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Episode 29 with Robin Ince
588 Plays1 month ago
Delighted to welcome Robin Ince, legendary comedian and lovely man, to the pod.
Robin's new book, Normally Weird and Weirdly Normal, is out today!!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to ADHD Science Podcast and Guest Appearance
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello, welcome to the ADHD Science Podcast. I'm your host, Max Davey. A bit of an odd intro because Tess is not here and we've not been able to literally be in the same building this week in order to record an intro. But she says hi.
00:00:22
Speaker
So this might be an episode that more than usual of you um listen to. So I will explain a bit about the podcast at the end if you're interested.
Introducing Robin Ince and Neurodiversity Discussions
00:00:32
Speaker
um But without further ado, we have a legendary guest today.
00:00:37
Speaker
it is none other than the... um don't want to overuse the ah to word legendary, but he really is. He's an absolutely... cornerstone of the UK comedy scene, deeply interested in science, in politics, in people.
00:00:53
Speaker
um He is of course Robin Ince, comedian, host of the Infinite Monkey Cage and general all-round good egg. He's written a book about neurodiversity um and basically we are very very lucky to have him on.
00:01:08
Speaker
The book is not, the title is not mentioned in the interview, the interview is in a very Robin Ince way kind of goes off. um It's called Normally Weird and Weirdly Normal. it's on the It's out on the day that this comes out, the 1st of May.
00:01:23
Speaker
And I love it. I thought it was a wonderful, warm, inclusive, welcoming book. um So I was ah really pleased, doubly pleased to to meet Robin, who's someone I've admired for some time. Anyway, enough.
00:01:37
Speaker
On with the show. Okay, so welcome. We are very excited to ah welcome someone who's not a researcher, but is that a comedian. makes it needs to sound like we're not excited to welcome researchers. Oh, we've got one of those researchers. are all these researchers with their science and their papers.
00:01:57
Speaker
We have a comedian and um host of a ah science podcast that perhaps... has a few more downloads than ours. Just a couple. The Infinite Monkey Cage. Welcome, Robin Ince, to the podcast.
00:02:08
Speaker
Thanks very much for having me on I suppose rather than be a researcher, then I could be that wonderful thing that Ken Campbell, who is a great autodidact, don't know if you know, wonderful, started the Science Fiction Theatre in Liverpool and stuff like that.
00:02:20
Speaker
And he would always say, welcome, searchers, at the beginning of shows. We're researchers and they're researchers. I see. So welcome, wonderful searcher. Welcome, searchers. Yeah, I mean, I think although your book is not a research book, you have been searching.
Critique and Empathy in ADHD Literature
00:02:40
Speaker
it is ah It is a product of searching, isn't it? It really is. I mean, one of the things that I was glad that some of the people I've spoken to who read it early... said that they were glad to find a book that wasn't... it like I read a book recently about ADHD, which was all about, so what causes ADHD and this and that? and And I felt it was not a very useful book because it wasn't about the lived experience of neurodivergence. And I think that's that's one of the problems with quite a few of the con books is, you know, I wanted to make this a book of the stories of existence,
00:03:14
Speaker
to connect with people because i mean, some of the stuff like i I had to read some of age of diagnosis, which I did not enjoy at all, which you oh right i' wanted to talk to you about that what one of one of those books where, you know, the guardian love it. Cause it's quite a pearl clutching kind of book. And Oh, but I'm just very worried that too many people are now being blah, blah, blah.
00:03:37
Speaker
and And one of the things that really annoyed me about that book was not only that it was it was kind of of a very medical version of events, which I think lacked a huge amount of empathy. Because at one point, the there's um the the author says...
00:03:51
Speaker
um ah admittedly, anecdotally, this is, by the way, not just anecdotally, I worry that ah most people who are diagnosed with ADHD, that their life does not palpably improve.
00:04:04
Speaker
Then continues to say, ah though many of them say they're much happier now. yeah right First of all, I consider that a palpable change in existence.
00:04:15
Speaker
And then it continues to say that many of them gave up their jobs or gave up education. Now, again, that's framed as a negative because I think from the status quo perspective, anything which does not adhere to the thin line of this is what is most useful for society.
00:04:32
Speaker
You keep calm and you carry on. And I just felt it was very much of that kind of thing. So, you know, ah it was it I'm glad that the book is coming out now just in terms of hopefully being a reaction against that viewpoint.
00:04:45
Speaker
Yeah. So just to be clear to the the listeners who might not have been, and there was ah quite a big fuss a few weeks ago about but this book, The Age of Diagnosis by Susanne O'Sullivan, who is a neurologist in London and has sort of, i have to admit, i haven't I haven't read the book, but I'm aware of the and and we're very aware of the literature around diagnosis of autism, a diagnosis of ADHD and autism.
00:05:09
Speaker
um And she's kind of formed this idea that there's far too many people being diagnosed now. and and And yes, this sort of anecdotal, oh, it's made them worse, but but it's not clear that there's any evidence that diagnosis makes people worse.
Understanding and Acceptance of ADHD
00:05:22
Speaker
Well, all I can say is that from the, I mean, I've interviewed hundreds of people for for this book. and ah And also I meet people. Almost every day if I'm doing a gig, I end up in a conversation with sometimes young people, teenagers who are just going through diagnosis. Sometimes I'll meet, um like when I was doing a gig the other day, there was a woman there in her early 70s who had just found out or in the last two years had found out about ah or you know being autistic.
00:05:51
Speaker
And Everyone that I meet, with very rare exceptions, is changed for the better. And those who it's not for the better, and this a very small group of people, um ah so are basically still battling with some of the same things. So it's not as if it's made their life worse, but it has brought those problems.
00:06:13
Speaker
ah and And I just find that to me, a lot of the people who are, because i also know there are people in the autistic community who go, well, these people aren't autistic enough. Sometimes you get a small number of people who have that attitude.
00:06:25
Speaker
um And I think this problem of going, ah well, if you're not bothering society, then just shut up and get on with it. It's only of interest if you're autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, whatever it might be, if that's getting in the way.
00:06:45
Speaker
of the process, the post-industrial process of living or whatever, then we have to deal with it. But as long as you're not getting in my way with your mental state, well, then just shut up and don't look into it. And I think, you know, to remove the enormous amount of struggle.
00:07:00
Speaker
So we've gone in very deep straight away. ah It's because I've had a second. Yeah, I know. But I do... That's fine. We love it. It's good. When I wrote a book called I'm a Joke and So Are You, which was kind of the first book I wrote, which had, you know, some stuff about mental health in it. And... um ah That was a real, one of the big changes. I've always been quite open when I do gigs, so I'm always available for people to talk to me or ah or whatever. you know I'm not someone who hides in the dressing room or or doesn't yeah meet the audience afterwards. um After I wrote that book in particular, the number of people that I realised were the moment they left their front door
00:07:36
Speaker
They were you know just girding their loins. They were putting their armor on. They were trying to get through. And of course, very often behind the door as well, they're still fighting. But at the moment they go out into the world, then the the the the battle to create the carapace of normality, of what is considered to be normality, was exhausting for them and incredibly destructive, not merely for them, but quite often for, it can also be for their friends or partners or those around them.
00:08:06
Speaker
yeah and I think you know one of the things that well I don't know what to go with that because I
Societal Expectations and Neurodivergence
00:08:13
Speaker
mean one of the things that's kind of one of the most moving parts of the book for me was when you talked about how difficult it is for your wife for your partner and how difficult it has been um and I think you know that's that's something that I definitely kind of related to pretty pretty hard and it is difficult isn't it because there's you know We've got to adjust.
00:08:36
Speaker
we've We unmask and we are our true genuine selves, but our true genuine selves are also extremely frustrating for the people around us.
00:08:48
Speaker
So there is that balance and there is that balance of... if you would If you ask other people to adjust, well, to what extent do you... do you manage How do you manage it when there's different adjustments that are perhaps conflict? and And, you know, one person likes things to be... You talked about meetings and how, you know, meetings...
00:09:06
Speaker
should be faster. And there was one meeting where you had three ideas and they're like we can only get through one. And you're like, well, that would take me five minutes to do all three. um and but But of course, i sort of, I talked, actually talked to my wife recently about maybe um we should make the meetings at work faster. And she's like, well, some people need them to be slower because they need more processing time. So so it is, anyway, I'm not i'm not disagreeing and and we should be adjusting and unmasking, so unmasking and then asking the world to adjust.
00:09:34
Speaker
But there is that, pushback isn't there there is that counter current of well what about the other people around us well i think one of the big things is that that we're expected to entirely change this is not necessarily about my relationship by the way i mean generally in the world that there is an expectation of a lot of people that they must follow exactly the rules so it's like any change it's like you know much of what we're seeing about sex and gender where some of the stuff that is being used, some of the aggression, for instance, towards trans people, non-binary people, I see that as a quite similar because it's like actually these changes, one, these humans have always existed. This this way of being human has always existed.
00:10:20
Speaker
And two, people, it's it's it's the old thing about the white guy, isn't it? Where the you know the the the old straight white guy who sees the you know the loss of privilege to be a loss of equality.
00:10:33
Speaker
and And I think that's what we're battling with all the time. You know at the moment in America, and I think we're going to see it in the UK, we're returning to a world of white supremacy and of male supremacy and all of these things, which I i think are deeply worrying. And yet the distraction is on these these really things which will be very minor inconveniences, if indeed inconveniences at all.
00:10:57
Speaker
to the rest of the world. And I think those distractions, I think, you know, I think I might mention it in the book. I can't remember if i do, but you know, that that idea of, I think a lot of people do want a, they they want a binary world.
00:11:07
Speaker
They want a black and white world. Are you a man? Are you a woman? Is your brain working properly? Is your brain working wrongly? And that is, it's it's a yes, no scenario.
00:11:20
Speaker
Whereas I think, you know, the truth is that without a spectrum, you have a very bland world. And, yeah you know, I think some people, I put up a thing today because I just from reminded of it, where ah an autistic woman that I was talking to, when she first started to really think, I think I may well be autistic, she went to a doctor.
00:11:39
Speaker
And the doctor said, why do you want to know? You know there's no cure. Now, I think that that was a shocking thing, to me, and I know it's quite a regular thing for people's experience, which is no one's looking for a cure.
00:11:54
Speaker
We're looking for a better existence. We're looking to understand ourselves. And by understanding ourselves, we understand other people's minds as well. But that idea of I mean, to imagine a world without neurodivergent people is, you know, very obviously you you lose a huge amount of science.
00:12:12
Speaker
You lose a huge amount of mathematics. The art galleries are pretty much empty. The bands are only creating three different songs, which I'm sure, you know, everything you think the status quo are not not a neurotypical and pretty much everyone else isn't?
00:12:27
Speaker
yeah and And I think that's why people go, how come so many people in the arts, for instance, and I think it's true also in science, how come so many of those people are neurodivergent? And you go, well, because if the very starting point, I don't know for the two of you, I'd be interested interested to know, but nothing is taken as read, I think, in most neurodivergent minds that I know.
00:12:49
Speaker
So for autistic people, for ADHD people, if someone says, go and do that, your mind immediately goes, why are we doing that?
Diversity and Intersectionality in Arts and Science
00:12:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Or you want to get into so much trouble, Robin.
00:13:01
Speaker
Yeah. and and And sometimes we, you know, a lot of the time we keep it in, but we're always we go, why is no one questioning this stuff? And I think that, again, is why you get people like Greg Toonbury, you know, who is...
00:13:13
Speaker
And she, i think, being an autistic person will have greatly enhanced her belief in justice. Because she's looking at the world and she's saying, well, hang on a minute.
00:13:26
Speaker
Why is it like that? Why are the people of Gaza getting treated in that way? And why are the government so quiet? Why is it different if it's Ukraine? Why is it yeah all of those different things and the climate change stuff? And and my my friend, I think I did mention the book, Mari, who runs a fantastic...
00:13:41
Speaker
activist bookshop in Edinburgh, um Lighthouse Books, she said she always finds, sometimes she'll be on a protest and she'll go, oh why are those pale, stale males there? Obviously, and she doesn't actually say that, but I know that is the terminology. As a pale, stale male, that's not offensive to me at all.
00:13:59
Speaker
And then she says, nearly always it will turn out that person is, you know, ADHD or autistic. Yeah. ah because And I think it's a great advantage for, for you know, as a man ah with a lot of privilege, I think that I've been given a ah a window to look at the world by not fitting in, even though I have all the advantages to fit in, that I would never want to lose.
00:14:28
Speaker
At no point would I want to look at my bookshelves and mainly see books by Jeremy Clarkson.
00:14:35
Speaker
Just checking the bookshelf? No, we're fine. You're all right. There's no Clarkson. No. that bit This bookshelf over there is entirely given over to psychotherapy books. So don't worry.
00:14:47
Speaker
You're fine. Quite frankly, the opposite. Yeah, quite opposite. um Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. i think I think one of the things that I keep coming back to is that neurodivergence is really important as a form of diversity, but i don't think we should treat it in isolation. I know we're getting really deep really quickly and we're going to kind of pull back and do some more basic stuff in a minute. But the new because I really feel bad.
00:15:11
Speaker
One of the problems I think sometimes happens with the neurodiversity movement is that we're putting our hands up often as a lot of quite privileged people and saying, yeah, we've got this diversity as well. And we can do that, but only if we're really mindful of the i mean intersectionality but with yeah trans people, with poverty, with race. if we're not If we don't we're not mindful of how this is one diversity among among many, which is why I make the connection as well between gender diversity and neurodiversity. I think those are two sides of the same coin. You can't be supportive of one without really being supportive of the other. It doesn't make sense to me.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, oh well, that's exactly how I feel, which is I i think ah it it doesn't... i I am after no special privileges myself because I already actually i am able to navigate the world and I'm able to navigate it far more happily now. And I also have the advantage of I do not have to work in an office.
00:16:07
Speaker
Indeed, the scatterbrained nature of my thoughts is my career and I'm far more comfortable with it now and and and it's totally different. So I...
00:16:20
Speaker
and So to me, it's it's the the starting point for someone with the advantages I have is it should make me even more impassioned to look at the inequality that is suffered by so many people in the world. And and I think, you know, we've we've seen this.
00:16:35
Speaker
I think, you know, to go back to the trans thing, i I think it's shocking to me. I just saw there was some Trump speech where he talked about the definition of a woman. And I heard the people cheering and I was like, you do know that this person is a sexual predator.
00:16:51
Speaker
You do know that this person is not just talking about trans people. This, as we've already seen, is the key to anyone who is considered by white male supremacists to be other supremacists.
Privilege, Empathy, and Self-Reflection
00:17:05
Speaker
And that's a huge amount of the world, you know, that that that is, you know, about race, religion, gender, sex, the whole thing. and And that's what I find most shocking is I look at what's going. Yeah. and And I think it's made it because I always wondered, you know, when I was a kid, the people I was most drawn to were very often, you know, kind of LGBT authors.
00:17:28
Speaker
And, you know, and and the films that I liked were and the music that I liked and all of those things. And I always thought, you know, why why why why do I again have so few Bryan Adams records in my collection?
00:17:41
Speaker
And that's not in any way to have a go at Bryan Adams. But you know what mean? There's a kind of... He seems like a nice little enough chap. Yeah. But I think there is that. um To use it as an access system, especially if you come from Advantage, an access system to think, right, I need to be open to so many different voices and I need to make as many platforms for those voices as well.
00:18:03
Speaker
And, you know, some of the art that I've seen recently, like I i went to see this wonderful Michelina Thomas, who I think that's how her name is pronounced. I wasn't going to go to two exhibitions at the Hayward Gallery in London. I thought there was one artist. I really want to go and see her exhibition.
00:18:19
Speaker
And then I looked at the the picture of Michelina on the advert. I thought, it doesn't really look like my thing, but I'm going to go in anyway. And of course, as usual, I went in and what had not looked like my thing, i came out just freaking.
00:18:31
Speaker
filled with energy. And she's a queer black feminist artist who, you know, the very opening of the exhibition is her, just a little piece about how her work comes from love.
00:18:44
Speaker
And that's another thing that's really informed me is people like her, ah the people like Robert Rauschenberg who says, why does our art have to come from our pain? Why can't it come from our joy? That thing, and I noticed with so many of the progressive voices,
00:19:00
Speaker
that their work starts from love. yeah and And that is such a ah ah powerful thing. And that's why i think, yeah, which the we do ourselves a great disservice in any time when we go. ah i mean, it's what we see. Trump is a great example of it.
00:19:19
Speaker
You know, no one, yeah oh, aren't the woke who was whining? No, actually, most woke people are just trying to be progressive. And then you're all whining, going, and oh I don't think anyone's had such a bad time being a president as me and everything's so unfair. Hello, my name's Lawrence Fox and it's not fair because I didn't go to Eton. I had to go to Harrow School. And they're just these blinding men with so many advantages.
00:19:47
Speaker
And and that that to me is, it's hilarious if it wasn't for the fact that some of these people have a huge amount of power and everyone just goes, oh yeah. she's I mean, I wrote a piece the other day saying, I think I made it up. I said it was the 35th anniversary of the first time that a newspaper columnist had written, do you know what? Nowadays, it's almost impossible to be a white middle-class man. If you want to get anywhere, you need to be a one-legged black lesbian, right? Yeah.
00:20:12
Speaker
Now, I've looked at the power structures across the world And there is still a real lack of one-legged black lesbians in charge. They're not in charge of the BBC.
00:20:24
Speaker
They're not in charge of the Bank of England. And the fact that this has been going on, this pathetic victimhood. It's like when people say, Giles Corrin will go, oh, it's almost impossible to get a book published now as a white middle-class man. Go to the bookshop, Giles.
00:20:38
Speaker
There's lots of them. It's not issue. There are plenty. There really are plenty. It's that thing where you go, but hopefully for everyone who does have the advantages like me, we have to keep working harder because there should be more competition.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, we do. Shall we? Shall we? No, no, no. You've got to say, we do something that's on point. no No, no, no, no, no. Well, I just wanted to, I mean, I'm having so much fun. Okay. Are you all right with that? Yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
I suppose. Okay. All right. Well, we have got some questions that might be quite interesting to ask. Okay. I was about to ask the question, which is what questions will you ask? Which is actually the introduction to the section. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is the actual question. So hard yeah I think I'll just shut up and get on with it. I'm not i'm not putting us back on track because there's some box to tick. I'm putting back on track. No, no, know, I know.
00:21:28
Speaker
we've we've We've made the promise that we're going to ask these questions. Okay. Thinking about when you were growing up, when did you become aware of being different to other people and how did that feel? I think for as long as i can remember, I always felt very much on the outside.
00:21:47
Speaker
i I never felt comfortable in my skin. I was always very aware of my skin as well, if you know what I mean. like I was always very aware of of imperfections. I was always very aware of what my freakery would be.
00:22:03
Speaker
that you know that that what what would my what my my freeery would be I mean, don't literally skin alone. And yeah, I never and, you know, I think I mentioned, but you have there was and until about three years ago, if anyone had ever said, you know, well, who are your friends?
00:22:21
Speaker
I would have been i wouldn't have really said anyone because I found anything that was definite and anything that was sure and certain. Right. Was a step too far. um And that was very much my childhood is that I was like now I very comfortably for the last four days while it's been sunny, I have been sat in a graveyard writing poetry.
00:22:43
Speaker
ah And i have found my logical conclusion and just checking out the ground before I go inside it. And um and but.
00:22:54
Speaker
As a kid, I would go – I would just hang around the graveyard. in quiet I used to – again, I don't know if this – I know I mentioned it in a previous book, but I got so scared of rabies because there used to be all these adverts. You might be old enough to remember, Tess. You won't know, but there used to be these adverts which would which would basically go, rabies is coming.
00:23:13
Speaker
There are cats. There are cat shows. And there'd be, they were public information films and there'd woman smagging in a kitten, a kitten full of rabies. And if you get rabies, they inject you in the belly button. Oh, it's the most painful injection you could have. And it doesn't even cure you. They just do it because you've got rabies, right?
Media Perceptions and Nostalgia
00:23:28
Speaker
it was like Of course, that went into my mind and obsessed me and terrified me.
00:23:34
Speaker
And I used to go and sit in our little church and I would think about killing myself by holding my breath. So that was at the age of eight. i That was the kind of thing that I was, and as I've explained in the past, it turns out you can't kill yourself just by holding your breath. The body has worked out survival systems. But that was the kind of, you know, headspace that I was in most of the time, except when Doctor Who was on.
00:23:59
Speaker
Oh, gosh. Except when Doctor Who was on. Because then you'd have Tom Baker telling you that everything was going to be basically okay. Yeah. Yeah. but now it's gone woke. I was thinking about Doctor Who earlier, actually, and how the the the overt ah progressive agenda of it is just blowing people's mind and making them kind of find desperate reasons not to like it.
00:24:24
Speaker
The reason I don't like it is their teeth are too nice now. It's un-British. You made a good point, actually, that they've got two Me and Sally were watching the episode and Tess was there for two minutes and made the most tranchant and you know the best critique of the current era of Doctor Who I've ever heard. The teeth are too white, which is fair.
00:24:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's an interesting – because, I mean, I love that the the first – was it the first episode of the kind of The Return of David Tennant, where you have ah um a trans character, a policeman in ah a turban, I think, and they're all saved by someone in a wheelchair.
00:25:05
Speaker
And and i my son and I were just laughing and just going, this is beautiful, because it is like Russell T. Davis, is, you know, holding up that Johnny Cash finger – to just the Daily Mail and all of those.
00:25:18
Speaker
um mean, sometimes do find it a bit overt. like um I think that's a funny thing, isn't it? When people go on about how Doctor Who is now woke. Well, of course, for many of us outsider kids, it always was.
00:25:30
Speaker
You know, there's a reason there's a huge... You know, the the LGBT Doctor Who community, you know, there used to be, probably is still now, there used to be a group called the Sisters of Calm, you know, and and and you look at the you know the importance it had for someone like, you know, Mark Gatiss and for Russell T Davies and all of those things. But I've i've been doing a tour with the comic strip who were kind of alternative comedy in the in the early eighty s Oh, yeah. And with Rick Mayle and Nigel Planer and French and Saunders and lots of others. And it's been every night that we stop now, but there would always be question going, do you think you could make these shows nowadays? Because now with, you know, the whole woke thing.
00:26:09
Speaker
And I always just say you seem to have forgotten that. This was the woke thing. Yeah, that was extremely... Four and three years ago, alternative comedy was, oh, my God, i mean, it's all just lesbians. and like You know, this whole... And I think it's a very and a great warning to all of us, you know, when you you you get towards middle age and beyond, going, there is an easy way of just suddenly slipping into, but in the old days and failing to realise that you just haven't kept up.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But i love it. Yeah, I love the the... I still... One of the greatest lines ever, ah met many of them, Kathy Burke, that great line about... You probably have to beep this out, but um I'd rather be woke than an ignorant beep, beep.
00:26:54
Speaker
You can sit there. But, and ah you know, those voices are so important, I think. You see someone like Kathy Burke and see someone who kind of educated themselves in Islington Library and, you know, all of that stuff.
00:27:06
Speaker
and she's done it. She's done it. She's, you know, she's not coming from... position of huge privilege exactly she's she's lived life fully and and and this is where she's she's landed up she she carries a huge amount of heft i reckon yeah because of who she is so let's let's go on to our next question okay unless already covered what was your process towards understanding your difference Thanks for reading out all the notes as well. I mean, the process was, I would not be doing this podcast with you now if it hadn't been for someone else intervening.
00:27:42
Speaker
Because one of the odd things about in in the book that I wrote, you know, seven or eight years ago, I'm a joker. So at one point, actually say a lot of people say that after gigs that I have ADHD, but I think it's just something that happens when I'm performing.
00:27:55
Speaker
And I think I was so incredibly in, well, it wasn't even denial. It was just saying, well, that's just the way things are. To be anxious throughout the whole day, to be filled with self-loathing. There's a lot of worse things in the world. This is just the way things should be. And I still find it...
00:28:13
Speaker
strange to think the length of time, the entirety of my adulthood, of that feeling and and all the other things that come with it.
Empowerment Through ADHD Diagnosis
00:28:22
Speaker
And then um Jamie, who's this wonderful, ah got used to do the, what's it, is it 20,000, how many seconds of of autism is it? He did a wonderful podcast on autism.
00:28:34
Speaker
And Jamie and Lion, Lion is Jamie's squishy. And um he, one day, i think it was just after lockdown, I was still on Twitter then, and I saw his account and I saw he followed me and I thought, well this guy looks interesting.
00:28:47
Speaker
And I followed him and almost instantaneously, a DM arrived from him saying, I'm really glad you're following me. um ah hope this isn't weird or anything, but um I wonder if we can have a chat.
00:29:00
Speaker
And we had a conversation for three or four hours. And so I was diagnosed by this person who truly, you know, understood it all because as, ah you know, a young autistic person who's who spent a lot of time looking at neurodivergence. And so that that was there was an instantaneous change at that point.
00:29:23
Speaker
which was the realization that many of the things I had beaten myself up about most were actually the very things that made me creatively interesting, whatever it might be.
00:29:36
Speaker
and ah And then over that period of time for about eight months, I then suddenly thought, why have I never... thought about just trying something that will deal with the anxiety and and and the kind of the melancholy.
00:29:52
Speaker
And so I decided just that I would try and get a prescription. And I got a prescription. um That was then the the final change that I've reached now, which is the the level. I mean, I almost feel I was writing about it for the big issue the other day. I think it was a big issue. But I was like um that for me, the box in my head that kept all my anxiety in is And that would leak out the whole time, obviously, is now the box in my head where all my creativity is.
00:30:20
Speaker
So all the things that I can achieve now... that I was unable to achieve before all the ways that I am able to look at the world and find joy in so many different things, all the ways that I can try and use love in any form of activism, rather than fury.
00:30:38
Speaker
You can still be angry. I'm not saying you should, but you know what mean? So yeah, it was, it was a, ah but I would never have, I would still just be, you know, miserable. I might have written a book about anxiety or something. and i would um So Jamie's intervention was the most... And then I did have an official diagnosis, which hated having done.
00:30:58
Speaker
because It's very yeah you don't says such a footnote in the book. You're like, oh, and also did this. Yeah, well, do you know what? Because it wasn't for me of any importance. The only reason that I did it... was because I knew that otherwise there's so many different weapons people will use against neurodivergent people, people, you know, who's a failure. It's such a beautiful thing, isn't it? Like the double empathy problem where, you know, that basic thing where discover going, no, no, no, it's it's it's not that autistic people can't understand you and go inside you. It's also that you can't go inside their minds, you know, and that realisation.
00:31:34
Speaker
But sorry, going off on another tangent, but No, no, the double empathy problem is really important. it's worth It might be worth just spelling out kind of what that is, because it's it's so important. It's so vital. And actually, just does ah as ah as a tangent of my own, I love the fact that you haven't written a book about ADHD. You've written a book about neurodiversity, because I think there are so many books which are just about one diagnosis. And it's so positive and and refreshing to have one which is just about...
00:31:59
Speaker
the the the principle of brain difference and and and celebrating that. I think i think that that's fantastic. um But double, sorry, just just just saying, um double empathy, as I understand it, is is, yes, you're right. It's it's almost encapsulates the idea the the
00:32:18
Speaker
autistic mind and the neurotypical mind are just working on parallel tracks. It's not that the autistic mind doesn't understand something. ah They're not only are they not understood by neurotypical people, they can't get neurotypical people to understand them. And so there's that double um barrier of communication, none of which would matter if it wasn't for the fact that neurotypical people are in power and and determine the world.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, it is that thing where there was always the presumption, of well, autistic people can't feel empathy um and failing to realise that these people had, you know, because, I mean, I think I was doing an event with with my friend Camilla Pang the other day, you know, and and it's such a, again, you know, the the definition of of of autism is its its own it it has to be people's presumptions are it is Dustin Hoffman and Rain Man. I mean, sadly, that is the thing, you know, that that that is autism.
00:33:15
Speaker
And the realisation that, you know, there's so many other, again, the spectrum. and And what I found interesting, again, which was when I, you know, it was very important to me in the book as well, I hope to to get across that I I think at the moment we're in very early stages of going, this is autistic behaviour, this is ADHD behaviour, this is dyspraxic behaviour.
00:33:37
Speaker
Now, all of those things give us a model of the brain in which there are, like there used to be a little comic strip called the
Complexity of Neurodivergent Behaviors
00:33:43
Speaker
numbskulls. I think about the numbskulls all the time. I can't use it as ah as an example because obviously it says numbskulls and I'm not going to use that in clinic to talk to the parents.
00:33:52
Speaker
Which was Was it in the dandy, was it? I think it might be Beezer or Topper, but it was... So they were all... so basically the brain was filled with lots of different... Oh, my God. Oh, I had this.
00:34:04
Speaker
The little... They looked like nerd suites, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gave this to me. I had a book about these. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how people, I think, there's still this kind of view of the brain. And I often say to people when they say, I'm about to get diagnosed with ADHD too, autism.
00:34:20
Speaker
And I go, you have to know there is such, there can be such a huge shaded area in behaviours that are given these separate definitions.
00:34:32
Speaker
Because I find there's a lot of similarities ah that I have sometimes with with um autistic friends. um there's ah and And it's also interesting as well because on the ADHD side of things where...
00:34:46
Speaker
One thing that I really noticed is I would say that my experience of ADHD was often far, had far more similarities to women's experience of having ADHD than men's experiences, especially at school.
00:35:04
Speaker
That ah I was a um a quiet fidgeter filled with anxiety. which seem to be, and again, I'm not, these are very broad in what I'm talking about because so many different forms of behaviour.
00:35:17
Speaker
But generally, when I would speak to to women, they would say when they were at school, there was a boy and he climbed across all the desks and he was like, ah! And again, that's the cliche of ADHD.
00:35:29
Speaker
They would sit there kind of almost stimming and just kind of, you know, trying to keep everything in because of the extra anxiety, which came with the fact that, you know, they were also girls at school facing, again, another whole level set but of problems.
00:35:43
Speaker
but But we've moved on from that question. I do apologise. No, I think we've covered lots of really useful useful stuff. I mean, i mean it's it's all part of the process of understanding your difference. It's something that continues throughout your entire life. It's not something that you go, right, well, that makes sense. Oh, it does.
00:35:58
Speaker
And then you just move on. It really, really does, actually. And from my experience of, you know, I've been diagnosed six years now. Congratulations. Congratulations.
00:36:08
Speaker
Thank you. um And I'm still discovering weirdnesses about my ADHD and about my brain. And and obviously it it is more difficult. You talked about in your in the book about the instinctual self, which is such a great phrase. And what does that mean? I don't know.
00:36:22
Speaker
What does that mean? I think it means almost like your true self, where you're not masking and you're not... and i'm I'm just putting words in your mouth, Robert. That bit where but you have not got a commentary that leads you to that form of behaviour.
00:36:39
Speaker
yeah so ums the um you I think an enormous number of our behaviours are taking into account who is observing us and how we're going to be perceived.
00:36:52
Speaker
And, you know, that's something that is is now very low on my register. used to be that was very... In fact, I remember at one point when I briefly went to to see a therapist and I started to say, I don't know if I exist, if there's no one there to observe me.
00:37:08
Speaker
And I realised that was actually me really just noticing how many masks I would use ah to cover up the... Does that connect with your your career as a performer? Is that connected to that?
00:37:24
Speaker
Well, I think there's some connection. You need a performance some ways. Because I've always tried, you know, the more I've done, the more I kind of, I don't have, I mean, I found that I went back and few comedy clubs recently. I still do shows, but I actually went to clubs.
00:37:37
Speaker
um It was interesting because the comp compares would ask me, they'd say, oh, so what what do you close with? And I said, I don't know. and And I don't have an opening line either. I just have a brain that's full of stuff.
00:37:50
Speaker
And then I see what happens. And it made me realize, you know, now I have such freedom. Whereas before, I would have moments on stage where I truly now was just lost in whatever kind of, you know, selection of words and images were in my head.
00:38:09
Speaker
But how i would then the voice I i used to see if I remember what it was. i used to talk about the five voices in my head when I was on stage. I would say one is the voice that is me talking now.
00:38:21
Speaker
ah The other is a little voice which is behind a typewriter and it's banging away. It's going, I've come up with an idea. I've come with an idea. I've come up with an idea. I've come up with an idea.
00:38:32
Speaker
I've come up with an idea. And then there's a third voice that goes, don't do that idea. Doing that idea Stansted Mount Fitchett on a Tuesday, you'll die on your ass, right?
00:38:43
Speaker
um And it would just, i can't remember what the other two two, I think the fifth one would be, and obviously the fifth one's my mother. Why did you end up doing this? could have done a job, it's just normal. yeah But i can't remember what the fourth one was, but it was, but that was what it was. So now i don't have, it's now a singular voice.
00:39:02
Speaker
That singular voice is, I've come up with an idea, I've come up with an idea. And every now and again, my mind will go, ah think you're moving so fast now. that you need to give them some form of pause because their brain, because people always come out and get gigs and go, oh my God, I feel exhausted, you know, in a puzzle um and in some ways what's been useful is since I started writing poetry, because every now and again I'll go, oh, they need some kind of sorbet to cool their minds.
00:39:32
Speaker
And so I'll do something that has rhythm and order. Oh, I see. So you'll bring out some pots and poetry during your set. Yeah. And it will just suddenly, I think, oh, I wanted to, oh God, that actually links to that. I think I've got that poem here. I'll do that.
00:39:44
Speaker
um But the freedom that I have is, you know, it kind of because before the speed in which, you know, the moment there wasn't a laugh, I mean, it's not even... Literally, it be the set up to something. So it's not even meant to be a laugh there, but my brain would immediately go into, I think they're having a terrible time. I think no one's enjoying this at all. Yes.
00:40:03
Speaker
that That man there thinks. and so And that was the critical voice that was throughout the rest of the day. and so It's remarkable how simply the...
00:40:16
Speaker
knowledge of your ADHD status, ah how transformative that's been for you. It's sort of our third question, but I just, because it's obvious from the book and from what you're talking about today, it really has changed everything.
00:40:27
Speaker
and it's obvious it'ss it's it's extremely It's extremely striking to me that how how important that's been. I think it's, I find it interesting because sometimes I think from the outside perspective,
00:40:40
Speaker
people wouldn't see much of a difference. But Kath, who was the person who produced the um ah the audio book of of this, and we' it turned out we'd worked together like 17 years before on a Richard and Judy show.
00:40:54
Speaker
um and And she said to me one day, she it's very interesting, because I always knew, said, I'd watch you. And you always had, I could see this tremendous negativity from,
00:41:06
Speaker
out yourself And she noticed that. And and i i i might I think in the introduction, I talk about my ah one of my wonderful friends, Jo, who I first met um when she was doing this brilliant manic tap dancing.
00:41:19
Speaker
Yes, you do. And she's found a lot about herself as well. and and And I go, it's odd because I almost think from the outside, if people saw Joe and me in the pub, they would see two people really passionately talking about stuff and being so excited about the world or or with Josie Long or whoever it might be, you know, only my close friends like that.
00:41:40
Speaker
ah But we don't have the other voice in there. And I think it does mean that actually even from the outside you'd be able to observe that. But I think it's interesting how much you can you can kind of cover it. But i I also think, and I always have to say this, and it's why quite often in in most of the books i I like to lay out at the beginning the acknowledgement of the privilege that I have, is I'm in a world where I'm allowed to do this kind of thing, that I don't have to follow many rules. In fact, I deliberately now I make far less money because I would rather always work for myself with the exception of working for the BBC on Infinite Monkey Cage.
00:42:15
Speaker
And of course, the moment I'm in there, there's all manner of different things that I'm battling against. yeah i mean And there's rules and there's, why did you put that on and and social media? Because blah, blah, blah.
00:42:27
Speaker
um And so that, so I do, ah to be aware that, I am able to make a living doing what I want is, of course, not very often the position of a lot of Eurodivergent people.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and But I think that one of the key things about the book is and ah another really remarkable thing that I don't think I've seen other people do is how much you... centre other people's experiences and and the the people you know the things that other people have experienced from and and it just makes it such a richer kind of text.
00:43:01
Speaker
um I suppose, i mean, least is there a question coming from that? i just think it is. um I suppose, did you ever think, well, actually, is everything, to what extent do you say, well, how did you choose from all the hundreds of people you talked about, how did you choose who was going to go in the book and who wasn't going to go in the book?
00:43:19
Speaker
and And did you ever kind of go, I'm not sure that's actually true. That might just be you when you talk to when when people. know Do you know what? That happened very rarely. ah i I think it's one of the interesting things, which is that though it may not have been true for me or it may not have been true for a lot of people.
00:43:39
Speaker
So many of I mean, but the the selection thing was really hard. because I have a huge body of recordings of of ah people who I would love to have put more of their stories in.
00:43:53
Speaker
So I just wanted to try and put in as many stories as possible that I think would create the kind of tentacles of connections with as many people as possible. And I wanted to make sure that the, yeah i i you know, for me, it's a very important thing, whether it's shows that I'm doing, whether it's books that I'm writing, poetry, whatever it is, to me, that the importance of connection, the importance of connection,
00:44:20
Speaker
people who feel on the outside knowing that they have allies is really is. And and i I think about it a lot. And like when I was talking about the, the idea of of of of love as a starting point, it really is very, very important
Love, Connection, and Rehumanizing Society
00:44:34
Speaker
to me. And so many of these things are considered whimsical when in fact they're incredibly dynamic and important, you know the ability to be able to talk about love,
00:44:44
Speaker
yeah i' would i'd sometimes use these I used to write a ah column that was reviewing radio and and and podcasts, and I would never review anything that I didn't like. Because I thought, if I have this number of words, I want to use them to lead people to something good, not say, this is not for you.
00:45:02
Speaker
And someone said, but isn't it harder to write about things that you love? And I said, it is initially because our vocabulary is set up for confrontation, is set up for defense, is set up, you know, a lot of it.
00:45:15
Speaker
But... the moment you start exercising the, I'm writing about this because I love it, your vocabulary increases. And you know've I've used the example in the past of saying, you know you you have different groups that exist around the world who, for instance, can experience colours that we may not be able to experience. They can experience of varieties of green that we would see as just one green. We wouldn't notice the difference between the greens.
00:45:40
Speaker
And I think that's a very good example of the fact that Part of that is not just about the environment they're brought up in. It's also about the number of words that they have. And the more words that you have and the more words you exercise in terms of understanding other people's minds, in terms of understanding love, in terms of companionship, in terms of being woke in the best sense of the word.
00:46:03
Speaker
um I think that it it you know that these are incredible. There's a line that i love. in a biography of the artist Leonora Carrington, which says, ah for those who live in emotional poverty, other people's happiness is a threat.
00:46:17
Speaker
Yes. it's something that I really... That's a good one. And that's what, when I look at things like the brilliant poet and and author Alexis Pauline Gumbs... ah who wrote a wonderful book called Undrowned Black Feminist Lessons from Marine Mammals. And it's beautiful. And she starts off by saying, who is this book for?
00:46:33
Speaker
This book is for you, otherwise known as everyone who knows that a world where queer black feminine folk are living their fullest, most abundant and loving lives is a world where everyone is free.
00:46:44
Speaker
And you see a line like that. And I know that kind of... Trumpish, Farage-ish, Foxish attitude to that would be to sneer.
00:46:56
Speaker
But that, to me, is the revelation of the poverty of their existence. and And sorry, I can't even remember what the question was, but it's it's like, for me, it is... It's how you select it out. It doesn't matter.
00:47:09
Speaker
Well, it doesn't matter. ah No, it's really hard. But in the end, it was like with each subject, it was... Will this story connect?
00:47:21
Speaker
Will this story help? If not connect, will it also just have a sense of, will this help people understand the variety of possibilities in um in in the minds of those around us? and And I also think something that I would love to have written more about and i hope it is...
00:47:36
Speaker
i'm very i'm I'm obsessed with the idea of permission, that people need permission to speak or to believe that they can, do you know, depending on on where you come from, you sometimes might have a very limited number of possibilities unless people say you are allowed to be this.
00:47:51
Speaker
And it's something that I think about a great deal, which is firstly, in the book, I was thinking I want people to know they are allowed to be who they are. And they will find the people. yeah know Whenever I've got school kids in an audience, and quite often you know i know that the kids are in the audience because they're a show that I'm doing because they're not the kids in school who are you know what are considered to be the alpha kids at school.
00:48:18
Speaker
And I will always try and put something in about the fact that sometimes when you're going through school, you think this is what life is always going to be like. And you think this is the social groupings that are always going to be there.
00:48:30
Speaker
But the more that, you know, as as the possibilities broaden, you will find your people. And people will find ah work harder and harder to find you. So those kind of, i mean, that is actually partly of you know what I really wanted to do. I would like a world where people, a friend of mine sent me a thing the other day um about some sexual abuse that she'd experienced.
00:48:54
Speaker
And she said, I'm sorry to you know beat be all heavy. I said, I'd want a world where we don't consider that to be heavy, we consider that to be an acceptable part of any conversation, that we don't have to go, we don't have to always be skimming on the surface, that that moment where someone feels free to talk about some pain, some yeah that all of those things are things that are in my head a great deal now, which are, I know that you know I have the most advantageous position that you can have in in the society that we're in.
00:49:31
Speaker
And if I don't use that position to try and work out different ways of amplifying other people who don't have all the advantages I have, then I think I've failed.
00:49:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's lifting other voices up. and You've certainly done that extremely effectively. I wanted to ask, I just wanted to talk quickly and to take ah a massive handbrake turn and into a more medical ah right um kind of domain. Yeah.
00:49:58
Speaker
You mentioned a ah prescription, but so what's really interesting is that the ah revelation that you are an ADHD person led to you getting a
Mental Health Challenges and Medication Choices
00:50:07
Speaker
prescription. And people might assume that was for ADHD medication, but it's not. it's for anxiety medication.
00:50:13
Speaker
know that I mean, that's obviously, absolutely. because But it feels like rather than saying, I need to treat my ADHD, it's almost like I need to look after myself now or I need... yeah And you look after my brain now. and And your means of doing that was just, was not necessarily the ADHD medication. It was another kind of medication.
00:50:32
Speaker
Yeah, it was like the, you know, the the anxiety, I think probably, you know, it it is part of that thing again, in the the great big lump of the brain that is all inspired by so many other things that ADHD, but it was like, I i didn't need to create greater order.
00:50:45
Speaker
ah I felt anyway, perhaps others would disagree. I thought I have this incredible freedom. um i know other people who really have needed it you know but have a friend and she's mother of two young children and to have a period of time in the day where everything is she can order things in a way that she couldn't normally yeah but yeah for me the anxiety thing i i i didn't feel ashamed to ask and um
00:51:16
Speaker
So did you feel ashamed to ask for help? Because your anxiety has obviously, you know, has been ah problem since you were eight years old. Yeah. Really significant problem. And some of the stuff in your and the book is heartbreaking about how you used to think about yourself.
00:51:29
Speaker
But you didn't feel permission to seek help for your anxiety until you felt that you had ADHD. Yeah, I think it was because I'd taken the risk of finding out about my mind.
00:51:44
Speaker
And I found something out. And I just had the, I was building up to a tour that I was doing with Brian Cox. And I was suddenly like, well, hang on a minute. Why, why am i not allowed?
00:51:57
Speaker
Why am i forbidden from, you know, and it might not work and maybe, and I think also we often have that thing, which is the fear of changing your mind for the fear that something will be lost.
00:52:09
Speaker
think that might come into it. but i'd not But most of it was just that, you know, you don't want to make a fuss and you just want to get on with everything. But then I thought, well, hang on a minute, it's not even making a fuss. It's literally asking about whether I can get a prescription. and And then it was, I mean, as I mentioned the book, one of the fascinating things for me was – So I started taking it. I'm on search for which not doesn't work for everyone. and I know many, many people are. And and I mean, that's part of the problem, which is, of course, the brain is again, its complexity means that the chemical formulations you take may not match what what is required for you. But so it got worse initially.
00:52:44
Speaker
And then I actually reached a point where I sent an email to Brian Cox and Steph, is his assistant, saying, no, I don't really want to do boring email, but there's quite a lot of anxiety at the moment. Don't me. yeah i yeah It's like, you know, it's a good measurement, isn't it?
00:53:01
Speaker
If you actually look back at your emails, and you say, how many of these start with I'm sorry? Sorry, sorry to disturb you. Sorry for this. Sorry for this. All of those things which are always viewing yourself as and um an inconvenience in other people's lives.
00:53:19
Speaker
It was only when I was writing the book that i really thought, oh yeah, the reason I was able to write that letter was not because I was more anxious. if felt If I had had my real, the normal anxiety, I would have been far too anxious to have sent that letter. You wouldn't have even done it. I was able to actually say, um just so you know, I mean, I'm sure we find everything, but I want you just know that was the beginning of something of, you know, being able to reveal. And then, of course, that's one of the things where you also find a lot of cynicism, because because we hide.
00:53:50
Speaker
you know, most people will hide their anxiety until they truly snap. Yeah. um And that's true of of neurotypical people and and all sorts of people. You know, one thing that I would like, you know, to people to take from this book, whatever that they they believe their that their mind is, is that there's no point in being silent about your pain or the battles you're having.
00:54:14
Speaker
Because if you have real friends... you will be able to say, do you know what I've had? You wouldn't it be amazing if we lived in a world where you're sat around in a pub or whatever, and one of your friends just goes, God, it's been a bit weird week, actually, because she's been having a lot of suicidal thoughts.
00:54:31
Speaker
And and and that it doesn't have to immediately be, oh, God, this is a bit heavy. You have to press the button, you know, mental health emergency button, and everyone has to go, yeah tell me more. And that's not, because that's not, shouldn't be how it works.
00:54:45
Speaker
when When we're able to have, know, I mean, ah mentioned before, but some of the things that people from the audience will tell me after shows, Yeah. um there and And, you know, I think coming from a long line of vicars. Oh, do you?
00:55:00
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, interesting. but You see, I'm godless, so I can't get in the pulpit. and the um And I realise that it does have... there's a stranger that they've enjoyed listening to and they feel they've been given permission.
00:55:13
Speaker
And that's also, i've ive so I just want to mention this because it's quite an important thing I found was, I mentioned the book, but ah Edinburgh two years ago when i was doing the Fringe Festival there, I got into a habit which I'd started about two weeks before at Walthamstow Trades Club where I realised that very often I would sometimes go up to someone, ah tell them a story and then leave and go, what the fuck did you tell them that?
00:55:35
Speaker
God, you and they must think you're an absolute idiot. I don't even really know them. And so I got into the habit and I still do it. if If someone comes up to me and they share something from their life, I say afterwards, I say, thanks very much for telling me that story.
00:55:51
Speaker
I know you might not believe it because I know if you're like me or how I used to be, the moment you leave and you might be even been thinking as you were telling me, why on earth am I telling him this? He's really bored. Yeah.
00:56:02
Speaker
So I want to put it out there and tell you, I am glad you shared that story with me. And it was pleasure. And that's so powerful. That's really important. To say it out loud. You know, if we were able to, you know, so much of our lives are ruled by shame. And that is what we look at all the time on social media and and the news media.
00:56:19
Speaker
The news media is perpetually shaming people. Oh, constantly. And that means people hide. Right. And, you know, whether it's it starts off in, you know, again, the physical thing, the skin, you know, you see how many women are shamed for a particular, you know, whatever it might be, a particular shape of thigh.
00:56:40
Speaker
And that is news. And then you go from the outside into the inside. You know about strawberry arms? Strawberry arms. Yep. Don't know what that is. Arms that you used to eat strawberries with?
00:56:52
Speaker
Strawberry arms. I think they've they've got like bumps on them or something. Okay. So like a cellulite thing? It's not a cellulite thing. Cellulite's very separate. Okay. Sorry. It's every single week I will see a new thing on my feed. And I don't know why they keep showing it to me because I do not want to see that. you are 18. Every time i I hold down on that thing, I say, not interested. Scroll down five videos. It's there again. I don't know why they put that feature in if going to ignore me.
00:57:18
Speaker
I know what you mean with the strawberry arms. yeah I mean, what an incredible, again, that's a good example, I think, which is that example of going this binary thing, this yes or no.
Embracing Imperfection and Diverse Narratives
00:57:29
Speaker
And the way that we look at, you know, physical bodies is, and and and some of the images that I see cropping up and the fact that so many people use filters. Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:40
Speaker
And it makes me very sad that people feel they need to, because I was, so I'm doing a thing with, with the philosopher Slavoj Zizek tonight. And I was watching a, um a thing he was talking about and talking about, he he tells a story of a woman who turned to her girlfriend ah when they were both naked. And she said, do you know what?
00:57:58
Speaker
If you lost six pounds, your body would be perfect. So you must never lose six pounds. And I think that is because the joy of imperfection.
00:58:14
Speaker
the The joy of sometimes being able to look at, but it might be someone's scar. it might Again, the story of someone. yeah Some people are so embarrassed about the C-section scar they have or whatever it might be.
00:58:27
Speaker
But if we turn ourselves into this automaton, if we turn ourselves into you know this thing where you start to almost feel uncanny valley looking at certain people, and I think the same with minds. You will will come across minds that we cannot understand that have odd bumps, strawberry minds, and you look at those.
00:58:45
Speaker
um And that is where the fascination comes from. The fascination comes from and imperfection is the wrong word, I think. Yeah. it's It's not about imperfection. It's about the beautiful, the bumps and the lumps of thought or or physical reality.
00:59:03
Speaker
It's character in a sense. Yeah. Character actors are the ones with imperfections by any kind of conventional definition. Yeah. conventional definition shall we Shall we go on to a couple more questions? Yeah, go on Question.
00:59:20
Speaker
Are you going to read fourth question? Can I do something a little bit podcast-ly? I would like to jump to the final question and then maybe we can go back to the one before. Go for it, Tess. The final question that we have, we usually do at the end, or we used to, what are your hopes for the future? And I feel like that links in a little better as to what we're talking about Go for it, Tess.
00:59:42
Speaker
So what are your hopes? I got into trouble yesterday, but also a lot of people. gri I put up a thing on online where I said that I believe that I'm an optimistic pessimist. I really think that human beings have shown that it's just not going to work out.
00:59:58
Speaker
and that we can But I believe that there will be in that kind of direction that we're going in, there will also be things of incredible beauty, activism.
01:00:13
Speaker
There will be people whose voices, you know, who stand up for so many other people. And that those are the people that we really need to focus on. because it said So, so so my i mean, my general hope for the future is i just if we could see a world where you can have it. I mean, I really am just utterly ashamed that about what we've seen happening in Gaza.
01:00:40
Speaker
And Gabor Mate actually has been very interesting in in the way that he's talked about it, which is we've realised that some people's lives are worth more or less than others. And that's always been true. This is not a new... It's always been true.
01:00:53
Speaker
And at cowardice of the British government. And I look at the you know the moment that one day they can stand up and be very proud as they support Ukraine, but then terribly terrified of saying anything that might ah affect, you know, mean they'll get a little bit of hate mail or they'll get something like that, you know. and And I look at that with what we're looking at with Trump and we look at the, you know, the the Black Lives Matter square disappearing, the ah ah literal Stalinist erasing,
01:01:22
Speaker
of the stories of people who are not, you know, kind of the the the white men they want to to be. there you Do you mean things like, the is it the US State Department has have removed any... any really any any um ah reference to gay or anything like that. mean, including the other gay. so just I mean, literally, there are there are historical stories of, you know, great, you know, whether they are great black poets, whether they're, you all of that stuff is kind of being shoved away and and and saying that this art gallery will no longer get government funding if it still shows the work of of trans artists and all of that stuff.
01:02:04
Speaker
So my hope, and my you know and I don't know where we'll get with this, but when I stood, um I was outside the courts of justice at a Just Stop Oil um event. And I see so many people of so many different ages with so much passion and, again, love.
01:02:20
Speaker
And I see the way that they're treated by the media. And I see the way that JustUp Oil have to constantly justify themselves while the fossil fuel companies just continue hiding.
01:02:31
Speaker
I see the fact that we have a world where you, it's not capitalism because capitalism is, you're meant to get money because you did a good job. That has to be part of the capitalism, but you are now still able to get huge dividends and bonuses and pour sewage into the sea, into Lake Windermere, into all those things.
01:02:50
Speaker
um My hope is that we we reach a point where enough people go, this is preposterous. it seems just This is And i also, I would like political parties, both in the UK and US, to realise that there really are still a lot of progressive people.
01:03:08
Speaker
you know I do a lot of gigs free gigs in libraries and stuff like that. And a lot of the people who come don't even know who I am. They just know it's free night out. Because some people go, oh, yes, but Robin, I don't think you really understand or you don't really know these, you know, whatever.
01:03:20
Speaker
And I think, well, actually, I'm someone who travels the UK the whole time. And I don't just carry the nice places to play. I will play anywhere that will have me. And I love going to and I go to community centres. I will do whatever.
01:03:32
Speaker
And I meet all these people who are progressive, progressive. And they have so many different ages. It's bit like going back to the trans thing. Like I was telling a story to someone and their face dropped and then they realizeed what I saying.
01:03:43
Speaker
I said, there was a a woman in her early eighties who came up to me after a gig and she went, I really enjoyed that. I was a little bit worried when you brought up the but trans stuff. Right. And at that point, people go, oh, here we go. And then she continued, because my granddaughter is trans.
01:03:58
Speaker
Now, I'm meeting people like that all the time. Sheffield Library recently, again, the same thing. These people are not represented by mainstream politics.
01:04:09
Speaker
And so, sorry, it's a very long answer, but I really... i i sometimes what you're talking about in a way what you're talking about mean trans thing is we keep coming back to it and we're both quite passionate about it it's fair to say um all three of us and all three of us yes and you as well well tess is the social media lead for our local pride i am oh great which is happening for the first time this year right let's not tell everyone where we live okay but i'm not saying that yet yet when's that coming out big reveal
01:04:42
Speaker
um ah Yeah, good point. um but But I think it's about empathy. It's about... And and and we know when you when you know somebody personally rather than as an abstraction, your empathy towards them, and therefore that group increases.
01:04:58
Speaker
And so when you the more people know trans people, the more and and and more empathy for trans people will spread throughout the um population. And the more people know ADHD and autistic people,
01:05:09
Speaker
as people. And I think that's why it's so important to have media representation because if you live in like a tiny village with no gay people, which is possible, although genuinely tends to be quite rare. Well, with no out gay people, it's more possible.
01:05:22
Speaker
That you need to, well, I suppose... not really meeting them, but understand these characters or these portrayals of real people in in documentary stuff. you know you You just have to be aware that these people exist and that they are human.
01:05:38
Speaker
and And then I think that when you when you reach that point, you do gain empathy, whether or not you can have that one-on-one interaction with them. But knowing academically is one thing. Knowing the person, you know, having a trans friend is different to knowing kind of the theory of gender. We talk about in sociology, or we did when I was doing that A-level,
01:06:01
Speaker
ah The fact that most people know the characters in the soap operas that they watch better than they know the person who lives next door to them, or better that they know their friend down the street who walks the dog for them. So I think that it can sometimes be more significant to have these people online. but That's a really good point.
01:06:21
Speaker
I mean, obviously not get to know them, but you get to know them and understand them on a deep level, even if sometimes they're not even real. you know, their characters on a programme. I don't know if that... No, I think......reaks true with you. I think it does. i don't mean, interested to see what you you think, Robin. I think it does. I mean, Doctor Who's another example of great representation, yeah of course. um You know, it's been going for 20 years of of really upping the the representation.
01:06:46
Speaker
I think nowadays, of course, if you think about new kind of the younger generation, it's YouTubers and and and yeah and and they're often seen as a very negative influence. But you think about Dan and Phil, what a great, you know, Dan and Phil, the YouTubers.
01:06:59
Speaker
So, you know, there's such, I mean, me and your mum are big fans. I went to see a Dan Howell show, not for my birthday, for my mum's birthday gift. Yeah, yeah. But because they're such partly because they're such great role models.
01:07:12
Speaker
Yeah. They're so gentle. Dan wrote this book called ah You Will Get Through This Night. And it's an incredible commentary about mental health. And I've read it. It's one of the few books that I've actually read. Because I just do not have an intentions plan for it.
01:07:27
Speaker
But, um and then that video essay that he made when he came out was just absolutely beautiful. And if anyone listening to this hasn't watched it, I would really recommend it.
Role Models and Media Representation
01:07:37
Speaker
can It's just, it's a great introduction for a lot of people. I think it's been to the queer experience.
01:07:43
Speaker
I think they such that is such a, that thing of rehumanisation, because there's so much dehumanisation. I think it's what really frustrates me on the on the kind of Andrew Tate front, where these boring pieces that keep getting written, books, articles, comics mentioning it, oh, there's no, boys don't have any role models.
01:08:03
Speaker
Well, that's absolute nonsense. Yeah. ah The media are determined to create this illusion that, um And in fact, what they should really be doing, if they had any responsibility at all, is elevating the voices you're talking about. So many voices.
01:08:19
Speaker
There are so many brilliant, I mean, you know, in in my dream world, if I wrote a poem about this, the the idea that your role models don't have to have the same chromosomes as you. You know, you don't have have that.
01:08:31
Speaker
my my role model is, you know, that to me would be a true advance where you don't have to be in anywhere shamed of the, in you know, the fact that your favourite person is woman activist, is, you know, is a non-binary singer, whatever. All of these things shouldn't matter.
01:08:45
Speaker
But I do think that thing where, you know, because the real, you know, if if we we're that bit of going, I think we're creating that that incel movement is really stoked by so much that is in the mass media.
01:08:59
Speaker
And then they but well once they've created that situation. So rehumanisation is, I think, one of those things that we we have to fight for all the time. I mean, it's what my my friend Trent, who I do these shows, Nine Lessons and Carols for Curious People,
01:09:13
Speaker
And he's so great at making sure that when we put together, ah because we have about 18 musicians, comedians, scientists, whatever, on stage. and um We went to one ages ago, but now we can't remember anything about it. You were talking about it. can't ever remember. People will say their favourite actor, so I don't know because I was backstage trying to find the next person to bring them on. Yeah, yeah.
01:09:35
Speaker
Every year we try to just make sure that we've increased the diversity without ever mentioning that we're increasing the diversity. So it just means you go, I remember there's there's a wonderful fly expert called Erica, who is is one of those people who's both a brilliant expert and ah also has that great level of eccentricity. And i remember her walking off and she went, I've just realised there's no male scientists on tonight, are there?
01:10:00
Speaker
I said, not tonight, no. And it's that bit of going, but because I thought when the BBC made that silly announcement where they went, we are now going to insist there's always a woman on a panel show.
01:10:10
Speaker
You go, No, you have just created so much ammunition. Yeah. Misogynist by doing that. What you do is you just do it.
01:10:21
Speaker
Yeah. just yeah hope Have we got, and again, it's, it goes back to permission. That idea that someone is looking at someone on stage. and Again, I forget her name now.
01:10:32
Speaker
ah so She's a physicist who's, who's, who's trans and, after the last year's show, she just went, um ah, do you know what I like about doing this? It's the only gig where I don't have to explain anything about who I am and my background.
01:10:45
Speaker
ah Yes, I can talk about physics. It must get so exhausting. Well, it's the same, way you know, the women comics, the fact that, you know, even now it's still, but you know, being a woman comic, and it's never about the actual real issues, which is the the abuse on the circuit and all that kind of stuff.
01:11:02
Speaker
It's always still something about can women be funny and blah, blah, blah. And you go, well, you know, you you just watch Bridesmaids. That's all you need to do. If you watch Bridesmaids. I haven't, but I hear that it's my mother's favourite It's your mother's favourite film. anyone who can still then say and it's a film that's also very moving and it has real but the funny bits i mean to be honest it's probably my favorite um shitting in a bridled gown in the middle of yeah i mean it's definitely top five one of those things yeah
01:11:36
Speaker
But it's, but you know, all all of those things are still, and that's, it's, you know, like all the work that was done by, um ah got Gina Davis, you know, where where Gina Davis, great actor and all the stuff. Yeah. That realisation that if you have a scene in a film where one third of the people in that shot are women, the general production is, it just seems to be a film that's entirely dominated by women.
01:11:58
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Even though two thirds, and I think that's true in so many different worlds, which is this this othering of people that yeah anyone who whines about Star Wars films going, but there's just not enough lovely white men in it anymore, heaven's sake.
01:12:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, my my objection to Star Wars fans is they're not good anymore, but that's a completely different... Well, my I don't have an objection. i just I've got other things to do. Yeah, exactly. It's fine.
01:12:28
Speaker
You know, there's a lot of, you know, that that that's the bit where... Because I've often said to people that ah most Star Wars fans that I meet don't seem to like Star Wars. You know, people like to go...
01:12:39
Speaker
That's the problem, isn't it? I've got some platonic idea of what Star Wars ought to be, and it's just never been quite attained. Yeah. um It must be very, very sad to live like that, really.
01:12:52
Speaker
Again, it's defining your, as opposed to saying, I love this thing, you're you're saying, let me, there's ah there's ah a great word that I was taught by my friend Toby Haydope, who does a lot of work on kind of Dot 2 DVDs and stuff, and it's anticipation.
01:13:06
Speaker
That's nice. the ah The excitement at the hope that you will be let down by something you pretend to love. So Star Wars and Doctor Who are perfect examples of, oh, they've got to say that. Doctor Who is great example of that.
01:13:19
Speaker
Every week you watch something to be let down by it because that's safer than watching something and loving it. And then one of your friends saying, oh, you love that and it's rubbish. And then you feel lesser.
01:13:31
Speaker
Yeah. So should we shall we close by asking the another question? Yes, the fourth question. Because there's a lot in your there's a lot in your book about your experiences so and looking back. So the question is, Tess?
01:13:45
Speaker
Looking back, is there anything you wish had been different? It's a very broad question. so It's it's such an it's and a very interesting question because I often think about that in terms of what age is right to be diagnosed or whatever it might be.
01:13:59
Speaker
The age of diagnosis, you could say. yeah Oh, God, let's not get on to that horrible word. I was going to ask you about West Streeting, but we'll come back to that. No, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't change anything.
01:14:11
Speaker
um the yeah i wouldn't change anything Even I can see the things, you know, if I'd known earlier, I really do think it it damaged my career.
01:14:23
Speaker
I think it did mean that there were things that I didn't do that I could have done. i think there were things I didn't do well that i could have done much better. But I'm also now in a position that I love
Personal Growth and Relationships
01:14:33
Speaker
my life. So that journey to get to here therefore paid off.
01:14:39
Speaker
So, you know, had I known in childhood or whatever, How much would that have changed me? How much would that changed? I mean, what I feel for the rest of the world now, for the new generations, is I think it is really important for people to know who they are from an early stage.
01:14:57
Speaker
I think it is really important for people to feel that they don't have to conform. to the very limited rules of, you know, the society says you need to this, this, this, and this. I think all of those things are important.
01:15:09
Speaker
For me individually, you know, obviously i would love to say that, you know, if I could change anything, my mum not being in a terrible car crash that changed her life. You know, that that would be, in fact, probably that's of of everything else I would just go, but I would sacrifice whoever I've become If my mum, that guy wasn't on the wrong side of the road, crashing into my mum.
01:15:38
Speaker
Because I know that for her life, it brought so much depression and unhappiness and difficulties with being who she was. So for that, but for everything else, any of the other things that I've kind of gone through, i kind of go, well, it's better. The worst thing to be is that that kid that goes, you know, you're 45 years old and the favourite thing is when you meet up with the the the football team you were in when you were at school.
01:16:02
Speaker
And everything is trapped when you were 16 years old. And that's the moment in Amber. And for me, the fact that I still have a sense that things are progressing. Yeah. It's still growing.
01:16:12
Speaker
Yeah. and that and And that there's always more excitement and there's always new things. and um And I think my you know my relationships with with my friends are ah ah you know stronger than they've ever been. And equally, I've also found out that there are people I'm no longer friends with.
01:16:29
Speaker
i mean, that's a thing for people to know. Sorry. I know because I wrote something down at the end. I mean, I don't want you to necessarily name names. I'm not interested particularly. But you said that there were friendships that were based on your weakness that you've now moved on from.
01:16:44
Speaker
And I thought that was such a fascinating observation that when you felt weak and anxious, there were certain certain relationships that fed on that that you've now left behind. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, i mean, the the obvious example would be Ricky Gervais because, you know, we had a relationship that was very much based around bullying and stuff like that. And then and the only reason it entirely terminated was I wrote a very gentle piece worrying about the dehumanisation in his stand-up.
01:17:11
Speaker
And he therefore terminated all communication. and I didn't really feel a tremendous loss in that um because I knew that I mean, it's in and again, very important for some people who might is you will find that sometimes people think that you're far less mentally well when you're actually much better.
01:17:30
Speaker
Yes, that's another thing. People get used to the fact that they can control you and they don't even know they're controlling you. They don't know how. And that bit, where I mean, I've certainly found it ah not merely in my friendships, but also in terms of politics, you know, before because of the self-hatred.
01:17:47
Speaker
people would be very easily able to persuade me out of standing up for something or standing, you know, I've i've tried to, but there were I think, oh, well, maybe then there are two ways of looking at this. im like And now I think I, you know, a lot of the things that I can align myself to, i can feel, no, I'm going to do this because I do think this is wrong and I can't be.
01:18:07
Speaker
But I do think there's a lot of people who will find, and I and i i certainly know there's there's an autistic friend of mine who, He probably, went when I say yeah not everyone comes out of it yeah know going, oh, brilliant, I've been diagnosed, I think he does still battle a great deal yeah with working out his friendship group and who he can be friends with.
Diagnosis, Societal Structures, and Productivity
01:18:26
Speaker
um it's not i It's not a panacea by any means, and I think it's really important that we people like me who give diagnoses out don't think of ourselves as some kind of messianic figure who's kind of leading you out of the darkness into the light, because there's still a huge amount of tough stuff to get through, particularly with autism, I have to say, because ADHD, you can say, well, we can treat this.
01:18:47
Speaker
With autism, you you often just go, this is just how life is. This is an explanation for how your life is, but with there's nothing, there's very little we can do about how hard your world is, unless we work collectively. This is why I think diagnosis of autism and ADHD and running ADHD and autism clinics is inherently political, because you have to look at the wider environment, the broader environment in which your patients are living. Otherwise, what are you doing?
01:19:14
Speaker
um But that's very different. That's all forms of the nature of our mind. It's like there's a book that was originally called The Heartland by Nathan Filer, who wrote a novel called Shock the Fall. to be a psychiatric nurse.
01:19:27
Speaker
And it was about the fact that schizophrenia isn't really a thing. It's a label that is put on lots of different... yeah and it was But one of the most important things that he says in the book, I think, is he said very often when someone's diagnosed, and I know I've moved on to kind of mental health, but it's like...
01:19:43
Speaker
that When someone's diagnosed, ah you what's not to it it's entirely separate to the rest of their life. So someone who may well be going through a terrible mental health crisis, but actually it turns out they live in poverty.
01:19:57
Speaker
And actually it turns out there's trauma in their life. And it is a life with so many uncertainties that to count this, and I think then looking towards, you know we we cannot look at autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, all of these things without saying, and I think you're right, political, that we need to change the world.
01:20:20
Speaker
Because the world is not... You know, sometimes people go... you know It's like if people go, God, yeah I mean, blood everyone's got ADHD nowadays. well It's so annoying. If they have, then we need to change the world even or rapidly.
01:20:35
Speaker
Because to have a world that doesn't suit... So so even if that were true... But it's like I was chatting with ah a friend other day about yeah autism when people often go, I think I'm a bit autistic.
01:20:46
Speaker
I think I mentioned where people go, I think I'm a bit autistic because i've I've got all my records in alphabetical order. And you go, no, that is merely pragmatic. That is pragmatic. That's just sensible. it's logging If you go around to your friend's house and their records are ordered in based on the different geographical locations of where the producer was born,
01:21:08
Speaker
yes Now we're beginning to look towards a more autistic frame of mind. But do not think that order alone, indeed you know and and and I think that's why the politics in other world plays so much. it is This is just a reminder that the world does not suit so many people.
01:21:27
Speaker
And the also, I mean, I could now bang on about neoliberalism and capitalism and things like that because all of those things come into it which is it is about the convenience of the world for those who make the most money from it.
01:21:41
Speaker
And it's not always even the best way of doing it. You know, that lovely thing that Jamie talks about, about, you know, this kind of, you know, the flow tunnels of how he works. Whereas, in fact, you know, people go, we need this done by this time, this done by this time, this done by this time.
01:21:55
Speaker
And it becomes this linear boom, boom, boom, as opposed to you might actually achieve loads more without saying you need to be in the office from nine until six o'clock.
01:22:06
Speaker
You can achieve loads more by looking at the different ways people work. And very often you will see the people who bring incredible achievements, which no one else is able to do, are also the ones where people are going, I'm a little bit annoyed about him. He had to he said he doesn't have a lot of morning meeting.
01:22:22
Speaker
yeah That's exactly the thing. Yeah.
01:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't really matter. i was interested have you met Have you read a book called Empire of Normality by Robert Chabot? knew you were going mention that. Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. don Let's just leave that there because, i mean, there's a whole thing about...
01:22:40
Speaker
Neoliberalism and power and the implement the the yeah um imposition of... um I must get Robert on the... See if i can get Robert on the podcast. Yeah, I thought that was very interesting. Jamie recommended it. It was one of the first books Jamie recommended to me when I was writing this.
01:22:53
Speaker
And again, it's an area where I should have covered more. There's so much I would like to have covered more. I also didn't want to make... It's about neurofacturism, which is my life. If you want a book that's 12,000 pages long and some of it's on ADHD, as we know, Tess, books...
01:23:09
Speaker
are difficult in the first place, as you have revealed. Because this is not a long book. That's the other, I mean, sure i've ever it's exactly as long as it needs to be and no longer, which I love. Look at those gaps. and Because there's so many nonfiction books that are just ah too a third long too too long.
01:23:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I wanted it broken up as much as possible. And and just because i I knew... That's how I read as well. you know One of the most shocking things I ever told people when I did the tour about my book, Bibliomaniac, was when I tell people, just because you've started a book, you don't have to finish it.
01:23:40
Speaker
And don't have to start the book the beginning. You can actually start the book at chapter seven if you want. ah you know You don't have to... you don't Again, all of this rule-bound stuff.
01:23:50
Speaker
And I've been thinking a lot about it with... Because when I started doing shows about science, I would always get people coming up to me going, I don't really like science, but I said, yeah, you do. It's just you don't like how it was taught at school.
01:24:02
Speaker
Then I did a show all about art and art galleries, and someone went, oh, I don't really go to art galleries because I don't really think it's my place. But I saw your show and i went, and then when I started doing poetry, people would go, I don't like poetry, but.
01:24:14
Speaker
And it made me realise how much, again, by the rule-bound nature of our education system, People leave very often not inspired, but going, thank heavens, all of that is over.
01:24:29
Speaker
Thank heavens, poetry and science and art is over. And that's antithesis. Yeah, but that's the thing. is That's the antithesis of what we should be doing.
01:24:40
Speaker
You know, it's it's not about leaving school with a load of facts. It's about leaving school with a tremendous level of curiosity, which means you want to approach as many things as possible. Yeah, absolutely.
01:24:52
Speaker
Well, I mean, that was amazing.
ADHD Research and Community Engagement
01:24:54
Speaker
Thank you so much. time I'm sorry that you will do the other questions next time. No, no, I think we've married we've covered everything. and and And it was just a struggle. I'm happy. It was just a struggle. You're happy, are you, Tess?
01:25:06
Speaker
Are you feeling good? So do you need to say, after you've said goodbye, then reveal this secret ah bolt hole that you live in. ah Okay. All right. So, well, thank you for coming to the ADHD Science Podcast.
01:25:19
Speaker
Robin Ince, such a pleasure, such a privilege to have you on and goodbye. Bye. Okay. So that was Robin Ince. We, again, what a fantastic guest. What a fantastic chat.
01:25:31
Speaker
This has gone on quite long for one of our episodes. So I will be brief. If you enjoyed that, if you enjoy thinking about ADHD and neurodiversity,
01:25:43
Speaker
in that kind of way. You probably will enjoy the rest of our episodes. We have 28 episodes which don't feature Robin Hintz, but do feature other researchers, or researchers actually, from all across the globe.
01:25:55
Speaker
Really exciting stuff. um And the point about the the podcast is we are translating research into everyday language for everyday people, for people with ADHD, basically, to understand the science that's going on as regards the community.
01:26:11
Speaker
um We're really proud of it. It would be really great if people could discover it for themselves, talk about it. um But yeah, hope everyone is okay. And our old faithfuls, hello, all the old faithfuls. We're not going to forget you either.
01:26:27
Speaker
um The ah Facebook group is open. um I know Facebook is evil, but it's... currently the best place to keep it uh so yes facebook uh go on to facebook and look up adhd science podcast that's it until next time which might be a little while because we haven't got real recording for a bit um but uh we'll see then bye