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Approaching Dramaturgy From A Queer Lens with Fig LeFevre
108 Plays1 year ago
In this episode I talk with Fig LeFevre, a dramaturg, educator, playwright, drag artist and fellow queer! We discuss the nature of Queer, it's definition, how we apply it to our work and finally, how it connects to everything we do. We discuss intimacy coordination and consent, dive deep into working with actors and their unique and invaluable contribution and speak in detail about Theatre of the Oppressed Forum Theatre, a class that Fig recently taught for the WTP community. Considering the nature of queer, we also discussed the idea of succession, ageism and making way for the next generation. Tune in folks to hear about approaching dramaturgy from a queer lens!
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Transcript
Introduction to New Play Dramaturgy
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made. My name is Amber Bradshaw, and I am a New Play Dramaturg arts administrator and educator. On this podcast, we ask some questions. What is New Play Dramaturgy and how do we do it? What do artists want to see in the future of the American theater? And where are we failing in the creative process and how can we solve these concerns?
Working Title Playwrights and Queer Canon Discussion
00:00:31
Speaker
This podcast is brought to you by Working Title Playwrights, a new play incubator and service organization based in Atlanta, Georgia, in which I serve as the managing artistic director. For more about WTP and me, check out WorkingTitlePlaywrights.com. I discovered for myself that I don't believe a queer canon can exist because when we canonize it, when we create a structure around it saying that this
00:00:59
Speaker
is the queer theater, then that becomes the new structure and that's no longer the queer theater. So for me, all canonizing projects around queer theater, like books that are collections of queer plays or syllabi that are collections of queer theater, those are all snapshots of what is queer in the moment that was created.
Guest Introduction: Fig LaFever
00:01:22
Speaker
But that can't always permanently be queer
00:01:30
Speaker
So my guest today is Fig LaFever. Fig is currently serving as the Managing Director of the Performance Project, a lecturer at the University of Massachusetts Department of Theater, and as the Co-VP of Freelance for the Literary Managers and Dramaturgs of the Americas.
00:01:48
Speaker
They have an MFA in Dramaturgy and a graduate certificate in Advanced Feminist Studies from UMass Amherst. Before graduate school, they developed a small nonprofit organization focused on the wellness of transgender individuals through peer support groups, public education and workshops, and then developed and facilitated a trans applied theater troupe for three years using techniques such as theater of the oppressed, playback theater and undesirable elements.
00:02:15
Speaker
Fig and I met through dramaturg Dr. Angela Farshiller, who was actually interviewed on episode two of this podcast. When I reached out to her to connect with potential artists to teach for the working title playwright's new play Dramaturgy Intensive, she overwhelmingly suggested I connect with Fig.
00:02:35
Speaker
She had just worked on the Methuen book of trans plays with you. Is that correct? Yeah. So fast forward to months later and you've taught your very own play for the new play dramaturgy intensive and you brought in your own new tool that you created. And of course the students have really
00:02:55
Speaker
enjoyed what they learned in that class. And just this week, you have flown in to teach an Augusto Boal Forum Theater or also known as Theater of the Oppressed Workshop for the Working Title Playwrights community.
Role of a New Play Dramaturg
00:03:07
Speaker
So it has been a really fun weekend learning from you and getting to know you better. So glad to have you. Glad to be here. Let's talk about your identity as a new play dramaturg and what new play dramaturgy means to you.
00:03:26
Speaker
think the first thing that comes to mind is that a new play dramaturg is a shape shifter. And for me, I know that doesn't demystify so much, but for me, that means that it's really dependent on the project, how I choose to enter a space and how I choose to interact with a playwright. So for example, if we're really early in a phase with a playwright who feels like they want someone who will
00:03:55
Speaker
offer questions and offer challenges, then I become that person for the playwright. But if I'm in a position where, you know, a playwright is really just focused on big picture, trying to see the forest for the trees, then I become more of an audience representative for them and offering that perspective. So sometimes it's very close and sometimes I distance.
00:04:20
Speaker
Sometimes it's more aggressive or in your face, asking questions and making comments. And sometimes it's taking a step back and being gentle and careful and slow with them. But it's really about establishing a relationship with the playwright and figuring out what the playwright is trying to achieve with the project and then how I can best serve that.
00:04:45
Speaker
I love that. That's extremely clear. And as usual, starts with a human component, right? Everything starts with a human for me. Exactly. Exactly. So what are your favorite tools that you offer playwrights when you're working with them?
Dramaturgical Tools and Techniques
00:05:01
Speaker
I like to do a lot of different kind of trackings of patterns. And I find it really useful to highlight things that playwrights might not notice about their own work.
00:05:11
Speaker
So if there are words or phrases or rhetorical devices or certain metaphors that they come back to, I think making clear to a playwright the things that they are already doing can help them either lean into that or move away from that and offer some variety. So really it just starts with what they have, showing a playwright what they have.
00:05:35
Speaker
I love it. And I remember, of course, you presented this. So looking at like how many times a word has been said, which was a fun one. Yeah. And if it changes context, like do you always have in the stage directions this sound come up and the characters are always talking about home when that sound comes up? Then there's a relationship I need to establish between those two linked patterns.
00:05:59
Speaker
Hmm. I love that. That also is like a, it's like a textural. It's like a quilt of connections. Yes. Right. And I remember when you were showing it to us, it looked like little sticky notes. Yes. But it was a digital document, right? I use Jamboard, a Google Jamboard to make mine, but I used to do them in person with sticky notes. And when I teach it in class,
00:06:22
Speaker
I have each of the students do a different thing with their tracking and they'll each use a different color of sticky notes and then we'll make the whole play across the wall and you'll get to see like the blue sticky note represents every time the mom had a fight or something and the red sticky note is something else and then you'll get to see the patterns across the whole wall and notice that act three has so much more of the rage stuff and
00:06:48
Speaker
one has so many more of the family things. And that's where you start to really see what you have, I think when you lay it out. That is so cool. My mind is just racing with that, you know, like, you can even use that in your own life to track your own patterns. Yeah. Right. As we dramaturgs love to do, right?
00:07:09
Speaker
Right on, so a very cool tracking system.
Queerness in Theater: Three Definitions
00:07:11
Speaker
So let's talk a little bit about the complicated nature of queer and that every time we try to pin it down, it never seems to allow it, right?
00:07:25
Speaker
So, you know, and I've talked a little bit about queering dramaturgy on this podcast. And, you know, and I'll talk more about what I've decided around that. But I think that's that's part of this conversation as well. If we're queering dramaturgy, what does that mean? And don't we need to know what queer means first? Right. And I know you teach a queer theater course and you have three definitions of queer that you have Sir Tyler low for.
00:07:53
Speaker
So please share those definitions with us. Absolutely. Yeah. So when I started teaching queer theater, I thought, you know, I can't really teach about queer theater until I give the students somewhere to start with queerness, this unwrap aroundable idea. So I started with three different definitions that felt like they came at a perspective of queerness that we could see in place. So the first one is Jill Dolan was a theater scholar.
00:08:21
Speaker
who says that queerness exists only in opposition to things that are heteronormative, cisnormative, rigid, traditional forms. So the queerness is always pushing back. And so in that way, those kinds of productions or those kinds of plays that you're looking at, queerness is not its own thing, it only exists in the resistance. And then there's Sarah Ahmed, who is a queer theory scholar and
00:08:49
Speaker
a gender scholar, and what she writes about is this experience of going home for Thanksgiving and noticing that by being queer in a space full of her very heteronormative family, it made the heteronormative structures even more apparent. So she thinks of queerness as the thing that makes the container visible, the thing that makes you more able to see those invisible structures. And then the third one that I love to use is Jose Munoz, who's also a queer
00:09:20
Speaker
queer scholar he wrote about queerness as the horizon and it's always in the reaching that queerness exists because once the horizon reaches us once we are at that point it is no longer weird that's now the established thing that's not a real thing that the tradition that we're following so the queerness is always the horizon it's always in the distance it's always in the next in the reaching in the
00:09:48
Speaker
in the finding and the digging and the deeper. So I like to use those three just as a starting point. I love that. I love the idea of queerness as a horizon. And it definitely gets to the complication I find in calling something a queering dramaturgy or queer theater even, right? Like, what does that even mean if it's always reaching to something else, if it's not actually a thing, but like,
00:10:16
Speaker
a direction. Right. And I think I think I love that about it. And I don't want to pin it down. And it's always why queer has been the way I've identified even before it was something that was common. And so I also know that you wrote an essay on the queer canon. Would you share with us, please, what you what you wrote about in that essay?
00:10:43
Speaker
Sure, absolutely. So I recently had an essay published in a text called Trebling Traditions, Canonicity, Theater, and Performance in the U.S., and it was edited by Lindsay Mantoin, Matthew Moore, and Angela Farshiller. So shout out to Angela. And in the essay, I was asked to consider the idea of queer or trans canon, a theatrical canon, and throughout
00:11:11
Speaker
However long the essay is, basically I discovered for myself that I don't believe a queer canon can exist because when we canonize it, when we create a structure around it saying that this is the queer theater, then that becomes the new structure and that's no longer the queer theater. So for me, all canonizing projects around queer theater, like books that are collections of queer plays or
00:11:40
Speaker
syllabi, their collections of queer theater. Those are all snapshots of what is queer in the moment that was created, but that can't always permanently be queer. Nothing is like permanent for queer needs. Yeah, I think that's great. That resonates for me as well. Like, I mean, the idea of a canon period for me is super problematic, you know? So as someone who doesn't really believe in
00:12:09
Speaker
awards or best, right? Like number one, I just don't believe in that. I think everyone has so much beauty to offer. And it's not about, you know, best this and first that, right? So I think that also to me is just
00:12:30
Speaker
inevitably not queer either to say this one, but not that one. It's like who gets to decide that, right? So yeah, I think it's a much bigger question, but we can really apply it to our work in dramaturgy. And I feel like also we can apply that to our work in creativity, in that thinking we're gonna hold on to whatever lights the match for the artist.
00:12:58
Speaker
It's just crazy. And I think that's not possible. And that's part of why we as dramaturgs are always like, it's just the next thing that comes and we can't plan it. Right. You know, because you can't plan, you can't really plan creativity, right? Right. You have
Queer Lens in Dramaturgy
00:13:14
Speaker
to just like acting, it's acting and reacting. You have to react to the kinds of creative things that come up in the moment. If you create
00:13:23
Speaker
a plan for a rehearsal process or a development process in advance, and you're not willing to change that, then you're forestalling any potential amazing developments that come out or surprises that come out. And I think that's the most exciting part of development is things that surprise you. So I think we need to be willing to be flexible, both as dramaturgs and as producers of these development workshops.
00:13:50
Speaker
Mm hmm. Sometimes I think that's why I connect queer to my dramaturgical process, you know, is that I feel like the way I approach the world in that with that queer lens is a similar way that I approach dramaturgy and that I just don't allow I don't worry about planning. You know, I trust the process. I follow the intuition. And, you know, it wasn't until I came out that I really felt like I had a place I made a place for myself.
00:14:20
Speaker
or I even began to get myself, right? And so I think that the centering of that is just really interesting and the way it comes together. Yeah. I feel like I use that principle as a dramaturg and as a professor. Like it's, for me, I do a lot of prep and I do actually probably way more prep than I think anyone does or is necessary. I do way too much prep, but then I come into a room and I feel the
00:14:49
Speaker
And I let myself let go of things that I maybe thought were interesting or exciting, but are not what's interesting in the room. What's not like coming together with the other people in the space that are excited about something else. I'm just going to steward a process that follows that flow. Like I don't want to stick to my preparation if it's going to stop them from exploring.
00:15:16
Speaker
I also feel like that speaks to your extensive experience doing drag and creating drag shows, right? How do you feel like creating a drag, like how has the drag informed your dramaturgical work? I think that drag as an art itself is dramaturging gender in a really exciting way that makes you
00:15:45
Speaker
unpack things you maybe never thought about about yourself, assumptions you have about your own life and identity. But it also makes you relate to the audience in any way. Drag is very interactive. You have to learn a lot about consent with the audience and how interacting with the audience changes the space. Drag also comes from this history and this makeshift space where we are creating a place out of what was just an empty room.
00:16:12
Speaker
And placemaking is really critical to the drag world. So I think that's also critical to being a queer dramaturgist, thinking about placemaking, thinking about wherever we set up this rehearsal should still feel like the same place, our place. And I really appreciated that about being with queer now, the truth that I was working with. And I also feel like what was useful and queer about that
00:16:40
Speaker
particular troop was our commitment to each other and to like our long-term collaboration. And even if we weren't particularly sure if someone was like really committed in a moment to the project or to that specific role in that drag show, we were committed to keeping each other together and keeping each other in that circle in that community so that we could find our way back to each other when we were in a better space of growth and development
00:17:09
Speaker
and sharing and I think having long-term relationships with artists is necessary and critical to our artistic survival. So I think that that kind of ethics from the drag troupe really has played into my sense of staying connected with playwrights that maybe aren't working or haven't written a new thing in three or four years. I still want to be a part of their journey and maybe they're ready to come back five years from now and that'll still be beautiful.
00:17:39
Speaker
and maybe they won't come back to playwriting, and that's fine too, but I want to be able to stay part of that connection. Yeah, I hear that, and I hear a lot of it is about community, which we do talk about a lot in this podcast, and the idea of building community around your work is essential to the work, right? And I think a lot of people
00:18:06
Speaker
look to master's programs and fellowships and residencies for this kind of community. But I feel like as a queer, I understand that that can happen anywhere, you know? And there's something so beautiful about the idea of
00:18:26
Speaker
no matter where you are making it home. And that home being the place where you're in community with these artists. And there's something really beautiful about that. And to me, I think when you have something that you can connect and resonate with each other on like right away, it makes that easier, but it still doesn't
00:18:48
Speaker
It's not all you need. You know, I think some people think it is, but you need the relationship. You need the time and the effort and the, you got to put in the work, right? Right. There's so much care work. There's so much care work that goes into dramaturgy, into playmaking, into teaching. It's a lot of care work. Right. I mean, I feel like the Boal work that you taught us this weekend was so much of it is care work. Absolutely. You know,
00:19:19
Speaker
feel like it would be both unsafe and disrespectful to go into a community to uncover and work through a traumatic experience without also giving them tools to help them feel okay about working through that and help them feel like they know how to take care of themselves afterwards, after you leave. I don't want to do this work irresponsibly.
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah. It also makes me think like, you know, we talk about intimacy coordinators and stuff like that, but like, what would, what would every rehearsal process look like if we incorporated just 20% of the kind of practice that we see in a forum theater and theater of the oppressed, you know? I think there's so much that forum theater especially can
00:20:05
Speaker
apply to new play development and especially in actor training. I think a lot of actors that I work with that aren't used to new play development don't know how to have a voice in that space. And training in forum theater or theater through press helps everyone feel more empowered with their own voice and feeling like an expert in their own
Actor Input in Play Development
00:20:26
Speaker
experience. And it's much easier for actors that have that kind of training to come in and say, you know, as I'm embodying this character, these are some questions that are coming up for me.
00:20:35
Speaker
And that's so helpful in a room. I really love when actors are able to have questions and confusions and concerns and whatever they are in nuclear development. Because if they're just receiving the text, I can't tell if it's land.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And actors who really get involved with the process are just so magical. Yes. Coming from inside the character. Yes. And sharing with us things that we could not possibly know. Right. It's really cool. Yeah. I always like to start every process reminding the actors that we really want to hear what they have to say. Yes. And like when you're writing,
00:21:18
Speaker
a character, you want them to be as three-dimensional as possible. But they don't always start out three-dimensional, but all humans are three-dimensional. So when you get a human being playing a character that may be not quite there, that human being will notice what's missing from them. They will notice if they are not feeling like a fully developed person playing this role, because there will be that distance between their own humanity and the humanity of
00:21:47
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's so helpful. I, I never I've never really understood why anybody thought actors were absolute geniuses. I'm like, really, you think they're flighty? I think they're just working through a lot of stuff. There's a lot happening here. There's a lot of work. You know, being emotional and diving in and and working with with what you have and
00:22:16
Speaker
trusting you're going to be okay and learning the tools to take care of yourself and going through those processes. I mean, you need to give actors more credit. I mean, it's one of the reasons I don't act is because I feel like it's really difficult for me to do those things. And then I'm better when I am in service to actors rather than being the actor. Absolutely. And I honestly think that's why all dramaturgs, but especially when you play dramaturgs, should train
00:22:43
Speaker
in some form of acting so they have some experience of what it's like to be in that position. Because I feel like you will have a stronger sense of both what is working textually and how to communicate text needs with actors if you've done it. If you don't know what it feels like to be in the position of acting, it's hard to communicate with actors. Snaps to all that. I completely agree. I completely agree. I think I've said
00:23:11
Speaker
You should take acting classes so that you know how you present and you can speak publicly and be in leadership. But I think this is just as important. It's like, what is this tool and what is it like and how do we do it and what are these methods and what might they be bringing to the table? Yeah, absolutely. I think knowing all of the things.
00:23:32
Speaker
Dramaturgs have to do that too, just like directors. Yes. Try all things. Yes. Absolutely. And you're probably gonna like all of them because you're a dramaturg. I know. It's because of the drag troupe that I started learning sound design and I love sound now. Oh, it's so fun. And I've never done that before. That's incredible.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think the conversation about actors makes me think about going back to forum theater and the spec actor, which is of course the spectator becoming a part of the show, right? And I feel like it would be best for us to always think of audience members as spec actors. Right.
00:24:18
Speaker
as opposed to people sitting in seats that are separate from this experience. Especially if you're an actor, you know that they have so much power, the audience, right? And that their energy and what they laugh at, what they don't laugh at and how they come into the space. I mean, everything plays a part, you know, every single night is different. So if we're creating work and we're not thinking about the audience as a collaborator,
00:24:48
Speaker
in that way. Right. Like, what does it mean for what we're creating? Can you talk a little bit about the spec doctor and how they take part in in a performance?
Forum Theater and Spec Actor Role
00:25:00
Speaker
Sure. So in forum theater, a play is presented by a community about a certain issue of oppression where a need was not met. And after the first time we show that scene to an audience, we talk to the audience about
00:25:18
Speaker
what other possible ways the protagonist in the scene could approach their oppressor or whoever the antagonist is to try to get their need met. And it's a brainstorming session. It's an active brainstorming session. And then after we have this conversation where we come up with all these ideas, we let them try it. We have actual audience members step in
00:25:42
Speaker
and be the protagonist and say, if I encountered this position in my life, if I encountered this exact kind of, or a similar kind of microaggression or interpersonal conflict, now I'm going to try a couple of different methods to work myself through that and still have my needs met. So it's what Augusta Wall calls rehearsal for the revolution. And it means that we are practicing things that we want to try in the real world.
00:26:12
Speaker
in a safer container. So it's rehearsing things that we want to get into our muscle memory so that when we're out in the spaces of our real lives, if those kinds of oppressions occur, we already have practiced responses. We're not trying to think on our feet in a moment of fear or trauma. We already have brainstormed several ideas of ways we might approach that situation.
00:26:38
Speaker
Love that so much. Thank you for such a concise description of that. And this is, you know, for me, this is the kind of theater I find the most exciting, you know, is it everybody being a part in a really, really practical way, honestly, right? And very much conflict resolution, right? Right. Yeah.
00:27:01
Speaker
Which just occurred to me just now when you were saying that. I was like, oh, it's very conflict resolution. Yes. Yeah. And so for those who are interested in learning more about this, there's plenty of resources out there. And the website is pedagogy and theater of the oppressed, Inc., right? To check out more about that work, which is
00:27:26
Speaker
Really powerful work. It's had a huge impact on this field and and on pedagogy, right? Absolutely. Really? So what do you as a new play dramaturg need from the American theater?
Embracing New Ideas in American Theater
00:27:42
Speaker
I Need it to leave me alone. I Need it to lower its expectations of my students. I need it to not continue to
00:27:54
Speaker
haze new theater makers. I needed to be open to the new theater makers telling us that we're doing it wrong. I needed to die out and make way for something different. I think, and maybe this is just the way humans work, but I think the whole point of having next generations is that they're supposed to be smarter than us and better than us. And I think we need to let
00:28:22
Speaker
be smarter than us and better than us. I think we need to let them have new ideas and maybe we need to take a step back. I love that. The first thing you said, it was, leave me alone. Leave me alone. Tell me more about that. Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of pressure from particularly things like pipelines of regional theater.
00:28:50
Speaker
There's a lot of pressure for certain plays to go to certain spaces or for certain projects to be on comparison with this regional theater. And I don't think that's necessary or useful. I don't think we always need to be in comparison with other theater companies. I think we can do our own thing and there's room for everything. I don't think you need to say, oh, but I saw this play at this company that had more money and it was better.
00:29:18
Speaker
I don't think there's better or worse or any of that is useful. Even I think what's useful is variety. And I think what's useful is all of us having the opportunity to see plays in our area about things that are about our community. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's going back to.
00:29:38
Speaker
The about us, for us, by us, near us, you know, this is from the Black Arts Movement, this concept that, you know, theater should be made by and for black people. But I think that applies to a lot of marginalized identities. We need to have theater in our communities rather than being focused on these big centers, these vortices of theater being the highlight.
00:30:06
Speaker
And when we think about like how big the country is and how stretched out it is and how far away we are from some of those epicenters, it's like what, how does that have any impact on us in reality day to day? Yeah. And with the students, would you share a little bit about what you think or what you're seeing that they need that they're not getting, uh, from the American theater, um, specifically for them? Hmm. I think.
00:30:36
Speaker
My students are smarter than me and everyone I know. I mean, I can't even tell you, they already, the kids are all right. The kids know what's, what's up. And you know, it's the other day I was in my class for theater for social change and I brought in the, uh, we see white American theater document and I was like, let's look through this document and talk about some of these items that we might be able to apply to our own department. And.
00:31:04
Speaker
my students were like 10 steps ahead of that. My students were like, all right, here's how we're going to enact these things. And here's my list of demands. And, you know, here's some actions we can take to make these happen. And here's how we should spread these kinds of policies to other places. And I mean, they are just further along than my generation was, for sure. And I think they just need the space and the support to do it. I think a lot of us need to just
00:31:32
Speaker
take steps back. I think a lot of us need to take steps out of leadership and pass the mic. I think we need to have like turn limits. I think we need to pass on leadership positions because I think they are ready. I think they're doing great work and I think we just need to let them
00:31:54
Speaker
I agree. I mean, I'm always blown away. Just always blown away and just very impressed and like, wow, okay, yeah. You do you, you've got this. Yeah, yeah. So do you have some playwrights that you would like to lift up today? Some folks that you would especially like to mention?
Playwright Praise and Challenging Narratives
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:22
Speaker
So I want to mention M. Sloth of Mine, who got to do a workshop of their play, Gender Experience, at the University of Massachusetts a couple of years ago. And it was so fantastic. I really loved that play. But the play that I'm most obsessed with of theirs is called Interramangers. And look it up. It's incredible. It's amazing. It's Scooby-Doo for Gen Z and Queers.
00:32:48
Speaker
And I love it. I think what is so useful also about the queerness of that play is that it doesn't tie up perfectly in a cute little bow. And that really frustrated some audiences. I love that. I think that they were sitting in that tension afterwards in a queer tension, in a very queer space of unknowing and unbecoming. And so that was a really beautiful play. Most of their plays are very sci-fi and fantasy themed.
00:33:17
Speaker
queer and trans themes, a little silly old goofy, really beautiful. Yeah, I also really love Azura D. Osborne Lee. And he writes plays that are this beautiful mixture of like kitchen sink realism and like Afro magical realism in this maybe surrealist fantasy way. And
00:33:43
Speaker
All of his plays I think deal so much with intersections of identity and family. And so there's a couple of plays that I really liked, but especially Red Rainbow felt like a play that was resonant to a lot of people that such a specific set
00:34:03
Speaker
that was really rich. It was really full and it felt like it was very like a world was built around me and I entered it. There's a moment where they enter a fairy ring and I entered that fairy ring. I felt like I could be in that live in that play. It was so so rich in nature.
00:34:24
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Love it. Love it. Yes. Lifting up the queer playwrights. Yes, and yes. So dramaturgs and new play artists that you'd like folks to keep a lookout for. Yeah. Actually, I shot a couple of my grad students because they taught me something so cool. A few years ago, two of my grad students, Megan Clearwood and Percy Hornack, did a project called COVID-19, which is
00:34:53
Speaker
a witchcraft coven performance on Zoom while we were all in Zoom school. And, uh, you know, it was, it was like the highlight of Zoom school for me. It was like the only time that I felt like Zoom was still connecting with people. But what they taught me, what they both like experimented with in New Play Dramaturgy was using tarot as a development tool.
00:35:18
Speaker
And I had never done that. I've read tarot for years and I had never thought of using tarot as a way to look more into your intuition and figure out a little bit more about where you're stuck in the play and where you're trying to dig deeper and what questions you might have. And working with tarot with them on new play development was surprisingly useful and exciting and a totally different way of approaching text for me. So shout out to grad students.
00:35:48
Speaker
That is fantastic. So, so would the tarot be used when there was stuck points? They use them for stuck points. They used them for characters as well. They would do like a spread for a character. Okay. Yes. To analyze like deeper into that character's background or that character's motivations. That's just, that's just, there's just such a plethora. Yeah. There's just, that's endless. I mean, that's fantastic. I do know.
00:36:15
Speaker
one dramaturg who does use tarot occasionally, but she is also a tarot card expert. So she does that as well. I love that. I absolutely love that. I think, you know, because you're tapping into your intuition with tarot, right? And it's the same toolbox as creativity. Yeah. And it got us to ask out of the box questions that we hadn't even thought to ask.
00:36:42
Speaker
And so we would pull a card and we would say like, oh, we got the fool on this one. What cliff are they diving off? What is the big risk that they're about to take? And what are they not seeing? And who is the thing that's warning them? Who is the signal? What is the sign that's trying to stop them? And playing with that is really fun. I love that so much.
00:37:06
Speaker
So organizations or maybe programs that you'd like to lift up, maybe places where they're doing incubation or potentially a queer organization that's working with queer artists. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of really great organizations that are doing both queer work and incubation. Right now I just had a really great conversation with some artists at Fresh Ink in Boston and they are doing development work for
00:37:35
Speaker
all sorts of like queer work, experimental work, playwrights that are pushing boundaries in different ways. But what I really appreciated most from my conversations with them was about how they were really tailoring the experience of development to the specific plays' needs. And that felt really
00:37:52
Speaker
necessary, but also unusual in conversations with development houses. I hadn't seen someone so blatantly say, if you wanted it this way, we would do that, right? However you need this to be, we will change and make this work. And I really appreciate that in a company. I also want to shout out a company that I'm working for right now that is amazing and transitioning towards this collectivizing model that will eventually
00:38:22
Speaker
um, phase into being an entirely BICOC leadership, primarily from the youth that used to be participants, because our youth participants, um, grow up and come back and work for the organization, which is amazing. Um, so it's called the Performance Project. And right now our performing ensemble, first-generation ensemble is presenting and touring a piece called Mother Tongue. Um, and these are youth ages 15 to 21 who are
00:38:49
Speaker
coming from, I think we have five different countries and like seven different languages represented in this group. And they're telling stories about their own lives and their parents' lives and their grandparents' lives. And it's physical theater, it's dance, it's movement, it's poetry, song, like it's so many different rich kinds of performance all woven together in this piece about their relationship
00:39:15
Speaker
to mother tones, to language, to loss of language, to loss of home, to loss of identity. And I can't even tell you how impressed I am every day with these kids that are, I mean, these are younger than my college students, and the work that they're putting on is professional quality, impressive, beautiful, and provocative work.
00:39:40
Speaker
And to see that coming out of youth that I know are going to grow up and do even more amazing things, I can't wait to see it. So shout out to Performance Project in first gen. That sounds like such an incredible program. They're so great.
00:39:57
Speaker
I know, are we lucky to get to work with all these artists? Yeah, yeah. You know, I feel so lucky all the time. And speaking of that, what advice do you have for artists today, new play artists?
Encouragement for Artists and Holistic Art Approach
00:40:10
Speaker
I think my first thing that I tell any students or any people that are considering being in theater is to make work. Don't wait around. Don't wait for the right opportunity or the right collaborator or the right amount of money to come in.
00:40:27
Speaker
Make work. Make so much work. Throw a million plays at the wall and see what sticks. Try a bunch of different techniques and see what you like. You know, experiment, but make work. Don't just think about it and wait. Don't just wait until you have the right credentials. Don't wait for the cool work until after you have your MFA. Make the work you want to make now.
00:40:53
Speaker
And you can do theater without a budget. I make theater all the time with no money. So theater in the oppressed is done with no money. So you can make theater anywhere with anyone and anything. And I think that that's what's so beautiful about theater. So if we're just waiting for the chance to have the right things, I don't think you're gonna get to have all of the opportunities you could have. Absolutely.
00:41:25
Speaker
I definitely resonate with that. I've definitely said that many times, but I think too, the idea of just constantly generating new work. And that if new work is in the moment, then something that's two years old, it may need a complete rewrite.
00:41:44
Speaker
right? And like, that's because it's two years later. And there's like a whole other world you're dealing with, right? You know, so I love I love that as advice. Even if you're like, Oh, I have so many plays, like just write more, write more, write more, just keep going. Yeah. I think to I really
00:42:03
Speaker
encourage people to also expand their collaborator network, make sure not to stick with the same folks all the time, which can be really challenging if you're already in a company or something. But you can always find ways of working with other people and still maintaining those other collaborations. It sounds like you have a pretty healthy blend of things, right? You've got this academic where you're teaching and then you have your drag world and then you have
00:42:32
Speaker
dramaturgy that you do as well, and then you're also a playwright. I guess my final main question for you would be like, I'm really interested in playwrights, experiencing all the things like we've talked about, but also knowing that they can have a career that looks unique to them.
00:42:55
Speaker
Can you talk a little bit about how you came to sort of being in all these things and maybe how they're connected for you? Sure, everything is connected for me. Yeah, I came out of undergrad and immediately went into a nonprofit that was not theater. And in that nonprofit, I discovered that applied theater was something that I could apply to working with trans people in this nonprofit.
00:43:22
Speaker
And that intersection led me to grad school, and grad school led me to discovering the drag world, which led me to discovering sound design. And then after grad school, I found intimacy choreography, and that very much deeply inspires the way that I work as a divisor or as a facilitator. Consent and boundaries are the basis of all of my work now.
00:43:50
Speaker
So it all feels connected to me and it all feels connected to like a holistic sense of humans in art. I am artist first rather than product. I am process first rather than product. And I feel like that's because of my experience with Queernice, my experience with intimacy, my experience with drive, you know, all of those things tie in together to the idea
00:44:15
Speaker
that we need to be responsible and respectful to the people in the space. There is no art without artists and so if we treat our artists poorly, if we overwork our artists, if we consider our artists just to be like makers and not also human beings with needs, I think we do a disservice to our artists and
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and I too, I also am really interested in this sort of separation that I feel like queer culture has from theater.
00:45:00
Speaker
Because I'm queer and I'm identified as genderqueer and I am interested in developing queer community within this theater community, one of the things I have seen and noticed is that a lot of queers are really in the theater, right?
00:45:17
Speaker
And it resonates or I hear in you saying that you've done drag this whole time and it kind of makes me wonder if that Kept you centered in a sense Because I also feel that I have I've definitely explored burlesque and drag as well and I think puppetry to and dance and I think for me
00:45:40
Speaker
It's all theater, you know, it's just very broad for me. And you have any thoughts about, you know, if you're queer and you don't feel like you're a part of this world, like maybe you're wrong about that. I mean, do you have any thoughts you want to share? Yeah, you know, this came up actually last week. I did a guest visit with a colleague of mine who was teaching a dramaturgy class. Dr. Megan Lewis, I visited her class and
00:46:09
Speaker
In the Q&A part of the class, a couple of students were talking about feeling like they don't have a place in the theater world. And they were specifically talking about feeling like the kind of theater they want to make isn't valued or appreciated or there isn't a place for it. And I had those exact same feelings so many times in my life.
00:46:36
Speaker
And I feel like that there's not a happy response necessarily because there's a lot of things telling you that there isn't a place for you. And that's true. There are a lot of people that will tell you that your work isn't valuable or they won't see you, but there are places that will see you. And I think rather than blooming where you're planted, where some people say that, bloom where you are watered, go where you are seen and appreciate.
00:47:03
Speaker
And I think that sometimes that means making that space for yourself. Sometimes that means creating that space and holding that line for other people in the future to see that they have a spot. But there definitely is a place, and it may not be as visible or as loud as all the other places in theater, but there definitely is a place in theater for everyone.
00:47:28
Speaker
And especially for queer people. I demand there's space for queer people. Queer people are theater. Queer people made theater. Theater itself is queer. So there is space. I love that. Theater itself is queer. It is.
00:47:52
Speaker
We're playing with identity. We're exploring a new world. We're world-building. We're imagining. We're fantasizing. We're creating. It's all very queer. Yeah, I mean, you were talking about consent in class earlier, and we were talking about the kink community. Right, yeah. You know, I mean, everything's connected. Yes. And to think that there's some sort of separation is just silly, right? Right. And to not learn from other
00:48:21
Speaker
aspects of this world and take those things and use them in theater. I mean, I mean, what a tragedy and not half of those different kinds of things that we could bring in. Like from, we were talking about in the kink community bringing in concepts of consent and like ways of thinking about consent and even using safe words when we're doing intimacy choreography or traumatic work. So the actors feel like they have a way out of things. You know, that's drawn from the kink community and now intimacy choreographers use that every
00:48:51
Speaker
And you know, this all airs acts, it all comes together. Yeah, yeah, the ancestry of cake. Right. Being very, very queer FYI.
00:49:06
Speaker
But yeah, that is one of my favorite intersections is consent And actually the the kink community is usually at a much higher level than the average Even when we're talking about a community that that practices consent Yeah, and I think too it's it's something I'm so glad that we talk a lot about today because I think
00:49:33
Speaker
especially as a femme, it's like, well, yeah, this is something I need to have permission to access. And just as we give playwrights the opportunity to make their own decisions, we give actors the opportunity to consent to the very complicated things we may be asking them to do. Which goes back to my episode with Heather Roffo, who when we talked about
00:50:03
Speaker
Playwrights being responsible for the characters they create and the experiences of the actors playing those characters, right? Right. What are we asking our actors to go through for our storytelling? And are there other tools that we can use rather than putting our actors through some sort of torturous scenes? I mean, I think sometimes
00:50:26
Speaker
we write a scene with horrendous graphic violence because we aren't using our other tools to tell the story. I don't necessarily think we should always rely on our actors sacrificing their own bodies for us to tell the story. It's as if we've forgotten that we have an imagination. Right. We have so many other options. There's this playwright, a South African playwright, Laura Fitt Newton.
00:50:57
Speaker
who writes very physical theater pieces, and she wrote this piece called Karumuz, and I use this example in intimacy choreography, but I also use this example in playwriting all the time because she has a character who, and this is necessary, critical to the story, she has a character who was assaulted by several men when she was a child.
00:51:22
Speaker
And rather than having the actors go through the experience of staging a realistic assault scene, and rather having the audience go through the experience of watching a realistic assault scene, the entire thing is done in metaphor with a soccer ball. And the metaphor of it tells the story just as clearly. I come away understanding what the characters have gone through. I understand the plot. I understand the emotional experience.
00:51:51
Speaker
And I don't have to re-traumatize myself and I don't have to re-traumatize actors. So I think that, you know, that's just one example, but there are so many playwrights that have found incredible ways to work around forcing us to do trauma on stage and forcing us to make actors relive trauma in realism. And I would add too, the idea that actors have to use personal trauma, right?
00:52:21
Speaker
when they are on stage. I just really disagree with that. Right. I want us to act. Yes, we don't need to pull from our personal traumas. We can use so many other tools.
00:52:36
Speaker
I think it's it's so key that we see actors as the humans that they are playing, you know, as much as at the table when we say share your voice, as much on the stage when we say, what do you need? You know, it's so easy to take advantage when there's so many people willing to do that work. Right. Right. You know, but the question really is, like, are you getting the best out of those people? Right.
00:53:05
Speaker
When I was training for intimacy choreography, I trained with theatrical intimacy education who have a phrase that they use that's passion fades, but choreography is forever. And we talk about it a lot in training, but basically it means you can't trust yourself to every single night access the same well of emotion or trauma or history safely and safely
00:53:33
Speaker
consistently work out of that when you leave rehearsal, but you can consistently trust that choreography will tell the same story if you're repeating it the same way. So if you can trust in your tools, in your vocal performance, in your facial expressions, in your movement, that those things are telling the story, then you don't have to rely on pulling from some wealth.
00:54:00
Speaker
I really appreciate that. Yes, I love that too. I love that too. You know, for those who are listening and aren't familiar with, you know, intimacy work and things like that, and you're interested
00:54:13
Speaker
definitely look it up. It's slow growing, but it's happening. And it's really quite fabulous to watch that work too. Just watch an intimacy coordinator work with a group of people and move them through such awkwardness into really feeling like they have agency.
00:54:34
Speaker
and feeling just so safe with their scene partners. Especially, you know, seeing films feel that way, especially for me is so important, you know, but that everybody feels that way. And, you know, I've seen scenes that have been coordinated and that are really hot make-out scenes. I'm like, it doesn't take any of the hotness out of it, you know? All that technicality, we still don't lose the passion.
00:55:05
Speaker
If we are using all the tools in our toolbox, then we're still telling a beautiful, exciting story that can follow the journey of the sexuality in a really clear way about having the actors have to feel like they do or do not know how to represent sexuality in a way more
00:55:25
Speaker
I think it demystifies acting a lot because I think a lot of actors, when we ask them to do scenes around sexuality, they feel like they have to do it the way that they think sexuality works. Or they're making assumptions about, if you tell me I want a passionate kiss, they're making a lot of assumptions about what that means, what that kind of kiss looks like, what kind of depth of touch that is. And this demystifies that by making it very technical and not making them have to feel like
00:55:54
Speaker
Well, I don't kiss like that. Am I doing it wrong? Am I a bad kisser because I didn't get the kiss the way that you wanted it to look? And instead it's really just technical. I mean, just the basics of you can touch me here, you can't touch me there.
00:56:12
Speaker
Um, you know, for my, for my brain, I go back to what is the mission of this moment? And I mean, in some ways it's like, well, I know the mission is to have this make out scene, but it's also to do it in a way that's comfortable. So you can touch me here, but not here.
00:56:29
Speaker
Right. And it's just the simplest things create just massive impact. And I feel the same about process rooms, you know, just the simplest things. What are we doing? What do you understand about this? You know, sometimes I feel like people think I'm almost too broad when I'm approaching it because I'll just be like, well, what's happening in this scene? Right.
00:56:54
Speaker
And you'll realize like everybody thinks something different is happening. And so what does that mean about the story that's being told? I mean, it's just so much fun. So thanks for breaking that down for us. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so where can listeners, uh, connect with you and keep up with your work? I have a website. It is my name, biglafever.com.
00:57:20
Speaker
You can follow what kinds of projects and productions I'm working on. And usually I'm doing a lot of freelance workshops. You'll see lists of workshops that I have available and where I'm going to next. Yeah, you can feel free to reach out to me. I love to connect with more folks that are doing this work. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. And thank you so much for joining us today. It's such a joy to have you. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:57:49
Speaker
So I'm your host, Amber Bradshaw, and I will chat with you next time.
00:57:55
Speaker
Thank you listeners for tuning in to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made with Amber Bradshaw. This podcast was brought to you by Working Title Playwrights. If you like what you've heard today, support this podcast and all our initiatives by leaving us a review, following us, and or consider making a tax-deductible donation to Working Title Playwrights at www.workingtitelplaywrights.com.