Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 9 with Abbey McClemont
89 Plays11 months ago
We discuss the impact of race on teacher assessments of pupil behaviour with Abbey McClemont of Buffalo University.
Her paper is here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2372966X.2023.2236539
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello. Hello. I'm Max Davey. I'm Tess Davey. Welcome to the ADHD Science podcast. Hooray, hooray. Now it's either episode nine, if you're counting from the very beginning of the podcast, please go back because we have some fascinating interviews, or it's episode three, if you're just counting the second season.
Holiday Break and Exam Preparation
00:00:26
Speaker
Is it season or series? Because we're British, so maybe it's series. I think we can go global.
00:00:31
Speaker
Okay, season. And... When is the world tour? We're having a break for Christmas slash holiday slash... Holiday season. Winterfall. Whatever you want to call it. Anyway, we're having a couple of weeks off to basically collapse and sleep. But in the meantime,
00:00:55
Speaker
Or revise for your January mocks, if you want me. Revise for your January mocks, yes. You are going to have a much harder holiday than I am. I'm mainly going to be painting little figures and trying to persuade people that the board games with me. It's a challenge, Emma, so... Increasingly. What?
Introducing Abby McClement and Her Research
00:01:13
Speaker
We have an interview with Abby McClement. Yes. About...
00:01:19
Speaker
A really nuanced subject and I'd be really interested to know what people think of how we managed it because it's quite tricky. It's about the race of the teacher and the race of the pupil within American context.
00:01:34
Speaker
and how that influences the teacher's evaluation of the pupils' behaviour. It's obviously a hugely important issue and with deep implications for the school system, for society, fascinating, fascinating work. I mean, quite preliminary work, but fascinating. So, yeah, this is one that I always like. I'd like some feedback if you want to feedback, but it would particularly be nice to get some feedback on this one because
00:02:03
Speaker
I think we did okay, but we can always do better on these issues. Yes. I'm just going to agree with what we know. Okay, fine. So, no other particular announcements before the interview. We can just crack on. Happy holidays.
00:02:21
Speaker
Hello, right. Welcome, Abby. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the AJG Science podcast. We're going to just crack on. We've done a bit of off-camera pre-recording chat so we could crack on with your questions.
Impact of Racial Identity on ADHD Assessments
00:02:36
Speaker
My first question, absolutely. So in your research, what question were you answering? Well, thank you so much for having me. So this particular study was about
00:02:48
Speaker
how racial identity plays a role in teachers' assessment of students' ADHD. So we know from previous research that teachers are usually the first to notice a child's ADHD symptoms, and upwards of 80% of psychologists use these ratings, the teachers' ratings, when making ADHD diagnoses or determining if a student is eligible for school services.
00:03:17
Speaker
So it's obviously very important for teacher report to be unbiased and accurate, but research has also shown that sometimes teachers' ratings may be different for students of different racial backgrounds.
00:03:32
Speaker
So for example, studies have found that there's this over-identification of ADHD symptoms among black students compared to white students. So we knew that this to be true, but in looking at the previous research, we found this big limitation. And many of these studies, only the students race was reported.
00:03:56
Speaker
and the teacher's race was unknown. So without knowing the teacher's race, there's only part of the equation is known there, right? So it doesn't explain how potentially the teacher's identity could have played a role in their assessment. So really the question we were trying to answer was to look at how the teacher's race and the student's race may play a role in assessment of ADHD and
00:04:25
Speaker
to see whether this racial match or what we called racial congruence, so being that the teacher and the student were of the same or different race, if that had any influence on teachers' assessments of the student's ADHD. So that's fascinating. Just to kind of dig in a little bit, why do we think that
00:04:51
Speaker
ADHD symptoms in black students are over identified. And why did you use the word identified rather than diagnosed? Yes, absolutely. So that second part of the question, I'll start there with, it's a pretty simple thing that is also quite complex because
00:05:10
Speaker
we find that for black students compared to white students in particular, there's an over-identification of ADHD symptoms, but then when you look at the diagnostic breakdown by race, that black individuals in particular are less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. So it doesn't make sense why a black student would be more likely to show these
00:05:37
Speaker
ADHD symptoms in school and then in turn, in the greater scheme of things, be less likely to actually be diagnosed compared to white students. So that's why we were really focused on, you know, what is it there? Why are the teachers finding or at least reporting greater ADHD symptoms among these students? And there's a number of possible explanations and
Exploring Racial Biases in ADHD Diagnosis
00:06:04
Speaker
in looking at the prior research and combining the research in our study because it was a systematic review, we were able to come to a few conclusions or possible explanations for why this is. So one might be simply related to the assessment methods that are being used. So although there has been years and years of research on these ADHD assessments,
00:06:31
Speaker
In particular, our study looked at the Vanderbilt, the Connors, some of them really commonly use measures in the United States. These measures have been found to have a disproportionate number of students from minoritized racial groups being categorized as ADHD. So in other words, the measures themselves might be racially biased.
00:06:58
Speaker
Another reason apart from the measures could be due to some implicit biases. So I want to be careful when I say this in that I'm not blaming teachers. I'm not saying that there was an intentional effort to skew results or anything like that. Implicit biases are related to those unconscious things. So those unconscious biases that we all have
00:07:26
Speaker
based on our own upbringing or our own social norms. There's a possibility that teachers implicit biases towards students of different racial groups could have unconsciously affected their results. Then a third potential explanation is that simply there might be a lack of training or understanding on ADHD.
00:07:56
Speaker
Teachers, at least here in the United States, are not always required to have training on mental illness, specifically on ADHD. It may have just been a lack of understanding of how ADHD presents in different students, particularly
00:08:18
Speaker
when you consider cultural variables, how ADHD might look in a child from one culture compared to another based on their cultural norms. So really it could be a bunch of things. It's possible that it's the measure itself. It's also possible that some implicit biases, attitudes, and lack of understanding on ADHD could all explain why this is happening.
00:08:47
Speaker
Do you think that there's a role for social class or parental income, I suppose, would be how you'd measure that?
00:08:54
Speaker
would children from poorer families show more ADHD behaviors, but not necessarily get the ADHD diagnosis and maybe discuss in a minute why that might be
Social Class and Access to ADHD Diagnoses
00:09:05
Speaker
a different thing? Good question. Thank you. It is a good question. And my answer is that possibly and probably there is some link there. And I think that would go
00:09:22
Speaker
hand in hand with just the differences in how children are raised, whether that is due to lower income or whether that is growing up in a city or a rural area. All of these social variables could absolutely play a role in how a child presents differently, I guess, compared to their peers who had a different upbringing. So I think it's absolutely possible that that
00:10:11
Speaker
In the UK, it's clearly to do with, for some reason, even though we have the NHS, different access to assessment. There is still this disproportion of access to assessment. And I'm sure that's a factor in the American context. Yes, absolutely. That's why, you know,
00:10:12
Speaker
could be a contributing factor as well.
00:10:31
Speaker
the rates of symptoms usually will come from the school and where most children are in school, if not all children are expected to be going to school here. So they have access in that way to their teachers or the psychologists there who can identify the symptoms. But the same can't be said for all of those students having access to
00:10:58
Speaker
outside providers who can actually make those diagnoses. So yes, absolutely. I think if the child needs a diagnosis of ADHD or is suspected to have ADHD and the school recommends that they get diagnosed, that has to be done by an outside provider. That usually costs money and sometimes quite a bit of money and it's just
00:11:24
Speaker
you know, not feasible for certain families. Yes, and just to hammer home the point, we're not supposed to charge people. It's not supposed to, in the UK, cost money to get an ADHD diagnosis. No, but because of the long, long, long wait line that there is,
00:11:48
Speaker
with the NHS, if people need an ADHD diagnosis in order to get the medication that they need to do well in school, then they often do end up paying for private stuff. They do indeed. So there is still that gap, even though the whole point of the NHS is to... It shouldn't be there, but the sad fact is that it is. And there's a lot of areas actually, just slight tangent, but there's a lot of areas where even the private providers have now closed their waiting lists. It's just very, very difficult to get an assessment at all.
00:12:17
Speaker
If we're looking at the subconscious biases specifically, it interests me because when you mentioned that there was a difference, my instinct was that maybe these teachers were neglecting students of colour because of the bias. But why do you think it is that that would cause them to pay more attention to the symptoms? Yeah, you know, I
00:12:42
Speaker
I think it's, I don't know necessarily if they're paying more attention or if they are more aware of it, but something is causing them, you're right, to report more greater symptoms. I think it goes back to this lack of potential understanding of other cultures and other backgrounds.
00:13:07
Speaker
For example, in the context of this study, teachers might make inaccurate judgments of a child's behavior because that child is of a different race than their own. And that might be because of some sort of implicit bias that they have. So we know from research that teachers tend to rate
00:13:29
Speaker
black students in particular as more disruptive than white students. And we also know that the majority of teachers in the United States are white, right? So there's something in there to be said about a potential lack of understanding of why students behave the way they do. And that's where this implicit bias comes in. It might just unconsciously, teachers hold these expectations for students,
00:13:59
Speaker
and unconsciously might be applying their rules and their expectations to students differently based on the student's race. And are maybe more likely to say that students who do not share their same race
00:14:16
Speaker
have greater ADHD symptoms, which was a big finding that we identified here. I was going to say this is a perfect opportunity to go to our second question. Our second question, absolutely. So what did you find in your research?
Systematic Review Findings on Racial Match and ADHD
00:14:30
Speaker
Yeah. So I'll back up a little and explain that this study was a systematic review. So what that means is we
00:14:39
Speaker
we're analyzing and combining results from other studies to answer our question about racial bias. And it involves, as the name suggests, a very systematic process of searching through thousands of articles that were published, sifting through these studies, identifying the studies that were relevant to our research question,
00:15:06
Speaker
and eventually coming down to about 10 studies that actually answered our question. And we found that in these 10 studies, although everyone reported on the student's racial identity as well as the teacher's, only four of those studies actually analyzed whether there were differences in ADHD ratings by the teacher's race. So again, this is a huge,
00:15:35
Speaker
limitation in the research that most studies are just ignoring how the raider or in this case, the teacher, their identity might play a role in the assessment of students. But when we looked at those four studies in particular, we found that the majority, so three of these studies found that racial match, so this congruence, this match between teacher and student led to lower ADHD ratings.
00:16:05
Speaker
This means that teachers were more likely to rate students as having lower ADHD symptoms if those students had their same racial background. If the students did not have their same race, they rated those students and higher in ADHD symptoms. So this was true for three of these four studies.
00:16:26
Speaker
And when we looked at the other studies, the other that were included in our review but did not examine the teacher's race, we found differences in teacher's ratings again by student race. So eight of nine of these studies found that teachers had higher levels of ADHD symptoms for black and Latinx students compared to white students.
00:16:54
Speaker
It was especially true for black students compared to white students and especially for hyperactive symptoms compared to inattentive symptoms. So really to, I guess to summarize all of that, there's a big limitation and the research we need to know more about how teachers, teachers race and their background and their training and their understanding of other races and cultures
00:17:21
Speaker
can play a role in their accurate assessments of ADHD. But these findings certainly do show how important and unbiased and accurate assessment can be.
00:17:37
Speaker
I just want... have you got anything to ask? Not particularly. That is really interesting and that's... You're just going to process it. Yeah, I'm just thinking about it. That's all right. You seem like you do. I do, yes. Go on then. How could you tell? I'm just sort of taking that in really. We may need to go over the ground a couple of times, but are you implying that we talk about
00:18:05
Speaker
black, white, as if there are only two races. And clearly there aren't, but actually it's probably helpful just to get my head right to pretend for a moment that there are only two. Just for a moment, Tess, don't worry. So would a black teacher rate a white, be more likely to rate a white pupil as more hyperactive than a white teacher? That's fascinating.
00:18:33
Speaker
I can, given that there were only four studies that we were able to find of all the published research out there that basically answered that question, I can say that three of those studies would answer yes to that. Three of those studies did show that regardless of what the race of the teacher or the student was, it was that match that made the difference.
00:19:03
Speaker
a teacher of a certain race would rate higher ADHD symptoms for any students that did not share that same race. But that was only three of those 3,000 studies that we found out there. So we definitely need more information to make a conclusion on that. And we can't say for sure, but that is what a few of those studies did indicate.
00:19:33
Speaker
Are they, obviously it's very difficult to kind of compress years of work and systematic kind of analysis into a kind of quick podcast reply, but were they big studies? Were they good? I mean, what was the sort of number of people that were looked at in these studies? Are we talking about large surveys? Are we talking about pilots? What are we talking about in terms of the size and scale of these studies?
00:20:03
Speaker
Yes. When we did our review, we wanted to be inclusive so that we weren't going to miss any studies that may have been published, but we also wanted to be selective and only choose studies that met a certain criteria. In order to make sure that these were, like you say, good studies, valid studies and that we can trust the results,
00:20:28
Speaker
We established a number of criteria before actually going in and reading the studies. We had to make sure that the studies, for example, used a validated assessment measure. We had to make sure that the students were being assessed for ADHD or were already diagnosed with ADHD.
00:20:53
Speaker
Another thing we wanted to make sure was that it was a sample of students from a school and not a clinic. Obviously we were interested in teachers in this case. So we wanted school-based samples. So then there were a few other criteria that we needed to ensure before actually including any of the studies in our review. So I can say, you know, based on the criteria that we used, I do feel strongly that these studies used
00:21:24
Speaker
pretty, you know. Yeah, that was some. But the sample size did vary quite a bit. So that's another, it is a limitation. The sample size ranged quite a bit. The age of the students also ranged a bit. And the number of teachers range. So there were a lot, you know, there, it was hard to draw conclusions.
00:21:49
Speaker
you know, very specific conclusion since all the studies were quite different. Because it's quite difficult, it's quite, I mean, again, you're doing, you can, with a systematic review, you can only deal with what you have, what goes in, you know, shit in, shit out, I suppose, but this is good stuff in, good stuff out in your case. But there's quite a big difference, isn't there, between looking at the ADHD symptoms of a
00:22:14
Speaker
you know, five-year-old bouncing around the schoolyard where, you know, perhaps the different, you know, we know that different people from different racial backgrounds physically develop at slightly different rates. It's subtle, but they can develop at slightly different rates and have, you know, slightly different sizes at different rates. So, you know, children from the Asian subcontinent, Indian subcontinent may be a bit smaller, whereas children from Africa may be a bit bigger. At that young age, that might be a factor. And all of these things are margins, aren't they?
00:22:43
Speaker
Whereas by 15, that's physicality is much less important. It's much more about, well, I think it's a lot to do with the mental health of the young person as to how disruptive they are and therefore how much they stand out in the classroom. But you might have a different view on that. Yeah. I think it just goes to show, you're right, it's hard to make these generalizations based on very different samples.
00:23:10
Speaker
Even we did include two studies in our review which used a large sample of students from the norming group that was based on, so there was two studies basically conducted by DuPaul and colleagues and they were looking at the norming group for one of their new ADHD assessment measures. So technically- The norming group sounds like the most boring club you could ever-
00:23:41
Speaker
the norming group, not the Norman group. The Norman group, the Norman group are the people that came over in 2010, 66 in Concord, England. Oh, I was thinking like Simon and Sam. No, no. People will not know Simon and Sam. Sorry, no. Yeah, so basically the students that were used to make the norms for this, for this measure. Okay, we did things really, don't worry.
00:24:06
Speaker
Well, even in those two studies, the results were not exactly the same either. So I guess it just goes to show that, yes, it's definitely hard to make conclusions. There's all these other factors at play, like you mentioned, a small but potentially important factor of size or the energy level of students. All of these things absolutely do play a role in how students are perceived by their teachers.
00:24:35
Speaker
So you mentioned that there was, the studies did vary a lot with the age of their sample. Did you get a chance to look at the, not in a very like, scientific way, but just to have a quick little look at what age did to the results? You know, we didn't just because of how small our sample was, you know, it, on one hand, it was a big limitation that we could only use 10 studies, like that was
00:25:05
Speaker
disappointing. And then on the other, it really highlighted our point of we need more research on this. So the problem with only having 10 studies is that we couldn't do any
00:25:19
Speaker
really in-depth analyses. And also we couldn't do any quantitative analyses because all of these 10 studies had very different methods. So there wasn't a way to combine. You can't just mash it all together because it's like two different kind of... Well, you can't take an average of its words, you know.
00:25:40
Speaker
That's a really, that's a lovely phrase. I love that. Oh, okay. Right. It wouldn't, it really also would have ignored a lot of important differences between the studies if we tried to combine, you know, in that way. But yeah, so no, I wish I had more findings on specifics with regards to age, but again, just shows an important area in need of, need of more research.
Adultification Bias in ADHD Symptom Reporting
00:26:04
Speaker
Did you have anything else before the third question, Tess? OK, so I do. So one thing I was wondering about is just because we've been looking at it in sociology, do you think there's a link between just again specifically looking at African-American students, but do you think there's a link with adultification, which is where
00:26:24
Speaker
Go on. Young black people are seen as like being more mature than their peers, even though they are literally the same age. And so I'm assuming maybe in this case, their symptoms are more paid attention to because they can't be dismissed as just like, you know, they're just a kid. Yes, because subconsciously, they're not viewed as a kid. Yes, yes.
00:26:48
Speaker
I love that you brought that up. So I'm just saying yes because I understand the concept, but what do you think about that as a vehicle for some of this bias? I think absolutely. I played around with that, not played around, but we definitely discussed that in our meetings when we were writing this paper as the team.
00:27:09
Speaker
We discussed that idea. We also talked about similar idea of how Black students may show hidden resilience. So there's these factors like leadership, which comes out in different ways in different students. And for Black students in particular, showing leadership may look different. And in a teacher's eyes, it's actually been shown to look
00:27:39
Speaker
more disruptive compared to a white student. So it's this hidden resilience, you're right, this adultification. These factors absolutely play a role in how these students are viewed and somewhat unfairly based on the social standards of teachers who don't share that same race.
00:28:09
Speaker
Top sociology tests. Yes. She can just give me the A now. That's not how exams work. I wish it was. Next question. Okay. Well, yes. Okay. Next question. What does this mean for people working with ADHD people? So this could be the clinicians that- All the teachers as well. All the teachers specifically. Yeah. What is all this?
00:28:36
Speaker
Obviously with the big caveat, these are small studies. We need to do more. Fine. That's a caveat because of the whole thing. But what does this make you think that you should be, people should be thinking about when they're evaluating students? Yes, definitely. So I think there's a lot of important takeaways. I think potentially the most obvious takeaway is to be absolutely cautious and, you know,
00:29:03
Speaker
exercise caution when you're interpreting an assessment of ADHD among children, right? So especially for non-white students, it's so important for clinicians to make sure they're doing their due diligence, so to speak, and gathering information from multiple sources, right? Considering how students behave in different contexts and using culturally responsive assessment techniques. So that would be
00:29:31
Speaker
you know, considering all of the potential cultural variables or social variables, like we've already mentioned, the adultification, the, you know, just teacher's different understanding of different cultures, all of these variables and how those might play a role in why a student is perceived to behave the way they do. I think it's also important to include students if it's appropriate,
00:29:57
Speaker
So to use their perspective on what their strengths are and what their areas of need are and to, you know, on a broader level for anybody engaging in work with kids with ADHD to
00:30:14
Speaker
to self-reflect and to sort of do the work to develop your own awareness of how your identity might play a role in your work and to think deeply about implicit biases or attitudes that you might not be consciously aware of because we all have them. It's not something specific to teachers, it's to everyone. We all have these biases that are
00:30:41
Speaker
that are based on our upbringing and our experiences. So it's so important to reflect on these, consider other cultures and what you know about these other cultures and what your areas in need of more knowledge are, and to use that knowledge to be able to help diverse students and not just students who you are more familiar with. Yeah, so just to draw out the obvious,
00:31:11
Speaker
point again, this has seemed much of my job, because you make these brilliant points. I think we just I'm just trying to hammer them home, because there's so much to cover. But I suppose it's, it's it's if you have a cultural implicit and cultural understanding of a child, then when they are kind of being what you might call pre disruptive behavior that might become disruptive, but is it doesn't, because you understand that child at some level, if you don't have a cultural understanding of the way that child expresses
00:31:39
Speaker
positive emotion or excitement or any of these things or how they do and like you said leadership if you don't have that cultural understanding then there will be that friction at some level and therefore disruption will result. I think that's quite a powerful way to think about again we don't know if it's the whole thing the whole story here but that may be a powerful way of thinking about some of these
00:32:03
Speaker
the way that these biases actually work or these mechanisms of, you know, teachers finding different pupils more or less disruptive that may be quite a powerful, you know, kind of vehicle for it. Yes, good. Okay, fine. Once again, I've managed to get everyone. I'm speechless. I've worn you all down. No, I did have another question. Go on.
00:32:27
Speaker
Okay. Oh, go ahead. If you thought the last one was nerdy, this just strap in everyone. Unbuckling up. Now, I mean, you mentioned earlier things like the rating scales, like the Vanderbilt and the Connors. Now, the Connors is the kind of one that rules the roost in the UK. That rang a bell for me. Yeah, you did. Yes. You have had some contact with Connors. You did one back in the day. And I also have partially executed one. Okay.
00:32:58
Speaker
We might cut it a little bit, I don't know. But they, when you get the results, you correct the results for the student's gender and the student's age. Should you be correcting these results for the student's race? Because I don't think they do. And in which case, should you be correct, at some point, will we be correcting them for both the teacher and the student's race?
00:33:27
Speaker
That's so interesting. You're right. That's a great point here. And one of the studies in our systematic review did make that recommendation. They said we should absolutely have separate norms for students based on their race. I hesitate to come to a conclusion on that because of just knowing, you know, racist
00:33:55
Speaker
ultimately a social construct. So the differences that we're seeing on these rating scales are not true behavioral differences between kids of different races. It's the way that we apply the standards of how we individually think a child should behave to different kids. So we've been talking about all these other variables and things that might get in the way of us
00:34:25
Speaker
accurately and performing unbiased assessments, all of those things are what's so important to me. And I think that if applying or having different norms for different racial groups on these ADHD measures could, unfortunately,
00:34:48
Speaker
imply that there are actual differences that we should be aware of. And I don't believe that. That's a dangerous path to go down, isn't it? Yeah. It kind of takes away from the cultural aspect of it. No, that's a good point. Shall we go to the fourth question? Yes. So what does this mean for ADHD people themselves?
00:35:11
Speaker
So I guess it's hard to say for the ADHD people in my study who were children because a lot of them may not have even known they have ADHD yet or may not have been known that they were being assessed. But I think broadening the results to just ADHD people in general or kids with ADHD, I guess it's
00:35:39
Speaker
One takeaway might be to learn about your ADHD, learn how it impacts you, how it might make your life
00:35:52
Speaker
better how you might have these superpowers, as I like to say, associated with ADHD and also how it might give you some challenges and to be your own advocate, right? Because these results simply show that not everybody understands ADHD. Not everybody understands how it's going to impact a child and there might be a
00:36:16
Speaker
you know, adults in children's lives, even their teachers who don't really understand what that child needs. So I think it's really important for early on for
00:36:27
Speaker
parents especially to help their child understand all there is to know about ADHD so that their child can learn to advocate for themselves, find the support that they need, whether that's support at school or outside therapy, and to really normalize that it's okay to need this extra support
Advocacy for ADHD Individuals
00:36:48
Speaker
Of course, I want to say it's not all the responsibility of a child to find their support, right? It's on the adults as well. And that's why these findings are really relevant to the people who work with kids with ADHD. But I do think that finding adults who understand ADHD and who understand the child can go a really long way in helping that child
00:37:17
Speaker
not only feel seen and heard, but actually be supported at school. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's very hard to add to that, really. I mean, I have no questions. I am done. That's absolutely fine. Well, OK. I mean, I think I think that was a that's a lovely kind of encapsulation. So the last question is.
Future Directions in ADHD Research
00:37:45
Speaker
What's your next question? What is your next question, Abby? What do you want to research next? Yeah, so I will certainly continue my ADHD research. Whether it comes from me or others, I truly hope that there's more research on recommendations for making more equitable
00:38:06
Speaker
and unbiased ADHD assessments. For me, this was my first systematic review and the majority of my research has been more interventional and more applied research. I love my clinical work with kids and actually taking what I learned from the research and applying it to my work with children with ADHD. So for example, I recently conducted my dissertation
00:38:34
Speaker
on a cognitive behavioral intervention for a group of students with ADHD. It was the first trial of this program in the United States. It was actually originated in Iceland. It was exciting to find that after five weeks in the program, there were significant improvements.
00:38:57
Speaker
in these children and their ADHD symptoms and their social skills and their emotion regulation. So doing this intervention work is where I see my future and my next research projects. And I'd also love to go inspired by this study to offer some trainings for teachers on ADHD and how culture may play a role in children's ADHD presentations. I think there's a big need for that.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yeah. That sounds lovely. Amazing stuff. And when your work, your dissertation work, is that going to publish? Is that going to be, are we going to see that popping up on my Google alert? I hope soon it's in the works right now. It's currently ready for submitting to a journal. So hopefully very soon it will be published and you can take a look.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah, we will. And actually let us know because I really want to do something about cognitive behavioral approaches because the evidence base says, well, you will know better than me isn't great. And, and it's the sort of thing that people ask about a lot. And we have to say, we can't recommend it because x. So that's, yeah, we definitely talking about that when you have some data for us. We can do that.
00:40:17
Speaker
Fabulous. Well, Abby, thank you so much. Thank you. You've been incredible. Incredible. Yes, absolutely. You kind of floored us. It's not the evening and we're kind of tired and you're like, I'm going to be really, really kind of eloquent and concise. And we're like, oh, who wants some questions? Anyway, well done. I think it's one of those ones where the guest has definitely won the episode.
00:40:40
Speaker
I feel like that's my solution. No, not at all. All right. Well, anyway. I really appreciate your time and all of your questions. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. All right. Welcome back. Welcome back. Well, they didn't leave. We did.
00:40:59
Speaker
I suppose that's right. Okay, well, I hope you enjoyed the episode. We will be back after Christmas, slash New Year. After Christmas, if you will. After Christmas, which is a neglected gem of Christmas filmmaking. Featuring a man that looks like Paul Hollywood, which I find quite amusing. It's not as good as Muppets Christmas Carol, which we watched last night as a family. I love that movie, sorry.
00:41:21
Speaker
Sorry about that guys. So anyway. I hope the podcast was alright. Again, please give us feedback. We'd love to hear from all of you, lovely audience. But in the meantime, have a lovely holiday and we'll speak to you soon. Enjoy your Winterville. Bye!
00:41:40
Speaker
Editor Max here just coming in at the end to point out that we have completely failed to tell you what Abby's job is and where her research was done. It was done at SUNY University at Buffalo. She is a psychologist by trade and is currently a doctoral intern at the Anxiety Center in Manhattan.
00:42:03
Speaker
She didn't provide any social media, probably sensibly, but we will post a copy of her paper on the show notes. Anyway, so for the fifth or sixth time, Merry Christmas, and we'll see you soon.