Transcript
Joe Waltman: ah today we've got Tatiana Stepanova. Tatiana, thank you for joining.
Tatyana : Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure to be here.
Joe Waltman: All right, first question, refresh your memory. What were you doing before INSEAD and what have you been up to for the last, two gosh, 22-ish, 21, 22 years?
Tatyana : um So I'll start this before INSEAD, and it may actually be even more interesting than the journey post INSEAD, sadly. um but um So my path to INSEAD was by no means straightforward.
Tatyana : ah My background is I am ah Russian with a bit of Ukrainian b blood as well, but I've grown up in Kyrgyzstan. ah which is a good geography test for you, Joe. Do you know where that is?
Joe Waltman: I would have no idea. Yeah.
Tatyana : So it's it's a small country in Central Asia. It was part of the Soviet Union then, but it's it's a tiny, beautiful, beautiful country, but tiny... ah Republic of the Soviet Union. So I grew up there.
Tatyana : um And when I was 16, I went to the university in Moscow, as was kind of customary in the Soviet Union days. If you wanted a good education, you would go to uni in Moscow.
Tatyana : So I went there, wanted to be become a psychologist. I mean, you never know when when you're 16 who you want to be. So I figured I wanted to be a psychologist, but I couldn't quite get into Moscow University with my grades. But I could do economics with the same grades.
Tatyana : And so then the choice was, do I go back to Kyrgyzstan, do I stay in Moscow? And, you know, when you're 16, you're in a big city, 4,000 kilometers away from home. Moscow was very exciting.
Tatyana : So I've stayed and started in economics. um And that was still Soviet days. So it was very much, um you know, not market economy, but state kind of planning economy, five-year plan, etc.,
Joe Waltman: Yeah, yeah. I'd love to know how what what do ah what does a Soviet university teach you about supply and demand and and stuff like that? Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : Yeah, it was all redistribution, right? It was all, I mean, we started with Marx Capital, I can still quote Capital. So it was, ah yeah, it was an interesting, certainly interesting ah first couple of years.
Joe Waltman: Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : But then the whole Soviet Union collapsed while i was while we were at it.
Joe Waltman: Wow.
Tatyana : And so the state five-year plan economy changed into market economy halfway through. And that meant that some of our professors um didn't know what to teach us.
Tatyana : um ah So the older ones just kept going. The younger ones would find English books and translate them into Russian. um But above all, it was actually survival time for all because... um the whole of those connections, you know, economic connections between the republics dropped.
Tatyana : ah There was nothing nothing in the shops. ah People had to get by. So lot of those professors actually had to have other jobs to just survive. And as students, and especially students who were, you know, my parents were far away, they were not getting paid.
Tatyana : So it was actually quite a tough time then. And so we all had to get some buy extra jobs um just to get by. i was doing i was a correspondent for a business news agency. I was also a chief accountant for a fellow PhD student who had his own business. um So it was difficult times.
Tatyana : And so I guess what I took out of all of it
Joe Waltman: All this while you were while you were still a student.
Tatyana : ah Still a student, yeah. So um where I was hoping for a great education and best years of my life, actually it was very, very tough times. And I left it um
Joe Waltman: but But probably a very good education, not necessarily in the intended, yeah, yeah.
Tatyana : with life skills. Yeah, maybe be life skills, but what have I learned about economics? Very little.
Joe Waltman: Yeah.
Tatyana : um And then the choice, so then then we've graduated and again, was job market where in the old Soviet times you would be given a range of jobs. It was all be arranged for you.
Tatyana : um There were no jobs and people would, you know, you'd have to rely on contacts, connections to find something. um And so for me, ah did I did not have contacts and connections in Moscow. My family was back in Turkestan.
Tatyana : um But I didn't want to go back because that became then the very quite a poor, you know beautiful, but quite a poor country. um And so that's where i think the first, ah you know great probably greatest luck for a very fortunate event in my life happened.
Tatyana : um where I yeah came across Moscow Times, an English newspaper ah that had an article about big six audit firms coming to Russia. um They were all, because the Russian market was just opening up.
Tatyana : ah So that was 1991, 1993. And... ninety ninety three um and There were telephone numbers and addresses of three of them.
Tatyana : And so in my desperation, I wrote to them all. um And two responded saying they don't have vacancies. And one invited me for an interview. And it turned out that they had just opened the text department.
Tatyana : um They were looking for young Russians. So there were three experienced... ah people from the Ministry of Finance, and then they were looking for young Russians who they could kind of teach and educate.
Tatyana : And of course, tax did not exist in the old Soviet system either, because it was all state owned and redistributed. ah So it was a very new profession to be a tax advisor.
Joe Waltman: That's fascinating.
Tatyana : ah
Joe Waltman: That's yeah, that you did the concept of taxing. That's, that's incredible.
Tatyana : um ah So here I was, that was really my ticket to life, you know, a girl from Kyrgyzstan got a job in the Kupersen Library, it was then, it's now Pricewaterhouse Kupers, and that's where I really got my education from.
Tatyana : um
Joe Waltman: And this is in Moscow.
Tatyana : So that's where, in Moscow, yeah. So that's why I learned English. um And quite quickly, actually, after about a year, um we were, so these three young Russians, we were all sent to foreign offices to get experience for six months. So one guy went to Frankfurt, ah one went to London, and I went to Amsterdam.
Tatyana : And so was 21. I was 21 when I came to Amsterdam as a tax trainee, had the time of my life.
Joe Waltman: Cool.
Tatyana : ah
Joe Waltman: Now, is this the, I don't want to little too much of this case because there's a whole bunch of other stuff to talk about, but is is this the normal age you would have finished ah uni in in in Russia or Soviet Union, or or did you kind of get out of there early because it looks so green?
Tatyana : It was a bit, that i started at 16, normally you would start at 17, so I was early in school. And then we were supposed to study for five years, but um the government decided change the education system to bachelor four years plus two masters.
Tatyana : but That was halfway through. And we were in our third year and they just said to us, well, we give you four years, you finish early, you get your master's diploma after four years. ah So that's that's, I was 20 when I graduated, which is quite, quite early.
Joe Waltman: Gotcha. Okay. so let's let's So let's move on to the the work ah but from then till when INSEAD started.
Tatyana : Yeah. And so then I was with Pedalpo, Kupersen-Librand, went to Amsterdam, came back to Russia, um And then in 1998, just before the Russian crisis hit, have negotiated another secondment because i I really wanted to go back to or go somewhere outside Russia for longer to learn.
Tatyana : ah So have negotiated a secondment to PWC, then PricewaterhouseCoopers in Amsterdam.
Tatyana : And so... I went there in 1999, worked in, I was a manager and then and senior manager in a real estate group dealing with taxation of Pound European real estate funds. um And we were also working with Middle Eastern. and So I remember trip to Adia, we were trying to get some Middle Eastern investors.
Tatyana : um
Joe Waltman: Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : So it was interesting times. um But I was still doing tax, international tax learning. But at some point I felt um yeah I wasn't learning as much. And I also started feeling that um maybe tax is not what I wanted to do. I wanted broadening.
Tatyana : I didn't think I wanted to be a consultant. um And so then I came across INSEAD. I think it was an article. I don't remember but exactly where, but I didn't know anyone who went to INSEAD. But I came across there the story, and the story sounded wonderful.
Tatyana : um know The international experience, um France, it all sounded extremely appealing, um broadening, um know learning about lots of new things.
Tatyana : And because I had this
Joe Waltman: so you get pop to blue Until you get to Fontainebleau, you realize you're in you're in the armpit of France.
Tatyana : Yeah, and funding was actually because I was paid quite well. So I was a senior manager then. ah So, you know, money was not an issue. And I thought, well, I'll apply and I see what happens.
Tatyana : And and that's that's that's where I was. I was 29. So I was working with PwC in Amsterdam for three years by then. I had a boyfriend, a Dutch boyfriend.
Joe Waltman: a Yeah, there are plenty of single Dutchmen, if I remember correctly.
Tatyana : um So was going back and forth. um Couldn't drive, so I rented an apartment in Fontainebleau, which limited my social um social life somewhat. And actually, that's probably one thing I regret most about not doing more of socializing and, you know,
Joe Waltman: You probably could have could have upgraded.
Tatyana : Yes, i was so you know I was not on the market. Going back and forth to Amsterdam.
Tatyana : Yeah, but love the year. still have such wonderful memories of that year. I think we all do.
Joe Waltman: Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So let's move on. what what What's been going on for the last 20-ish years?
Tatyana : Yeah, and then 20-ish years is really boring, actually. I've been working for just one company.
Joe Waltman: What? Wow.
Tatyana : And the I am back in tax. I'm still doing tax. ah So that's also ironic, considering they brought me back.
Joe Waltman: Wow. So you you tried to get out, but they pulled you back in. Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : Yeah, they pulled me back in. um So i yeah I was back in Amsterdam. I was looking for a job.
Joe Waltman: so So right after INSEAD, did you go back to your previous employer or because you had the tax background, you got hired by somebody else?
Tatyana : No, so I wanted to leave. i was looking for PricewaterhouseCoopers. I didn't want to become a consultant anymore. ah They didn't pay for my education. I paid for it myself. So I was, um you know, I wrote this book, I think was, what's it, What Color My Parachute was the book that recommended us.
Tatyana : and ah how to change careers. So I really wanted to change career dramatically. I was looking at general management, I was approaching companies, but remember that 2003 was a really bad year.
Joe Waltman: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Tatyana : um And so I've been talking to recruiters and there was this one tiny recruitment company that I've spoken to and shared my CV. And they called me and they said, we have this great opportunity for you with Shell.
Tatyana : ah It's tax and it's in Russia. And I thought, no, that's not what I want.
Joe Waltman: Oh, the oil company, I assume you mean, right?
Tatyana : The oil company, yes.
Joe Waltman: Okay, okay.
Tatyana : yeah um And I didn't want to work for the oil company because i my perception of it then was that it's you know it's it's a very straightforward and boring business. um But the more I saw, they said, well, at least you know go for an interview.
Tatyana : So I went for an interview and the more I heard about the position, um the more interesting it became.
Joe Waltman: Thank you.
Tatyana : So it was the head of techs for Sakhalin two projects, so for big Shell project in Russia, which was still under construction then. So it was Shell and two Japanese partners, Mitsu and Mitsubishi.
Tatyana : And they had the they previously had a British head of tax, but they needed someone to Russian because there were quite a lot of negotiations with ah the Russian Ministry of Finance, Russian Ministry of Energy. So they wanted someone who understood Russian context.
Tatyana : So they were looking for a senior Russian person for a while. and And when they came across my CV, they thought, wow, that's that's that's great. um So there was a lot of fool um
Joe Waltman: Hold on. This raises all kinds of questions. I'll try to be concise. So first, of only you know the the idiot that I am, I've only recently learned that many hit times these real estate projects are like thinly veiled you you know tax optimization things for other assets just to to reap all sorts of tax benefits.
Joe Waltman: So how much of it was that? And then two, what the hell is a tax person doing negotiating with government ministers? or so it's Or I just say it's not necessarily there's like laws written on books. You're going there and saying, we'll do this if you give us that kind of a thing.
Joe Waltman: Is is that what your work was?
Tatyana : No, no. So maybe, you well, I mean, negotiation maybe is not the right word.
Joe Waltman: Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : So first on the real estate, so Shell project, of course, that was not a real estate project. That was oil and gas project. ah So was it started with a 10 billion ah project that became 20 plus billion project.
Joe Waltman: here
Tatyana : And they were building, um you know, so there was a gas in Sakhalin. So it's extracting gas, the pipelines, and then LNG processing plant. So making this gas into LNG, and then that would be sold to um oh customers in Japan and then korea in and in other places.
Tatyana : um So all of that was then in construction. um So, yeah, so and there was no tax optimization there. And that kind of brings brings me to the second your second question.
Joe Waltman: right but but Go on, go on. I'm sorry. Sorry.
Tatyana : So the the discussions with the government were about, so when when oil and gas companies get a project like that, they're usually based on a contract.
Tatyana : um So in that case, it is a production sharing contract. And that contract prescribes everything. So how do the kindh hydrocarbons are divided between the government and the investor?
Tatyana : But it also talks about the tax. So how is the tax being paid? So everything is in the contract. ah But in addition,
Joe Waltman: I see. So it's not a matter of of trying to sweeten up the deal. It's more just making sure you don't you don't do anything wrong and you're paying the right tax.
Tatyana : Exactly, exactly.
Joe Waltman: Okay.
Tatyana : And discussions, it's more about how you interpret that contract in the context of the country's tax system, because they often do not speak to each other.
Joe Waltman: Okay.
Tatyana : ah So these contracts are given by energy ministers, and then there is ah you know there is a tax code. ah So how do you make sure they they they work, they they kind of connect?
Tatyana : And we had there were lots of litigations, we had cases that needed to be, just because of that misunderstanding. um Because, you know, the the tax authorities just could not really translate how they understand how the contract would work in in the code.
Joe Waltman: Interesting. So that was the project that got you hired in. What kinds of stuff have you been doing since?
Tatyana : Yeah, so i've I've been there for three. So we all went to Russia, ah the boyfriend, the dog. um But then I got pregnant, so three years in
Joe Waltman: Wait, you're still with the boyfriend? You're still with the same Dutch boyfriend?
Tatyana : I was still with the same Dutch boyfriend, yes. i've
Joe Waltman: Okay. Okay.
Tatyana : and So we all went to Russia. He got the job with Shell as well.
Joe Waltman: Wow.
Tatyana : um And we're flying to Sakhalin. So my deal was that I'll be um three weeks in Moscow and one week in Sakhalin, which is like nine hours flight. you know It's near near Japan, so it's a Russian far east.
Tatyana : um But great job, very, very interesting job. But then I got pregnant with my first kid. um And I said to Shell, look, i you know I cannot do this job with flying back and forth. They just wouldn't work with the baby.
Tatyana : And so I've negotiated um ah nine months maternity leave and that I'll come back to the Netherlands and we'll have an investment finance role, which I thought would be you know great, would be a dream job, would be something different from tax finally ah back in in in the Netherlands.
Tatyana : um And so we moved back. My son was born. But then I went and started this investment finance role. um It was
Tatyana : 2006, I think, was a year. The oil price was really low. the deal So I was supposed to be finance lead on the deals. But deals were not happening. um i um And I had the kid at...
Joe Waltman: but What does this mean? so Investment finance means you're looking at new perspective projects and and and things that Shell might want to do, where before you were making sure existing ones were or new ones were compliant.
Tatyana : So...
Joe Waltman: Is that fair?
Tatyana : ah Well, partly. So it's the business development people who would look for projects, but then there is a project team and then the finance person makes sure that all the financial ah aspects of the project are kind of well thought through.
Joe Waltman: Mm-hmm.
Joe Waltman: That you'll actually make money from it.
Tatyana : Yeah, that you make money, that the price is right, all of that.
Joe Waltman: Okay, okay.
Tatyana : um And I was, to be honest, I was a bit out of my depth having done tax. all So I i wasn't, you know i had this I was a senior finance manager, but I felt you I had to learn, but the deals were not happening, so I didn't have much opportunity to learn.
Tatyana : um And then I got pregnant with my second kid.
Joe Waltman: Hmm.
Tatyana : And so that kind of combination triggered me to say, look,
Joe Waltman: A very active Dutch boyfriend, it sounds like. I could carry out. sorry, out that was rude.
Tatyana : Well, I think i think was kind of the right age for it as well.
Tatyana : But then, so I took two years off. I said i wanted to be home with the kids and I've taken two years parental leave.
Tatyana : And so that takes us to 2009 when I came back after two years. So I've been a mom for two years, enjoyed it.
Tatyana : um I was quite tough actually going back. um So that's something that I now advise when I speak to young women. I mean, I really enjoyed my time, but it it has its goals.
Tatyana : And... and My next job was LNG trading business and I was a tax manager there.
Tatyana : So that was four hubs trading LNGs, liquefied national gas, a lot of tax issues around pricing.
Tatyana : ah So I have done that for a bit of for a year. I was still working four days a week with young kids at home. um But then there was a really interesting opportunity in the Middle East, in Dubai.
Tatyana : And so I applied for it and I got a job and we all went to the middle, to Dubai. um And I was head of tax for the region, and upstream.
Tatyana : um And that was really interesting times because ah Middle East was then heartlands for Shell. So we had big positions in Abu Dhabi, in Oman, Egypt, and Iraq has just started.
Tatyana : ah So we had two oil projects in Iraq. We started building gas processing, or we're still negotiating the contract actually for the gas processing plant.
Tatyana : In Iraq, again, the issues were very similar. So there were contracts ah which governed how everything worked, including tax for these projects.
Tatyana : um But then the Ministry of Finance didn't know how to apply so how to apply those contracts. So again, it was a lot of conversations about how does tax work?
Tatyana : How do we pay tax? um And so we were meeting with Iraqi officials in Istanbul, ah but i also actually traveled to Iraq, which was... um
Joe Waltman: and What year would this have been?
Tatyana : um That would have been 2008.
Tatyana : 12, I think, or 13, I went to Baghdad, which, yeah, made that I can't get ETSA now to to come to the U.S.
Joe Waltman: Wow.
Tatyana : So that trip to Baghdad screwed my...
Joe Waltman: Oh, really? Just because you've been to Iraq, you can you can now you can now not, you can't get into the U.S.?
Tatyana : I cannot get ETSA, no. I cannot. Well, like I have a 10-year visa, so I had to apply for a visa.
Joe Waltman: wow
Tatyana : Yeah.
Joe Waltman: wow
Tatyana : um Yeah, so that was um interesting. Traveled a lot around the Middle East. um I mean, Shell is a big company, so I i say I've worked for one company, ah but there's a lot of interesting you know there's a lot of interesting businesses in different countries.
Tatyana : And I guess that's what ah that's what makes it worthwhile. Yeah. So our kids basically grew up in Dubai and then we went back in 2016, uh, back to the Netherlands, um, knowing that we wanted to divorce.
Tatyana : Uh, so that's on the personal side. Um, so that, that that boyfriend, I mean, was a good divorce. It's, it's a good divorce. We still, uh, we live on the same street, so we're still, uh, kind of, uh, friends.
Tatyana : You can say that, um, certainly amicable, amicable divorce. Uh, but it was tough. So that back then it was really, uh, tough because we had to move.
Tatyana : We, you know, was kids had to settle again and we were divorcing. It was all at the same time. Um, and that's where, so there was another job with Shell. I was head of of, uh, upstream operated business, uh, which was a little bit more of the same. So, um,
Tatyana : kind of same type of job I did in the Middle East, but then focusing on different locations. So that took me to Nigeria, interesting operations in Nigeria, Kazakhstan, Malaysia.
Tatyana : um ah So the work was maybe not that different, but the countries were different. um
Joe Waltman: Yeah, you sort of you've gone from being the Russia person to being the international tax person, haven't you
Joe Waltman: you? Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : Yeah, an energy person. So, oil ah oil and yeah, I certainly know a lot about.
Joe Waltman: Mm-hmm.
Joe Waltman: I mean, yeah, for for for for energy, of course, yeah.
Tatyana : Yeah.
Joe Waltman: Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : um Yeah, and then my last role in Shell was again in tax, but slightly different. um So head of tax policy, which meant that um you kind of look outside, you look externally.
Tatyana : And we worked with international organizations like OECD, UN, through tax committees. So business at OECD tax committee, International Chamber of Commerce tax committee,
Tatyana : on understanding the international tax landscape and where it's going and what that means for Shell. ah So what is it that we need to be prepared for tax-wise?
Tatyana : ah So a more strategic kind of role. ah So being prepared internally, but also trying to shape tax legislation externally.
Tatyana : too much text for you good question good question
Joe Waltman: No, no, not at all. i just I'm wondering what what's more frustrating working with the OECD or working with like, you know, ah Iraqi or Emirati or Russian tax ministers.
Joe Waltman: They both suck. Mm-hmm.
Tatyana : The challenges, they both have their challenges, let me. yeah And OECD definitely have its challenges now. let yeah i mean, I think the whole world of international cooperation, whether it's tax or anything else, is is quite uncertain.
Joe Waltman: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Waltman: Yeah. Maybe falling apart. Maybe falling apart.
Tatyana : Yeah, fully. Yeah.
Joe Waltman: Yeah. Yeah. ah Well, hey, as as as a punctuation for these conversations, always I always ask the same two-part question and And not everybody wants to or has a great answer, but it said if you don't, just say, you know i don't really have anything to is there is there anything that we can do as the INSEAD community promotion to help you and vice versa?
Joe Waltman: What might you be able to do to ah to help to help us? Oh,
Tatyana : Yeah, so the thing I haven't told you yet is that I'm leaving Shell.
Joe Waltman: I'm sorry.
Tatyana : So I am...
Joe Waltman: Oh, okay.
Tatyana : ah
Joe Waltman: Well, after only 21 years, why so short? Uh-huh.
Tatyana : After 21 and a half years, ah it's finally my time to do something different.
Joe Waltman: huh
Joe Waltman: Oh, wow.
Tatyana : ah So I'm leaving at the end of this month. um And I am leaving...
Joe Waltman: oh well
Tatyana : i am living um
Tatyana : Yes, I'm leaving living after 21 and a half years and thinking it's a good time to take to take a pause and think about what I want to do next. So and the intention is not to to look for another tax corporate job.
Tatyana : um But um I'm exploring in three directions and that's why maybe where your question comes in. um So one thing is board experience.
Tatyana : um I'm looking for for board experience. I've had some board roles in Shell. um But what I'm particularly interested in is developing country context, a way I can use my expertise in techs and knowledge of energy business.
Tatyana : ah So if people are aware of such opportunities, you know please reach out. I'd be very grateful. um And in terms of what
Joe Waltman: Well, let's, so let let's clarify that. So you can see you're looking for ah board roles where tax where maybe there's, there's a, there's a ah missing a gap in tax experience where you can, you can step in and help out with, with, with, with tax up specifically at the board level.
Tatyana : Yeah, and maybe broader than tax. I mean, I've been tax executive for the the last 21 and a half years. um So there are plenty of tax-related risks that companies can be facing, ah but there are tax policy-related considerations and energy industry-related considerations.
Joe Waltman: Sure.
Tatyana : ah So if any of that can be useful, ah in a board setting, and I'm sure they can be, um then I'd be i'd be happy.
Joe Waltman: Awesome. Awesome. Well, you you heard it here. Someone's available.
Tatyana : All right. And what can I do? So I have, as part of my transition, i've recently back to and so went back to INSEAD and have done an INSEAD coaching certificate course.
Joe Waltman: Hmm.
Tatyana : And So I am a practicing coach. um And again, looking for experience, um but also very happy for people ah interested in coaching or know others who are interested in coaching.
Tatyana : I'd be very happy for my services.
Joe Waltman: Lovely, lovely.
Tatyana : Still at a very reasonable rate because I'm practicing coach.
Joe Waltman: Excellent. And as always, if any ah deals are consummated, I expect my very modest ah referral fee for for hosting this podcast. So just but we're on the honor system. <unk>m I'm sure you'll you'll do the right thing.
Joe Waltman: um But kidding.
Tatyana : Of course.
Joe Waltman: Tatiana, thank you very much for your time. I was very excited. I didn't think a tax conversation could be this this ah this gripping. you You've done a good job.
Tatyana : ah You're kidding. It's a pleasure.
Joe Waltman: Not at all. Not at all. not at all. great Great to see you.
Tatyana : Thank you, Joe.
Joe Waltman: Thanks thanks for your time.
Tatyana : Good to see you. Thank you.
