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From the Roota to the Toota: The Journey to Seeing and Then Seeing Through with Dr. Angela Farr Schiller
130 Plays1 year ago
On this episode, Angela and Amber talk about dramaturgy as a way of inhabiting the world, the NPD as resource developer, and dramaturgical tools being infinite! We ask the question of the American Theatre: Why do we only want to survive? And how does Capitalism continue to impact our ability to create?
As we dive deeper we talk about intuition, trust and that the playwright really does know and have the tools already. We all have the tools! Angela encourages everyone to be their own kind of dramaturg, and think outside any box. Don’t worry about fitting in. Journey to seeing and then seeing through.
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Transcript
Introduction to Amber Bradshaw and Podcast Mission
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made. My name is Amber Bradshaw, and I am a new play dramaturg, arts administrator, and educator. On this podcast, I chat with theater makers about the art of new play dramaturgy. Our mission is to demystify the process of creation and collaboration, share tools to better the work, and record what we discover.
Sponsorship and Role at Working Title Playwrights
00:00:29
Speaker
This podcast is brought to you by Working Title Playwrights, a new play incubator and service organization based in Atlanta, Georgia, in which I serve as the Managing Artistic Director. For more about WTP, check out www.workingtitelplaywrights.com.
00:00:49
Speaker
new play dramaturgs to think outside of the box about the types of contributions that we can make to our regions, to our country, to the regional theater system, to our educational system, to the development of the pipeline. I think we have much to give in those areas. It's not just about placing a dramaturg with a work or a playwright. I mean, this podcast is a prime example
00:01:17
Speaker
of that kind of advocacy work that is done in a lot of different modalities and a lot of different mediums.
Introduction to Dr. Angela Farshiller and Achievements
00:01:25
Speaker
I'd like to start by introducing y'all to our guest today, Dr. Angela Farshiller. Angela is an Emmy Award winning director, a multi-award winning dramaturk, and the first black female associate professor of theater at the Boston Conservatory at the Berkeley School of Music.
00:01:41
Speaker
Formally serving as the Director of Arts Education at the four-time Southeast Emmy Award-winning Arts Bridge Foundation for the Cobb Energy Performing Arts Center in Atlanta, her leadership is featured in American Theatre Magazine. As a new works production and community engagement dramaturg, she has worked on numerous productions.
00:01:59
Speaker
Most recently, Angela served as the production dramaturg at Oregon Shakespeare Festival's West Coast premiere of Dominique Morisot's Confederates, directed by Nataki Garrett. Additionally, she works as a dramaturg in residence with working title playwrights. As a director, her production of Dreamgirls was nominated for six San Francisco Theater Bay Area Awards, including Outstanding Direction of a Musical and Outstanding Production of a Musical.
00:02:25
Speaker
and her production of In the Red and Brown Water won an Outstanding Director Award from the Kennedy Center College Theater Festival. Her televised production of the Georgia High School Musical Theater Awards won a Southeast Emmy Award. As a scholar, Angela has presented her research on the intersections of race and performance at various national and international conferences,
00:02:46
Speaker
including Performance Studies International, the American Study for Theater Research, Association of Theater and Higher Education, and the International Society for the Oral Literatures of Africa. Her most recent published book projects are the Methuen Drama Book of Transplays, nominated for a National Lambda Literary Award, and Troubling Traditions, Canonicity, Theater, and Performance in the U.S., with a forthcoming article featured in the international journal Modern Drama entitled, Touching Back While Black.
00:03:15
Speaker
self-defense, and the politics of black U.S. citizenship in Paul Green's in Abraham's bosom. Ultimately, her body of work is rooted in revealing the ways that performance can be utilized as a meaningful tool for critical thinking, social justice, and the development of empathy and compassion for the human experience.
00:03:34
Speaker
Angela, it's an honor to have you here today. So folks, Angela and I met in 2017, shortly after I started running Working Title Playwrights. I hired her to dramaturg one of the Ethel Wilson Labs for a brilliant playwright of ours at the time. It was the beginning of many labs for us, and I'm super excited to be having this conversation with one of my favorite humans and collaborators.
What is a Dramaturg?
00:04:00
Speaker
I'd like to start by doing some rapid fire definitions of a new play Dramaturk. I'm ready. All right. So I'll throw one out and then you throw one out. Okay. A midwife. An artist. A mind melder. A curious seeker. A curious listener. A visionary. An excavator. An ally. A courageous collaborator. An activist.
00:04:26
Speaker
a truth teller, a confidant, a cheerleader, an advocate, and a storyteller's best friend. I love it. Okay. All right. So tell me about the moment you said, I'm a new play dramaturg. I didn't think I've ever said that to myself. And I don't mean that in like a bad way. It's just that I think about dramaturgy in a very large kind of way.
00:04:52
Speaker
And I think about it on a spectrum, right? As my great aunt would say, from the rooter to the tutor, the experience of like a piece of drama coming to life, right? And so from the idea to working with the audience, right? Like at the end of the process,
00:05:08
Speaker
I think about dramaturgy as a way of inhabiting the world. I think about dramaturgy as a state of mind, right, a kind of curiosity to have about how the world works, what it means to be alive, what it means to be a human. And at the end of the day, I mean, that's the root of almost all storytelling, right, is really edging toward answering those questions.
00:05:30
Speaker
And so whether I'm doing that, you know, in the classroom as a professor, I'm doing that in my scholarship. I'm doing that as a dramaturg or director. I feel like I'm bringing that spirit to everything that I do. And maybe, you know, there are specific things that I'm going to do in the opening part of an idea, turning into a script, turning into, you know, so on and so forth.
Philosophy and Nature of Dramaturgy
00:05:54
Speaker
which is labeled new play dramaturgy. But I think that spirit for me is in everything that I do and in everything that I work on and am a part of. To me that that also speaks to the like
00:06:12
Speaker
myriad of tools that a new play dramaturg, you know, is bringing to any process. It's infinite, basically, is what you're saying, right? It's infinite, and it's fluid, and it's magical. And it's something that I think is often part of the intangible parts, right, of what it takes to make a work come to fruition. We were talking about earlier this idea that
00:06:41
Speaker
You know, for me, I really resist in my spirit, right, putting a finite definition on what a dramaturg is or what a new work dramaturg or production dramaturg. Like, I know what some of the responsibilities of that label entail, but I feel like there's something about
00:07:01
Speaker
our artistic contribution that needs to stay fluid, that needs to stay immediate and in the moment for what's coming forward and how do we move that forward, right? How do we take what's coming at us and kind of flip it into something more, into what it's supposed to be, right? And so part of that I can't make
00:07:23
Speaker
finite or I can't make concrete because I've never been in the room on that day with those artists. And I need to be open as a vessel to what is needed. So I really, you know, on one hand, I am very resistant to saying this is what this is.
00:07:41
Speaker
I'm more comfortable with talking about what some of the responsibilities might be or what some of the outcomes that we would like to see. But what exactly is hard to say, right? Which is why, as we talked about earlier, it's also something that is challenging to make it marketable in a capitalistic type of society that wants to have very concrete
00:08:07
Speaker
things that it buys, right? So and what we give is some is part concrete and parts water, right? So it's like both of those things at the same time. And you want it to be both of those things at the same time. It's not as concrete as like a lighting designer or a costume designer.
00:08:24
Speaker
Even though there is much magic to be made in those areas as well, there is a concreteness to what you imagine is going to happen in the life of a costume designer, right? In the life of how they're going to contribute to a work. I don't think that people have that same concreteness when it comes to dramaturgy. And I think because that concreteness is not there in the capitalistic market, then people often don't know how to value what we bring.
00:08:51
Speaker
So I'm not sure why we need it, but my question would be why do we only want to survive? Right. I mean this is about storytelling. This is about magic. This is about intuition This is about you know revealing parts of society that we haven't heard from before and so I think that there's always going to be that tension as long as we are in a theatrical field that is rooted in capitalism
00:09:20
Speaker
I mean, we're always because it's going to be in the way that we relate to time.
Challenges of Marketing Dramaturgy
00:09:24
Speaker
It's going to be about the way that we relate to space. It's going to be about the quality of the interactions. Right. And so to me, that's the challenge of our work, right, is helping people to understand what we bring and that it does have a capitalistic value to it because I do need to pay my mortgage. Right. And I want and I also know that
00:09:49
Speaker
pay in our field is also attached to respect, right? That's why dramaturgs often aren't even thought of to be inside of the room or unless somebody's like, oh, well, maybe we should have a dramaturg, right? It's not a always already line item, right? It's often something that's brought on, you know, as a form of luxury, like, oh, I think we can afford this now.
00:10:14
Speaker
instead of thinking about how intrinsic it is to the process. Well, this is the other thing, right? I mean, I'm working in academia. It's extremely rare that you even have classes in dramaturgy, in drama schools. Do you know what I mean? Or in, you know, a liberal arts education where dramaturgy is a perfect intersection between liberal arts education and an arts education, right?
00:10:40
Speaker
Not that they have to be separate, but really, dramaturgy is quite the space where they come together and overlap over and over and over again. And so I think if we don't have it in our educational spaces, right, so you rarely see it inside of colleges and universities, and it's even rarer inside of high schools, right? And oftentimes, high school is the place where people are like, I'm an actor, I'm a stage manager, and now I'm going to go to college and, you know, get more
00:11:06
Speaker
you know, learned about this particular field, it's very rare that I have students coming in who say, I want to be a dramaturg. Now they'll take the dramaturgy class and then we'll work on shows and then they're like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, right? Like, I just didn't know. And it's like, then the question is, why didn't you know, right? Why don't we know about this as a, as a vocation, as a field, as a, you know, way, as another kind of artistry? Because I also don't feel like dramaturgs are thought of as artists.
00:11:36
Speaker
Oftentimes, I think they're thought of as someone who's going to bring the historical context, someone who's going to do the research, someone who's going to talk with the audience, so on and so forth, which we do all of those things, right? And we are also artists, right? The selection process, right? The things that we bring forward in order to kind of titillate, right? The space and create that sense of safety, that sense of magic, that sense of
00:12:06
Speaker
being able to bring one's full self to the table, I think we just don't have a pipeline that really brings that profession to the forefront and really values it as another kind of artistry that's brought to the table. And so to me, I also think part of my work as a dramaturg is also an advocacy. What you're doing with this podcast
00:12:35
Speaker
really helping people to understand what we bring. So it doesn't even have to be, this is what we do in this very concrete way, but the value of what we bring. I think people don't even know what they're missing by not having a dramaturg in the room. As I said, it's often after the experience that people are like,
00:12:55
Speaker
I never had a dramaturg like that, or I never had a dramaturg who brought this or who brought that. It really expanded my experience in the rehearsal space, both for the playwright and the performers. And so I think that's part of our work as dramaturgs, is to also advocate for work as dramaturgs. So that kind of brings me to this idea of the new play dramaturg as a creative. Yes.
Collaboration with Playwrights
00:13:21
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about the way you look at that.
00:13:24
Speaker
Yeah, so I think first and foremost, it's thinking about myself as an artist, right? And as a, you know, creative collaborator with the playwright. The playwright has the vision, they have the story, and it's part of my work is to bring forth a space that opens up the doors that allows them to tell the story that only they can tell.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I think that it takes next, I mean, it's almost like improv, right? If we're thinking about it because it's in real time, what they need, where they're at, it's never the same playwright twice, right? Even if it is the same person, you know, different days, some days they're distraught, some days, you know. And so to me, I think about it in the same way that I would prepare to go on stage to do improv, right? That yes, and it's not really different for me, right? And that in itself is,
00:14:25
Speaker
the ultimate kind of artistry because I have to come with a very open vessel, right? It's not about what I want, it's not about my ego, it's not about what I think should happen, right? It's really what the playwright thinks should happen, right? And it's my job to play with them in a kind of way, and I don't mean in a malicious kind of way, I mean in a joyful kind of way, right? That brings forth
00:14:48
Speaker
the things inside of them that they don't feel like they're able to do yet, right? Whether that's getting them, working with them with exercises, whether that's, you know, kind of just having really like three hour conversations about, you know, a certain topic.
00:15:04
Speaker
whether that's bringing in some work that I have curated for them. And that is part of the artistry too, the curation of what I'm going to bring forward into the space for people to start connecting dots between what's on the written word and this piece of art that I brought in for them to kind of think about or a video or a piece of music or something like that. So to me, there's an immense amount of really on your feet in real time type of artistry that's happening inside of the space.
00:15:33
Speaker
Also, even before you get into the space, as we talked about, it's the setting up the space, right? Because a closed vessel doesn't have anything that comes out of it, right? And so my job is to create a space where everybody's vessel can be as open as possible, right, inside of that space so that the flow of what is supposed to happen in that collective coming together of artists can happen. And if people are afraid, if people are scared, if people are intimidated,
00:16:03
Speaker
I'm, we're not going to get our best work, right? And so part of my job is also setting up an environment, right? Where the artists feel like they can come with open hearts, open spirits, open minds and open vessels to let the spirit flow of the story that they only they can tell. And I really prize the fact that only that vessel can tell that story in that way. And so that's why for me, I also don't come in with like preconceived like,
00:16:33
Speaker
this is that tool for this and this is the tool for that. I have a lot of different tools and I might apply them or not depending on the feedback that I'm getting from my improv partner right inside of the space. So it's not like a
00:16:49
Speaker
a job where you can come and like, I'm prepared to do XYZ, which I am prepared to do XYZ, and ABC, and DEF, and maybe ADZ, right? We just don't know what's going to be necessary. So I think, you know, that's another thing in thinking about the dramaturg as an artist is thinking about how do I get my physical, spiritual, emotional self
00:17:13
Speaker
into a space where my vessel is open, because if my vessel is not open and clear, right, then people can perceive that, you know, we're artists, we're intuitive, right, we feel each other. And so I have to think about, you know, before I come into that space, it's not just about setting up the space, it's also setting up myself to be able to come into that space
00:17:36
Speaker
without the ego of like, ah, I know how this structure can match up with this or this line. I don't know, right? I always am thinking, I'm turning it over, right? And I'm also thinking about the fact that the playwright knows, even if they don't know that they know, I know that they know, right? And it's part of my job is to like seek that intuition that's inside of the artist and give them that space to like,
00:18:05
Speaker
bring that thing forward that literally only them on this planet can bring forward.
00:18:14
Speaker
That so resonates in terms of like, if you are a dramaturg and this is the first time you're meeting with a playwright and you've got like five pages of notes in front of you and you're just writing a fire away. Please don't be that dramaturg, right? That is not what we want to be doing. It's not because those notes aren't useful. It's because we don't know where the playwright is and where the playwright is what matters. That's what matters. Absolutely. I mean, to me, that is the very first
00:18:44
Speaker
thing that I'm going to do when I start to work with a playwright, because to me, trust is the foundation of that relationship. When I say a best friend, trust is the foundation of that.
00:18:59
Speaker
And I also respect that as an artist, we're really vulnerable about bringing, you know, there's a reason why these stories haven't been told, right? Some of it is structural inequities, some of it is, you know, all of the isms out there, but also part of it is that it's vulnerable, right? To bring these stories forward and to think, do these stories have value, right? And so to me, the first place that I'm gonna like interact with the playwright is really understanding
00:19:29
Speaker
where they're at with the work. What is this work according to them? What's their vision for it? If they have a vision for it, it might just be like, I have an idea, but I don't quite have a vision yet. But really, what are your roadblocks? What are the stumbling places? Where are the fear points? That's really what I want to listen for and understand, because that's going to be the first place that I'm going to work on.
00:19:53
Speaker
I'm going to work on supplying confidence and support into those areas to help them get from point A to point B. And then once those things are really looked at, activated, and put in the places where they can be productive, then we can get to the script.
00:20:13
Speaker
But I feel like if a playwright is coming or an artist is coming with a lot of walls up because of fear or I'm not sure, because the thing is a lot of times a playwright only comes to a dramaturge when they're like, I've done everything I can do and I don't really know how to penetrate this wall any further. So they're already having a point of insecurity where they feel like their skills alone cannot get them to where they want to go. So I'm really sensitive and aware of that.
00:20:42
Speaker
And I want to hold all of those insecurities and I want to address them. And then we can move forward in whatever way their instinct is telling us that we should move forward. Because I feel like if those insecurities are there, they're about closing vessels, not opening vessels. Right. And I imagine the
00:21:04
Speaker
uber-analytical, potentially theoretical dramaturg, thinking about this from a perspective of, well, this critical feedback is what I need to bring to this meeting, right? Instead of, no, what you need to bring to this meeting is yourself as a human being, right? And who you are really authentically because you're going to be responding as that person to this play, right? To this play in this moment, yes.
00:21:31
Speaker
And so that first meeting really needs to be about getting to know one another as human beings, not just as artists, right? Because you're bringing all of yourself to this process and the playwright needs to know you the way that you know them, right? So I love asking the playwright questions because I find that especially that first meeting, like I don't really think I should be talking that much, right? And should really be more like,
00:21:58
Speaker
No, you tell me what's going on. You tell me what you need. And then I have the tools I need to support you. Yeah, in a certain kind of way, there is an aspect of new play dramaturgy that is like a therapist. I'm not gonna go to a therapist and right off the bat, they're telling me what I need.
00:22:19
Speaker
So it's like I really need to like Listen, right? Like that really is like my first place to go with with the work because I know I don't know That's that's what I do know is that I don't know right and I do know that the playwright knows, right? Hmm. Yeah, it just kind of clicked for me that That the the first component
00:22:44
Speaker
of new play dramaturgy is the human component, right? And then after that is when we start talking about feedback of any kind. That space in between, right? And I think that's something that people often don't realize is skipped in many cases. I would agree. I would agree. And you know why? Because for me, it's like,
00:23:13
Speaker
let's get down to business, right? Like speaking of capital, like let's get down to the script is the thing, right? And for me, the playwright is the thing. Yes. Right. Because we don't have the play. We don't have the story if the playwright is not able to really give and be present in their fullest way.
00:23:34
Speaker
Like I want the play that's the fullest expression of what that person has to say. Because one, because we do live in a capitalistic society, we may not get another chance to get this. And so to me, that only can happen when there is a true relationship there, when there is a true kind of like sense of trust with each other.
00:24:04
Speaker
And to me, that's going to be privileged throughout the entire process. Because if at any point that breaks down, the process is really hampered by that. If you have a playwright who doesn't trust their dramaturg, I really don't know where you go from there. So that trust to me is imperative. And it's imperative from the very beginning of the process.
00:24:32
Speaker
that bonding as two human beings, right? One in a support way, right? And one in a lead kind of way. Even though I will say sometimes when I start as a new play dramaturg in this kind of work, working with a playwright, I feel them wanting me to lead because they're at a place where I'm like, I don't know what else to do, you know? And it's like really this new framing of what this relationship, it's like, no, you're leading.
00:25:02
Speaker
even when you don't know that you're leading, right? It's like your instinct is taking us to where we're supposed to go. We don't need to know what step C is. If we're on B, let's be in B for as long as we need to, and then moving on to C, but we won't move on until the playwright's instinct leads us to that next step. But I think if we're going to reimagine
00:25:29
Speaker
what the future of theater is, I think we have to reimagine our relationship to capitalism. I think we have to reimagine our relationship to, and I don't just mean like the workers or the people inside of the institution, but I mean on a national scale to really rethink the relationship between art and capitalism.
00:25:52
Speaker
essentially. And we see these examples in Europe and other countries where the government does fully, I don't want to say fully, but does appreciate with their dollars the arts and really understands what a social contribution the arts are to us as human beings. Obviously, we know this to be true because during the lockdown, the US lockdown phase of COVID,
00:26:17
Speaker
That's all we were doing is going to books and going to YouTube, going to Netflix, going to music, going to, I mean, that's so much of what sustained us, our sanity during that time. But I think as a country, we don't value the arts in that way in a consistent way. And so we make the arts scrap it out with other artists to make art. And that really is not the recipe to me, right, for how
00:26:47
Speaker
Great art is born, right? It's like a baby. I can't be like, hey baby, you've got to come out now. You know what I mean? It's like the baby comes from the baby comes, right? I mean, of course, there's C-section, there's sometimes, you know, there's other things the baby's telling us that we need to have different ways of imagining how this baby comes to life. That said, I think as long as we're tied in that relationship to capitalism, it's always gonna be a fight for value.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, because I see too with funders and donors, you know, as Working Title grows, it's having to figure out how to tell our story in a way that makes sense to them, which has been wild for me because they don't understand process, right?
00:27:34
Speaker
having to explain the value of process and the value of what we're doing as a service organization. It can be mind-numbing for me at times, right? And so I have to remind myself that
00:27:51
Speaker
that these funders are interested in hearing this narrative that I have. It's just newer to them. Right.
Working Title Playwrights' Community Focus
00:28:00
Speaker
And so that's the way I'm approaching it, you know, and looking at other organizations that are similar, like Minneapolis Playwrights Center.
00:28:07
Speaker
you know, new dramatists and stuff like that and kind of seeing what they're doing as well. But I think part of it for me is like really not wanting to compromise the fact that we're not producers and not ever wanting to change that because I just really see so much freedom in not being a producer and not being a part of that. Because as soon as we start producing, people are going to decide, oh, well, you're not producing my play. You're just producing this person's play. And then it becomes this game of who is being
00:28:36
Speaker
selected for things which really we don't look at selection we look at recipients right because for us.
00:28:43
Speaker
every single person who is a recipient of our program should be paying it forward in the community, right? That the people that are sitting in that room with them have been hired by us, but they are future collaborators. They are fellow artists. And these are the people that make your work better and make you better, you know? And so it doesn't make any sense not to take full advantage of that as an artist, you know? And so I- It's a rare space.
00:29:12
Speaker
Right. And I see too that the the way that producers are approaching doing the work is through a product based model. Right. They have a lot of them and
00:29:25
Speaker
And, you know, not necessarily throwing shade because this is what people had to do when the recession hit in 2007. They had to survive. Right. Absolutely. And survival is something that artists in this country have and will always understand. It is a part of our foundation and.
00:29:44
Speaker
I think producers need to do what I'm encouraging myself to do, which is to tell the story in a different way and teach funders how to fund us. Instead of a season full of work that you can't afford, let's do less. Let's do more community engagement. Let's do less product.
00:30:06
Speaker
driven programming, right? And what does that mean for what theater looks like if we entirely change the idea that, well, we're going to, we need to add a bar and sell alcohol and create more income, income, income. But the truth is we are not for profit. We are nonprofit organizations that are running like for profit businesses.
00:30:31
Speaker
That's why I'm saying it's a relationship to capitalism. We're just slowly leaning more and more toward that kind of way. And it's because of things like scarcity. And so that's why to me, it's not like one organization, one theater. It's a federal conversation that really needs to be had about
00:30:54
Speaker
our social relationship to the arts, right? And really valuing that this, in the same way that we invest in biomedical, in the same way that we invest in all of these other ways that are helping us to understand what it means to be alive, right? I don't see why the arts wouldn't be valued in the same way because it gives us another kind of insight
00:31:19
Speaker
into that question about what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be here in this moment? What did it mean to be there in 1952? What, you know, all of these different kinds of things that, you know, we can hear the same story in a news report, we can hear the same story in a historical biography, but it is another experience
00:31:40
Speaker
to to sit in a room with other people right that we may or may not know that may have voted all kinds of different ways from us right and we are having this journey together right i mean there is nothing more sacred in our culture than that sitting around the fire right the lights the gas light right all of that kind of stuff and hearing a story about humanity
00:32:04
Speaker
They're like, that doesn't get replaced because if it did, it would have already been replaced, right? But it doesn't. It's thousands and thousands and thousands of years old. I just think that the challenge for us is that we've intertwined that contribution with capitalism,
Artistic Process vs. Capitalist Demands
00:32:20
Speaker
right? And the artistic process needs the time that it needs, right? It's like dramaturgy, right? In the way that it's hard to say this is an exact science, it's not an exact science.
00:32:33
Speaker
Right. And so and how it comes out of different people takes all kinds of different, you know, roads and journeys and adventures. And so to me, until that changes on a large scale federal level, we're always going to be trying to navigate from the margins about how to make art on on the artist's time, not on the dollar's time. Yeah.
00:33:01
Speaker
And I think that's also part of our work as a new play dramaturg is like putting our arms out to, you know, the walls on the left, the walls on the right and saying, no, they need this time.
00:33:11
Speaker
And we need to protect that time. And it's rare and it's valuable. And that's where these full expressions of the human experience come from, is people having that time to think, to sleep, to dream, to have sex, to meet people, to break up, to do all kinds of life experiences that inform, that need to happen in order for that particular story to be told. I can't imagine what Hamilton would look like if it had six months.
00:33:36
Speaker
It would be a totally different disaster problem. I have faith in those artists. I truly do. But they needed seven years. And seven years of a lot of people going, huh? I don't know. I don't know. Can that really? Right? And it's like, yes, it can. And I think part of what a dramaturg also brings is advocating for that time and space for artists to be able to make the work that only they can make.
00:34:05
Speaker
Yeah. When I started with Working Title as the Managing Artistic Director in 2016, you know, the organization had been around about 10 years already.
00:34:15
Speaker
And I just put dramaturgs everywhere. I mean, it's just like, you know, we had dramaturgs in our workshop program, but in the other programs, we really didn't. And so I just started using the word everywhere. And I think it's funny because at the time, I don't think I realized how controversial that was that I was doing that. And people would later be like, oh, well, you've got all these dramaturgs and da, da, da. And I'd be like,
00:34:41
Speaker
oh well yeah you know and for me it was really more about awareness than bringing awareness to who the dramaturg is and
00:34:52
Speaker
So in our table series, everything we do is very process focused. So for me, the person leading the room is both a dramaturg and a director. So we literally call them a dramaturg director. And I don't like to just call them a director because they're not. That's right. Right. And so it's so funny because
00:35:14
Speaker
As I sort of develop more of this you know sort of what we're working with a working title in terms of a style of new play dramaturgy I learned that there is so much specificity to it.
00:35:29
Speaker
And I love the idea of improv because it's like dramaturgical improv. Absolutely. It really is because there's no lack of specificity in it, but you're not coming in knowing what is about to occur, right? And I think that can be
00:35:49
Speaker
For a dramaturg who's used to research and production and literary management, that could be very shocking. Absolutely. And unsettling. Absolutely. Right. And so there is a certain grounding in self that I think
00:36:10
Speaker
new play dramaturgs would really behoove themselves to have, right? Yes, absolutely. Because if you're coming at something nervous, anxious, stressed out, the playwright's going to feel exactly the same way. It's just going to just all just spill out into the other person, right? Yes. There's too many impacts.
00:36:35
Speaker
Right? Yes, absolutely. And so to me, that's also part of the practice of being a new plane dramaturg, right? It's like, what is that practice for myself that grounds me to be able to go into the space that grounds me to allow my ego to like go to the side because this does not serve me in that space, right? And to really come as a whole person.
00:37:00
Speaker
ready to receive the yes and, right? As you call it, you know, dramaturgical improv. Yeah. And I've had people say like, well, how do you deal with a conflict? Let's say you're on a team. And one good example was, there's a talkback scheduled with the audience, but the playwright is supposed to be there, right? And so if you're the dramaturg on the team, and
00:37:23
Speaker
you are there to support the playwright and you're like oh this could be a really bad idea right then to have the playwright in front of this audience let's say we're pretty far into the process here right and this could be a really problematic situation for an audience to give feedback to a playwright at this point.
00:37:43
Speaker
And you have to talk to the team about this. And this is part of your job as a new play dramaturg, right? Absolutely. Some people might think, oh, that would make me uncomfortable. I don't know how I would handle that. And I'm like, well, get comfortable with handling conflict because it's part of doing this work. Yes. So I guess hearing you say that, it also makes me, you know, I feel like I'm talking in a very kind of philosophical way, right, about dramaturgy.
00:38:13
Speaker
And at the same time, there are some very hard and fast skill sets that you need to be able to do this work.
Concrete Skills in Dramaturgy
00:38:20
Speaker
And I think one of those things is being able to face the truth.
00:38:25
Speaker
right? That sometimes the direction that we're going is going to create more harm, right, than help, right? Or how can we rebalance a space that's going to be more helpful than harmful, right? For the play writer for the team, which is a real concrete kind of skill set, right? And the same that it's a similar kind of skill set than when you hold top backs after shows, right? And and so and how do you like read a room
00:38:52
Speaker
how do you bring a room forward in a way that is healthy, right? And also a way that's accountable and also a way that has joy inside of it, you know, like all of those kinds of things with people that
00:39:04
Speaker
You don't know what kind of day they have. You don't know how the energy they're bringing into the room, right? Which is another part of that improv, right? Because you're really riding the wave of the energy inside of that space as the dramaturg. And it could turn, right? That wave really could turn left or right at any time. And so I do think that so much of this work
00:39:29
Speaker
And especially because people are not getting the like educational support right inside of their, you know, getting their theater degrees. It's often a profession that people come to by accident or like, Oh, I've been doing that work or Oh, I really liked that, you know, and how do I, you know, which is probably why the intensive right has come to fruition because the universe has not created the support that's been needed.
00:39:55
Speaker
And so I think that I don't want to talk about new play dramaturgy only in its like philosophical way. I also want, you know, people to know that there are hard and fast skill sets, right? Which means not everybody is a dramaturgist.
00:40:11
Speaker
Right. Not everybody is a lighting designer. Not everybody is a director, right? Not everybody is a new playing dramaturg, right? Because it does take a very unique skill set, right? To be able to work in that kind of way, right? And to protect and to nurture and to advocate and to like push and to, you know, when to step back. Like it's very, it's a very, very intuitive
00:40:39
Speaker
type of artistry to me. I completely agree with that. And I feel like we've already talked about a lot of this sort of toolbox items that we like to use. But do you have any toolbox items you want to mention that you might not have mentioned yet? And I want to talk about your
00:41:02
Speaker
Well, I think one of one of the toolbox things that I do and I kind of talked about this is really this kind of series of questions that allow a playwright even before we meet to have some moments of self reflection with themselves and their work. That I think is like a go to tool for me. It doesn't matter who the playwright is.
00:41:25
Speaker
whether they're super experienced or this is their very first kind of shot at doing a play kind of thing, that tool I find to be extremely valuable, right? Because I think before the playwright and I come together, it's important that the playwright and the playwright come together, right? And really have a sense of where they are in this moment with their work.
00:41:48
Speaker
I love that. So just for clarity's sake, you like to send out. So before you meet with the playwright, you send out an email to them that has a series of questions for them to consider before you meet with them. Yes, they don't have to answer all of these questions. It's just something for them to consider. And it's it's really important for me for them to have that time.
00:42:10
Speaker
And for them to, and for me to have that before I read the play for the first time, because I feel like reading the play for the first time, I only get one, one, one time to be able to do that, to be able to have that freshness, that authentic freshness, because everything after that is a compilation, right? Of conversations, of reading it, of, oh, I had this thought when I read page 12 and this line.
00:42:33
Speaker
So I only get one opportunity to read the play fresh. And that is a skill, that is something that the dramaturg is bringing. So I like hold that to the side and then I hear back from them, right? Things, what do you want them to be thinking about as I navigate through your work? And so I will wait to get that back from them, right? And then I will read the work, right? And so for me, that is both a tool for the playwright and for me to get into this work because
00:43:03
Speaker
Once I get into it, then, you know, there's no first time again, right? I see that that is such a fantastic strategy. So you're so because what I see you doing is is almost prepping yourself for the playwright expectations the first time you read the play.
00:43:21
Speaker
Yes, right. That's what you're saying is that you're you've asked so that you don't even have to get to the part where you don't know what the questions are. You already know. That's a very short conversation you've had by email. Yeah, that's right. And the other thing is so like, I'll read it with with them in mind. So I'm kind of taking them with me into the work. And then when I give the first feedback, the first feedback
00:43:47
Speaker
are the questions, right? So the questions that they might be having, the roadblocks. So those are the first things that I'm going to look at, right? And I'm going to give feedback to so that they can get the anxiety out. Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, they answered and addressed and then they're asking questions and stuff like that. And then the last thing that I will do when I give feedback is here are some things to think about, right? These are the things that they didn't ask about. They don't feel, you know what I mean? Any kind of way about, they're just things that,
00:44:16
Speaker
hit me in a certain kind of way, right? And so that's the other thing about the gift of the first time reader, right? Is that I'm just letting you know, this is how it bounced off my life experiences. And here are some things to think about or consider, you know, I'm a big believer and take what you like and leave the rest, right? And so, but that will come at the very, very end.
00:44:37
Speaker
But the first thing that i'm going to do is address every single question that they have, right? Because i'm like let's get that i'm like a warrior in there just You know slicing and trying to to really address the things that The fear is circling around because I don't feel like we can get to the other parts if we don't address the things that we're scared of Or that the playwright right has fear around or concern or things like that. So I use those questions
00:45:07
Speaker
one for them to have their self-reflection, for me to really understand where they're at, for them to understand where they're at as well. And then I take that into reading of the work, and then I use that as the blueprint for how I'm going to start getting feedback to them.
00:45:25
Speaker
I love that. I love hearing that too because I do it differently. I have started making myself write written notes because I didn't used to. I used to like having virtual meetings and recording them and then the playwright can keep that. But a lot of playwrights want written notes. So I have in my effort to be adaptable, I'm like, okay, well, let me put these written notes together.
00:45:49
Speaker
I remember you saying something like written notes take forever and I was like that's why hers are so good because she takes forever to put them together and and that is the truth like when I really spend time on them and I go back and I really think about how each note is going to be taken in yeah that's part of what takes a look because no like the things that I want to get feedback on they're very clear to me
00:46:14
Speaker
right when I'm reading it. But I have to think about the reception of it, which is, I will say, for me, part of the improv of these first kind of initial meetings is when I actually meet with them. So then, and so I like to give them
00:46:28
Speaker
the notes in advance, if I'm able to finish them in advance, right, so that they can take time to like, take them in and ask questions or I'm not clear about this or Oh, yeah, that's what I was thinking, right. And then I meet with them. And when I meet with them, then I'm like coming as those just open vessel like
00:46:45
Speaker
here is this, let's talk. Like what do you think? How are you feeling? Let's hear about your, you know, all of these kinds of things. So I think maybe we just start putting them in all the different parts of the journey, but that definitely is really important. I will also say, you know, for new play dramaturgy, there's a lot of different variables as far as how much time you get a chance to have with a playwright. So it might be like five hours,
00:47:13
Speaker
That might be like the package that they are having or purchasing or whatever. It might be like, oh, this is a whole entire lab where you have six weeks, which is a whole different type of approach because of the time that we're going to have. So if I feel like I'm only going to get five hours, I want to make sure that I'm addressing their concerns. I want to make sure that when they walk away, now maybe they never read the notes again, maybe they do come back to them.
00:47:40
Speaker
And which is why every, I don't know, this is just me, every note, I'm really thinking about putting it in a way that feels open and still gives the note, right? That's not telling like prescriptive, you know what I mean? But it's, and so it takes time for me to really word things in a way where even if the playwright comes back to it in six months,
00:48:08
Speaker
right, it still feels open, it still feels relevant. And that for me is, that's part of the craft. That's also part of the artistry. Those notes that could take hours for me to write that will stand for months or years or who knows the next time I'll see that playwright again. I mean, I've had playwrights come back and say, I have rendered notes a million times, right? I've had other dramaturgs, I've had this, but it's really nice to be able, because they're like, a lot of times when a playwright
00:48:37
Speaker
when I meet with them in person, they're like taking some kind of notes or they're like, oh, yeah, this little thing over here. And allowing them to have it like in a finite space that's digital, that's this is what this is. Do you know what I mean? Where the notes are in full and not just a little scribble over here or scribble over there allows them to be able to come back. And also, you know, as an educator,
00:49:00
Speaker
I know that different brains work differently. And so I'm really also trying to work for a lot of different brains and learning styles. And not that I'm teaching them something, because I'm definitely not doing that. But I also understand that resection happens in a lot of different ways. And some people need that in their hand. They need something to read. And some people don't need that.
00:49:27
Speaker
So I'm trying to like give, especially because it's at the beginning where I'm still getting to know them and like how they take in and hold feedback. Some people can hold very direct feedback and some people cannot.
00:49:45
Speaker
And that's okay, because both people should be telling their stories, right? And so it's for me, which is another part of the artistry, is really understanding which playwright is which, right? And being able to like, in a kind of way, shape shift to meet them wherever they're at.
00:50:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's so true. I mean, that's why I have pushed myself to work on the written notes is because so many of the playwrights really prefer it. And I've what I've often done is because I am so much more verbal, I will give the notes first and then I will send them the written because I actually end up redoing it after talking to them.
00:50:30
Speaker
Like sometimes I'll be like, no, we don't need that anymore. I'll cut that and then I'll cut that and then I'll send it to them. So it's like really interesting, you know, and I didn't used to do the written notes as much. So now it's like, it's a whole different process, which I'm really enjoying. But that really just started because I am now training people to do it. Right. And so I think your written notes are one of the examples that I use. Right.
00:50:56
Speaker
Your written notes, Rebecca Sewell has written notes and Hank Kimmel's written notes. Very different, right? All fabulous, yes. Exactly. And all of you do a lot of services with us and work with us in different ways. And I do love all of the different formats and styles and vibes of the different written notes. Yeah, yeah. It's one of my favorite things. And I feel like mine are
00:51:25
Speaker
I mean you can kind of see like they're a little all over like they're kind of scattered. They make me feel very safe.
00:51:39
Speaker
Good. Yeah, because I felt like I know we could go anywhere, but I also know we could go here. Do you know what I mean? And so they just, and yeah, they just made me feel really safe and I really appreciated them. And they felt like you. I mean, I guess that's the thing is that we write as we are. Yes, right? Like I know when I'm reading my students' papers, I can hear them, which is also why I always know when it's plagiarized because I'm like,
00:52:07
Speaker
Sound like you This is somebody this is not you know, right so I because we write as we are right and so yeah Yeah, I love that. I love that So I would love to talk about Obviously you have a lot of projects going on, but I would love to talk about the Methuen book of Trans Place. Yeah
00:52:32
Speaker
Please, tell us about this incredible anthology. Yeah, so I will say this to me is also another form of new play dramaturgy to me, right? So I think that there's a way that when people do know what the dramaturg brings, there is a very kind of traditional pairing of like
00:52:54
Speaker
We have a project and we have a new play dramaturg and they go together, right? And I think that there are lots of different ways that a new play dramaturg can contribute to the play, contribute to the world and the field of new play dramaturg, your new plays being birthed into the world.
00:53:11
Speaker
And so one of the ways, so I'm also trained as a scholar and I teach. And so one of the things that I was coming up against inside of the classroom is one, I just wanted to make my syllabi as diverse as possible. I mean, I feel like we have 16 weeks, which means we're already extremely limited on the voices that we will hear. And so I just wanted them to be, I wanted my students to hear from lots of different people, lots of different points in the world.
Diversifying Dramatic Syllabi
00:53:38
Speaker
And I wasn't seeing a book that I could go to in an easy, mainstream kind of way, that was a book that really was by trans playwrights, that was about trans characters or feature trans characters that didn't focus on surgeries or balls or these kinds of things, but really talked about, I mean, life, right? Like we are full people. We have all kinds of life experiences.
00:54:07
Speaker
But I think a lot of like cis-centered work that has to do with trans lives, trans experiences are often really fetishized on this experience of transition. And so I worked with a beautiful, glorious team of co-editors. I wanted to say Leanna Keys and also Lindsay Mantone.
00:54:30
Speaker
We work together and we also were like, we don't see this book, right? And so we just decided, and I have to say, I have to give a little bit of credit to fabulous lighting designer and scholar, Kathy Perkins, right? Who says like, it's the things that we see that aren't there, that's our vision, right? That's the gift of our vision of the thing that we need to create.
00:54:54
Speaker
or else everybody would see that it's not, but we see that that thing's not there. So it's like, oh, that's our job. So we just decided that we're gonna create this anthology, right? And that it's gonna serve as a kind of platform for artistic directors who say, I don't know where these plays are, right? For syllabi inside of universities, right? And the great thing about the book is that it's lots of new playwrights, right? So I just wanna name some of these new playwrights.
00:55:24
Speaker
So, Sharifa Yasmin, M.J. Kaufman, Jay Chavez, Ty Defoe, Azure D. Osborne Lee, Leona Keys, Raphael Corey, and many more, right? And so, we set out a submission, right, for new plays and new playwrights. And so, we read hundreds of
00:55:41
Speaker
place. And then we kind of whittled it down to eight. And then we also asked for trans and non-binary scholars to do scholarship work on those plays, because we also don't have a lot of scholarship on this body of work. And so to me, I feel like
00:55:57
Speaker
this work is new play dramaturgy, right? Because I feel like these are new plays that need to be out into the world. I feel like it's also a platform for trans performers, for trans directors, right? And one of the dramaturgical things that we did is that we asked all of the playwrights that in the casting breakdown, that they are very specific.
00:56:19
Speaker
about the people and the lip experiences that they want infused into the casting of this work. So that we know that when these plays get done,
00:56:29
Speaker
it has been asked for, right? It's not like, well, maybe we, you know, it's like, no, this is who this place asking for, right? And so we wanted the book to be a kind of platform, right, to be able to travel in a lot of different circles, right? And so in the pipeline and beyond, because a lot of times artistic directors are like, they're doing the plays that they learned in college.
00:56:52
Speaker
right? That's where they're pulling from a lot of the times, and sometimes it's a long path, right? And so we just, we hope that this will be fruitful seed, right? For more stories to be told, and another kind of pathway, because I also think for dramaturges, oftentimes we're often forgotten, right, when it comes to the creation of plays,
00:57:15
Speaker
And it's often like we are attached to someone else's project, which I think, of course, that is part of the spirit of the work that we do. But I also think dramaturgs can have their own projects, right? And I think it's important for us to have our own projects, right? And so I just want to encourage new play dramaturgs to think outside of the box about the types of contributions that we can make to our
00:57:42
Speaker
our regions, to our country, to the regional theater system, to our educational system, to the development of the pipeline. I think we have much to give in those areas. It's not just about placing a dramaturg with a work or a playwright. This podcast is a prime example
00:58:02
Speaker
of that kind of advocacy work that is done in a lot of different modalities and a lot of different mediums. And so I think if I were to like weave this podcast, right, or any kind of, I don't know, advice, I don't like giving advice. I don't know what people should be doing. I barely know what I should be doing. But I will say,
00:58:21
Speaker
that don't be afraid to create your own projects. Don't be afraid to create your own lanes of new play dramaturgy. Don't be afraid to re- I don't even want to say reimagine. Imagine anew, right? You know, different ways to widen this field. One of those ways is working with artists and playwrights
00:58:43
Speaker
the others could be a million different things, right? And so this is one way that I'm doing that, you know, I mean, another thing, I think we need more dramaturts to write criticism, right? And I mean, a diverse group of dramaturts to be able to do this, right? We normally have had cis white men who have been like the arbiters of criticism and critique, but I think, you know, they don't understand every life experience. And so we need lots of different
00:59:08
Speaker
dramaturgs out there because a lot of times the plays that are chosen to be read inside of classrooms are often plays that have commentary or critique that can go with them in a lesson plan,
Exploring Non-traditional Roles for Dramaturgs
00:59:20
Speaker
right? Or think about, you know, giving talks, right, at colleges or at, you know, in different kinds of spaces. So I just think that there's a lot of different ways that a new play dramaturg can work.
00:59:32
Speaker
And I think that it's time that we discover the outer bounds of what that could be.
00:59:39
Speaker
I love that so much because you're also talking about NPDs creating resources for the field, right? Yes, absolutely. Of which there are not a lot, you know? That's right. I've been teaching this new play Dramaturgy Intensive for two years now and I will say that
01:00:04
Speaker
I love the resources that I have pulled together, but I have been shocked by the limited amount of really good resources that are thinking about the work in a dramaturgical way.
01:00:22
Speaker
So often I listen to podcasts in the hopes that I'm going to hear about the process of creation. And usually we end up talking about career path and maybe the actors and the piece. We're not really talking about how the piece was made. We're talking about the product itself and we're observing something about that. But we're mentioning that it was developed in this space, right? So I have just found so often that
01:00:50
Speaker
the material is very limited. And so in being a part of this Methuen book and the other book that you were a part of about canonicity that I absolutely love and hope that people will review as well, you're contributing to the field in ways that we have not seen before.
01:01:10
Speaker
You know, so thank you for being a part of this. I'm not an originator of this. I just feel like the beauty of being a dramaturge is that you one gets an opportunity to work and contribute to the field in a lot of different ways. Right. That I don't feel like is always afforded to maybe someone who, you know, has a more finite field, like, I don't know, a more finite field that people are like, I know what that is. Right. So I feel like
01:01:38
Speaker
It is the dramaturges that really are that kind of fluid in between the bricks in between. Do you know what I mean? That have that opportunity to cast a really wide net, right? About understanding the context, right? Understanding the work and the world and bringing those two things together. And I think it can be done in a million different ways, right? I'm seeing it
01:02:01
Speaker
here in Atlanta on the Beltline, right? When I see artistic work that's up and then I see, you know, commentary that's, you know, research that's done about it, that's really like, oh, I'm standing in this real space. I'm looking around and taking this in. And then I'm putting this in juxtaposition with this piece of art that I'm seeing. And then somebody has written this beautiful commentary that like weaves together this world that I'm standing in and the work that I'm looking at. And I'm having this really beautiful experience
01:02:28
Speaker
on my walk, on the bell line, you know what I mean? And so I just think there's so many, I mean, I was just asked to work on a project that involves a collection of fashion, right? And to do some writing, some kind of dramaturgical writing around the material art, right? That is the fashion and the historical moment in which people were using that fashion as a way to armor up or to say, fuck you, or to, you know, all of these kinds of things. And so I think that
01:02:58
Speaker
I want to say we shouldn't limit ourselves and what our contributions can be as a dramaturg because, you know, as William Shakespeare says, all the world's a stage, right? And there are just so many ways of weaving the work and the world together in really unexpected ways that I think really contribute to our experiences of being alive.
01:03:21
Speaker
That just made me think of them. I feel like one of the first times I really felt excited about that kind of exploration is I took a costume design class in college and we used the Kentucky Cycle, which is just such a phenomenal piece of work.
01:03:42
Speaker
I was just so fascinated by like, I think I had used a pattern that was not old enough for the period that I was in. And I remember my teacher mentioning that, oh, well, that plaid wasn't available until this year. And I just like, I just geeked out. I just was obsessed.
01:04:03
Speaker
Just obsessed with the fabric wasn't created yet. She brought out she had like an incredible quilt collection. And she showed us the quilts and what they meant. And I was like, I had no idea quilts were like literally living history because they're holding the fabric of that time period. Yes. Wow. And I just was I just was blown away as like a 20 year old. I could not believe it.
01:04:31
Speaker
And that, to me, that is dramaturgy. That is the beauty of this work. That's right. I mean, I think so much of our work, James Snead, who's a film scholar, talks about this idea that we learn to see and to see through. And I think the dramaturg is part of our work.
01:04:50
Speaker
is the journeying to seeing and then seeing through, right? And we're holding hands and we're like, you know, I feel like it's like a room that's all dark and we're feeling around and nobody knows exactly what the rooms looks like, but we're like all discovering together intellectually, sensually, like all of these kinds of ways.
01:05:08
Speaker
And yeah, so to me that is a foundation, right? Of what we do and what we weave together as dramaturgs, right? That ability to see the familiar anew, right? And there's storytelling in everything, right? In literally like the world works on storytelling, right? People get elected into office on mythos and storytelling, right? It's like, what kind of thing? And so to me, I think, you know,
01:05:38
Speaker
It's our it's an honor To be a part of a craft that is about the birthing story right because that is really intrinsic to our humanity And every relationship that we have in this world Or don't have right in this world. Um, and so to me it's a it's a sacred craft
01:06:02
Speaker
It truly truly is or it truly can be I'll say that But but I truly think that it is and that's why I say that when I'm coming into a space Especially with new play development. I have to like turn it over right when I say turn over I mean to the universe to be like I do not know I don't know like I really don't know right, but I want to be ready Right. So yeah
01:06:31
Speaker
I also hear you saying like living in that present moment is so key. Yes. Right. Yeah. Because if not, then I'm prescribing, right? I'm dictating what is going to happen and for me it's about, well, it's, it is like that improv, right? Like I, I get ready and then I show up, right? And getting ready doesn't mean that I don't do research or I'm not doing, you know, all of these other kinds of things. Um,
01:07:00
Speaker
But at the end of the day, I have to show up open. I have to show up with a big heart. I have to show up with an open mind. I have to show up with an open spirit because if not, it's all red. Everyone knows it. Do you know what I mean? When we're not coming in with that kind of space.
01:07:16
Speaker
I think that's why we have to have the dramaturg and why it can't be the producer or the director or the stage manager, right? It's because we can't have any of those concerns, right? Yeah, our priorities are different. Exactly. And sometimes they're competing, right? Yes. And that's okay, right? I'm okay to have those conversations, truly. That said, we have different jobs. We have different objectives, right?
01:07:42
Speaker
And I have to say, I do appreciate the producer. It's not like I'm like, you're my arch nemesis or something like that. I appreciate them. We do live in a capitalist society. We do need money to make this happen. I would love for my check not to bounce. We do need all of these people. And I think part of what
01:08:04
Speaker
In lieu of not having another system of funding, right, I think it's also something that brings a lot of dynamic energy into the space. And I think, you know, part of our mission is to protect the process. I want to get to these last final questions. Okay.
01:08:23
Speaker
Okay, so favorite new play references, favorite inspirations. Yes, okay, so I have a million, right? Of course. So I'm just gonna give, I have like one book that I think is a great one because it has so many different perspectives and voices inside of it. And then I just have a few quotes that are really, I don't know, they're kind of meaningful to me at this moment, right? So I would say I really would plug the Rutledge companion to dramaturgy.
01:08:52
Speaker
I think it's a really wonderful reference place to start. It's coming from a very global kind of perspective. There's like over 85 different dramaturgs who are contributing in all kinds of different ways and fashions and entry points into the work. And so I think it's a great, I don't know, for me, it's something that
01:09:10
Speaker
I've had it for a long time and I'll go back to it and think, oh, I'm working on this kind of project. Let me just see what somebody has to say about talk backs or about this or about developing and, you know, all of these different kinds of contexts. And so to me, I think it's a great kind of go to book.
01:09:25
Speaker
and anthology, hearing from lots of different dramaturgs from lots of different perspectives. I also really love, so Columbia University, at one point I was thinking about applying there, blah, blah, blah. But one of the things that really stuck with me was their definition of a dramaturg. And I just, I don't know, it just stuck with me. And so it reads that dramaturgs
01:09:51
Speaker
are people of ideas who function as fluid, creative, motivating liaisons among all of the components of a creative team. Wow. Yeah. I don't know. I really love that. Like it's like very open, but it's also concrete. I'm like, I think I know what that is, but it could be anything, right? In that kind of way. And it's exactly right.
01:10:13
Speaker
for me, like that's kind of been my experience that like person of ideas. And I would also say person of heart, right? And spirit as well. And then I also I mean, this is a very kind of like, simple, you know, thing, but it comes from Susan Lori Parks's essay on possession. And it just is like this, this, I put this on a lot of my syllabi, you know, this idea that theater is the place which best allows me to figure out how the world works.
01:10:40
Speaker
And that's what I'm contributing to, right? I'm no different than a scientist. I'm no different than a historian. I'm no different than a biologist, right? Who are really trying to understand how does the world work? How does this thing called life happen in the way that we're seeing it unfold before us? And so yeah, so that's those are just two quotes that I really I also think that a dramaturg is somebody who
01:11:10
Speaker
So much of our work is about the excavation of truth.
01:11:14
Speaker
Right. And so I love the quote by James Baldwin, right, who talks about, you know, it is our duty to face history with eyes open. Right. And so I just feel like that's part of my motivating. Like when I go into spaces, it's like that's part of my job is to excavate truth. Right. As I understand it or as we understand it or as this moment, right, understands it.
01:11:42
Speaker
I love that. I love that. That's beautiful. Okay, so favorite three playwrights. This is also a really hard one. I'm just gonna go in this moment. I'm really loving Dominique Morso.
01:12:00
Speaker
I'm really loving the work of Lynn Nottage and I'm really loving the work of Katori Hall. I'm so excited to go see Hotwanking. I just read this in my class and it's just, I don't know the work that they're excavating right now about the Black experience, about Black female liberation. It's just, it is really talking to me right now. And so right now I'm just kind of like in that world. So at this moment, but who knows next time.
01:12:29
Speaker
Did you hear the interview with Lynn Nottage on the subtext, the American Theater Podcast? Oh, yeah, he does. Brian does a wonderful interview with Lynn Nottage. Oh, it's so fantastic. And I don't know if you were watching it, but Pussy Valley is one of my favorite shows. Oh, yes. Oh, my God. Pussy Valley for the... What? So good. Yeah, and this is what I'm seeing, right? These are three artists who are really talking about
01:12:55
Speaker
really excavating what it means to be alive in lots of different points, right, in our world. And I am here for it. Yes, yes. Love those. Yay. And then three dramaturgs or new play artists that are favorites.
01:13:12
Speaker
So I'm going to say, and so one of them is not a new artist, but there's someone who is making new work that I really love and appreciate. So that goes to Shari Muraga, that I, you know, she's a long time artist, right? And I think that the work that she's still making, right, is like cutting edge and really helping us to see and see anew.
01:13:32
Speaker
I think Leona Keys, right, is also a really great, like, she wrote a play called Dr. Boynich, right, which is, and her children, which is kind of a kind of riff or conversation with Mother Courage, right? But thinking about, she wrote this play, I think, two years ago, and it is in the anthology, but thinking about what happens when abortion is no longer legal.
01:14:00
Speaker
Right. And like, what, how does that work kind of thing? So really prophetic kind of work and visionary playwright. And then Sharifa Yasmin is also like a playwright that I also adore. Right. And is really thinking about, you know, people in context that we wouldn't normally imagine. Right.
01:14:19
Speaker
thinking about what it means to be trans in a southern kind of experience, in a very rural southern type of space. What does homecoming mean in these kinds of contexts? So these are three fabulous playwrights that I'm digging on right now.
01:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, love it. And then what do you think that, you know, I think we've talked about this, but what do you think the American theater needs now from new play dramaturgs?
01:14:51
Speaker
I think there's one really big thing that you would put your finger on. And we've kind of talked about this already. I actually think the question should be reversed. It's what do new play dramaturgs need from the American theater? And I think it's a lot.
01:15:13
Speaker
Right. I think one of them is just the respect, right? I think the other is to be paid, right? I think the other is to really understand the urgency, right, of having these amazing artists inside of the rooms. And I think, you know, what you were talking about earlier, that like I'm putting dramaturgs everywhere, right? I think that the American theater needs to be doing the same thing, right? So to me, I feel like
01:15:44
Speaker
we need to be asking from them, right? And the ways that they need to be rethinking, reimagining, I don't know, their relationship to the work that they're making and the work that they're producing. And what the hell does that mean if you don't have a dramaturg inside of the room? Yes, all of that. And then best advice for new play artists, new play dramaturgs?
01:16:14
Speaker
I think I would say, I think I would say to not try to fit the mold of what you think a dramaturg is supposed to be. Our field, it's hard to say like, oh, it's a sort of new field, but it's not really a new, it's not, they had dramaturgs or this kind of writing, even, you know, the Egyptians, right, had this.
01:16:39
Speaker
thinking about their parades and celebrations and things like that. So it's an extremely old field, right? And I feel like there's been a more or less singular idea of like what a dramaturg is, like Fornes was talking about, right? Or how a dramaturg works or functions. And I think the sky's the limit, right? So my thing is, you know,
01:17:03
Speaker
I wouldn't try to be like somebody else. I would be the dramaturg that I'm supposed to be in this world. And maybe that's a new play dramaturg. Maybe that's a production dramaturg. Maybe that's a community relations dramaturg. Maybe it's something we haven't even heard of or have a title for yet. But to me, the field hasn't been excavated enough, right, to say, oh, you should do this or you should do that. There's a million different pathways to becoming a dramaturg, right? And so to me,
01:17:30
Speaker
We need all of that diversity. We need all of that difference. We need all of these beautiful thinking, feeling people to be inside of these rooms in the very unique ways that only they can, right? And so to me, it would be to discover the dramaturg that you're supposed to be and to not stop discovering who that person is. That is fantastic advice. And I think
01:18:00
Speaker
artists who are trying to compare or be like someone else, encourage you to not be yourself fully. Absolutely. I mean, I was just thinking the other day someone had asked, like, how did you get to be this place that you are in? And it's like, I don't know. I just always followed my passion. It's like, I'm interested in this. I might want to do that. I want to live in this kind of place. I'm interested in all kinds of different things.
01:18:29
Speaker
And they make me a really good dramaturg for the places where I'm supposed to contribute. I'm not supposed to contribute everywhere as a dramaturg, but the places that I'm supposed to, I'm uniquely matched to do that particular work or to make those kinds of contributions.
01:18:47
Speaker
So to me, it's like all of your instinct, because I think we can never develop our instinct enough, right? And so I think that's such an important skill of a dramaturg is to be able to be in touch with that inner instinct, that inner artist. And so I would just say become the best dramaturg that you can be, or the one that you're supposed to become. Explore everything in life, right? Because that's what we're bringing into the room.
01:19:17
Speaker
The more we explore about life, the more we have to contribute to the rooms that we're going to be in.
01:19:24
Speaker
That's incredible advice. So to be a really well-rounded theater artist and especially dramaturg, you need to go live your life. Don't just spend all your time rehearsing and being in a theater. Oh my goodness. Do lots of different things and don't let anyone stop you from trying something new, right? Don't let anyone. Because first of all, they probably don't even know what a dramaturg is, right? So you can define what that is for you and how you want to contribute or feel like you can best contribute.
01:19:54
Speaker
Maybe it's bringing in several dramaturgs and they all are contributing in all of these different kinds of ways. I mean, why do we need just one dramaturk in the room? We need a room that's boiling over with ideas. And so that happens when we bring people who have
01:20:10
Speaker
you know, have something to offer into the space. And so I say, let's not limit ourselves and what our contributions can be, because I think the dramaturge is really suited to be able to be that visionary who casts that wide net, who builds that bridge between the work and the world in ways that we just haven't thought about yet, but that will penetrate the heart in ways that no other kind of work can do.
01:20:41
Speaker
Well, I think that's a good place to stop. That's a beautiful place. I think that's a wonderful place. And where can people find you and connect with you? Yeah, absolutely. You can connect with me on Instagram at Afar Schiller. You can connect with me at my website. That's where a lot of people find me at AngelaSchiller.com. Awesome. Keep it simple. Awesome. Yeah.
01:21:07
Speaker
Thank you so much, Angela, for joining us. It is such an honor to have you, my dear friend. Y'all, I'm your host, Amber Bradshaw, and I will chat with you next time. Thank you. Bye. You just listened to an episode of Table Work, how plays get made with Amber Bradshaw. A very special thank you to WTP member Minka Wiltz for our intro theme and vocals.
01:21:34
Speaker
Cup of Sea Designs for our show graphic, and you. Thank you for listening. Tablework is a podcast brought to you by Working Title Playwrights. If you like what you heard today, you can be a part of it. Support this podcast and all our initiatives by leaving us a review, following us, and consider making a tax-deductible donation to Working Title Playwrights at www.workingtitelplaywrights.com.