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00:00:01
Russell C. Aivazian, M.Ed: Director of Early Career Recruiting at Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL)
18 Plays1 year ago
Russell is a passionate recruiting leader and talent strategist dedicated to empowering individuals and organizations to unlock their full potential. With nearly 10 years of experience in the university administration space, he thrives on cultivating the next generation of recruiting leaders, leveraging data-driven insights to optimize processes and drive better outcomes for internal stakeholders and applicants alike.
Currently serving as the Director of Early Career Recruiting at JLL, Russell oversees the recruitment and support of more than 500 summer interns. Additionally, he provides consulting services to executive-level leaders, offering insights on Early Career/Gen Z talent and helping them achieve their diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) goals.]
This is a fantastic episode dedicated not only to understanding what the career trajectory of a successful corporate recruiter can look like, but about the commercial real estate hiring process as a whole! It is chock-full of insights about experience and resume cultivation, interview presentation, networking with would-be coworkers, and so on. Enjoy...and take notes! :)
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Transcript
Career Transition to Recruitment
00:00:28
Speaker
So I am so curious, first of all, how it is that you got started at JLL. I know that you worked in higher ed for quite a bit. Now you're a director for early career recruitment here. And then I'd love to spend quite a bit of time actually talking about what the recruitment process looks like at commercial brokerages like JLL, because that is just, as somebody who recently went through the process of transitioning into a new job, it's such a black box.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, wherever you want to start. Absolutely. I always like start this answer about how I got into recruiting with like, I didn't take a very traditional approach. But I don't think anyone would ever say they took a traditional approach into recruiting. I work with people who were sales folks in a previous life, people who've done this forever, people who did something totally different.
Recruitment Challenges and Strategies
00:01:15
Speaker
So yeah, I spent about
00:01:17
Speaker
10 years working in higher education overseeing on campus housing facilities. And I used to joke that the only thing that we did was hire and train people because it felt like if we weren't training them, we were planning to hire them for the next year. I mean, that's just how the cycle seemed to work.
00:01:34
Speaker
And whenever I was at last, if the pandemic had hit and they had laid off a whole bunch of staff and I was one of the remaining people that was allowed to say. And I think I realized in that moment that I was really looking to be something different. And so I really took a step back and thought, what do I enjoy doing about this role? Like, what are the things that I really appreciate and really can.
00:01:52
Speaker
can create some value outside of maybe a higher education. And I landed on recruiting. I had originally, you know, I was kind of looking at recruiting positions of being a recruiter and then realizing that you could do it at the university level where there's a lot of companies at the time really trying to double down on their early career recruiting efforts. And that meant obviously having relationships with universities. And I think
00:02:14
Speaker
I had a very unique perspective of understanding how universities and students work. I mean, that's what my master's degree is in, but at the same time, knowing how to run recruiting processes and really kind of put sense to disorganized processes or kind of moving through there. So I actually started my recruiting career at CBS. I recruited a pharmacist from pharmacy school, which was an absolutely fascinating experience. Not only did I get to learn about what corporate recruiting looked like,
00:02:40
Speaker
It was recruiting for positions that were in scarcity. They're declining enrollment in pharmacy schools, retail pharmacy maybe wasn't the preferred career path for most pharmacy students. So it was really unique in a way of like, I got to deal with a lot of different challenges and maybe a recruiter faces once in a while, like all at one time, which is really nice.
00:03:00
Speaker
And I had a peer meet my manager at the time at the Aon Center in the tenant space up on the 70th floor and had mentioned that I was looking for a new opportunity after my time at CBS. So that's how I ended up at JLL. I originally was recruiting brokerage interns and then moved into this role a little bit after because I had already been managing people in my previous role at the university. And so I think they saw that value and brought it over.
00:03:23
Speaker
That's my long story of like how I ended up over here and I, and I've really enjoyed it. I think what's exciting about JLL is that I get to kind of really create order out of what was a little chaotic. We didn't have a centralized strategy for intern and early career recruiting. And I really built on what my predecessor did of kind of building the program to figure out how we can better tell our story and be more legitimate with the business and with, and with the students
Networking and Job Application Tips
00:03:45
Speaker
that we serve.
00:03:45
Speaker
And you asked about what the recruiting process looks like or advice in that and getting into brokerage. I think there's the traditional kind of path into a position where you're applying and then you're waiting for a response from a recruiter, then it moves to a lot of interviews.
00:04:02
Speaker
And then a final interview and hiring at that point, I think we see people hired that way. So I always recommend that, you know, take a look at our website, set job alerts, be the first to apply. But I think a lot of candidates fall flat of like the next step is really that networking piece. And so.
00:04:18
Speaker
And I think networking is such a lose-lose game for candidates because you're sending out so many messages and no one's responding. And so what I tell students or people that are asking for advice on this is, I use LinkedIn obviously as my one way of getting information out and communicating. I know we've communicated on there and that's obviously one way to find alums, find family members, find people that you may have any remote connection with and see if they could, you could meet with them.
00:04:48
Speaker
And I always suggest though, especially if you're looking to go into brokerage or capital markets, the hiring is often done by committee. And so a lot of people make the mistake of going directly to the office head or directly to the managing director and trying to make a connection there.
00:05:04
Speaker
And I don't think that's a bad strategy, but also remember that there are analysts and senior analysts and associates who are helping with that process and have just about amount of power in the interview process as well. And so I always just like follow up your application.
00:05:20
Speaker
always with trying to network and try to find folks, but do it in advance as well. Because you always want to be top of mind when someone has a position open. And I think this business is so relationship driven that as much as you can build a relationship and be consistent with it, right? Like plan a follow-up meeting, try to ask to see if you can chat with someone else in the office. Like never have one meeting and then be like, that's it. Because you've lost them at that point. I think it's that continuous follow-up, but it's a lot of work. It's another job. And I understand that.
00:05:49
Speaker
But I've met how I've seen people be really successful in a recruiting process. Okay. So if I had to then summarize what the process seems to be from my perspective is if somebody's looking to send a resume into JLL,
Understanding the Recruitment Process
00:06:02
Speaker
how does it work? So you and a group of, let's say generalist recruiters will screen that PDF or doc, whatever it is that's sent in, and then you forwarded it off to the team that is position specific. And then that committee then makes final hiring decisions or what's the pipeline?
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. I think it comes from both sides. So, you know, we take a look at who's applied into the position organically and we review an action. Um, most of the candidates that come in as well, there's no, you know, we don't have another system. It's reading applications and telling us who we should hire. No, we, we have, um, ways of parsing the information to make it more readable for us. And I think that helps the candidate because we it's all consistent.
00:06:42
Speaker
But then at the same time, there's also inputs from the business as well. And so, hey, retail, this person asked them to apply. We met or we've communicated or so there's kind of two entry points in that. But if we're thinking about traditional, I've applied in the position. Yeah. So recruiter on that specific team who is dedicated to supporting capital markets or brokerage positions will review the resume and then either send that group of resumes to a manager or to use some like preliminary screening of
00:07:12
Speaker
You know, is this person meet the qualifications of the position? And then at that point, you know, we're often engaged to kind of help screen candidates through like a recruiter screening. But I think a lot of times the offices may handle, the like individual teams may handle that as well. And we're happy to kind of help the business and guide the business in whatever way makes sense to them when it comes to those, that process.
00:07:33
Speaker
Okay, got it. And let's say when someone team specific reaches out to you or your coworkers and they ask you to look for a specific person or reach out to a specific kind of person, maybe what does that demand tend to look like? Are they kind of requesting a specific degree, a specific background, maybe just personality wise or what does that request look like?
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I don't get a lot of other questions. Generally. And I know my team doesn't, I know that the full-time recruiters probably answered this better, but I, I think the best answer to the question is yes to all. I think, you know, really what I've noticed about commercial real estate, I think I came in and I thought, okay, every analyst is like, we're looking for the same type of analysts. We're sitting over the same type of associate.
00:08:16
Speaker
And I think a lot of times the teams are looking for two things. One, you know, it might be a civic asset class or a specific skill set that we're looking for. Right. That may or may not be clear, but the second one being they're really looking for early grade team members. And so they know what their team is missing and they're looking for us to help around that team out. And I tell students all the time is like,
00:08:37
Speaker
They're looking to hire people who are going to be in the team and the trenches with them. And that doesn't necessarily mean that if you don't get a position, you're not the right candidate, you're not the best candidate. They're looking for people who are going to run out their team. And I think that, you know, interviews are always a mixture of that, but especially when you're thinking about winning deals, winning business, you know, and strategizing, right? They want to have the best people at the table to do that.
00:09:02
Speaker
That reminds me a lot actually of how college classes are created. I remember speaking to somebody at a career fair when I was in high school and they were talking about how they get all these amazing applications, especially for private schools on the East Coast, and it becomes a matter of figuring out what kind of people they want to round out the class as opposed to just looking for the highest GPA, certain kinds of major, etc.
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I like that they're intentional about that. I think, you know, and that's hard, right? Cause you can't always write that on a job description. We should always be thinking about that when you're hiring people. It's like, what, what is my team missing? And I can find someone that's going to do that. And I also think it's going to set that person up for success because you're being set up as the expert on day one or the, like the person filling that position on day one, not just a seat filler. And I think that to me, like helps us create more of a long-term strategy for keeping folks, you know, and growing their careers here.
00:09:53
Speaker
Right.
Resume Building Advice
00:09:54
Speaker
Okay. And as much as we can think about developing as a person within a team and recruiters looking for personality as well as hard skill sets, how should somebody who's applying for a position in capital markets actually structure their resume? What comes first? What should be prioritized least? What's the formatting of this document that should be sent in? How do you present yourself?
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah. Boring is best is the best way to say it. There are a lot of really cool or really cool resume templates out there, right? If you go on Canva, if you go anywhere, I mean, it's really cool. Don't use those. Like this very simple black and white, like that's what I'd say first.
00:10:36
Speaker
I hate to be picky about resumes because it sounds like we're being very, like we're trying to find the easiest way to decline a candidate. But I always tell students like sit in my seat and understand what it's like to sort through hundreds of resumes to identify who's going to be great. And when there are formatting issues or like it doesn't come through, right? I mean, that's just one thing that may not work in your favor.
00:11:00
Speaker
And when you think about all the systems now that are taking your information and parsing it into a readable format, using these, you know, new types of resumes, it sometimes catches it. You know, I've seen students who are juniors at Starbucks coffee. And because it just parsed wrong, and it's because the formatting was a little off. And so that was my first piece of advice. Boring is best. And don't worry about like, oh, I need to make sure it stands out or whatever. You can do that in a variety of ways. I did any important things on the resume.
00:11:30
Speaker
Always look at the job description first. I think I always whenever I'm like submitting a job application, either for myself or like kind of working with a candidate, I pull the job application up and snap it to one side of the screen. I pull my resume out and I voice or do it on paper. I always want to make sure that every part of that job description is in your resume and it's very clear at some point.
00:11:49
Speaker
And let's say like, you know, the second or third job down has most of the things that you, that are related to the position. I would even suggest moving that to the top. You know, there, there is no rule that says it needs to be in sequential order. I think it needs to make sense.
00:12:05
Speaker
And so you've got the dates on there and like, you know, and I can look at your position like, yeah, that's the most relevant position. Thank you for putting them at the top because we're going to read top to bottom, left to right. And so if you think about how that looks, I would say, you know, put your most important information at the top as a student, I think.
00:12:21
Speaker
You know, having your education up there, especially if you're in a, you know, a major that is real estate or finance or whatever it is, they don't highlight that. I know, um, and have that on the resume, but right after that should be your most relevant experience in my mind. The other thing that I've seen done extremely well, especially this year.
00:12:39
Speaker
is focusing on school projects. And I've seen a lot of students sell themselves short because they don't have an internship in real estate. They don't have a real estate club. Yeah. They don't have anything that relates to it on their resume, but they've been really strong at say like, you know, but so like their resume is like, you know, very basic and maybe it doesn't like, they didn't, you know, there's not a lot of information that relates to the position because yeah, like
00:13:03
Speaker
you're a barista at Starbucks, that may not directly relate to being a capital markets intern or analyst, but maybe you did some projects in school that did. And I've seen students basically list out their projects as jobs and be very successful in the interview process.
00:13:19
Speaker
Because that's what I think our teams want to know is like the work that you've done. It's not all the title, right? It's the things that you've done. And, you know, even if you're, even if your project, you presented to an executive, right? That should be on there. Like that's what you're going to be doing. You're going to be talking to these people who have these like really fancy titles that make you nervous.
00:13:37
Speaker
So the team wants to know that you can stand on your own in front of those people. And so that would be the biggest thing in my mind. I think the one other piece of advice I would say is like, be very mindful about your white space. So I always tell people like, they're like, should I include my hobbies or should I include X thing? And I always say, if it fills out a white space, include it. But if you could use the space for something else, take it off.
00:14:01
Speaker
And, and I think that to me is like helpful advice. Cause like, it's, it is hard to look at a resume and you like see all this stuff. It is like this much white space at the bottom. And you're like, Oh, you, I mean, then you hear from the candidate, you're like, you had so much more room to put that, put something on there. And so I would always say like, you know, fill the page as much as possible. Don't obviously go to zero point margins. Cause that's just a lot of texts, but be mindful about it. But if you're looking for something to.
00:14:25
Speaker
include on the bottom, like, yeah, include some hobbies. Like I've seen some funny ones, right? And it's a good conversation starter. Or like, if you've taken a course or if you've done a certain certification, like putting those on there as well, you know, if they're relevant, they should probably be up a little bit higher. But, you know, if you're thinking of like, should I include something that I don't know if it's related or not? My answer is if it fills the space, include it. But if it doesn't, if you can use the space in other ways, use that space the other way.
00:14:51
Speaker
So is this in reference to what you were talking about earlier with finding ways to distinguish yourself that isn't resume design related? Yeah, I think so. I think having just a really good, strong resume that you're proud of, I think is really important. And I think to emphasize the pieces that you're proud of, it will shine through in that resume that you've spent time, energy, and effort to make it as good as possible.
00:15:14
Speaker
And that's even using things like chat GPT to help like get your bullet points strong or like have chat GPT read your resume and give you feedback on it. Like those are all things that are easy, the glow hanging fruit right now in 2024 that you can do to kind of like help set yourself out with just your materials. Sure.
00:15:33
Speaker
Well, and I hope it goes without saying, I'm sure you would agree with me that you should not have chat GPT, write your entire resume, especially without looking it over guys. Yeah. I always say it's like write it and then with heavy editing, but I will tell you that we did an AI and recruiting like mini a session. We do these like 30 minute sessions once a month. It was very well attended and I knew a lot of questions about it. And I always say is like, it uses a tool and it's very,
00:15:59
Speaker
It can be very telling when someone does use it completely. Like there's just some things that you can see or like, you just know, like, no, like based on some sentences are really strong and some are like really weak and you're like, okay, something happened here. Really heavily edited. And I don't want to say that as like a way to like, you know, not show that you use chat GPT, but like you're going to be using your own language in there. And so you want to make sure that that's important, but it doesn't know how you write or how you, I mean, you can put as many writing samples in there as possible and it's still going to have.
00:16:26
Speaker
a hard time doing that, but I really use it as a tool. And I think the amount of resumes that I see that I'm like, Oh, if you just threw this through one more one time, it would make it so much stronger. Um, and you have this, and I think everyone assumes that Gen Z is like doing it already. And I know that some are leveraging it and some are not. And I think everyone should, it's a free tool. Um, and it's something that you can, you can utilize as your resume interviews, whatever it is. Um, just kind of get the ball rolling. Sure.
00:16:54
Speaker
Okay, got it. So our conversation so far has been kind of related to thinking strategically about how to organize experiences that you've already had. But let's say, I mean, a senior in high school is listening to this, and they're trying to plan out the next four years of college at the end of which they would apply to a company like JLL.
Education and Extracurricular Activities
00:17:14
Speaker
If you had to, we're going to break this down into two categories. If you had to give a wannabe capital markets
00:17:20
Speaker
person advice on what majors to choose and what activities to do, what would you suggest just based on all of the resumes that have a requests you've gotten. Yeah, I mean, definitely stay in the business realm. And I want to say definitely have like, you wouldn't be considered if not, because I know not every school has a business program, not every school has a finance program, you know, it's
00:17:39
Speaker
So I think I would suggest that as you're choosing your major, if you have chosen before you go on campus, call up the career advisors or the career office and request a meeting to talk about what you should choose. They are there for you and they're waiting for you to reach out because you should have a relationship with your career services center on day one of you being on campus. So I think that would be my first thing is I will say I tend to see a lot of business, a lot of management, a lot of finance,
00:18:09
Speaker
There are real estate majors out there or real estate minors. I think those are helpful. Obviously, if you're looking to go to this field, that's something that gives you a little bit more legitimacy on your resume. But if your school doesn't, or you're just unsure, call them up and say, I'm looking to go on a course for real estate. And if they don't know what that is, send them JL's website. I don't know.
00:18:28
Speaker
And ask what major might make sense because they've got the course catalog. They'll know what kind of courses you're going to be taking. Excuse me, they can help you through that. And then I would say, so yeah, so those are the majors that I think we typically see that are in those professions, I guess.
00:18:45
Speaker
I can't say with a broad brush, anything outside of that. I'm sure we've hired majors across the spectrum. But to me, it's all about what you get involved in as well during school. And I can talk a little bit about that. There are so many free courses out there. There are so many programs that will, like Project Destiny is a big one, right? Where you can literally learn the art of a deal. And I would say it's probably giving you better education than your school is giving you.
00:19:15
Speaker
know, because you're working on real live case studies with teams like JLL, CBRE, Burkadia, et cetera, et cetera. Like that's a great program. So things like that, where it's like, whether it's like a real estate club is doing a case competition or, you know, you've got like a capital investment. I know there's like a student managed investment fund, like that's popular now.
00:19:36
Speaker
You know, really think about how those extracurriculars can get you where you want to go. And as a former college administrator, taking off my recruiter house, putting up my college administrator, you can join a club at any time. It does not have to be joined in the fall club fair. And because one, they're not all going to be there, and two, like, it's overwhelming.
00:19:55
Speaker
But I was just like any clubs that you're interested in or any types of like discipline that you're interested in, get on their mailing list because they're going to tell you when the events are. They're not going to look at you being a bad member because, you know, they're just sending you events and information. But think about where like where you've really enjoyed the people, you know, maybe that's the Women in Real Estate Club. Maybe that's the
00:20:13
Speaker
the real estate club itself. And then think about where you can kind of maybe deepen the leadership in there, because that's a really great way of leading your peers in the skill that you're going to have to do for the rest of your life. So why don't you learn in school at that point? I think it's the big thing. And then, yeah, sorry, going back to the Project Dustin piece, I think there's also other really great partnerships out there, really great work that nonprofits are doing, that people are doing out of the kindness of their hearts to really help build folks' capacity in real estate, when maybe you don't have a real estate program at your school.
00:20:43
Speaker
And I think seek those things out, whether it's a, you know, a course on Coursera, whether it's, you know, you know, finding some of these partnerships and doing that, whether these free, you know, free deal competitions or case competitions that you can be a part of, you know, yeah, you may have to do a little bit of searching, but there's a lot of free or opportunities that will pay you if you win type of a thing out there. And that just, just helps build up your, your resume in that way.
00:21:07
Speaker
Okay. So it sounds to me like demonstrated interest and constant continued improvement with clubs on campus that are real estate related is probably more important than necessarily the school you go to. I don't know if you can actually speak to that, but as somebody who's been working in the capital market sector for a few months now, it doesn't really seem like there are trends in alma mater. Like, yeah, we have a couple of people from Ivy leagues, ton of people from 10 schools, but
00:21:33
Speaker
It doesn't really seem to be a preference. I don't know if you get specific requests like that in recruiting though. Yeah, that's a good question. I think unlike maybe other professional services firms or I know that out there, the way they recruit is in a way it's efficient for them.
00:21:49
Speaker
expats are available for students at Blah University and then obviously there's more that you know it's it's not it's not sacred in that way but like if they're spending a lot of money time and effort energy they're going to want to make sure that those students are coming and it's really not that way here i think we you know we have relationship you mentioned big 10 schools and i'm sure you're very aware of the one that's probably most vulnerable to their most popular in chicago yes there we tend to get students and there tends to be an alumni community within the office
00:22:14
Speaker
I've seen them hire folks from across the spectrum of universities and majors because, yeah, like having the major get and get you the connection with people in the office, but you still have to demonstrate that you're good at doing this. You couldn't be good at doing this job. And it does that does goes well beyond the school that you're in.
JLL's Approach to Recruiting
00:22:33
Speaker
And I said, I feel like
00:22:35
Speaker
after your first shot, the school you went to doesn't necessarily mean too much. And I hope my alma mater is not listening to this, but I think it becomes less of a networking piece. But I will say, still engage with your alma mater and networking when you come full-time, because that's a great way you can help students, just to kind of learn more about what you do and whatnot as well. But I would say, in course, real estate generally,
00:23:01
Speaker
For example, at JLL, we have 300 summer internships every summer, but that is in almost every JLL office at our client sites and remote. And so for us to be at universities specifically and take a strategy where we say we only want students from this university for this internship, that would be way too much work that we put on our plate.
00:23:22
Speaker
And so we find that we are more, we find the, find better people by casting our net wider and really kind of looking at the different types of majors and students and interests that are coming in versus saying X big 10 school has a really great real estate program. We only want to hire from there. Like we know we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we did that.
00:23:40
Speaker
Right. You touching on internships is something that I'm really interested in. Again, because a lot of my coworkers are products of that system. A lot of them had college internships as freshmen. Actually, I think freshmen a little bit too early, but like software junior seniors.
00:23:57
Speaker
It can be really easy to get caught up in those experiences. I've heard trying to impress your seniors, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of concentration going into people asking themselves if they fit into the environment of the company. So as much of the recruitment process is about finding good interns for that position, what would you advise people to ask?
00:24:21
Speaker
when they actually get those roles? How do they know if they're a good fit company? What should they be looking for personality mesh-wise? I don't know if these missions make sense, but it's a two-way road. Yeah, absolutely. Why don't you touch on something really important there? Never go into an interview or any situation without questions. Even if you have met the office head and
00:24:41
Speaker
Um, you've met the interviewers and you know, everything there is to know about an internship or a full time position. You still have some questions to ask and they could be the same ones. And that is
Interview Preparation and Questions
00:24:49
Speaker
fine. Questions demonstrate interest and they demonstrate that you are trying to like, you want this job, not any job. And so I would say, yeah, I think questions that get out that I think there are some boilerplate ones, right? Of like, what are the projects you're working on? What's the culture like? But I.
00:25:05
Speaker
I would advise me when to kind of take a moment and sit back and think about what is important to them in the workplace. And what I have seen students do this year more than any other is ask about professional development. And I think that's a really good question to ask of like, okay, you're going to hire me, you know, on April 1st. What am I going to be doing April 1st through 5th while that first week? Like what do I do that first week? And what does that look like?
00:25:30
Speaker
Um, you know, like what opportunities for me to continually develop, like, what does that look like? You know, even going as far as to be like, okay, so I start April one. What are the things that, uh, how am I going to be measured in order to make sure that I'm a senior analyst and associate, uh, whatever the next position is. So I think those are good questions. I kind of get it kind of like fit, you know, as far as like what your transition is going to be like, you know, I think transition to a new role, like it always takes.
00:25:56
Speaker
They're, you know, that's why they 30, 60, 90 day action plan. Like it takes that amount of time to really feel like you're good at your job and you're doing it right. And it sucks for those times until that point, but that's normal. Um, but I think you want to know who's going to support you in that weird journey throughout it as well. And like, who are these people going to be?
00:26:14
Speaker
I think anything else, you know, I think thinking about, you can ask the general culture fit questions, but I think being very specific is the key. So if you, if being social during work is important, find a way to ask that question. And I can't really give it a good example right now, up and up my head, but chat GPT it, right? You know, I just kind of think about and get some ideas of like, how could you ask a question professionally about, you know, do you, what does the relationships look like interpersonally in the office?
00:26:41
Speaker
It's like, what are ways that I'm going to be able to network with other people? And what does that look like? Do people copy? Do they hang out in the kitchen? Do they, do they do random copy or remember when I'm in COVID when like virtual happy hours saying, do they do that? Um, you know, I think if you're thinking about trying to interview a company and understand a culture to be really specific, be as specific as you are comfortable with, with the maybe one to three questions that you might get an interview in order to build that.
00:27:08
Speaker
And I think even today, if you're getting to the offer stage and someone is offering you a position, don't like use that opportunity. If there's something that you're just wanting to know more about or like something's going to help you make a decision about.
Post-Offer and Networking Tips
00:27:21
Speaker
the culture or your fit at a company, talk to the recruiter, talk to the manager, like they are wanting you to join them if they're going to be sending you an offer. And so you kind of asking these questions of like, I thought about this or like, since our last meeting, I just had this unresolved. That can really help too, because you know, there's no like last time that you could ask a question. Always, always do that. Um, and, and go through that process there. If that, I hope that answers the question.
00:27:46
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think to add on to that is if you feel anxiety about asking people questions that you want to work for, if you're like getting the sense that maybe that's not appreciated, it might not be the position for you. Like if it is a good, you should feel totally open to just inquire. Absolutely. To feel comfortable.
00:28:04
Speaker
I think, and I think there's some like non-question thing you can do, right? Follow those people on LinkedIn. There's like the follow versus connect thing. Follow them. You'll see their posts. Like you're going to see if they go, you know, I post every career fair we go to. I post all the things that we're doing as a team and it's not for me to be fake at all. It's like, here's what we're doing. Here's what our life's like. We know that's important people to see.
00:28:23
Speaker
So look around and see those people who are posting about what events they're going to, what deals they're closing, what news that they're pulling up. That'll tell you a lot about what they're doing. Because I think in this industry, because of the relationships, people use and leverage LinkedIn a lot more than I would say pharmacists did when I was recording pharmacists.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah. Real estate is a networking business. Like you honestly probably should not get into it. If you don't like people, I'm going to be completely honest. This is actually the capital markets. Like you're shy. If you're not willing to go to those events, like definitely reconsider whether it's the position for you, but, or that for you, but, and that takes time. I remember in college, there was a part of a club where they were like, it was the alumni association. There was something and we go to events and the club had had like the faculty advisor be like, okay, go that work. And I was like,
00:29:14
Speaker
What I felt so uncomfortable being like, I'm just going to walk in this room and ask for a job weird. And so I think, yeah, I mean, you've got to, you've got to do the work to demystify that for yourself, but like be good at conversations. Like that's gotten me so far in my life of like picking up on small rent. Like I talk about weather more than anyone I know. Um, but people love talking about the weather. So that's my starting piece. I talk about the dog. I talk about personal, you know, I think.
00:29:36
Speaker
that's ways that you can help make that not as nerve-wracking if you're like, I like it, but I hate it. I'm going to help calm the anxieties inside yourself. Wait, Russell, that actually, I mean, I wasn't anticipating asking about this, but it's a huge talking point and you worked in higher ed.
00:29:55
Speaker
There is a trend I've noticed that even a lot of my past guests have called out in young people feeling a little bit more socially anxious, a little bit less willing to get out there just when it comes to meeting other people. And this is a case in point for a lot of college campuses, right? So if you had to give advice to like a typical Gen Z'er when it comes to like just getting better at networking, getting better with speaking to people and having those small talk conversations that develop into
00:30:22
Speaker
better relationships, what would those be? Small things, big things, any advice? I would say start small. The biggest disservice you're going to do to yourself is showing up to a 100-person networking event expecting to burn it. Start by asking your professor to meet with you one-to-one to talk about
00:30:44
Speaker
their career, right? Or start with, you know, if they're seniors in a club you're in, like take them out for coffee and just ask them questions about what, you know, classes they're in, what they're doing. You know, and so I think start small with that because in the day, like, yeah, it's a big event. And, you know, it's always good to know someone so you can kind of like start conversations with a variety of people. But like part of being comfortable in those large situations is being comfortable in yourself that you know that
00:31:12
Speaker
You can go to any table and ask any question and start a conversation and build a report with someone. Now, like you're not going to vibe with every person. Like sometimes the vibes are off and I get that and that's okay. But I think it's, yeah, that would be my biggest piece of advice. Like start small there. And because I think that, because I go back to my original example, like that's why networking felt so unapproachable to me. It was in this vein of like, I'm at this networking, I'm going to go network so that way someone can find me a job.
00:31:38
Speaker
And I have to see my elevator pitch. And then I have to look and stare in their eyes. That was such a disservice to me. And I think I learned more by going to parties in my parents' house than anything else in networking, to be completely honest with you. And even if you think about when you're out at a social event that isn't even a networking event, pick someone new that you don't know and get to know them. Because that
00:32:06
Speaker
being comfortable with that will help you in a networking event or networking session or whatever if you still truly are worried or like you get that meeting with someone you're like really really nervous prepare for it you know don't make it robotic but like write down the questions that you want to know what do you want to know about this person like what if you if you were to leave the meeting
00:32:24
Speaker
knowing one thing about the person, this person, and that would make you successful. What would it be? And, you know, the one thing that I always have, I'm always like, I'm covered with is when you're done with the meeting, ask someone if they could introduce you to someone else. And it's like, I'm so nervous. I asked them, I need to be better at it. But that's a cool way to like, if let's say you do get that one networking meeting with someone at JLL with the dream office you want to work with.
00:32:49
Speaker
If you leave the conversation and you don't talk to that person again, like you've done yourself a disservice, you've done, you know, this work for nothing. Like, Hey, like you talked about all these like cool deals that teams are doing. Like, could you put me in touch with someone that is doing that? I'd love to hear more about it, right? Like you can make it natural, but it's kind of the art of doing it. But I think it's just one way of like, you can start small and stay small. Um, I just kind of like continue to connect, connect the dots and just be curious about someone and what they do.
00:33:14
Speaker
Right, guys, it's like dating. Like, if you're on a first date, make the next plan. Otherwise, it doesn't go anywhere, right? Like, this is common sense. Yeah, and don't do the like, this was great. I'd love to see you again sometime. Like, be, like, get the next thing.
00:33:29
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Do you do any in-person interviewing yourself or do you have any tips, I guess, most importantly about what not to do when you're actually sitting in front of a managing director or recruiter or anything like that? Good question.
00:33:44
Speaker
We don't, as far as like a standard practice at all, we don't, we don't do an interview day. Um, I know some offices may do it or an option. I think it's always hard because if you're going to, you know, it's that work with internships, if you're going to get your summer internship in Chicago, but you're going to school in Washington, DC, we wouldn't require you to come out to Chicago to get the interview done. So we really leverage that virtual platform. But I think if you are doing something in person or you're coming for in person interview, I think really first impressions are just so important.
00:34:10
Speaker
And you've got to think about like, we always tell students when they do our video interviewing, like our one-way video interviewing, you can wear what you want. It doesn't matter because truly I'm listening to what you're saying. And I'm not really watching because I'm writing it down. I'm trying to get notes. I'm trying to get the high points, right? Me, you being a t-shirt versus you being a suit doesn't change my opinion about how you, while you're doing in the, and the expectations you have.
00:34:35
Speaker
But if you're going to that in-person component, you're literally going to be sitting across the table from someone, first impressions are so, so important. And I know there's a lot of language and bias around types of clothing and clothing that people should wear. I think that my advice is that you should meet the occasion, but stay true to yourselves.
00:34:52
Speaker
And, you know, the occasion is like, you want to put your best foot forward. And so, you know, really thinking about what that might look like as far as your appearance and what, and putting your best foot forward there, right? Especially if someone's bringing the office, like it's kind of somewhat rare a little bit these days. I feel like I hear about it, but I like, I think people have leveraged online a little bit more.
00:35:10
Speaker
But I would even say it for video interviews, right? Like, you know, just because our prerecorded video interviews are like, wherever you want. Like if you literally are going to be singing across from a live person on a computer screen, it shouldn't be as if you are sitting across from them at a table, at a physical table. So that's a big thing. I think the other thing is just.
00:35:27
Speaker
have your notes ready. You know, I think that is one thing, like it is totally okay to pull out your padfolio or whatever you take notes and open it up and have it in front of you while you are, while you are interviewing with someone. I've never heard a piece of feedback from manager that was like, they looked off their notes.
00:35:44
Speaker
Let's go through some interviews too. I've never actually heard that. Maybe it has happened, but I think when I'm applying for a role, what I do is I write two parts of a paper down for every interview I'm about to have. Why this role, why this company? And I write at the top. I want reasons as to why this position is so important to me, but most importantly, why this company is important to me. And at the bottom, I write my three questions for the interviewer that I have.
00:36:14
Speaker
And I, I'm in higher ed, I used to go through like six on-campus interviews to get jobs. It was wild. And so I literally have six pages of like, why this role? And even though it was the same, why this role, why this company or why this university? I had the questions were different and like, and so that way I was like prepared. I have to worry about it. The other thing I tell people is like, if there is one example or projects or.
00:36:38
Speaker
bright spot in your career that you want everyone to know about, write it down. Have it inside of you, right? Or have the two or three amazing projects that you could really like answer any question using that project and have it written down in front of you. Because if you run into like your brain fart or whatever, you'll have it in front of you. And I always tell students, I'm like, you're
00:37:00
Speaker
the thing that makes you light up, you're going to be able to find a way to connect it to the answer that they're asking. Especially if you're like, I wasn't really sure. You'll be able to mold it for the most part and be able to use that experience or parts of that experience in answering it. I think my advice probably goes for both in-person and virtual. I think for that in-person experience,
00:37:22
Speaker
ask, use every opportunity to ask questions. If they're going to say you're on the office tour, like ask certain questions about, Oh, like, do people hang out here? Like, what do people do? Like, I get nervous when I get on tours for an interview. I would say like, personally, like it's, it is weird, right? You're like, Oh, that's great. Oh, cool. Like, you know, but like I have, how I found I've been more comfortable or like the conversation feels a little more natural is like, it's just those questions of like, Oh, do like, do they show you a conference or like, what types of meetings do you have in here? Or like, you know, whatever might be views. Great.
00:37:48
Speaker
You know, anything that can help leave that alarm. So I kind of got a tangent there, but yeah, I mean, like preparing is the most important piece and, but having notes in front of you is never a bad thing, you know, but make sure that you are as natural as possible and as you as possible when you're in that interview.
00:38:05
Speaker
Great. So don't be robotic. And something I'm also taking away from your words here is it's important to remember that the person that you're sitting across, whether virtually or in person is also a person. And a lot of the times, like they might not be
00:38:20
Speaker
the best at interviewing. Like they might be nervous than you about asking questions. There's this whole like interview should feel like a conversation. I always laugh at that because I don't think I've ever, even in my best interviews, I've never like left me like it was like a conversation. Like I think I get the idea behind that, that they got right, but like it's an interview, right? They're gonna, well, the first person I asked you like, why this, tell me about yourself and why do you want this position? Then, and then they go from there. It's like busy back and forth. And very rarely do I ever go into interviews where it's like,
00:38:50
Speaker
Like, you know, I've seen good interviewers never have a question written down. Like literally they're there to be like, Oh, you told me about yourself. And then once you say something like, Oh, I want to hear more about your experience at CV. Um, like, what did you do there? You know, and, and they've been really successful at that. I've seen successful interviewers like written questions. So I think, yeah, I mean, interviewing is a lost art. Um, I feel like of it is hard to do. And it's someone that does a lot of interviews. Like I find myself.
00:39:15
Speaker
fumbling over by words and fumbling over the experience every time. And that's fine. But putting your best forward is the most important piece. That person's not going to be like, wow, I interviewed poorly today. They're going to be wanting your performance on that. Well, okay. So, but I feel like the impression that every candidate has of how an interview went all stems from the initial question typically asked that you touched on, tell me about yourself.
00:39:38
Speaker
I mean, that is something that you can so easily stumble through or feel awkward about because you've probably rehearsed it 300 times in front of the mirror. You should have rehearsed it. Let me just underline that though. You should know what to say if somebody asks. Absolutely. But how would you, like if you were interviewing, I keep saying for a capital markets position because this is my most recent experience, but how would you frame that answer?
00:40:00
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, I think it goes back to what I said before about writing down like why this job, why this company, like really kind of grounding yourself in that. I think the biggest mistake that I see people make when they're introducing themselves is, is missing that piece about you are interviewing for a job at this company. So use that as a strategic, even if someone's like, Hey, tell them about yourself, use that as a strategic opportunity. Like don't answer the question and then some, right?
00:40:25
Speaker
Every answer to your question should relate back to the job in some way. And I can't tell you how like, you know, we, we have these generic, somewhat generic, but specific interview questions for prerecorded video interviewing that I was talking about, like the one way video interviewing. And I, the candidates that are more successful on that are the ones that even though the questions like tell me about a project, they connect it back to the job that they're applying for.
00:40:49
Speaker
And some people get lost and like, I'm going to tell you about this project. Cause like, it's at the top of my mind and whatever. And then it's like, and then it ended and it was great. And we got an A. Like always connect it back, like always connect it back to what you're doing. Right. I think look at that's where it's like knowing the job description, knowing why you want the job, like that can really help ground you there. I think when you're introducing yourself, you know, don't spend too much time on like.
00:41:10
Speaker
you know, the, the jobs you've had or like really don't spend a lot of time kind of explaining everything. Like they've got your resume in front of you and some of them, they can ask questions about it specifically, but really think about like, what's the high level overview? What's the trailer of the, of your life that you want them to know? So for me specifically, like I always pull the.
00:41:29
Speaker
You know, whenever I, I just like when I did with you, you know, made Russell of Asia and I'm, you know, working early career recruiting. I kind of fell into recruiting in a weird way or in a non traditional way, but who falls into a tradition like that is literally how I started and, and go from there. You know, and, and I use that as an experience, say, I spent 10 years in higher education and that helps me leverage relationships to universities in my current position in XYZ ways.
00:41:53
Speaker
And in those two sentences, they've learned everything that I needed them to know about me. And now I'm talking about why I'm going to be the right fit for that job. And so don't worry about being like, I'm this person. I go to this school. I have this major. I have this GPA. I've taken these classes. I've had these internships. I've had these things.
00:42:09
Speaker
You know, really kind of saying like, hi, I'm, you know, I'm Russell and I am a senior at Seattle university, go Red Hawks. And, you know, I am studied real estate and I'm really excited for, and I've really been really passionate over the last few years about XYZ things at an internship last summer. And I got to see those passions and I'm excited to help build that more with you as well. So I think I just did that pretty naturally. And I know it, not everyone can, you've got to do some work, but you know,
00:42:37
Speaker
think about, you know, it's like, say, say more with us thing, but at the same time, like, they want to know about you, but they also want to know, like, you are you in this role, right? You can start paying that picture for him.
00:42:49
Speaker
Is there a cap to how personal you should get when it comes to tying in that diversity of individual experience? I mean, I think every interviewer knows that I have a dog. You know, I think I made some things firstly, but like I just drop in there because it's fun. And then if someone's like also a dog lover or they could totally like latch on to.
00:43:12
Speaker
No, I don't think there's a specific thing I would say. Pay attention to the interviewers while they're interviewing you. The moment they put their pen down, you've talked too long.
00:43:22
Speaker
Unless they do that like pen down, really interested look thing. But the moment they've stopped writing something, you've lost their train of thought. And at least that's when I'm like writing on notes and your viewers, like once someone's got a little long and I'm like kind of staring and just have my pen down, I'm waiting for them to wrap up. And I'm not trying to say that to be rude or anything like that, but I think it's important to remember the, to really read your interviewers in that moment as well and kind of wrap up. So if you feel like.
00:43:45
Speaker
If you feel like you're rambling might be, but, you know, if you like worry that maybe you're too personal, like play off of the body language that the interviewers have in that moment. But, you know, obviously they're, they're sensitive questions. Interviewers shouldn't ask you and you should be familiar with those things. But, you know, I think.
00:44:02
Speaker
I, depending on what I'm asked, you know, in a, in a first interview, or even if it's like, just tell me about yourself. I'm like, yeah, I've got like, I live in Lakeview. I've got this dog, you know, getting married in August. Like, you know, I will go into it. I mean, I'm not going to go too deep, but you know, to me, I think that tell, if, if knowing a little bit more about me personally really helps to make that decision, like it's actually kind of the culture I'd want to be in. It's like, I want people to be able to do a small talk at the beginning of a meeting and we're able to talk about the weather. So.
00:44:30
Speaker
I love it. I love it. Russell, do you have any other insights whatsoever for college students who are interested in getting into real estate? I mean, whether it means to resume, interviewing majors, being social and kinds of people. I think my biggest thing is leverage the tools you have. And the biggest thing right now, the big two things that I always tell students is LinkedIn and chat GPT.
00:44:56
Speaker
LinkedIn is the easiest way for you to know who's in the industry, follow them and hear all those things. We talked about interviews, capital markets, producers, and you know, office heads talk about the deals that they're doing all the time. And that is something you can bring into a question. I heard that you just closed on.
00:45:12
Speaker
this property, like, what was that like? Or like, that's cool. Like, did you work with the team? Like, even if they don't know the fact that you did that work, it just, it just sets you apart from everyone else versus the like, I heard your sustainability goals are great. You know, it's like that specific, like I did my research and just so important. And even if you can't get a meeting with that person, but you see their information on your feed, do it.
00:45:34
Speaker
I think, so that's, that's, that's the one thing it's like, use that as your, as a way to help build your network. And that's what it is. And I, but I think going to realistically, I'm trying to be really good. I answer every message I get on LinkedIn. I get a lot of them. I cannot spend 15 minutes at a coffee session with every person I meet with, but I will have spent the time to answer your questions on LinkedIn. And, uh, because I'll do them in meetings where I probably should be paying attention, but I'm
00:46:00
Speaker
Um, but I will always spend the time to make sure your questions are answered because like for me, that's really important. I don't want to ghost anyone, but not everyone does that. And so don't be afraid if people, if you send out a message, you don't hear anything because it is not personal whatsoever. Some people are on it every day and take meetings. Some people are on it, but like just disregard messages. And some people are, have a profile and never looked at it.
00:46:24
Speaker
And so never stop thinking, like trying to connect. And if that's the strategy you can use, never stop doing it because the repetition will help you. But also like you may get one copy chat out of every 10 you ask for, and that's pretty successful.
00:46:40
Speaker
But think about it when you're doing cold calls or you're trying to win a deal. That is the type of skill you're going to need to know to set yourself apart. Then the second thing is with the chat GBT thing and large language learning models or whatever they're called, you've got that at your disposal as another third-party person to look at a resume, to look at questions, to help you get ideas starting to flow.
00:47:05
Speaker
And I was in a session a couple of months ago where the person said that our jobs are not going to be replaced by AI. We're going to be replaced by people who don't use AI in their jobs. And I think learn and be successful at how that works. It is not just a tool for writing your paper when you don't want to write it. It's actually very valuable to help get things off the ground or look at things in a very different way.
00:47:29
Speaker
And last thing I would say is like follow up is always, always, always important, you know, thanking people for their time, thanking people for interviews, you know, especially if you're meeting with someone in person, just an email thing, you know, just goes a long way. And in my case, I forward those to the manager, I forward those to the people that are making an decision to say, Hey, just let you know that this person said thank you now. Those are things that go really a long way and kind of set yourself apart as well.
00:47:51
Speaker
Right. I do want to underline that really quick. Producers get guys hundreds of emails a day. Like if you don't hear that from somebody, please resend. I mean, I love what you're saying. More people to your tagline so that they make sure you make sure that everybody knows that you've been reaching out. So.
00:48:07
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I appreciate your color on that because I think a lot of people just like freaked out the two people and then don't hear back and then hear about it and like, well, no one's responding. And I'm like, you know, you do, I mean, you have to say your expectations somewhat low, but you know, persistence is key with that. And especially if you're going to start.
00:48:24
Speaker
If for the freshmen on the call, right? If you're a college seniors, if you're starting day one, like you're going to get more and more successful at that every single year you do it, but you've got to plan for it. You've got to have a strategy. You've got to know how to reach out to it. You're going to end up mindlessly doing it with no strategy in place.
00:48:39
Speaker
Right. Yeah, completely agree. One last question, actually, and this popped into my mind as I was thinking about an upcoming Eisenberg Foundation event here in Chicago. When you look at resumes and when you look at sort of references for people coming through to JLL, are there certain groups, networking events you tend to get a lot of people out of?
00:49:00
Speaker
For audiences, the Harold E. Eisenberg Foundation that I just referenced is wonderful. They have a lot of great mentors, like day-long shadowing programs that you can do for people in commercial real estate. REF is wonderful too for women in real estate finance, but I'm not sure, Russell, if you have any more organizations to add to that list.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think from our perspective, I mean, we work closely with project destiny. I think that's a big one. I know that's a, you know, you have to apply to some of their programs. So I get, you know, not everyone would be able to be able to do that. I think real estate clubs are important or like clubs or organizations that you're in to make sure you're naming those because, you know, there might be connections there.
00:49:36
Speaker
I can't think of any other organizations, but that shouldn't, that should not, the audience shouldn't take things off their resume because I don't know what they are. I think the other day, like if you're in a local organization like Eisenberg, for example, someone in that local office is going to know what that is or is involved. And so like Eisenberg is one of those things of like, it's important, very important Chicago area. And I know I've worked with a couple of folks on the brokerage side of, you know, their support of that foundation. But for me, I, as a recruiter, like I know about it. I don't know much about it.
00:50:06
Speaker
But I know that, but the brokers do and the people making the decisions know a lot. So, especially if you're involved in some of that locally, definitely make sure that's included in your outreach and your materials and things like that. Yeah. Don't count out any experiences there to seek out as many as you possibly can that are of substance. Absolutely. No, absolutely. Russell, thank you so much. This was... Of course. ...helpful and I'm excited to get it out there. Yeah, absolutely. Happy to help and hopefully we can attract some more people over the field.