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Appeasement, Fawning & the Nervous System
766 Plays6 days ago
In this episode of Wired for Connection, Travis Goodman, LMFT sits down with trauma therapist, author, podcaster, and trainer Verena König to explore fawning, appeasement, people-pleasing, and the nervous system. Verena is speaking at 2026 PVI International Gathering. Our theme this year is "Navigating Conflict With a Resilient Nervous System. Join us in Spain this September!
Verena shares how the fawn response and appeasement response are not signs of weakness, but adaptive trauma survival responses. We explore how early attachment wounds and relational trauma shape adult relationships, and why unhealthy relationship patterns can sometimes feel safer than healthy connection.
This conversation explores Polyvagal Theory, complex PTSD, nervous system regulation, and the healing journey of moving from automatic survival responses into more choice, connection, and self-trust.
If you have ever wondered why you over-adapt, people-please, avoid conflict, silence your needs, or lose yourself in relationships, this episode will help you understand the deeper trauma and nervous system patterns underneath those responses.
Learn more about Verena and her work here.
CONNECT WITH Polyvagal Institute:
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LinkedIn: polyvagal-institute
Email: community@polyvagal.org
CONNECT WITH Travis Goodman:
Web: travisgoodmanlmft.com
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Transcript
Seeking Familiarity for Safety
00:00:00
Speaker
unconsciously are looking for the known, for the for the um known, I don't know the better English word, for the things that are common to me, that i own i know to navigate those circumstances. And this makes me feel safe because it's not so overwhelming and I have answers, I have answers, reactions and patterns.
00:00:23
Speaker
yeah So safety is a big word as we know and yeah that's a key point that being in in not good circumstances and adverse circumstances can feel safer than being in good circumstances for Jewish people.
Introduction to Verena Koenig
00:00:40
Speaker
Today, I'm joined by Verena Koenig, who is a trauma therapist and author, a podcaster, and a trainer based Germany. For over 20 years, Verena has worked at the intersection of trauma, relationships, and the nervous system. She is the author of Am I Traumatized? and Trauma in Relationships. and her podcasts and writing reach hundreds of thousands of people each week. Welcome back to Wired for Connection, polyvagal podcast. I'm your host, my name is Travis
Podcast Topic: Appeasement and Fawning
00:01:06
Speaker
Goodman. Today, we explore appeasement and fawning, why the nervous system learns to keep others calm, and how healing helps us move toward choice, boundaries, and real connection.
00:01:18
Speaker
Verena, am so excited to have you here on the Wired for Connection podcast and excited to hear more about your work. And for those listeners who are new to your work, kind of what is your main focus right now and who are you?
00:01:37
Speaker
First of all, I want to say thank you for being invited, for having me. I'm really honored to be in your podcast. And in our pre-conversation, I already said that I'm not used to give podcast talks in English. So this is a debut for me and i'm really i'm really excited. But it's so nice to be connected to you and I feel safe and welcome. So I'm really happy to share something of my work and my heart here. Yeah.
00:02:04
Speaker
So who am
Verena's Mission in Trauma Education
00:02:05
Speaker
I? i'm I'm a trauma therapist based in Germany and I'm working with complex PTSD with people who who had experienced early trauma, childhood trauma, and I'm very focused on educating coaches and therapists.
00:02:23
Speaker
A huge goal in my work is to spread the knowledge of trauma and trauma dynamics to ah broad community community to therapists who have never heard about trauma in their in their educational journey, to coaches who don't know anything about trauma and so sometimes cause harm or don't help, cannot help because they don't work trauma informed with traumatized people. So educating is a focus in my work.
00:02:56
Speaker
And I'm also a podcaster. I have a podcast in German ah with a quite good um reach. There are many listeners. yeah And I have, ah um I'm an author. I have written two books right now. I'm writing my third book.
00:03:13
Speaker
And I really love spreading knowledge as a key to understand the human nature and human vulnerability and to prevent trauma and help people who suffer from trauma.
00:03:27
Speaker
I love that mission of bringing good education to those who are unaware and to kind of bring them to date to give them more, more tools, more awareness. and And for your story, what, what first drew you into trauma and nervous system work?
Verena's Journey into Trauma Work
00:03:46
Speaker
i I get this question a lot and I always have to think what was the key thing that led me to trauma and nervous system work. And I think it was a natural natural yeah river of experiences that led me to this focus.
00:04:02
Speaker
I early had a really genuine interest in in understanding the human psyche, how people act, why they do act, why they behave in certain ways and why they don't.
00:04:15
Speaker
And that was kind of like a mystery to me, even when I learned a lot about psychology. And then when I first crossed trauma on my way, it was like,
00:04:27
Speaker
ah That's the explanation of so many unexplainable, strange looking, not understandable behaviors and patterns. And so there I was like on fire. And that was 15 years ago when I had my first trauma centered um yeah ah course or experience. And from then on, I specialized in trauma, soon met or got in touch with a polyvagal theory that was another eye opener and ah so helpful. And so this is, it is just natural when you when you want to understand humans, you will get like an enlightenment when you hear about trauma. i feel So helpful. Yeah.
Appeasement vs. Fawning: Definitions and Functions
00:05:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No. And I, I relate to that in my own story too, of learning about trauma and what it is. And, and me too, when I found out polyvagal theory that really lit, got me really excited to learn more and to see how everything comes back to the nervous system, right? Everything starts there and kind of moves out from that space. And so, um, I, I relate to that excitement, um, personally and professionally. Um,
00:05:41
Speaker
And so your work, I know, is focused really on relationships and trauma and dynamics. And and and I'm wondering if you could define for us, how would you explain and how would you define ah these words of appeasement, of fawning? Like, what do you mean by that?
00:05:59
Speaker
I thought about it a lot ah prior to our conversation, how to define these words, because in Germany, in our German language, psychological world, there is not so much use of the word appeasement. Fawning, people pleasing are really common words right now. That was not so like three, four or five years ago. But appeasement is not really common in Germany. and It is really helpful to to include this word as it distinguishes more precisely what are the differences in nervous system um concerning nervous system states.
00:06:42
Speaker
And so I in generally think or I mean by using the words like appeasement or fawning that we talk about reactions that are highly intelligent social skills. that are supporting surviving in destructive circumstances.
00:07:02
Speaker
And so I often call them like social submission abilities as an umbrella term to describe that they are taking place in social situations, in relational situations with a highly threatening character and often with a really um strong power imbalance. Mm-hmm.
Maturity, Awareness, and Nervous System Impact
00:07:24
Speaker
And I think they are especially relevant for me in the context of early and complex trauma and relational trauma, because there's the this very explicit dependency of our caregivers when we are children and this highly distressed dilemma of being dependent on someone while this person also is a threat.
00:07:52
Speaker
And here, yeah, our or i want available threat responses or survival responses like fleeing, fighting, they are not the solution because we are so dependent, naturally dependent, not pathologically dependent.
00:08:10
Speaker
And so the the appeasement and fawning responses, which we can distinguish in in our conversation a bit more, I think, ah they are really life saving and so intelligent and and ah also a beautiful um demonstration of our human spectrum or yeah spectrum of social skills and social nature. We are so much socially primed that this is really important to have this available.
00:08:44
Speaker
When I think of, and I hear that, there's, I
Early Relationships as Survival Strategy Teachers
00:08:48
Speaker
think an important distinction as children, right? There's some some options that we don't always have or have the agency to do. And so these become a way of surviving ort or navigating or both the dynamic we find ourselves in.
00:09:01
Speaker
um I've also heard it, those attachment wounds is another term her term I've heard you use, attachment trauma, attachment wounds or attachment deficits. um to our primary caregivers, just to kind of like how I'm thinking about it as well. And so could you, since you said this, could you define it a little more distinctly for those listening of a P like a P like an example of appeasement versus a fawn?
00:09:24
Speaker
What's the similarities and differences there? So I think they they overlap a lot, but it's possible to distinguish a bit. And I also oriented on Stephen Porges' distinction from here. So I relate to that.
00:09:42
Speaker
And it still is not so easy to say as these terms are not clearly defined scientifically. And so in my experience, appeasement is, so to say, more mature, maybe with more intellectual and strategic character, whilst fawning is more like a chronic form of social submission,
00:10:05
Speaker
where the the affected person is sacrificing herself also with the help of dissociation oftentimes.
00:10:15
Speaker
So appeasement is probably more awake and optimistic and fawning is more submissive and helpless, more connected to a dorsal vagal state. A lot of dissociation is taking place, the dissociation of own needs,
00:10:32
Speaker
of of the own self maybe, which is really interesting when we think about how this is imprinting our nervous system, how this is shaping our nervous system ah concerning relational um dynamics later in in life and in adult relationships.
00:10:52
Speaker
But before I maybe say a bit more to that or we can look at that a bit, yeah I still I try to define it a bit more. And I think appeasement describes like a survival strategy in which the social engagement system the social engagement behaviors are recruited to calm and soften and influence or even regulate the person who is the dangerous person, who is perceived as dangerous. And it is especially relevant in situations of the high power imbalance and acute situations like captivity,
00:11:32
Speaker
or abuse, acute violence or sop the severe power imbalance I also mentioned. yeah And in contrary the our contrast to that, fawning in my experience usually refers more to a habitual relational pattern.
00:11:52
Speaker
It's more habitual, it's more um like behavior based and not reaction based, if this is maybe understandable.
00:12:03
Speaker
And so there are many, many patterns. It's a lot existing. There are many patterns existing based on fawning, like pleasing, complying, over functioning, over adapting. self silencing or even abandoning one's own needs.
00:12:22
Speaker
This is very common in order to maintain attachment or prevent conflict to someone we are dependent on. And i love that distinction in a way. It's one of those I think appeasement and fawning, there is a lot of overlap because you're dealing with a similar nervous system states. But I think what I'm hearing from you is one is more mature, more active, using some of that, you know, the ventral energy, the social engagement system to kind of mobilize self versus fawning is more, yeah, that more shut down kind of dorsal way and similar.
00:12:59
Speaker
somalia um and And so, but it's one that we're always trying understand and interesting in German that that's not a, ah the the appeasement is a word that isn't really fully used or understood. And so it sounds like you're doing really important work to how do we make sense of this in the German language and use language to understand this and articulate it. um And you kind of alluded to this, but I'm wondering we go a little into what are those what are some of the early relationships or environments that teach the body that appeasement or fawning others is the safest option? What are some of those yeah
Role of Caregivers and Emotional Safety in Childhood
00:13:38
Speaker
relationships for environments?
00:13:38
Speaker
I think, first of all, any environment and families and first in pri primal caregivers. I don't know if you say that in in English too. Sure. pre Yeah. Primary, primal. Primary caregivers. Primary. Yeah.
00:13:53
Speaker
So the most important people when they are not safe enough. to be yourself, to be authentic, to to learn how to feel your own feelings, how to develop your own needs, your own boundaries, your own character and and and personality. So in any circumstances where a child does not feel safe to be with their emotion, with their need, with their self,
00:14:26
Speaker
their self ah We have to adapt in a highly and very fundamental way. And adaption the the ability to adapt is then the safest option because we are so naturally dependent on the caregiver. And this is it's really, really interesting interesting to to explore this with affected individuals, adult individuals, as they often, when they have to adapt very early, they are more in the fawn response spectrum, not so much in the appeasement, but more in the fawning, because it's so overwhelming and it's so much helplessness and so much... um
00:15:08
Speaker
loneliness so they they are more in the dissociated spectrum often and one of the very high prices of this adaption strategy or life-saving adaption strategy is that there is little opportunity to develop a real sense of self.
00:15:29
Speaker
There's so much orienting on the caregiver, so much reading their ah their mut mood, their state, their nervous system state. how How dangerous is it if I move like not being friendly or not being so much um adaptive? ah So there's lots of...
00:15:52
Speaker
attention on the other person and deficit on attention of my so on myself is the consequence. Yeah. And so yeah so it doesn't create safety to grow. Like you said, the doesn't allow one to individuate to have a a personhood, like a need, if I'm so focused on primary caregiver, usually mom, dad, usually, or could be a grandparent or could be, you know, adoptive parent, something that I have to be hyper aware. Yeah. I think what you're saying to the, their mood, their energy. And so I'm scanning all the time and, you know, I can't, can I really relax? Is it safe to relax?
00:16:33
Speaker
Yeah, and as we know, as polyvagal informed practitioners, high stress is not so good for the social engagement system activities. No, no, no.
00:16:46
Speaker
And it's a really, really a fascinating ability of our human nature that we can, even under high stress, engage socially,
00:16:59
Speaker
to save our life. So, and and it's, it's important to understand that the, the social interaction that is happening under pressure and under, under the the burden of helping and saving myself is not faked. is It is not a fake smile. It's not fake prosody. It's not a fake social interaction, but it is couple on high stress, on high vigilance, on dorsal vagal states or two dorsal vagal states. So this is it's a mixture. It's it's ah describing hybrid states of our nervous system that are shaping our perception of of relationship and world and ourself.
00:17:51
Speaker
And so it's in my experience to to say this right now, we are not not in this field right now, but I want to mention that in my experience as a practitioner, it is really a beautiful work to to explore and understand these highly intelligent and unconscious moves of our nervous system that is in service of our life, of our living.
Understanding Unconscious Survival Moves
00:18:18
Speaker
And to to find out that all the ability that is captured in fawning and in appeasing is not fake, but is it's only it's enmeshed in survival energy. We can detangle it and we can save it and and make it...
00:18:38
Speaker
ah Our own. We can own it bit by bit later in life if we can do the trauma work. Yeah. Well, and you said something too, which is so important that it's an adaptation. it's ah It's our nervous system adapting to survive. It's not weakness, right? It's not that I'm um not bad. It's this was the option. And this is how I found naturally to kind of navigate this. And I'm wondering in your experience, how readily are clients you've seen or worked with able to recognize that in a way to to separate that this was normal, like this was my, what you mean? It's just normal. Like I, it's just how it was to like realizing, oh, this is fawning and appeasement. This is,
00:19:18
Speaker
I had to survive because I hear so many clients say, yeah I'm fine. it was That's how my life was. That was just normal. That was my home. And almost like they can't see yet that it was most likely actually a fawning response.
00:19:31
Speaker
And the reason why I ask that question is because I think it shows up in adult relationships if we don't recognize it. Yeah, that's a good point and and also in my practice very important and like turning points in therapy or in in process work.
00:19:47
Speaker
um I think or i I observe that many people come on track to realize these things. First of all, because they begin to suffer because they realize i am suffering from some inability to navigate and and to create and to to be agent in my relationships. I feel like they are happening. I feel like I am part of it, by but I'm not really part of it. I'm not feeling... That I am ah living my life. It feels like my life is living me or something like that. Like like this passive passive feeling of not really being part of my own life. And so there's the suffering and longing to change things. yeah And then people try to change things and they don't find the right way to change things because it's not about the decision. It's about the embodied experience.
00:20:50
Speaker
And so there is the key turning point often is when people get the information. That's why spreading information is so worthy and so precious.
00:21:02
Speaker
And so often when when people ah get educated about nervous system states and about reactions, We are talking about reactions, about ah subconscious and pre pre-conscious reactions. And when they, they get the the information, they start to reflect on their story and on their biography in a different way.
00:21:25
Speaker
And then there are like options coming up on the horizon, how things could change. And often there's a change of perspective on, on themselves. So like,
00:21:38
Speaker
um it's not then it's not a pseudo
Connecting with Feelings and Needs
00:21:43
Speaker
decision. i want to be important. I want to make my needs important too. Because in the pseudo, in the head decision, they don't have a connection to their own feelings and needs.
00:21:56
Speaker
And with the perspective shift, and and which is like a bridge to self-empathy or self-turning towards oneself, then there's a connection to their own needs and to so to feel oneself.
00:22:12
Speaker
anywhere at all. And this is in my observation, like a turning point and at the beginning of a huge process, which is very empowering and also very painful often.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah. What is your experience with with your clients in this, in this field? Great question. Um, yeah, thanks for the question back. I tell you, i could tell you do a podcast. Uh,
00:22:37
Speaker
No, I think too is is often i find the trajectory of first that there is something, there's something bothering them. There's something that doesn't feel quite right or something's off or, and it's showing up usually later.
00:22:52
Speaker
You know, I work with usually adults and so, and I focus on men. And so you'll see it showing up in ways and and behaviors that, may not necessarily be relational. They're more individual, like maybe they're, they're working more hours at work, staying away, they're disconnected, a little more numb, checked out. Maybe they're drinking more. They're doing something to deal with what's happening relationally. And a lot of that, as I go back to their history, understand their family of origin and their, their story, you start to see the signs, uh, but for them usually early on, they don't see it as a sign. It's just kind of, yeah, this is just how life it's. This was normal. This is what do you mean? i don't know. This, my dad did this or mom did this, that that's just how my life was. And so it's almost like there's a disconnect between the model and the blueprint in early childhood to adult, how that's shaping adult relationship or how it's impacting adult relationship. And so I think early on, it's just hearing someone's story and narrative in a way, seeing, seeing the dots connect and,
00:23:58
Speaker
introducing some concepts in a way say what do you think about that and then it starts to kind of click over and then it's like well it looks like you did this here and looks like you're doing it now as an adult and why do you think that is so asking kind of questions to help them discover it versus like you know shoving it in their face um but and as they do that they really start to see oh yeah that makes i'm seeing that now and i feel that now and You know, often healing those old wounds, healing some of the stuff that couldn't be fully seen or understood is often a lot the work is healing those attachment wounds, those deficits, those earlier traumas or those moments of neglect or what they had to do to survive and even naming it in a way to to see it, which is hugely validating just to name it and say, wow, okay, that
00:24:46
Speaker
I had to do this and and do I need to do that now?
Healing Past Traumas and Attachment Wounds
00:24:49
Speaker
Right. And that's, I think some of the the growth is maybe the way in which I'm responding reacting now isn't so effective. But when I was five, 10, maybe that was the most safest, effective strategy. um I didn't think of it a strategy. This is just what I did.
00:25:06
Speaker
So I think it's it's realizing that I just did this without thinking. wasn't a conscious choice. I'm going to fawn right now. Like I'm going to appease. Like five-year-olds, 10-year-olds aren't thinking that. Even adults aren't. It's just more of an automatic shift of our nervous system is taking over.
00:25:20
Speaker
And when they begin to see that, you see light bulbs go off. yeah um and so and so And I know that you focus on romantic
Attachment Wounds in Adult Relationships
00:25:29
Speaker
relationships. So I'm wondering for you, how do you see it showing up in romantic relationships now, that kind of appeasement fawning?
00:25:34
Speaker
I think fundamentally in the often subconscious fear of rupture so because of the ah attachment wounds, um many affected people are afraid of ruptures or afraid of too much.
00:25:53
Speaker
intimacy or too much closeness. And i I always refer to our attachment system. Also, when I talk about trauma and relational trauma and and then relations, relationships in which those patterns show up as um and i I make it like like very simple by explaining that our attachment system is like our nervous system, very reactive. It is very sensitive to stress. And when we are like, um when we have experiences of rapture and of being alone or being abandoned, neglected, whatever, then
00:26:34
Speaker
all all All things on relationship are coupled to these experiences. it's not it's not We are not able to set it aside or just mute it out. We we can dissociate it, but then it's still impacting our relationships.
00:26:50
Speaker
So our our attachment system can... ah simply so said being over activated like a hyper vigilant nervous system the attachment system can be hyperactive and then we are like more in the dependency um spectrum we lose ourselves we fawn a lot we do the people pleasing and all the submissive interactions we we are not part of the relationship we are only in introjecting the needs of the other person and working to make those meets met those needs met yeah and when our and our attachment system is overrun often in our child when we are abandoned a lot then our attachment system can go offline so to say it can be inhibited yeah and this is like a dissociation spectrum where we where we become very independent, pseudo independent. We are pseudo in a pseudo autonomy. We are like not needing anybody, being the best self by our own, not taking help or not even um searching for intimacy or yeah bonding.
00:28:07
Speaker
yeah And so in our adult relationships, I often see those patterns in very complex and intellectual or individually intelligent ways.
00:28:21
Speaker
So like ah people are showing something but feeling something else they are maybe very compliant loving caring but they don't feel attached they don't feel bonding they don't feel intimacy they just are functioning maintaining attachment or a relationship but suffering to being nourished, being received, being held, being co-regulated. They do it all by their own. And yeah and that that leads to to conflicts sooner or later. Some people live like this for 50 years.
00:29:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
Unhealthy Patterns and Perceived Safety
00:29:01
Speaker
It's really possible, but many, many can't make it. That's like an example for for your question. I could say. Yeah, no, thank you yeah and you. Yeah, and you're right. People can stay that for but lifespan. They're not even, they can be in that that dynamic.
00:29:16
Speaker
And that just, it's familiar, right? And then they may not change. It might just be what they do. Yeah. I'm not gonna say it's good or bad or right or wrong. It's just they find relationships and create a similar dynamic or pattern that is familiar to the nervous system that makes, I guess, sense in the sense that, oh, this is what feels true, I guess. Or sick enough, maybe. Yeah.
00:29:42
Speaker
Sure. I think even sometimes the unhealthy can feel safe because it's familiar. That's the problem. think that's one of the key problems. Yes. Can you speak more on that? Because I think that is so important to say because that can feel safe, safe in the sense that I know this versus maybe a really healthy relationship who's really bringing in the person and allowing the independence and the relationship, the emotions that that can feel very not safe and feel like a threat. Like, no, I don't want that. So can you, can you speak to that a little bit?
00:30:12
Speaker
Yes, I love to. Yeah, that's a key point in in my work too. The secure attachment is like our, I say, our, how do you say that? when you When you get a new computer and there is some setup on the computer, how do you call that?
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, like, a yeah, setup. Yeah, that works. Yeah, setup. so The P setup or the the pre-setup or the delivery setup. Yeah, setup. That works. Setup. And so yeah our, and you can, you can set it back to this setup. You can set the system back to Bergeinstellung, we say in German. No matter. So what I want to say I got you. You're good. What I want to say is that ah the secure attachment is our primary merry setup. This is how our system is set up. This is our biology.
Secure Attachment vs. Pseudo-Safety
00:31:00
Speaker
And everything we we do to to survive not secure attachment in our childhood is adaptive attachment. performance, it's high performance in in adaption, so to speak.
00:31:15
Speaker
And so in in my in my opinion, um secure attachment is another a word for ah felt sense of safety, embodied safety, feeling safe in this world.
00:31:27
Speaker
And if we don't get this, if this is not our our experience in our very very important and very fundamental years of childhood, we have to find safety in quote in quotes, maybe you say that? Yeah. is Pseudo safety by adapting and by finding strategies. And so the strategies and our subconscious patterns of behavior and of thinking and feeling become the like a space holder, like a
00:32:04
Speaker
the substitute for safety, for real safety. And this is very key for adults later in life to understand that the the longing for a good feeling in life, for an an embodied ah sense of...
00:32:21
Speaker
of a nice and safe life quality is feeling safe. We know that as polyvagal informed practitioners. And so um we find pseudo safety in our adaptive performance, in our adaptive and life saving patterns. And it is a huge work and and beautiful and challenging work to find out what real safety, sorry, what real safety is. yeah
00:32:52
Speaker
so um And to understand that being able to survive in destructive contexts is feeling safe.
00:33:03
Speaker
This is really important to understand that we sometimes... unconsciously are looking for the known, for the things that are common to me, that i own I know to navigate those circumstances. And this makes me feel safe because it's not so overwhelming and I have answers. I have answers, reactions and patterns.
00:33:25
Speaker
yeah so safety is a big word as we know and uh yeah that's a key point that being in in not good circumstances and adverse circumstances can feel safer than being in good circumstances for traumatized people and i think that also speaks to like the healing process or the healing i call it the journey right that a lot of times its clients could come in and say well when should i feel better like why you know why is this taking so long or i should ah You know, it's not working, you know, and um because I think to your point, relearning safety, it's like layers you got to work through. It's not like an on-off switch of like, hey, I'm safe, not safe, because the nervous system can train itself to predict that this is, again, a healthy relationship. That doesn't, that feels riskier than, dig again, the known. This is more known, so it feels...
00:34:17
Speaker
safe, but really within that safety is pain. But to risk to go out of this, it takes repetition and work because you got to trust. you got to It's a big risk for a lot of clients and people to actually risk real safe relationship. And how do i actually show up? That's ah another piece too is I don't really know how to show up. What am I actually feeling? I think that's another growth area is what am I actually experiencing that's true?
00:34:43
Speaker
That's actually me? Or is it just the person that I'm reading? And so I'm picking up that signal from them. And so I'm, I'm kind of feeling that, but what am I actually, and I think that's also thing. It's almost like they have to relearn themselves of like, yeah what is Travis actually experiencing? I don't really know what I'm thinking or feeling.
00:35:00
Speaker
And so I think the healing journey is, it takes time. mean, I'm curious your thought on that. Yeah, I totally agree. and And I experienced that the healing journey is like a journey to get to know oneself.
Journey to Rediscover True Self
00:35:14
Speaker
As like as you said right now, um we often don't know what we are feeling and if our feelings are reactions to something like a fawn reaction i'm adapting or is it a real longing a real wish from my inner self and especially in complex trauma in early childhood trauma where people are so much surviving through adaption it is a real journey to explore own
00:35:46
Speaker
needs, own boundaries, own like skills and characteristics of of a deep true self. And so many people are really sad and have to grieve that they had to abandon themselves so early in life and that it's now a challenge to to find oneself in in in a real...
00:36:11
Speaker
dense wood ah forest of adaptive strategies. So this is a real journey. And I, or we often talk about the corrective experience of the the the mismatch of the old, um like, how do you say expectation? Yeah, we are predicting things like you said. Yeah.
00:36:37
Speaker
because of our experiences, how our nervous system was shaped. And now we have to find the healing mix, mismatch, a time breaker.
00:36:48
Speaker
yeah And the corrective experience is really important. And this is also something that is really important in our therapeutic practices, that we are the ones, the People, the the person, the human being who can embody safety and offer a secure attachment ah some to be someone who is a safe haven to make some corrective experiences.
00:37:19
Speaker
And I think that's why it takes so it could take a it's ah it's a journey, getting to know self. I think what you said a journey to getting to know self. And that that could take... Time, more than a week, I would say. Sometimes more than a week. And I think sometimes we we live in a world that has a lot of promises of healing and and you know healing nervous system stuff, but a lot of over-promise, I would say, in our social media world that we live in. I think there's a lot of good, but some stuff that just over-promises and things that are just not really accurate because I think the real work is time. It really is a journey.
00:37:55
Speaker
of self-discovery and what is actually, what is actually true and almost like learning a new language again and then learning to trust people. And how do I actually do that? I mean, I think that's, you know, what I'm thinking of is when you're doing the work with people and you you talked of the corrective experience, I think you're talking about yourself, like sitting with someone, like I'm more of that grounded self and they're borrowing from me, much like a parent, much like a child borrows from a parent.
00:38:18
Speaker
I heard it said, you know, i think Tina Bryson said this or Dr. Dan Siegel said, is that like our you our kids borrow our prefrontal cortex when they're still learning. And in a way, I think our clients borrow our nervous system.
00:38:34
Speaker
But that still may, for a while, may still feel like a threat and not okay. Like it's a risk for them. And I think some clients, but even if it's safe, they'll go, they'll still leave a healthy relationship, right? Because that's not familiar. And so I think it's repetition, it's consistency, it's relational, it's slowing, it's slow. And I'm and i'm wondering from your work, what, you know, as people are on that journey, what's like a sign or two that you see that people are beginning to heal?
00:39:04
Speaker
I think very common signs, signs that that show up often and get really tangible, that can be really identified, the shifts in self-awareness and self-dialogue, maybe you can can call it. So there's like an attitude shift, I realize, and that's that's a real, a real important sign to me that the way for the process is like free now. There will be obstacles, there will be difficult terrain to pass, but the shift in the attitude where people can start to be compassionate with themselves. to understand themselves rather than just devaluating or abwerten, to make themselves small or to judge themselves. yeah This is a huge sign, I guess. and
00:40:09
Speaker
And what I also see as a good sign, early sign, is when people get curious about themselves. i would agree, Verena, that I too would, I mean, absolutely. I think that more curious and more self-compassion rather than just utter criticism, self-deprecation, judgment, you know, shame. You find the right English words I missed. um No, you're ju you're fine. You're doing great. Yeah. So I think that's, I've also, that's what I see is that that's, and not that they're always curious, not that they're always compassionate, but you're seeing more that's, it's more of that's beginning to come in to their mind and their body, which allows them to step into that place versus just total deprecation, shame, shame.
00:40:54
Speaker
You know, um and that's a process, though. But I agree. That's a great sign. And so for those that are listening, hey, that's a great sign that you're well on your way. And it's but that's still a journey. I mean, this is it's still a process. But when you start to see that that curiousness and that more grounded self lead.
00:41:13
Speaker
you really start to see the ability, I think, to kind of hold perspective of like, hold on, is a ah part of me that's feeling like fawning or appeasing or shutting down. And I'm able to kind of ah observe that and say, well, what is it trying to do for me? How's it trying to help? And do I really need to do that anymore? Do I actually have to do this? Or can I actually say something? Can I actually show up And I mean, that's a process in and of itself is to be able to have this ability to notice. And Dr. Porter's talks about this is like almost it's the regaining of nervous system flexibility.
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah, is who I'm noticing I'm in this state, I'm noticing my nervous system is stuck or in this one of these states are blended state and okay, I can now see it versus I'm in it, right? I think you said I'm lost in the thick of the woods of the forest. Like I can't see, you know, more than like a few feet in front of me. Now I'm like, hold on, I can now have a perspective. And I think that's also you start to see shifts in people when that occurs. Yeah.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah, you said so many very important things in in a beautiful way. And i I would like to emphasize two of them again. Please do. you you just You just described that in this process, in this in this time we we are starting to to create, the social engagement system is much more coming online in this process. yeah And not under pressure, not under threat. like in fawning and appeasing, but in a safe moment. and this is This is like neuroplasticity in its best way.
00:42:57
Speaker
um And this is where change happens. And the other very important thing you you said is the term, some part of me is feeling this or thinking this. And I'm also I'm working lots with ego states. I'm doing ego state therapy ah in my trauma work.
00:43:16
Speaker
And um this is also a really helpful shift when people are able to like distinguish that it's not the whole identity.
00:43:29
Speaker
to feel like that or act like that or think like that, but that there is something else inside of them, like the the one that is observing, the one that is starting to feel different, the one that starting to feel compassionate with other parts. And I find it very, very precious to utilize this possibility to think in parts to Not to scatter our personality or make dissociation ah beautiful, but to to unify and to to um make links where where prior times there was no link but only dissociation and therefore no option, no no agency, no other choice. And you just emphasized the but ability to choose. Like, do I want to act like this? Do I want to make this decision again? or can I do something new and different in small steps?
Recognizing Personal Agency in Healing
00:44:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Which is the regaining of agency or ah recognizing that they do have agency. And I think that's also a sign too that I that i think you saw that not only compassionate and curiosity, but the realization that I can actually choose. i don't have to just be automatic and go with whatever I'm feeling, but I could, I guess to quote Deb Dana's work is use discernment yeah um to notice what state I'm in and to ask that question, is this state I'm in fawning, appeasement, dorsal, whatever, is it a match with
00:45:12
Speaker
for the context I find myself in or a mismat ah mismatch. yeah And that's that discernment piece and that realizing there's agency in that awareness. And even if they can't fully know what to do next, even just the awareness of, hey, I think this might be a mismatch. i don't know what to do now, but at least I know that's happening.
00:45:31
Speaker
It's also, I think, a sign of regaining agency, the awareness, the perspective. And again, the journey. The journey, and I will also say do the journey with everybody, that while there's a lot of similarities people's healing journey, it's also unique to the individual. There's no one...
00:45:46
Speaker
I can't say it's go to take you a month or two or three. it could, it might take three or four or five years. I don't, I don't really, I personally don't know. I've worked with clients on both ends of that, that it's been years and some that are, and it's not that if it goes quick or slow, it's good or bad. It's just different. um Yeah. And not linear. Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
No, it's definitely not linear. you know It's kind of up and down, up and down, up and down, and you know and and everyone's journey is unique. But I think it does require, and this is where I love co-regulation and polyvagal theory, is it does require relationship.
00:46:18
Speaker
We do not heal in isolation. We could do some healing. I think we would work on ourself for sure. But I think complete healing and integration requires relationships because if we're wired for that. And to your point too, going back to early childhood, we are wired for relationship. We're to seek out connection, to train, to soothe, to feel safe, to feel secure.
00:46:41
Speaker
and We still need that as adults and in a different way. mean, very the same way, but less dependence on one person. It's both and it's like in a healthy interdependence on people and also a healthy reliance of on self. It's both. And yeah. um And so with that said, can you give us a quick preview of like a sentence or two of what you're speaking on at the conference?
Verena's Upcoming Conference Appearance
00:47:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:05
Speaker
Yeah, I'm so happy and excited to be there in Spain and meet hopefully some of our listeners. And my topic will about <unk>ll be about fawning and appeasement to navigate conflicts um in relationships. And i don't I'm not ready with my talk yet. That's okay. You got time. You got time.
00:47:26
Speaker
You got a couple months. um But I'm really excited. it It will be a huge challenge for me to to wrap it up to a a quarter of an hour. but there will be key takeaways to yeah recognize fawning and appeasement because it's It's sometimes hard to realize and recognize in our relationship to our clients.
00:47:48
Speaker
So we'll talk from the therapist therapist's perspective to realize and recognize and how to how to navigate those those patterns and how to heal or how to offer healing possibilities.
00:48:04
Speaker
And if you could change one thing about the trauma and nervous system field, what's one thing that you would wish for?
Collaboration in Trauma Field
00:48:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:16
Speaker
I think the most urgent wish I had, I had lots of wishes if I could. Yeah. You can have all, but just for now, what's the one, what's the urgent one, the top one? Yeah. No, the urgent and top one, top one is, uh, to, to work together, not to be like fighting against each other, to, to focus on, on interdisciplinarity, to exchange knowledge, to exchange points of view, to, to change perspective and just to learn from each other instead of being rigid in what we learned and are like convinced of for decades. Just I would love people to be more open and more connected and more exchanging their experiences and knowledge. That would be great, I think.
00:49:05
Speaker
I would second that. I think 100%. Less competition, more collaboration and respect. I would 100%. ah Absolutely. That would, I think,
00:49:20
Speaker
Well, if anything, it'd be modeling actually healthy relationship, be modeling healthy relationship. Uh, go figure, right. Uh, Hey, here's the thing. All the the people in the field are people too, and people have their stuff. And so my hope is that, um, there's more healing there to,
Verena's Resources and Work in German
00:49:36
Speaker
to model. Um, and if, if, if, uh, I guess where can people find your work books, podcasts, trainings, where is that?
00:49:45
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's it's mostly German. I'm not so much international still. That's okay. But if someone is German speaking or if someone wants to translate via YouTube translation is AI. You can find my work by googling or looking up for my name um and and then you can find my work which is education courses, online courses, books and free audio courses and meditations.
00:50:16
Speaker
yeah Well, Verena, thank you so much for your time and blessings on your your journey over the next few months of getting everything ready for the conference and also all the work that you're doing and helping spread good information and education around these topics.
00:50:34
Speaker
So thank you for your work and blessings today. Thank you so much for having me here. I really enjoyed our conversation and connection. Thank you so much.
00:50:46
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Wired for Connection, a Polyvagal podcast produced by Polyvagal Institute. New episodes of this podcast are published monthly. Follow Polyvagal Institute on social media to learn more about upcoming guests and episode release dates. To learn more about Polyvagal Theory and support PVI on their mission to create a safer and more connected world, visit their website at polyvagal.org.