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Dramaturging the Organization and Collective Questioning with Lynde Rosario
77 Plays1 year ago
In this episode Amber talks with Lynde Rosario, a new play dramaturg who wears many hats: Director of Fellowships at the Playwright's Center, President of the Literary Managers and Dramaturgs of the Americas (LMDA), and Impact Accessment Director at the National New Play Network. We discuss the vibrant creative community being nurtured in Minnesota, the LMDA conference and the resources the organization offers. the importance of collective questioning to create more inclusive structures, and finally - what artists need most from the American theatre.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Mission
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made. My name is Amber Bradshaw, and I am a new play dramaturg, arts administrator, and educator. The mission of this podcast is to demystify the process of creation and collaboration, explore ways to better our field, share tools to diversify and improve the work, and record what we discover.
Exploring Dramaturgy and Theater's Future
00:00:30
Speaker
On this episode, we ask some questions. What is new play dramaturgy, and how do we do it?
00:00:36
Speaker
What do artists want to see in the future of the American theater? Where are we failing in the creative process and how can we solve these concerns?
Role of Working Title Playwrights
00:00:44
Speaker
This podcast is brought to you by Working Title Playwrights, a new play incubator and service organization based in Atlanta, Georgia, in which I serve as the managing artistic director.
Need for Responsive Art Development
00:00:54
Speaker
For more about WTP and me, check out www.workingtitelplaywrights.com.
00:01:02
Speaker
They need people to listen. They need people to take them seriously, to trust that they have already done the identifying of what their needs are. And when they are articulating them to you, be responsive. They need more responsive producers. They need more responsive development houses. And, you know, they need more resources that are reliable, you know.
Introducing Lindy Rosario
00:01:30
Speaker
So I would like to start today by introducing you to our guest, Lindy Rosario. Thank you so much for being here, Lindy.
00:01:38
Speaker
Lovely to be here. Thanks for having me, Amber. So Lindy is a dramaturg and the Director of Fellowship Programs at the Minneapolis Playwrights Center. She is also the Impact Assessment Director for the National New Play Network and the President of the Literary Managers and Dramaturgs of the Americas. Current and former affiliations include the Kennedy Center for American College Theater Festival, Playwrights Realm,
00:02:04
Speaker
Working Theatre Company, Curious Theatre Company, Denver Center for the Performing Arts Theatre Company, The Catamounts, Local Theatre Company, Creed Repertory Theatre, Athena Project, Letter of Marquis Theatre Company, and The Anthropologists.
00:02:19
Speaker
She holds a BA in Drama from Hofstra University and an MFA in Dramaturgy from the American Repertory Theater, Moscow Art Theater Institute for Advanced Theater Training at Harvard University.
Collaboration on Anti-Racism and Impact Roles
00:02:32
Speaker
So Lindy and I met in 2020, and it was at the first LMDA digital conference.
00:02:38
Speaker
And so we got to know each other a little bit better when we both served on the anti-racism task force for LMDA. And then finally, we met in person for the first time for the conference that was in Philadelphia as you were stepping up as the president of LMDA. So I'm really excited to see a new play dramaturg leading the organization. Thank you. I'm very excited to hold that position and feel it is a great privilege for me to be a part of that organization.
00:03:05
Speaker
I would love to hear about these different roles that you play in the New Play dramaturgy world and how they intersect. What a triad of career connections being a director of fellowships, which at one of the most prestigious playwriting organizations in the country, and that offer some of the most exciting fellowships we've ever seen for playwrights.
00:03:25
Speaker
And then leading the organization that is the one serving dramaturgs in this country and beyond this country. And then currently being on the staff at the National New Play Network, which is of course well known for the Rolling World premiere and also for the New Play Exchange. Wow, superhero dramaturg. Share with us how that all intersects for you.
00:03:48
Speaker
I'd love
Importance of Lindy's Role at Playwrights Center
00:03:49
Speaker
to. Yeah. And so much of it is at the core dramaturgy. And so I definitely have tried my best to adapt all things that I do and present in the world to my dramaturgical practice. And so
00:04:04
Speaker
The Director of Fellowship Programs is a new role at the Playwrights Center, even though the Playwrights Center has housed and kept fellowship programs going for many decades. And so it's important to recognize, again, that this role comes out of an identified need for a specific person to be the steward of the playwrights who occupy these fellowship programs on any given year.
00:04:29
Speaker
and to also maintain relationships with the foundations that fund these programs, so as, again, to continually assert and identify the need that these programs satisfy in the new play world. In the same way that Impact Assessment Director, my role at the National New Play Network is, again, to identify needs to, I'd say it's dramaturging the organization.
00:04:56
Speaker
which was very cute and catchy for the first couple of months. But ultimately, folks who do not have that inside language, that inside coded language that theater practitioners employ on a daily basis, it was really difficult for folks to understand what my purpose and role was there also as a completely new role to that organization.
00:05:20
Speaker
And so some of the things that I've been noticing even in my career as it shifted is that the need for dramaturgy is always present. The ways in which we talk about that need or identify it in different organizations sometimes changes the language a little bit.
Core Elements of Dramaturgy
00:05:36
Speaker
And so it was helpful for me to go in and start really creating some very basic understanding of what dramaturgy is.
00:05:45
Speaker
I'll talk a little bit now about the National New Play Network when I walked in. These are all new play practitioners. These are all people who get the inside language. But even then, it was hard to talk about how I bring my dramaturgy to that role. And so what I did was I broke it down to three basic elements of the way I approach my work there. And that is through observation, analysis, and response.
00:06:12
Speaker
And I think so much of my dramaturgy just in general can be broken down to those three very basic elements. I think about even when I pick up a brand new play for the first time, like everything I am taking in when I read that play is all coming to me as like
00:06:30
Speaker
uh, completely organic observation, especially if I don't know the writer, if I don't know anything, it's just a new play I pick up. Uh, and then what is it doing to me? That sense of analysis, that internal assessment around like what, how is this affecting me? What is the impact of all of the things I'm taking in? And then ultimately I can't sit with them. They shouldn't just live in my head. I have to respond and like, what is that response? And how does that response, uh,
00:06:55
Speaker
Educate, how does it enlighten? How does it ask more questions about the things that I'm seeing? And I think that that was a really helpful moment for the National New Play Network in developing what this impact assessment role is, but also in getting a new group of people on board for what dramaturgy can be and the expansiveness of that practice and how fluid it can be. Because if you think about those basic elements, you bring them to most things in your life.
00:07:23
Speaker
That's how big choices are made is when you really start to analyze the things you're observing and then the choices, the response, ultimately. Like how are you going to take the information that you have and apply it to the things that you want to see or the things that you have in front of you? I say that for the National New Plain Network in a very concrete way that started with their strategic plan and their newly formed anti-racist, anti-bias plan.
00:07:52
Speaker
And the way I came into that world was as a board member of NNPN. And at the time of the pandemic, of the great shutdown, I spent a lot of my time leaning into applying my dramaturgy practice to organizations that weren't making theater because there wasn't being made in the ways we had thought it would be forever and ever, if it stopped being back.
Emerging Dramaturgy Roles
00:08:20
Speaker
And the executive director of the National New Play Network, Nan Barnett, talked to me a lot about the work I was doing with LMDA, the literary managers and dramaturgs of the Americas, as I was preparing to take on a much larger leadership role there. And so much of it was volunteering my time to strategize.
00:08:42
Speaker
and to go to the anti-racism task force meetings and to come together with groups of people and ask big questions and to talk about the things we were observing in the American theater and to get into some collective analysis around what are the things that we're seeing and how can we use this moment as leverage to make some change, to make some real change.
00:09:04
Speaker
And when she saw that, and of course, LMDA is a fully volunteer organization, when she saw the work being put in on a volunteer level, she thought, well, if we put some funding behind this and make this like a role in our organization, a staff role, what would it do? How would that catalyze more action quicker, faster, with more resources behind it? And so that's something that I was really excited to pursue.
00:09:30
Speaker
It was a grand experiment, which I think is really taking a better shape now. We started with just the bones, just the scaffolding of what this role could be. And now as I am sort of serving the final year in my staff position, what I'm hoping to do now and I'm in the planning stages of it is to pass on this role to somebody who can bring fresh eyes to it. So much of my dramaturgy practice isn't necessarily about
00:09:59
Speaker
always evolving myself in my own place in the dramaturgy new play world, but as an advocate and as someone who understand that the more dramaturgs you have, the more perspectives they will bring and insight and enlightenment to all. And so it's important for me to recognize that one person would not always be the best to hold for many years, but to rather consider multitudes.
00:10:26
Speaker
of different perspectives. And so that's something that I was really excited to start not reducing dramaturgy to these basic elements, but to start understanding that dramaturgy has basic elements that can be applied to so many varieties of things and so many roles. And I use the word dramaturg as, again, advocacy as a way of normalizing that word in the cultural vernacular.
00:10:55
Speaker
But ultimately, their impact assessment director means the same thing to me. Delicious. Fellowship programs mean the same thing to me. They're all gamma-turgy to me. And I think that this idea of collective resource sharing, collective questioning around, like, why are we doing things the way we are doing them? So many of the playwrights who exist in our fellowship programs at the Playwright Center, they do that for us every minute of every day. They identify new needs.
00:11:22
Speaker
They are different individuals from the playwrights who occupied these fellowships before. And so it's exciting for me to be able to talk directly to the folks my work impacts and say, how can we do better? What can we give you that you're not already getting everywhere else? And why aren't you getting that there either? And how can we make the field more conducive to giving you what you need? Those are sort of the big questions that I bring to all of my
00:11:51
Speaker
identities in the new play world. And when did you start at NNPN as the impact assessment coordinator? I believe that was in 2021. So yes, in this year, 23 will be my two years there.
00:12:07
Speaker
Got it. And I also hear in you talking about creating that role and also the director of fellowships also being a new role, which is really exciting. And I want to shout out to that because a lot of people like to talk about how many jobs are cut. And I think it's really important when we also talk about when people are adding roles for dramaturgs,
00:12:28
Speaker
wow, that's really cool. And also as someone who's building an organization, right? And I'm the one full-time staff. So each role is like, it's all an experiment. And like you said, it's all scaffolding, trying it out, seeing what works. And I do think as dramaturgs, we often end up being that person, doing that experimenting. This
00:12:51
Speaker
exploration that we are constantly on, the curiosity is always going to lead us as dramaturgs into being experimental and being the people that lay the scaffolding for these kinds of things. And I think that's so key. And to see the contribution you're making by spending the time on this sort of
00:13:13
Speaker
you know, all over the place, discombobulated experience and then you get to leave it with structure and systems that you have experienced yourself and that someone can come in and continue to develop further, right? Which I think is really fantastic and extremely dramaturgical of you.
00:13:31
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, I am very excited to be so deeply ingrained in this type of incubation because once I leave it, I will then get to just sort of be the observer and watch it grow, which is really exciting for me.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And for the Director of Fellowships position, you started that pretty recently, is that
Leadership Transitions at Playwrights Center
00:13:53
Speaker
correct? That's right. I have been full-time at the Playwrights Center since July of 2022, so that I'm coming up on my one-year anniversary. Wow, fantastic. And there's a lot of transitioning going on over there, is that correct?
00:14:07
Speaker
Oh, yes. The Associate Artistic Director of 16 years, Hailey Finn, has just now moved to Washington, D.C., where she is now the Artistic Director of Theater J. We're super excited for Hailey. Right. And the most recent news is that Jeremy Cohen, the current Artistic Director of the Playwrights Center, is moving on to be the Artistic Director of the Ojai Playwrights Conference. Which is an amazing conference, if you have not heard of it, listeners.
00:14:37
Speaker
Correct. Yes, please check out the Ohio Conference. It is amazing. And Jeremy is doing a really thoughtful job of transitioning because, as you had said earlier, the Playwrights Center is currently in the city of Minneapolis, but our new building, which will be up and running in the year 2025 or by the year 2025,
00:14:57
Speaker
We'll be in St. Paul. So we will have both the Twin Cities as our artistic home. And so it's very exciting to see with a new building, which we're hoping to be a real community hub for artists and new play workers and practitioners here.
00:15:13
Speaker
in St. Paul, Minnesota and with all of the incredible resources that the state of Minnesota infuses into its artistic community. We're really excited to see what that transition does in terms of its impact on our very local, hyper local community.
00:15:31
Speaker
It is so cool to see what the state of Minnesota has done. You know, you shared a little bit about that. Will you share just a little bit about how they infuse support into this community? Absolutely. Yeah. The foundations that are based in the state of Minnesota specifically for
00:15:46
Speaker
that impact the Playwrights Center is the Jerome Foundation and the McKnight Foundation. They offer incredible resources. So many of our fellowships are funded specifically by these specific foundations. And what they do is create a lot of an abundance mindset
00:16:04
Speaker
and sort of remove this idea of scarcity from the artistic community in Minnesota. And so many not-for-profits benefit from fellowships and resource sharing and funding that happens through these partnerships with foundations. And they create partnerships among them as well. So many of the folks, for example, who facilitate
00:16:27
Speaker
McKnight fellowships, we are all partners in an organization that cohorts us as the people who run the fellowship, not even the ones receiving them, but the ones who run them to talk about what are eligibility requirements these days and how are our application processes being equitable.
00:16:45
Speaker
And what are the obstacles that we see presented year after year when playwrights talk to us about their experience applying and participating in these fellowships? And it's a real learning experience and I haven't really seen it play out this way in other regions in the way that Minnesota has like a deep commitment
00:17:04
Speaker
to not just understanding how theater and the arts in general progress social justice, but also create a livable quality of life that is livable and sustainable for its artists and with an understanding that their impact on the community is just as valuable and should be maintained in the way that their lives should not be jeopardized for the sake of maintaining a career in the arts.
00:17:34
Speaker
And so that's something that I think Minnesota as a state provides a lot of resources for towards sustainability of an artistic life in the way that I have not seen many other regions really cut that level of backing towards. And even when we make big changes at the Playwrights Center, we just
00:17:51
Speaker
We just changed the duration of two of our fellowships, the Jerome and the Many Voices fellowships, from one year to two years. They will now be salaried on the Playwrights Center as part of the Playwrights Center employment and now will be eligible for
00:18:10
Speaker
health insurance benefits the way the rest of our staff members are. I mean, there's just a big, big change here. We went from $20,000 a year to $25,000 a year. So now with a two-year fellowship, that's a $50,000 award plus all of the development funds, that's $3,000 per year. I mean, there's... And so much of it is about individual needs and so much of it is about
00:18:35
Speaker
What do you need? How can we use this to better and sustain your life as an artist, to get you to that next marker of your career? Very little of it is about do this and because we paid you to do this, which a lot of funding sources will
Community and Support Structures in Theater
00:18:53
Speaker
do. They will say, these are the restrictions. This is the way in which we want to see you spend this money.
00:19:00
Speaker
Here, it is very much about what do you need and how can we support your needs. That's something that we're really excited to perpetuate and it's something that LNDA does for dramaturgs and something NMPN does for its regional member theaters. So much of what I do is sort of what we had talked to earlier about that macro to the micro, right?
00:19:22
Speaker
With the National New Play Network, they serve member theaters, which are small regional theaters nationwide. And so when you talk about what does a theater need as an organization versus what does a playwright need at the Playwright Center on fellowship? And what does a dramaturg need? If they are a freelance dramaturg, an academic dramaturg, a new play dramaturg, an agent, a literary manager, whatever
00:19:47
Speaker
title they employ, what does a dramaturgy, LNDA ask that question? And so I think that so much of my dramaturgy practice comes into that sort of like 10,000 foot view of like, what do these folks need and how do these organizations serve them differently? But how can we come together to help the ecosystem when all are sustained?
00:20:10
Speaker
That's fantastic and so exciting and also inspiring. I think artists who may be struggling where they are, Minnesota wants you.
00:20:23
Speaker
Minnesota wants you. In part because the weather's really bad, but you know what? The people there clearly understand the value of an artist and the state and the politics and the culture, and it all seems to align. That's hard to find in this country. It's just really exciting to hear about fellowships that were already amazing becoming twice as amazing.
00:20:50
Speaker
You know, the opportunity to not just get a fellowship for that kind of money, but to not be on a 1099, right? It sounds like is what you're telling me. We're talking about completely different tax bracket here. We're talking about a completely different amount of money pulled out of your fellowship each year.
00:21:09
Speaker
So to me, that's really, really intrinsic to how do we sustain and support and give artists the things they need. And a lot of that is financial support. But it's not just financial support that y'all are offering. I mean, there is so much structural support. I mean, so much structural support. So I think some people want to offer artists money or support, structural support.
00:21:34
Speaker
And to see a program just so beautifully provide all of that, it's very exciting and it's wonderful to hear you talk about it and hear you be so passionate about it. And I think something that came up for me is that one of the things that you're doing in your work is this conversation between these different types of service organizations.
00:21:56
Speaker
And I've talked about the conversation between playwright and producer and that we need to keep working on that conversation. And so that's kind of one of the things that popped up for me when you mentioned that.
00:22:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely, for me, my inspiration, right? Like my inspiration comes from that connective tissue, the ways in which we can sort of step back and see how we are all interconnected with each other. And I do think that we can learn a lot from recognizing, again, the observation of
00:22:32
Speaker
of all of the ways different disciplines or new play practitioners be a producer or playwright or event like I think dramaturgs and designers can learn a lot from each other in terms of how do we structure contracts that feel like they not only recognize the contributions that we're making to a new work but also recognize the labor.
00:22:51
Speaker
that goes into what we are contributing. For example, I really rely on sister organizations or these satellite organizations that I may not be a part of because of my positions.
00:23:08
Speaker
I am in their orbit. I like to say the Dramatists Guild, Manuel Wilson and Jordan Stovall are incredible partners to all organizations who are working in the new play world, but truly are always open to a conversation about intersectionality and are always open to
00:23:27
Speaker
hey, how do we show up for each other? And let's talk more about that. And let's start getting into rooms where we can see each other as equal partners in the evolution of the American theater. And how do we show up for each other? How are we advocates when only one of us are invited to a room and the other is not? How do we make sure that all names are spoken in that room? And I think it's really exciting for me to think about
00:23:52
Speaker
For me, it's about community, how we're not alone. And we even though very often as a dramaturg, I am the only one in the room and hopefully that becomes less and less as the culture evolves. But for now, I remember that I'm not alone in those moments where I feel isolated because
00:24:14
Speaker
Ultimately, we are all working towards those same goals and really pushing through pain points to get through to the resource that we can be or to what we can share with each other. A lot of resource sharing has been happening since the pandemic in a way that is very inspiring to me. I don't want to see it go away as deficits creep in and we start to get a
00:24:39
Speaker
a little rough around the financial edges around like, well, what can we do? How many risks can we take at this point? I am more inspired by seeing people come together and say, let's think big collectively. Yeah. And I would say too, the LMDA conference definitely is a place where I'm like, I'm not alone as a dramaturg.
Changes in LMDA Conference Format
00:25:02
Speaker
And I started going in 2017 and I haven't missed one. And I know that you have actually kicked off a sort of second conference, have you not? You want to talk a little bit about that? So, yeah, I decoupled the digital conference with the in-person conference and housed it in February. It was very well attended. We had a great turnout. We were really excited about the presenters and the attendees.
00:25:32
Speaker
We did some social breakout rooms, things like that, to just stay connected. But ultimately, it was a fully digital experience. And in June, we are going to Banff in Alberta, Canada. So that will be the fully in-person conference. It'll be about a decade since we visited Banff, LMDA, at a previous conference there. And it was such a favorite. And it would be a very much retreat style, very much in the Canadian Rockies.
00:26:00
Speaker
at the Banff Center for Arts and Creativity, which is housed in the National Park. And so just a huge shout out to the Banff Playwrights Lab, Brian Quirt and Jenna Rogers and Cody Rolon, who are all dramaturgs running that program there. And so we, again, we want to embrace and highlight and feature those organizations that
00:26:21
Speaker
employ dramaturgs and work in new plays, especially since so much of my presidency and my term has been to really bring all aspects of dramaturgy and the dramaturgs who work in academia and in new play work together to really talk about how interconnected we are.
00:26:40
Speaker
So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, that was something that is new this year. It's the decoupled conferences, I hope is a mainstay. I hope it lasts because I really found great value in sort of spreading out this idea of an annual conference across an entire calendar year.
00:26:56
Speaker
I think it's a great idea. I also like the opportunity to reconnect with the community at different times during the year. So the opportunity to be live in the summer and then digital with folks in the winter, I think it's great. And I know that, you know, leave it to dramaturgs to come up with some really impeccable ways of solving the problems that we faced, you know.
00:27:21
Speaker
I was a part of several of those presentations that were virtual, and it was just beautiful how well done it was. You know, dramaturges, let's find the thing that's going to make this possible, and exploring high and low what systems and structures are best.
00:27:39
Speaker
I really had an excellent experience with it. There was just so much content. There were just like 20 or 30 different videos people have created about all the different things they were working on, from game dramaturgy to puppet dramaturgy. You name it.
00:27:58
Speaker
talk about geeking out on theater and dramaturgy and storytelling. So yeah, I highly recommend the conference and I will be in Banff this year and very pleased and grateful that my organization supports my ability to go there. And so I would hope that more organizations will choose to support the dramaturgs that they have working with them to join us at the LMDA conference every year.
00:28:24
Speaker
It's something I would never miss, really. It's a really great way of knowing what dramaturgs are doing right now. And there's a lot going on. Just a whole lot.
00:28:39
Speaker
So what do you find are the most challenging aspects of your work? What are some of the pain points in achieving the goals that you set out? For me, it's about finding resources that meet individual needs once they have been identified.
Challenges and Flexible Resources for Artists
00:28:53
Speaker
I feel like many aspects of so much of what I do is about receiving feedback and about asking questions that are very specific and individualized about the needs that
00:29:05
Speaker
playwrights, dramaturgs, regional theaters about what those needs are. And for me, so much of it comes down to the resources that I have no control over.
00:29:18
Speaker
And that is a huge pain point for me as someone who finds themselves in rooms with folks who all are looking for the same things. For the most part, it's more money, more space, more time. And there are so many things that hinder those very basic resources for people that when they are continually asked for,
00:29:42
Speaker
It becomes the challenge of the folks in leadership to determine how to create systems that better accommodate individuals. And so, for example, you think about the ways in which organizations build their budget, and their budget needs to get approved by their boards, and their boards need time.
00:30:01
Speaker
to look over these figures and decide where are our values, right? Because budgets are moral documents. And so where are our values and how are we embodying these values in real dollars and who are those dollars going to and with what frequency and at what points do they enhance and things of that nature. And this is all organizations, right? Not just the ones I work for, but the idea that
00:30:26
Speaker
if a need is identified but it wasn't pre-approved at some point. And then so now where does the money come from for the need that has been identified after the budget has been approved? And so like the systems that are built to keep things moving in a certain pace are very often the things hindering the flexibility or fluidity that artists are often calling for when talking about the resources they need.
00:30:54
Speaker
Sometimes you won't know what a production needs until its third Rolling Worlds premiere. And so we need to be able to be, in my opinion, a little more flexible, a little more fluid, build in contingency in a way that systems haven't often allowed that to be part of the process. To talk about production timelines or even development timelines in terms of
00:31:21
Speaker
years and not weeks and for so long. What does that do when we start taking a timeline and creating expansiveness and then bringing folks along who have never existed in that type of structure and where are their
00:31:39
Speaker
individual pain points, what makes them uncomfortable about such openness. Because with any change, there will be discomfort. We don't know how to navigate it yet. We haven't even built a system that accommodates discomfort in a way that
00:31:56
Speaker
I find has created a great deal of change over the past few years when people got uncomfortable with the things that they were seeing and started vocalizing and really verbally identifying needs and making demands when they wanted to see change. And that's something that I find made a lot of people uncomfortable, but also started to build us a roadmap for where to go.
00:32:22
Speaker
And so I think that's something that I my pain points always fall in the oh, well, we haven't built the rest of this road map yet. We're still existing in an old map. But there are new there are new destinations we're trying to get to. We need to build new new paths to them. And so that's something that the collectivity of the things that I was talking about really helped because it becomes incredibly overwhelming for any one person, no matter how many
00:32:50
Speaker
how many people support them. If it is not done collectively, it can burn you out and can be very overwhelming for any one leader to take that on. And any one member of an organization, it is really a community effort to start building those pathways. And yeah, it's going to be a heartbreak when some of them flood
00:33:14
Speaker
or go out of service or need to redirect to something you weren't anticipating. And disappointment is part of this work. And just recognizing that you are not the sole creator is something that really moves me forward. Because if you're not the sole creator, you're not the only one who can destroy it.
00:33:39
Speaker
Absolutely. But I also hear you saying, we need all hands on deck, right? We need all hands on deck. We need everybody caring about this and caring about how we make these changes and sustain and provide for our community what they are asking for, right? And I do think it's going to hurt sometimes, right? But I think that I feel like as a dramaturg, I'm a lot more comfortable with that.
00:34:08
Speaker
And I think that's because we're like, well, we're going to go on a journey with this play, right? And we don't know where that journey is. And we don't know what's going to happen. And we don't even know where this play is going to be. You know, this isn't necessarily something that's been promised to production, right? I mean, we don't know what's going to happen. And we dive into that unknown and we trust it, right? Because it's got to be enjoying each moment of that process.
00:34:34
Speaker
And so I think this is a really great way of looking at it too. And I've talked a lot about adaptability in new play development. And I thought it was really smart when you suggested the idea of having contingency plans and having extra money set aside for things that become needed, rather than, you know, stretching the budget so thin that there's nothing that can be done. And I often advocate for more time.
00:34:59
Speaker
I'm always like, please, can we have more time? Because processing and creativity are a time thing, right? It's like, you know, if something happens too fast, do we even know what are the best decisions to be made, right? So I think, too, we end up, that scarcity model makes us have to move so quickly. Everything is last minute. And that's just, to me, new play development just does not function best under that model.
00:35:27
Speaker
It really means like, well, here's the template, we can start here and then it has to just be very, very adaptable. Bringing in choreographers at the last minute when you aren't expecting to have to do that, we have that coming up for one of our festivals. The playwrights, we had some virtual rehearsals scheduled and they really all wanted to be live.
00:35:51
Speaker
And so we pivoted and made sure they were all live. And the festival I'm talking about is the one that Working Title Playwrights and Theatrical Outfit partnered to produce, and it's our unexpected play festival. And it's a very local, all Working Title members.
00:36:09
Speaker
for a producer to jump on board with me and be willing to be adaptable and flexible, you know, is something they have to be intentional and decide to do. So I love you talking about like, how can we be more flexible? How can we make more time? And how can we
00:36:24
Speaker
respond to the needs that are being requested. And I think people often think of feedback as something they need to be defensive about. And I consider feedback a gift, you know, and that if someone is giving you feedback, it's because they think that you're hearing it. They think that you are listening. And that is such a privilege and a gift.
00:36:41
Speaker
I completely agree with that and which is why I seek it out, which is why I'm constantly asking folks to share their feedback with me because I am in a position that can direct it to the place where it can grow and can be action and change in a way that if it just sits inside of you, then where's the response?
00:37:01
Speaker
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And you know, my next question for you is going to be what a new play artists need from the American theater. But I kind of feel like you answered it. Is there anything you want to expand on there? I think something that you just said sparked for me. They need people to listen.
00:37:17
Speaker
They need people to take them seriously, to trust that they have already done the identifying of what their needs are. And when they are articulating them to you, be responsive. They need more responsive producers. They need more responsive development houses. And they need more resources that are reliable. The reason the Playwrights Center
00:37:43
Speaker
is the way it is, is because of the resources that keep it that way. I mean, I think about the ones that don't exist anymore, right? The LARC was a huge high freak for the display development world. Absolutely. It's a huge high freak and it's because they too tried to be as responsive and give and give and give, but unfortunately, there wasn't that resource infusion that was reciprocating.
00:38:11
Speaker
in the way that, again, regionally, there are separate resources that keep artists sustained. And I would hope that on a much larger government-sustaining level, there could be a sense of value infused into those ecosystems, into those cultures that would preserve those types of spaces. And I think that's really what artists need. They need space. They need time.
00:38:38
Speaker
They need money and they need folks around to advocate for them, to listen and to respond and to trust them. And I hope that those spaces become more abundant and less scarce as we evolve the American theater.
00:38:55
Speaker
Absolutely.
Building Community and Sharing Resources
00:38:56
Speaker
And sometimes I think some of that is about sharing space, right? And I would just love to see more producers take on that kind of community building role. I really would. And to say this space, it's empty a lot of the time, you know, come fill it up with artists, you know, fill it up with the energy of creativity and the excitement and the passion behind this work. So I just love that and thank you for that.
00:39:21
Speaker
And then do you have any new play references or resources you would like to share with our listeners? Anything that you have found really useful as a dramaturg or just throughout your work over the years?
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah. And so many of them just keep coming up. I would say that the resources, even thinking back, have all been things that have evolved. So, for example, the LMDA website houses a number of resources, including a way in which you can make yourself more visible, which I think is an incredible resource for dramaturgs to, again, get their work seen and be hired.
00:40:00
Speaker
So there's a find a dramaturg feature on LND's website, which is an incredible resource. If you are a member, there's also employment guidelines, sample contracts. There's a market rate calculator that allows you to itemize your skills in a way that makes invoicing a lot easier and negotiations in terms of your contracts for other work really easy. I would say read the work of dramaturgs who have put out
00:40:29
Speaker
publications. Mark Bly, the founder of LMDA, has put out a number of publications that if you would really just need to search his name, he's been a huge resource to not just the dramaturgy community, but the American theater overall.
00:40:46
Speaker
Anne Catanio's new book, The Art of Dramaturgy. I would also uplift that. Jane Barnett's Adaptaturgy. Again, there's just so many academic dramaturgs doing incredible work to expand understanding of how dramaturgical practices live. I would say that Selfishly the Playwright Center puts out a podcast also.
00:41:10
Speaker
theater begins here and they do an incredible job of recognizing that theater begins in many places. And so it was exciting for me to hear not just from playwrights but also literary agents and other practitioners. It's always for me more value to
00:41:33
Speaker
keep training and that's sort of my little motto is the only way to stay fit is to keep training and so anytime there is a new resource that comes out I'm sort of the first one in line to say like oh what did this dramaturg write about or oh there's a new workshop happening oh a seminar you know
00:41:48
Speaker
Facilitator training. I've been facilitating for many years. I'll still go to those trainings because I find such benefit in just observing how other folks do it and what they're doing differently. And I always sort of add something to my own toolkit. The Dramatrix toolkit is also on the LMDA website.
00:42:07
Speaker
And then for you playwrights, for those of you who are new play advocates, the New Play Exchange has been an incredible resource for me.
Artistic Themes and Ensemble Theater Influence
00:42:15
Speaker
And I will talk a little bit just now about the way the key words affected me in a very specific way. So in the pandemic, I was furloughed from an institutional position and I just felt like there was so much happening with the civil unrest of the United States and abroad that I wondered how I as the dramaturg
00:42:34
Speaker
As just a new play advocate could do my part and and so I went on the new play exchange and I I just typed in black lives matter and Hundreds of plays came up and I just sat there for days and I just read them because I thought to myself like I
00:42:52
Speaker
You know, when the doors open back up, someone's going to ask me. Someone's going to ask us dramaturge to talk about the plays that were written about this movement, and we should be able to speak intelligently about what's happening.
00:43:07
Speaker
I very often, and I will say the same thing about many other ways in which we lean into the causes that empower us to show up in this world as advocates. And those are the things that, those are the tools that I have found really useful in just maintaining a sense of connectedness to the world. Because I find that artists and playwrights specifically will show us what this world means, what this world already is.
00:43:36
Speaker
especially for folks who are nothing like us, who are not like me specifically, who are not anywhere in my world or my realm. And I now get to experience what this artistic interpretation of that life is. And that's something that I find an incredible privilege. And I have a deep appreciation for tools like the New Play Exchange for just, again, giving empowerment in a very powerless moment.
00:44:03
Speaker
That was really exciting for me. Those are my deep inspirations, for sure. It's so true. I mean, the magic of new play development is getting to be so present with what is happening in the world in your art form, right? And to sit in a room with people that are all different from you, coming from all different backgrounds, and to have the privilege of learning deeply about their experience.
00:44:31
Speaker
I mean, absolutely, I feel it's such a gift, and it really is what keeps me coming back. I can resonate with work that's been written at any time period, but when it really comes to it, I am most interested in the now.
00:44:49
Speaker
And these plays are absolutely a marker of the moment and of the emotional toil of that moment. I love that. Thank you for that story because I think people don't always understand how to
00:45:07
Speaker
see a tool like in PX that way. And that it is something that shows us this moment every day. And for those who are unfamiliar, there are thousands of new plays, just thousands and thousands of new plays from thousands of playwrights. If you're a dramaturg, you can create a profile. If you're an organization, you can create a profile. So there's visibility across the board and there's an opportunity to connect
00:45:34
Speaker
throughout the entire application. It's really fantastic. So thank you for bringing that up. So do you have any theaters or organizations that you would like to lift up that have maybe impacted you or influenced your work?
00:45:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I'll try to stick to the ones I haven't already shouted out. But yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit about the thing that shaped me the most was working in ensemble theaters. And so there is a service organization that serves
00:46:08
Speaker
all the ones that I know of, but I'm sure many others. It's called the Network of Ensemble Theaters, or NET. It's an incredible organization that really also provides great resources to folks in collaboration and who embody ensemble methodology, a way to bring ensemble culture, which to me has never lived in a linear hierarchy, which is very much how I
00:46:34
Speaker
was brought into dramaturgy was like you are this type of person on this run of the ladder and these are the things that you do. And I have to say that working as a dramaturg with ensembles such as Letter of Mark Theatre Company and the Anthropologists, these are New York based ensemble companies where I started after grad school and it was a
00:46:57
Speaker
really incredible way for me to start thinking expansively about my dramaturgy practice because they were encouraging me to get away from the table, to get away from my PowerPoint presentation and my packets and to take my shoes off and walk around with the actors and look at them and be with them in space and build moments that maybe didn't have any text.
00:47:22
Speaker
in them to start. And now they are something that can live in a work that is published later. And so I think that there's something to that. There's something to permission being granted in interdisciplinary work where often there were very strict parameters on how you show up in a room and
00:47:42
Speaker
being allowed to play and I found that that was the thing that built the most trust between me and my collaborators was this sense of we are all creating something together. It's not you do this bit and you do this bit, it's all bits.
00:48:01
Speaker
make the bigger whole. And that was something that was very, very influential for me. And so I have to say that ensemble theater is something that has deeply impacted me as a person, but also has created a new movement of theater making that has withheld this test of time. I have found that devising in ensemble work
00:48:26
Speaker
has become so much more mainstream than at least when I started practicing with these ensembles. And I think that is a huge testament to the benefit of that work, of that collective creation, and just the idea of dissolving linear hierarchies to get to that
00:48:44
Speaker
core collaborative moment I think has been a huge gift to theater making. I've seen it infused in so many other more traditional spaces and it creates an incredibly brave space in what is maybe traditionally not seen that way.
00:49:02
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, just the trust-building exercises that you experience as an ensemble member, right? If you're an actor, you've probably done them in acting class. But if you aren't an actor, you may have never done any of those things, right? And, you know, actors get to have all the fun, right? So why should we let them do it all by themselves? It's like...
00:49:22
Speaker
I love that. And I say the same thing about improv, for example. I have taken so many in graduate school and in undergrad, I took so many public speaking courses, but nothing really made me a public speaker like taking improv classes and participating with ensembles in improvisations because that was something that I found really created a sense of ease for me to just
00:49:48
Speaker
be in conversation with someone not knowing what the next part of this conversation would lead to. And that, to me, was a real gift. And I encourage many other folks, again, to just think expansively. It's not just go to school and learn the technique. There are so many other ways to train and to evolve your craft.
00:50:08
Speaker
I love that. And I think too, when writers are looking for community, y'all, this is where you find it. You need to get involved with some ensembles, right? What does device theater look like and how can it make you a better playwright?
00:50:24
Speaker
I mean, because once you leave that room where you're writing your play by yourself, you're going to have to collaborate with directors, with dramaturgs, with producers, with actors, with managing directors and on. So getting comfortable with that.
00:50:41
Speaker
you're jumping into these spaces that you may not actually have a lot of preparation for. Sometimes I think playwrights think, oh, it's just the playwriting. That's the work. And I'm like, there's so much more, you know, once you jump into that collaborative space and doing work like ensemble and devising work really gives you the tools that you need.
Being Present in Art and Avoiding Disappointment
00:51:01
Speaker
I totally agree. And then what would be your best advice for new play artists? That's a great question. I love that question because it's something I try to instill in myself all the time. So if I can follow my own advice, I certainly would love to. But my advice always is openness.
00:51:22
Speaker
is to never really have a prescribed notion of what any one thing should or will be because that has always been my recipe for deep disappointment and heartbreak. And I have found the most success
00:51:38
Speaker
in my career, in my dramaturgy practice, in my collaborations, when I don't walk in going, this is how today will be, this is what will happen, this is how it will end and begin, and this is what it will look like and feel like. And rather, when I go in going, I wonder, I wonder what today will be, I wonder how this day will look or what I will feel by the end of it.
00:52:04
Speaker
That sense of being open and just walking through with wonder as opposed to prescribing or determining ahead of time what the thing will be, I have found, and I resist it, part of my own liberation practice is this sense that prescription coming up in my head, I'll make a lot of lists and I'll say, okay, this thing's gonna come before this thing and then I'm gonna do it in this order and it's gonna end at this time.
00:52:35
Speaker
And very often that leads to so much stress and disappointment and overwhelmingly and feeling of discouragement or like I didn't do it well enough. And all of that came from my own mind. And I feel like if folks got out of their own mind and were more present in the world in front of them,
00:52:59
Speaker
That has been my advice not just to myself but to all artists because I feel like presence is the thing that puts your receptors into that open mode and then you stop sort of prescribing and you start receiving what's around you. So that's definitely the advice that I try to live by.
00:53:19
Speaker
That is exceptional advice. I think especially when we think about what it takes to be present and that when we are constantly working and constantly on the grind, it is really hard to be present. And so artists often live in this space of being in a grind and struggle with the presence.
00:53:44
Speaker
I really encourage artists to appreciate every moment because they're not going to be able to get that back. It's a moment of opportunity to connect with fellow artists. It's a moment to learn. It's a moment to learn something about yourself.
00:54:02
Speaker
And if you're not present in that moment, fully appreciating and honoring those around you is also really difficult to do, right? So if you're not present, how much are you going to miss?
00:54:16
Speaker
about those around you and potentially what loss might there be that you never knew even occurred, right? I tend to be, you know, I just go, go, go, work, work, work. And I think sometimes when I'm in a social situation and I feel awkward, my answer is to get to work.
00:54:38
Speaker
And I think a lot of us do that, you know? And I have found the more I can sit back and be like, you know what, this is a moment and I can't have it again. Let me sit in this and really enjoy this. And man, the whole vibe changes for me. And I am just so grateful to be in that space with whoever I'm in that space with, you know? It's a practice, but I find that every time I get it, it's something that I appreciate.
00:55:08
Speaker
when it happens. Absolutely. I think too as an artist, it's like the healthiest way to go about it. We're always going to be able to find problems in such a scarcity model that we live in, but how can we find the joy and the ecstasy and presence too? Yeah. Thank you for that. Then where can listeners connect with you and keep up with your work?
Connecting with Lindy and Podcast Conclusion
00:55:36
Speaker
I'm definitely on the Find a Dramaturg feature on Ellen's website. You can find me there. I'm on most sort of the basic social media channels, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I don't have a website, but I exist on the websites of NNPN and PWC, National Nuclear Network and Playwrights Center, as well as Literary Managers and Drama Services of the Americas.
00:56:03
Speaker
So thank you so much for joining us, Lindy. This has been such a great conversation and I feel really honored to get to hear more about your work and what you believe in and your passion. And I really can't wait for the conference and dance.
00:56:20
Speaker
Oh, thank you, Amber. Yeah, I always love these conversations and it has been an incredible honor to share this space with you today. Thank you so much for inviting me and I am really looking forward to sharing space in person with you in Canada in the summer. Yay. Well, thank you so much listeners. I am your host, Amber Bradshaw, and I will chat with you next time.
00:56:44
Speaker
Thank you listeners for tuning in to Table Work, how new plays get made with Amber Bradshaw. This podcast was brought to you by Working Title Playwrights. If you like what you've heard today, support this podcast and all our initiatives by leaving us a review, following us, and or consider making a tax-deductible donation to Working Title Playwrights at www.workingtitelplaywrights.com.