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Dejah Léger: Remodeling Carpenter and Site Superintendent
26 Plays1 year ago
Dejah Léger is a remodeling carpenter and site superintendent for a residential home construction company in Seattle. She has worked in the trades for about five years and is passionate about high-quality craftsmanship and sustainable building practices and innovations. She comes from a background of art and design in the music industry. Dejah hopes to encourage more diversity in the trades and is proud to be a woman in carpentry.
Check out Dejah's fantastic blog, "The Language of Carpentry" here!
Recommended
Transcript
Career Transition to Carpentry
00:00:00
Speaker
BAM!
00:00:28
Speaker
Deja Laje is a skilled carpenter and superintendent at a residential renovation company in Seattle, Washington. Originally a graphic designer and publicist for a music company startup of her and her husband's, Deja describes how, when, and why it was that she transitioned into a career in construction. Despite starting out at an absolute beginner level, Deja's natural affinity for her profession and very strong work ethic facilitated an uncommonly quick promotion among her peers.
Daily Life and Mentorship
00:00:57
Speaker
In this episode, Deja breaks down with the points of entry into residential project management can look like, sketches a typical day in her life, and touches on the realities of finding mentorship and camaraderie in her field. She describes the differences in physical and mental satisfaction that she's recognized in this new line of work as opposed to her initial one, as well as the importance of appreciating holistic design
00:01:21
Speaker
and possessing strong, generalized knowledge of home construction should you ever be in the position of having to schedule out jobs and make sure the projects progress smoothly.
Education and Industry Challenges
00:01:31
Speaker
We also talk about Deja's own experience with formal education growing up, her personal take about being a successful woman in carpentry and construction, and her advice to people with similar life outlooks who might be interested in forging a professional path resembling her own.
00:01:48
Speaker
You can check out Deja's fabulous blog called the language of carpentry via the link in the show notes below. Enjoy the episode. Yeah, of course. Okay. So I mean, you were originally trained as a graphic designer. Tell me a little bit about that, how you initially filtered into that career path and what motivated your decision to switch into carpentry and all things construction.
00:02:14
Speaker
I started as a graphic designer probably about 10, 15 years ago and was pretty self-trained. I got into it because I've always been an artist. I've always been very creative, visually artistic, so always doing sign painting, always doing graphics. And then my husband and I started a company together in the music industry and I became
00:02:38
Speaker
Like trained myself to become a graphic designer, did a lot of CD covers, album covers, posters, back when those were a thing. So that's how I started in that role and continued in it for about seven, eight, nine years. Loved it. But I just realized I couldn't be behind a desk anymore. I couldn't be behind a computer. It just wasn't good for my health. It wasn't good for my mental health. I just, I wasn't designed to sit still for that long. And out of that,
00:03:07
Speaker
just I took a 180 turn into the construction industry kind of through a series of freak chances, honestly. And once I got into it, I figured, you know, I'll try it for a little bit. I'll try this remodel stuff. I'll try the carpentry. If nothing else, I'll be able to fix up my own house and I'll have done something really, really different and ended up loving it. That's how I've stayed in it for the past six years or so.
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah. So you're an expert carpenter. I'm curious, were you kind of dabbling in that as a hobby before you became a project manager or did you kind of learn everything on the ball? Like you started at a company and then picked up all these skills at once. I started out completely green. I had dabbled in it in the sense that I've always liked being really active with my hands and building things, but I didn't know what I was doing by any means.
00:04:03
Speaker
Like I build my own fence, I did a lot of wood carving, I did a lot of like kind of household DIY projects with replacing decks or building small structures. So I had some exposure to it, but I honestly like stepping into the industry was about as green as they come. I didn't know really not even a tenth of what I thought I knew stepping in. So very much learned in the field on the fly.
00:04:31
Speaker
Right. And you had this really strong instinct that what you would be doing at this company really suited your personality and desire for work environment. And I certainly did. Yeah. What was the original position that you applied for? Was that like a project manager role or did you just kind of start there in something else and you evolve? You evolved it into?
Learning and Overcoming Gender Dynamics
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, it starts. I started as an apprentice carpenter. Sure. Generally in the in the remodel industry, at least that is the
00:05:01
Speaker
the entry position that everyone should apply for. Generally it's a project managers or superintendents come up through the ranks within a company itself. So very much based on experience. So when I started, I was a laborer, apprentice carpenter went from there up. I had a lot to learn. Well, what did that process look like? Because I know typically I don't like to make arguments on this podcast about, you know, what it's like to be,
00:05:29
Speaker
a girl in school or a girl in a profession, but I will say that as a woman, when I reflect on my experience in school and in college and speaking to my own peers about career paths, I know nothing about carpentry. Like it was never pitched to me by an adult in my immediate environment as like a real possibility. So what does that training process look like? And were you working with one individual or a whole team at first?
00:05:55
Speaker
It's a really great point. I mean, carpentry, the trades in general are not really pushed to women and to girls as a viable, you know, place to put our efforts. And I hope that changes. I hope it is slowly changing.
00:06:12
Speaker
When I started, I worked pretty much with anyone who would teach me anything. A lot of it was with just one or two more experienced carpenters within the company I was working with. So what I would do, since a lot of men who enter the trades generally have a background, I definitely was already at a disadvantage having no background. A lot of guys do summer builds with their dads or work on a job site over the summer.
00:06:42
Speaker
It's very much more like pushed on men to that industry. So I would every day I'd keep like a journal of what I was learning.
00:06:52
Speaker
And then I would spend hours each night going home and researching everything I learned that day, trying to watch YouTube videos, Instagram, whatever I could to supplement that knowledge that was lacking so much. And so really taking charge of my own learning curve, because it's enormous. I mean, really, there's so much to learn in this trade. And yeah, it is unfortunate that it's not pushed more as a viable career option for more women.
00:07:21
Speaker
When we talk about the exact things that you're learning to do as a carpenter, like what are some of the initial projects you were taking on? What comes to mind for me is somebody who's doing framing, somebody who's building up furniture. I have a couple of relatives with like very small scale home businesses where they commission custom furniture pieces, but I don't know if that's exactly the nature of the work that you're describing having done. Yeah, generally the re-bottle carpenter world
00:07:48
Speaker
We start a lot with demo, we move to framing, move to finish carpentry, which is a lot more of doing like,
00:07:56
Speaker
the case around doors, the base on floors, crown, installing cabinets. Generally, furniture making, fine woodworking, those are separate from carpentry. I mean, they're still part of that world, but the job of carpentry itself does a lot more of like the large scale elements involved in building a house from start to finish. Got it.
00:08:21
Speaker
I'm assuming you mentioned in your initial sketch of your curvier that you progressed throughout the levels extremely quickly. If somebody were to just decide to become a carpenter, they should not expect to, within the span of a few years, become a project manager. How did you manage to achieve this? Some luck.
00:08:42
Speaker
But a lot of self-direction, too. I really leaned into learning and teaching myself as much as I could. If there was any possibility or chance for me to learn something new, I took it. I actively advocated to be put on different job sites and learn different things. And if someone was doing something I didn't know how to do, I would ask. So really taking charge of
00:09:05
Speaker
of my direction in that company. Obviously I was moved into a superintendent position pretty quickly, like more quickly than I probably should have been considering how green I was. But again, once I was issued the challenge, I just decided to embrace it and take
Company Structure and Career Pathways
00:09:21
Speaker
it. So it's more rare. I would say like someone getting into carpentry, if they have the motivation to move up to a superintendent management position,
00:09:32
Speaker
Generally, it takes a lot of time, usually years, because when in that position, it relies heavily on experience and heavily on a breadth of knowledge that doesn't come until you've had several years under your belt.
00:09:49
Speaker
And were you the only person who was holding this title? I don't know if that's the case in your current company, but especially the first one that you worked out. Like, could you consult with people about various things? Yeah, the people I was trained under and worked under both were superintendent positions. And so generally, like a smaller company in the residential remodel world will have a crew of carpenters.
00:10:14
Speaker
and then a crew of superintendents or the terminology changes. Sometimes it's superintendents, sometimes project managers or lead carpenters sometimes. And then above that are usually project developers or project managers. And the hierarchy works that the project developers or managers will sell the job and build it, develop it, hand it to a superintendent.
00:10:39
Speaker
the superintendent will run it from start to finish and then the carpenters will come in as needed and fill in the labor force. So within the company I work with now, there's a handful of superintendents and we're able to kind of communicate and talk and help each other out and such.
00:10:57
Speaker
Okay. So it wasn't necessarily like a swim or die environment where you were, but absolutely nobody to reference. It definitely felt like that at times, but I had a lot of resources that I could lean on. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. So for people, again, like I'm thinking about, you know, if I were to be in your shoes, if I wanted to enter the field of carpentry and to learn those skills and I wasn't so
00:11:22
Speaker
forward thinking to just like go look for a job in that field. How does one become a carpenter? Like electricians have their five-year apprenticeship program and you know different trades have their hierarchies, but what about for carpentry? Carpentry is interesting within the building trades because at least in Washington state where I live there's no certificate to become a carpenter. There's no accreditation. So a lot of it just is getting yourself in the field and
00:11:52
Speaker
figuring it out and hoping, hoping you get it. So first steps would be just, you know, if there's a chance to volunteer on a job site over the summer, you know, something informal with friends, that's a great way to start picking up a knowledge of tools. Honestly, if it's something that someone seems really interested in, maybe just stepping out on that ledge and applying as a teacher to
00:12:20
Speaker
to something, you know, probably in the residential remodel world and just giving it a cut. Yeah, there's, it's strange to me actually that there isn't a more formalized career path for it. We're putting people's houses together and it would be really nice to have some verification that we know what we're doing. But in terms of classes or a program like what electricians go through, as far as I know, there isn't one for carpenters.
00:12:47
Speaker
Well, at least yet, I mean, I'm really interested to see all of the different trades feel developed within the next 20 years because so many more young people seem to be actively considering those roots as college gets more expensive and current business owners are aging out of the industry entirely. So we're going to need some people to come in and fill those gaps, right? And they're going to need to be educated. So absolutely. Yeah. And I do see it trending towards
00:13:15
Speaker
I'm hoping, I mean it needs to trend towards more younger people getting into the trades. And Carpentry especially is, I think Carpentry is a fantastic career path for people who want to know a little bit of everything. Because of all the things, like as a superintendent, I need to know how electrical work
00:13:37
Speaker
I need to know plumbing, I need to know mechanical, like to be able to know that those jobs are done correctly and schedule them and understand what they're doing. So, carpenter is amazing because we really have to know a little bit about every trade that works for us. So, you know, it's a great opportunity to not only work with your body, but work with your mind and learn as much as possible about the building industry in general.
00:14:05
Speaker
Sure. So you mentioned too that you're a blogger with a specific focus on carpentry. Is that like what you tend to write about is like the various things that you need to educate yourself on as a carpenter or what's like the specific focus of your writing? I had a couple hats that I wear in the writing world. I do love to write about different elements of
00:14:28
Speaker
of the building world in my experience as a carpenter, not just as a woman, which is, you know, really rare, but also, you know, the fact that I struggled immensely with math and education. And here I am in an industry that relies heavily on math and that disconnect between having been really bad in school at it and now using it daily. You know, I try to use it to encourage people to not be intimidated.
00:14:58
Speaker
the more technical aspects of carpentry. The other side is I'm a word nerd and I love kind of taking these terms that I learn in carpentry, which are really strange. I mean, it could fill his own dictionary, the words that the trades use. And I love just finding the roots of those words and why they're there. So that's more of like my pet project just for fun.
00:15:24
Speaker
Yeah.
Education and Trade School Advocacy
00:15:25
Speaker
Oh, I love it. Are you connecting with people locally? Like, has it been a good means of personal networking? Or is it kind of exclusively a passion project where it's like a professional diary of sorts? Yeah, it's definitely more of a passion project, although funny enough, like one of my co workers stumbled across my blog and sent it out and kind of like, wow, I didn't know this about that. And didn't realize it was me who wrote it. And so I got to write in and be like, uh, that's
00:15:51
Speaker
That's my blog. I didn't know if you knew. Such a coincidence. That's so cool. That is amazing. Do you touch on something that I did kind of, I like to ask everybody about, which is their experience with
00:16:05
Speaker
school. And we touched a little bit on the fact that a lot of people have never been properly exposed to the possibility of working in the trades because there are so many merits of doing so, especially when you compare and contrast that to the realities of school where you pay so much for kind of like a dubious outcome in salary and satisfaction. You know, you talked about coming to hate desk work. That's a reality that a lot of young people are coming to grips with right now. Were you
00:16:32
Speaker
pushed to go to college? Did you feel pressured to take any sort of trajectory when you were younger? I mean, when you think about school, did you enjoy your time there? Was it useful? The thing I loved about school was getting excited about learning new things. And I feel like that has transferred into carpentry.
00:16:57
Speaker
And if I had just taken that initial step of realizing that I'd like to be exposed to new things and learn things, I would have taken that path a lot sooner. School itself was always a struggle for me. It wasn't until I was in my late 30s that I finally got diagnosed ADHD, which I think a lot of carpenters are. So as much as I thought that I was bad at school, I wasn't. I was really good at learning. I just was bad at the way school made me learn.
00:17:27
Speaker
I definitely did feel a lot of pressure to go to college, and I'm really grateful that I had the opportunities that I did to go to college. If I could do it over, I would have looked at a trade school. And I say trade school specifically because there is a lot of support for students who go through trade schools.
00:17:47
Speaker
basically to get a job right away. There's a lot of financial benefits that happen almost immediately as opposed to traditional colleges where, you know, it's a gamble. It might pay off eventually. It might pay off never.
00:18:01
Speaker
definitely like shifting to me, shifting the focus away from college specifically and education more generally is that I wish I should could have gone instead and really look at education as a means to a job as opposed to college as a means to like what I should be doing.
00:18:22
Speaker
absolutely or a means to some sort of like vague status that somehow means a lot to you when you're a teenager and really put words to what it does. It's a prescripted path and we just kind of take it for granted and be like yeah
00:18:37
Speaker
I've got to be college educated to get anywhere. And it's like, well, I don't know if that's true actually at all. Yeah. You mentioned the fact that you don't necessarily have to get licensed as a contractor. That the way, the way that, oh my gosh.
00:18:52
Speaker
The way, yes, that you would have promised or an electrician, but when you look among your peers who are also experts in this field, are they electricians turned to carpenters? Like do they go to trade school for something specific or are they trained as carpenters and then they work exclusively as that?
00:19:09
Speaker
All the folks that I work with are carpenters, primarily. I'm trying to think if there's any, yeah. Generally, once people get into a specific branch of the trade, they tend to stay there pretty exclusively. I know maybe one or two carpenters who moved into an electrical, but no one has moved from electrical to carpentry. Yeah, generally, it's a pretty niche-focused industry. If you're in, you really want to put the time in and stay there.
00:19:40
Speaker
But just to clarify, a lot of contractors will need to get licenses in order to run a business or such. But it's just carpentry itself that pretty much, if you pick up a hammer and you're a carpenter, go for it. Well, but okay, even if you're not licensed, I've seen firsthand, you know, through my own bosses construction projects, my mom too, like she's been rehabbing houses for a long time. You can tell immediately who's good at their job and who's-
00:20:08
Speaker
Got it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the proof's in the pudding. And that's, you know, like in an interesting way, that's why I love carpentry as the proof is in what you do. You know, it doesn't matter in this, in that sense, you know, whether I'm a woman or not, it doesn't matter. The proof is in the product I create. No one's going to look at a house like 20 years from now and be like, oh, a woman did that one. You know, it doesn't matter at all.
00:20:36
Speaker
It's very much product oriented. Right. And, um, I don't know if this is the right word to describe it, but it seems sort of equal opportunity. Like if you're passionate enough to actually learn all of these skills, if you kind of did what you did go home and spend hours looking into terminology and techniques and things like that, you can become as good or better than the guy you're working next to. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It's very self-motivated to in this industry is very self-motivated learning. Yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
On the subject of kind of transferring skills and kind of figuring out how to best train for the position that you're in, how did your graphic design skills kind of assist or detract from your ability to be successful as a carpenter? Strangely, it helped so much because as soon as I stepped onto the job site and saw a plan set, I was like, oh, I get this. I totally understand this. You know, so much of my job as a graphic designer was things that were 2D on paper.
00:21:37
Speaker
having to transfer it to 3D in my head. And a lot of reading a plan set is exactly that, like understanding orientation, understanding how to make it alive in my brain so that I can build it in person. And honestly, remodel work specifically is very highly creative work. I mean, it's undervalued as a creative
00:21:58
Speaker
outlet, but honestly, so much of my day is spent creatively solving problems, thinking outside the box, coming up with new solutions, and having an eye for detail. I mean, constantly looking and visually being able to assess if something's in plum or if something's out of line. Like, it's very much an artistic, leaning job.
Role and Skills of a Superintendent
00:22:22
Speaker
It doesn't get called that very often, but honestly, the other one I work with is a very artistic person.
00:22:28
Speaker
very creative person and it takes that kind of artistic sensibility to do our jobs well. Yeah, I love that. Sometimes my mom is a, she's a dentist and she's always talking about how carpentry is
00:22:41
Speaker
much more similar to dentistry than people would imagine too, because there's like a real artistic element to it. Like she grew up making jewelry and doing all kinds of things like that. And it is kind of strange that people don't think about trade skills like that. You need to have so much knowledge and think about how all these different things come together and the way that people live in a space and how things lay out practically and aesthetically. So I totally understand where you're coming from. Yeah, exactly. I mean, craftsmanship is artisanship.
00:23:12
Speaker
And they go hand in hand together. You can't separate the two. Absolutely. I'm curious, what percentage of your day-to-day job is, let's say, creative or design focused? Or maybe to make the question easier, just what does a day in your life look like? As a carpenter, as a project manager, I don't know what lens you want to approach this by.
00:23:34
Speaker
Um, as a superintendent on a job site, most my day is spent actually trying to just put fires out and, and not fires that I necessarily created, but you know, things move so quickly in a remodel world. You know, some, a trade can't come in at one time, you know, what can I move around in a schedule to make this work? What can't I move? Um, you know,
00:24:00
Speaker
in Remodel we're dealing with a lot usually of old framing and new framing how to make these things marry up together and how do I make you know looking through a lot of my days honestly spent staring at stuff you know and it looks like I'm just standing there spacing out but like in my head I'm having to visualize every single step that's going to get it to a finished product and anticipate the problems anticipate where things could go sideways and if there's an issue how do I
00:24:30
Speaker
How do I solve it? And if it's not solvable, how can I come up with like three different options of how to do this and do it efficiently and within a budget? So I mean, there's a lot of my day that's honestly just spent thinking about things and thinking like six, eight, 10 weeks down the road. And so that's a lot of my day is very, very cerebral in that actually. And then once I figure it out, being able to throw all my bags and
00:24:59
Speaker
you know, put it together and make it work. Right. So I'm also assuming that when you're thinking so far ahead about potential fires that have to be put out, you have to know like the skills of your coworkers as well, right? Because they're going to be helping you carrying out the work. But in addition to that, are you also interacting directly with customers like people who are like actually commissioning the projects? Yes. And that's one of the parts I love about the superintendent position is that I am the go between
00:25:28
Speaker
you know, interfacing between the homeowners and the project developers and the carpenters and trades. So I get to kind of be the hub of information for homeowners and help them through the process. And a lot of it is finally being able to use kind of my people skills and helping a homeowner through a remodel process is a big part of being a superintendent. It's overwhelming. It's daunting. It's a lot of emotions for homeowners who are paying a lot of money
00:25:56
Speaker
and going through a lot of stress to have their homes redone. So definitely a big part is synthesizing information and being able to hand it to the homeowner and taking their information and synthesizing it to the other trades. And that's definitely one skill set that superintendents in a management position like I am definitely need to have our people.
00:26:22
Speaker
Is that rare would you say? Like I know, for example, a lot of my peers who are studying engineers or who have graduated and they're in that field, they talk about what a huge advantage it is to have management skills because they look at their peers and nobody knows how to speak to anybody. So if you feel like you're instantly kind of a superstar, is that the same way for you? Absolutely the same. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's carpenters who are totally happy just being, you know, not just being excelling at what they do.
00:26:52
Speaker
you know, and becoming master carpenters. And then there's some who, you know, are good at carpentry and love it. And adding in that management aspect is, is its own component. You know, it's like, you kind of have to be okay with it and drawn to it to really take that role on because there's a lot of management and people skills that it requires.
Project Preferences and Creative Challenges
00:27:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:27:16
Speaker
And I'm thinking that this skill probably comes somewhat naturally to you because you were a graphic designer, right? Which deals very specifically with what clients want. You're a mom. But I could be wrong. I don't know. Is this something you've really had to cultivate? It's something that I've enjoyed doing and I did in my previous career as a graphic designer and music publicist. So a lot of learning how to
00:27:39
Speaker
craft emails really well, how to communicate with people, how to resolve conflict. So all of those soft skills, I guess they're called, definitely have been honed through my career as a graphic designer and continue to be honed as a superintendent in the cartoon world. Okay, got it. How about when it comes to
00:28:03
Speaker
I don't know what the term is, I guess, winning jobs yourself, or does your employer just kind of like hand out tasks equally to everybody on your team, or do you kind of have to like vie for control of something that you're interested in? That hurt specifically, at least in the company I work with is pretty predetermined. I don't have much control over which jobs I get. The project managers who sell the projects and develop them, sometimes they can request
00:28:32
Speaker
a certain superintendent to run it, but sometimes it's just out of control, out of their control in terms of timing. You know, someone's already running a project and they usually go for, you know, the smallest project would go maybe six to nine months would be a small. So, you know, being able to stagger them and find people to run them. So that part is usually pretty out of, out of control. Sure. Okay. So six to nine months is a small renovation. So these are large projects that you guys are doing.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, the project I'm running now is considered a smaller project, and I think we're at 10 months. Generally, bigger projects will run up to two years. Got it. Are you doing sort of like renovations of new, I guess it's not a renovation, but you're sort of designing the layout of a new build, or like what are projects that you like to take on? The company itself will do
00:29:31
Speaker
a project anywhere from like a smaller renovation, like maybe redoing walls, bathrooms, kitchens and such, up to new builds, which is starting from the ground up, like digging the foundation, doing the whole project. Personally, I love, I kind of like the smaller projects because they're a little bit more complicated.
00:29:53
Speaker
Usually we're working with old framing, new framing, trying to get them to work together.
00:30:02
Speaker
issues always come up. I mean anytime we dig into an older home there's going to be issues that nobody expected to to encounter. So those are fun because they're a lot more they use a lot more of my creativity and thinking outside the box. Bigger projects are fun because there's so much more control over the process and it's a lot more I would say bags off as we say where it's a lot more management and less of the physical like doing the framing and
00:30:31
Speaker
doing the finished carpentry, although that's still involved. All of these projects that we're talking about, obviously, because you work as at a residential company, makes sense. But did you consider or have you been considering potentially at some point in the future becoming like a commercial grade carpenter? Does such a thing even exist? It does. Yeah, generally, commercial grade carpenters often are union.
00:30:56
Speaker
And the company I work with is not union, generally residential isn't. And that's a whole thing on its own. For me personally, I haven't thought about commercial because I like that homeowner relationship. To me, that's something that I really value every project I get is being able to kind of very much hone in on a particular client and walk the whole process with them from start to finish. And I don't know that that,
00:31:25
Speaker
that element would be as present in doing commercial or spec homes or something. So I've always been driven to create beautiful spaces and create coziness and really bring someone's vision to life. So staying in the residential world is where my passion's at. So I'm wondering if you have any personal interests in interior design as well. Is that something that pairs well with the carpentry skills? Definitely.
00:31:55
Speaker
I eventually, I would love to learn more about interior design and kind of general architecture. I'd love someday to design a space. Often when I get a plan set, there's already an architect and interior designer involved when it's handed to me, but I still love, you know, when something comes up to be able to put in my two signs and say, what if we try this? What if we try that? What if we do this wall here?
00:32:21
Speaker
I love that aspect. Other carpenters, not necessarily. They like to, you know, a lot of people just like to say, this is what the plan says, do what the plan says. I love to kind of get it and be like, what if we tried that? Step on some toes, let's see what happens. So I think they marry very well together. I would love to learn more about interior design.
Work-Life Balance and Mentorship
00:32:44
Speaker
Well, everything that you're describing about why you like your job makes it obvious that you're a fan of holistic design. Like you have to think about how everything works together and how it's going to look. So yeah, first things and creating that ambiance. Oh, that's a great way to put it. I like that the holistic design. It's very true. You have to have the big picture and work towards that. I love that. Completely.
00:33:08
Speaker
I like your background, too. It's beautiful. The greens and the plants. Like I said, we worked in the music industry, still do work in the music industry. Those are all records? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Lots of music. Okay, so my next question is something that's really relevant to life balance.
00:33:30
Speaker
comparing it and contrasting that to your initial desk job, do you have more free time to kind of live your life or would you say that you're kind of more pressed to find time for yourself nowadays? That's a really good question. Um, hmm, I definitely feel like I have more time to myself in the evenings in the sense that
00:33:54
Speaker
When I'm working, it's so physical that I actually feel tired by the end of the day where I didn't end a jazz job. I felt very like just still kind of antsy. So being able to like be physically tired at the end of the day, lets me come home and relax with my kids or, you know, makes me feel like, okay, I've put in the work today. I can just take some time and really like watch a movie with my children or do something a little bit calmer. So in that sense, it works well for me to have a very physical job.
00:34:23
Speaker
and be able to balance it with a whole life. Got it. And did you have any, I guess I was going to say female mentors, but mentors in general who at the start of your career as a carpenter really kind of helped you figure out how to balance things and how to feel great with what you were accomplishing at work starting off at the trading level that you did? I wish, but no. No.
00:34:50
Speaker
It's definitely like a process that I'm still figuring out how to balance. I think a lot of us are a lot of superintendents that I am friends with and talk with. We're all still trying to figure out how to balance it. Yeah, working on that part. Are there like professional groups? You're in Seattle, right? You're based in Washington. Are there like meet and greets or like association meetings you can go to to discuss this stuff?
00:35:18
Speaker
Um, not that I'm aware of, I'd be curious to know if there are, but, um, I do invest a lot of time with my coworkers. I mean, we'll definitely get together and, you know, kind of have our sessions and gossip and, you know, outpouring and get our frustrations out. Um, and definitely they are a huge resources as well. Yeah.
00:35:40
Speaker
you know, if I ever have any questions, my coworkers are absolutely phenomenal for being a resource. And there's a lot of resources online. I mean, there's great builders who post a lot of content and are happy to answer questions and such. So it's, um, yeah, I haven't found anything in terms of a group, but that's a bad idea.
Community and Support in the Trades
00:35:58
Speaker
I like that. Yeah. Well, I like that you're touching on resources of people online. So let's say for, um, like older kids who are in college, you are really,
00:36:08
Speaker
serious about looking into the trades. But like, like I said, and as you can really do, it's hard to find that kind of information, especially on a college campus, right? Yeah. And you'll find a whole bunch of pamphlets about grad school, but nothing about like becoming licensed in any trade. So are there resources online or like maybe kind of commonalities that communities tend to have where people can go for information?
00:36:35
Speaker
That is a great question, and I unfortunately don't know the answer. Yeah, because I feel like the traditional academic college is so separated from trade schools or from the industries that I don't know that there would be a lot of crossover. That's a great question. Sorry, I don't know the answer to it.
00:37:00
Speaker
No, you're completely fine. I was going to say, compared to any of the other guests I have on my podcasts, people who work in the trades are by far the most welcoming and receptive to answering questions. So if there are people listening who are kind of in a position that I was, maybe cold emailing isn't a bad idea. But yeah, Deja, I'm wondering for you, your time is obviously valuable. So let's say some junior or senior in college sends you an email wanting to ask questions.
00:37:31
Speaker
do you have to see reflected in that email to really, I don't want to say think about them as worth the time, but what's a good indication that they're just not playing, if that makes sense? I mean, honestly, just reaching out in the email and taking the time to craft it is a pretty good indicator that someone's serious. And wanting to understand various ways to be able to get into the trades
00:37:58
Speaker
I will always take the time to help someone out as much as I can. I mean, I think to me, I think it's an incredible career. It makes really good money. It's a good use of the time. It's great for people who have that kind of brain who just like be busy all the time and not have to sit behind a desk. Like whatever I can do to help people get into this industry, I definitely will do.
00:38:23
Speaker
And I, and I, like you said, I think that's the case for a lot of people in the trades. Like we want people here, you know, we work with cool people who want to be here. And so that initial interest, I think would be enough for me to just be like, yeah, let's get at it. What can I do for you?
00:38:38
Speaker
I love to hear that. And it's really it's a kind of a lack of gatekeeping kind of sounds like that. I don't get a lot of from corporate America. Like I'm starting a new position and there are probably, I don't know, a couple thousand people working in this one building. So it's difficult to not feel like a number. And so the environment that you describe sounds like it can be much more welcoming if you approach people in the right way. Absolutely. And it's
00:39:07
Speaker
I think in terms of welcoming, it's one of the most because, you know, we'll get new guys on our crew who are just green as green. And within, you know, as much as we can, people will like whatever tools they have would love to give to them, you know, set them up with nail bags, teach them how to teach them how to do that. Like it's very much not a gate keeping industry in the sense that we want people to succeed in this industry. It only, it only helps the whole to have
00:39:37
Speaker
succeed in this industry. So it's very much people are excited to teach what they know. And it should be that way. I completely agree. But, you know, unfortunately, that's not the reality for so many industries. So true. One of my last questions also relates a lot to people who of course, this whole podcast is people who are trying to align their personality traits with a career that's really well fitting. And
00:40:03
Speaker
I run into just so many ambitious young people all the time who they're not really talking about what they're going to do on Friday night, but like, you know, the five year plan and the 10 year plan comes up in initial conversation. And so for somebody who is that way, who is constantly looking for ways to progress professionally and they're looking at carpentry, right? Or just construction in general, would you say that it's easy to sort of climb the ladder within a company or
00:40:31
Speaker
If not easy, like, is it feasible? How do carpenters do that? Great question. It does vary from company to company, but there's definitely a pathway. There's absolutely a ladder. I mean, whether it's the ladder that's presented, which typically goes from carpenter to a superintendent to a project manager or project developer, there's certainly ladders to climb. There's always something to aim for, even if it's just becoming
00:40:59
Speaker
a better and better carpenter. I mean, that takes a lifetime on its own, right? I mean, there's always more to learn. There's always more to gain knowledge about and work on. Yeah. What does it take to become a master carpenter? Like you've mentioned that term a few times, but I guess if there's no license, then how does work become? Yeah. Interesting. I really thought about that, but I mean, I would say like years and then
00:41:30
Speaker
the skill itself. So I guess it's really peer assessed or maybe self-assessed to some point what it is to be a master carpenter. But I would say someone who's gotten enough experience that they're a good framer, they're a good woodworker, they're a good finished carpenter. Everything is there and they're willing to share their knowledge and willing to produce really awesome products. Yeah.
00:41:58
Speaker
That's what I would consider a master carpenter. There's no like benchmark. There's not necessarily a, you know, here's your certificate kind of ceremony that goes on with that. It's really just somebody who has put enough time in that they really know what they're doing. Right. Well, and okay, I guess it's a strange question because
00:42:19
Speaker
Like when I think about it, if you're a, if you're a construction company, that's not a commercial grade or really huge, just being able to stay in business for a really long time where you're constantly gaining referrals, like you're not going to survive a year, right? As a carpenter, the quality of your work is terrible because people are going to complain. Like they care about where they live and what they're looking at on a daily basis and you have to be good. Absolutely. Yeah. Quality control is huge and everyone, everyone's going to make mistakes. That's for sure. But,
00:42:49
Speaker
A lot of being a good carpenter is knowing how to fix the mistakes that we make and do it right the next time. I mean, we all still definitely make mistakes, but there has to be an attention to detail and caring about quality work.
Physical Demands and Safety in Carpentry
00:43:09
Speaker
Because that manifests so physically. I really love that. Absolutely.
00:43:15
Speaker
My final question for you is just whether you have any general advice, maybe warnings that young people should know about before they go into this industry. Maybe not like warnings in a negative way, but what do they have to know that you can't just kind of get on Google and search? Like what's it like to be a carpenter? The advice I have is that the construction industry, the remodel industry has
00:43:44
Speaker
a lot of, I wouldn't say stigmas, but preconceived notions about who works in it and what it's like. And sometimes those are true. Um, to some extent, I mean, there's a lot of like Banta and jokes and not all of it is like very PC jokes sometimes. Like there's a, you know, um, you got a ton of guys together and there's going to be some dick jokes. You know, I mean, there is some truth to that kind of
00:44:13
Speaker
stereotype but on the other hand the people I work with have blown those stereotypes from me out the water and are honestly the most caring and authentic and genuine people I've ever met in my life. And so for people who are worried about that aspect I would say
00:44:33
Speaker
be ready to move past that and reform new opinions about the type of people who work in the remodel and construction industry. I know a lot of people who would otherwise want to give it a shot, maybe are intimidated, like, oh, I'm a, you know, I'm in these ways, I'm different, and I don't want to necessarily be, you know, picked on or stood out. Like, I would say be ready to let go of those notions.
00:45:00
Speaker
and give it a shot anyway because it's truly a welcoming and genuinely kind group of people. And then warnings would be, you know, it's a very physical job and a lot of fear comes with injuries. And learning how to properly use tools and not take shortcuts is a big one.
00:45:23
Speaker
like handling a tool after someone has shown you exactly how to use it and what could happen if something goes wrong. So not only like trying to be aware of safety with tools and such, but also with our bodies. One of the things that I wish I had learned a little sooner was to not take for granted that I work a very physical job and therefore I'm getting my exercise for the day.
00:45:48
Speaker
um, actively working on my body, like at the gym or whatever, to make sure that I'm protecting my body from future injuries, injuries like knee injuries, back injuries. Um, so being very mindful of, of maintaining your body both from injury and from, you know, future injuries as well. Right. Okay. I had never considered that, but it makes so much sense.
00:46:15
Speaker
Preventative care and yet being really aware about the ways that you're actually using your body and what you're on the daily at work Yeah, knee injuries are a big one and a lot of and back injuries and a lot of it is because we're very lopsided You know, all our strength is coming out of one arm usually holding something or hammering something so that preventative care is something that I'm trying to push more on people and be able to keep ourselves in this industry a little longer and pain-free and
00:46:44
Speaker
Well, super relevant to your industry, of course, but just, I mean, you know, you mentioned again with your original job as like a graphic designer, a lot of us just sit on our butts all day, like 10, 11 hours a day. That's perfect for you too. So this episode, and maybe you are like on a fast track to corporate America, preventative care of your body is still something. It is relevant for everybody. Absolutely. Yeah. Sitting is, um,
00:47:12
Speaker
sitting someone said oh sitting is the new smoking is what someone was like oh man like yeah it's we got we all got to take care of our bodies man get up and move yeah thank you for having me on the show it's been wonderful