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Managing Tool Inventory & The Kern Had A Little Accident
240 Plays6 years ago
John might have had a little hiccup on the Kern. A work piece flew out of the vise. Don't worry, everything is good! The Boys also had a great chat about managing tool inventory in a shop. With some great references and a video that can be found here. John & John also chat in length about 5 axis parts and the qwerks of Fusion 360!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Business of Machining'
00:00:00
Speaker
Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining episode 169. My name is John Saunders. And my name is John Grimsmo. This is a podcast where two entrepreneurs talk about all things business. That's all I got.
Learning from Machining Mishaps
00:00:18
Speaker
How are you doing? Good, how are you? I'm excellent. I've been playing a lot on the current lately and having so much fun.
00:00:29
Speaker
I saw unfortunately the bad side, hoping that there's a bunch of good as well in there. Yeah, I've certainly had some learning moments. I still don't get that. So I was gripping the part in the dovetail jaws, but without a dovetail. And yeah, it just slipped right out, very unfortunately, on the first operation.
00:00:58
Speaker
but uh you were holding the part uh like at the bottom of a deck of playing cards with the playing cards upright that kind of orientation more on the side of the playing cards i think the piece was square um but yes okay and a little and a face mill pulled it out huh
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of a bummer. No damage other than a little chip of paint on the Kern.
Tool Choice and Material Impact on Machining
00:01:23
Speaker
However, I milled the dovetail into it and then I just confidence went up tenfold because I'm like, oh, clearly now it's like it's in there. It's not going anywhere.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I'm inclined to say, I wish it hadn't, well, it's always, you always learn. My thought is to push more of the blame or causality onto the tool than it would be the vice. Could be. Because like I was using- I only mentioned that because- The inserted face mill, right? Right.
00:02:00
Speaker
So we use inserted face mills in the UMC for aluminum, but I think aluminum has better intrinsic clamping because the 55 foot pounds of torque gives more deformation in the material. So you get more bite out of a softer material. We've never used, that I can recall, an inserted tool in the UMC for steel.
00:02:26
Speaker
I wouldn't have, look, I'm going to call, I would have made the same mistake. I would not have said that's a problem, but there is something to be said for just using a quarter inch or three eighth inch end mill, especially on a part that small, no big deal.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I just wanted to use that face mill. I've been meaning to use it for a while. So I threw it in, and I'm like, ah, I could just do that operation with it. Let's do that. But yeah, an end mill would have been better even tipping it to the side and using the side of an end mill to face the top of that part would have been a better choice. And yeah, I learned. You go into it thinking it through, trying to figure out all the variables, trying to figure out the best tools and everything. And then you have just enough confidence to run it, and then you learn more.
Machining Strategies and Tool Pressure
00:03:10
Speaker
Yeah, it was a good conversation about it with the thought that a smaller diameter tool is less tool pressure, but then Rob's point, I think it was Rob, if you had it tipped over at B90 using the side of the tool, there's still a combination of axial and radial forces, but by and large, you're pushing more of the tool cutting pressure into the work holding. Yeah, into the vice, which is,
00:03:37
Speaker
is exactly what you do. And once he said that, it just made perfect sense. And it kind of just reframed the way I look at things like that. So it was an excellent learning point for me to figure that out. And I mean, especially on a machine like mine, light and fast is the name of the game. You know, light cuts, fast. You just don't need to hog things out, especially when they're not clamped extremely rigidly.
Tool Precision: Face Mills vs. End Mills
00:04:05
Speaker
The other thing that occurred to me is you're going to be so focused on surface finishes and precision that your kern with a traditional, you know, high quality, but not some insane soft bodied end mill or inserted cutter, the pockets and the not especially non ground, you know, just pressed inserts.
00:04:30
Speaker
The height of each one of those inserts is going to vary quite a bit as it's presented to the material versus an end mill, which is going to most likely have a much more consistent depth along each flute. So I would think you might actually prefer an end mill anyway. Yeah. And I did use an indicator on each of the three inserts on that face mill. It's a small face mill, just 3 quarter inch diameter.
00:04:58
Speaker
But I used an indicator and two of them were bang on and one of them was almost a foul. Was it a foul? Half a foul? I forget. Proud. And then I flipped the insert upside down and it was almost bang on. So there's just either the accuracy of the pocket screw combination or the pressed insert itself. So.
00:05:22
Speaker
You get a free wiper insert when it's that way. Yeah, exactly. And then I did use it later to face the top of the tombstone, you know, a big four inch square surface of 4140. And does it leave a good finish? Super duper nice.
00:05:38
Speaker
Oh, awesome. Yep. Awesome. And then the other learning of sake that I had we had is I was tabbing the part and it it fell out a tab too thin.
Tabbing Mishaps and Solutions
00:05:51
Speaker
Oh, really? The piece just flew out.
00:05:55
Speaker
No, not camera, just too thin. I left the tab too thin for the weight of the part and the hangout and all that stuff. And it grabbed, leaving the little web that was left, as it plunged on one of the tabs, it just grabbed and caught the workpiece through it, destroyed the end mill. And yeah, I'll be leaving much thicker or differently placed tabs in the future.
00:06:22
Speaker
So what happened is the end mill contacted the actual part or you cut the tab too thin and it just fell out? I guess I cut the tab too thin and then the workpiece probably deflected and caught on the end mill and then ripped out, ripped the rest of the tab off.
00:06:47
Speaker
Got it. Yeah, that can be pretty catastrophic. So there's a lot to be said for the placement of your tabs around the part. And then when we cut the tabs down, usually, depending on the task at hand, we'll usually leave some amount of radial stock when we're trimming the tabs off. And that means that, in theory, and certainly on a current, the side of the tool is never contacting the actual workpiece. That's interesting.
00:07:15
Speaker
I hadn't thought of that. So you're kind of, you're finishing the wall first, leaving a thick tab. And then when you zip through the tab, you're leaving like five hours something.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, honestly, not even. So yeah, exactly what you said. Deck of playing cards, maybe I'd leave four tabs, one in the center of each face, and I'd leave that tab 25, 30 thou tall and maybe a quarter inch long, which is actually very rigid tab. You won't have any movement in that part when those four tabs are there. And then what I'll do is I'll come in with a smaller diameter end of bill, usually than what created the tab. That way I'm not happy to slot it. And I'll come, so if I,
00:07:58
Speaker
So there was a quarter inch tool created the tabs will come in with three sixteenths and I'll trim those tabs down staying to two thou off the part and usually that's plenty good, which means I'm trimming the tab down but not touching the part. I'll trim them all down to say five thou now.
00:08:16
Speaker
You've got part deflection, material movement, tool error, measuring error, machine error, all of which you're going to have an easier time with because you've got a freaking awesome machine. But you can then bring the tabs down to incredibly thin without, and your part should never be moving except just be careful because if you happen to break through one tab or you've got a lot of part weight relative to the tabs, then yes, your part can start to deform or shift or move and then
00:08:42
Speaker
If your end mill touches the part, it's usually game over. You'll chatter, break the chip, end mill, et cetera. Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me. I was trying to finish the wall and finish the tab at the same time in the same slot, basically. And the end mill grabbed the part, threw it out. So do you use the tab function in Fusion, or do you draw little containment sketches to do the tabs and put them where you want them to? Yes.
00:09:11
Speaker
So I'll use the tab function to create the tabs and then I'll come back and I'll usually, if I'm being lazy, I'll just create 2D contours holding the Alt key so it's just one edge and then I'll do negative tangential extension to trim the tool path inward, not really caring about getting it perfectly right. So for example, if it's a quarter inch long tab, I'll get it to like, the tool might be taking a half inch long pass. It's more than needed, but because I'm staying off the part,
00:09:41
Speaker
and I just want to get it done. That's the way to go. For sure, creating sketch geometry could help, but it gets really cumbersome because by the time you, well, the way I've seen it done with you create a midpoint, the midpoint becomes your tab, center, and then the sketch itself, the shortened section becomes the finishing cleanup part. The squeeze isn't worth the juice.
00:10:07
Speaker
The thing I don't like about the tabbing operation is that it plunges the end mill through, like down the material. There's no ramp. There's no, there's no anything. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, there is a, so do triangular tabs. That helps. I haven't tried that yet. Okay.
00:10:23
Speaker
But it still does it. So yes, you totally nailed it. But the fix is to leave kind of bigger, thicker tabs and then start weaning them down. And if you're making a clamp, I know you're full Norseman, full crimp smoke, but if you're making a clamp for a fixture, the result of a tab that gets cleaned up with, say, 2,000 or 3,000 radial stock to leave is completely acceptable.
00:10:53
Speaker
Yeah, and I kind of had to wrap my head around that. That tabbed face is never going to be perfect finish. Like it's going to need a second off, whether it's hand sanding or flip it over and deck it or something. And if you have to touch it anyway, well, incorrect. I think I know where you're going with this. But my point is, if you're going to leave the tab in the middle. Well, OK, why is it incorrect? Go ahead.
00:11:20
Speaker
No, you're right. If you're going to leave the tab, think about where you want the tab, whether it's totally hidden or whether it's actually wide out in the open area that makes it easier to clean it up. But the cool way we just edited the video, it'll probably come out in a couple of weeks, but once you have your 30,000 tabs, the sort of thick tabs done but not thinned out,
Innovative Fixturing Techniques
00:11:49
Speaker
if you're able to mechanically secure the part by somehow clamping it where you've finished machining it. And if it's a soft material or you're able to be careful, you can actually just use hot glue. Now you've got to be careful because hot glue will move on you and there's some other consequences, but it does work. Or like Amish had a really good part example
00:12:15
Speaker
that he made where kind of early on in the part he finished, it was a window machined part which is effectively a form of tabbing usually. So he's making this complicated part out of a block of material and leaving the frame of the raw material serves as part of the fiction around the periphery of it. But you're tabbing areas out because you got to do work there.
00:12:38
Speaker
Part of the feature of the part had threaded fasteners for the end use of the part. Well, he took advantage of that and built a he did those early on and then built his own little bridge clamp that fixtured that part of the part, which is now done back into the fixture. So it was just clamped in place before it was even finished machined. And so you've got a wonderfully secure yet removable way of securing the part throughout, which is super cool. Yeah, genius.
00:13:07
Speaker
And it's still in the same setup, so it's as accurate as humanly possible. I like that. I guess my point was, if there's going to be a tab and I'm not going to do an immediate secondary operation, then it doesn't really matter if the tab is ugly or as pretty as possible, because it needs something else. Something else rigidly attached.
00:13:41
Speaker
Can you just me leave the tab bigger, don't even worry about it? Yeah, because you're gonna have to clean it up anyway. Exactly. And I think in the, especially in the beginning learning stages, as I, you know, get better than I can, I can do better at that.
00:13:54
Speaker
No, for sure. The only thing I'd say is usually we'll scotch brite the tab down. And so having a sharp tab or a thick tab is really hard on scotch brite wheels. So I'll still try to trim it down. But files work, decking it, and the machine works. Sometimes a deburring tool works, but usually much harder with steel to get a consistent engagement with the deburring blade. Do you have a rotating scotch brite wheel or pads?
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah, usually we'll do it on a six-inch rotary buffer thing. Yeah, so we've got the six-inch wheel on a buffer as well as a little belt grinder right next to it, so the grinder takes off anything. And then Scotch-Brite cleans it right up.
00:14:43
Speaker
Actually, that's the way to go, John. Like having a good knife maker's belt grinder where you could have a platen that holds your parts square. That'd be the bee's knees. Yeah, even, oh yeah, like platen behind the belt tends to work and you just shove it right into the belt. You don't even need a base plate really. Yeah, that's what we do. We've been doing forever. And it's just a small one. It's a one by 30 belt. So it's like the kind you'll get at Home Depot or anywhere. Nothing fancy at all.
00:15:13
Speaker
Okay. I might have to pick one of those up. We've had various ones throughout the years and they've all gotten discarded because, you know, we don't really do a lot of that work anymore, but kind of this having a good belt grinder. Cool. Cool. Are you still making those
00:15:36
Speaker
Parts for the Karrask tombstone? Yes. Nonstop and forever. Sweet. Cool. But it's going OK. It's going OK. I'm realizing it's not necessarily five axis, but it's programming takes a long time. And I really admire guys like Phil, who can program complex stuff in like two minutes, or what seems like two minutes.
00:16:01
Speaker
And even Rob, who's put a lot of work into building workflows that just make prototyping and making new stuff much, much, much quicker. Because I find I'm just putting an insane amount of time into operations and stuff, even having my own little templates and copying, pasting and stuff. It's time consuming.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, if anyone's listening and isn't following the Dr. Phil experience on Instagram, which is also their business account is MJK Performance, I think. I mean, Phil will chime in at six or seven in the morning or something and be like, oh, I'm thinking about this huge, crazy, complicated motorcycle wheel or frame part or triple axle, whatever they're called, triple tree.
00:16:47
Speaker
And it looks like incredible and rendering on the model. And then I'll ask a couple of questions. And then literally at like 4, 5 p.m., he'll send a picture to be like, it didn't turn out half bad. And you're like, what? Yeah, made on a lathe and on the mill and a five axis mill and all programmed and done like total one off prototype part done.
Efficient Programming Tips
00:17:12
Speaker
That's why you gotta go watch his class, the AU class, on making five-axis parts quickly, like it's just his attitude about it, his approach is liberating. Yeah, I saw it as I got the current, I think in January, I should watch it again, and I watched Rob Lockwood's class a couple nights ago about the container method and just doing quick cam prototyping operations much more effectively, and that helps a lot.
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah, Rob did a bang up job on his parametric window with having the relief angles and the relief distances, the tapers. And I'm trying to think if there's a way that you could also then build in sketches that would serve as tabs kind of parametrically there. So they're always programmed, they're always there, and you could just drag the sketch around. Oh, that would be sweet. The complicated thing is Fusion gets
00:18:06
Speaker
Yeah, you can do it. It's just fusion gets a little messy with like, like, it's kind of once you can, for example, once you constrain a sketch to be coincident, or collinear with something else, it gets a little messy to like, delete that and move it again. But that might be an example where this squeeze is worth the juice because it's a good point. Everything's done.
00:18:26
Speaker
You'd have your template with, say, a fifth axis vice, self-centering vice, and then your tab is always going to be using a quarter inch end mill right above the vice, so you could have a sketch right there, and then it's just sized to your part, to the stock, basically, for the tabbing constraints. Right. Right. The issue is the sketch line still has to relate to your workpiece geometry, which may not always be in the same height off of the fifth axis vice.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah, but it's probably worth it. I should play with that. Interesting. I've been playing with the derive feature infusion where you can export a body or a component into a different assembly and have it be linked, not just an entire file, but an individual body and have it be linked between different files. And it's so far, it's really cool.
00:19:25
Speaker
you're using it because you've got a, or how are you using it with a master tombstone and then you split out derives for the cam? Yes. So I find that I'm having, I'm ending up having multiple files for each thing. Like I've got my one messy file where I'm just designing everything and slap it all together. And I got to design a clamp, so I'll do it here. And, and, but then I don't want, you know, a million cam operations or folders or setups with all these different orientations.
00:19:55
Speaker
in the one master file so I'm splitting out various components to their own like empty file like there's just a clamp in this file or a clamp and the fifth axis vise that needs to be held with it and then it simplifies everything and allows me to like see the forest for the trees and just
00:20:13
Speaker
you know, calmly like tackle just the one thing at a time, or I'll design a clamp separately in its own file. And then, and that file is just for the design, and then it gets exported to a different file for cam, and then it gets derived into the master assembly for the you know, the tombstone, the big thing itself. And it's somewhat getting more complicated, but getting more simple at the same time, like as I understand it, it's it's getting cleaner, but busier. It's weird.
00:20:44
Speaker
No, I know exactly what you mean. Manual, gosh, I always say manual NC, NC programs helps a lot with that because it kind of gets rid of some of the noise because you can save what you're posting out in the right machine. But one of the things I really dislike is like right now I'm finishing up this generative
00:21:05
Speaker
longboard truck and we have it's on the UMC but we made fixtures for it on the Tormach and I've got different like stock prep operations for it as well so I have redundant tool numbers that are different tools that share the same tool number or even for different materials or on different machines and
00:21:27
Speaker
in Fusion, you can sort the tool library filter by what operation they're set up is using it, but it's not a normal easy thing to do. And so I go to create a new operation and I see that I've got three different tool sevens and they're drills. I'm like, well, which one's which? And it gets messy in that way.
00:21:50
Speaker
So plus one for the Derive. I should have actually done that, especially on the Tormach when I was prepping the fixture, Derived it out and created a Tormach special file for how we made that. Yeah, totally. It does work for that, for simplifying everything.
00:22:09
Speaker
And then let me ask you about cloud tool libraries because I'm just getting used to that.
Cloud Libraries and Tool Management
00:22:15
Speaker
I think it's probably beneficial on the current because there's so many tools and they don't change. Tool 100 is always going to be tool 100. I can build my cloud library and have it stable.
00:22:33
Speaker
But how are you doing it with all the machines that might change tool numbers? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's a great question. And there's as many opinions as there are on other controversial topics. But, you know, we have many machines with many tools with many users, so pretty normal
00:22:54
Speaker
base level, it's the simplest complicated scenario versus one machine, one user, et cetera. So ironically, at two o'clock today, I have my team hub migration session. It's my own kind of fault, but our Autodesk account was on my Gmail and it needs to be on our Saunders domain so that we can really start using team hubs and team assets correctly because
00:23:20
Speaker
It's important that I can share the right current post processor for certain machines and also have access to shared tool libraries. There's also some really good benefits in terms of data security and so forth. So that process should get underway.
00:23:38
Speaker
So the big one for us is the UMC because it's kind of the R and D machine which has changing tool numbers. So we use our S tool system which honestly is working out really well. You know, you end up having to pick kind of one compromise when you go through these systems.
00:23:55
Speaker
The only way you wouldn't have a compromise is if you had a 512 ATC rack with every single tool in it at all times. That's just not realistic. So S-Tools is working out really well. All the data is there. It can match to a fusion library. We know where the tools are physically stored. We know what machine they're in. They're tagged.
00:24:14
Speaker
It's great, the one drawback is tool numbers change, which is a pretty significant drawback, but it works for us, and I would sell it pretty hard against some of the alternatives, even though you just have to be careful because it's a situation that works really well with the caveat that if you have the wrong tool number, it's the wrong tool, and you haven't correctly measured the height, it will crash.
00:24:41
Speaker
Right. What do you mean by S tool numbers? I don't know if I've heard that phrase. Oh yeah. Sorry. So it's our S tools. So we have an Excel or Google sheet that also, which could be an air table, but sometimes just keep it simple. So for example, we have probably not hundreds, but close to a hundred tools or oh no, we have maybe 200 tools of S numbers. So if I pull it up,
00:25:06
Speaker
We did a video on this, we'll throw it in the podcast description, but as tools.
00:25:13
Speaker
A tool S83 is a Corloy index tool. So there's a dedicated hardware bin out in our shop floor that has labeled bin drawers one through 250 or something. So in drawer 83 is all the tools I would need for that Corloy extra inserts. Never sees the right correct tool to remove inserts. And this works really well
00:25:43
Speaker
In my opinion, versus things like list of cabinets that are incredibly expensive or are much more difficult to size because what if S103 is a seven inch long custom relief shank end mill? Well, my list of doors don't work for that long tool next to a short tool.
00:26:02
Speaker
And so each tool in the Google Sheet has very basic information about the holder it's in and the approximate stick out. It's not a formal gauge length, but rather what the approximate stick out is. That way, if you need to reset up the tool, you will match the stick out, which is also modeled in Fusion.
00:26:21
Speaker
It also has the tool part number and a link to that tool. That way, I'm not trying to store this information. I just go to whatever the tool manufacturer is to get what I need to see something quirky about the, you know, the coding or angle, spiral angle or something. Most of those tools set up in dedicated holders. So that's where this kind of turns into an automation investment, in my opinion. So I never, I will never set up another tap again in my life. Every single tap,
00:26:49
Speaker
has an S number, stays in a tool with a correct collet with the correct modeled gauge length. And so when I need a tap at 1032 or a 516-24, that tap is all ready to go. It has a fusion tool with the right speeds and feeds. And I know where the tap is on the cart. I know where extra taps are if I need to freshen up the tap and replace it.
00:27:11
Speaker
But right now, that tap number doesn't have a tool number. So I've got to then take that chance to put it in the machine, set the height, update the tool number in Fusion. Do you have the height and diameter in the spreadsheet? Because you have that offline pre-setter, right?
00:27:31
Speaker
We have the stick out, and we know the holder, and we have the tool diameter in the form of just a description, but absolutely no. The workflow that we decided, even though we could use our Spironi to store gauge lengths, that's too risky because you always then have to trust that it was tagged or written down correctly, and it's not worth that. So we just touch off every time right now. I could see that changing, but yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
What if- And I'll tell you, John, it's been absolutely great. Yeah, I could see that. What if that tap is in the UMC? Like, would you set up a second one or typically no?
00:28:13
Speaker
So the question, yeah, so you do identical sister tools or not. I probably, that's a good question. We don't have that problem right now. For production machines, they don't necessarily draw on S tools the same way. Like we don't take those tools out of those like the VM, excuse me, the VM3, the VF2. This is really more,
00:28:35
Speaker
a prototyping scenario. So even if you're a one-man shop with one UMC, you're going to want to have more tools than you have holder pockets or ATC pockets. And that's what this solves. The benefit of doing sister tools but the same S number is that that way you have the same physical storage bin, which is really important for not overbuying tools like, hey, all of my half-inch
00:29:00
Speaker
corn cob roughers are in bin s 77 that's good thing to know but sister tools also make it more complicated to figure out you know where they are yeah and as we're growing and having more and more tools my my one you know
00:29:15
Speaker
I've had it for 10 years, but it's probably a 20 or 30 year old toolbox. It's being outgrown and not utilized well. So when I'm looking for this one tool, it could be in one of two locations, which is not cool. You said you have a video on this. I got to watch that if I haven't seen it already. Do you have a physical toolbox with bin 83?
00:29:38
Speaker
Yep. So that's what I love about this system. If you just Google, by the way, NYC CNC organized tools, that's the video where we walk through it. We buy these Acromills bins off of MSC. They're about $120 a piece, which is very cheap. Each one has 28 bins in it.
00:29:59
Speaker
And then we buy some stickers off Amazon that are one through a thousand. And again, the beauty is, John, you could come into our shop and I could get you up and running on S tools in probably 90 seconds. That is like exactly the goal. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:16
Speaker
Now, what this lacks that I've seen on some, to use a word I dislike, industry 4.0 solutions. This doesn't have things like RFID. That would be awesome. It doesn't have the ability to, say, tell where the tool is at an ERP system that you could assign it to a certain machine so you know. That would be really cool, but it's too much money investment. And once you don't maintain that system, the value falls apart.
00:30:44
Speaker
So this ties into those 3D printed tool racks, which is what's a great tool because if I am looking for tool 60, it might take me a minute, but I can just go up to a machine and scan down the list of the tool tags. And I see, oh, there's S60, it's in this machine. And the beauty of that too is a lot of times on a machine tool, you're trying to pull up a certain drill or tap, whether you want to check it or use it or remove it. And this,
00:31:11
Speaker
The way we have our 3D printed tool racks, you stick the S number into the T number slot. So S60 is right now T13 on the UMC. So that's hugely helpful for quickly figuring out what tool numbers what. That is wonderful. You have given me a lot to think about. I like that.
00:31:43
Speaker
Yeah, the best thing to me, and this actually kind of originated, we pulled this idea from a lot of different folks in shop tours, but the original Genesis was actually Amish. Amish was talking about how every month or two, he just tries to use an extra few bucks to buy another couple of tool holders to set up things like taps, or 3.16 ball end mills, and bull nose end mills, things that he's always gonna use as a job shop.
00:32:11
Speaker
and he was tired of trying to put them away and find the collets for them and then set it up, figure out the right holder. And this means it's rocking and rolling. It's sitting there ready to go. Yep. And having the tool set up in Fusion already saves quite a bit of time as well. Do you have S numbers in Fusion, like in the naming convention or something? We don't, and we could. It might be helpful. We should, actually. Just in the name field, you know?
00:32:42
Speaker
No, we could. Honestly, I'm fibbing a little bit. We haven't done as much of the fusion library development because I'm waiting on today. This has been a two-year process on my end of getting this fusion stuff sorted out.
00:32:57
Speaker
So I'll have Alex and Jeffrey probably start really pushing that data into Fusion. But the cool thing is, going back to kind of Dr. Phil's approach to programming five axis parts, everything I just described probably sounds very grandiose and big undertaking and really a lot of work. It's not really. RS tools right now only has, shoot, let me do it to the count.
00:33:24
Speaker
58 tools in it. And we've been using it for probably six or nine months. And 58 tools is actually a great, like I don't find myself very often saying, oh man, I wish I had S tools or I'll set up a new S tool for it. So it doesn't take that long to go through a very good range of your standard drills, spotting tools. Actually spotting tools are a great example because I got tired of looking through our drawer and figuring out was that an 82 degree? Is it a 90 degree? Is it 110 degree?
00:33:54
Speaker
They're just all set up. Yep. And I love how you've built a centralized storage system, too, so that you know exactly where the new tools are, where the tool is for it, the wrench, the anti-seize, the little instruction manual that it comes with if you want to keep it.
Optimizing Tool Storage
00:34:09
Speaker
And then in the database, in the spreadsheet, you can have linked by more. You can have some notes. You can have Torx specs. You can have whatever.
00:34:20
Speaker
It's brilliant. I love it because it's relatively simple. When you probably came up with it, you're like, yeah, let's try it. One tool, done. Then two tools, then three tools. Then the idea grows from there. As we're describing it, and it sounds like you said big and grandiose, it's really not. It's just a small incremental process that you've been tweaking for nine months. It's amazing.
00:34:45
Speaker
I wholeheartedly agree. And there's a number of things we've tried to do. In fact, I even started a video called Lean Fail that I even failed on finishing that video, which is very ironic. But this is not a lean fail. This is a success. And the easiest way to start it is just take shallow bins or 3D printed shallow bins and write the number on it. And it doesn't have to be S number. I use S number because I didn't want T.
00:35:12
Speaker
and then just start putting the tools in there. The other thing I like about the Acro Mills bins, they fit insert packs and it would lend itself to a breadcrumbs, it would lend itself to a breadcrumb system if you did want to keep additional information on a tool or like some of the Corloy stuff comes with a whole like a case around the tool with like a bigger stuff in it.
00:35:37
Speaker
you could easily put the breadcrumb location tag inside the Acromills drawer. And then we've gotten in the habit now of labeling our toolboxes. So a black toolbox is toolbox number one. We just put numbers on the drawers. So we know toolbox two, drawer 13 is certain things, files or extra Noga inserts for deburring tools, that kind of stuff.
00:36:06
Speaker
Love it. If you didn't know, sorry, not you, but the audience. Breadcrumbs is the lean term for where, like, let's say you source screws. Well, you may want to have 100 screws at your order inventory assembly table, but you may want to have 5,000 on hand. And so the 4,900 balance are breadcrumbs that you may store back in a supply room. You just need to leave them located with some of the location metric. Yeah. And the goal of all of this is to
00:36:34
Speaker
As you as you said to me to have somebody come in and within about 14 seconds can be trained on kind of where where stuff is and how to do it, you know, yeah. And it changes the way you program parts for me, which I for me in the better, because when I now tackle a part on the UMC, I just basically pull out of s tools. And then again, every once in a while, I'll need to add one, but not very often. Yep.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, I'm finding that with the cloud library too. As I'm programming new parts and I have my current cloud library and you pick a tool from there and it brings it into your now part library.
00:37:17
Speaker
Having all the tools I know that are in the machine that are set up, I've already got, I don't know, 30 programmed or something with the holder and the stick out and everything's like, everything's dialed. Speeds and feeds for steel, because that's all I've been making lately. And yeah, programming part, I just picked the tool and it's already set up, it's already done. Kind of rarely now am I adding new tools so far anyway.
00:37:46
Speaker
And it's super handy. The one thing I'm wondering though, is when I switched to multi materials and have multiple speeds and feeds for the same tool, how do you do that? Do you have copies of the same tool with different speeds and feeds? Yes.
00:38:02
Speaker
So, this is where it gets complicated quickly and I've, there's a couple different new, we could go down a deep rabbit hole here, the quote unquote new fusion tool library which is in beta so you can, I believe anybody can access it.
00:38:18
Speaker
does allow what you said, which is multiple feeds and speeds for the same tool. A high speed steel twist drill is a great example. You literally will use the same drill for plastic steel, probably not stainless steel, et cetera, but at very different speeds. Likewise, an end mill may have different feeds and speeds for roughing or finishing or slotting. So it will start to allow that.
00:38:43
Speaker
I love what Autodesk is doing. I don't have a lot of faith that they're going to, it just gets so complicated so quickly and everybody has their own different quirks and uses. I think the better approach is to kind of take this into your own hands, at least for now. The other thing I really don't like, but I understand why they do it, is that when you
00:39:02
Speaker
grab a tool for a CAM operation or for a part, when you grab a tool out of your main library, it doesn't maintain a relationship between your master library. Basically just copies or duplicates that tool out to your local part file or that part file, which I is like because let's say T70 is a spot drill.
00:39:23
Speaker
and I've got that used in multiple files, well, if I end up replacing it, or sorry, S70 and it's T12, well, I end up pulling it out and then it later becomes T23, that's no big deal for me, but there's no way to push that update through every file or part that uses it. You've got a huge advantage in the current, because you've got a monster ATC, so you probably won't have this issue for production stuff.
00:39:51
Speaker
I probably won't have that issue, but the speeds and feeds one for sure. And some other stuff, yeah.
00:40:00
Speaker
You might want to look at the beta library because that may be a good answer for you. I played with it a week or two ago, and I turned it off because it was something's weird with it, I forget. But it's getting there. It's getting close. But I think for now, I'm just going to duplicate tool numbers. So like tool 100, it's going to have two or three versions in the cloud library. And in the naming convention, I'll just
00:40:27
Speaker
Define like steel stainless titanium aluminum. Yeah Yeah, that's perfect because I actually have one already. Can I change this last thing? I just have Like to 100 and then to 100 slower depending on the operation That is completely acceptable and there isn't a single person who hasn't done that yeah
Migrating to an ERP System
00:40:53
Speaker
Somebody wrote in and I had a really good question that I wanted to chime in on. They're migrating their job shop over to an ERP system, which is awesome, but a process that I think a lot of folks, once they've gone through it, probably have a lot of wisdom to share.
00:41:14
Speaker
So it's kind of cool to hear and see. I want to stay in touch with him on this process. His question was, should we use activity-based costing? And it's an awesome question because it's really getting at the kind of information that an ERP is going to force you to start to think about. It's also an awesome question because it kind of exemplifies the amazingness of the world that we live in. You could go pay a bunch of money to get a fancy degree in accounting or business from a college, or you can go watch a
00:41:43
Speaker
15-minute YouTube video and learn the majority of what you need to learn on activity-based costing, which luckily is actually a really simple accounting term. Sounds fancy. It just means you're going to divide something like manpower or machine cost time or
00:41:59
Speaker
Let's say the example I just saw on YouTube was electricity. Well, if your electric bill is $500 a month and you made 1,000 various parts, you could say $500 a month divided by 1,000 parts is my electric cost per part. That's activity-based costing, except
00:42:15
Speaker
What activity-based costing does is tries to correlate the actual consumption or relative use because say some of your parts are made on a plasma machine, that's a really high energy users and some of them are just made on something that doesn't take much electricity. You do kind of want to make some estimate that's going to help you understand really where and why are your costs being incurred to give you better understanding of per-product profit margins as well as what your business will look like if you start to grow or scale it.
00:42:45
Speaker
If you start making a lot more plasma parts, your electric bill is going to go up. So activity-based costing, another great example would be your payroll or your help at the shop, your team. If somebody's spending a bunch of their time earning X dollars an hour, you can look at sort of what does their labor rate divided by the time equal the cost for that sort of process or service.
00:43:07
Speaker
That makes sense. I think in what we do, because we have relatively steady production, we make relatively the same thing every day, I think Barry does use that quite a bit because we're fairly stable as far as an input-output thing. So I've definitely seen him say, this amount of input divided by that amount of output. Well, if we scale, then it'll be this.
00:43:34
Speaker
Right. The caution I would urge is don't get too obsessed with data. Make sure you understand what you're really trying to do with it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Activity-based costing is a great gateway drug for this idea of thinking you can overanalyze things and make better decisions when in reality
00:43:55
Speaker
it could be something that takes a lot of time to maintain and as soon as you stop maintaining it, it's kind of like S tools or something else where if you stop putting the effort into it, then all of a sudden the data is either worthless or worse than worthless, it's actually wrong and you think it's right.
00:44:12
Speaker
For a job shop, I'd be really hesitant to try to do activity-based costing. It's not a complicated subject, and it can be as simple as saying, well, if my best employee has to spend time on the best machine, then that's a higher shop rate than a simple part that our intern can do on a three-axis. That's really a form of activity-based costing. That's my words of wisdom there. Love it.
00:44:45
Speaker
Sweet, yeah. What's on top for today? I'm home today, so programming more 5-axis parts. I'm trying to get faster. I'm trying to get more efficient data, because I'm starting to realize how many parts I want to make, like how much stuff I need, how many chunks of stock I need to order today, and just how awesome it is to run a validized 5-axis. I want to get more into that.
00:45:17
Speaker
What do you mean you want to get more into that? You're in that business now. I'm just, I'm eager for the coming future. Like just, there's something to me, the nerd in me loves the Kern for what the Kern is, but the business side of me freaking loves that Aroa Compact 80. Holy cow. Yes. Yeah. I don't think I've done, I haven't done a,
00:45:44
Speaker
mid-program palette change yet, you know, like running two parts. Yeah. That'll be a good day. That'll be a big day. I'm not too far away, I don't think. Well, but that's the thing I would... Oh man, it's one of the things I get so fired up about 5-axis that I didn't realize until I got ours is even the simple zero point system that we've got on the 5-axis, if I want to pull off a part, I can just take it off
00:46:10
Speaker
because I'm stuck or let's say we're gonna 3D print something to test it and I wanna go do other stuff. I could just take that part off and set it aside, drop the other vice or dovetail whatever in and go do work on that part. And you either need to save your offsets or for us, we're just using the...
00:46:27
Speaker
what do you call it the master palette so the offsets never change it's freaking amazing yeah it's an absolute game changer and I don't know why it feels so much different on the five axis than it does like with a Pearson palette or with an orange orange fixture base or any of the other kind of quick change stuff that we've all used and we're all used to and it's it's literally the same thing I mean that's
00:46:51
Speaker
That's how Pearson's business is marketed. It's like you pull a pallet off, you put something else on. It's the same thing. I don't know why. It just feels a little different on the five axis. Maybe it's the pallet, Adrian. I can just park it. I can store it for later. Yeah. I think it's the fact that you get access to five or even six prismatic sides that kind of changes the one and done approach to it. That's what's freaking so cool. Yeah, it just adds more.
00:47:18
Speaker
I think I know of one person who has actually for multiple years run maybe two people that have actually run a three axis where they've never probed. Like everything they do based off of permanently mounted fixtures or like a fixture plate and they know where that is and so they know their heights and datums and there's just something that's very strange about that. I think that's how Pearson does it for a lot of stuff.
00:47:44
Speaker
Is that true? I think so. Yeah, he doesn't have probes, you're right. No, that's three people then. I wasn't counting him in that group. Mm-hmm. Yet on five-pack, so I think it's probably more common. That's definitely how Rob wants to do everything. Yeah. Oh, and fun fact, Rob's right.
00:48:03
Speaker
Rob is also right on having your work coordinate system for the lathe be at the front of the chuck. I'm going to double down on that one. Cool. I'm mostly just Josh. He is still correct to be clear. Cool. Awesome. Hey, happy new week buddy. I'll see you next week. See you too. Take care. Bye.