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If There Isn't A Dramaturg In the Room, You Are Not Doing New Play Development with Addae Moon
210 Plays1 year ago
Amber and Addae talk openly about new play dramaturgs and creative practice, some of Addae's favorite development structures including the WTP Ethel Woolson Lab, creating and developing community around the work of playwrights and the need for a dramaturg in new development spaces. Tune in to learn about how new plays get made!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Table Work' Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and thank you for tuning in. Welcome to Table Work, How New Plays Get Made, where my self and guest artists chat with new play theater makers about radical collaboration, the process of new play dramaturgy, and their vision for the now future.
Theater's Evolving Role Post-Pandemic
00:00:22
Speaker
As the world in the theater rebuilds, rediscovers, and realigns, we're going to be a part of that.
00:00:28
Speaker
We are here to break down how we do what we do, to demystify the process of creation, to share tools, to better the work, and to record what we
Amber's Background and Working Title Playwrights
00:00:37
Speaker
discover. I'm your host, Amber Bradshaw. My pronouns are she, they, and I am a new play dramaturg, arts administrator, and educator. This podcast is brought to you by Working Title Playwrights, a new play incubator and service organization based in Atlanta, Georgia, in which I serve as the managing artistic director.
00:00:55
Speaker
We are a support system for artists dedicated to forging the future of exceptional, inclusive, and boundary-breaking American theater. For more about WTP, check out www.workingtidalplaywrights.com. Hey, Adai. Hey, how's it going? Welcome. Thank you. And hey, everybody, thank you for tuning in. Welcome to Tablework.
Guest Introduction: Adai Moon
00:01:21
Speaker
I'd like to start today by introducing y'all to our guest Adai Moon. Adai is an Atlanta-based playwright, dramaturg, director, and cultural worker. He is the associate artistic director at Theatrical Outfit and a co-founder of the new play development and performance collective Hush Harbor Lab. Adai has served as a resident dramaturg with working title playwrights at the Wilson Lab.
00:01:45
Speaker
He was the recipient of the 2015 International Ibsen Award for his dramaturgical work on the project, Master Comic, and the 2014 John Lipsky Award from the International Museum Theater Alliance for his immersive play, Four Days of Fury, Atlanta, 1906. Adaya was also a member of the Alliance Theater's 2015-2016 Riser Atlanta Artist Lab as co-writer,
00:02:11
Speaker
on the immersive project Third Council of Leons with Found Stages. His recent immersive co-collaborations include Frankenstein's Ball and Frankenstein's Funeral, both of which he put together with Found Stages. An immersive community ritual entitled Cassie's Ballad was produced by Found Stages and Hush Harbor Lab in May and October of 2022. He is currently working on commissioned pieces for out of hands equitable dinners, Actors Express,
00:02:41
Speaker
Diatruda Rev and the High Museum of Art. Adaye received his BA in theater arts from Clark Atlanta University and an MFA in playwriting from the professional playwrights program at Ohio University. He is a member of the literary managers and dramaturgs of the Americas or LMDA and the Dramatists Guild and the Fence Network. Adaye. So Adaye, I think we met years ago. Oh my God.
00:03:11
Speaker
I don't even remember. Back when you were a media princess, I had to express. Back when we were interns, not apprentices. Oh, that's right. Interns. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.
00:03:24
Speaker
Um, but we really, we really got to know each other better when I started as the managing artistic director of working title. And you were already dramaturging a lab when I started.
Ethel Wilson Lab and Play Development
00:03:35
Speaker
Um, and of course the Ethel Wilson lab is our 29 hour workshop. Um, and we always have a dramaturg work with our playwrights for a couple of months ahead of time, as well as have them in the room. So it's a really.
00:03:47
Speaker
engaged process. And you've done, how many of those have you done for a working title? Oh, geez. Five or six. But it's such, I mean, the Wilson Lab is, I think, one of the most precise development models that I've ever worked on in terms of gameplay development. Oh, well, thank you for that. Yeah, so kudos for working titles, structuring
00:04:13
Speaker
Well, you know, since you say that, what works about it for you? Well, I think one of the things that I've always loved about it is that it is a situation where the dramaturg and the director and the playwright are really, and also the actors as well, because the actors are also doing dramaturg work in that process. Everybody has a voice in the process. Everybody is really focused on helping the playwright get the draft that they want.
00:04:44
Speaker
And I think that kind of focus and that kind of dedication from everybody in the room is I think the ideal model for Uplay development. Yeah, I really find in this work that just helping people understand what their mission is in the development space is so... It's crucial. It's like, we are all here to help this person tell the story that they want to tell.
00:05:08
Speaker
That's what everybody's job is. And so I think what that does is that it allows us to remove any kind of artistic egos because we're all here for the playwright. Absolutely. Set it aside and be of service. Yeah. Yes, I so agree.
Defining New Play Dramaturgy
00:05:25
Speaker
So I want to start out by throwing out like some definitions of a new play dramaturg. Right. A lot of people have never heard of dramaturgy or new play dramaturgy. And
00:05:37
Speaker
Um, and new play dramaturgy is definitely a newer part of the field of dramaturgy and has really changed a lot in the past 50 years. Um, from, you know, being sort of a practical editorial research historian to, um, to what we do, which is really about connection and relationship. Right. Um,
00:06:03
Speaker
So I'm going to throw one out and then you can throw one out and we'll just we'll just do that a few times. OK. A radical collaborator. Oh, yeah. A doula. Yes. A story doula. Yes. Yes. A question asker. A provocateur. Ah, yes. A shape shifter, an adapter.
00:06:30
Speaker
a lover of story and supporter of new stories. Yes, yes. And let's see, an engaged observer. A playwright's best friend. A superhero. Without a doubt, all the capes, all the time. That was fun, awesome. Awesome.
00:06:58
Speaker
So in terms of your identity as a new play dramaturg, tell us kind of what that means to you and a little bit about some of the other identities that you identify with, that you resonate with. Yeah, I think, you know, broadly I'm a theater artist. I started out as an actor and a painter with aspirations of becoming a filmmaker. And it wasn't until I got to undergrad
00:07:28
Speaker
when I saw a production of an Adrian Kennedy play, and I was like, okay, you know, I like this play thing. I like this play thing. And so, you know, and I was performing, and it was cool, and I enjoyed performing, but there was something about being able to create, I mean, it was really simple, you know, at the time when I was in undergrad, which was in the,
00:07:57
Speaker
early 90s, dating myself completely. There were not a lot of roles for young black actors.
Adai's Journey to Playwriting and Dramaturgy
00:08:05
Speaker
There were no young adult protagonists in black plays at that time. It's really interesting because now we have Terrell and Torey and some of Dominique's stuff. But at that time, if you were a young black actor,
00:08:19
Speaker
literally, you could probably do some Shakespeare and maybe some other stuff, but you literally had to wait until you were old enough to age until August Wilson. And so it was, and being a young black actor, I was like, yeah, fuck this. So I really basically started writing plays to cast me and my friends in.
00:08:45
Speaker
You know, so it was a really kind of selfish reason, but then I started realizing how much I enjoyed, you know, writing plays and building these worlds and creating these characters. So, yeah, you know, that's how it started. And then Dramaturgy came many years afterwards when I was a literary manager at Horizon Theater, and Horizon had a really,
00:09:10
Speaker
robust new play development program called the New South Festival. And it was an amazing program. And a lot of really important writers had their work developed there. I mean, Lauren had her earlier stuff developed there. Marcus Bartley, Tonya Barfield. So being the literary manager, I ended up becoming the development dramaturg for a lot
00:09:40
Speaker
development dramaturgy started for me and you know my love of it developed while I was a literary manager at Horizon so I gotta give a shout out to Lisa Adler and Horizon Peter.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, and Marguerite Henna was a great work there too. He was like, I love you, Marguerite. Yeah, and I think too, you have mentored so many young playwrights. And I guess it started then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when I left, Horizon came back to Atlanta after being in Florida for a while.
00:10:21
Speaker
I was hired to run the playwriting arm of the apprentice program there. And so that was essentially a great opportunity to me and to work with a lot of young playwrights. Love it. And I did that for almost a decade, so it's a lot of writers. Yeah, that was a great program. Yeah, that was a fantastic program. Young playwrights brought in every year and trained.
00:10:48
Speaker
She's incredible. And then, of course, the apprentice program, several of the Horizon apprentices have become very successful artists. Very successful artists. Yeah. Well, playwrights and dramaturges. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're a big part of that. I'm honored to.
00:11:06
Speaker
Awesome, okay, great.
Creative Practice and Artistic Reflection
00:11:08
Speaker
I know that you have a really cool exercise on creative practice. Yeah. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about that exercise. Yeah, so, oh gosh. Yeah, so I think that is really, really important for
00:11:33
Speaker
Well, not with a playwright, but for anyone in the theater to think about why it is that they do what they do.
00:11:40
Speaker
And so what I do when I do this exercise is to really get the artist to think about, okay, you know, what does my practice mean for me, not just as it relates to my career, but as it relates to both, you know, this kind of personal, this personal path. And if you want to, you know, get really kind of heady and woo woo about it, a spiritual path, like, you know, how are all these things in my life intertwined with my practice as an artist?
00:12:08
Speaker
because I think articulating that, articulating that like actually writing it down and like reviewing it and revising it over time, I have found is literally the fuel that keeps me going because it's very difficult to stick in this field, you know, when you have to deal with the realities of like not getting paid a lot of money.
00:12:34
Speaker
So you have to for yourself justify why you're doing it. And so for this idea of articulating your creative practice, I think for me is a way to get an artist to both articulate all the needs that this craft is providing for them and allowing space for that to shift and expand over time through time.
00:13:02
Speaker
I love that so much. I often talk with my dramaturg friends about being an artist and a contributor in a space.
00:13:12
Speaker
and not looking at your work as somehow the practical, logical, non-artistic side of things, right? Right, right, right. And I think, you know, and it goes back to what you were saying about, you know, this idea of dramaturgy, especially in the United States, it, you know, has been traditionally very limited to like production dramaturgy.
00:13:33
Speaker
doing research, pulling stuff together for the designers and the actors and the director. But I think dramaturgy is so much more than that.
00:13:43
Speaker
And I think once we realize what having a dramaturg in the room can do, not just for the new play development process, but for the production process, for the outreach and engagement process, I think theaters will be so much richer for it. Once we understand that this field of understanding story and hoping to cultivate story, how that can bleed into other things that a theater does,
00:14:14
Speaker
But it's going to take a while to convince people of its value.
Theater Processes and Storytelling Structures
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah. And that's fine. We got time. Yeah. We got time. We're here for it. We're here for it. Part of what this podcast is about. Let's talk about how we do what we do. Because people say, oh, well, how do you, is there a structure for what you do in us? Every single process is different. It's completely different. Every single one, because if you are working with
00:14:40
Speaker
The same play rate, it's probably a different play.
00:14:43
Speaker
Right. Right. So it's a different process. Right. And I think the thing that connects everything, I mean, for me, even as a director, is the text. It's like, what's on the page? That's the jumping off point for all of us. And so as a dramaturg, being a person whose main job is focused on what is happening in the text and how can we make sure that all the layers that's in that text are being illuminated
00:15:13
Speaker
for the actors, for the director, for the playwright even. It's really helping people to see what's both in the lines of dialogue and what's between the lines of dialogue. Yeah, definitely.
00:15:29
Speaker
In terms of the creative practice exercise that you do, there was like, you had like words. It was like listing words that describe your practice. And then it was a list of like books or songs or things like that, that also reflect that practice. Right. Right. And I thought that was so cool. I had never done it. So I got to do it with the class. And, and I was like, this is so fun to think about.
00:15:57
Speaker
what exactly would be the description of my practice? And then thinking about the books that would connect to that, and that that would literally constantly shift. Constantly, and it is actually, so that whole exercise came from this older exercise called the milestone exercise, where essentially like you talk about all the milestones in your life. But, and I think the things that we love in terms of the art that we love, the movies we love, the songs that we love, like,
00:16:26
Speaker
What people don't realize is that we are drawn to things that reflect who we are. So simply making a list of those things, you get a lot of insight into, you know,
00:16:38
Speaker
your sweet spot as an artist. And again, as those lists shift and change, your sweet spot shifts and changes. And the way you engage in your practice shifts and changes. So I think, for me, the first part is getting to know what those things are. Because we know them, but we never really see them written out.
00:17:01
Speaker
And then once you start seeing the connections, it's like, oh, I love this movie and this song. And this totally relates to the kind of stuff that I created as a writer. So getting people to see how the things that they love are actually reflections of who they are and ideally guideposts to their creative path and process, I found to be very, very helpful.
00:17:25
Speaker
That really speaks to like continuing artist education too, right? Because like if what you're reading and surrounding yourself with is what is inspiring you, then make sure that you're shifting it up and you're adapting and you're trying new things and you're exposing yourself. And you're expanding like you're expanding. Because I think the more you see, the more you challenge yourself as both, you know, a writer, as an intellectual, as a thinker, as a human being,
00:17:52
Speaker
So the more you stretch out and get your fingers enhanced into everything, the more expansive the work that you create becomes. I love that. I love that about creative practice. I would encourage everybody to just sit down and write down all the things that you think describe your creative practice.
00:18:12
Speaker
like 10 things that you feel are references to that in some way. Yeah. I mean, you know, make a list of those things that describe your actual practice. Then, you know, list your favorite books, list your favorite movies, list your favorite songs, and see where those intersections happen. And I think it's always surprising to see that there are intersections. So much. Yeah. Thank you for that. So, okay. So,
00:18:37
Speaker
In terms of new play dramaturgy, how do you like to get started with a playwright? How do you build a relationship founded on trust and respect? And what are some of your favorite ways of engaging with playwrights? Especially, I'm going to start with the last one first. I mean, I think it's so important that you approach any artistic or creative relationship as a genuine relationship.
00:19:07
Speaker
Like, you know, I'm not just simply going to be your drama turd, but we're going to become buds. Let's hang out. Let's have a coffee. Let's just shoot the shit and figure out how that relates to the work that you're working on.
00:19:22
Speaker
So I think it's really important to like approach any kind of collaborative process with like genuine sincerity and openheartedness. And I think that that's the first step. And then the next step for me then is figuring out, you know, what the writer is trying to accomplish with this next draft that they're working on. What are some of the questions that they have?
00:19:49
Speaker
And once we figure out what those questions are, what those objectives are, then I have this little checklist that I give writers that drives them crazy. And it's really a structural checklist. And it's allowing them to look at the play through several different structural lenses.
00:20:13
Speaker
And for them to like, just to write down and clarify what the story is from these different lenses. And what I found out is that they discover a lot about the play that they're writing that they didn't even consider before. And so once we get that checklist down and then we can really start talking about, okay, so what story are we trying to tell? And then my job is coming up with the questions
00:20:43
Speaker
that are going to challenge them to think about the steps they need to get to that goal of telling the story they want to tell. Right on. Can you talk a little more about the structural lens? Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, of course we, you know, we live in the West. We were all, you know, kind of educated in the same kind of Eurocentric idea about narrative structure, very Aristotelian.
00:21:08
Speaker
So there's a Aristotelian lens in this checklist that's kind of like, you know, free tax period middle, which is kind of a rip on the Aristotelian lens as well. There's, you know, thinking about things like protagonist, antagonist, confidants and mentors. And then there's some other approaches that are less rigid and linear as well as part of the checklist, because I, you know, I always tell people, you know, as a person that began as a poet,
00:21:37
Speaker
who was strongly against the idea of a resilient structure. I realized once I learned it how helpful it is because the thing about that structure and the thing about linear structure is that even when things are nonlinear, our brains are gonna try to make linear sense of them. So it's important for a playwright to know that this is how the audience is gonna view your work. So this is a lens that you need to know that they're gonna approach, most people are gonna approach it with this lens.
00:22:09
Speaker
the middle of what's the end. And so once the playwright gets to look at and describe and explore the play from all these lenses, then it gives them, I think, more flexibility in terms of how they want to tell the story. Because they're aware of what they're trying to do, but they're also really aware of what the audience is going to see. I'm a strong believer in
00:22:37
Speaker
this awareness and embracing of the audience as a part of the process. You know, we want to challenge them, but I also think we don't want to shut the door on them and dismiss them. So it's important to know what the audience is going to see in the experience. And so the checklist allows them to look at the story from these different perspectives. I think too, like, even if you don't like Aristotle, because, you know, I'm the same way. I'm not a big fan, but
00:23:04
Speaker
Even if you don't like it, it's really important to understand it. You gotta understand, yeah. Be an expert in it, especially if you're a new play dramaturg, because that is the structure that most American audiences are comfortable with. So if you decide to do something that is different, you're actively using the structure of the play to challenge. Exactly. And that is how you're acknowledging the audience, right? It's like, this is different. This is different. I always think of when I first saw Memento, it was one of the first
00:23:35
Speaker
And I remember thinking, I have no clue what's happening. I really don't know what's going on and that is so not the point. And I get that, but you literally spend the entire time linking the story together. So you're trying, they're breaking it up so you have to link it together. And that, it reminded me of that when you were talking about the structural stuff because
00:23:58
Speaker
Memento is trying to disassociate you from the structure so that you experience what he's experiencing, right? Right, right. So literally, and that's why, as a dramaturg, I talk about structure a lot. I'm like, the structure of your play is based on how you want it told, how you want it heard, what the content is. You shouldn't just sit down and say, I'm going to write a play about this. It's going to be in this structure. Right, right. He's like, no, no, no. Structure needs to align with the content. It needs to align. And with the audience, and with the theater,
00:24:29
Speaker
all of it has to align. Exactly. And I would say, you know, getting back to the idea of like, you know, expanding what you read and what you experience, like learn as many different structures as possible because there's no one structure for telling the story. I mean, they fluctuate depending on the culture. So it's like, you know,
00:24:48
Speaker
read plays outside the culture, read plays that you hate. That's something I tell a lot of my students all the time. I'm like, you don't have to like every play. You don't have to like every production. Like, you know, read and see things that you don't necessarily like because you're going to learn something from it. If you're open to it, you're going to learn something from it. And I think, you know, the thing with linear structure and Aristotelian structure is that I feel like you got to understand it.
00:25:18
Speaker
to break the rules. You got to, you know, master this, like, you know, this common way of approaching narrative in order to play around with it and implode it. Yeah, definitely. And it makes me also think of, you know, for for those who are like, huh, this is interesting. What might be some resources? And I would say Susan Laurie Parks essays on style, the elements of style specifically, but her that
00:25:46
Speaker
three series of essays is really incredible where she talks about how she builds her own structures. Um, and as a, as a dramaturg, when I'm working with people, that's what I encourage them to do is you need to create the structure that works for you. Um, and because you're often going to find that the ones that are out there may not have what you're looking for or may not fit, right? And depending on what, what culture you hail from, the way stories are told can be just wildly different.
Diverse Storytelling Influences and Techniques
00:26:16
Speaker
I mean, right now we're working with a playwright who is a coda, right? So both of their parents speak sign language and are hearing impaired. And so that makes sense because this playwright uses imagery.
00:26:34
Speaker
and sign literally like the story is being told in just a lot of different ways and text is really just one of them right and when they shared with me that that was their background I was like of course you speak more than one language and the other one that you speak is based entirely
00:26:54
Speaker
And we have to understand too that like visuals are, that's also text. Like text isn't just what's written. Like, I mean, text is really like, I mean, whatever the con, you know, I always use Beyonce as an example, because I think, you know, what she, you know, and I truly believe that Beyonce is not a person but a team. But I think what that team does, like in terms
00:27:24
Speaker
elements, the performance elements, the actual songs and lyrics themselves is that, you know, Beyonce is giving us multiple texts that are layered on top of each other. And so the beauty and the depth and the breadth of like a
00:27:49
Speaker
several different levels. It's not just what is written. It's also what we see. It's what we experience. It's what we hear. And so I think the more we understand that text, you know, isn't just about words, the fuller our, you know, creative expressions on stage will be. I love that. I love that. I'm still waiting for that video album to drop though. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's done here. Where's the video album? It's a renaissance. Yeah.
00:28:16
Speaker
I don't know if I know other people have done video albums, but just the way that
00:28:23
Speaker
she aligns all of the things that she's doing, I agree. I was watching the homecoming concert the other day, and I was like, this fucker. I was just like, literally, you do a concert that embraces all of these performative elements of black culture into one fucking concert. It's brilliant. And it's saying so much about both the resilience of the culture and the complexity of the culture.
00:28:50
Speaker
But you know, and I think, you know, and I feel strongly about this as it relates to theater, I think, and especially as it relates to theater in Atlanta, and this has been like, you know, something I've been saying for years, I want Atlanta theater to be as rich in complexes as the city's music is.
00:29:11
Speaker
The music is so rich and complex and vital. And I want the theater that's being made in the city to be as rich and complex as vital as the music that comes out of this city.
Southern Stories and Theatrical Outfit's Initiatives
00:29:26
Speaker
I love that. And I think that's a really good challenge for Atlanta. Yeah. Because Atlanta is known for music. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's
00:29:36
Speaker
it's time we sort of connect with what's here and really tell the stories of this place, which I have been saying since I started running Working Title is I'm Southern. I'm from Atlanta. I have a particular interest in Southern stories being told in a way that I think is authentic, which I see almost never, especially in TV and film. Everybody's
00:30:01
Speaker
like from Alabama. Right. And they're all the same. And it's just it's just so boring. Right. So part of it for me is always about getting Southern writers to tell their stories so that the rest of the world understands who we are, who we actually are. And you know, like, I mean, I mean, one of the primary reason why you can apply for the job at T.O.
00:30:24
Speaker
was that I knew that there was a shift towards new play development and we're about to launch the Made in Atlanta series and the ideal behind Made in Atlanta.
00:30:37
Speaker
from the very beginning was that we want to commit to helping to develop stories from Atlanta-based artists and Southern artists in a more expansive sense, but also to really develop a canon of work that is coming out of this city and is coming out of this region.
00:30:59
Speaker
of the country and to really challenge this idea of what a Southern writer is, which has normally been, you know, white male.
00:31:13
Speaker
And so this idea of deconstructing what it is to be a Southern writer and this idea that there's no one South either, there are multiple Souths. And so how can we be an organization that helps to facilitate a space where these stories are developed and told and presented?
00:31:35
Speaker
Um, because I think that's also a part of the new play development process is that these shows are actually fucking produced. Yeah. And not simply, you know, caught in development hell forever. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk more about the Made in Atlanta program. You have some readings coming up. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, so before I started at the theater, um, uh, Matt Torney was the Artistic Director.
00:31:59
Speaker
commissioned a piece by a writer out of DC Song to create a piece about, a hip hop musical about young John Lewis and the early years of John Lewis's life from his decision to fight for injustice up until the point of Dr. King's assassination and the riots that happened afterwards. So like, just a real small snippet of his life.
New Play Development and Community Engagement
00:32:27
Speaker
So that's one of the pieces that we're developing from scratch. Another piece is this amazing play by Megan Tobach called Maramy Bruno Mars that I first saw at Emery's Brave New Works Festival and it blew my mind because it's funny, it's quirky, it's weird, it's heartbreaking. It is loosely based and inspired by
00:32:54
Speaker
the tragic incidents of a couple of summers ago at these massage parlors where these women were murdered. But it approaches it from such this amazingly gentle and sympathetic
00:33:09
Speaker
And so when I saw it, I was like, this is an Atlanta show. And in Atlanta show, we haven't seen before. And it would be great if, you know, T.O. jumps on board to help support this work. And the third project is Leo Sario's Prophet's Canyon, which was, you know, initially developed at the Unexpected Play Festival, which is the festival that T.O. does in collaboration with Working Title.
00:33:38
Speaker
And so Lee is presenting, I think, the first reading of it at a church. And so we're just really providing some rehearsal support and dramaturgical support and production support on our end because we really love the piece. And again, it's like we want to support Atlanta-based artists as much as we can. Yeah, that's awesome.
00:34:07
Speaker
Those all sound like really cool projects. And the Made in Atlanta program, is that like an ongoing program? It's going to be ongoing each year. So it's going to be a festival situation, but also like throughout the year, we also want to do readings and development workshops of other plays that we're interested in. But at the end of the day, it's like, you know, I think the question that we ask ourselves is like, you know, how can we help
00:34:33
Speaker
How can we as a theater company help to make Atlanta a center for new play development? And I think we have everything in place to make that happen. And it's about collaborations with other folks who are doing this work as well to make sure that that becomes a thing, because I totally think it's possible. Yeah, I agree. And the fact that you and Matt are so committed
00:35:00
Speaker
to that is amazing. And you know, I hope that more of our producers get on board with realizing that supporting the community will return
00:35:12
Speaker
And that's the thing, it's like, you know, I think, you know, we've always struggled. I mean, I think all communities struggle with the idea of community, but I know from being here for so long, that's always been a, you know, struggle, really seeing that we are a community. We're all interconnected in some way. There really is no, I mean, there's competition if you want, if you want there to be competition, where we all are kind of doing our own thing and we should be there to support each other. And especially if a part of that support
00:35:42
Speaker
is creating a space for artists in the city to create work. I think we should all be like right there, making sure that that happens. Yeah, definitely. And I think too, this idea that we're in competition is just so unfortunate to me. It's like, we are here as collaborators and we cannot do theater alone. And this is one of the few arts that you literally cannot do by yourself.
00:36:12
Speaker
You can't, you can't, you know. And I love that about it, you know? I mean, we can even have a cast and everyone else we meet, but if there's not an audience member, there's not a show. There's not a show. And again, and so the audience is also a part of that process. It's like, you know, how can we cultivate these audiences? How can we educate these audiences? I mean, the audiences, for me, the audiences in this city are as important as the artists in this city. And so how can we bring everybody to the table?
00:36:42
Speaker
and just like, you know, and have a good time, you know, sharing story, you know, sharing narrative. And so on one end, this development, you know, developing this kind of Southern dramatic canon is really
00:36:59
Speaker
also like this idea of playing around with, you know, what's, what's an Atlanta aesthetic in terms of, you know, the stories we tell, you know, there's definitely a Chicago aesthetic. Like I know that aesthetic really well. Like I can read and play and I'm like it's right, it's from Chicago. There's a New York aesthetic. So it's just like, so, you know, so, so, so, so the question and not saying that we have to be rigid and fix, you know, make one aesthetic, but the question is like, you know, what might an Atlanta aesthetic be?
00:37:25
Speaker
And how might writers and artists, you know, writers and actors and directors and producers play around and explore in that playground of what to potentially become an Atlanta aesthetic as well. Love it. I love that. That's great. Yeah. And I think too, you know, letting people know that theatrical outfit really does want to be a place where community is welcome. And
00:37:50
Speaker
and that they're, y'all are accessible. You know, reach out, reach out to people, ask for coffee, get to know the staff. I mean, Matt is brand new, you know, he started literally the pandemic year. So he's still meeting everybody. And I think there's just so much discussion that we can all be doing with each other about what our struggles are and how we connect with each other. Like, what does your audience want? What does your audience want?
00:38:20
Speaker
Um, my organization is, is just now starting to plan a listening tour for early next year, because we haven't done one since I started seven years ago. And we really are, you know, obviously we're a service organization. So for us specifically reaching out and saying, what do you need? What do you want? How can we serve you? Something we should always be doing, but I really feel like all the producers, uh, could really use some of that so that.
00:38:47
Speaker
they understand what kind of support would be useful to the community. Sometimes I think we offer support and we're not offering the right kind and we just don't know. And it's just a matter of talking with each other about what's needed. One of the things Matt talks about a lot is the theater being empty and wanting it to have people in it when the producer is not in there. And so this idea of we have these buildings with space, how can we share them?
00:39:16
Speaker
and that theater should be a space, not simply to see shows, but it should be a place where community, where people hang out, where people want to be. I mean, I was a part of this amazing project at Alabama Shakespeare a couple of years ago, where Rick Gildine, who's the artistic director, he took, I think it was five or six Southern playwrights, and we went to different cities throughout the South,
00:39:44
Speaker
and talk to people about what it is to be Southern. Because the whole idea about it was that, you know, we wanted to see, you know, and I think that theater in particular wanting to know, but also as writers, we wanted to know what kinds of stories did people who lived where we lived and where, what kind of stories did they want to hear? Like, what were the stories that weren't being told?
00:40:10
Speaker
You know, I think it's really, you know, that's why I think, you know, being aware of the audience and the audience's needs is so crucial for people in this art form because it's like, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we're doing this for an audience. And I'm not saying that we're necessarily like catered to all the audience's whims. We should definitely know what it is that they want to see and what it is that they value.
00:40:39
Speaker
And I think once we really start factoring that in, we'll get more people, more butts in seats. Once we start factoring in what people actually want to see and the stories that they haven't heard or they want to hear.
00:40:52
Speaker
Because I think we've just scratched the surface, you know, it really becomes, from a producer's perspective, you know, in terms of like programming for a season, it kind of becomes race and repeat. You know, your musical, your classical show may be a new work, but usually a new work that's been done in Chicago or New York first. But you know, not something that's brand new or a world premiere, but something that's been done
00:41:21
Speaker
So it's like, okay, that's, and I understand that model and why it's financially feasible, but also too, it's like, but what does the audience where you are, what do they wanna see that they haven't seen? What might bring people who don't normally come to see theater come and experience something in your space? And I think those are the questions we have to start answering and asking.
00:41:47
Speaker
I mean, I often think one of the issues, you know, as a person who's queer and who doesn't see a lot of my queer people in the theater, it's like one of the things I think is holding theater back is just theater. Yeah. Like this concept of what theater is. Exactly. Right. You know, in the queer community, a lot of our queers are in the performance art world. And to me,
00:42:12
Speaker
that's not any different than theater. But they think it's different. Because when I talk to people about it, there's a specific difference for them in the experience that they have. And so I think something I'm always looking for is a way to help people know that when I say theater, I'm talking about experiencing live performance generally. And like,
00:42:35
Speaker
that just means it has a narrative with it. That's all. And this limiting idea of we're gonna go, there's gonna be a proscenium stage, we're gonna sit in the dark. Quietly. We're gonna be quiet, yeah. I'm like, I love going to see shows where people are active and talking and some other people might not like that, but I love it. I love, so I've had the honor of spending the last couple of years doing a lot of immersive work.
00:43:01
Speaker
And the thing about immersive work that's exciting for me and has always been exciting is that the folks that come to immersive experiences aren't normal theater girls. And so you get to see these folks who would not normally come and see a show experience something. And I really think we have to accept the fact that the term theater is elitist as fuck.
Challenges in Theater Perception and Inclusivity
00:43:23
Speaker
Yes. And it turns people off. I know we love it, but it turns people off.
00:43:30
Speaker
So we really need to think about, okay, what narrative-based experiences are we creating for our audiences? How can they be involved in these experiences? It's not simply about seeing the show. And so I think we have to conceptually start thinking that way.
00:43:49
Speaker
in order to draw people in. Because I think if we continue to see, you know, to strictly see what we do as, you know, theater, as it's very commonly this art form, it will no longer exist in this country. It's not financially feasible for any artist that's involved in it. I mean, this country does not support theater.
00:44:11
Speaker
I've been spending some time in Canada, and I'm like, oh, they really support theater. So I'm just like, but that's not happening in America, and I don't think it's happening any time soon. So I think really, you just need to start thinking about, okay, how can we create experiences for people?
00:44:29
Speaker
and seduce them into this world of theater. That doesn't mean we stop doing the classics and we stop doing other things, but I think we really need to expand our idea of programming and what programming entails, and it's not simply putting up a fucking show and doing a talk back.
00:44:46
Speaker
You know, it's much more involved. It's about creating relationships. It really, really is with your audience, with other organizations in your community, with the artists in your community. If you're not creating these relationships and building these communal experiences, then you won't last. I just think that's where we are right now. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think
00:45:13
Speaker
I think right now is also just a really challenging time for all the producers, you know, this, you know, really having to figure out what, what they need to do next. Right. And, you know, working titles in a place of not having our own space and being pretty flexible, you know, so.
00:45:32
Speaker
You know, we hope that as we grow, we will grow towards what the future can sustain rather than something that's behind us, you know? So I encourage all producers to really start thinking about how to sustain as growth, like to grow into new audiences and new ideas about what we do, you know? And to not be too limited and too held back and maybe to find ways of
00:46:00
Speaker
cutting back on things that are holding you back, literally. Working titles always had a dream of having our own space. That would be great, but the amount of stress that it would be to do that, it's just too much. And so that's why it's so wonderful that we now have this relationship with theatrical outfit where we are in residence with theatrical outfit and that is our home.
00:46:25
Speaker
And yet we get to be separate entities. So there's a really exciting growth for us there because we have to stay adaptable. And it just seems like the bigger these companies get, the harder and harder it is for them to do anything.
00:46:44
Speaker
And to see what Theatrical Outfit is doing with the Made in Atlanta program, you know, it's not just this one thing. It's like one of your foundational programs. Right. Right. Right. It's not like we wrote this grant for this new play festival. So we're going to do it this one year. This one year. And then never again. And the big goal, you know, maybe four or five years in the future is that each season we should be producing shows that either come out of Made in Atlanta or unexpected play festival.
00:47:14
Speaker
Absolutely. At least one or two a season. That seems to be the most logical progression of this. And that's definitely something that I'm personally pushing for. Because otherwise, why the fuck do it? If we're not willing to put our money behind these shows and get them on their feet, then to me, you're paying lip service and you're a player developer. Yeah.
00:47:43
Speaker
New plays need building blocks. And a new play incubator like Working Title can only do a certain amount. Producers have to chip in. They have to be a part of that process. And if they aren't, there won't be new plays to develop to produce because the support isn't behind them. I mean, we see a lot of playwrights have relationships with theaters.
00:48:10
Speaker
But those people are usually at a much higher level of their career. So if you look at someone like Tracy Lettson, you go, oh, well, Steppenwolf does everything that he does. Oh, okay. Well, he's a Steppenwolf. But a lot of people don't realize that about Tracy Lettson, right? A lot of people don't know. Rebecca Gilman was a Goodman playwright for quite a while. And a lot of these playwrights have homes where they get to develop things and where producers invest in them. And I think that's part of where the
00:48:37
Speaker
the miscommunication is in the new play development world is whose responsibility is this? And how do we make it come to fruition? And I think the answer is everybody's. And that's part of it goes back to what you said originally about what work in title is doing with the Ethel Wilson lab is everybody in this room is a part of this process and everyone's voice matters. And when we say that, we actually mean it.
00:49:04
Speaker
We actually need it. It's not just lip service. But we also have rules of engagement that we set in place. We have facilitators. We always have a dramaturg in the room. And so it allows for that openness because there is a structure in place that lets people know what the vision of that workshop is.
00:49:25
Speaker
And I think sometimes people get lost in the process of new play development because they don't have the structures in place and they haven't put the building blocks where they need to go before everybody is in the room. I mean, one of the things that I find I have to do when I am creating a new play development workshop is all the artists need to know what's going on. They need guides, they need support, they need introductory meetings where they meet with each other and they can ask questions like,
00:49:55
Speaker
new play development is not structured in one way it's not but but but i will say this and this is probably going to be controversial i feel very strongly about this if a dramaturg is not in the room you are not doing new play
00:50:18
Speaker
There are so many situations in which people are saying that they're doing nuclear development and a dramaturg is not in the room. I'm not talking about the literary manager at your theater. I'm talking about the dramaturg that's not associated with your theater. I'm not talking about a producer.
00:50:35
Speaker
I'm talking about an independent dramaturg in the room who is a part of this process. If you're not doing it, then you're not doing your play development as far as I'm concerned. And you're also not doing anything that's really going to benefit the playwright because your focus then is strictly on what's producible and what's not, and not on the actual development of the story itself.
00:50:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I also hear you saying too, like it's not somebody on staff because generally a dramaturg should be selected per project. Exactly. So if you're hiring someone on staff and just assigning them three of the productions that year, that's not aligned with doing the work in a way that is authentic or really healthy then, right? Yeah, because I mean, that person then becomes kind of a default producer too. And that's, yeah, that's not a healthy situation.
00:51:26
Speaker
in a new play development process. I mean, the producer has his role, definitely, but in a development process, it needs to be someone who is not necessarily affiliated with the theater or someone who is clear-sighted enough to put their producer hat to the side and focus on what the playwright needs and wants.
00:51:46
Speaker
And I would even go so far as to say it's really important that the director in that space understands that their role as a new play director is a different one than when they are directing a fully produced show. Right. Same is true for the actors. I mean, I think for me in a new play development process, both the director and actors are also dramaturgs.
00:52:11
Speaker
Yeah. Right. So this idea of like people that want to bring ideas into the room that are not part of the text, you know, that's going to, that's not going to align with the process. You know, absolutely. I agree. And it might be controversial, but let's just keep saying it. There's not a dramaturg in the room. You're not doing nuclear development.
00:52:36
Speaker
But also, I think, you know, Atlanta isn't a very interesting thing right now. And I think in the theater community, we have to deal with the reality that this is also a film town. Yes, it is. And not sort of shy away and be intimidated by it, but actually embrace it.
00:52:56
Speaker
I'm curious, you know, we already know that the film and TV world is taking all the fucking American playwrights.
Dramaturgy in Film and Television
00:53:03
Speaker
So, you know, my question then becomes, you know, what might be a dramaturg's role in those mediums? Yeah. You know, how might they function in those mediums as well? And I think that's, you know, and also too, you know, how computers, especially, I don't think, talking about Atlanta specifically because of the dynamics of the film industry here,
00:53:25
Speaker
How can theaters be in collaboration with folks that are producing film and television? I think not thinking about that is detrimental, will be detrimental. Yeah, no, I agree. I think there's so much collaboration yet to even figure it out between film, theater, and television communities in this city. I mean, we have people ask us that a lot of the time. Can we bring in screenplays? And I'm like, yeah.
00:53:54
Speaker
Right. Sometimes when things are really stylized, it doesn't work as well. Or, you know, like I've dramaturged some some screenplays and I was I was very interested in how different the structure was. Oh, yeah. Which I thought was fun. It's a visual medium. So, yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting the way it's like by take. Yeah. You know, so there is structurally, there's a difference because as a dramaturge, the structure is kind of
00:54:20
Speaker
place a little bit, right? Whereas you're more clarifying and making sure that the full story is being told, right? Like that the arc is working and all that stuff. It felt the same. I felt like I used a lot of the same tools. You know, I do think I had, I went more into my visual and I watch, and I watch TV and film. So, um,
00:54:41
Speaker
You know, I'm not like most theater people who are like, well, watch. I only read books. No, actually only read plays. Um, but yeah, so I, I really think that it's very similar. And so why not collaborate? Right. Right. Right. And actually I think there's so much.
00:55:04
Speaker
exciting stuff to learn that I have no idea about that's all screenplay oriented that I would just love to get into. Yeah, I think it I think it very much aligns and it does make me wonder what we can
00:55:19
Speaker
what we can develop, you know, I've had people reach out to me here and there. We even thought about developing an arm of screenwriting for working title. It's like, we're just not sure. So that's kind of part of what the listening tour is like. Is that something that's probably going to be one of the questions? Yeah. Is that something that would be interesting to people? Because I'm concerned that if we don't
00:55:42
Speaker
make those connections and develop those relationships in this city in particular. I've seen that happen in other places. We're literally going to lose playwrights. Yeah. Yeah. Because the money's too good over there. And why deal with the foolishness and fuckery of theater when you can deal with the foolishness and fuckery of TV and film and make more money?
00:56:04
Speaker
So it would behoove us to try to find a way to build those bridges so that, you know, people, I mean, I had a conversation with three younger theater artists that I really respect. And, you know, they were all saying, like, you know, we're committed to being in Atlanta, to being Atlanta-based artists, and we're committed to doing, you know, and they're all doing like a lot of TV and film, but they're also committed to doing theater as well.
00:56:29
Speaker
So it's like, I mean, to me, that was exciting. So I'm like, how can we make sure that that remains the thing? Because it's easy. It'll be easy for us to lose people. And I don't think we can afford to lose any more people. Yeah. I always think that if we can make the experience of making theater as exciting as it can be,
00:56:53
Speaker
then we can beat those TV and film people every day. The thing is, we have to make it exciting because we can't make it more financially lucrative. No. So it's like if we can't make it more financially lucrative, then we have to make it exciting. Exciting, engaging, connected. It needs to be sexy as fuck. And if it's not sexy as fuck,
00:57:18
Speaker
then really, I mean, people are gonna stop coming to it. Yeah. I mean, you know, that actually makes me think of the show that I saw last night, Hurricane Season by Vernal and Cyr. And I think there's a lot to be said for looking at Vernal and Cyr's model. Oh, definitely. Right? Definitely. And because they're doing really exciting new work all the time
00:57:44
Speaker
And honestly, whether you understand or like the content has very little to do with the experience for me. Because the work is so in depth. It is so thorough.
00:57:59
Speaker
You can tell they've rehearsed, you can tell they're connected, you can tell they have thought through every single moment and they have made choices. And I often find that no choices are being made when I see things and I'm like, what happened? What happened? Did anybody talk about this? And our rehearsal processes are so short now. How do these actors connect? And what they're doing as a young company that I'm really appreciating,
00:58:28
Speaker
And it's very much like European model where it's like the artists are involved in this collaborative process for a long period of time. I'm sure, you know, sacrificing a lot of other projects to work on a project. And so you end up with something that even if it's like crazy and wild and experimental, it's so vibrant, it's so alive. And again, if we can't give the audiences that,
00:58:55
Speaker
Cause that's what we can't, that's what theater does. That's like theater's strong point. And if we can't give that to them, then what are we doing? Exactly. You know. Exactly. Everything to me ends up being about the intent of each single artist. And if they are fulfilled and excited and like just thrilled to be there,
00:59:20
Speaker
then every member of that audience should feel the same way. And that is what I experience when I go see Bernal and Cyr shows. And it's often what I experience if it's a theater company that's maybe recently for maybe a year or two, they've got a lot of energy going, maybe they're not beaten down by the government funding yet, there's still a level of ecstasy to that.
00:59:45
Speaker
You know, I think the key for me as an artist is maintaining that ecstasy, is figuring out a way to not let all of the limits and boundaries stop me from doing what I know is like
01:00:01
Speaker
what I should be doing, right? And to find myself in spaces where I feel really good, because there's no other reason to be doing it, right? And if we're coming into a space and we're not enjoying it, and then we're sharing that with an audience, then we're also not doing them a service.
01:00:19
Speaker
We're not, and there's this wonderful book that I want to recommend because I'm obsessed with it. It's called Theater of the Unimpressed by Jordan Tomahill, and he's a Canadian playwright. But in the book, he really talks about, and I love this idea, this idea that like small theaters, as opposed to mid-sized theaters or large theaters, have so much flexibility in terms of what they can do.
01:00:47
Speaker
And I used to give this book to apprentices in Horace's apprentice program because it is my dream that everybody who's in an apprentice program in the city or who's a young artist coming out of undergrad starts a theater company.
Training Future Dramaturgs and the Role of Criticism
01:01:05
Speaker
This city needs more young theater companies. And even if they don't last a long time, it just needs to constantly be churning out young theater companies. Because that's how theater remains and becomes vibrant, not because of companies like Theatia Outfit.
01:01:27
Speaker
but it's the young theater companies and the new theater companies that keep theater alive. And so I would, you know, I would encourage, especially young theater artists, it's like, don't fucking waste your energy auditioning for all these shows and all these other theaters. I'm saying that as a person that does casting. But still, but no, go out there and make some shit and find the space to have it done. That is the most powerful thing that we can do.
01:01:56
Speaker
And a lot of us who are where we are now, like you and I, that's how we started. That's literally how we started. Literally. So if people ask, how did you get known and why were you offered this job? It was because I was producing my own work and I was producing the work of other people. Right.
01:02:14
Speaker
and it was different every time and i still filled my theaters and i still did my marketing and got everything done right and people saw that right you know and that's and then you get to you get to make mistakes and you get to try things and be in practice because
01:02:32
Speaker
I know dramaturgs love to talk, but I really love practice. And I find that I learn best when I'm actually doing the thing. You can read all the books in the world, but they're not really going to help you figure out what actually you need to know about yourself when things get really tough.
01:02:54
Speaker
And you are in charge. I think that's a hard thing, especially for, I guess, academically trained dramaturgs to understand this. It's great to know all the theories and to have all the ideas and to be very logical and linear in your thinking. But if you ain't actually creating no shit, then I don't know what service that you're serving to the theater.
01:03:21
Speaker
academia so it's like you know what are you creating you know or what are you helping to facilitate and you know someone else to create so and that's a great point too is like a lot of the dramaturgs working in new play dramaturgy today trained themselves
01:03:39
Speaker
learned how to work with playwrights by practicing. By practicing. That's the only way to learn. One of the reasons I'm training new play dramaturgs now is because I would hope that we could avoid some of the mistakes I made. Yeah. Because they were painful and not just for me, right? So there are mistakes and they will always be made, but if you can find a way to train, especially if you're interested in new play dramaturgy and you want to learn more about it,
01:04:07
Speaker
Um, I really encourage people to find any, like, find a bunch of new play development spaces that you're comfortable in and just like, listen to people, give feedback, listen to how the room is run, you know, acknowledge what the things are that you think are working. Right. And that's where you want to be. And that's how you learn how to be a dramaturg you observe. And then you eventually put into practice the things that you are watching and learning. Other people do.
01:04:33
Speaker
You know, like our, one of my favorite programs that Working Title does is our Monday Night Development Workshops. And that's because you can literally come and listen to people give feedback for two hours. And it's so helpful because usually a lot of the questions I get asked is how do you give written notes or how do you give notes? And I'm like, well, come join us and hear people give notes. And then you will also learn how to give notes.
01:04:59
Speaker
And I mean, what I love about, you know, the dramaturgy cohort that you created. This is the third one? This is the second year of the dramaturgy intensive. Yeah. And what I love about the dramaturgy intensive is that, I mean, literally, you know, I feel like the strengths of this city is that there are a lot of phenomenal actors in this
01:05:30
Speaker
What we're missing though is that we need more dramaturgs and we need more directors. And so what was so exciting about the dramaturgy intensive is that
01:05:46
Speaker
Literally, you are creating a pool of dramaturgs for all these theaters in town to pull from. And theaters outside of town as well to pull from. And I think that, to me, that is going to be a major shift in how work is developed and produced in this city. If people take the gift and embrace it and consume it, it will really shift and transform things.
01:06:14
Speaker
Yeah, well, thank you for that. And the Dramaturgy Intensive is an annual program that I came up with during the pandemic with all my extra time. And essentially, it's 12 months, you mean twice per month.
01:06:30
Speaker
And we cover published plays and very well-known playwrights like Susan Laurie Parks, Adrienne Kennedy, Marie Irene Fortas. And then we also cover new play development process with plays that are in the middle of being written, as well as moderation and facilitation.
01:06:50
Speaker
And so it's a pretty comprehensive opportunity. And it really has been such a gift to me. I've just learned so much about my practice and I'm further developing what I do, but that a lot of it really comes down to something I'm starting to call queering dramaturgy and this idea of affirmative criticism.
01:07:18
Speaker
And in my experience over the last 20 years of working with playwrights, it makes me feel so old when I say it. It really has been that long. I think that because I really started in college. Yeah. But I think that was it was my experience of if you give somebody analytical criticism that's dry about something that they are deeply connected to,
01:07:44
Speaker
It is going to be hard for them to take it in. And so I figured out that I needed to focus on what is working rather than what is not. And that I need to dig up and excavate what is there but is not being fully explored.
01:08:08
Speaker
And through that, the playwright will realize what needs to go and what needs to stay. And I don't need to be a part of that process. And I think, you know, it's great that you mentioned, I mean, you know, just in terms of
01:08:24
Speaker
critiques and criticism, focusing on what's working, but also focusing on what the possibilities are. And giving the playwright as many possibilities as you can, as outlandish as the possibilities may be. And they don't have to use any of them. But a possibility might jog something in their mind that they can attach to as well. So I think, again, because of the nature of our culture, we want to tear things apart. Oh, right.
01:08:53
Speaker
instead of like, you know, instead of like, you know, and deconstruction has its place, but you also want to build or get people the blocks to build something up as well. You know, so I mean, affirmative criticism is the way to go. And I love this idea of, you know, querying dramaturgy. I think that's how I write that.
01:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'm working on it, you know? But this idea that we come from a wider range, there's like a wider perspective, right? More is welcome here. Queer is all encompassing, right? It is nothing that is, it is anything that is not the norm. It is so all encompassing, right? So you take that and you look at the play from that perspective. And also, if you take Eleanor Fuge's visit to a small planet, you know, kind of same vibe, right?
01:09:50
Speaker
which listeners, if you're not familiar with Eleanor Fuchs' visit to a small planet, it is one of the best documents for developing work that we have out there. Thank you to Eleanor Fuchs.
01:10:02
Speaker
We're done for this field. We'll probably do a shout out for a famous dramaturg every time. We'll do Eleanor Fuchs today. But just this idea that we get to build our own planet when we're writing a play and we get to decide what makes sense, what doesn't make sense, what notes we're gonna use, what we're not gonna use. And the idea of, I love some of the tools that we've talked about
01:10:31
Speaker
Another one that I love to recommend that I've heard you say too is this play is missing a scene. It's missing a scene between here and here. And you don't really say what that needs to be, but you just say it's missing a scene and then you leave it to them and they can make decisions about that, right? Another one that I love is move it around. Move your scenes around.
01:10:53
Speaker
Where is your focus? Whatever is at the beginning is going to be the focus. So move things and see how the story changes when you move things around. And those are some of my favorites, actually. Just really broad notes to give playwrights that allows them to make the decisions, but gives them something to work with. And also, you know, getting parents to understand that a play is never complete.
01:11:21
Speaker
You know, it's like I think a play is done when you've answered all the questions you can answer at this moment. It's done. It's done. It's it all. You know, because I do think that there's a tendency to want to make everything perfect. And none of us is Tom Soper.
01:11:41
Speaker
Um, but, but yeah, I mean, a play is never finished and that's okay. You know, I think, you know, you're done when you've answered all the questions you can answer right now. And then it's time to, you know, send it off and see if it, you know,
01:12:04
Speaker
creates his own life as a production and then move on to the next thing. But I think there's a tendency to want to workshop a play to death. I've seen plays that I love, Looser Fire, because they've been overdeveloped. So I think you need to know when to stop. And I think the big judge can call for the playwright is when this is no longer fun,
01:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think that also speaks to choosing your development experiences wisely.
Collaboration with Producers and Directors
01:12:42
Speaker
Wisely. Because it could go really wrong. And that's sort of next steps for working title in terms of how we make healthy connections with producers so that we can continue doing this work.
01:13:03
Speaker
and fun for everyone, right? Which for us so far has been collaborating with producing partners and offering a lot of dramaturgical consulting in many ways, right? And I think that producers should not be afraid to reach out to new play incubators to ask help, to ask for consulting. And we might be one of the few in the South, but we're not the only ones.
01:13:28
Speaker
And I do think for any theater company that really wants to create vibrant work, it's like, you've got to have a dramaturg in the room. You've got to have a dramaturg in the room. Even for things that are not in the play development, but for productions, have a fucking dramaturg in the room.
01:13:55
Speaker
it will add so much to that process and that experience. The challenge, of course, is that a lot of folks aren't used to dramaturgies being in the room. So there's a bit of a learning curve in terms of how to negotiate those power dynamics. But I think theater companies that consistently engage in dramaturgical practice create some of the most exciting things.
01:14:21
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I really do. Because it's also about maintaining a curiosity about the work and always being aware that there's still questions to ask and that most likely something has potentially been missed. I mean, I've had conversations with people about like a costume being like cut at the last minute because nobody realized that it was summer.
01:14:51
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, that may have been someone else's job to figure out, but like a dramaturg is there to be like, hold up. We missed something here, right? Because that the context of the work is the dramaturg's role, right? So
01:15:07
Speaker
it's not necessarily that someone else couldn't have figured that out, but the dramaturg is supposed to be there to make sure that all the pieces come together cohesively. And not just like some people might say, well, that's the director's job. I'm like, no, not really. Because the dramaturg isn't just thinking about blocking and narrative and acting and all those things. The dramaturg is thinking about the playwright is thinking about the play itself is thinking about the
01:15:33
Speaker
context of the play, the history of the play. I mean, there's just like the layers that the dramaturg is responsible for connecting. Right. Go much deeper than anyone else on the team. Yeah. And I mean, as a director, I approach directing from a dramaturgical lens. Like I do dramaturgical work first before I even, you know, and months in advance before I even, you know, get into a rehearsal room.
01:15:56
Speaker
And a lot of directors don't work like that. But even I would love to have a fucking dramaturg there because I know there's something that I missed. I know there's something
01:16:16
Speaker
How do you work with this person? Because this person literally can be your best friend in a production process if you know how to negotiate that relationship.
01:16:29
Speaker
I think a lot of it comes down to how theater is structured and the hierarchical structure just does not work for new play development. I mean, I don't think it works, period, but I'm not an expert in that other stuff, right? But what I will say about the rooms that I am in is that the director does not get to be the lead. The director is literally organizing and moderating the space, and the dramaturg is moderating the conversation.
01:16:57
Speaker
and they're both working with the playwright and it's not about them or their singular visions, right? It's about coming together in support of this baby that is being birthed, right? So in the workshops, I always have the playwright sit in the middle and the director sit on one side and the dramaturg sit on the other. And one of the reasons I do this is because the spatial relationship to me is really key.
01:17:27
Speaker
I don't want the director and the dramaturg trying to have a relationship outside the playwright and then make the playwright feel ganged up on for some reason because I've seen that happen a ton. And it's like your role is not to gang up on the playwright.
01:17:40
Speaker
No one should be attacking the playwright very good, right? If the playwright is being defensive about something, then you need to look at that. And see where the source of that comes from. Because again, it's like, I think they ganged up on the playwright because some dramaturgs and directors have an idea that in their development process is their job to fix a play. And that is not your fucking job.
01:18:06
Speaker
There is no problem, right? There is no problem. That's the key. There is no problem. Yeah, you are not a script. Only an opportunity. I'm going to say this too, because a dramaturg is not a script doctor. You're not here to fix anything. You're here to help facilitate the story that the playwright wants to tell. And I think that's a really, really important thing. And I think for some playwrights, for some directors, some dramaturgs, you've got to put your ego to the side.
01:18:37
Speaker
and realize that you are here in service of the process and in service of the playwright's work. I like to acknowledge that, like, I'm human, right? So I will have things that I want. Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone will. But I don't talk about it because it doesn't matter, right? It doesn't matter. But it's really important.
01:19:01
Speaker
Okay, Amber, this is what you would write. And that's what it is. And that's the key. And I always still playwrights this too when they get notes. I'm like, you have to, and this is the hardest thing for any playwright, and I'm just saying this because it's a hard thing for me as well. When you receive notes, you have, and this is a hard filter to develop, you have to figure out, okay, what notes are actually about the play that I'm writing?
01:19:27
Speaker
versus the notes about the play that this person wants to see. That's a great way of putting it, yes. And that is not an easy thing to do. No. But it's a skill that you have to develop as a playwright. Being able to figure out that these notes are about the play that I'm writing. That means they were in on this. Those notes, great, but that's not my play. And I think that takes a lot of practice. Which is a lot of practice. And I think that's why having
01:19:54
Speaker
groups of people that read your script and give you feedback and you can kind of vibe with what notes work for you. That is a skill that every playwright has to develop for their career and will probably never be done. But it's definitely something that I encourage playwrights. It is your job to figure out which notes are helpful to you. And it is also your job to remind yourself that you never have to take every note that's given to you, not ever. You don't have to take any if you don't want to.
01:20:24
Speaker
It's a decision you're making to take the note, you know? So follow your gut, follow your instincts, right? Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much. Oh no, thank you. We're all out of time and I don't want to take up too much more, but I just want to thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. You're such a dear friend of mine and what you do for this field is so special and I thank you so much. Thank you and I just want to encourage everybody.
01:20:54
Speaker
create the word, find your communities and just be there to support each other because none of this shit is easy. But having a community really helps make it easier. Yes, yes. Thank you for that. It is all about community. Yeah.
01:21:15
Speaker
You just listened to an episode of Table Work, how plays get made with Amber Bradshaw. A very special thank you to WTP member Minka Wiltz for our intro theme and vocals, Cup of Sea Designs for our show graphic, and you. Thank you for listening. Table Work is a podcast brought to you by Working Title Playwrights.
01:21:34
Speaker
If you like what you heard today, you can be a part of it. Support this podcast and all our initiatives by leaving us a review, following us, and consider making a tax-deductible donation to Working Title Playwrights at www.workingtidalplaywrights.com.