Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Genre Of Pop (with Alex W.G. Rickel)
148 Plays24 days ago
This week on HOMOPHONIC, I’m joined by a very special guest—my brother and lead singer of Future Killer, Alex W.G. Rickel! 🎤🎸
We kick things off by venting about the evolution (or devolution?) of social media and how it’s changed the way we experience music. Then, we dive into the age-old debate: What is pop music, really? Is it a genre? A catch-all term? A sound?
And of course, no sibling episode would be complete without a trip down memory lane—reminiscing about our very first concert (Weird Al Yankovic, naturally), the golden era of TRL, and the legendary mixtapes our dad made for us as kids. His passion for music shaped who we are today, and we’re unpacking it all.
Tune in for nostalgia, music talk, and some good ol’ sibling banter! 🎶🔥
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:00
Speaker
can i Can I drink do it when we talk? You can drink if you want, yeah.
00:00:08
Speaker
what are you What are you drinking? Just tea. um My voice has been like scratchy and dry for like weeks. Yeah. Which is, it doesn't matter and I'm not doing a whole lot, but I've got a lot of music shows coming up that I'm like,
00:00:25
Speaker
Yeah, you need to you need that voice. you need that You need that singing voice. um Okay, welcome back to Homophonic, everybody. My name is Zach. I'm your host, clearly. I don't know why I just introduced myself, but I'm really excited. and do Every podcast host introduces himself. Every podcast host.
00:00:43
Speaker
They do. They do. And it feels strange every time I do it. But hello, everybody. i' am so excited that voice that you are hearing. I'm really excited. This is a very special episode. It is my very own brother, Alex W.G. Rickle. Hello.
00:00:57
Speaker
hello hi Hi. For those of you that might know him, I mean, down in your region of Louisville, Kentucky, um you are the lead lead singer, right, of Future Killer? Mm-hmm.
00:01:11
Speaker
And you're musician. You are an artist, a sculptor, a dog dad, ah lighting expert. Mm-hmm.
00:01:23
Speaker
What else? what What am I missing? Yeah. ah Social terrorist.
00:01:32
Speaker
ah Social terrorist. Very much a social terrorist. Yeah. Maybe that'll be the title of episode. Just social terrorist. Social terrorism. want you to get flagged.
00:01:44
Speaker
ah Seriously. I'm starting to hear that echo again. I'll turn the headphones down. Okay. Yeah. Maybe just because you're, maybe you're powerful. hear echo in your room.
00:01:56
Speaker
Do you hear like um and yeah like your voice echoing or do you hear me? No, I just hear like your room. Yeah. I know. Yeah, I'm sorry, everyone. i I made a big deal about my brother having a microphone set up and like made everything being all like, oh, yeah, i like try to be as professional as possible or whatever, whatever. I didn't actually make a huge deal about it. But – do all of that and then I left my attachment to plug in my microphone somewhere.
00:02:20
Speaker
So I am without my dongle, if you will, misplaced my dongle. i I love that word dongle. yeah think it's so silly. It is a good word, but it's also like we're at the peak of human technology and it's like, oh crap, I don't have my dongle.
00:02:37
Speaker
My dongle has gone missing. I can't do anything. I can't do my I can't find my dongle. I can't feel my dongle. I wonder how many dongles go missing in the U S military, you know, sir, we can't fire the weapons.
00:02:52
Speaker
but I think it's in my car. What have you been up to?
Creative Work Challenges
00:03:00
Speaker
Gosh, lots of music, music land ah all the time.
00:03:04
Speaker
Pretty much. yeah I've got a pile of, fabrication jobs I'm kind of not I'm supposed to be working on but uh I haven't done those yet uh we're just we're recording a lot right now cool we recorded this ep we did all ourselves which I think is going to be our kind of forever method and um um The first one we did was tracking. you know So like we did bass and drums and some vocals and guitar, but all that everything but the drums were a scratch, meaning it's just there to get a good live performance out of the drums, and then we redo it all.
00:03:43
Speaker
And that's cool. That's fine. But we all decided, because our live show is such a big part of who we are our energy, that we decided we needed to and invest and develop some technologies to help us capture our sound just as we play all together simultaneously. So I built this large box, a sound dampening box that encases my bass cab.
00:04:11
Speaker
and traps a lot of the sound in there so it's not bleeding into the microphones or the drums and the vibraphones we have a special mic and the vibraphones that cancels out any other frequencies other than what we want going into it wow yeah we've we've done a lot of that kind of work and then this old console that i mentioned earlier i've had to take that apart twice now and fix a couple of things and our actually our other brother ben he might come down and We might do a lot of work on it together and replace more substantial components within the circuitry to kind of... interesting.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah. So it's it's funny how much time it takes. Yeah. Oh, my God. Seriously. People don't... People... One thing... This is like completely off topic and of anything that we were gonna talk about. But one thing that I was getting kind of really frustrated with today is that like people just don't understand what goes into creative work in general.
00:05:05
Speaker
It could be music, it could be graphic design, it can be video, it could be photo. yeah It could be an amalgamation of all of that, right? And then some audio editing, maybe it's not music, but maybe it's audio audio editing.
00:05:17
Speaker
Like creative work, there's so much that goes into it. Audio editing, it's like it's one thing if you're making a cool song. That's another thing if you're just like cutting through audio of like an audio book. Like no one's like praising that person, you know.
00:05:30
Speaker
That's hours hours and hours and hours. Also, anytime like I film a thing, I have to go watch all that footage. It takes forever just to be like, what do I want to use? And then you talk about making a thing for like social media consumption.
00:05:45
Speaker
Like I'll film, I'll have like an hour total of footage, which isn't much compared to the other, you know, things I'll film. But then I got to cram that down to like three and a half minutes. Like it's insane. Right.
00:05:58
Speaker
It's crazy. And i was thinking about all of this because I was like, people don't understand the work that it takes to put go into this, even like meme creation, like what I do. Right. And for then people to go on the internet and just waste so much time hating things and telling you and going out of their way to tell you how much they don't like something.
00:06:20
Speaker
I get that. Like, cause like, The thing is, is that like, I understand that we're like, we all have different tastes, right? We like, especially you and I quite literally like very opposite A to Z, right? Like very different in many, many ways.
00:06:36
Speaker
So we all have different tastes and, and whatnot. And so we're not all going to like the same things and that's fine. And I'm all about a tactful discourse about like, you know, why you might not like a song or why you not, why you might not like this meme or why you might not like this photo or whatever. Right.
00:06:54
Speaker
But people just go out of their way and spend so much time and energy to get truly nasty on the internet, especially. and I noticed it today because I had posted a carousel of memes on Sunday that ah was really felt like just very, it was very meta. It was about um how Lady Gaga's new song.
00:07:17
Speaker
Sounds similar to a remix of Madonna's Frozen. And I was like, I knew that putting... Let it go. Let it go. Exactly. I didn't know that Madonna.
00:07:29
Speaker
yeah And I knew that like putting that out there, people would get like... I knew that it would continue that narrative of like Lady Gaga copies Madonna, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
00:07:41
Speaker
So that was kind of what the whole meme carousel was about. It started with me like kind of presenting that, oh, yeah, her new single has similarities to this remix of Frozen. But then it like kind of goes through this like very meta...
00:07:54
Speaker
ah conversation about like oh I don't want to like start this narrative and then it just it's just very silly but people were still getting nasty in the comments even though like very clearly in the mean carousel I was like let's not right
Impact of Social Media on Creativity
00:08:09
Speaker
essentially I was basically like we don't need to go there like it's not this conversation's been beaten to death And I was just and but there was one person in particular who was just like commenting on like two or three different comments just being like, yeah, the song sucks, blah, bla blah, blah, blah.
00:08:25
Speaker
And I was just kind of like, like you're literally just wasting your time right now going out of your way, talking about something that you don't like. Yeah. And imagine if you put so much energy that same, or I should say that same energy into something that you love or something that actually matters.
00:08:46
Speaker
Right. Positively charged slime. Positively. Oh my God. Do I remember Ghostbusters too? And it's the negatively charged slime just flowing into the city and everyone's just got all pissed off and yelling at each other.
00:08:59
Speaker
That's it. Social media is the negatively charged slime. We've got to, got to play it some Jackie Wilson and get it to dance and move around. Right. Your love keeps taking me higher. like come on. Anyway, that's a little like tangent, but it was just something that I've been thinking about a lot today because I was just like, wow, like people really do go out of their way to just really let you know. And it's not even... it's like It would be one thing if it would be on their own account, right?
00:09:24
Speaker
But they go to your account or my... like Or wherever and just be like... but little little I don't like this. People are going to see it if they complain on your account. yeah Even though they have like 150 followers or something, like no one cares.
00:09:39
Speaker
So they're just, and I think it plays into like, people love to complain. I, when I'm feeling bad about stuff, I'll complain, you know, and it sort of helps you feel like you have some control and then you just get the anonymity of the internet and people go wild with it, you know, and it's like, yeah,
00:09:57
Speaker
and you know i don't I don't know why, but they want to tear things down instead of build things up. You can say whatever you want. I i love being like, I don't care for it. I thought it was terrible. But I always have the caveat of like that's what I think.
00:10:09
Speaker
Now, I also think, hell yeah, go be creative and make something. Like, we need people to be creative. You don't have to do everything I like. I like a lot of weird stuff, you know? Yeah. mean, I could always speak my truth without having to like cut people down. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean anything.
00:10:26
Speaker
ah just I'm just one person. now Who cares? I'll tell you what I think if you want. But like you know I'm only going to knock things that are actually like negative and then destructive. you know That's the only things I'm going to really try to shoot down are things that are trying to shoot other things down. you know Right. Yeah. And then again, and it's it's it's not like... like Obviously, i also think it's interesting that that social media has made people...
00:10:49
Speaker
feel entitled to just constantly share their opinion on everything. It's like, like, cause my, what I was thinking about too, was I was like, yes, you're entitled to have an opinion. You're entitled to have multiple opinions. Right.
00:11:01
Speaker
I don't know if you're necessarily entitled to share that opinion and like, or I should say like, you're not always invited to share that opinion. I don't care if you've seen something on a public platform or not. Like, like you're not always, your, your opinion doesn't always count in those situations.
00:11:23
Speaker
And I don't know, like again, and if there's a different, What's the motivation for, you know what i mean? I think that's a big part of it too. It's like, why are you sharing this right now? It's what, what are you trying to accomplish by saying this on the internet, yeah by being mean a comment section on Instagram, you know, like where it's a sad, lonely world that person is living.
00:11:44
Speaker
And if, even if they have a bunch of friends and do stuff, like they still are a sad, lonely world within their mind and heart, you know, like that's, think about it. It's the only people that do that kind of stuff.
00:11:55
Speaker
No one's like living a fulfilled, happy life, doing what they love or you know, finding balance between, you know, the people in their community themselves and their creative attributes. And and then they're going on the Internet being like fucking stupid assholes.
00:12:10
Speaker
Who's doing that? You know? ah Exactly. Exactly. But anyway, that's my little like tangent rant that I was just like, I've been thinking about it a lot. And especially, I mean, you know, obviously times are fucking crazy right now. And do you mean?
00:12:25
Speaker
Well, you know, just like where another plane crash today. Like, it's just like the crazy, like, I don't even want to say his name, but just like, you know, everything that's been going on in this country just in the last like six weeks has been.
00:12:42
Speaker
You know, i'm not on and any social media right now. You're not. Yeah, I shut it down. You know, I kind of wondered because I was going to say I haven't seen your you your stuff usually pops up.
00:12:54
Speaker
And now that you say that, I haven't seen it. Usually it takes like three weeks for me to like kind of notice because, of course, the way the algorithms work now, it's never like people that whose stuff I want to see.
00:13:06
Speaker
It's always like random shit or like, I don't know. Like it's just yeah' crazy. Always. Yeah. It's like kind of a two-headed thing. i Really the big thing.
00:13:18
Speaker
The big motivator, obviously, it's something that we think we all wrestle with. It's just like the time suck. And I just had so many moments where I was just staring into my phone so sad. I didn't want to be there anymore, but then I didn't have any motivation to do anything else. so I just stayed there.
00:13:31
Speaker
was awful. I hate that feeling. And the other thing is that i like you're saying earlier, you know, the effort it takes to make a thing. And content, I think sometimes is fine, but sometimes it's a gross word. I'll use it here because it makes sense, you know, to create content for your social media platform of choice or all of them, whatever it is.
00:13:52
Speaker
It takes so much time and effort and creativity, especially if it's going be a good thing, you know. And um i don't get paid for that. You don't get paid for that. And yet there are people who have like are billionaires that are trapping people in their phones and just staring at their phones because of all of us that want to make something beautiful to share or funny to share whatever, a thoughtful And, yeah you know, we all make the stuff that goes on there and then they make billions of dollars off of it. And they are also depressing an entire generation of people, multiple gen. I mean, not generations is like boomers and zoomers or whatever. that But I mean, like everybody who's alive using the Internet right now is fucking depressed about it.
00:14:39
Speaker
And that's by design. it was amazing when we get on Instagram and then and and you would hit that moment and they would say you're all caught up. Remember that? And you're like, cool.
00:14:50
Speaker
Okay, I guess I'll go back out and do stuff. and right But they intentionally turned it into like a digital casino. Now you don't know what time it is and you're just like, there's no end. And then even like, I have been on it long enough to be like, I've seen, you've already shown me this.
00:15:06
Speaker
We've seen this in the explore tab. Well, I've already liked it. I've already saved it to my lamps but you know folder. Like, why am I seeing this again? Right. And yet I'm still there. mean, there's another one, you know, like it's gross. But also when you delete it and get off of it, you'll start getting advertisements for it.
00:15:25
Speaker
which is interesting. oh sure. Because they're like, you're missing out. And then also i am severely punished because I still have to post about future killer and stuff every now and then I'm about to play a and just a little solo show for a flood relief um benefit.
00:15:40
Speaker
And I'll need to get on mine and talk about that. And I, I mean, I did this recently when we announced a a big show with future killer and it was like 30 people liked it. And it's like, wow. You know, that was not our numbers pre me deleting it.
00:15:54
Speaker
They're like, naughty, naughty, you're not playing our game. We won't delete anybody. you gotta to You got to earn your way back, you know Exactly. It's crazy. No, that's crazy. And I actually, it's funny that you mentioned that because, you know, I haven't deleted my social media. I have been very active on social media.
00:16:11
Speaker
And something that I noticed on Instagram on Sunday. So a thing that I've been doing lately is because obviously my meme page is very music focused, pop music focused, whatnot.
00:16:21
Speaker
And so in my stories, what I've been doing, I was like, well, now that Instagram has that music feature where you can like add whatever song, you know, to your story, essentially, as long as it's in their library. I've been doing like, you know, what I've been listening to lately and just kind of sharing just random songs that I've been either rediscovering or just listening to.
00:16:41
Speaker
And I do it several times a week for whatever reason. Whenever I do that, it suppresses my engagement. So just to like kind of put it into comparison, when I post a story, it will get anywhere between 3,000 to 6,000 views. I have 118,000 followers, right?
00:17:05
Speaker
And so, and that story will last for 24 hours. So the it can accumulate up to like, sometimes it's even like 7,000 views. Mm-hmm. When I'm doing this with the music, and let's say I share eight to 10 stories in a row of different songs that I've been listening to lately, it will get maybe 500 views. So huge.
00:17:26
Speaker
And I'm like, I'm utilizing the tools that you are providing. you are You essentially are encouraging your users to use the music that is in your platform to apply to their stories or reels or whatever.
00:17:40
Speaker
And you're punishing me for it. Is it because it's not like the popular song currently in in fad, you know? That potentially could be it. But it's like, it's it's just one of those weird things where it's kind of like...
00:17:54
Speaker
In all of their, cause I've been trying to research, like, how can I like make my account grow more and
Mental Health and Social Media
00:18:00
Speaker
things like that? And they are very much into like, use the tools that are within our platform.
00:18:05
Speaker
Right. Like I got a story about that. And it's just, and I'm just kind of like, it's weird. And I'm like, do you think that I'm spamming people? Like, am I doing too many of them? I just, yeah. Like too many hashtags. Remember when that was the whole thing?
00:18:20
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I think were the one who told me like, keep it eight. Cause anymore they'll think you're spamming. Right. Yeah. And it's, I'm not even using hashtags and I might at people like, especially if they're like an independent artist or whatever, I'll try to like tag them in the, in the story and whatnot.
00:18:36
Speaker
um But yeah, I don't know. It's really weird. And, and I'm, it's And it's not like ah it's not like you get ah violation or like a notice or anything. It's not like they're like, oh, we think that your account's been hacked or whatever.
00:18:51
Speaker
They just are like, nope, we're just going to suppress all of your content and it's not going to be able to be seen. That's a big thing. It's like they do that and the and the fact that so much of this happens in the shadows. I mean, it's it's from small things like that. like You know, which can feel bigger, especially if you're like really trying, you know, like with what you do or like if anyone's out there is, you know, they have a small business or an artist band, whatever, like musician, like, you know, yeah this's it's become crucial because everyone goes to these platforms for their information now.
00:19:24
Speaker
um Right. And, you know, like when I made those something videos, the first few I did, I edited it. I edited those within Instagram's app. And when I started, i got a different video editing software from my phone and I uploaded the first few that were just that were made on that. And so all I did was just upload according to Instagram. It's just a singular video file. They're like, and that got suppressed because I wasn't using their tools, which is crazy.
00:19:51
Speaker
But I think. You know, it's like all this stuff, like I said, it happens in the shadows and that's intentional. And it's like, I mean, I'll even go back to this. Like, and don't think people want to be on their phones as much as they on their phones.
00:20:03
Speaker
Do like heroin users want to bang heroin in an alley somewhere? No, they have to like, yeah, they're they're fucking addicted to it. And so they're like going back to the the watering hole looking for, you know, that hit again, because without it, they're like, it's way worse.
00:20:21
Speaker
And I think we're in a similar spot, but we don't talk about it enough. Like, we yeah I think there will be, hopefully, if we progress and, like, continue to grow and evolve and be better civilization beyond this point in time, then we will look back at this period and be like, that is wild.
00:20:36
Speaker
Like, people were just so unknowingly trapped in these. Because we define things, like, use particularly addiction, as mainly chemical, like, physiological addiction. It's, like, the that's the most recognized addiction in our world.
00:20:51
Speaker
You know, it's, like, we don't really... We do talk about mental addictions and you know things that like happen from whatever, you know feeling good, our own internal chemistry, but it's usually the external chemistry that we're talking about with addiction. But like this is a new wave era. It is definitely that internal...
00:21:09
Speaker
you know There are internal chemicals that are you know that are dopamines firing off every time we get a little bling bling and our likes are – we get more like numbers and stuff. But like – Yeah. I mean it's – yeah.
00:21:19
Speaker
it's just It's just a matter of time. It's before like – if that information is not suppressed by an authoritarian ruling body, which could and may or may not be developing. Right.
00:21:32
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because I remember back in the 2020 election that week I had gained 6,000 followers that in one week, well that's the most I've ever gained in one week and and algorithms and social media change shortly after that, because I remember seeing a huge drop in engagement after that week.
00:21:51
Speaker
Um, But i remember sharing that information with a friend and i remember her saying, wow, that's a lot of like stimulation and like dopamine. And I was like, yeah, I was like, it's crazy. And it's right now you're fucking on rocket. You're like, yeah, yeah. yeah And then, but then after that week when the engagement dropped, you're all of a sudden spiraling. i was spiraling in my head being like, well, what am I doing wrong?
00:22:21
Speaker
Why don't people like me? And I deal with that all the time now. And that's one of my, one of my biggest struggles of just being like, what, like I have to like kind of, step back and realize that like there's life outside of this one and actually that's all and the majority of everything ever is outside of it right yeah but it feels so big because it's like the whole world's in here and it's like everyone you know and love is on here like i have this beautiful moment it's been like four weeks now maybe since i've deleted it what's funny because it's actually on my phone because i have to post about some stuff yeah it's amazing how
00:22:58
Speaker
even when it's on there without thinking, I'll like touch it. And I'm like, no. And I look at it again. What's cool is the connection is broken. Cause I'll like realize I'm looking at the page again. I'm like, what am I doing here? How did get here? You know?
00:23:11
Speaker
But yeah i was talking to, um, Reagan who plays vibraphone and future killer. And one of the sweetest people, my best friends, I love her very much and a true genius of our time. Um, and she shared this, I don't think she'd mind me sharing this, but she shared this sweet thing about how like she'll make stuff.
00:23:29
Speaker
um and Because she's like me and that's like, oh, this is a window to communicate with people. So like, here's this cool animation or here's like this other funny video or here's like me talking serious or here's a song. And she was...
00:23:41
Speaker
and and so she was trying to acknowledge to herself that she'll like spend all this effort. And then sometimes she's like, well, look at the numbers and be like, where are these people that love me?
00:23:52
Speaker
They're not liking this or like sharing this or whatever. And, um, and it wasn't until she'd read a book, gosh, I wish I could remember the name of the book, but that she realized, Oh, it's because they're not seeing it.
00:24:04
Speaker
Like, yeah and that's like part of it's, it's a, it's like you're being kept from that. And B it's like, there's so much to see that, can you get to it all? But it's like the people that I spend the most time with, it has that data. It knows it, but just from who I send the most messages to and stuff, it doesn't like to show me their things right away. I have to kind of look for them, but also there is a carrot on a stick thing here, which actually scratched the analogy.
00:24:27
Speaker
This is the best one. This is like you go to a state fair or whatever, you know, some carnival scenario. Yeah. And you see a child wandering with a giant stuffed rabbit.
00:24:38
Speaker
You know, that child did not win that stuffed rabbit. That stuffed rabbit was bestowed to that child by the carny who was like, yeah, that one.
00:24:49
Speaker
And they like let the game happen and win. Hey, kid, you got the big rabbit. Congratulations. So now the beginning that day, that kid's wandering through the carnival with the giant rabbit so all of us can look at the child with the rabbit and say that could be me and then you sco see the game with the giant rabbit and you go so there's the game with the giant rabbit i'm gonna try and then you're like 30 in trying to i don't know flick up a coin at a bucket or something whatever parties like you to make it like you to do ah You know, but it's it's rigged.
00:25:19
Speaker
And so you just keep going and going. And eventually like that halfway, you know, couple hours like that kid's probably gone. Let's get another kid, another giant bunny. And so then everyone in the new cycle of people are like, there's another kid with a fucking rabbit.
00:25:31
Speaker
And that is us. And like who like makes it on social media. There is there was a period of more organic things exploding and people like whatever. But now it's like anything in the information age. There's so much data at the people's fingertips that if you want to try to manipulate that data or use it to your advantage, people will in this horrible way.
00:25:52
Speaker
And that's like, that's through this. So like you, you do well with one of your posts, you're getting a lot of engagement. That's great. You are feeling all that stimulation, all that dopamine. You're like, well, I'm on, I'm on cloud nine here.
00:26:05
Speaker
And then, then it, if but if you kept doing that, maybe you wouldn't try as hard, but then it drops and you're like, what am I doing wrong? How can I, And then you'll, you'll have like more posts and do more stuff and try harder because then you're going like, Oh, let's, got get that back up there.
00:26:21
Speaker
You're the dude doing heroin in the alley now. Like, I got to feel good again. I got to get back. Why and this was working. Why is it not working? You know? And right. It's designed. Do not think it is not designed. It is and incredibly well designed and it lives primarily in the shadows.
00:26:37
Speaker
Even down another quick thing ah before I'm done on this rant. Reagan had told me that this book she was reading, again, in wish she could remember the name. YouTube is apparently, this has been like a whistleblower has like spoken about this, someone who worked there. It's like, you want to like search for your video of like how to replace this particular fuse in your make and model of your vehicle.
00:26:57
Speaker
Like they'll give you the video of the of the guy who's like, in 1983, I as took my family across the country and like this long rambling thing that maybe kind of gets there somewhere in there.
00:27:08
Speaker
So you're on the app longer and you got to watch two more ads before you get to it versus the video of like the one woman who's like, it's right here. You go this, it's there. Boom, you're done. You know, like, right. Yeah. It's like.
00:27:19
Speaker
It's designed to keep us there longer because they, they also, they, they realize we all want to be there because it's where we all are. It's not about them. It's about us. That's the most beautiful thing about it. It's about us.
00:27:31
Speaker
All my friends are there. That's why I want to be there. I don't give a fuck about Mark Zuckerberg or any of it, you know, but They also want to capitalize on it. And the best way to do that is to advertise to us. They've been selling our data for a long time.
00:27:44
Speaker
But the next thing, the most immediate, obvious thing, less of the shadows is all the crazy advertisements now. And, you know, it's nuts. All the ad, especially on YouTube, the amount of ads.
00:27:56
Speaker
Just in the last like year, the way it's it's just like. And you'll be like 30 seconds in and they'll show you'll have ah an ad at the beginning. Then like I've watched so many times it's like 30 seconds, a minute in and it's another ad. I'm just like, what are we, what are we doing here? It's like the amount of ads and like TV when we were growing up, but instead of it being like an hour long show or something, it's compressed into like a three minute video. so it's still like all the same amount of ad breaks. Right. god It's crazy. And then especially if you're watching like a longer form video. I don't need the Alice.
00:28:27
Speaker
It's like, it's like if you're watching a long form video, it's like all of a sudden you have 48 seconds to a minute of ads that you can't skip.
00:28:38
Speaker
you're You're forced to watch it or you're forced to watch 45 seconds of that minute and then you can skip. And it's just like, yeah, that so much has changed in just the last like couple of years.
00:28:49
Speaker
It's nuts. I can't stand it So what does this have to do with pop music? Great question. 30 minutes and we're like just rambling about social media. Well, the reason why i wanted you on Alex is because you and I, when we were home for Thanksgiving, had a really good conversation about what is pop music. And this stemmed from the previous show. I had my friend Jesse on and Jesse and I were talking about like, what is pop music? And it actually stemmed from that conversation, but it also stems from the conversation that you and I had.
Exploration of Pop Music
00:29:26
Speaker
i think it was not last Thanksgiving, but the Thanksgiving before, because we were driving in my car and we were listening. I was introducing you to a musician that i like named Z Machine. and And we were listening to a song, the radio.
00:29:41
Speaker
And I remember you calling it a pop song. And I thought that was interesting because Machine is an independent artist and pop music implies, well I guess the definition of pop music is, it's it's a shortened version of popular, right?
00:29:58
Speaker
So whatever is popular, quote unquote, on the radio or what is on streaming or whatever, whatever. But it's interesting because Z Machine or like there's a plethora of artists that are not getting played on the radio because either they're independent or whatever.
00:30:15
Speaker
but make music that one would consider pop. And it just got me kind of thinking like, what is pop music? Because when I look at all the artists that I listened to and the actual sound of their songs, it's so different. And I think that when we were talking about this is that, you know, you've got, i'll just use these examples. You have baby one more time by Britney Spears.
00:30:37
Speaker
You have complicated by Avril Lavigne. And then you have Madonna's Vogue. All considered pop songs, all very different sonically. and And so I just have found- of those are in a very similar time period, whereas one is older. Yeah.
00:30:55
Speaker
Well, yes, but I would say that Madonna's Vogue is very much in the style of like house music, especially early 90s house music. yeah oh yeah Britney Spears' Baby One More Time is your quintessential Y2K Max Martin dance pop song. um Like teen pop, bubblegum pop.
00:31:13
Speaker
And then you've got Avril Lavigne's Complicated, which one would probably consider quote-unquote pop rock, if you will, right? Right. Alt pop. al all yeah I don't know about alt pop, but like, but like, you know, they're all just very different sonically as far as like the instrumentation and the way that they sound, but they're all still considered pop songs.
00:31:39
Speaker
just remember Levine wrote that song while she was doing a maze at a Denny's? Really? maze? Like, what do you mean? Yeah. but Are you serious? No. She had a crayon. She's like, oh, it's so complicated. Just kidding.
00:31:51
Speaker
just been I just don't want to get too far away from that joke. It's so good. She's in there scratching her head. God. do you have to go and make things so complicated? Complicated. oh my God. Seriously.
00:32:06
Speaker
But you know what I'm saying? Like, I find it really interesting. And the fact that I mean, I would I would argue that both of us, the way that we've gotten into music is because of dad and his love of music and his, I would say, plethora of tastes that he had. Yeah. have you talked about his music on the show already?
00:32:27
Speaker
I have talked about it on the very first episode. i did like a reintroduction episode, if you will. And I had John Michael interview me and just kind of ask me random questions. And one of the questions was like, how did you get into music? And I mentioned dad and I was just like, you know, our, our dad is, or was a huge music fan in the sense of like, I don't know ah another person who owned more CDs than him.
00:32:53
Speaker
Like, i would are I would say thousands of CDs um at one point. And and they used to vinyls and we threw them all in the backyard as children when he got the CDs.
00:33:04
Speaker
Nuts. We destroyed probably first pressings, things that would be like $100. Right. We were throwing like Frisbees. Nuts. Absolutely Because he was also that kind of guy too. was like, new thing, I'm done with you old thing.
00:33:17
Speaker
ah Right, yeah. since Especially for music. He was like, I don't want to store all these vinyls and CDs or arguably the higher quality. And he's like, I can get a lot more in this cabinet than, you know, right yeah four CDs per one vinyl.
00:33:31
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And so I don't know, like it's and it's interesting, too, because when you think of like how then we establish our own musical tastes, you and i like I definitely gravitated to the.
00:33:47
Speaker
I would definitely say like the more dance pop realms that he would listen to to us. And then I would argue that you definitely went down the more rock alternative route that he would listen to.
00:34:00
Speaker
um But then I don't know We also have like middle ground as well. But yeah, we're at Al Yankovic, our first concert. um fake her through middle ground That is so crazy.
00:34:13
Speaker
That is crazy. I like, I have like almost, I have almost have no memory of that concert. Me too. I remember he switched costumes. That was cool. Remember at one point he was Santa Claus. At one point he was fat out.
00:34:26
Speaker
I don't even remember that. I think the only thing that I remember is i reverse i remember meeting him. i remember, what did he say to Sean? It was something like- i In the line, I was like, I'm going to say I've been waiting for this moment my whole life.
00:34:42
Speaker
And then I got up there first and I froze. so I was just like- And like I kind of shuffle along. And then Sean's like, my turn. I've been waiting for this moment my whole life, sir. And then he's like, well, let's go bonkers. It's such an awesome thing. but I'm sure Sean just dead stared him after that, just like smiling. And then he was like, okay.
00:35:06
Speaker
ah Right. child Next child. i I remember getting his autograph. i remember meeting him. I remember him doing his parody of TLC's waterfalls.
00:35:16
Speaker
Phony calls. Yeah. Phony calls. Yes, yes, yes. And that's, that's all I remember of it. Yeah. That is all I remember. I don't know. I don't have much either. Yeah. There's videos while he was changing pretty astute little kid, honestly, as I'm, ah as as as I'm examining this memory, remember realizing that the videos are being played while he was changing costumes.
00:35:37
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. i would Play little clips of some the videos or whatever. Yeah. That was our first concert, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're like, don't even know. Unless we count Venetian Festival. Yeah. unless we count like venetian festival yeah Which I mentioned on, I think, the last episode. I mentioned how your band opened for Stacey Uriko at the Indonesian Festival. Hell yeah, What's up, Stacey? You out there? Stacey Uriko. You still doing it?
00:36:04
Speaker
I think that she's a yoga instructor now. God. I thought you were going to say she was dead. No. That's good. No, no, no. She's not dead. She's not dead. But she does not make music. she She stopped making music. She released one more album after that album that she toured um with. And then she retired from music.
00:36:20
Speaker
I guess I beat Stacey Uriko then, huh Who would have thunk? Who would have thunk? No big deal. Still at it. Still at it. Still at it.
00:36:33
Speaker
And you know what's interesting? like i don't i Yeah, I would love to actually interview her and like figure out why yeah she left the music history. Yeah. I know that she does like rare things once in while. Do you know who the singer Tori Kelly is?
00:36:46
Speaker
Mm-mm. Tori Kelly is an incredible vocalist and very underrated singer. um She's kind of, ah she's kind of gone pop. She's gone R and B she's gone gospel, but she actually did an Instagram live, I think at one point throughout the pandemic with Stacy Rico.
00:37:06
Speaker
And that was like her first like public appearance and like, God knows how long, but um yeah, she's, she doesn't do much anymore apparently, but yeah, But back to this pop music thing. like what You i said it there. You said pop. You said pop.
00:37:21
Speaker
And then you mentioned a couple other later genres. And I can't remember them because I just got so fixated on it. You said used pop as a genre there. Right. Yeah. And that's the thing that's so interesting because I think, especially these days, we get so hung up on genre. Right.
00:37:37
Speaker
Which I don't know, I feel like growing up and maybe this is just because the way that we were raised and maybe it was just because the way that like our tastes kind of gravitated, like obviously my favorite singer is Madonna, who's famous for reinventing her sound.
00:37:51
Speaker
And, you know, you know, she'll do she did her bedtime stories album, which was very much R&B inspired. And then the follow up album to that was Ray of Light, which is electronica and world music.
00:38:04
Speaker
And then Bowie are so good at being themselves, but in ah many facets. So it's always them somehow, but then it's like, oh my God, it's like completely different, but it's still sounds like a them. and it sounds like the record, they're not emulating anything, you know, they're not like trying to be something. They're just, they're just like expressing themselves with this different sheen, this different dressing.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah. And i I agree because I think that that's a huge part of it. But then there's, but I feel like today more than ever, even though like with streaming, there's a lot of positives I think that can happen. I think that, you know, obviously newer artists and independent artists can it have kind kind of, you know, do their own thing and build their own followings. And they there's a lot more chances of,
00:38:50
Speaker
self-promotion and exposure through social media and things like that. But at the same time, I feel like there's this weird expectation now that like artists have to be one thing, especially in the pop music scene, and you have to have one sound and you can't really deviate from that. And i think that's why Beyonce has gotten so much controversy with her cowboy carter album well think that's also like laced with lots of racism as well and her being a black woman and you know black people doing country music but you know people really even before cowboy carter beyonce has gotten a lot of criticism about switching up her styles and sounds with her albums and i don't know i just find the the conversation about genre fascinating i find the conversation about pop music fascinating
00:39:33
Speaker
So to you, Alex W.G. Rickle, what do you think, what is pop music to you? And is it its own genre or do you think it's a broader term?
00:39:44
Speaker
I think it was a broad term for a long time until like late nineties, early two thousands. I think it became a genre.
00:39:56
Speaker
Okay. It then and there is like, and you kind of said some bubble gum pop earlier. Cause there is like that. There's like a sheen to it all. But I think it's also part of like, it's like, it's become self-aware, you know, it's like,
00:40:13
Speaker
there' It's not just like whatever it hits and you know then we're chasing it, but now it's like we know these certain things hit and it's even like, it doesn't have to even all sound the same, but there are certain like melodies and and phrasings of things and like chord progressions that like...
00:40:31
Speaker
that all work to serve like a hit making machine. That's like not even talking about people who are good because people who are like talented will all do that sort of stuff too. And they may have a crew of people helping them do that. But then you'll see like, it's more about like the, everything on the, the peripheral of it, you know, it's like how everyone's trying to emulate it.
00:40:50
Speaker
And you see like this weird distilled version of it in the, cheap imitations that's kind of how where you look for the caricature of the thing you know because it's like it's an impression like like you you think of someone doing an impression of somebody a president that you don't like you know like what are they doing there's a lot of big hand moves or whatever you know it's like sure so i think somewhere in there pop music became like You know, you had like digital things coming into the 80s and the 90s. It started getting refined. And then it was like something snapped with like recording technology and consumerism and like you like getting it out to people, whether that was like just...
00:41:31
Speaker
you know, very, very early internet to like, you know, like early, like popular internet to like, there's something all in that big symphony of things happening that created pop the genre.
00:41:42
Speaker
And then it's still hard to put an actual finger on it because it has many faces, you know, but. Yeah. I think that you're, I think that you're spot on with like, especially in the nineties, late nineties, there was a shift. Yeah.
00:41:57
Speaker
There was a shift. There was something that happened, i would say, like 1997. And I always talk about on this podcast, like 1997, 98, and 99 being like kind of like my sweet spot as far as like and and as a time in music. But I do feel like...
00:42:14
Speaker
in those years leading up to Y2K of it all, there was like this perfect marriage of like MTV, TRL, as you mentioned, consumerism, because TRL was kind of like you called in and or you went on the internet and requested your favorite video and there would be a countdown and and you'd see like where did your favorites land and then they would do video premieres.
00:42:34
Speaker
And then that was also the age of like you had the Britney Spears. Reality TV was coming in too. reality tv but you had like your boy bands you had all of these things where then it was like everything was kind of marketed and tied together and then fans would go out to the stores and make sure to buy the album because they wanted their favorites to have their you know million selling first week sales type of thing It was such a really fun and exciting time, a very interesting time where it just like something happened, something clicked where just it was like the perfect amalgamation of all of that kind of coming together to create that time period.
00:43:13
Speaker
Yeah. Britney Spears, I think, is a big like. And the aunt her and obviously Christina Aguilera and the whole plethora of boy bands and like that.
00:43:24
Speaker
started it, I think it was in that, which is hard not to acknowledge like how designed that was too. There's a whole, there's a lot of people trying to sell you something. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that's, and which is like, it's always, someone's always been trying to sell you something since day one, and you know, its every, since recorded music was available. It's like, it's been the game.
00:43:42
Speaker
And it's always been a balance between like the someone who's like, we're putting the money down so you can record this and and we got to get it back, you know, and the people who are like, I'm just trying to express myself and I'd love to do it for thousands of people for a living, you know, there's always going to be tension there. But there's yeah, there's something about.
00:44:00
Speaker
Where we were, everyone was riding high at the end of the 90s. Everyone had a lot of money. Lots of money. Well, I was talking about that with someone where I was like, I i i missed that era because I felt like, obviously it was pre-social media. Okay, Zach, get your red hat out. Jeez, Ew! No! No! by Gross.
00:44:23
Speaker
But like it everything felt like an event. And I think that with social media, the we because we now see the day-to-day of everything, it kind of...
00:44:34
Speaker
What am I trying to say? Like the magic is kind of gone in a way, whereas like in that time period, you know, especially with like the yeah ah TRL, I mean, we used to run home and and watch that, or at least I did. and I know I did too. I mean, I remember being like the offspring are going on this week, you know? Right.
00:44:49
Speaker
Because it was, again, it was something for everybody. Like there are times someone you wanted to see was going to be on there and give a shit. And then all sudden somebody like Glenn Biscuit was going to be on. I'm like, oh, hell yeah, dude. probably going swear on the microphones. Right.
00:45:00
Speaker
and Right. Yeah. And this is like, just this is just to show everyone like Alex and I is different tastes. Like, obviously I was very much into the Brittany, Christina, Madonna, Backstreet Boys, like of it all. And like, as you just said, it was, you were offspring, you were corn, you were live biscuit. There's a brief period of that. I wanted to find myself like that.
00:45:18
Speaker
Well, right. Yeah. Let's say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. Uh, he, Alex is Zach's brother, a band. I don't know. He likes like corn. Yeah.
00:45:31
Speaker
I'm not going listen to his band future killer. They probably sound like Limp Bizkit we don't guys. they No, not at all. Not at all. But you know, and that's what's, it's, but it's, what's interesting though, because then when you think back to that time and you think about what was on TRL, everyone we just mentioned, right.
00:45:51
Speaker
Yeah. All very different sounding. I w I could, argue you could argue that at that time period, Korn, Limp Bizkit were also considered pop, 100%. was huge.
00:46:03
Speaker
That new butt metal, new wave butt metal, whatever. You couldn't get rid of it. Yeah. And then you had obviously your Backstreet Boys and Christina and whatnot. that was It's more of the traditional, but what I would say what people would think of what pop is. Okay, so here's a question.
00:46:20
Speaker
When I say ah pop song, what's the first thing that comes to your mind when I say pop song? It's pretty spurious every time, I think. Really? I mean, it's just that is like, yeah.
00:46:31
Speaker
Every time Britney Spears, her song every time or like aren't just her. No, I didn't know there was a song called every time. notice yeah It's like she is an icon of that for me.
00:46:42
Speaker
I think she did it so well, you know, but it's yeah. Yeah. Is there it's a thing too? It's like, what what would it be? if you didn't call it pop music, what would you call it? Cause like Rage Against the Machine fucking is rock, but they were also huge.
00:46:57
Speaker
Nirvana was grunge, grunge rock. Right. But they were the most popular band in the world for a stretch, you know? Yeah. Like, so what would you call Britney Spears without pop?
00:47:10
Speaker
I mean, one could argue dance music, but I, you know, you could also like, but i you know you could also like It's the funny thing with genre to quote Linda Martel.
00:47:22
Speaker
ah Genres are funny little concept, aren't they? But like, what is dance music then? Right. Because I think of like when I think of dance music, I kind of instantly think of like the uns uns quote unquote beat. about Right. Uns, uns, uns.
00:47:36
Speaker
But that's not Britney does have some of those songs, but the majority of them are not like that. Right. You've got and that's what's fascinating about Britney, too. Similar to Madonna, is that like, you know, you have a song like Baby One More Time, right? That Donna that with the piano um with this like I would say it's probably 90s sounding piano, too. Right. I know when that song come out. 1998 was the very end of 98. And then the album came out early to early 1999.
00:48:06
Speaker
And, but then you have her song, I'm a slave for you, which is very much like in the ah early two thousands, it was produced by the Neptunes very much like r and B hip hop and style.
00:48:20
Speaker
And then you have a song like this. I don't know if you're familiar with the song, but it's called breathe on me, which was on her 2003 album, which was not popular in the postcovit area area now yeah the post COVID area Right, right, right. um That song is very like your Euro dance, if you will, right? It's a very like, very like minimalist, throbby, pulsating beat type of song.
00:48:46
Speaker
yeah All very different sound. And, i but all considered pop, right? Because she's Britney Spears. So, Yeah, it's it's a fascinating thing. i too, whenever I think of like pop music, I think Britney Spears is the first person to come to mind because I think that she really did embody this new package, if you will, as you kind of talked about earlier of what pop music is.
00:49:13
Speaker
Her and like, and then like, you know, if I think of specifically like what is a pop song, I would say both Baby One More Time and Backstreet Boys, I Want It That Way are kind of like- Oh oh my God, yeah.
00:49:26
Speaker
Right. Right. That was everything. It was huge. Yeah. Huge. Did you watch SNL 50 chance? I just saw, I just watched a clip. I didn't watch the whole thing. I just watched the, the weekend update clip just like an hour. Okay.
00:49:39
Speaker
So on Friday they did like a homecoming concert where they had a bunch of former musical guests come on the show and perform and Backstreet Boys was one of them and the out and they, they performed, I want it that way. And every everyone, like every person was singing every word to that song.
00:49:57
Speaker
And it was just like, what yeah did they, what did they want? And in what way? great question. there is Is that established in the song? No. and Well, actually, so he i don't know how true this is, but this is what is on the internet that i that is... Doggy style sex, isn't it? Right. and They wanted sex and they wanted doggy style.
00:50:21
Speaker
Exactly. that From what know, I want it that way. The version that we know was not intended to be the actual version on the album.
00:50:34
Speaker
yeah I believe what happened was there was so much hype and anticipation for the Backstreet Boys album to come out. From my understanding, i think that I want it that way somehow leaked and got into the hands of a radio DJ and put it on the radio.
00:50:54
Speaker
And when it really, it was more of a concept demo where Max Martin was going to change the lyrics later and to make it make more sense. I believe they even recorded a new version with that like that. oh Cool.
00:51:09
Speaker
But because the version that we know kind of took off and because it was, again, it was more of a concept demo. So they were kind of just putting words together and they were like, we'll fix this later and make it actually make sense. And, but it took off. And so that's the version that we know. i I would don't quote me on that. Everyone, like I would need to like research that a little bit more to see if that's actually factual, but like, ah yeah, that's a really cool story.
00:51:32
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And right. And so, yeah, but to answer your question, I think they do want doggy style sex. Yeah. they went And they want it raw.
00:51:43
Speaker
They want it just like absolutely raw, just raw dog. That's hilarious. yeah I think there's a really interesting thing you're hitting on there. Whether it's true in that story or not, it's true in life. that like A lot of songs i have written, they start by i you know i'm like but point I'm making music.
00:52:04
Speaker
you know Whether it's on a piano or a guitar or I've assembled some drum machines and playing bass or we're just jamming with the band and I'm listening to back on an instrumental jam and I'm hearing whatever it is, there's something already
Lyrics, Sound, and Music Consumption
00:52:18
Speaker
going. And then my, and then a melody comes to mind just with like nonsense sounds or words. And then, then you so open your mind up for words. And sometimes those words come out and they don't make any sense, but they sound kind of good together. and so I'll leave them. And then it's whether I'm listening later or as I'm writing it down um,
00:52:36
Speaker
um i've just it's I've just left it and it's as a place marker, like you're saying. And then it's like, it takes a minute. Sometimes it's, I don't care. Sometimes I'm like, you know, the gist of the song is elsewhere, but these lyrics sounded good.
00:52:51
Speaker
yeah Like in one of our songs, I say, um Speechless drifts in pyramid malls. That was just like something that came out of my mouth, like truly like, wow I don't know, I just popped out. And then the longer I've sat with that, it's become such a rich texture. And it's like, it talks about society and just like how we like worship capitalism and like,
00:53:14
Speaker
These speechless drifts, this thing that means nothing, yet it's like building and collecting everywhere. It can get blown by the breeze. you know And these pyramid malls have obsessed with trying to see this giant glass pyramid that looks like the architecture of a mall made in the 90s that's kind of abandoned. And you know all these shitty...
00:53:35
Speaker
food stores and jewelry stores and things, you know, all just sort of left in there. um And so there's something about, don't know, that's a magic of, of you just have to kind of put words out there.
00:53:47
Speaker
And that's not to say like, please write good songs, you know, try, right but like also sometimes you can let it be abstract and then everyone else will find the meaning. Like, trust me, give me some lyrics. Yeah.
00:54:00
Speaker
And if I will think you meant something and I will think about it and try to figure it out for myself. And you may just be like, nah, man, I was just like pointing randomly at a book, you know, and doesn't matter. It now means something to me in my life, you know? Right. Yeah.
00:54:14
Speaker
Well, I think that you bring up something really interesting too about pop music is that pop music oftentimes gets criticized for being simple and, kind of straightforward and to the point and not interesting and things like that. But I think that the what we've seen time and time again throughout history is that some of the biggest, most well-known pop songs are these really catchy songs that have weird lyrics interesting choruses interesting hooks like i'm right now i'm thinking of lady gaga obviously bad romance with like a rah rah ah you know right and the uh marker or you know and then she's like actually that kind of rips you know just leave it
00:54:55
Speaker
you know Right, yeah. Or her new song. I don't know if you've heard her new single, Abracadabra. But um the chorus goes, Abracadabra, Abra-unana. And then it's like like all these you know silly kind of lyrics. And then the the hook of the song is like, Abracadabra, Abracadabra.
00:55:13
Speaker
And she like does all these like crazy things with her voice. but i'm like And it's her biggest hit in years right now. And it's it's like... this is what makes pop music really interesting and fun.
00:55:26
Speaker
It's like, it's not always going to be super straight and narrow and just to the point, like it's oftentimes really weird and quirky and very, you know, you, you kind of put things together that you wouldn't necessarily think would work.
00:55:40
Speaker
Even like, even in a song like, I'm going to use this as an example, Taylor Swift's song, Style. remember watching the behind-the-scenes footage of her and Max Martin producing that song together. And there's like and there's like a Or how does it go?
00:55:58
Speaker
It's like kind of like a tape. Like you're clicking. It's kind of like when you're like hitting like a tape, ah hitting record, like on a cassette tape player. It's like, and then it's like, and I'll write your name.
00:56:10
Speaker
But he was like, leave that in there. It's so annoying. He was like, it's so annoying. People are going to love that. and it's going to, and it's going to drive them insane. And it he's right. It's like one of the best parts of the song It's just, it I can't explain why, but it works.
00:56:26
Speaker
And so. Music is sound. Yeah. It's all sound. And we forget that. We truly do. People think like, no, it's about like... Music is sound.
00:56:37
Speaker
Yeah. it's I mean, it's obvious and yet we overlook how simple that Yeah. People will often chase like prowess of some kind, whether you're writing or your performance and your particular instrument or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I mean, there's...
00:56:53
Speaker
um That Future Killer EP we just put out. i mean, there's loads of stuff tucked into it that is not me like shredding on a bass and singing. It's like yeah i my voice in the background when I was like waiting to sing. I'd be like, whoa.
00:57:08
Speaker
you know i'm like that is still in the recording and we like because we was one oh my god it was so funny matt and i are working on it and we're listening back to i think we're doing vocals and we heard this thing like in the kind of this little faint in the background it's just like we're like what is that and it was like it's cool the timing was cool and we like we're just trying we listened over and over again could not figure out what it was so and then we're just looking at the wave files on the in the recording software and And then we see it the three like three lines that are clearly the sound. you know And so we solo it, and it's on one of the vocal tracks when we play it. And it's me going, honk, honk, honk.
00:57:47
Speaker
It's so funny. you know we were just like, oh stay it stays. you know We had to like find the balance but by the time we're hitting like the final mix. you know Right, yeah. One of the mixes came back, and we were like, too loud. It was so obvious. Yeah. But when you don't know it's me going honk, honk, honk, but there's just this like thing in there that it tickles you in a way.
00:58:10
Speaker
And yeah, you're right. That that weird sounds like they'll carry it over that. You know what that kind of reminds me of is, so I'm really obsessed with the way that like songs break down into stems. Right.
00:58:22
Speaker
And, you know, you've got everything from the drum, different drum beats to, you know, synthesizers and guitar and and every vocals, background vocals, you know all the things. And,
00:58:34
Speaker
so Michael Jackson's, a bunch of his stems leaked onto the internet in recent years. And ah one of the songs is Scream, his song with Janet Jackson. And the layers that are in that song and the samples from his own songs and her songs that you'd have no idea are in there, yeah but all together create all of these really interesting sounds. Like it samples, I want to say, ah different beats from in the closet, his song in the closet, it samples ah stuff from her song, the knowledge um it samples. I want to say that there it also samples something from jam. Yeah.
00:59:13
Speaker
It's, That's really cool. They're sampling their own staff of that era. Yeah. All their different stuff, plus new instrumentation, plus all these different background vocals. I mean, like the layer, I think that they probably capped out on like the amount of layers that they could put on a song. It was crazy. Beatboxing.
00:59:30
Speaker
It was nuts. That's so cool. Yeah. And you just never would really know because of the way that things get mixed. And then you just, you know, it all comes together as one sound or you hear your ears here as one sound.
00:59:42
Speaker
Right. But yeah, that's gu the end of don't stop. till You get an enough. Whereas it's like it's just like that cool rhythm. You know, yeah it's like you can tell that somebody ah was like in hearing that probably Michael was like some at some point like that went on too long.
01:00:03
Speaker
And like the other things had fallen away. And he's like, boom, leave that. You know, like that's cool as it all deteriorated. And it was just because at the end of the tune where you really actually get to hear that so clear, you know. Yeah.
01:00:14
Speaker
Yeah. It's one of my favorite moments. I love that. I do i love when songs I love when there's a part of the song. That's my problem with like, i this is a dead horse that I beat every episode. But like, this is like my, my issue with, you know, we're getting to the part of the show where Zach beats off a dead horse. to bees We're beating it off. We're beating it off.
01:00:36
Speaker
But I can't stand short songs these days because it's so popular now to release a song that is like two to two and a half minutes at the most. yeah But you lose all of these really interesting parts of music that, you know, takes you on that journey, right?
01:00:53
Speaker
Pop song or not. Like I, I'm not saying, you know, right now I'm in like kind of a phase. and I think you are too, based on some of the music that you've released recently, but like I'm in a phase right now where I'm definitely listening to like long remixes that are like,
01:01:05
Speaker
seven, eight, nine, 10 minutes long. It's just something that I just. Most feature killer songs are like six to 10 minutes. So funny when we have like a set and someone's like 30 minutes and we're like, okay, three songs. It's not much.
01:01:19
Speaker
We'd like to go on. And a lot of instrumental stuff too, which is like, it's funny. Sometimes I laugh. I'm like, how do you, how do people fit so many lyrics into a song? And I realized it's because they're not doing all these big instrumental breaks and stuff, but like, you know, there was a period where i didn't realize that. i was like, what the fuck?
01:01:35
Speaker
you know right yeah but this is like five sentences and the song's like five and a half minutes right yeah but it's like ah you know that's to me and I think this is how we were raised with you know the artist that dad introduced us to and raised us on but like you know we like grew up listening to music that did have those like intros and outros and instrumental breaks and dance breaks and choruses and bridges and all those things and You just can't get that in two and a half minutes.
01:02:07
Speaker
Right. A guitar solo. Give me a guitar solo. Yeah. Why not? you Yeah. And give it to me in the middle of a Michael Jackson song. Why not? Why not? Exactly. Yeah. That's the thing was with like things that are so – this information age and predictability and like – you know, things that work and they have been successful. And I think for far too often people are chasing success and success only not the artists. It's generally like the ah money bag folks, you know? Yeah.
01:02:36
Speaker
And so they don't want, um you know to take any risks. And and then you get like attention spans shrinking like with Instagram you know and reels. And it's like, can you do it in 15 seconds? It's like, no.
01:02:52
Speaker
No, I can't. and and Or you know what I should say? i don't want to. you know right could try. And that's like, you know i i think I would do that with those something videos. I would make some that were like,
01:03:05
Speaker
you know i was trying to like get quick and it was fun because that's all it needed to be. It's cute. Play with it. But don't let it define you. It's not what you have to do. Because then here's my 30-second video that was charming.
01:03:16
Speaker
And you're like, whoa. But then that's going to prepare you for when I release a seven-minute video where I'm talking about like how hard it is to like feel like yourself some days. you know And that's where we're going to need to take some fucking time to talk about it.
01:03:32
Speaker
Right. You know, it's just like there's let's play with this new stuff, but let's not let it fully define us and become like and change our art, you know? Yeah. Well, I think what's real, like, I think just from a mathematical standpoint, because now instead of, you know, radio play or downloads or sales, it's all about streams, right?
01:03:54
Speaker
So if you think about it from a mathematical equation, because so many record labels and and management teams and whatnot, look at the amount of streams that someone gets. And if you look at, you know, if if you release a song, that's two minutes, you're going to listen to that song.
01:04:11
Speaker
Five times in 10 minutes versus the one 10 minute song. Right. So that 10 minute song will get one stream that two minute song will get will get five. And so so I understand it from a mathematical like, oh, I need to have X amount of streams. And unfortunately, these days, that's what's so important to all these people.
01:04:30
Speaker
And I mean, I know we're talking about music, but just kind of like to veer really quick, I saw a quick interview from Maya Hawk, Ethan Hawk and Uma Thurman's daughter. um She was talking about how nowadays in movies and and television shows, casting directors are given a quota, essentially. And i' I'm butchering this a little bit, but she's basically saying that like,
01:04:53
Speaker
when they're casting a cast, the cast as a collective has to have a certain amount of followers on Instagram. Oh my God. And so, cause she was talking about how she wants to delete her social media. And, and she said that one of the producers or casting directors or whomever said to her, and they were like, you know, it's like, listen, dude, like, well, they were like, you know, you make it fucked.
01:05:15
Speaker
Well, they were like, if you do that, we have to cast around the fact that then we've lost x amount of followers yeah because that's how they promote movies and stuff now. So I would assume that this is also a similar thing. I remember um an artist saying,
01:05:31
Speaker
This is a couple years ago now. I forget who it was, but they were saying like labels won't even consider releasing a song or a single unless it has so many views on TikTok. and And, you know, I know that a lot of artists have have kind of pushed back on the whole TikTok of it all.
01:05:49
Speaker
I know that I've expressed my frustrations the of it all. The TikTok of it all. It's your book. you're Right. But like the way that it's very traditional now for artists to tease a song on social media for a certain amount of weeks. Typically, it's usually around three to four weeks before they'll like, you know, kind of put a snippet out and maybe they'll put a second snippet out.
01:06:11
Speaker
Sometimes they'll even put a third snippet out and then they'll release the single within like three or four weeks. I under, I understand it from an independent artist's point of view and reasoning because that's how they get their music out. And that's, that's their only way that they can promote. Right. So I get that. That's, that's how the algorithm works.
01:06:30
Speaker
But at the same time, there was an artist recently that I love and I love the song, but the song is only two and a half minutes. And it's one of those like dance pop songs that is kind of just a little bit more on the repetitive side. So like the,
01:06:43
Speaker
two of the verses are the same. So when they released the snippets of the song and then the song actually came out, I was like, oh, we had the song already. yeah We just had to piece them together.
01:06:56
Speaker
And that made the release for me for me really anticlimactic. I was like like, I was like a trailer. And then you see the movie and you're like Oh my God, they showed me the whole movie. They they did have made, they've made a summary of a movie instead of just like a teaser and a trailer. Like I know what's happening. and No surprises left. Yeah. Yeah. summer yeah Yeah.
01:07:15
Speaker
People get lost in marketing and it's in the marketing numbers. And I think we gotta, we gotta to get a surefire hit. And so they like, they, they bank only on that instead of, like actual create like taking a risk on creativity which is like you know whatever you might make some some dollars if you're just playing it safe but you won't yeah it does look it does feel like at least pop music is starting to take a little bit of veer and a little bit of a turn um i have noticed that certain songs are starting to get a little bit longer again i think that but you know who knows i know that things are always
01:07:52
Speaker
kind of pushing and pulling and things shift and change all the time so i'm sure that there will be a time again where people will get tired of the two minute song of it all but we'll see we shall see i love how i i love how i started this episode by being like i'm so tired of people just like investing things that they dislike and then i spent like half of this episode talking about
01:08:13
Speaker
right there's well There's a difference between like being like like some constructive criticism about things. and you know Our goals here, like we're saying, what's your goal? What's your endgame?
01:08:24
Speaker
Our goal here is to like provide spaces and support for like solid creative work. you know yeah like Giving people the time that it deserves, whether that's to make it or to digest it. you know like That is valuable. and That is something that, even though everything is so fast for us these days,
01:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, that it doesn't necessarily mean that. I mean, let's be honest, our brains aren't capable of doing all that. We're dumb. Like we're worried. Are you we evolved on this planet for thousands and thousands and thousands of years without TV?
01:08:59
Speaker
You know, like surfing the Internet like that is insane. Like our world doesn't change that fast when all you have is like your feet to walk around.
01:09:10
Speaker
so um there's a certain point and it's amazing that we can look out into the world though and the internet is incredible i'm not knocking it it's just that like let's remember like who we are and there's so much joy and value and like sitting down with a book or a movie or an album and then it's cool that vinyls are getting some resurgence in some more like taylor swift sells vinyls that's unheard of you know what i mean like for a stretch of of pop music. It's cool because that I hope people are listening to him too.
01:09:40
Speaker
And if you are, then you know, like what that does it means you put on the record and you listen to side a and you make a choice. Am I going to listen to side B or put on side a or B of something else? You know, it's like, right. Sometimes when we are, me and my friends are listening to records, we will like, Oh, let's put on that one track. That's like the third track on the B side or something.
01:10:00
Speaker
But for the most part, we put on at least a full side, if not a full record. yeah And you're then sitting with something and like, this is what it takes to enjoy it. I'm going to sit in it and enjoy it. Like the most recent piece of music I released was a 20 minute long ambient piece.
01:10:16
Speaker
Yes. Sit and listen to that. Right, exactly. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, as mom would say. She would say that. She was a heavy pipe smoker.
01:10:26
Speaker
A heavy pipe on heavy on the pipe smoking. um Well, before we get to songs we don't talk about enough, Alex, you have something very exciting that's coming up, which I'm really excited for you for. You are... a dude Do you want to say?
01:10:39
Speaker
you go ahead. You are opening for My Morning Jacket in Louisville. I am. That is so fucking cool. Yeah. So when i when you had released the poster, I only saw one date. yeah Are there multiple dates?
01:10:52
Speaker
So Future Killer is playing on the 26th. and it's And then the Friday, the 25th, before then, we're playing as Lacey Guthrie in The Flower-Eating Monster, which Lacey is one of my closest friends and collaborators in town. and She makes incredible music.
01:11:13
Speaker
Um, and so we often act as her
Live Performance Experiences
01:11:17
Speaker
backing band. So it's like, and there's a few extra members and other things. Um, so it's like future killer is one thing. And then the flower eating monsters and other things. So we'll all be up there playing, but it'll be ah different person singing different songs and it has a different, totally different vibe, you know, but, um, and then the 26th future killer night will be me laughing into a microphone for everybody.
01:11:39
Speaker
Oh my gosh. It's so exciting. yeah very exciting Where in Louisville is this being? is like I'm so glad you asked. It's at the palace theater, which is like the most magical theater. I think I've ever been to. It looks like you're in the, in your, in the seats and there's, there's a kind of your main floor and there's a balcony and no matter what, there's not a bad seat because,
01:12:02
Speaker
You look at the stage and it looks as if it's like a stage that's outside in like some old world square in like an old city. Like literally there's like fake building facades and stuff all around it. And then the ceiling looks like.
01:12:18
Speaker
dark sky, like it's a very dark blue and there's like pinpoints of light using fiber optic cables to look like stars in the sky. And there's giant like statues of like, you know, Grecian looking women and togas and shit. It is, and I mean, it's so surreal and magical and it's like, it's, you know, playing with ah my morning jacket is awesome. There are some great friends, some of best friends in the world.
01:12:44
Speaker
And that's exciting. But I think we'd all agree that the most exciting thing is probably that we all just get to play in the palace for a few nights, you know, like that is, it is truly the such a magical stage. And I couldn't, yeah, the whole thing is incredible. And I just feel like the, the fattest boy in the picnic currently.
01:13:02
Speaker
I love that. Oh my God. That's so cool. Well, everyone get your tickets. They're to, are they sold out yet? I think they're all sold out. Yeah. Okay. Well, scalp your tickets, scalp them.
01:13:14
Speaker
They did add some extra dates that we aren't playing, but some other incredible musicians in Louisville are playing our friend Maggie Haffman and 10th street Dre and.
01:13:26
Speaker
maybe Very cool. Well, congratulations. That's so exciting. you would love You would love Maggie, by the way. Maggie's from Wisconsin, and she's one of my closest pals around here, too. And and mean we have a lot of laughs about being northerners down in south.
01:13:42
Speaker
love that. She also makes incredible music. And it would be an interesting... um debate in terms of pop music because she makes like music that feels like it's it's still her voice in modern but it does also feel like it's ripped out of like late 90s like like interesting yeah it's cool you should check her out maggie haffman Maggie Huffman.
01:14:06
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, I will. I love that. Well, it's gotten to the point in the show where we always like to end every episode where we talk about each of us talks about a song that we don't talk about enough. Typically it's an album track bonus cut. Maybe it's a remix. Maybe it's like a special track that was like released on like the Japanese version of an album.
01:14:27
Speaker
What, whichever Alex, do you have a song that we don't talk about enough? I do. i had I thought about this a lot and I went through a few things and there's some good choices, but I think I really want to talk about it's my life and it's not the one you think.
01:14:45
Speaker
Okay. It's by the original people who wrote the song originally, Talk Talk. Do you know Talk Talk? Yes. only know who they are because of It's My Life, the No Doubt version.
01:14:58
Speaker
Yeah. But, oh my gosh. I mean, and that band, too, talk about pop music. They were like synth pop. Their first two records are considered like 81, 82, 82, 83, I think those two records came out.
01:15:13
Speaker
And it's my life was their big like when they're big breakout hit. Yeah. And such a shame, I think, was the other really big hit. But, um you know, Mark Hollis's voice is really interesting. And when you look at him sing.
01:15:29
Speaker
He looks like he's screaming as loud as he can. His voice, his face is red and is all like strained, but his voice is awesome. But it never breaks. It's always very soft and round.
01:15:40
Speaker
It's bizarre. So you hear him singing. You think he's just like chill. And then you see him sing and he's like giving it all. It's incredible. Yeah. But that, you know, just with this whole like you're the concept of your show and and everything, I thought that was maybe not just that song, which is an incredible tune. Listen to it, particularly if you're a fan of the original one. But I would hope that it would be a gateway.
01:16:03
Speaker
to their wider catalog because that is right they're a master class in some really interesting like pop music in that it's catchy it's melodic in a way that it gets stuck in your head with interesting lyrics and subject matter but they also start those first few records are like a campfire and they just built it up nice and big so those first few records come out and they're just banging and it's like wow Rip Roar and it's awesome.
01:16:31
Speaker
And then the third record, The Color of Spring, is, came out in 86, actually, in the year I was born. And it is like that sweet spot of the fire where it's like all the logs are hot and caught, but some of them are just more like hot coals and there's still fire. You're warm, but it's not like too hot.
01:16:50
Speaker
You can sit kind of close. And it's like some more avant-garde elements, a little more soft and experimental, but still powerful lyrics and incredible melodies.
01:17:02
Speaker
And then the rest of the, i think there was... there's only spirit of eden after that is there one more can't remember there might be two records but it might just be one record after that that is incredibly drawn out and then the final thing they ever did before mark collis died was as he did a solo record that is like the most spaced out and literally like it's like super long soft slow music and it's like the end of the campfire where it's just like some smoldering embers. It's so quiet and soft and beautiful.
01:17:36
Speaker
So their whole trajectory is a really interesting. Just look at a band in music and they started off making pop hits in the early, late, you know, early, the beginning of the eighties being like, here's this fucking synthesizer. Like we're dancing and partying. And then and it's, and it slowly kind of burns out, not like in a bad negative connotation, but just like beautifully until where it's like the end of the night. And you're like, it's time for dead.
01:18:01
Speaker
you know, right. i love that. That's a great answer. yeah That might, that might be one of the best ones I've had yet. Oh, thank you. I love that. Thanks for asking me that question.
01:18:12
Speaker
You're so welcome. You're so welcome. I am going to with a song that is going to be very left field for me. um i don't expect any of our listeners to know it. You will know it. This is an honor, an ode to our dad.
01:18:26
Speaker
um Dad used to always make us like these mixtapes, right? And it would be a bunch of his favorite songs. And Even before that, a lot of our home videos, he would like dub music over and which like no one ever really did back then. VHS tapes. VHS, yeah. It wasn't like, there's no digitry at all. It was like, yeah.
01:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, so he would like, have we had all these home videos of just, you know, all of this music dubbed over and just, you know, kind of like personalized home music videos, if you will. um But a song that sticks out in my mind, and I want to say this this song in particular is probably one of the reasons why I love so much of the hookiness in pop music and the catchiness of pop music.
01:19:14
Speaker
It's the song Little Willie by Sweet. Little Willie Willie won't oh like go home. like yeah song I know what you're talking about.
01:19:27
Speaker
Yeah. And so like, you know, for those, and and I don't really listen to music pre like eighties. It's just for whatever reason, not typically what I gravitate to you or what I go to, but this is one of those rare songs. I think it was released in like 79 again by the band suite.
01:19:43
Speaker
And I'm sure, I'm sure that like most of my followers have no idea who I'm talking about, but this song is so fucking catchy. Yeah. And such a, like, it's like this, like, you know, 70s rock pop song, essentially.
01:19:59
Speaker
And this chorus is just like, that little Willie Willie won't. Isn't that chord change at the end? Go home, but you can't push. Willie won't, Willie won't go. Try telling everybody about whoa no like it's so good and so i'm i am fairly certain that that is one of those songs between that and like michael jackson and madonna like but that song in particular i'm i'm fairly certain is what instilled in my brain like my love of catchiness and catchy choruses and hooks and things like that because good melody yeah
01:20:34
Speaker
It really is. And I, and gets stuck in my head all the time. All the time. That's so funny. I thought about those, something that like those mixtapes dad would make. And I, that was, when I was thinking about it, what song to talk about that came up and of the tunes that came up for me, that was not one of them. That's so interesting that that's like, you have hooked into that one. and Yeah. oh Yeah. oh I was thinking of, ah um I like bread and butter.
01:21:00
Speaker
Oh yeah. Toast and jam. Oh my God. It was so sweet. Yes. They were like, not kid songs, but they were always like kid adjacent things. Right.
01:21:11
Speaker
simple you know, or like, you know, Queens bicycle. Right. Yeah. Right. Yes, exactly. Cause it's like literally about, right. I want to ride my bicycle. You know, I want to ride my bicycle. Yeah. Yeah. All the ringing.
01:21:23
Speaker
remember the ringing, all the bicycle ringing kind of scared me as a kid. All the bells ringing. Remember that? Well, I don't, I remember the bicycle ringing that didn't scare me, but I remember the motorcycle in the beginning of Michael Jackson's, the way it made me feel scared me.
01:21:37
Speaker
Yeah. so funny The things that scare us as children. We can all agree that Michael Jackson's eyes at the end of the thriller vier video is one of the scariest things on recorded ever in film. Right.
01:21:52
Speaker
Exactly. But oh my God. Yeah. I mean like all of those mixtapes that I mean like Jefferson Starship, right? Like um I also, also Wilson Phillips. Hold on was another one of those songs that, that was on those mixtapes and When I got a little older, i don't know.
01:22:10
Speaker
There was one that had smoking in the boys room, but you know, smoking in the boys room. don't know if I remember that one. It was another one that had like, schools out for summer.
01:22:23
Speaker
Okay. It was all that kind of school themed tunes. Sure. Smoking in the boys room was like, don't know if you want to be thinking about that. Right. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Jokes on him.
01:22:35
Speaker
Jokes on him. Well, Alex, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Homophonic. Yeah, absolutely. Please come back anytime. I'm so excited that you're here.
01:22:46
Speaker
um and until next time, everyone, peace out. Love you everybody. Be good to each other. Be good to each other. And I love you, Alex. I love you too.
01:22:57
Speaker
Be good to yourself.