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The Art of Giving and Receiving Feedback with Rebekah Suellau
143 Plays1 year ago
In this episode Amber talks with Rebekah Suellau, a dramaturg, educator and former staff member of Working Title Playwrights. Rebekah was the Associate Development Artist from 2018-2020 and was pivotal in the re-structuring and development of WTP programming. One of the programs we focused on the most is our Monday Night Development Workshops, a foundational program. Rebekah and Amber talk in depth about the Rules of Engagement we created and why, and break down the reasons for why we believe that talkbacks and feedback are essential to new play development. Rebekah does an exceptional job of outlining and explaining all the facets of this work. Tune in to learn more about the Art of Giving and Receiving Feedback, an essential part of New Play Dramaturgy!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Mission
00:00:07
Speaker
When we own our own subjective experience of the text, we can offer that as a way to grant the playwright insight into their impact, which they can then weigh against their intention and close the gap in revision. That is the sweet spot for me.
00:00:32
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made. My name is Amber Bradshaw, and I am a new play dramaturg arts administrator and educator.
Overview of Working Title Playwrights
00:00:42
Speaker
On this podcast, I chat with theater makers about the art of new play dramaturgy.
00:00:47
Speaker
What exactly is new play dramaturgy? Our mission here is to demystify the process of creation and collaboration, explore ways to better our field, share tools to diversify and improve the work and record what we discover. This podcast is brought to you by Working Title Playwrights, a new play incubator and service organization based in Atlanta, Georgia, in which I serve as the managing artistic director.
Guest Introduction: Rebecca Suela and Her Role
00:01:11
Speaker
For more about WTP and me, check out workingtitelplaywrights.com.
00:01:16
Speaker
I'd like to start by introducing y'all to our guests today, Rebecca Suela. Thank you so much for being here, Rebecca. It's such an honor to have you. Thank you. It is my honor and pleasure to be here.
00:01:29
Speaker
So Rebecca is a writer, director, and dramaturg, who has been focused on new play development in Atlanta since 2013. She has worked as a producer with the Seedling Project and the Weird Sisters Theater Project and spent two years as the associate development artist for Working Title Playwrights. She teaches dramatic writing at Georgia State University and is a resident dramaturg with Working Title Playwrights. Up next, she'll be directing a reading of longtime collaborator, Darryl Fazio's new work,
00:01:55
Speaker
We are all waves on the same ocean as part of the Unexpected Play Festival on April 26, produced by Theatrical Outfit in partnership with Working Title Playwrights. So Rebecca and I met in 2019.
00:02:09
Speaker
when I approached her to be the very first working title playwright's part-time staff member. And her role as associate development artist was pivotal in establishing the guidelines and structures for WTP programming, among many things. So I want to take a moment and acknowledge your contributions to the work that we do at Working Title and the field of new play dramaturgy. If I could see your extra brain, I really would. Thank you so much. I learned so much in our time.
00:02:36
Speaker
a beautiful community and a great lab for learning. That is
Defining the Role of a New Play Dramaturg
00:02:43
Speaker
the truth. I completely agree. I completely agree. So let's start with some rapid fire definitions of a new play dramaturg. I'll throw one out and you throw one out. We'll do that a few times. Gorgeous. That's fun. All right. An unsung hero. A mirror. A translator. The keeper of the spirit of the play. A traveler.
00:03:06
Speaker
The first best audience. I love that one. I love that one. That's something I feel like we don't talk about enough that we are the first audience and that first read is so important, right? Absolutely. Yes. Speaking of Xeroxing brains, I really try as a dramaturg to really capture my experience as precisely as possible, even if it means
00:03:31
Speaker
misunderstanding things, acknowledging where I got it totally wrong and my own questions get answered a few pages later.
Rebecca's Transition from Film to Theater
00:03:40
Speaker
Really just trying to capture and share that first experience and let the playwright in on the inner process of a first audience is really, really valuable.
00:03:55
Speaker
Love it. I agree. So tell us a bit about you and your artistic journey. How did you come to New Play Dramaturgy?
Trust and Responsibility in Dramaturgy
00:04:04
Speaker
Well, I was working as a writer and director, and I actually was working primarily in film. And a close collaborator of mine wrote her first play and asked me to direct. And so that brought me into the theater space where I just fell in love with
00:04:25
Speaker
the process of rehearsing and unpacking and getting to know the play and something about having occupied already so many of the seats in the room, having been a playwright, having been a director. Dramaturgy was the last piece in the mix, but it felt so natural and organic to sort of occupy the space between some of those seats.
00:04:53
Speaker
I love that, I love that. So it was like you tried them all out and you landed here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I still have quite a hat rack of all the hats that I wear. But really, I think as a dramaturg, that process of, like you said, translating between the playwright and the director, between the playwright and the audience, between the play and the playwright sometimes,
00:05:20
Speaker
It's such a boon to be able to be fluent in the other languages in order to translate, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Being a multi-hyphenate really is such a gift. Yeah, yeah. I don't know that I could have been an effective dramaturg had I not taken on other roles first. So how do you look at new plate dramaturgy like for yourself and how it functions in your life?
00:05:48
Speaker
you know, like beyond your work as well. You know, it's such a big, big field, right? So I just kind of love to hear how those who identify as new play dramaturg sort of see it in their life and work. Yeah, what a fascinating question. So I think for me, to be a new play dramaturg is a tremendous gift. There is so much trust in the process of handing
00:06:18
Speaker
this unfinished and yet ready for new eyes, you know, peace project to hand that over requires a tremendous amount of trust and vulnerability. And so I really feel very honored when I am able to kind of midwife that
Approach to Feedback in Theater
00:06:40
Speaker
process. I take it very seriously and very tenderly. And, um,
00:06:47
Speaker
For me, I really, I just want so much to see a world where we are able to share our truths and hold one another's truths and nuclei dramaturgy is
00:07:02
Speaker
one facet of a way that I can contribute to that in the bigger picture of my life as an artist. I love that. I love that as an answer. So let's talk about feedback. You are a huge component to how we do feedback.
00:07:20
Speaker
And your feedback on my moderating and my work has been intrinsic to how it's developed. And I know you have a lot of really incredible ideas around best approaches to giving and receiving feedback. So when it comes to this absolutely extremely crucial part of our work and development, how do you start and what is your personal approach? I think that it's very important
00:07:47
Speaker
to introduce a pause into feedback. And this is something that actually really the seed came planted from your work and from our work with the Monday Night Development Workshops because we would always take that one minute to just pause before we launched into feedback. And that one minute became
00:08:13
Speaker
a rabbit trail and a first step on a path that I really follow. I think when we take the time to pause, we are able to respond authentically, as opposed to react. And we can never stop or fully protect any artist from reactive response. Of course not, but I really
00:08:42
Speaker
foreground the importance of responding rather than reacting. So where I start is to introduce that pause and specifically when I'm working with my students, this is a place that I've continued to really develop these ideas. There are certain keywords and giveaways that
00:09:05
Speaker
sort of show us when we're in react mode. And so I take those reactive words off the table for them. And it's really, it's a delight to watch them sort of catch themselves. But much like the Monday night sessions, the keywords that we watch out for when we're giving feedback are good and bad.
00:09:29
Speaker
which you can extrapolate out into value judgments. I take value judgments off the table, especially anything that lands in a place of supposed objectivity. I tell my students, there is no way to really differentiate between whether someone is responding to your work
00:09:53
Speaker
or responding to some inner thing, to their own past, any process of feedback is going to be at best 50-50 about the work and about the person giving the feedback. So I try to guide us toward acknowledging that. And when we make these like good, bad value judgments, there is no, we ignore any sort of criterion.
00:10:18
Speaker
for goodness and badness, and we deny the subjectivity of those criteria. So with good and bad, I just don't find it helpful at the end of the day. It also creates, when we make value judgments, it creates this separateness between the person giving feedback and the person receiving feedback. This is what leads to that feeling like you're in front of a firing squad.
00:10:46
Speaker
This is what leads to that feeling like you're on trial somehow. It really introduces a huge chasm between the artist and the audience that frankly disempowers the artist, making them feel like the audience holds all the power to determine their
00:11:11
Speaker
goodness or badness at the end of the day. I've seen a lot of harm done from those sorts of value judgments. So that is the first thing that is off the table. A little bit better than that is when we talk about what we like and dislike. So we're no longer sitting like on a cloud on high, judging the merits of all things creative. But frankly, we still can't do very much.
00:11:41
Speaker
with somebody's personal preferences. It's not specific enough to actually understand the essence of the response of what flavor of like or dislike. So we take those off the table as well. If we do stay in the world of like and dislike and personal preference,
00:12:10
Speaker
it can lend to a lot of people pleasing in the creative process, right? We're chasing likes. And that, I think, can be a real betrayal of your own creative impulse. Not to mention that it can shut off some of the playwrights immediately. And then they don't hear the feedback that's offered that might actually be useful, right? Absolutely. Yes. All of this, we're really looking at ways of communicating, ways of giving feedback.
00:12:40
Speaker
that are more likely to be heard, anything that comes at the playwright with the, you did this, or even the play does this, both of those set us up for a very human reaction of defending, explaining, justifying. And that's just not possible. Not only is it unhelpful,
00:13:07
Speaker
But you can't just run after your work every place you've submitted it, every place you've sent it, defending, explaining, and justifying. So I really like us to, when we own our own subjective experience of the text, we can offer that as a way to grant the playwright insight into their impact.
00:13:36
Speaker
which they can then weigh against their intention and close the gap and revision. That is the sweet spot for me in terms of everything we take off the table. This is why this is what we're trying to fill that in with. Yeah. I mean, the idea that any of us are anything but subjective is we know this not to be true, right? And we have to acknowledge this and feedback as well. Um, and I think too, I want to mention the,
00:14:05
Speaker
Um, Monday night development workshops are sort of our foundational program with working title. Um, and when, when you were on staff, we spent quite a bit of time re adapting and recreating that program. And what it is is, um, essentially it's three to four scripts in the course of, uh, two to four hour, two to three hours. Each script is 13 pages long.
00:14:29
Speaker
Each script gets a minute of silence right after the reading by actors of our ensemble, and then we have about 15 minutes of feedback, which is moderated by a dramaturg and done in a specific style that Rebecca and I developed.
00:14:45
Speaker
which is very much based in this foundational conversation we're having. I think, too, it's important to note the Monday Night Development workshops are very much a community building program, really trying to connect our artists. So we have introductions and plugs during it. So it becomes a space for people to connect and to see each other as fellow humans and fellow artists. And it's a very diverse group of people.
00:15:09
Speaker
So it becomes a program that needs a lot of structure so that we can manage how the feedback comes through. And so in that we created a whole set of guidelines together, one of which was avoid the use of like or dislike, which I can say, and I'm sure you had the same experience that people always laugh or they look at you crazy when you say that rule. And I always had to explain, well, it's just not useful to the playwright. You know, it's, we're here to go back and work on the script.
00:15:38
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. These conversation enders as opposed to conversation starters, that there's such a tendency to want to sound clever to get that mic drop moment. But when the mic is dropped, usually the mic breaks. There's not much to come after that. And we're not interested in ending the discussion.
00:16:07
Speaker
Okay, so for the rules for the Monday nights, we have raise your hand to speak, which we do because I find that if you allow people to just pop in, they end up interrupting each other a lot, and then there becomes sort of a discomfort for folks with that. And those who are shy or introverted may not be comfortable jumping up or jumping in, right? Yeah, yeah, it's hard enough for them to raise their hand.
00:16:32
Speaker
Exactly. And also sometimes offering for those folks a little bit longer to come up with maybe raising their hand or giving a moment to those who maybe have not spoken yet, which is something I love. But then our second rule is, you know, snap if you agree, which is a consensus rule, right?
00:16:53
Speaker
which was in place before we both started but is beautiful because it really saves a lot of time and efficiency and feedback, right? Absolutely, yes. That's one that I carry over into the classroom as well. The way I explain it there is that we have so many perspectives here and so much to get through, so many scripts. So rather than piggybacking, rather than repeating
00:17:19
Speaker
If we can create a quick auditory sense of consensus, which snapping does, then we are able to prioritize getting a quantity of perspective into the room. We make space for disagreement and other ideas by showing quickly how agreement is landing.
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah, such a good point. And of course, we also included a rule speak from I later on in the process to give people a sense that if they didn't agree with somebody else in the audience, there was no need to mention they didn't agree. And they could just share their opinion, right? Because then I have had some very uncomfortable situations where audience members have gotten into arguments or were continuing to go back and forth about something. And it just felt very
00:18:12
Speaker
sort of damaging to the process, right? Absolutely, absolutely. There's no need and really no point for anyone to be right in their perception of the text.
00:18:28
Speaker
Right. A piece of a work of art. Exactly. You're all inherently right. You perceived it. That's what you perceived. It is inarguable. There is no need for argument. Yes. Yes. I think when I had a situation like that, I had to stop the folks in the audience and say, this is really helpful. The playwright now knows that you have completely opposite opinions. We're going to move on because that's really great. We know it now. Yes, that's perfect.
00:18:56
Speaker
You know, and it happened to be theater artists. So I was kind of like, I think they can handle that. You know, the idea that we get you and let's move on. Because we do want to know if you have differing opinions, but there's no need to be like, well, I don't agree
Playwrights' Boundaries in Feedback Sessions
00:19:10
Speaker
with you. Right. Well, no, it's not. Again, it's not about right or wrong. It's about, well, this was my experience. Absolutely. And it's so important in a situation like that where there is a moderator
00:19:24
Speaker
that the moderator not prioritize one opinion, right? When there's that space of disagreement, knowing that you are in a privileged position in the space, really doing your very best to sit out of any sort of disagreement or argument and not wait your response by your space in the room.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things we discovered was that it was really helpful if moderators waited to share any feedback they might have until the end of sections. And also to focus any feedback they might have on connecting the dots for the playwrights or potentially determining consensus ideas that would be useful, right, rather than guiding the feedback by their personal opinion at the beginning of that section. Absolutely. Yeah, the role is sort of
00:20:19
Speaker
summarizing and consolidating as opposed to picking and choosing and contributing. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think what was it? I think we use the word referee in our moderator guy. That sounds about right. I like that because it feels fun too. Yeah.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And so for you, what other rules do you like to use? Do you, you know, we have, in our rules for MNDW, we have be kind, be courteous. We have avoid suggestions on how to rewrite the play. Yeah, I also continue to work with that one. How do you like to describe that one?
00:21:01
Speaker
All right, so it's fun. I get a little sassy with it. So the watch words that I use for that, the hints that we're stepping into that space are what if or should. So what if means we're going into a brainstorming place. Should means that again, we're suddenly making a value judgment. There is a right or wrong way to do it.
00:21:28
Speaker
So we avoid suggested narratives. Our flags for them are what if and should. And it's not off the table completely to use this kind of language. There are given relationships. There are given stages in the process where you absolutely need that, where you are stuck up against a wall and you've got someone that you trust and you are like, what makes sense to you here?
00:21:55
Speaker
You might ask as the playwright, what should happen here? But the space for that is not an open feedback. That to me contributes to a space where suddenly everybody gets very excited and we're all very creatively brainstorming and the playwright may even be enjoying it, but they get home and they go to implement these suggestions, these ideas, and they're not organic.
00:22:24
Speaker
to the person sitting down to do it anymore. And so suddenly they feel like they are no longer writing their play or they don't feel like they want to write it at all. They don't know how to serve these ideas that are everybody else's that are not intrinsic or organic to the thing that they were trying to do. So the way that I lay this out is if you are inspired and so clear as to
00:22:54
Speaker
the what ifs and the shoulds. Congratulations, it sounds like you have an idea for a play. Go write it. Absolutely. I think too, it's kind of like adding a lot of clutter to the playwright brain, right? And asking them to question their intuition or their own personal beliefs about what should happen in their own story, right?
00:23:21
Speaker
Absolutely and not even asking them to question which is a valid process. It's great to question It's great to bounce up against things, you know when you're very very hungry You're like, what do you want to eat? Somebody's like, I don't know but if you offer
00:23:36
Speaker
suddenly they're quite clear on what they want to eat, right? They don't watch your emergency granola bar. They want a whole pizza and they knew it. It's great to be asked and invited to question, but to be told again with that sense of brightness and wrongness, you should do this or this needs this. That is more, I think, defeating and deflating.
00:24:04
Speaker
And not everybody is in a place to receive that invitation to question, right? So it can be useful, but it can also be harmful. I think this kind of turns us a little bit on a corner of what's important in receiving feedback as well, having those boundaries in place for yourself, having that clarity
Working Title's Development Workshops
00:24:31
Speaker
of what it is that you are seeking from the feedback process. So many of us can come in with these unacknowledged things that we're seeking, validation, approval, acceptance, permission to have the opinions that we have, right? And none of those things are really, again, there are places that you can go, there are hopefully
00:25:01
Speaker
collaborators and people that you can turn to in the process and say, this is what I'm meeting right now. Here's my new thing. Will you read it and tell me it's great, right? It's very important to have those people in your corner. But an open feedback to come in wanting or needing that can be devastating because you are moving into the space where you might not get it. And then what? And even if you do get it,
00:25:30
Speaker
the best case scenario is you're just puffed up and feeling great, which is cool for a day or two, but what are you going to do with the play after that? Yeah. I mean, has that feedback been actually useful to you from a revision standpoint, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In terms of developing praise can be just as much of a conversation ender as a harsh critique. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:58
Speaker
And I feel like, you know, saying, I like it. I mean, when I first started with Working Title, people would say, oh my God, I love this so much. And then the next piece would come up and nobody would say they loved it so much. And I was like, ouch, we've already got a problem here, right? I think that was one of the other reasons we pulled it out. Yeah, absolutely. Even before my students were in full feedback mode, we were talking about this very thing and I was like,
00:26:26
Speaker
I love that you love each other's work. I think it's wonderful if you want to go up privately to that person at the end of class and let them know. But just like you're saying, if we introduce the possibility of praise, then you don't even have to be mean for it to land as a harsh criticism, right? Neutral becomes negative. Nothing becomes a pain point if that kind of
00:26:56
Speaker
Applause is on the table at all, right? It's like what's missing will be noted just like in the play Yeah, yeah, absolutely and I've just seen that just break people's hearts. Yeah, just break their hearts Yeah, it can become it feels so rejecting Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then that's all they focus on and they miss all the feedback. Absolutely, you know I also I love this idea of talking about the playwright receiving the feedback and learning to
00:27:27
Speaker
you know, take what's useful and to know that, you know, don't go in with validation, wanting validation, because very likely you will be disappointed. I also think about, like, if a play like all the different stages of a piece, and how far along it is, and how polished it is, right? In our Monday nights, we may have something someone's been working on for five years, and then something someone literally wrote three days ago. Yeah. And
00:27:53
Speaker
That's the nature of the program. And for me, that's why it's exciting. But for folks who are not used to hearing work that is very early stage, right, may not understand that this is the beginning. And you have to approach the work where it is. Right. And so when we're when we have three or four pieces in a night,
00:28:15
Speaker
It's just so important to acknowledge that all the phases are different. They're coming from all these different voices and And for me like that's really exciting and if they're really different it's exciting, but I think that that is a a tool that we learn to develop Right. I feel like I have
00:28:34
Speaker
moved into understanding that as a dramaturg after many, many years of being able to read something and feel like, oh, well, I almost can feel how long this has been in development, right? Yeah. And that a lot of our audience members, even if they're theater artists or playwrights, may not realize that that stage of process being so intrinsic to the experience they're having that night with that play. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like holding a
00:29:02
Speaker
three year old up against a 16 year old and be like, you're not a very good driver. You know, it's just not fair. Looking at, looking at where it is and looking at what's next. Looking for the next best step.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, talking about the mission of the feedback, it's like the mission is what are our, what are the next best steps to take for this script? I think too, uh, probably should mention that, uh, for working title we use, we kind of work off the Liz Lerman response process, but it's pretty loose. And so our three main questions we always ask are do things resonate, uh, what resonates for you?
00:29:50
Speaker
What sticks out? What distracts you? Or sends you down a rabbit hole? And then the final is what questions do you have for the playwright? The playwright won't answer these questions. Am
Evolving Feedback Techniques
00:30:00
Speaker
I remembering correctly? Were you working with me still when we added the playwright questions to the program? Yes. That was a great development. We had some wonderful feedback on that. Do you remember what we decided on that? Some of the playwrights wanted to ask their own questions.
00:30:19
Speaker
And we had to decide where we were going to put that. Right, right. And so we decided to put it at the beginning before all of the other questions. Yes. And this was really exciting for me from a standpoint of like helping or guiding the playwright into wanting to find something or knowing that there's a mission for them. Absolutely.
00:30:41
Speaker
It was, I do remember that there are, there's still the trickiness, there's still the trickiness of some of those questions that would come up would be these shadow goals. These like, do you like it? Would you like to hear more? What on earth do you expect from that? Who's gonna say no? Like that's rough. If somebody is gonna just be like, no, I don't like it. Oh gosh. And if they do say yes,
00:31:10
Speaker
How can you even, like, how authentically can you really take that? You put people in a very awkward position. It's like the, you know, does this make my butt look big? Which is not a bad thing at all. But you know, it is that kind of question with no right answer. There's nothing really available there. So I encourage my students in particular to come with
00:31:39
Speaker
revision goals with draft goals that they have in mind so that they can ask those questions with more precision and guide them in direction of getting feedback along the things that they are actively working on, right? Then if they hear some stuff that is beyond what they're currently working on, they kind of just can put it in their notes in like a little second column, right? That is for maybe a future draft goal, but they don't have to be wailing
00:32:09
Speaker
by the unexpected. But yes, it's fantastic for the playwrights to be empowered to ask their own questions. I think that is tremendous. And also, they need to take accountability for making sure that those questions are really barking up the right tree. That they are appropriate for the context of the stage that they are at, the folks that they are asking.
00:32:38
Speaker
Right, absolutely. I've also had playwrights ask questions like, do you like this character? And I'm like, no, no, no, you just asking for them to say they don't like this character. It's what that feels like.
00:32:51
Speaker
Right, so like being careful to ask a question that's gonna actually elicit a negative response by the way the question is asked. So I've had to go back and say, maybe we could reframe this question and you could say, do any of the characters resonate more with you? Right, which character welcomes you into the story? Yeah, absolutely. Right, crafting those questions is so key. It is, it is a subtle work, but it really, it does come back to those core
00:33:21
Speaker
guidelines, the avoidance of value judgments, the avoidance of vague personal preference, aiming instead for specificity and precision, and the avoidance of suggesting shoulds, which is ultimately just a sneaky value judgment.
00:33:40
Speaker
Right. And I love how specific you make that by saying what if and should are the flags. So helpful. That's something you've developed on your own because we didn't do that. So I think that's great because I mean, that's part of what we're doing, but it's very clear. So you could say, you know, what does it mean to make a suggested narrative? Well, well, what if and should. Yeah. So that's, that's really helpful and really clear. Yeah.
00:34:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I think too, like, we also learned that it had to be fun to moderate and you had to enjoy yourself, right? And hopefully,
00:34:23
Speaker
lead the room with positive energy and good vibes and we're here to support the playwright. You know, that's something I think it's helpful. We have some of our moderators that will say the mission of MNDW is to support the playwright in their next steps for development, right? It's like, we need to say those things. Like we need to spell it out. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a space where I really want to hit
00:34:51
Speaker
a place where I honor the sacredness of this work, of this being present at the birthing of a thing without getting precious about it. There's a difference between sacred and precious. And precious doesn't have a lot of room for fun, doesn't have a lot of room for mistakes. Sacred includes all things.
00:35:22
Speaker
You know, it can be a little more holistic and it feels almost like an honoring of that intuitive process Absolutely, right rather than like well, we can't do it this way or we can't it's like what feels what feels right and and that you know honoring yourself and your needs through the process and and just being in collaboration at a table with other artists, you know, it feel it really does feel sacred when there is a
00:35:49
Speaker
deep connection happening between those people. Yeah. Yeah. A connection and a service, I think. In service too. Yeah. Part of why that emerged for me when you said, you know, it's important to stay in the mission, right? To remember that we're serving something.
00:36:07
Speaker
Mm. Right. As opposed to our own opinions. Absolutely. In this space. Yeah. Proving something. Right. To service a lot. To fix something. More beautiful than to prove or to fix. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. I think approaching new plate dramaturgy from a service perspective is really the only way to go about it. Yeah. When you say.
00:36:30
Speaker
Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. As soon as we decided to serve our own desires or ego, we get a little lost in what's needed in that process. Absolutely. I always tell dramaturgs that I'm training and say just please disassociate yourself from the product and from the final whatever is whatever happens at the end because that's the playwrights, you know, and that's the journey instead of expecting it to go one way or another or the way you think it should go.
00:37:00
Speaker
loving the journey of seeing where it goes. Absolutely. Yeah. There's a real need to be present, to be able to respond to where it is. And it's a little paradoxical because you are ultimately trying to get it somewhere, right? But you have to be present with where it is.
00:37:25
Speaker
for it to go anywhere and the attachment to an outcome or a specific expectation gets in the way of presence. That is such a great point. That is such a great point. I think especially when you're still trying to find the play, right? It's like, that's your process and it's so important that you keep that space open for yourself. Absolutely.
00:37:53
Speaker
Love it. Awesome. That actually moves me right into my next question, which is what do new play artists need from the American theater? What do you think they need? And how can we support them better? Well, first and foremost, they need to be asked what they need and listen to when they respond because what we need is going to be absolutely different
00:38:23
Speaker
depending on the person working, the play. For so long it's been, it's felt quite dangerous to ask for what you need because there's been such a scarcity mentality. There's been such a kind of gatekeeper structure that to feel like you have been chosen, you can get very afraid to fuck it up. And we have this mentality that
00:38:53
Speaker
asking for what I need might make me quote difficult, which might make me quote, fuck it up, which might mean I never get another shot. And so first and foremost, and almost only, I have other opinions, but almost only to be asked what we need to create that energetic space for permission.
00:39:23
Speaker
to have a need, permission to experiment, to take risks. All of that is so important. And then sharing of space. Space, I think, is a big deal. Space is probably
00:39:47
Speaker
one of the biggest deals and of course that space doesn't always need to be physical but a lot of times it does and so how do we share space, create space in ways that welcome
00:40:07
Speaker
risk and are less risk averse that's pretty critical experimental space i do i feel that there's a trend in that direction um i have seen significant growth in that area in the years that i've been working is it perfect is it done absolutely not but it's moving that's nice and then i would say the need for
00:40:38
Speaker
conceptions of structure that are non-hierarchical. So much of the prior and existing and currently cracking structures are so hierarchical. And this can lead to a real like burn it down impulse, right? It can make us want to get anarchic
00:41:07
Speaker
about it and just knock out structure completely. But we need structure because again of the tenderness of a new thing being born. We don't want to throw the baby into anarchy, but we also want to give it structure that is clear without being vertical. Horizontal structure.
00:41:37
Speaker
you know, where there are parameters, there are guidelines, but it's reciprocal, power is shared, and we have clear expectations, but they're also based in mutual agreements.
00:41:55
Speaker
Maybe this is overly idealistic, but ideals are what we're talking about here. Those are some of mine that I would love to see shared power, shared space, and a horizontal structure that allows everybody the gift of clarity so that they are safe to explore. Love it.
00:42:26
Speaker
I think too, the idea of shared space both in the rooms we build for the creative process and also like just the place to be in process. Just some theater that will provide space to artists coming up and share, right? And share their space when it's empty and make it possible for those of us who don't have
Resources for Artists
00:42:50
Speaker
spaces to do work as well, you know? Yeah.
00:42:54
Speaker
and to see the value that that can bring to the producer that is welcoming in local artists. Absolutely. Yeah. When I say space, I mean it metaphorically and also very literally. Love it. I love it.
00:43:15
Speaker
So I would love to hear some of the new play references or inspirations you'd like to share with our listeners. Yes. Okay. So I have two resources that have been absolutely crucial to my work in each seat in the theatrical space. And also they are not at all theatrical resources. So the first is the work of Julia Cameron.
00:43:42
Speaker
She is best known, I think, for the artist way, which is, I want to say 13 week sort of creative reawakening process. She guides us through journaling and she has really impacted the way I think about permission to create, permission to unpack and unseat the expectation of
00:44:10
Speaker
starving artists and the cultural myths around needing to suffer to make something of value. She really has welcomed me into a worldview where the art can be
00:44:27
Speaker
bubbling out of abundance and not from pain. Beautiful. So I really, really love her worldview. Her work has been tremendously supportive for me. The Artist Way is one of her processes. The Listening Path is her most recent book. This is all about creating space to be receptive as well as to be aware
00:44:55
Speaker
of what you're taking in, right? When you actually stop to listen, how is that constant grinding of the train tracks affecting you or whatever it may be? But really opening up the receptive side of the artistic mind. It's not just about what you're putting out. How are you aware of what you're taking in? How good are you at listening?
00:45:25
Speaker
to the world around you because that directly connects to how good you are at listening to the work that wants to be born from you. So I adore Julia Cameron and would recommend her to any artist and even those who vehemently deny their own creativity. She can help us all to find a way to live more creatively and generously, I think.
00:45:55
Speaker
And the second resource is the work of Marshall Rosenberg in nonviolent communication. This has been a really big influence on me in terms of the way that we communicate around needs, the way that when we can get down to the needs being expressed rather than the opinions or the strategies,
00:46:22
Speaker
there are a finite amount of human needs and they are profoundly shared. So if we can begin to come from an awareness of needs, release our strategy and release any motive of praise and punish, right? Because as we've discussed, one really creates the other.
00:46:47
Speaker
where we can work with needs and meeting the needs of all without needing to operate from a win-lose dynamic in communication.
00:47:00
Speaker
This is absolutely tremendous. Now it is tricky. I will say plays thrive on the win-lose dynamic. Plays have a lot of violent communication with them. Of course, that's kind of the essence of what we call conflict, which is what we call drama. But I am so curious to see what sort of theater could emerge modeling nonviolent communication.
00:47:31
Speaker
What kind of stories would we tell from that space? And in terms of ways of giving and receiving feedback, it is an absolute game changer. His perspective is so tremendous. And also in terms of sharing power in the room and acknowledging the institutional racism that impacts us, all of these modes of toxic hierarchy,
00:48:01
Speaker
Nonviolent communication really brings us into shared humanness while allowing for difficult conversations to be neither won nor lost, but to be managed in service of meeting the human needs of all involved. So I would firmly, again, recommend that. And I challenge a playwright to write a nonviolent play. Truly, truly nonviolent play.
00:48:30
Speaker
I love that challenge. I think it's a fantastic one. I think there's a lot to be said for questioning the way we build story now and the way we think of conflict and the way we think of, like for me, what I want moment to moment, I may have no clue, right? So the idea of the super objective and what the character wants for me, I'm like, sometimes I'm not sure.
00:48:53
Speaker
if that feels completely on point for me as a human, right? If I as a person don't know what I want in every moment, why would the character? So I often challenge that for myself. I think that's super useful for an actor, but is it as useful for the story building itself and can we separate the two potentially and still use them, right? I mean, there's just so much
00:49:17
Speaker
we can consider about breaking apart what we already know and still using it, right? And that's, because that's been my question too, is can you write a play that's not based on conflict and still write a play?
00:49:30
Speaker
Or is conflict the wrong word? Maybe it's about, well, this person has these triggers and this person has these triggers. Let's put them in a room and see what happens when those triggers get set off. That's still conflict, but it's a different way of approaching it, which is character-driven rather than, here's a plot point. Let's drop this thing in and see what happens. So I'm always asking that question. How can we break up what we think of?
00:49:56
Speaker
as the way to do it, and I love that you have mentioned this book because I read it twice this winter for the first time. I love that you mentioned it. It is incredible. It changed my life. I feel so, I completely resonate with everything you have to say about it. I think, and it is one of those foundational works in this kind of communication. I mean, he is well known if you study this work at all, but
00:50:23
Speaker
If you haven't heard of them, you know, most of the people who work in this kind of field today, they know who he is, you know, because this book is so important and it's really not very long. It's quite, it's pretty short. It's quite short. It has big print and it says the same thing a lot of different ways. It's incredibly accessible. It really is. It really is. And I think his take on anger too really blew my mind.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah. Not an emotion. It's not an emotion. Anger is a signal of an unmet need. Exactly. And I was like, wow. Wow. That is so resonant. So I love that you brought that up. I honestly feel like actually Matt Torney said in the interview we did in episode three, he said, I think the most important tool in a collaboration room or in new play development is emotional intelligence.
00:51:18
Speaker
And I think that nonviolent communication teaches that in a community, like very focused in on the communication aspects of emotional intelligence.
00:51:29
Speaker
And so I just, I love you brought that up and I hope folks will consider looking into that book because it's pretty amazing. Yeah. Oh, I love that you've been reading it too. Yes. The mind
Recommended Playwrights and Dramaturgs
00:51:40
Speaker
melt. Yes. I mean, I've been taking in a lot of different kinds of thought leader content, you know, Emergent Strategies by Adrienne Marie Brown. It's one of my favorite books I've read a few times because I'm constantly thinking about what it means to create a space for people
00:51:56
Speaker
you know, and and how to build that in a way that is that is sustainable and healthy and efficient and like connected, right? And I think it's just it's very it has to be deeply intentional. And I think I get a little obsessed with it. And I think that's part of why I do what I do. So I think it's it's such an incredible tool on violent communication for artists to come together and work with one another.
00:52:26
Speaker
We just don't listen enough. We often want to just tell somebody that we have a different idea. But you know, those two ideas can exist in one place at the same time. Yeah, because they do. They already are. It's happening. There's nothing to fight. Love it. Yeah.
00:52:52
Speaker
So I'd love to hear three playwrights that you'd like to mention that you want to lift up today. Okay. So I will start with the very first playwright who drew me into the theater. Her name is Alexandra Landers. She's currently based in Austin and she's doing quite a lot of visual art these days, but she,
00:53:17
Speaker
opened my whole world to what theater could be. We were both at the time filmmakers studying at Florida State University and she wrote her first play. She wanted me to direct it and that is one of the greatest gifts anyone has ever given me, that little 10-minute play that she handed me because it opened me into a whole new world and a different way of conceiving of the possibility of theater. Her work is
00:53:47
Speaker
wildly magical and deeply personal and very human and simultaneously raw and incredibly polished. It's really a treasure. So I recommend finding her work where you can and producing it if you have the capacity to do so. I also want to upload Dr. Kani Degas who
00:54:16
Speaker
was based in Atlanta until quite recently and she's now at Dancing Grounds in New Orleans. Candy is an incredible artist who is absolutely fearless and brings her, she's also, she's a minister in addition to her creative work and she brings this tremendous spirituality into the work that just
00:54:45
Speaker
It thrums with life and soul and meaning, and she's really in there working stuff out and challenging us to do the same. Her work always opens my eyes and my heart. I love to work with her. Candy once told me, since you've mentioned her, she said, collectives or organizations or groups or entities, they're always living and dying all at once. And I was like, wow.
00:55:15
Speaker
That's it. That's why I love her. So beautiful. So beautiful. And then a third playwright I'd like to uplift is Nathan Jerpy, who is a member of Working Title. That's how we came to work together. And he's the playwright I mentioned a little earlier with the
00:55:38
Speaker
serialized theatrical experiment. We've been in process in developing this together for several years. And the project is called Flaze Anatomy. We are just beginning to open it out into audience stages so you can keep eyes out for that. But I am blown away by the, again, the courage, the chutzpah as well, just to
00:56:07
Speaker
radically re-imagine what theater can do to continue writing a work, even when you are deeply unsure of its medium, just to keep going and doing it in different ways. A boldly experimental spirit and deeply dedicated to what the work asks of him. So I strongly recommend Nathan Gierke's work as well.
00:56:35
Speaker
love Nathan, such an imaginative artist. Just absolutely so just so creative. Yes. It's it's been wonderful to see him bloom into this work with you. I'm so glad that he has your support. Oh, working together. It is so easy. You know, I read a lot. I read a lot of plays. I read a lot of screenplays. It's pretty special for me to see something and be
00:57:03
Speaker
knocked out. When I say I've never seen anything like this, that's got some weight behind it. It's true. I second that. It's true. It's true. I love it. I'm so excited to see where this work goes with him. It's so great. Me too. So new play artists you'd like to lift up could be dramaturics, could be anybody in a new play field.
00:57:28
Speaker
Yes, so I've learned quite a lot about dramaturgy. Starting with, I'd like to start with Celisa Kalki, who works with Synchronicity Theatre now. When I first moved to Atlanta, Celisa was working at the Alliance Theatre, and she was really uplifting to work there, and I got to assist her on several world premieres that they were doing.
00:57:56
Speaker
the way that she asks questions, the presence that she carries in a room, her absolute commitment to her own tastes and preferences while also acknowledging that those are her own tastes and preferences, the phrase play math, the reality of breaking into the nitty gritty and the
00:58:23
Speaker
the logical, rational side of new play development, noting any sort of gaps in consistency, not just the dreamy feeliness of it, which came quite natural to me, but Celisa's rigor was such a huge inspiration and gift to me. So I love what she has done for new plays in Atlanta and beyond. I really appreciate her and her mentorship.
00:58:50
Speaker
Dr. Angela Farshiller, who is another resident dramaturg with working title. I've had the privilege of both watching her work and working alongside of her. And she is incredibly sensitive. She is just, and I don't need sensitive in like a precious way. I mean, she is listening with like every fiber of her being.
00:59:18
Speaker
She is feeling into a text and her attunement to the specific questions and the precision with which she phrases them. The questions that seem to, honestly, they don't even seem to emerge from her. It's like she is tuning into the questions that the play is asking and bringing them into the room with incredible clarity.
00:59:45
Speaker
I have really learned a lot about the art of asking questions from my time in her presence. So those are two dramaturgical heroes that I have. And in a space of just new play artists, someone who really is deeply multi-hyphenate, holds all the seats. I love to uplift Danny Hurd, whose work I have worked with Danny
01:00:14
Speaker
as an actor when I was directing, as a dramaturg when I was directing, as a playwright and serving as their dramaturg and serving as the director of their place. So we have really cross-pollinated in so many ways and I continue to be absolutely floored by the way that they fold in all of their gifts, all of their niche interests and
Advice for New Play Artists
01:00:40
Speaker
create something profoundly holistic, really a body of work.
01:00:44
Speaker
that is inspiring and exciting. I would put them in any seat, in any room confidently. Love it. So I'd love finally to hear your best advice for new play artists, especially playwrights and dramaturgs. My best advice for new play artists, playwrights, dramaturgs,
01:01:14
Speaker
Trust yourself, trust yourself enough to be receptive to other people's perspectives, right? But that's not a threat to you. But trust yourself enough as well to know what wants to come through you and to differentiate between what rings true in your bones and what isn't your truth to carry or offer.
01:01:44
Speaker
self-trust is profound. Snaps to that. So where can our listeners connect with you and keep up with your work? I am unfortunately a little unpredictable. I'm trying to work on my consistency. So now that I'm out there, I can hold myself accountable. That's probably the most reliable place to catch me is on Instagram at Becca Suella.
01:02:14
Speaker
B-E-K-A-H-S-U-E-L-L-A-U. It doesn't look like it sounds. So I spell it out. But that's probably the most reliable place to find me for now. Awesome. And of course, with my dramaturgy work, they can find me through Working Title if they're interested in collaborating with me. Yes, absolutely, yes. And that's through me, so that would be emailing me at managing at workingtidalplaywrights.com.
01:02:42
Speaker
So I am just so pleased that we've had this conversation today. It is such a gift to speak with you. Thank you so much for joining us. Truly. Thank you. My heart is full. It's been a delight. Thank you.
Closing and Call to Action
01:02:55
Speaker
I'm your host, Amber Bradshaw, and I will chat with you next time.
01:03:01
Speaker
Thank you listeners for tuning in to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made with Amber Bradshaw. This podcast was brought to you by Working Title Playwrights. If you like what you've heard today, support this podcast and all our initiatives by leaving us a review, following us, and or consider making a tax-deductible donation to Working Title Playwrights at www.workingtitelplaywrights.com.