that is deformed to kind of like exaggerate it, which is kind of like also interesting and like weird.
01:14:32
Speaker
um But I know you have, like I don't know if like if you want to have like what you're the rest of your thoughts about what he looks like are. Yeah, I think also, like, we we don't see the full extent of his face in that moment. We see it at the end in the point of no return.
01:14:47
Speaker
um So, ah yeah yeah, like, it's like a face reveal, but only, like, partially. And so we're I feel like as a viewer, you're taken aback as to, like, why Christine has such a big reaction. But then the Phantom has, like, ah a ginormously outsized reaction to this. But at the same time, this is the crux of it.
01:15:08
Speaker
the story is how he feels about his face. But he's super basically abusive to her right away, kind of knocks her over, gets very angry, says a slew of calls her like Pandora and like all these like crazy terms and whatever.
01:15:22
Speaker
But I think Christine already is having these thoughts of like, oh, it's not like that bad. Like, why is he so upset? think it's, is it at that moment he brings her back to the ah world above?
01:15:35
Speaker
I do think that that's like where she kind of goes back and we kind of resume with the rest of the opera house. But yes, he has this big outlandish response and that increases Christine's fear, not necessarily of his face, but just of him.
01:15:50
Speaker
right So she is actually, you know, you could imagine a world where maybe she's never seen somebody who looks like this. I don't know if France had this, but like, you know, the US had like ugly laws about like, like, like the visibility of people with physical differences.
01:16:07
Speaker
I think that it would be scary if you had never seen anybody who looked like that before. I do think I like i have space that for the idea that like that would be scary if you didn't understand and like when you initially saw it. So you could imagine a version of this exchange where she has that initial shock reaction and then is like, but I know this person and like this is fine and like you're still the person that has been teaching me music and I still know you and like we still have this relationship and whatever.
01:16:35
Speaker
But because he is lashing out at her instead she goes from a little bit shocked to much much more scared because of his like increasing aggression so I think that's a really important thing like her biggest reaction in this scene is not really about what he looks like it's about how he is suddenly treating her yeah absolutely Can I explain the next section of the musical? Because there's a line that I love so much.
01:17:04
Speaker
Totally. Yes. the Phantom sends many of the characters a letter explaining what he wants out of each of them or like warning them of things. So the new owners get a letter. Raul gets a note. I think Carlotta gets a note. They all get a note. And i I don't know if that part of the musical has a name to it because it's not really a song.
01:17:24
Speaker
So when Raul gets the note, he thinks it's the owners that it sent it to him. So one of the owners goes, ah like he's he's trying to rhyme from the previous line in the musical. So he says, and what is it that we're meant to have wrote?
01:17:39
Speaker
Written. Because he knows that you don't say wrote in that way. But it reminded me of um in Wicked, in Popular, where Glinda goes, she's also trying to rhyme. So she says, there's nothing that can stop you from becoming popular. Lar.
01:17:53
Speaker
la just completely i love when that happens, because you're like the, the writer is acknowledging that like, okay, I needed to rhyme from the previous line. But also, I know that that's not the proper word or the proper pronunciation. So i just Like chef's kiss. Yeah, I love that too. I think it's very, it's like a nice little meta moment where we're like acknowledging the absurdity of having a rhyme structure for like human interaction.
01:18:18
Speaker
Exactly. I love it. But yeah, so he's writing everybody's letters. He is kind of trying to give everyone like one last chance to do right by him. He really considers the opera house to be his opera house. And so he is like, okay, it's time for everybody to get on board and like do this the way I want to do it. And so- It's time for them to put on their next opera.
01:18:42
Speaker
And Carlotta has like a throat spray that she uses, like probably honey or something you know whatever. And um he swaps it out with something that is like you know presumably bad or poison or you know some something that you shouldn't spray in your throat.
01:18:57
Speaker
He also... And he's like, and he's like didn't i ask for box five to be kept empty for me which it wasn't um while this is all happening charlotta gets the throat spray and she uses it and then she starts like messing up and she's kind of like croaking out some of her lines um And so this like it gets determined that Christine is going to fill in for her for the rest of the show. And something that I noticed as she was like getting ready and then also in the first instance of her kind of covering for Carlotta, Carlotta always has full opera makeup on where she's like...
01:19:33
Speaker
painted, you know, which I actually think is very cool. Like, i actually think that kind of makeup is very cool. But Christine doesn't have that ever. Christine just always looks like the most beautiful version of herself when she is, like, given a shining moment, which is kind of interesting. I don't really, like, know what to make of that.
01:19:50
Speaker
But I just, like, was wondering if you noticed that. Yeah, I don't think I'd kind of put into words, but you're so right. it just shows us like how much of a prima donna Carlotta is um and how much of a diva she sees herself as that she's always in character and like always has to be extra and big and like she can't possibly play the page boy role because that's Not only like it's like even the costume is small, you know, and she has to have a big dress and big hair and big makeup. And um it's almost drag, really, I think.
01:20:24
Speaker
Oh, yeah, totally. Totally. And I think it also gives that sense of Christine as ah natural, right? Like she is naturally a star. She is like a natural prima donna.
01:20:36
Speaker
And so I think there's it just yeah, it was just something interesting that stuck out to me. um But so as the show is happening, the stagehand. sees the phantom kind of like running across causing whatever mischief and hunts him down but ultimately he chickens out of this pursuit because the phantom is scary and he runs away and then like is confronted by the phantom and like a chase ensues and and then eventually the phantom gets him and hangs the stage hand from the rafters above the stage in the middle of the opera which is a really intense scene
01:21:12
Speaker
Yeah, and the music before is really fascinating because you have the music from the opera. They decide to do a but the ballet section while Christine is getting ready to take on the lead role. And so it's just very it's in a major key. It's very happy and beautiful. But you get in the actual scoring of the movie, you get this very sinister music at the exact same time.
01:21:34
Speaker
And I think it's very well done and very well mixed because you get both. It's not that the music itself is just weird. It's that you literally have beautiful music and scary music at the same time. And it's very well done. It's obviously very disturbing to see the stagehand be hanged and fall from the ceiling. Obviously, everyone is super disturbed.
01:21:54
Speaker
And then interestingly, we then don't get to see Christine in this role because this has happened and she and Raoul go up to the roof and it's winter. I think it's like, so that's like a really nice touch. It's that it's like kind of cold and snowy and that sort of thing.
01:22:11
Speaker
ah We, I think we both brought this up in our notes where like Christine is trying to explain to Raoul like about the phantom and she knows that the phantom dead that does this. And he's like, girl, no, there's no phantom.
01:22:23
Speaker
And I'm like, what? Sir, excuse me. do you who do you think did this? Like, clearly there's someone. And he also just got there. That's the other thing is like, he just got there. Like, she's been there for this whole time.
01:22:36
Speaker
And she's like, you've been here five minutes and you mean to tell me what's in the opera house? Like,
Phantom's Interference and Christine's Conflict
01:22:40
Speaker
I don't think so. um But yeah, they're talking about him and. The Phantom hears them talking about him and hears Christine's ambivalent feelings about him where she sees him as this kind of loving and protective figure, but also does see him as like a dangerous and scary person.
01:23:01
Speaker
Yeah, she has a line where she says, can I ever escape from that face? So distorted, deformed, it was hardly a face. And that's where I'm like, again, girl, I don't know what you saw, but like it's really not that bad.
01:23:15
Speaker
I obviously, again, of course, it's like the shock value and just like, the shtick of like, oh my god, the Phantom is so scary. It's such a crazy face, which is, yeah, just so terrible. But like, it's to be like, it was hardly a face. I'm like, I don't know about you. I'm seeing half of Gerard Butler's face. may Might I remind you, this man is quite beautiful. Three quarters, really.
01:23:37
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's so interesting. It's like so interesting. that' it's Yeah. um And I do wonder how much of her perception of the type of of what she saw is colored by his behavior, right? But it is, yeah, it feels a little absurd. Yes.
01:23:50
Speaker
But they do, they start singing All I Ask of You and they're singing like so lovingly to each other and he promises her that he will protect her and take care of her and like that they will be together And I think that when you take that song and then you take the Phantom of the Opera music of the night sequence kind of, and you you hold them up to each other, it's very much like this distinction between like what could be a healthy, real like even though in this moment Raoul is kind of gaslighting her about the Phantom. I don't think he's trying to do that, but that is what he's that is what he's doing.
01:24:25
Speaker
But he is really promising her like a sense of stability and ah ah a relationship and a in a ah meaningful way. And the phantom is really offering her seduction, right? Where we're really looking at that like lust and that like pull towards a spark versus like a pull towards something stable with a foundation that you could build off of and grow with, right? And and it really is like these two types of relationships that I think everyone, but like women are faced with.
01:24:53
Speaker
And I think a lot of people have these experiences where you have this person who is not good for you and you know they're not good for you but like you feel so much with them that you are drawn through this like and you're kind of drawn through it like it's a dream you know and then here is this other man who is like offering her a real relationship and offering her a real life and she wants it but you you can see the like kind of conflict there Yeah, because also I think the Phantom doesn't understand the appeal of Raoul in particular. Like, okay, fine, he was your childhood sweetheart. I don't even know if he knows that. But for the Phantom, he sees himself as this great genius, a musical genius. And in his head, it's so clear to him that Christine and him would make a good pair, not only for her career, but, you know, for...
01:25:39
Speaker
like in love as well so I think he's just like just so annoyed by anything that that Christine sees in our own and the Phantom is like so distraught when he like sees them singing this song he's so upset I would assume this like I think this is where the intermission is I've never actually seen the musical on stage I really want to one day But this is kind of like halfway through the movie where there's a really nice shot of the Phantom like standing on this statue and his like cape is flying and he's all mad.
01:26:12
Speaker
And then the camera like like goes into like a wide shot and like zooms away from him. It's really, really beautifully done. Yeah, it has kind of a Sweeney Todd feel when he's holding up his razor blade, right? Like it it has that same kind of feeling.
01:26:27
Speaker
That's another like movie musical that I think like the movie did a really good job with. So I've seen it a lot of times. um I've seen the play once. They're and like a little bit different tonally but I do think the movie works really well and I i picture yeah like that scene of him like where he's like fine like the the kind of like fuck it moment where then he's like I will just kill everyone then oh that's so true it's like a turning point where he's like even even in some way he he's mad at Christine now like he's not fully enamored anymore yeah for sure I think that is where the intermission would be, would be like after that moment of him. And then, and and I think that because of that moment feeling like an ending, and then also because the next song, Masquerade, feels like the first song back after an intermission, right? Like it's it's kind of a full ensemble moment, which I think is, you know, how we how we jump back in. So...
01:27:15
Speaker
We have Masquerade, which is what it sounds like. There's a masquerade happening. That song is really, I think it's like one of the songs I remembered the most from when I was a kid, which is kind of interesting.
01:27:27
Speaker
And the Phantom shows up. Yeah, he's in this, like everyone is basically in black and white, like costumes, essentially. And he shows up in this red outfit and you, I think it mirrors, or you talked about the mask with the red death or what was it the mask of the red death yeah where there's like the rich people like celebrating like and like hold up in a palace in the midst of a plague and then like the red death shows up and whatever so he is like bringing death upon this party Oh yeah, for sure. It's a really like, um this to me, he's, it's a really hot moment. I have to say he looks really good in this costume.
01:28:06
Speaker
He looks good the whole time, but this one, this one I like. What I think is fascinating in this moment is when he reveals that he's written a new opera called Don Juan Triumphant.
01:28:18
Speaker
And Don Juan is this nowadays pretty infamous fictional character who's originally like a Spanish libertine. He's known for seducing women. And ah in the story, i don't know what the details, like but you know, he kills his lover's father.
01:28:35
Speaker
and then at the end of the story, he's dragged down to hell by basically like a statue of the father or like something kind of mystical. And I have to say, as a classical musician, Mozart's opera, Don Giovanni is like really quite amazing. And that's what that's, that's the story of Don Juan in that opera.
01:28:54
Speaker
But I think this was such a, this makes so much sense as a choice for the musical, for the Phantom to have written an opera about Don Juan, because I think that's how he sees himself. Of course he's, he has to be hidden. He's not going around town seducing women like Don Juan would be, but just with Christine, like he sees himself as this, yeah, kind of a libertine who, ah he didn't kill Christine's father, but like the father is missing.
01:29:22
Speaker
And so there's, the parallels are quite interesting. And then when we get to the actual opera, when it gets staged at the end of the musical, it's a one for one parallel of like what's happening in like a meta way. And then what's happening in the opera.
01:29:36
Speaker
I love him at a meta moment. So I do, I do really like how that pulls together. But yeah, so he presents them with this opera that he's written. He tells everyone off and then like kind of disappears down a hole in the floor um into his like, you know, below the opera layer and Raoul follows him. And then Madame Jerry finds Raoul and tells him what she knows about the phantom. And so In like a traveling show, there had been a boy that who's like kind of like show title was called The Devil's Child with a deformed face. And he would like wear a bag over his head. And then there would be like a big reveal moment in front of the audiences.
01:30:15
Speaker
And he was like beaten and tortured and like really mised mistreated. And, you know, you can only imagine it's like worse than the five minutes we get of it on screen. And she as a child witnessed this boy kill his like captor, his handler in this show who had abused him. And the two of them run off and she hides him in like in the depths of the opera house. So he's been there from from childhood.
01:30:41
Speaker
And it's like the probably the first and only place he's ever really felt safe. And so as she's like telling him this, Christine goes to visit her dad's grave.
01:30:52
Speaker
And of course, the Phantom is there because of course he's there. But also kind of interesting that he leaves the opera house, you know, like he he really like leaves to be there, which I think feels...
01:31:04
Speaker
somehow like different and significant that he follows there her there. He is kind of seducing her as he does. And Raul shows up. This is like such a, this moment to me is like comically sexy. Like I don't really find it that sexy, but it's like comically sexy. He shows up, he like rides up on a horse and he's in this like old school V-neck long sleeve shirt that's like billowing in the wind as he's riding up on this horse. His hair is blowing. that Like it's so...
01:31:32
Speaker
cliche but like perfect like just absolutely perfect it's the most it's the most embodied form of the word billowing like that's the only word you can use yeah and also when he originally gets on his horse like when he notices christine is gone and he thinks the phantom has taken her he like literally runs and hops onto the horse And it is quite astounding. And then he like takes off.
01:32:00
Speaker
And what the other thing I find very interesting is that Raoul is dressed in white, well, like his shirt at least is white, and he's riding a white horse, ah whereas the Phantom is dressed in black, which he does anyways, like most of the musical, but I'm pretty sure he's on a black horse. And just in like the most basic of like, ah what's it called? Like symbolism.
01:32:24
Speaker
you know, you can interpret this as like, yes, of course, Raoul is like the white knight or whatever, and the phantom is the evil monster. um But also what i kind of notice is that Raoul does have a bit of like a theme music going on when he's doing something particularly heroic. And the music that is scored for him is primarily played by the French horn, um or maybe like a ah group of more than one French horn.
01:32:52
Speaker
And in classical music, that is a completely like direct association with heroism. The most like common example would be Beethoven's Third Symphony, the Eroica Symphony, which opens and the theme has the French horn. and so There's a, it's in Strauss, it's like in so much music, the French horn is meant to be like an easy association. Like you hear it, it's like a heroic moment.
01:33:16
Speaker
So it's just, I just love, I kind of like that, that it's, I like that I noticed that and that clearly we're meant to think of Raoul as like the savior. Yeah, I think the music cues and the visual cues are really lining up in this scene too. So it's it's like a very powerful, like this man is the hero moment.
01:33:36
Speaker
And then the Phantom and Raul get in a sword fight. I love a sword fight moment. Anytime. Raul does win, like arguably wins. And he is about to kill the Phantom and Christine asks him not to kill her.
01:33:50
Speaker
And we get this line from the fandom where he says, now let it be war upon you both. So he's done. he's like He's mad at Christine. He's mad at Raoul. He's totally done. And he is now scheming further.
01:34:03
Speaker
So there's a plan in place to capture the fandom during like the next show. yeah and it's a really beautiful moment where Christine is really scared and she's confiding in Raoul about this plan.
01:34:17
Speaker
And it's... There's one moment that always makes me laugh because she's like so clearly upset. And the end of that sequence, so the end of that scene is Raul saying to her, Christine, he's singing, of course, but Christine, don't think that I don't care, but every hope and every prayer rests on you now.
01:34:39
Speaker
In what world is that comforting? makes me laugh so hard because I'm like, this poor girl is already crying. And you're just like, hey, just to let you know, like,
01:34:49
Speaker
if this doesn't go well, it's on you It's a lot of pressure. And so then she, and then she also has to go like literally perform on top of that, right? Like she has to go like be the star of this opera, which she does. And during it, the fandom shows up to duet with her. And I think this is what you were talking about where the, the opera and the actual story start to entwine and mirror each other. and Raul watches this like very tender, very sexy moment of them singing together because she like looks in it. It doesn't look like acting, right? Like it like she looks very swept up in him and Raul is like watching them and he like literally has tears in his eyes. He like feels like he's losing her to the Phantom, I think in that moment.
01:35:36
Speaker
And the Phantom even starts to sing to her the song that she and Raul sung earlier And she's crying. And then this is when she reveals his face to everyone else. So like she's seen it, but now she reveals it to the crowd where there are like guards and police and like everyone who works at the opera house are like looking out for him.
01:35:59
Speaker
And this is where we have our chandelier moment, which is like the most classic thing ever where he cuts the chandelier as like kind of a distraction so that he can escape with Christine back into the depths of the opera house.
01:36:12
Speaker
Yeah, super, super iconic moment. So the musical is not on Broadway anymore. it It is, I think it still stands as the longest running musical of all time, but it ended in 2023, I believe.
01:36:24
Speaker
ah In any case, it's in the West End, and but I think it's a pared down version. So I don't know if they still do the chandelier drop. um I know my my parents saw production of it in Canada like... Maybe like in the 80s or 90s.
01:36:36
Speaker
And it was like so spectacular for them, like that moment. I don't I don't know exactly how it's done, but it seems like super, super cool. I saw the one in Vegas, like, you know, they had they it was like all the all it took continuously there and like the theater was built for it.
01:36:52
Speaker
And they do a chandelier drop where like the lights go out as the chandelier falls onto the audience. And I wasn't under, honestly, like, thank God I wasn't, I knew it was going to happen, but like, I still think I would have literally had a heart attack and simply died on the floor. But there, there was like, it was so cool. Like it was such a cool,
01:37:14
Speaker
Right. Like, and why not just do something like that with such a successful show that could like pull it off? Because it is it's so cool. It just makes it like so intense. But before he cuts the chandelier, before he like escapes and disappears with Christine, like the events that are happening in the opera are a direct mirror of the events that are actually happening in the story that we're watching. So I wonder if you like want to talk about that kind of parallel.
01:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, so what's interesting actually is that the Phantom was not like necessarily meant to feature in the opera. He, think, kills Pianji, who's Carlotta's partner in the operas, and I think they're together in real life too.
01:37:55
Speaker
And he dons the the character of Don Juan, and he goes on stage and acts like him. And in the opera that the Phantom wrote, he's talking about essentially this plan and seducing this ah young girl and everything. And in a funny way, that's kind of what's happening, but to the Phantom in the story is that there's a plot to ensnare him instead.
01:38:17
Speaker
And he's not really aware of that. And it's a really, like we had mentioned earlier, it's a very sensual like moment in the opera, but like you can tell that the Phantom and Christine are having this actual like real moment, which is why Raoul gets so emotional.
01:38:35
Speaker
there's like a leaning into the situation that you see in Christine that you haven't necessarily seen fully in any other circumstances, which is interesting because it does seem to happen after she's kind of made her decision to be with Raul. But it's, it's, I think again, just like showing that kind of addictive nature of toxic love where like,
01:38:55
Speaker
he shows back up and it's like she's powerless to that's so disempowering to say but like she's she's powerless to resist him essentially yeah so in that way it is kind of interesting that she i guess maybe comes back to her senses and decides to take his mask off so that the plan gets more like put in motion and what I love is the moment so the phantom is shocked and feels betrayed and then he does basically grab her and does this thing where they fall plunge through the middle of the stage and yeah in the opera, he wrote the middle of the stage are represent, it has like these flames of hell ah because of the story of Don Juan. So they literally as well, like in the Phantom of the Opera musical fall through hell through the stage.
01:39:43
Speaker
So it's just like kind of a very meta moment. And the next sequence is one of my favorites. I mean, past point of no return, like down once more and all of this, um, this section is like, whenever I watch the movie, I have this part stuck in my head for like five days.
01:40:00
Speaker
um He's the, the mob starts to hunt him ah essentially. And he's talking about his childhood and what he's singing when he's bringing, when he's basically kidnapping Christine, he says down once more to the dungeons of my black despair down. We plunge to the prison of my mind down that path into darkness, deep as hell. And he really screams the word hell.
01:40:22
Speaker
He has another a couple of other lines in this sequence that speak to how he sees himself. He says, not for any mortal sin, but the wickedness of my abhorrent face.
01:40:34
Speaker
And then he also says no kind words from anyone, no compassion anywhere. So you can really see he's, might I say, crashing out at this point. He's really like not doing well.
01:40:46
Speaker
He's really like trying to, he's just letting out all this fury that he has from how poorly people have treated him. The juxtaposition of his past and this current kind of chase for him feels really intense and like really emotional.
01:41:03
Speaker
Obviously he has brought this wave of violence on himself through his you know, recent violent actions, but you also like imagine kind of the level of like being triggered, right? That like he has kind of spent his whole life being pointed at and stared at and kind of chased down. And, you know, you have to imagine like how he came to be in the traveling show that he must have been kind of like kidnapped, sold, maybe given away by his parents, right? Like there's a lot of different ways that that could end up, but you're kind of like watching him,
01:41:36
Speaker
And then I think like the knowledge that this is like been his only safe place and it's kind of no longer safe. So it's really he's really scary and he's really violent and cruel at this point. But it's also it's it's just really, really tragic.
01:41:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's really sad. like And because the musical is much longer than the silent film, i think it allows this character of the Phantom to be so much more fleshed out. And so you do have these complex feelings towards this character. And this moment is this moment through the whole rest of the movie is so, like it is really sad to watch him. Because he kind of goes back and forth between feeling really sad for him and then we'll talk about Raoul coming to Christine's rescue and that moment is a bit more violent again and finally goes back to being more like sad so it's so intense yeah while this is while he's like escaping with Christine and having these kind of flashbacks and the mob is hunting him down Raul is looking for them too and he falls into like this underground chamber full of water that I I've
01:42:47
Speaker
said like reminded me of like a saw trap because he like drops into the water and then seemingly almost automatically the the great falls not falls but like lowers to the surface of the water and then like slowly goes and you know beneath the surface of the water so that he's not able to come up for air.
01:43:08
Speaker
but he finds the like crank for it underwater and is able to raise it and be able to get out. So he yeah he like falls into this trap for him that is really interesting that it's even there um and raises some raises some questions as to as to why that why that's there. But it it is.
01:43:29
Speaker
He absolutely could have died there. While this is happening and while Raul is looking for them and while everyone's kind of descending into, you know, the depths of the opera house, into kind of his domain, he is trying to get Christine into the wedding dress and into the veil.
01:43:48
Speaker
And like, as he is doing this, he's talking about like his mommy issues, basically, which feels very on the nose that he's like, I'm going to build a bride for myself and I'm going to talk to her about my mom. Right. Like it's just feels very Freudian.
01:44:04
Speaker
The subtlety has left the building. The subtlety has absolutely left the building. There wasn't a ton of it to begin with, but whatever there is now gone. I think this moment feels really important to me, the part where she confronts him and says, like, your face isn't that scary, but your soul is scary, right? Like, I'm not afraid of you because of what you look like. I'm afraid of you because of who you are and how you're showing up in the world.
01:44:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like a bookend to after the music of the night when you mentioned that When she removes the mask, at first, yeah, she's taken aback. But I fully agree with what you said, that it's really his behavior right away that scares her and shows her this dark side of of him in terms of his personality, not his face.
01:44:51
Speaker
So again, like this whole, the rest of the musical is her understanding, like how violent at this point he is, how abusive he is.
01:45:02
Speaker
And she says there sinks. I keep saying say, but like they don't say anything in this musical. They just sing. But um she says to him, this haunted face holds no horror for me now. It's in your soul that the true distortion lies.
01:45:14
Speaker
I think that sort of gets him thinking like, OK. hey, maybe I've gone a bit far now. He comes around in a way that is like sort of, and like if you don't know the story, I think it's fairly unexpected and fairly sudden seeming without all these like little tidbits that are, I think like that I notice more because I'm watching it and like taking notes, like I'm watching it differently when I know that I'm going to like sit down and have like a kind of organized conversation about it.
01:45:42
Speaker
and So I think a lot of those moments stand out more. But yeah, she she confronts him about this. She says that, she like you said, she sings that line. And I think distortion is a really good word, right? Because I think that like his life and his existence has become so distorted by, not by his face, but by the experience that having that face has brought him, right? And like the the world that he has had to inhabit.
01:46:09
Speaker
and the fact that the world is so different because of his differences. Yeah. On that note, I actually have a question for you because the word distortion ah makes me think of the mirrors and mirrors feature so heavily in both the musical and the silent film.
01:46:25
Speaker
um So I'm curious, like, I mean, the a mirror in its simplest form, I feel like in film and television is this idea of like self-reflection, like very literal self-reflection.
01:46:38
Speaker
But I think it's, way different in this story. and Like, what do you make of the meaning of having so many mirrors? And also there was like that, that kind of torture room with a bunch of mirrors around each other, but he has mirrors in his lair. Yeah. What do you make of that?
01:46:55
Speaker
So the Phantom spends his whole life tortured, right? Like he is like in the musical, right? He's tortured in his childhood by the people running this like show And you can imagine like the torture of solitude, right? Like the torture of isolation.
01:47:14
Speaker
i think that like we learn as humans like very quickly to feel like we don't deserve peace and we don't deserve to feel okay when we're never allowed to feel peace and we're never allowed to feel okay. And so i do think there's an element of like, like you you used the word in the notes, like masochism. And i do think that that is there to an extent.
01:47:34
Speaker
I also wonder about if I have to live with this face, then I have to live with this face, right? Like I almost wonder, and and I don't know that I really see this in the movie, but like, i I think my like optimism wants it to be there of like, can I desensitize myself to my own image? Like, can i see my so can i see myself differently if I continue to expose myself to my own image?
01:47:57
Speaker
um I do also wonder if when he is alone, does he have his mask on or not? and is like a question I have asked myself a lot of times. I mean, i assume that when he's running around scheming, he would have the mask on because there's like the potential of being spotted.
01:48:16
Speaker
But I think like when he's in his like lair, in his like chambers, you know, is he sitting in front of these mirrors? with a mask, trying to internalize the image of him with the mask as his true face? Or is he sitting there with the mirrors looking at like this deformity that he has that's not really that bad, but we're supposed to treat as if it's really, really, really terrible?
The Phantom's Realization and Resolution
01:48:40
Speaker
That's such a good question. I did not even think of that. I think there's a moment ah before the ah the Don Juan opera gets put on that he's like getting ready and he's singing and he has the little figurines of the opera. And I think maybe he like either puts his mask on or adjusts it or something. So that's making me think that he wasn't wearing it when he was alone.
01:49:04
Speaker
So that's so, so interesting to think about. I feel like, yeah, probably when he's just like in his lair proper, I feel like maybe he doesn't wear it. And then I like what you said about the mirrors, like desensitizing him.
01:49:20
Speaker
And then, ah and not to jump over too far, but we do have towards the end of the the story, him smashing the mirrors. Well, and then I know there's also like, right, the element of Christine going through the mirror. There's so much mirror stuff.
01:49:35
Speaker
And I think that like Christine and the Phantom are going through a similar kind of thing of having to kind of confront their lives, confront the situations that they're in And she has been in this position where she like has a phantom, like she like, that sounds funny, but like, she like has a phantom who like teaches her music. Like that's kind of an unbelievable circumstance. And like, she's having her big break and like, people are probably going to be asking her things that she's probably not prepared to answer.
01:50:06
Speaker
because I don't know how much she's really thought about her circumstances before all of this. And then like he is obviously confronting his own life because I think that through the sale of the opera house, he is realizing that like his own situation is kind of untenable and unsustainable, right? And that his control is smaller than he thought. And I think that he is kind of being confronted with like his own smallness in his world and not just how small his world is, but how small he is within it, right? He has no power.
01:50:38
Speaker
he he has this image of himself as powerful. And I, this is only occurring to me right now, but as I think about the mirror smashing, it's like, is this the recognition that the image he has been seeing in the mirror has not been real, right? He has conceived of himself as the phantom He sees this opera house as his opera house.
01:50:59
Speaker
And like that perspective is being shattered through this story. And so is this him being like, I have built myself up to be this mysterious and powerful and alluring figure.
01:51:13
Speaker
and I'm really not any of those things. I love that read of it. i completely agree. Yeah. Especially because when he starts smashing the mirrors, he's singing, it's over now, the music of the night.
01:51:25
Speaker
I think it's ah it's such a powerful moment. I think it's really heartbreaking. um This is, yeah, very close to the end when he does that. But i agree. It's this idea, like, he he saw himself as this Don Juan type kind in Subway.
01:51:42
Speaker
And now he's like, okay, I just, this has gone gotten so out of hand. This is just not... my life anymore this is not where I thought any of this was going to go and uh he's kind of acknowledging that I guess yeah and I think that he is being so confronted with his own story like his own history and who who it's turned him into right and We have, you know, the moment, they're like really like the end of the movie, right, where Raul shows up and he Raul is basically like, you can kill me. I don't care what happens to me.
01:52:15
Speaker
Please let her go and like have compassion for her. And the fandom says the world held no compassion for me. And I mean, I think, unfortunately, this is like a very real thing about humans that like when we don't feel like people have compassion for us, it shuts our own compassion down because it has it almost has to be a two way street, right? Like it's so unsustainable to be compassionate when you feel targeted, when you feel ostracized, when you feel cut off and isolated in the way that the fandom is.
01:52:48
Speaker
that this is this is what happens. And that's not to say that that makes his behavior okay. And that's not to say that everybody who goes through that type of experience turns like evil, right? Like it's not that simple, but it is very hard to not be bitter when the world has treated you like you are.
01:53:08
Speaker
Yeah. and And also to your point earlier of like, he's he's alone down here. like He's so alone and it's so terrible. Not only is he alone, he's underground.
01:53:19
Speaker
Lord knows when the last time was he saw the sun. Like even when he goes with Christine to the ah graveyard or the cemetery, it's pretty desolate. It's not like the sun is out.
01:53:31
Speaker
Yeah. It's like a gloomy gray winter day evenings I'm like it's not it's not like he's stepping into the warm sunlight and no didn't even like think of that like I can't even picture that feel like he just disintegrated like it's it's so it's just that's that's what's so yeah heartbreaking again and there's this really emotional line that's one of my favorites so Raul is actually kind of half submerged in water in the lair
01:54:01
Speaker
And, uh, the phantom has tied him up to the, this great, this gate and they're singing. And it's like, one of my favorite moments. Like they're all kind of singing on top of each other, like with the past of the past, the point of no return music.
01:54:16
Speaker
Um, and Raul telling Christine, like, don't give into him. Like the phantom had said, like either you can, um, ah like marry me and then I'll let Raul go or if you don't want to be with me I'm gonna kill him and Raul's like do not like he hear either way you cannot win he says at one point or either way he has to win the Phantom has to win and at one point he has this beautiful line he just says I fought so hard to free you but it's like this quiet like singular moment and I always tear up like it's so
01:54:50
Speaker
beautiful i love that that moment in the song and his delivery is the reason it's so good like it's this very like melancholy moment because the same line delivered differently would feel possessive controlling like would just feel wrong but he has this just like devastated look on his face of like trying to hold on to hope that she will make what he thinks is the right decision, what probably like ultimately would be the right decision if those are really your only options, right? But but that she will make the decision to free herself.
01:55:29
Speaker
And it's just like, so it is, it's it's like heart, it's heartbreaking. And he just really sells it. And I hate, I hate to say it, but like, I i just like see, he's been in all these conjuring movies since then and I'm not even like a particularly like a fan of the Conjuring franchise so like this it's like it that doesn't even like loom large to me personally but it looms so large and like the the zeitgeist now that the whole time I'm watching him I'm like wow Ed Warren you're so nice which is not not true in real life of Ed Warren but I it is like it's it's funny because like ah in all of these moments I'm like how how is this you yeah
01:56:11
Speaker
I know. i think like around this time, one of the only other things I've seen him in is the movie Hard Candy with Elliot Page. I don't know if you've seen that. That one is a doozy. Oh my God. Right?
01:56:23
Speaker
that movie is so good. And like, oh my God. I like forgot that that was him. I really forgot that that was him in that movie until you said that. Holy shit. Yeah. So this is like a huge and even for Gerard Butler, this is a huge and phenomenally huge departure from both of their careers after.
01:56:43
Speaker
i just think it's so fascinating. But I know Patrick Wilson really likes to sing like during the COVID lockdowns, like there were a lot of like. live stream concerts and stuff like that in the Broadway community. And and he did one, I think he sang Think of Me, like he did like, um what's it called?
01:56:57
Speaker
Acoustic guitar version of Think of Me or or one of the songs. was so beautiful. um so I'm just like glad that at least he's kept that tied to music. And yeah, he he does, he just does every, I mean, everyone does like a really good job in this movie. I think particularly with delivery, like with delivery, I think with music, it's like, like you use used the phrase earlier, like acting through singing, right? Like you're not just singing, you're telling a story and you're you're having a conversation, you're having an interaction and a connection through the song. And so it's, yeah, he he really does such a good, he does, he in all of his parts, he does such a good job.
01:57:37
Speaker
So this is all happening and Raul is like, you know, make make the choice for your freedom, make the choice for your life. He has to win anyway. So like you also deserve to win basically is like the gist of his his position. and she goes to the Phantom and she kisses him and he like breaks down crying because obviously like You have to like, I think it's easy to forget how much we need human touch.
01:58:06
Speaker
And like, I am not a touch person. um i don't miss touch all that quickly. But we really need compassionate, gentle touch as humans. Like we need, need, it's not like we want it. We literally need it to be okay.
01:58:22
Speaker
And you have to, i I mean, something I was thinking about as you were talking about the isolation earlier was watching this movie in like a post-COVID world compared to watching it before i had like lived through a time where I was cut off from people like that and i remember and I think you'll probably appreciate this story so it's a little bit of a tangent but I'm gonna do it anyway I remember the first time I heard live music after lockdown. It was actually during lockdowns. It was outside.
01:58:53
Speaker
i was at the dog park with my dog and I heard like brass instruments. And i I like also context. I went to college in New Orleans. i' have like a very big fondness for brass bands. Like I love that.
01:59:08
Speaker
And I heard like brass instruments starting to play and you can really tell recording versus instrument. Like you can really tell, you can like feel, there's something you can like feel. And even a really good recording is not the same as someone being like in the room with you.
01:59:24
Speaker
And I called my dog over and like got her, you know, back on her leash. And I was was like, I need to go find out what is happening because like, holy shit. And and This like local brass band was playing in the park and they were standing, you know, all like in a row far away from each other. And people were in class, you know, there would be like two people here and two people, like everybody was, you know, distanced and masked.
01:59:49
Speaker
And I was like, so happy that I had just happened to be there because I wouldn't have known. And I like sat down and like within three minutes of sitting down, I started like hysterically crying because I was so overcome. And I just like love live music. Like I, it's like one of my favorite things. And I like could cry now thinking about how much this meant to me in that moment. And like,
02:00:14
Speaker
I think about that feeling translated to touch. Like I started crying, like I fully started crying. Like I wasn't like tearing up. I was like convulsing crying. I was like really crying. And so to think about like how overwhelming it would be for him to like receive a loving touch, even in this moment where he doesn't know what's going to happen.
02:00:34
Speaker
And that ends up being kind of his turning point, right? Because he hears the crowd coming And he basically says, never mind, you two get out of here and don't tell anyone about me. Don't tell them where I am Don't tell them what's going on down here and like just leave so that they don't find me and they like stop looking for me.
02:00:58
Speaker
and it's it's It seems very significant that the moment that he is able to see that, because I think there's a version of this where he, i mean, and I think he still does kind of sacrifice himself, but there is a there's a version where he's more defeatist and more like, if I go down, I'm taking everyone with me and you're not going to get away.
02:01:22
Speaker
And he has this like tender moment with her and is then able to have maybe a moment of clarity almost and and see that like this is not this is not the way. First of all, thank you for sharing that story about hearing the live music. I think that's so touching and so emotional.
02:01:40
Speaker
Of course, as a musician myself, I i love when people recognize the importance of first of all, human beings making and playing music, um but also that the live aspect and how ephemeral it is. And sometimes I see a concert or I see see musical or something and I'm like I want I want to keep this forever and ever and ever and I want to consume it and I want to have this as an object and then I have to remind myself that no the it's the same thing as being a human being the magic is that it's gonna end and so I just I kind of I love that story and then in terms of the phantom and the kiss that he shares with Christine I think I completely agree it's probably so overwhelming for him like sensory wise
02:02:25
Speaker
And I think what it seems like to me he's realizing is ah is ah everything you said, as well as the fact that Christine is clearly choosing to save Raoul, not herself.
02:02:37
Speaker
And that her love for Raoul is clearly so powerful that even though two seconds ago she said she hated the Phantom, she's now telling him, oh, no, actually, yeah, you're right. You know what i love you. I'm going kiss you. Let's be together.
02:02:49
Speaker
But he knows that it's because she wants to keep the deal that he said he'd make. to save Raoul. So I think that's probably really sad for him too. And and that's why he's like, you know what? I, I think I get it now. Like you love this guy lot. that mob is coming. i don't know what the fuck I'm about to do anymore. So how about we just cut our losses?
02:03:08
Speaker
I mean, it's just gotten so
Conclusion and The Phantom's Legacy
02:03:10
Speaker
far out of hand, right? Like, I think that he had this plan but didn't have the foresight or, like, maybe even just, like, the general human awareness from being isolated for so long to really think about, like, how this could ever...
02:03:26
Speaker
work or like how this could play out right like there isn't really there's no version of this that works out for him at this point like he I mean he's literally past the point of no return right like he has made this into something that is inescapable for him i think between all of that like the only option is to let them go like there's no other there's there is no other way Yeah, and then there's a really touching moment where he's basically in his bedroom sitting with this toy symbol monkey that we saw at the beginning of the film with the auction.
02:04:05
Speaker
And actually we see it in the flashback to when he was a child at the Circus or whatever, the traveling show. So he's had this this toy or whatever for a long time.
02:04:17
Speaker
And Christine walks in and you can see on the phantom's face, he has this tiny change in his facial expression where you can see he's he's starting to think that maybe she's actually coming back to be with him.
02:04:31
Speaker
And I only really noticed that change viscerally this week when I rewatched the movie. And it's so like deftly done, the acting choice there, because it is like a blink and you miss the change happening.
02:04:46
Speaker
um But you see in his eyes and his face, he's starting to smile because oh, maybe she actually changed her mind and she's going to be with me. But it's actually because she is coming to give the ring It's like not back to him because it's the ring that Raul gave to her when they got engaged, I guess, before Masquerade.
02:05:06
Speaker
During Masquerade, the Phantom steals it, like, ah takes it from her neck because she had it on a chain around her neck. And he said something like you belong to me at that point.
02:05:17
Speaker
And then I guess he gives it back to her while she's getting dressed up in the wedding gear. And so then she comes finally to give it back to him. So there's been like a lot of exchanges of this ring, but it's like a goodbye, right? It's a goodbye. It's a take this to remember me. And he says, Christine, I love you. And it's like, so he like his voice catches and it's really, really, really heartbreaking.
02:05:37
Speaker
Despite all this shit he's put everyone through and the people he's killed, his, you know, seeing him get his hopes up and then his like deflated atmosphere is really kind of tough to watch.
02:05:52
Speaker
it's a real reckoning for him, right? That like what what he thought was going on is not what was going on. I'm curious how he relates to the ring and like the idea of being given back the ring, like you said, it's kind of, the the ring keeps going back and forth, so it's like complicated, but how he feels about being given the ring as like a keepsake, as like a goodbye token.
02:06:15
Speaker
And the kind of simultaneous, Joy isn't exactly the right word, but like some positive notion of like, she doesn't want to abandon me fully. Like she wants to leave me with something, but then the, right. Like the devastation of like, but she's still going to leave me. Right. Like she's, she wants to leave me with something to remember her by, but she is still ultimately leaving.
02:06:40
Speaker
Yeah. And she lives, leaves quite romantically with Raul on the little gondola and they're singing all I ask of you again. yeah and then that's when he, kind of goes into a rage and breaks the mirrors. and It's really, and then the it's the music of the night music. It's so intense. and It's so dramatic. Not like cheesy at all, but it is very like a heightened drama moment. he kind of escapes again through the mirrors. There's some other kind of like layer behind the mirrors in this whole musical.
02:07:09
Speaker
ah So that moment is really, it's all just so sad. Like, I guess watching it, I do tear up at certain moments, but I'm just like, I'm just vibing with the whole movie. And then, but like putting it into words and like saying what is going on with my voice actually makes me feel like that it's so much more sad than I realized.
02:07:29
Speaker
Yeah. Cause you have like the glitz and glamor of musical and of opera and like all of these things kind of bolstering each moment. And then Yeah, and then you're, like, so left with just the story, right? and And then it's, like, when it's stripped down to its bones like that, it is it is a tragedy. It's, like, a romantic tragedy.
02:07:48
Speaker
And, you know, he breaks the mirrors and he flees. And I would like to hire the person who designed all of these underground layers for the opera house because, like, I would love to have so many secret passageways. Like, that's amazing.
02:07:59
Speaker
And then we're back with the old man who, like, at this point, I think is very clear that it's Raul. And... He goes to Christine's grave and he leaves like the symbol monkey.
02:08:12
Speaker
And while he is there, he sees a rose with a black ribbon tying... the engagement ring from all those years ago to the rose at the grave as well. So it appears that the fandom has also been to her grave, but the fandom is older than her. So how is he alive? But, um but yeah, the phantom has so true. Yeah. Yeah. But the fandom has left the row, like the rose and the ring on her grave.
02:08:39
Speaker
And the Phantom was there first. The Phantom was there first. And the level of yearning. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine like Raul's probably been there before. And what I like, I don't, I mean, whatever, like I'm sure not literally first, but like they both wanted to leave her something from this like time in her life. And the the Phantom was there first.
02:08:59
Speaker
Yeah. You can imagine how impactful that um part in everyone's life was. and before I forget I wanted to ask you do you know that there's a sequel musical to this musical no what wait get ready give me all the information so do I need to watch it is it like worth watching yes so I there's there's a pro shot I don't know I watched this I think during COVID lockdowns like um can't remember like what platform or anything you have to look it up it's called love never dies I do have to spoil a bit of it right now like I can't help myself but basically you can okay great I'm ready for it I won't spoil the ending because that's nice um it takes place I don't know five ten years after the the main story of the Phantom of the Opera and it
02:09:51
Speaker
takes place in New York. Madame Jury is there with Meg and she's like running a circus or something like that. um And Raoul and Christine, I think have gotten married and had a child and they go there. And I don't even remember why. i think k Christine wants to like get back into performing if I'm not mistaken. And lo and behold, the Phantom also appears.
02:10:15
Speaker
um at some point and it's basically it's like fan fiction that Andrew Lloyd Webber has created where like Christine and the Phantom like have an affair basically or it's revealed that they like kept in touch after the the the opera house like whatever going up in flames or or whatever happens and it's like kind of hilarious.
02:10:39
Speaker
I think this must be the only sequel musical ever because musicals don't usually get sequels. It's just not normal because you'd have to have usually traveled somewhere where you can physically see the musical first and then go see the sequel. Like, It just doesn't make sense as opposed to like film and television or films really.
02:11:00
Speaker
So the fact that the Phantom of the Opera is a musical is so freaking popular that it actually was feasible to create ah s sequel is kind of iconic.
02:11:11
Speaker
It's, it's not a great musical. I think it's worth watching just to continue like the lore of this franchise or whatever, but they have like a whole love song. Like it's really like, it pushes the narrative that,
02:11:23
Speaker
the Phantom and Christine should have ended up together. Wow, I love, I kind of love that. I love when, i love when authors make weird fan fiction of their own work.
02:11:35
Speaker
Like I, especially when the original work is like really, really good. There is a so, uh, You probably haven't seen it, but like you've heard of Rosemary's Baby, like I assume.
02:11:47
Speaker
So Rosemary's Baby is based on a book by Ira Levin. And the book is amazing. the book the The movie is like one of the most faithful adaptations of a book I've literally ever seen. There is like, I think, one scene that's different, like in the entire thing. It's like kind of amazing.
02:12:02
Speaker
And he wrote like 20 or 30 years later, a sequel to Rosemary's Baby. I'm going to spoil, I am going to spoil the end of this because I think it's fucking hilarious.
02:12:14
Speaker
It's not worth anything. I don't accept any of it as canon. It has an entire, like, not even subplot, like just plot of like, insect, like he's like in like, it's like grown up son and he's like in love with Rosemary.
02:12:27
Speaker
and it's, like, very, very weird, and it literally ends where she dreamed the whole thing. Like, not just the sequel, but, like, dreamed the events of the first book also.
02:12:40
Speaker
So it, like... That's bonkers! and And it came out, like, like debt like like a couple decades later, and and it's like, Rosemary's Baby is, like, a phenomenal book, and, like, this book, I loved reading i like loved every second of reading it, but it wasn't good, you know, and that wasn't why I was liking it.
02:12:57
Speaker
And it was like, it was like the same thing of like, why are we like negating this entire great story you told? And that like is kind of this a similar type of thing where it's like, I thought the whole point was like that this was like a toxic love and like, we're not supposed to like go for that. And then you're like, you were like, well, but they were kind of hot together. I'm gonna do a rewrite. That's very funny. Yeah, no, that is also hysterical, though. Wow.
02:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's I don't know. I mean, that's like the end of the movie. Yeah, it is just such a trip. And the other thing I noticed, maybe last year when I watched the movie at whatever point last year, and then this rewatch is that it's kind of campy as well. Would you agree with that?
02:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think it knows it's campy. but Yes, definitely. It definitely is campy. Well, and I think that, like, I think it's very hard to know at the time what will be campy, if that makes sense. Yeah. um And I think it has, like, entered, you know, it's, like, 20 years old.
02:14:03
Speaker
And I think it's, like, been, it's not so old, but it's, like, finally old enough that it can be campy and, like, can be appreciated for camp in a way that, like, is harder to do with things that have...
02:14:15
Speaker
been made more recently i think sometimes um but I yeah I think so it's the over the topness the even like the story feels campy and it's like level of cliche like it it's it's yeah absolutely absolutely I agree One of the things that I did think about, and I think I did mention a little bit already, is like, I i don't know that I like want a remake of the story per se, but I would be really curious how this story, whether like musical movie book, like what I doesn't, I think I haven't even thought that far into it, but just...
02:14:51
Speaker
I'm curious how it would evolve like in its next iteration and like how we would how we would treat it today, like how we would treat the Phantom today, how we would treat this love triangle situation today. like i'm just I'm just very curious, not to modernize it in the sense of like taking it and like setting it in this day and age, but modernize in the sense of like looking at this story of back then with ah with and with pressure.
02:15:16
Speaker
ideas Yeah, kind of on that note, what is interesting is there's going to be so I'd mentioned earlier that the Broadway version of the Phantom of the Opera has closed. It's still going on in the West End, but in kind of like a pared down version.
02:15:33
Speaker
But recently, Andrew Lloyd Webber basically announced that there's going to be an immersive experience off-Broadway called Masquerade, essentially based on the Phantom of the Opera, clearly, but, like, not actually a production of the Phantom of the Opera.
02:15:51
Speaker
There aren't that many details yet with, like, literally what this is, but it seems like it's going to be... um Like you have to like, ah so I follow Mickey Joe Theater on socials and YouTube. He's a great theater reviewer.
02:16:07
Speaker
And so he made a video talking about this. Basically, it's the tickets are like kind of pricey. You have to bring your own mask or buy one there. So you have to wear a mask. you have to wear like kind of like black or white.
02:16:18
Speaker
There's going to be like champagne, you have to be 18 plus like stuff like that, where you would imagine that you're like, i don't know, maybe walking through some theater and maybe in the in the vein of a haunted house, like things play out around you.
02:16:32
Speaker
So when the Tony Awards happened recently, like he was on the red carpet and then there was this like, quote unquote, opera ghost walking the red carpet with a mask and like dressed as the Phantom. And like, I don't think he like talked to anyone, but he was just like there.
02:16:47
Speaker
So it's ah a really big marketing thing is kind of underway for that. um So Phantom of the Opera on around Broadway in New York City is like kind of coming back so I'm just gonna be I'm like so fascinated once people start attending this like to hear what it's about that's really cool I I have always wanted to I like don't do haunted houses I know that's like probably surprising but I there're there I need the protection of it being behind a screen. like it's It's a really, really different experience to be scared of something that's physically there with you versus like something that is not. like like Just fundamentally, those are really different things.
02:17:31
Speaker
But... I have always wanted to, like, like i don't know what the right word is, like, attend immersive theater productions like that. And, like, ah those kind of, like, immersive experiences. I think that they sound so cool. And it's also, like, you could never read about it enough. You could never watch enough videos. that Like, you could never capture it. It would be totally... and And, like, to be fair, seeing a musical in person is, like, usually...
02:17:56
Speaker
more engaging than seeing it through a screen. But if it's like a high, you know, like if it's a high quality recording, you can kind of get most, most of it in a recording. And so like, it's a totally inaccessible and totally unattainable thing if you're not like actually there. And I'm just like, oh, I would love, there's no way that I'm going to go, but I would love to go to that. I would love, love, love to go to that. I know it does seem like so fascinating as a concept I don't know how successful it'll be but um I'll report back when I hear secondhand yeah yeah keep me and i mean even just as like more details get really I'm sure you'll see them before I do like if you get any more info about what what that's gonna be like I would love to hear about it because that sounds freaking awesome um
02:18:44
Speaker
so i So I know we talked about this kind of like at at various points throughout the story because it's like impossible not to, but I think like let's maybe...
02:18:55
Speaker
dissect a little bit of like the kind of classic ableism of the story and the way that like disabled and like visibly different characters are often portrayed in media like I think particularly in older media but kind of like still today and that this movie does use his like appearance as shorthand for evil that but there's the question of like the nature versus nurture question here of like would he have been bad if he had been treated well yeah I think what's actually one of the most fascinating things for me to think about the difference between an iteration that says that he's born with a a facial difference and one where he i guess gets it like post being born because then that I think that does have
02:19:46
Speaker
I think it just changes maybe like how people react to him in his world, like in society and that sort of thing. But I think it's it's a really reductive and harmful trope, right, to cast to to have a story where.
02:20:01
Speaker
a disabled person is um depicted as ah scary, especially, but then also any kind of evil, any kind of abusive controlling. And so it's a weird thing for me, like watching this nowadays where I'm like, oh, I don't know. I actually, I guess I feel kind of icky about the fact that, that there's this story where we're meant to be scared of someone whose face looks a bit different.
02:20:26
Speaker
That's why I do really like the musical still, because I think, I hope people see enough nuance in this iteration of the Phantom to still consider him to be a really fleshed out character.
02:20:39
Speaker
But it's really, it's really, um it's still pervasive today. Like, I think that, like, just that concept of being scared of disabled people in that way is, is really harmful.
02:20:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I do think that there is a greater like stigma and greater response to people with facial differences, particularly like relative to like limb differences or other disability. like i think I think that there is like a particular response to facial differences that is maybe bigger than other things. And so I think that's obviously something that's important to, you know, name.
02:21:17
Speaker
And I think it does raise a little bit of the question of, like, does he need to have any visible differences? I mean, i think particularly, i think less less so in the musical version, but, like, with the backstory of the silent film where he had been escaped like an escaped prisoner, right? Like, you you kind of don't need him to look scary because he's a fugitive.
02:21:41
Speaker
You know what I mean? He needs to be hidden and if he's a fugitive who loves music, what like there are a lot of ways that that could play out that don't require that that same element. And so I guess, yeah, like I wonder how this works without that element. And I think that it would. i think that like you would have to finagle it, but I think it actually is like quite workable like without without that being a piece i agree because you could in fact you could even keep the mask because what what it could just easily be is like you said like a fugitive and maybe it's someone who's famous enough that everyone has like seen the person's face in the papers let's say so then you can still get the phantom having to wear a mask so that people don't know what he looks like when they see him and everything else would just stay the same so yeah i think i it's obviously a product of its time the
02:22:33
Speaker
the story having been originated in 1910 or thereabouts, the the silent film 1925, you know, it's hard to expect more from that time period.
02:22:45
Speaker
But certainly if there's any kind of reimagining in the future, I think they can definitely go that route because like you said, like it's not really that necessary for him to have a facial difference. Like everything else can kind of stay the same.
02:22:59
Speaker
Or i I guess I also wonder if there would it be, you know, like with Wicked right now, with Wicked part two coming out, there's discussion about how they're going to handle Nessa Rose's character and like what,
02:23:11
Speaker
And it sounds like they're trying to maintain the point but make changes to add nuance and and like reduce some of that kind of stereotyping and of disabled characters. And so I'm also even kind of like, if they really wanted to include that element as like a part of this classic story, like, is there a way to have...
02:23:33
Speaker
more moments where it is made more clear that like the reason you're scary is your behavior they do say it in the in the musical but like i i wonder if there's more ways to drill that in more ways to like to expand on that maybe give more time to that piece of the story and less time to something i don't know what less time to like what else but but to give that more room to breathe and maybe have like patrons of the opera who have visible differences or performers like in the opera who have visible, like something to start breaking down that wall of like, I am this way because of my appearance, like, right. i Like, like, like something to get in between.
02:24:13
Speaker
I think that there's like different things that that could look like, but I think there, yeah, like it's, it needs to, it needs something, right. Like it needs something to be kind of taken into 2025 and like, just, yeah.
02:24:25
Speaker
and just round it out, let's say. You're so right. i do actually, now that you've said that, it actually makes lot more sense maybe to keep him with his facial difference, to have that kind of representation, but like you said, have other people with facial differences so that it's very clear to everyone that this is not what it's about, that It doesn't really matter if you have a facial difference. It's more about his behavior. Cause also like, not that I'm like a fan of calling someone a fugitive, like fuck prisons and all that. Right. So it's hard to. like swear about already
02:24:59
Speaker
That's already like plenuous and weird territory. um Yeah. So maybe actually that's so smart and that's so, that would actually be really beautiful um to have more diversity in what people look like in a future iteration.
02:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, because I think that that's another piece of this, right? And i I don't think that this part of it requires the facial difference, but I think that we as humans like the story of a man-made monster.
02:25:26
Speaker
um We like the story of someone who has been treated as a monster and has therefore become one. We we like that. There is something that appeals to us about that because we keep on revisiting it, right? Like just over and over and over again. But we keep on revisiting that type of story. And I think i think that actually...
02:25:47
Speaker
i I should say I want to think that that actually comes from a good place, right? Because ultimately, the moral ah for like, what presence there is of a moral in a story like that is like that we need to be good to each other, because we can turn each other bad, right? I hate to like use good and bad to describe people. But like, like, these are oversimplified stories, because that's how we take them in.
02:26:11
Speaker
Right. And there is something to be said for our desire to clarify to ourselves and to the world that the way that we treat people matters. And that if we want people to be able to show up as like the best version of themselves, that we have to treat them as the best version of themselves. And like I said, I don't think that part really requires the facial difference.
02:26:35
Speaker
to get across. Like I think that like i said, that's a story we keep coming back to in a million different forms. But I do think that it's an important story. I think that's an important story. And I think that this was one way of exploring it that probably made sense for the time that might make less sense now. But Like there's just still a lot of stuff in there that is very timeless and like a lesson that we continue to need, I think, as humans that like we can turn people into monsters. And I don't really believe that people are monsters. I think like when we see, you know, i think like particularly with like serial killers and stuff, right? Like we get a lot of that like language thrown around and
02:27:13
Speaker
I try to stay away from like like viewing people in that way even who have maybe done monstrous things but I think that like we as humans continue to need the reminder that like you will turn someone into a monster absolutely yeah I completely agree um yeah that was beautifully said I have one thing I want to talk about that's kind of not as related to the musical because they did make a change for the musical, but I find it really interesting that the opera that they're doing at the beginning is Faust.
02:27:49
Speaker
um I don't know anything about Hannibal, which is what they changed it to, so like I have no idea if this holds true, but um the reason that i I would like to just touch on it for a second is because this part is true in the in the musical, but...
02:28:02
Speaker
Christine is really being faced with like a Faustian bargain, right? Like in a really big way where it is like, you can have all the wisdom of music and all the knowledge of music and all the career and all of the like, right? Because he like he's the angel of music. He can teach her better than anyone else and like give her more to her career than anyone else but like she would have to sacrifice her love her life her freedom so she is like it is very much like ah like we start with Faust and end with Faust right like we start there with them doing this opera and then we end there with her being given this choice of like you could probably be the best opera singer that this city has ever seen but you're going to do it with me and you're going to do it alone and isolated
02:28:44
Speaker
I have never thought of that. I love that. That's so true. That is so true. Yeah, I don't even know that much. I don't even know what the Hannibal opera necessarily entails. It's that all of these choices, like Faust, Hannibal, Don Juan, like it's all very hell adjacent, which I just think is a really cool choice.
02:29:02
Speaker
But that's so true. She really does have this Faustian bargain. And yeah, again, it really brings me back to the Red Shoes. I think it's extremely similar. um If ever you watch it let me know.
02:29:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think the parallels are pretty huge there. And I think that something interesting is that in a way, the Faustian bargain is kind of subverted by her decision, right? Because she, from the outside, could be viewed as choosing her career, but what she's really choosing is to save the person she loves, right? Yeah.
02:29:34
Speaker
And I think that, like, it would be easy for somebody who's not engaged with the depth of character to view it as her choosing her career and, like, making this deal with the devil. But what she's really doing is, like,
02:29:47
Speaker
trying to save somebody. i think ah similarly um to what I said about like, oh, there's a secret third option where she could like go move somewhere else with Raoul and still sing opera.
02:29:57
Speaker
There's like a secret third option of like how a Faustian bargain could resolve itself because like people's people's motives are so complicated, right? and And it's like yet another thing that oversimplifies human decision making.
02:30:11
Speaker
in a way that it just isn't, right? I mean, I think like that the concept right of a Faustian bargain is like success for soul, right? like that they yeah it's you know and Sometimes it's your soul, sometimes it's your freedom, like right? It like is a lot of things, but that's what it comes down to. And I think particularly in like a capitalist world, success is survival, right? Success might mean your family gets to be okay, right? like there's There's a lot of kind of complicated stuff that goes into that. That's not usually what's explored in those stories, right? But I think that that is how this story does kind of subvert the very thing that it's exploring in a way that I find pretty interesting.
02:30:48
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many layers, actually, to this story that is that's like so fascinating to explore and the story within a story within a story and the meta analysis and all of that. yeah I love that idea of like, she can just like go sing somewhere else.
02:31:04
Speaker
I guess we don't really technically know in the story proper of the Phantom of the Opera. We don't get a sense of what happens to Raoul and Christine after. So maybe we can just imagine that she has a successful career after.
02:31:19
Speaker
Yeah, they do the secret third thing afterwards. thanks After the credits roll. But I mean, i like, I just like want to thank you for proposing this idea. I don't think it would have occurred to me. But I i mean, for what it's worth, I do think that this has like a lot of horror elements in it. Like, like.
02:31:38
Speaker
absolutely undeniably and it has been really fun to revisit like I said I haven't seen it since I was pretty like a pretty little kid I had I seen the play more like the live musical more recently but still probably 15 years like still a long time ago and it was just like it was such a delight to revisit this movie and then obviously it was really fun to watch it with the expectation of discussion, right? Because like like I said, we watch things like differently when we know that we're going to sit down and get into the weeds on it. And of course, we've been recording now for three for three hours, which I should have anticipated because i could probably still talk about this for three more hours. I think it would get repetitive, but I would be still having fun.
02:32:21
Speaker
um But yeah, so thank you for this idea because this has been really, really fun to get into. i can't believe I can't believe someone is thanking me for this. Like, I can't believe it because to me, it's like, I have never, like every time I've mentioned, you know, the Phantom of the Operative People, I get so scared because I know I'm always on the brink of like, just talking for 10 hours and like, you know, alienating people.
02:32:46
Speaker
um So like, when you were, when you agreed to do this, I was like, wait, I've actually, tricked someone into letting me talk about my hyper fixation like what this has been like incredible truly like I'm just sitting here like smiling I'm i'm so happy we did this