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Episode 19 with Tamsin Crook and Jenny McLaughlin
462 Plays1 month ago
A very unique episode because we have two guests! Tamsin Crook is a career coach and researcher, who turned a coaching project into a piece of qualitative research.
Tamsin can be found here: About Tamsin Crook | Making Careers Work
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Challenges
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello. Hello. I am Max Davey. I'm Tess Davey. And this is the ADHD Science Podcast. And this is our second attempt at recording the intro. Third, probably. Third. Yeah, we're two the other day and then I completely screwed up the record and now we're on our number three.
00:00:23
Speaker
Peak behind the curtain. Purely professional
Double-Headed Episode Introduction
00:00:27
Speaker
stuff. um So today we're going to present to you a double-headed episode. I know, it's very exciting. Two guests. Tamsen Crook and Jenny McLaughlin. Jenny McLaughlin. And Tamsen is basically run a qualitative study, which is not something we've done before. We've not done much qualitative work. I'm sure we've touched on it before. Yeah, I think so.
Positive Coaching in ADHD Research
00:00:49
Speaker
But she did a number of interviews with people with ADHD taking a sort of positive coaching approach. And she just talked to the people about how it was and what worked for them. And it's sort of, it's like, it's not groundbreaking necessarily, but it's the sort of thing that people should be doing. Looking at what they're doing, seeing what works. Do you see what I mean? It's just absolutely really good sensible
00:01:20
Speaker
research and the sort of thing that people in that area aren't really doing much of i don't know as opposed to as opposed to things like medication and so forth which is heavily heavily ah research. Yeah I mean I think people tend to ignore that kind of areas of research where you have to take a more qualitative approach yeah they don't like to take qualitative approaches and that that's fair enough because it's harder to apply on a wide scale but yeah does it does it is important to look at yeah as a part of a bigger picture exactly so let's look at it now as part of a bigger picture okay well welcome all we've we've got our first double guest episode i know i'm quite overwhelmed
00:02:07
Speaker
two people on the other end of a ah laptop screen.
Career Journeys and ADHD
00:02:11
Speaker
ah We welcome Tamsin Crook and Jenny McLaughlin. Tamsin, do you want to just introduce yourself to the listeners and then Jenny will come after you. Yeah, im sure. um So I'm Tamsin Crook and I work as a career coach, which I've been doing for about 15 years.
00:02:29
Speaker
um independent career coach working with adults from sort of all sorts of backgrounds um and I started doing research back in 2017 when I was doing a master's program um and then since then I sort of continued on the research side of things and starting to work more and more with new divergent clients. um And I got my ADHD diagnosis back in 2017, 2018 sometime around then. So it's obviously become an area of particular interest. Yeah.
00:03:01
Speaker
jenny Yes, I'm Jenny McGroklin. I um have been in aviation for over 20 years. um I've been working for Heathrow for 17. I've done a variety of jobs in Heathrow, as you can imagine, with somebody with ADHD. I never sit in any role for any length of time.
00:03:19
Speaker
um But and really love aviation because of the and it's true, they no date their days are the same. um Yeah, I got my ADHD diagnosis um in my early 40s and met Amazon through a mutual friend um and offered to support her on the research by being a person that she interviewed.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, so that's the connection to you in here. Sorry, I was just trying to change the settings on the laptop and the test has changed my laptop home screen to one that has music built into it and I can't change it out. i call weve tried so We try not to have too much piano music thinking randomly in the middle of the episode. um Shall we but shall we so we should we try to be professional podcasters and ask our first question? Yeah, so we'll ah we'll head to you Tamzin for the question. What question were you answering?
Strengths and Success in ADHD
00:04:23
Speaker
Um, so basically I went into the research after I was, so I was in the middle of doing my masters and I just got my ADHD diagnosis. And so I was doing what most ADHD is tend to do, which was sort of deep diving into some of the research. Um, and it was just all, I found it all really sort of pathologizing and problematizing and negative. Um, and I was just thinking, this isn't what I want. This isn't what I want to hear. This doesn't feel relatable. Um, and so I wanted to do.
00:04:53
Speaker
some more positive research and um and talk to adhd who saw themselves as being successful and find out from them yeah what their strengths were yeah how they saw themselves um in their careers where they saw their successes.
00:05:09
Speaker
um And I just wanted to approach it with a really positive angle as opposed to sort of assuming that people are yeah problematic. So there were two questions that I was asking. um The first question was about whether yeah what people saw their strengths as being um and how they use those strengths in their work particularly. um And then the second question was whether they thought that they were successful because of their ADHD or in spite of it.
00:05:39
Speaker
So those are the two questions that I went in um to the research asking. OK, that couldn't be clearer. Yeah. How do you go about what was your sort of method for finding this out?
Feed Forward Research Method
00:05:54
Speaker
ah So it was definitely qualitative. So I basically wanted to ah wanted to get relatable narratives because I think we all, you you see all these celebrities in in the news and in the media, you mr Miles or yeah Jamie Oliver, whoever it is. And I just thought not everybody is going to be that. um But there are relatable people out there that have got a story to tell.
00:06:18
Speaker
um and that could be really interesting and relatable role models for people who are so trying to find out where they fit. um So I basically researched by interviewing 17 individuals, adults, and actually the majority of them had only been recently diagnosed in the last or three or four years.
00:06:40
Speaker
um But they were sort of aged between about 30 and then my oldest participant was about 69. She'd literally had a diagnosis in her late 60s and she was like, oh my gosh. um So it was a really, really lovely bunch of people who were all really open, really honest. And we had some just really fabulous conversations. And I think for a lot of them, it was the first time they'd had that sort of discussion. They'd had that first opportunity to talk about what was good.
00:07:08
Speaker
um and what the strengths were and to be able to talk through some of that stuff. So I think it was I hope it was a useful, interesting process for me as researchers, but also for them as as participants. That was the intention. So I hope it was. I think that's fascinating. I think it's hard not to immediately spring to the next question, which is, fine you know, what did you find? Because i just do that I'm intrigued and I feel like the the intention is so simple.
00:07:37
Speaker
and but that's not a bad thing you know it's you know exactly it's a simple question you went and found out the answer exactly for me was such an me actually it was about it was really about the stories of the participants was what i wanted to centre that was really important for me um and i think actually what was interesting is that i went into this um not Pollyanna-ish, but a little bit wanting it to be really, really positive and wanting to come out with all the good stuff and all the really great stories. But the reality is nuanced, right? it's um And I think although ah
00:08:15
Speaker
So the the approach that I took with it, is it it's an interview technique called Feed Forward, which was developed by my supervisor and co-author, Almuth McDowell. She adapted it for this kind of interview um process. And um the way that it works is that you're asking people to think about events or experiences they've had where they felt ah that they've been at their best, that they they felt really proud of the outcome. It was a really um it was a really successful experience for them.
00:08:44
Speaker
And then from that you sort of draw out their strengths and and their reflections. So it's a positive psychology informed approach. But actually what came out was that there were some really difficult times and that a lot of the strengths came out of the difficulties.
00:09:01
Speaker
So and I think it was really important as I was going through that to really recognize that and to respect that and not to kind of whitewash it and then turn this into a really positive focused piece of work because there were there were some difficult things that came up with it as well. So it became a much more nuanced piece of work than I was expecting it to. But actually, I think more powerful because of that. Hmm.
Interviews and Growth Mindset
00:09:25
Speaker
I think wonder I wonder if it's a good moment to bring Jenny in and ask how you found the process of being interviewed and how and and what you felt. I mean, first of all, some of the things that you might have said, what you feel your strengths are, but also how you found the process of going through this feed forward interview with Tamsin, what it did for you.
00:09:48
Speaker
so i think i ah Up until that point in my career, I've been through a lot of um different HR people orientated and interventions, shall we call them, where they were attempting to get me to align with what the corporate world thinks are the best skills you need to have in order to be able to go up in your career. And I could do some, but not all. And so I'd been left with a feeling of not quite being good enough up until that point. And some of the stuff I discussed with Tamsin around that was around actually having the ADHD diagnosis awakened me to the fact that that wasn't a failing in myself. That was just that I looked at my brain worked in a different way to other people and that was OK. I didn't need to fit into that box.
00:10:39
Speaker
whereby I needed to do things the same as everybody else. And through doing the interview and through being questioned in that way, and really starting to be honest with myself around, what were the things that I was good at? What were the areas whereby I'd seen that I'd been able to achieve something that maybe some of my peers haven't been able to do? Because actually, the way I see things, the way I approach things is very different. And actually, that works in some scenarios and is a strength. And I think this There's two or three things reflecting back on the process and looking back on the notes and that's really kind of
00:11:17
Speaker
embedded that feeling is that I think when you are challenged in the way that those with ADHD commonly are because the world isn't designed for them, you need to develop a growth mindset. You need to be able to fail, fail fast, and learn your strategies to improve and grow. And if you can work with that growth kind of mindset, what it means is that actually you can adapt to ah to a world that's very complex and very difficult and challenging for a lot of us.
00:11:47
Speaker
and you've developed skills and strategies to be able to deal with that growth mindset, because it's something you've naturally had to do since, since day dot. And I think that really came out from, from, you know, talking to Tams and going through the process. And the best thing I was, and I think, I think the the biggest smile on my face was getting the notes back and reading them. Because so often when you in for me anyway, quite often I will have, you know, do things like this and and and ah talk to people. And I can't remember what I've said afterwards. And it's so frustrating because I know I said some really great things, but I couldn't repeat them because it's in the full flow of being authentic and natural.
00:12:28
Speaker
and and and and not thinking before I speak means I don't remember afterwards. So getting the notes back and reading back and go, oh, I said some really cool things, that was really good. And having to be able to read them and see them really sort of embedded in it, because actually I'd said it, I'd read it, I believed it, and actually it it helped me to continue to doing those things afterwards. That's quite therapeutic though, isn't it? Beautiful. In a way. And and do you think do you think that that It's funny, it's getting the notes back being so therapeutic is is so interesting, isn't it? Because it's like reflecting yourself in a positive in as positive a light as possible in a way could be really, it's potentially got very lots of kind of therapeutic benefits. Although I can see how it might flip the other way, but I but i imagine
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, that could that potentially could be very helpful. Tamsin, what do you think? do Is that to do with the way that the feed forward method works? Is that is that kind of I'd like to get more about that. It's really really interesting because ah there has also been research with ADHDers that they are terrible at questionnaires. They are really bad at filling in like strengths profiles or you know all these awful psychometrics where there's like 150 questions all asking something a little bit similar and it's really binary
00:13:54
Speaker
And it's like, well, I don't know what my answer is to that because it depends on this context or it depends on that context. yeah So partly it's a contextual thing that makes them a nightmare to complete, but also they're really boring. So by the end of it, you end up just ticking anything just to get it over and done with, or you don't finish it.
00:14:12
Speaker
So actually, psychometrics aren't that great for ADHDers. And the brilliant thing about this process is that because people are coming up with their own stories of what they've experienced, you are reflecting back the words that they are using. And that's the feed-forward part. That's the feed-forward. So what they're hearing is strengths that they can actually feel some ownership of.
00:14:39
Speaker
because if you sort of show people a list of strengths and say, which is you? You know, often if you've got sort of low self-esteem or you've yeah you've struggled with stuff, it's really hard to sort of say, well, I'm good at that. But actually, if if somebody tells me a story about something that they have done that they felt really proud of or that has been a real achievement for them, I can work with them to pull out some of those themes and some of those strengths and say, oh my goodness, it sounds like you're really good at whatever it might be. And then for the individual themselves, they will hear that and it will resonate with them much more strongly than just ticking a list or getting a profile back on a load of questions that they've sort of forgotten what they responded to. And it doesn't you don't feel that same sort of connection to the outcome.
00:15:25
Speaker
So for that reason, I think it is really, really important. And the other part of it for the full process that we didn't use quite so much for this research is also the question about what else is going on around you while that's happening. um So in my coaching work, I will i'll continue and I'll use the whole the whole um process because that's really important because then you're drawing out what the contexts are that people need in order to be able to use their strengths as well as they can.
00:15:54
Speaker
because a strength in and of itself isn't a positive thing necessarily. it's ah yeah It's a trait, right? So you could say that you honesty is a strength potentially, but if you use it in the you know to the wrong degree in the wrong context, oh sure it can be a bit brutal, right? Or it can have ah you know an unintended... Go you into into trouble, certainly. Exactly, exactly. so it's all Or even something like humour.
00:16:20
Speaker
which I think is quite again quite common in ADHD because you have that sort of um quick wit and that ability to make connections and a bit of impulsivity. um But it can also be used as a deflection or as a self-deprecation. And so it's helping people to realise how can you use that strength of humour in a way that serves you and no you know that works really well for you, what needs to be happening around you.
00:16:44
Speaker
um So it just gives a really, I think, a really rich way of and a respectful way of talking to people about their strengths and what works well for them and in what contexts. So what support they might need around them or what environments work for them. Anything to. Not particularly, that was interesting. So I suppose you got 17 fascinating stories and 17 really interesting
Thematic Analysis and Open Access
00:17:12
Speaker
processes.
00:17:12
Speaker
um How do you summarise and synthesise all of that information? Can you synthesise it? Yes, that was my question. I did have a question, but you put it at the spot. It was how do you turn this, because I assume you had so much information from the interviews, how did you turn that into like some comprehensive data, not data, but, you know, for whatever better word? That useful outcomes. So basically it was, it's a process called thematic analysis,
00:17:39
Speaker
which is where you basically go you go through the transcript so you yeah create a transcript of all the interviews and you go through and you pull out the words and the themes that are coming up and you compare them ah across all of the transcripts and obviously it's qualitative research so none of it is it's not like you've got hundreds of thousands of responses and you can get like a statistical um analysis out of that. It's not that. The point of qualitative analysis is um to get sort of the richer stories ah and the insights from individuals. And then you might choose to use those insights as a starting point for if you want to do some statistical analysis yeah after that. But what I created was a model, basically, because it sort of you could see the different ways of ah how strengths were recognized. So there were
00:18:32
Speaker
core strengths that came out across across all the things which were the really ah the ones that they people really associated ADHD so one of the lovely quotes was um the things we ADHD is do best is out of um an emotional response that was a really lovely one um people would talk about ADHD energy or ADO, so they would connect it to the ADHD. And those are the ones that they got really passionate and excited about. um And then there were the strengths that sort of came out of difficulty. So things like resilience, um you know, they obviously they'd been used to, you know, they talked about being used to failing.
00:19:08
Speaker
And so you you get up and you do it again and you just get used to it. So you can see resilience, the strength, but that's something that they've had had to develop as opposed to choosing to develop. So sort of in the center of this model, we have the you know what the different types of strengths are. um And then we were looking at the sort of evolution of success.
00:19:28
Speaker
So the their diagnosis was a really important part for everybody basically that i that I spoke to. That sort of really helped them to sort of flip how they saw their success. So some really interesting responses before that diagnosis where either they don't believe that they are successful and they'd be really sort of doubting whether, well, yeah know it's nothing more than anybody else would have done, et cetera. um Or a little bit what Jenny was saying about not not remembering so there was one guy who was talking about he he just thought he was always lucky and he was everything had happened by luck because he couldn't he he i love the way he put it he said you know i didn't see the breadcrumbs that i was laying down because he'd forgotten all the things he'd done to get to the point where he was successful so he just assumed it was luck which was such a lovely way of putting it
00:20:18
Speaker
um And so so there's that that sort of thing before ah the diagnosis. And then after the diagnosis, it was that kind of reframing, that sort of looking at your life through a different lens um and actually getting to the point where you can start identifying your strengths and you can start recognizing where you need to be in order to do well, what you need around you.
00:20:41
Speaker
um to the point where though you know there were people who were really, really proud yeah of of their ADHD and just saying, look, when I when i can you pull all the things together and I'm in the right place, you what I'm doing is magic. It's fantastic.
00:20:52
Speaker
um yeah know particularly a lot of people working in yeah sort of emotional response. So a lot of social entrepreneurs doing some really fantastic stuff um because they're really driven by that emotional response to the to the work that they're doing. um So yeah, it was just it was just a really nice narrative that um that you can see in the model. And there's I've got a lay summary of it on LinkedIn if people want to have a look at it. it's the The research is open access. It was really important to me that everybody can access it.
00:21:21
Speaker
um And then I also did a ah lay summary on LinkedIn for people who needed the yeah TLDR. well because it be the whole pay for ah But the the models in there, so you can you can track that and see and see what that looks like. But that diagnosis point was really important for people. Yeah. the did do I want to quickly go back to Jenny. Did you find that? Did you find that the diagnosis was a tipping point in how you saw your strengths, how you saw how they interact with your No, 100%. I would say prior to diagnosis, I consider myself to be broken. um it You spend quite a lot of your time being told what you're not quite good enough, and whether that's in performance reviews or you know and previously in education or whatever else. A lot of it is about you're good, but you'd be even better if. And actually, the diagnosis gave me that opportunity to start being
00:22:18
Speaker
kinder to myself and actually being more of an advocate to say, but I'm never going to be good at that. And look at all these other things over here that I am good at, that no one else can do, the magic part, you know, the things that just come naturally to me and I can do and that i I don't even have to think about doing. These are all the things you need to give me and so I can be of value. If you give me this stuff over here, um just k that's never going to happen. And what I found is by advocating to myself and being kinder to myself, not trying to do the things I knew I couldn't do,
00:22:53
Speaker
I found a support network beneath me and around me that actually was happy to do those things because those are the things they were good at. And what I could take on were the things like public speaking or, and you know, the curious questioning or any of those kind of stuff. Connecting with others.
00:23:11
Speaker
um I could do all of that, and that wasn't a challenge for me, and I love doing that, and it's what gets me up in the morning. If someone else could do my spreadsheets and my PowerPoint slides, happy days, if that's what brings them joy, then that's what you do to create a team, isn't it? That's what that diversity of thought, that diversity of abilities is what makes great companies. And actually, the diagnosis I needed the diagnosis to allow myself to move into that space and not only advocate for myself but advocate for others and be that role model for others to say it's okay to say this isn't designed for you it's okay to say I'm not good at that but I'm great at these things that's what makes us human and I think we forget the human ah so much in our everyday lives because we all try to be the mythical average that doesn't exist and I think the the bit for me sort of paraphrasing my own quote but the the label as it's sometimes called
00:24:05
Speaker
is so I can explain to others why I can do some things and not do others. It's not for me. It's not to tell me what I can and can't do. It's to explain to others and advocate for myself that these are the things that I'm good at and not because of these are reasons. And I think what was important was learning that and understanding and embedding that into how I operate in the world now. I think that's great.
Understanding ADHD Perspectives
00:24:35
Speaker
And I think there's a really lovely um one of one of the other women that I spoke to, she had this really fantastic ah explanation when she got her diagnosis, she had found that she was often getting herself into conflict situations. And she described it to me that she and she were you were sitting opposite each other.
00:24:54
Speaker
And she wrote a six on a piece of paper and showed it to me across the desk and said, what do you see? And I was like, well, I see a nine. And she's like, yeah, I see a six. So I'd be having these conversations and I'd be like, I see a six and they see a nine. I see a six, I see a nine. And they'd be sort of fighting it out. And she said, and when I had the diagnosis, I realized that the six and the nine weren't necessarily the issue. It's how do we get to the eight? And then that was how she sort of realized that she's always going to see things slightly differently.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that isn't necessarily a problem. But having that diagnosis made her realize there was a reason why she saw a six and somebody else saw a nine. So she could take that sort of personal personal personal personal issue out of it. It was just a it's not that they think I'm wrong. It's just they see it differently. And so that was really important for her. And I thought I was really happy with explaining as well. Yeah, I mean, I would have gone for the 10 personally. I mean, these people they just haven't got a vision. Just not ambitious and enough. one Yes, you're right about the the third question, which is, um I think ah you were just talking, um Jenny, about ah how this interacted with how your ADHD interacted with your career. So how do you think, ah what implications do you think this research has for people working with um people with ADHD?
Workplace Support for ADHD Strengths
00:26:13
Speaker
I think, and I hope that what the research does is show the
00:26:22
Speaker
show how quite often we are gravitated towards and work with common neurotypes. So people who are common to us are thinking the same way because that's easy to do. And what it shows is that actually there are strengths to different neurotypes and we have to find a way to navigate that space so that we can support each other and recognize that we all communicate, process,
00:26:50
Speaker
experience the world differently. And that's okay. And actually, by supporting each other, we can bring the best out, the strengths out in each of us. And I hope that's what the research is resonating, that it's not they the ADHD of, well, it's poor timekeeping, it's poor this, it's poor that. It's actually ADHD as great communicators, you know, great connectors, people who can join dots, all of this kind of stuff, which you can't teach, you can learn and develop, you can't teach it. And I think having that kind of that research that that actually backs up what some of us already know, you know, well, I personally think and um I am biased in this, think it's worth its way in gold.
00:27:39
Speaker
okay And what do you, Tamsin, send questions to you, I suppose. Yeah, I think i think what I really wanted ah from from the research was for ADHDers to feel seen and to feel understood. um And I did get some lovely feedback from that, that it was that they that that but happened. um And I think it's important that people who are working with ADHD get to know the person in front of them and actually spend some time with them to say, yeah what is it the that's, yeah where what are your strengths? How can I support you?
00:28:18
Speaker
to be at your best and to help remove some of the barriers sometimes that make it really difficult for ADHD. I've been doing some work um over the summer we're doing some writing around that it's just that you what is it that needs to happen in a working environment.
00:28:33
Speaker
that we can focus on these ADHD strengths and allow people to use them to their best ability, um because there's so much wasted talent and so many wasted strengths of people who've got so much to offer. But because the environment that they're working in, or because the job they're being made to do doesn't play to those strengths, they're not able to to to do it to the best of their ability. um So i think I think it's just about opening people's minds to yeah what what is possible, um to recognize strengths ah and to recognize how they can play a part in actually being really important for people by providing that support and environment. I think it's, I hope that that's what's going to come from it. And it's a starting point for a conversation. I think
00:29:20
Speaker
think no piece of research acts alone. It's all sort of an incremental building towards and I think actually over the last few years um I think the that that you the narrative within the community is much more positive and much more strengths focused anyway, which is brilliant. And there's much more around neurodiversity at work and there's much more um insight around neurodiversity coaching and yeah all of those sort of things, which means that people are getting much better support um yeah in work and you know finding people that can support them outside work as well. All right. I think that answers it for me.
00:29:57
Speaker
What about the setting? Do we do the... I know. I'm on it. All right. More questions. Sorry, I'm a bit tired. I'm having problems with my sickness. So what does this mean for ADHD people themselves?
00:30:14
Speaker
I don't know. I think... i what do What do you think as someone who is doing the research? I think that... what it means what I'll say what it means for myself and then I'll and then i'll but expand it out. What it meant for me was a real clarity that how I got through my career, what had what I had achieved through my career wasn't despite of the ADHD. Actually, it was because of it.
00:30:46
Speaker
And then recognising that allowed me to understand where next or if I'm in a moment or a time where things aren't working and actually I'm feeling stuck to go back to the discussions and the research and the conversations I had and go, well, in that paying it forward and they in those moments whereby I really felt valued and proud, what was in it that that worked for me and how can I get back there? And I think too often,
00:31:17
Speaker
We see our careers as linear. We do this, we jump up to the next stage, we jump up to the next stage, we jump up to the next stage. I think for ADHD, it's very much more squiggly because actually, if you can understand, it's not to the detriment if you're taking a step sideways or even a step down on changing careers altogether. If that's what's gonna work for you, give you that joy, you're gonna find a new passion, you're gonna do a new thing that's gonna allow you to develop new strengths, new skills, et cetera. That's not a bad thing.
00:31:46
Speaker
So I think, I hope, expanding from me out to others, what it does do is justify that ADHD careers aren't
Non-Linear ADHD Careers
00:31:56
Speaker
linear. And actually, that's not a detriment to us or or the workplace or society as a whole, because we've got so much to offer. if we're If we're learning and growing each time we jump, that shouldn't be seen as being a bad thing.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it all comes back to the central point, I suppose, all this was my draw um is that it's so important to acknowledge the difficulties that are brought by this condition. But to focus on the positives, particularly in a career setting, you know, everyone always talks about, you know, you go to the job interview, they're like, what are you good at? Tell us about yourself. Yeah, ah you don't need to say you have ADHD, you shouldn't need to say you have ADHD as a warning.
00:32:42
Speaker
yeah yeah Yeah, absolutely. I see what you mean, yeah. yeah because i actually i white ah think I think what this process does is if you can work with people to really identify what their strengths are then they get to that interview and the response that they give is really informed because they've actually talked about it and they've spoken about it and they've worked it out and they've got that that narrative which they might not have had otherwise so they can sit there and say I'm really good at this, I'm really good at that um and what I really need around me in order to do my best is X, Y and Z. yeah Really the ADHD diagnosis shouldn't come into it because you want an organisation to be you focused on what is yeah what is possible um and and doing that work around, so yeah a diagnose you don't you shouldn't need a diagnosis to be able to say can I wear headphones when I need to concentrate. You shouldn't have to add because I've got ADHD.
00:33:35
Speaker
it should just be like, you know, I focus better if I've got my headphones on, or um actually, can I just sit in a quieter area? All of those sort of things to to help people support what they're good at, you know, should just be in place. But I think what what Jenny was saying about that, um the success coming from the things that you do really well, that was a really key tenet of the research, that the real authentic success that people were really proud of was because they were really using their strengths the success that they'd didn achieveat that they'd achieved despite the ADHD or in spite of the ADHD was really hard won. um There was a wonderful woman that I spoke to who was a healthcare care practitioner. She'd done loads and loads of research, really well published. And she said, I just look at my CV and I just think, my God, that took so much work. It was so hard. And so she couldn't recognize that success in herself, even though anybody else would objectively see there's a list of publications
00:34:31
Speaker
and think, oh my goodness, you're amazing. But because it was so hard for her, she didn't see it as a success. Because I would almost sometimes, for my own CV, say the opposite, that some of these things I've just fallen into. And so I don't think, I don't count them a success because I just fell into them. It's like what you say about the breadcrumbs, though. Sorry for all of luck. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you've been doing all sorts of things.
00:34:54
Speaker
Whenever people ask me about like my own results, I'm like, yeah, I don't know how, because I'm i'm quite happy with what I got. yeah And i I'll probably be like, I don't know how I managed it. And then I forget all of the sleeveless nights. And being good. Yeah. And I just, that bit is just gone. All I remember is going into the exam, hopeful like I hadn't done enough. But actually, and i think I feel like we discredit ourselves.
00:35:23
Speaker
i think I think also we're in a space now where a lot of there's a lot of talk about accessibility, about you know designing for and being mindful of a lot of different, you know whether it's menopause or whether it's ensuring that we've got the right stuff for and ah you know older age and all of that kind of stuff has all talked about, but there's still a stigma and a difficulty for those who don't have the conditions to understand the requirements are just as valid when it's something to do with your mind. Actually, it doesn't have the same weight. And I'm hoping, like with the research and further research that's done, that actually that weight is there. That if you are asking for and adjustments to be at your best, that's as valid as any of the other things that we're already working towards.
00:36:19
Speaker
So it's a sort of tool for self-advocacy in some ways, the kind of the model that you developed to an extent. and Would you say that that's true? Yeah, I think it's, I think what I hope people can do, I don't think it's, so it's not like a um you will follow the circle, you will follow that evolution. It's very, and I think people can change where they are.
00:36:40
Speaker
yeah depending on the day, depending on where they are in their own mind as to how they're feeling. But there is definitely that, okay, that relate I relate to that. I can see myself in at that point. So what is it I need to do to get to that point?
00:36:55
Speaker
um And i think I hope it's just a a relatable way of thinking, who am I? What am I good at? Where are my strengths? What should I be doing? um And yeah one of the reasons I did this research is because at the time, yeah there really wasn't much training or understanding in the careers coaching field at all. um And the reality is that neurodivergent people are really overrepresented in you know in any career coaching um client base because that they often are struggling in work um and it can be really damaging.
00:37:32
Speaker
to for a neurodivergent person to go to a career coach and for that coach not to have an understanding about what might be going on for from a neurodiverse perspective um and so I think trying to trying to build, I think what you can do with stories and what you can do with qualitative research which is much harder with statistics is you can really build that connection and that empathy. And so when people read the quotes that have come from the participants, I think it does get people. I think they're like, oh, wow, OK, that's not something I'd thought of before. um And so I think building that empathy and that understanding ah for yeah coaches, for managers, for anybody who's reading it and working with ADHD is it's also really important that they understand what's going on and that they can see what part they can play
00:38:25
Speaker
to make it better um and benefit from the strengths of the people in their team. I think it's so important to have a variety of oh types of research on these topics because obviously statistics are good for showing the scale and the size of the impact and all this stuff but you need those personal human stories yeah so that people can connect to it and understand you know and this' I think this there's a first bit of qualitative research as opposed to quantitative that we've covered.
Qualitative Research Importance
00:38:57
Speaker
I think it's the most qualitative. okay it's been There's the other ones that we've looked at. Yeah, that's true. There's a lot of stories in this. I think i just i that they were the the quotes were brilliant. It was so hard to choose which ones to pull in because there was so much that came out that I just thought really, really powerful. um So it's worth reading if only to for that, I think.
00:39:19
Speaker
um ah I have a question which is related to what you've just been saying about coaching because coaching is a career coaching or personal coaching, whatever sort of coaching is a growth a growth industry around neurodivergence generally. How does your research and your write up and your model, how does it help the person who is thinking about embarking on coaching? How does it help them to engage with coaching or even to choose a coach?
00:39:46
Speaker
OK, so I think what it what I hope it would give people hope for is that there are people out there that get them and that who want to understand them and want to help them understand themselves and that they can get to a point where ah they might ah So an example, ah you I've worked with um a client in the past who really really struggled to come up with a response to yeah tell me about a time where you felt that you're really at your best and you're you're doing a really good job. They really struggled with that.
00:40:22
Speaker
And so what we rather than yeah keeping asking and yeah putting pressure on, which can be feel really overwhelming, it was asking i I said to her, OK, tell me something that you would really love to do. And so we sort of flipped it to think about something in the future. um And I asked her how she would approach this thing that she wanted to do. And we sort of broke it down. And so from that, I was able to get some strengths there and say, oh, well, you're you're you're clearly really good at logistics and organizing and planning. And that's really important for you.
00:40:52
Speaker
um ah and And just in even in that really short conversation, you can see people's confidence increasing because somebody's recognising something in them. Maybe other people haven't recognised and maybe they haven't recognised in themselves.
00:41:09
Speaker
And I think that's really, really important as a neurodivergent person that you feel seen because I think so often you feel like you don't belong and so often you feel that people don't understand you. And I think it's a really powerful um connection opportunity.
00:41:26
Speaker
for people to to build on um for for what their thoughts are going forward. So I think I would like to think that it offered hope to people, that there's there's a way of understanding themselves better. Mission accomplished, I suppose, is what you kind of, in a way, what you set out to do. hope so Can we do our final question? Well, I think so. OK. So um now that you have mission accomplished, as my dad said, what's your next question, matey?
00:41:58
Speaker
um So my next question is, ah so I'm currently doing another Masters um and Psychology Masters. You know you only need one, you do know that. I know, several, several, it's really important, just keep doing. yeah It's it' the one I should have done 30 years ago. I'm doing it now. This is the avatar. that Exactly, if only. um So what I'm really interested in is decision making and ADHD.
00:42:26
Speaker
uh how ADHD is make decisions what uh what their experience is of making decisions Jenny's just shaking her head I want um want to bring Jenny in on this one she's shaking her head how ADHD is anyway fine well we'll come back we'll come to Eddie and Jenny in a minute I won't bring her into the next bit of research then
00:42:48
Speaker
and smalllified just yourself now and nothing I think it's a really, it's a really interesting point because I don't, one of the strengths is, and what I found is that we don't make decisions in the way that others would call them decisions.
Decision-Making in ADHD Research
00:43:06
Speaker
So because we don't go through the same process, because we don't have the filters or the whatever else. So, so for me, somebody will give me the information and i'll and i'll on I'll sit and I'll go, is that enough information? Yes, no, if it's enough information, and I'm confident that I will stick by what I've just got about to say.
00:43:26
Speaker
That's it. And other people are like, how can you do that? And I'm like, well, how can you sit and wonder it and do 40 different meetings and TikTok. You know, like, just get to it. You know, I'm bored now. Come on. Get to it. Get to the point. Just do this. It's fine. Exactly. So I laugh and like and I do but do the head shake because I think part of it is about sometimes it's a paralysis because you don't know the parameters and what you're trying to make the decision in and the weight of the decision is so massive that you're just never going to get there. Other times you're completely the other end of the spectrum and you're like you haven't done that. And you're like what? big You can understand how you've computed about 100 different things in your head all in one go in 30 seconds and you've decided what you're going to do and you can justify it afterwards when you've had time to sit back and think about it.
00:44:16
Speaker
But you just know. I have a distinct memory of us talking to a researcher about something similar to this. i and I don't remember who it was, unfortunately. Sorry about that. But I remember it being so interesting. So it would be great to see what you come out with at the end of this process.
00:44:34
Speaker
It's still very early days, I need to get it approved first, but yeah yeah that's the thought, that's the thought. Because it's it's important with careers, it's you know how people make their decisions and what they're doing and it's something that is often quite difficult for some people. So it would be interesting to see how that works. Fab, well you must come back and tell us about that when you get there. Because it's exciting of course because Tamsin you're the first your first listener and also interviewer. You don't need to shut off.
00:45:03
Speaker
Well, I think probably other people. I think what's exciting, my in other listening well have to we'll have to, yeah, but we haven't actually managed to get any of them to talk to us. So yeah, that's really, really fantastic to to have you on.
Inclusivity in Construction Industry
00:45:16
Speaker
And and thank you so so much for coming, Jenny as well. um yeah thes What's next for you, Jenny? What's your, because we've asked Tanzan, what's next for you?
00:45:23
Speaker
So at the moment I am leading some work in the construction industry about how we can change the culture to be more inclusive. So doing lots of work in and around that being totally troubles making and annoying and all the things. There must be so many people with ADHD in the construction industry undiagnosed.
00:45:47
Speaker
like they um Yeah, there is um there's a piece of work out at the moment by the Federation of Master Builders that reckons it's around... Not the Lego Master Builders. Just his eyes lit up. It's probably higher in the Lego Master Builders. You're talking about something very important and now I'm just thinking about the Lego movie. I knew that's where she was going. But it was around 25%.
00:46:14
Speaker
and of those who are either diagnosed or believe that they were and hadn't got a diagnosis yet. So it's massive and it has massive safety implications, performance implications if we don't design for them. say yeah Brilliant.
00:46:30
Speaker
Well, holy moly indeed. Before Tess and I, there's always a point every episode when Tess and I start to go off on the tangent and the Lego movies are such a tension. We're just going to stop it there.
Community Engagement on Facebook
00:46:44
Speaker
Thank you very, very much. Had the Lego movie episode another time. For Christmas, for Christmas, we'll just talk about the Lego movie. All right. Thank you very much, guys. Thank you very much. Cheers. Great. Well, I hope you enjoyed that.
00:47:00
Speaker
ah Tess, you're just off to work. I am off to work. I'm going to my job and you're going to plug the Facebook. I'm going to plug the Facebook group. The Facebook group. Yes, so we have a Facebook group, ADHD Science Podcast. um If you just search that up and um apply, then the um administrator, who is me, will allow you entry into the group. ah Basically, it took place for us to discuss the issues that come up during the um episodes and a place where I will be sourcing questions for Q and&As in the future. Probably won't really go anywhere else except the group because there's enough people in there who ask brilliant questions. So if you want a question answered on this pod
00:47:42
Speaker
You have to go and and join the Facebook group, basically. And if you hate Facebook, I don't disagree with you. But but it's just one of those things. It's it's it's sort of the the air we breathe. You know, we ate I hate capitalism. Here we are. I'm off to work. It's how it goes. All right, so shall we say goodbye?
00:48:02
Speaker
Okay, you're you're being so full about this today. Am I? hi Should we say goodbye? I don't want to push anything. Yes, we can say goodbye. Alright, I'll just go back in my box. Bye! Bye!