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Responding to Inquiries
58 Plays1 year ago
This week Al, Victoria, and Will talk about handling inquiries - especially when they're lowball budgets, or don't provide enough information to actually give a quote. This discussion stems from a recent inquiry Will had that did not have a budget, and was fishing for a deal.
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Transcript
Nonprofit vs Not Profitable
00:00:00
Speaker
No, you're not a nonprofit. You're a not profitable. There's a difference.
Handling Inquiries and Lowball Offers
00:00:12
Speaker
So this week we're talking about how to respond to inquiries, especially when they're lowball offers or they don't give you enough information and they want to quote. How do you handle that? In perpetuity. Yes. Yeah. Just give that away.
00:00:29
Speaker
forever. So how do we handle that? The reason I'm bringing this topic up is I had this issue come up at the beginning of the month. Let me just read.
00:00:42
Speaker
Oh, please read. Please. So I got a contact from my web form on my website that they were looking for an audition for imaging for their internet classic rock station.
Communicating Pricing with Clients
00:00:53
Speaker
I said, cool. That sounds great. I responded. I said, you know, I'd love to give you a custom sample, but I'm away from the studio till Monday because I was in Florida that week. You know, I've got my travel stuff with so I could do it, but it's not going to be quite the same as what you would get normally. So if you can wait, I'd rather do it when I get home. But either way, I'm definitely interested.
00:01:10
Speaker
They asked about pricing. I said pricing is based around your needs and the market size.
00:01:14
Speaker
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'd need more info to quote any actual rates. And, you know, I've got some flexibility. Good responses, by the way. Those are the answers that you should give. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I responded pretty quickly, I think. Let's see. The email came in at 702, and I responded at 748. Nice. And I'm not normally up that early. So that's really set up. Every professional like. Profesh. Keep it profesh.
Nonprofit Operations and Misconceptions
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, so the email I got back said we'd prefer to wait till Monday. Okay, great. Cool. They wanted it for a internet station and they brand it as if it's an actual FM station, even though it's not. They use actual call letters, which they probably shouldn't do, but they do, but they're not currently in use as far as I can tell.
00:02:00
Speaker
I think maybe they're hoping to eventually turn it into an FM station. I don't know, doesn't matter. But they want it to sound like FM. They want the experience to feel like that. So the same kind of imaging that you would hear on the air, that's what they want on their internet station. And they said, we're a nonprofit internet radio group that doesn't make much of a profit off our stations. So we're hoping to be able to work with you for our internet radio stuff. So an ad for your services and instantly recognize you as something which I'm not.
00:02:32
Speaker
So feel as if you're the best person to go to for our rock formats. Great. I'm glad you thought that I was the person I'm not and that I can do
Dealing with Unrealistic Client Budgets
00:02:40
Speaker
the job for you. That's wonderful. Now were they asking for produced spots or? I was gonna ask that too, yeah. No.
00:02:47
Speaker
Let me look, here's a short custom demo script that you can send. I'd prefer that it isn't produced so that we can judge whether or not our VST plugins that are specific to our sound will work with your equipment. Wow. Okay. We might decide later on after the purchase process that we want you to produce the imaging, but it depends on how much of an extra charge it costs to do that. Now, keep in mind, they said they were nonprofit.
00:03:16
Speaker
Since we only really bring in around $75 a month in total from the 12 internet stations that we run, and we're entirely commercial free except for bartering for syndicated shows, I'm hoping we can get a good deal for your services as we only really need a small amount of liners at a time.
00:03:33
Speaker
We're not really looking for anything too crazy or professional as we will reuse your liners for other productions over the next four or five months before coming back for additional liners to make new productions. Wait a minute. We do this a lot just so that our stations sound fresh, but we don't need a lot of custom stuff since we already utilize Benstown branding. We just don't pay for their VO team. We only have access to their raw imaging library. Oh.
00:03:57
Speaker
They've been using a guy from Fiverr. All the productions use a guy we hired on Fiverr three years ago, and we're looking to upgrade our productions. Okay. So wait, you sound like a guy, but how did she say it? You sounded like a guy who could do... They instantly recognized me as Cumulus Media's classic rock and alternative voice.
00:04:21
Speaker
Which I am not. Right. But thank you? But thank you, yes. Absolutely, thank you. But then pay me.
Setting Appropriate Rates for Voice Work
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they previously worked with someone from Fiverr and probably paid him five bucks. And they're hoping to get a good deal with me because they're a non-profit, are they though? They bring in around $75 a month in total from 12 internet stations.
00:04:46
Speaker
No, you're not a nonprofit. You're a not profitable. There's a difference. Yeah. You have no income based on your business model. So I said, and I'm going to put this out there, which whatever. I don't normally put out rate quotes, but this is like the bottom typically. So it goes up from here usually.
00:05:08
Speaker
This is my response verbatim. My typical bottom line deal is $150 per month for one station. I could consider a slightly cheaper quarterly arrangement, but if you don't have a budget to work with, this might just not be a good fit at this time. We may be too far apart on budget for this to be a viable option.
00:05:24
Speaker
Typically, imaging VO is priced with a monthly retainer that includes end pages per month. But what you're really paying for isn't the number of pages voiced, but rather licensed to use the voice during the period that's been paid for. And I don't generally consider any straight bio deals as to ensure exclusivity within a market, which is part of my offering. Obviously, that doesn't entirely apply to internet, but still. Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, I need to know that anyone using my voice for their stations imaging is actively licensing it or having stopped paying Has removed my voice from their station so that you know regular terrestrial broadcast I could do a different station in that market sure would love to work with you if the numbers work But it sounds like we're gonna be pretty far apart And it wouldn't be fair to my existing clients if I were to work for far less for you, right? And I haven't heard
Client Misrepresentation and Audition Misuse
00:06:10
Speaker
anything back. Oh, that was gonna be my question But seriously the idea that they've been reusing someone else's
00:06:17
Speaker
You know even sure I I don't even care where they got him fiber or not the idea that they're just continuing to use that because they have it shows you how they're going to use your voice once they get it so to me that's the no your business practice already is just
00:06:35
Speaker
Yeah, so after reading through this and then misrepresenting themselves as a non-profit and then whatever, I didn't want to do a custom audition for them as I normally would because there was nothing giving me confidence that they weren't just going to take what I sent them and use it anyway. Sure. That's a shame.
00:06:55
Speaker
And hopefully that's not true, but that's the impression that I got based on how they've represented themselves here. Well, they didn't give you anything not to think that way. Now, that said, your issue is sort of irrelevant here, Victoria, because with imaging it's a little bit different.
00:07:12
Speaker
As long as they're paying, so if you do a buyout, which this would be, they own it. They can do what they want with it forever. So it's unlimited cut downs and edits? Yeah. Okay. All right. Imaging is typically you're just giving a bunch of different reads of lines and they'll mix and match and do whatever they want. And so if you've done like the call letters or the frequency in the call letters,
00:07:35
Speaker
a bunch of different ways, they're going to remix that and do it a bunch of different ways forever. That's normal. That's imaging. That's normal. Typically though, with most imaging deals, they're paying a retainer and so they're licensing your voice. So yes, they've got it on file. They can do whatever they want with what's on file as long as they keep paying.
Understanding Imaging Deals and Retainers
00:07:55
Speaker
Once they stop paying, they have to remove everything with your voice from the station. That's usually the contract that you do. That's where I was coming from.
00:08:02
Speaker
Typically, with imaging that the retainer is the deal and they can use whatever they've got from the most recent read or any read previous, as long as they're paying that talent, the retainer fee monthly or whatever the contract stipulates. But if you've got a full buyout, then it's a full buyout. They just own it in perpetuity and they can do whatever they want. How do you arrange the retainer fee? Is that contract that you put on for the retainer? Is that your paperwork or theirs? Yeah, it's mine.
00:08:29
Speaker
I haven't booked any imaging stuff through an agent, so it would be a little bit different there, but it would just mean numbers are bigger in this part. And who doesn't like bigger numbers? The client, I suppose. Exactly. When you get those inquiries, how often, I can only speak to myself, but how often do you see, it's just a quick, because you mentioned it with the email, it's just quick. It's so easy.
00:08:58
Speaker
All the time, telling me how easy my job is. Or they want to pay me per word. I only do per project. I put that out there right away. I don't do per word. I do per project. Or per line. Or per minute.
Project-Based Payments vs Per-Word Rates
00:09:15
Speaker
Not interested. I mean, there is an exception, but I don't do audiobooks. You know, PFH, per finished hour. That's totally different.
00:09:26
Speaker
That is a different genre, different medium, however you want to classify it. And a whole lot more work. So it's not just quick. Long form narration, right? Yeah. But it's really quick. So they think like, if I throw you $10, can you read it? No. Yes. Yes, I could. I could. But I'm not going to.
00:09:45
Speaker
but I'm not recording it, I'm just reading it. To record it, it's a whole lot more. Well, and the same thing, and then they want a directed session. It's like, not for that, you're not. No, directed session is another fee, at least for mine, unless it's baked in into the quote.
00:10:00
Speaker
See, I should probably start charging separate for those, but I don't, because I enjoy them. And the way I look at it is, if I do a directed session versus self-directed, I'm not going to have all the back and forth that I might get with a self-directed if they don't like what I gave them the first time, because we'll just figure it out on the fly, right? If you do a directed session, there's usually not retakes, because they figured it out during the session.
00:10:26
Speaker
true, but I actually prefer not having to do the directed session for certain, especially for corporate because it's long form anyway. Oh, sure. Yeah. I would want to do it for long form. Yeah. So something for a corporate narration, if it's like over two minutes, no, I'm not going to do a directed session. And I've had so many that want to, like,
00:10:45
Speaker
No, because they're gonna stop on every sentence, you know, there'll be no flow and usually I like to do that type of work late at night when I don't have a landscaper outside or Do you know even so I've got the space sometimes it just timing is awful, right? So that's why a directed session for me is separate because I have
Directed Sessions and Client Satisfaction
00:11:06
Speaker
to have a life outside the booth Yeah, so it's my time you have to look at it as your time
00:11:11
Speaker
Right. My corporate I've got an account that I work for in out of Norway.
00:11:16
Speaker
And we always do directed sessions. We work them out 10 o'clock in the morning. And I enjoy it because it's usually just maybe a three minute read. And like Will says, we work out all the details on the fly and you never have any retakes. You never have them come back with any changes. So I enjoy those. And because they're so far away, you'd have the risk of odd hours in this kind of work. You get rid of all of them. True. Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
But I do have like, I will include if it's a new client, I include like a 15-minute mood tone set. Just so I have, you know, that we can establish kind of that connection. What are you looking for? Okay, and then I might give them a sample like me want it like this or that. Then, you know, 15 minutes is helpful for everybody. But a full directed session, that's my time. I have to charge for that. So.
00:12:10
Speaker
Well, I guess I don't get a whole lot of inquiries right now because most everything I'm doing is through my agent. I think it's on the pay to plays where you're asked frequently or they give you the budget where it'll say 350 to 650.
00:12:25
Speaker
I'm like, what are you? Okay, where do you? Okay, then it's 650. Oh, yeah. I usually go to the high end of it.
Issues with Lowball Offers and Usage Details
00:12:31
Speaker
Or not at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're giving me a range, why am I going to go at the bottom of your range? Right. Exactly. If your budget is this to this, well, you're probably still low balling me, so it's the high end, especially considering the platform has probably taken 20%.
00:12:46
Speaker
Sure. Well, why would you give away 20% of the low end? Right, right. Yeah, I don't do pay to play anyway anymore. But yeah, you see it a lot on those words, you know, give us a quote, or, you know, give us the thing where here's the script and our budgets this or just give us a quote, we don't have a budget set. Well, they're probably a nonprofit. I don't know what you're using. Yeah, probably. I'm not making money. Therefore, I'm nonprofit, right?
00:13:15
Speaker
But they don't tell you the usage, they don't tell you where or how long it's gonna be used, if it's broadcast or online, if it's paid placement or not. All the details you need to actually give a quote, nobody gives you that. How the hell do you quote that? It's a little bit anxiety inducing when you get that, because you're like, well, I need more information. And sometimes you're not gonna, to me, when they don't come back with that information, then it wasn't worth that pursuit to begin with.
00:13:43
Speaker
You really want to have top-notch talent, people who are trained and know what they're doing to do this work, you have to pay for that. You're not just paying for the minute, you're paying for our knowledge. And there's people supposedly making a lot of money on Fiverr, and that's fine. But why put it out for everyone?
Working for Experience: Free or Low Cost
00:14:05
Speaker
when you know what you're going to get on that platform. I've seen on, I also like, well, graduated from pay to place, but you see the, it's a student project, no budget. Is it really? I mean, if it is and it's interesting, I might do it. But for the most part, I turned off all the no budget stuff. I would just see it. Let's talk about that really quickly though, because even in the on-camera world, there's that thing, copy credit meals.
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for a lot of folks that are starting off in voiceover. They might consider doing a project for free I know my first audio book. I did not charge for and thank heavens. I listened back to it like oh girl But it was the first time first time for everything and it was you know kind of a new let me try this out kind of thing and then I realized I don't like it and I don't like the end product either, but it's the idea that
00:14:59
Speaker
Yes, there might be a project that you're willing to work on for less when you're starting, because then you can say, hey, I booked it.
00:15:06
Speaker
No one needs to know what you, but just make sure that when you start off and you book something, it's not for like a national commercial or something that you should be making good money on. In perpetuity, that's going to be a social media thing. Make sure it's an actual student project for what it's worth. I did do a master's thesis student project and when they first reached out to me, they had a $50 budget and I was like, thank you. However,
00:15:37
Speaker
I can't do it. It's, I appreciate it. And they wanted to record, you know, the whole session and everything is like, thank you. Do you know, six months down the line, they sent me another, hey, we got our SAG paperwork.
00:15:50
Speaker
would you be willing to do it for? And they tripled the price. So it wasn't a lot of money, but now it was a union project. It was still student, right? It wasn't a lot of pay, but they got it all, and they decided, no, we want to make this next level for whatever purpose, because I think this particular individual wants to be a filmmaker.
00:16:15
Speaker
They had a voiceover role in it, and it was a union, so I'm like, sweet. That was an exception. And because Victoria books all the time. And they wanted her. No, no. They came back to you. It was crazy that they came back. They contacted you directly the first time? Mm-hmm.
00:16:35
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. And I didn't know where that came from. They must have heard your demo or something somewhere. Something. I'm trying to think if it came from. I do have free pay to play profiles, but I do not pay to be on them. But you can still have a profile. I think that's important for anybody starting off. You can have a free and they can send you a message and you can respond back to them. That's on Voice123. I also have a free profile and I've booked work on voices.com.
00:17:05
Speaker
years ago for a huge client that, yeah, they took their 20%. Thanks, voices. Not really. But I didn't pay for it because the client reached out to me directly. Right.
00:17:17
Speaker
You know, there's advantages. They're nice, but, you know, they're not necessary because they're on that platform. They're probably not going to pay you well. However, Will, you've had an exception to that role. I've also had exceptions where they turn into repeat clients that I've had where I keep getting more. Then it makes sense. But for the most part, they've just really started, you know, the toilet bowl is swirling.
00:17:42
Speaker
garbage. It used to be the place to book work, especially starting off, especially just trying to get your name out there and doing the marketing, right? It was a great way to start off. But I think it's changed. Their algorithms changed, their platforms have changed, their fee structures have changed. So they're not what they used to be either. And guess what?
00:18:06
Speaker
all three of us here were not what we used to be either when we first started using them. But, you know.
Challenges of Pay-to-Play Platforms
00:18:13
Speaker
I had somebody just this year, in fact, came to me from something I had auditioned for last year on Voice 1, 2, 3, which was when I had re-upped after like 11 months.
00:18:26
Speaker
at the second highest tier for Q1, and then a month later was in the bottom 10% and couldn't get anything. So that was a total waste of money. But I had auditioned for this January of last year and didn't book it, but they sent me a message and said they really liked my audition, but they went with somebody else.
00:18:45
Speaker
Okay, whatever. That's cool. And I did get a like for it, so it helped. He contacted me again this year in January, said, we're doing it again and I need your voice. And it's this big rock concert that happens in Netherlands in the fall. Beautiful. And it was a fun kind of character ring mastery thing.
00:19:10
Speaker
So that was fun. And then my other, my other big thing from voice one, two, three was that's where my first SAG job came from. And it wasn't listed as a SAG job, but they called three months after I auditioned and they said, well, the client finally got back to us and they want you. So, um, this is going to be a SAG job. Is that okay? Uh, yeah.
00:19:35
Speaker
I said, I'm not SAG, so we'll have to Taft Hartley, is that okay? And they said, yeah. And that job keeps paying. That was that. And that job has renewed every year since, and that was like three years ago. Yeah. Nice. Fabulous. So that is still to date the single highest paid job I've done because it's renewed multiple times. Sure. And it's for 3M, so it's not like some little small potatoes thing. Now, does it renew with the 5% a year or something like that? No, because it's not a broadcast thing.
00:20:05
Speaker
Well, I'm paid directly because it was a SAG job. So I get paid directly from the Paymaster. They just send me a check every year. V123 only takes something when they use their payment system, I think, which is newish, and I've never had to use that. So the client can determine whether or not to use their Paymaster system that they have at V123 or pay you directly, which is better.
00:20:33
Speaker
So I don't think they're required to use their paymasters. I haven't been on forever, so I don't know. Yeah, no, it's optional. And it's an escrow system that they can optionally use. Did they ask you your rates for this? Do you remember? Or was it like they already had it established because it was a SAG project? It was a SAG project, yeah. So it was the SAG low budget agreement, but the original was $1,500, I think. And the renewals have been $1,250. Nice.
00:21:00
Speaker
So I think the original included a fee for the session.
00:21:03
Speaker
Oh, that makes, yeah, so I have one regional, also a SAG job, they renewed, but they do a plus, I think it's a plus 20%. So every year they renew, it's higher. But is that paid placement? You said regional, so it's broadcast or something, right? It's regional, it's broadcast. They use it both radio and television. Okay. So that's why there's the increase. In the state of Texas, yeah. Because you're maintaining a conflict. Yes, exactly.
00:21:33
Speaker
That's right. Thank you. Mine is not paid placement, so there's no increase. But it's still... It's still nice money. 1200 bucks. Thank you. Every year, as long as they renew. Yeah, thank you. I suspect that'll go on for another several years. Right. Because it's a promotional video about a specific product. So as long as that product exists, in theory, they're going to keep doing it unless they rebrand it.
00:22:00
Speaker
I think of that every guy, every Halloween with a Geico commercial with the saw, the guy with all the saws. Have you seen this? It's so good. It's like one of my favorite because it's so sarcastic. I love it. But they've played that thing for at least the past five years.
00:22:17
Speaker
I'm like, I feel so good for those actors. And I'm like, oh, you guys get those renewal checks, man. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because it's amazing because that is like they've been playing that commercial forever. But when it comes to asking about your rates, I mean, a lot of times I'm flustering to like try to get it right. And it's all about that usage, right? Like how are you using it?
00:22:40
Speaker
And driving that point home, sometimes you have to school your client. You have to let them know, well, here's the reason why it's that way. And if you want to use my voice because you're licensing the usage of my voice, because that is super important for them to understand. A lot of times they don't understand that until you're like, well,
Negotiating and Understanding Usage Rights
00:22:58
Speaker
exactly.
00:22:58
Speaker
I was just going to say that. You have to understand, you know, if you're Pepsi and then Coca-Cola comes to me and they want that, but you've only paid me like $100 for your thing, and Coca-Cola now wants me to be the spokesperson, but I've got you in perpetuity, Pepsi. That's not going to work well when Coca-Cola wants me to be their spokesperson for $300,000 for the year.
00:23:20
Speaker
Right. And I'm stuck with my $100 that I settled on for Pepsi. Are you kidding me? I'm not trying to throw Pepsi under the bus. It probably wouldn't be Pepsi. It would be Bob's Bubbles or something. Right. But to think that they would have my... I don't want to have it stuck in perpetuity for some small company that could then get conflict. Sure. That's why it's important for people to understand how pricing works, specifically for talent to understand how pricing works. Yeah.
00:23:49
Speaker
Don't give your voice away. Clients aren't going to understand. Or they will, but they're hoping you don't. Yeah, yeah. But ideally, let's assume that not everybody is out to screw you. The safe assumption is that most clients probably don't understand how pricing works.
00:24:05
Speaker
True. Because it's complicated, right? And I wish that I could list a rate card, but it's too complicated. So I don't. I'm not going to try because there's so much that is dependent on how and where it's used and for how long, you can't just put that in a rate card. You know, GVAA has done a great job with it, but that's complicated. You can't just point somebody at that and go, here, here's how it works. They're going to go, what? No, it makes us go, what?
00:24:31
Speaker
I mean, the important part to know is if it's going to be paid placement online, radio, TV, anywhere, if it's paid to be there, to get in front of eyes, you need to be getting paid for the duration of time that it's running. And if they stop paying you, they have to stop using it. Period. Always. Everywhere. Because if it's paid placement, you have a conflict in that thing. Even if they didn't say, oh, this is conflict in sporting equipment or
00:24:59
Speaker
Whatever, you know, if you do something for some little startup, you know, pickleball glove or something, whatever. And I know there aren't gloves in pickleball, but whatever.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, a sports ball, you know, but then some major whatever tennis racket company comes along and wants you to be the new voice because they, for whatever reason, they don't want Andre Agassi anymore. Okay. That doesn't make sense, but okay. You can't do it because you have a conflict in sporting goods. Yep.
00:25:32
Speaker
And because you're stupid and took that job in perpetuity for 300 bucks, you can never do something in sporting goods again because you got that as long as it's running. But you don't know if it's running or not because you gave them, you gave them what market is running. So two things, make sure that is in. So sometimes there are clients that I've worked with overseas, they don't have contracts.
00:25:53
Speaker
So I make sure it's in an email and it's also on the invoice, specifically stating what I provided them as well as the usage. So that way, should it come head to head, I've got it in writing.
00:26:11
Speaker
they pay the invoice, they've seen the email because I've got email tracking, so I can tell, did my client see it? Yes, they did. So that's helpful. Ideally, you want a contract. You do. So I had a French company, lovely, lovely people, but they did not understand why I didn't want to be the voice of their toy and also it would be on paid advertising as well as on Amazon using my voice.
Voice Usage for Products vs Advertising
00:26:40
Speaker
advertising the toy. Like those are separate things. I can be your toy voice for X amount. If you want to use my voice in advertising, that's a separate thing altogether. Just because I'm part of the toy doesn't mean you can use it wherever you want, wherever that toy appears. That's important. And they didn't get it until I said, well, look,
00:27:02
Speaker
if Fisher-Price or Mattel or another large company came to me and said, we want your voice for this. I'm now out of that category because you used me for everything forever. They wanted me to sign it off in perpetuity.
00:27:17
Speaker
And that was a little bit of a language barrier, but also understanding usage. So that's why I'm saying sometimes we do have to educate our clients to let them know, well, this is how this works. Yeah, we keep saying the same word in perpetuity.
00:27:34
Speaker
That means forever. Inforever, yes. If that's even mentioned or inferred, run, or at least start the education process. And a lot of times, especially in on-camera stuff where you see that word is in conjunction with, what does it say, all known formats of media, or all forms of media throughout the known universe known or unknown.
Perpetual Rights Agreements Warning
00:27:57
Speaker
So that means forever in any format, forever. And I literally had my wonderful agent
00:28:04
Speaker
Take that language out. It basically said they had the rights to use my image, the rights to use my voice in any way, shape or form they wanted to forever and ever and ever. And it is supposed to be a corporate internal video. It's a long time. Which by the way, that's a long time, but no, which by the way, all forms of media known or unknown throughout the known universe would also include AI. Yes. Don't be afraid to educate the inquiries, people.
00:28:33
Speaker
Don't be afraid to say no to an inquiry. Just do your homework, make sure that you're not underselling yourself, and it is okay to say no.
00:28:42
Speaker
Don't give away the farm. There will always be another job and protect yourself. Protect yourself. You know, ultimately that's what it comes down to is getting paid your worth and protecting yourself so you can continue to do business and not be stuck in a situation where you've sold your voice to some AI model where now you don't have ownership of your voice anymore or
00:29:04
Speaker
You've done some major category or several major categories of ad stuff in perpetuity on a pay-to-play, and now you can't do those categories anymore. And you've just screwed yourself out of potentially millions of dollars of value. And when you play pickleball, always wear your glove. Yes, don't forget your pickleball glove. Excellent. Perfect way to end the podcast, Al. I told you I don't know the sports ball.