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Be More Evil & Block Your Mom with Kim Lech
10 Plays10 days ago
What does being evil and blocking your mom have to do with being a good steward of humanity? I guess you'll just have to listen to find out!
This week, Gail welcomes Kim Lech of Oinopo Studio. Kim is a former brand designer, turned brand strategist & world builder, who creates cult leaders out of creatives & helps them become the person they need to be to say and do polarising things without melting into a puddle of anxiety. All with a personality packed visual identity & branded experience to support it.
In this episode, Kim breaks down what it means to be an obsession-worthy brand with a cult following, by leaning into your weird and owning your most polarizing takes. We also discuss launches gone wrong, corporate bullshit, and having a love-hate relationship with education.
You can find Kim on their website, Instagram, and Threads, and you can get their free Cult-Thinking Masterclass here.
Our theme music is by Emily Bjorke, whose new single, Skeletons in Toronto, is available anywhere you listen to music!!
To stay up-to-date on Where's Your Humanity episodes, you can follow me on Instagram, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts, and subscribe on Youtube.
To learn more about Gail and her work, you can go to her website, worksimple.io, or connect with her on Instagram, Threads, and Tiktok.
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Transcript
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:06
Speaker
There is more than enough room. Hold on, Kim. We are and we believe it.
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello, hello, welcome to another episode of Where's Your
Meet Kim Lich
00:00:21
Speaker
Humanity. I'm your host, Gail Fraser, and I'm so excited to be joined today by Kim Lich of Oinopo Studio. Kim specializes in brand design, now brand strategy, and world building for your brand, helping you pivot through and identify your cult leadership for creatives and make people obsessed with your brand. I love your brand and I'm so excited to
Shared Excitement
00:00:49
Speaker
chat with you today. Welcome, Kim. Oh my god, thank you. That was such a fun little intro. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. i know I'm so excited chat chat because obviously we've been in the same online space and seeing each other for a while, but just fun to actually get to sit down for longer than 20 minutes. Yeah, totally.
Kim's Personal Bio
00:01:14
Speaker
I like to start off by saying, what's the bio you wish you could give? Introduce the people to to the Kim beyond the business.
00:01:23
Speaker
ah Okay, so I'm going to like do a deep cut here, right? Who is the Kim beyond the business? Well, I'm a weird kid. ah You know, I'm a theater kid.
00:01:38
Speaker
I've grown up being creative my whole life. But with that comes just like being fucking strange and ah being into strange things. Like i collect clowns, for example, ah in different forms. i love like body horror films. Like the the more gruesome, the better.
00:02:03
Speaker
I'm just like, i don't want to say like I'm super into gross shit, but before I like pivoted my brand, I was trying to make it all about like mold and ah just like the renewal, like the cycle of renewal and things like that. And like mold is gross. Yeah, it smells weird and it's nasty, but it's still beautiful in its own ways. So just I'm just very like...
00:02:33
Speaker
I like I like gross shit. I like weird stuff. That is the Kim beyond the business. And i'm I'm trying to like have that come out a little bit where I can. But yeah. And I love it so much because you do bring that energy. You just embrace the weird. And I think that's why people are drawn to you, because your people are going to be like, this is fun. This is funny. Or, yeah I'm into that, too.
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's I hope that that's that's the vibe. And I encourage other people do the same. It's like, what's the weirdest fucking thing about you? Put it out to the world and you're going to be surprised. That's kind of like what I'm about.
00:03:14
Speaker
As you've like really embraced it in your own brand and as your own business has evolved, how have you seen that play out with the type of people who are coming to you, the type of people who are drawn
Embracing Identity
00:03:26
Speaker
to you? What does that look like? If I'm like talking to like who those people are,
00:03:32
Speaker
It's people who like want to be doing it themselves. Like, oh, I want to show more of myself online on the public square. But there's like some fear there, you know, they because they can't control what eyes are going to be on them. It's very scary to just be like, blah, let me just blah. But I find, and i've been I've been journaling a lot about this recently and reading about it too is just, because I'm i'm queer, my pronouns are they, them. I'm very like openly non-binary and I think like having been queer for so many years of my life, it's like there's no other option for me than just radically being myself when it comes to my identity. So then when it comes to like it just extends and bleeds through everything, right? So I'm like, okay, let's use this like momentum of radical audacity and authenticity, if you will, ah to try and like spread it to as many people as possible.
00:04:33
Speaker
Like we need more weird ideas. Yeah. We really do. i like mold breakers. And I think that's something that the queer community, the neurodivergent community do really well is like, especially so I have ADHD and like... we see the patterns that other people don't see. And
Challenging Norms
00:04:57
Speaker
I, the entire reason that I have the business and the job that I do is because I'm just like, spent my whole corporate career before this being like,
00:05:07
Speaker
But why are we doing it that way? Like, why are we doing it the like oh my god most inefficient way Why am I being asked to like play the game and like kiss ass to someone who is not doing the work that we're doing? And why can't I just make it better for us? And and I don't get that.
00:05:25
Speaker
right And I think that because we have that tendency and no, like, let's fix it. Let's let's do it better. if There's a better way. Let's do that. And the better way is my way. and it's my way. Yeah.
00:05:40
Speaker
yeah But like there's so much cultural expectation of but this is the way we've always done it. And like, okay, but people evolve, technology evolves. Like maybe that's not the best way anymore. Obviously the queer community has made a lot of those strides societally for us as a collective of being like,
00:06:00
Speaker
Maybe let's be like there's not just two super heteronormative gender identities and for us to be more accepting of people being people and being themselves. Yeah, yeah, definitely. and and that stuff is just kind of that's like default for me. Right. Yeah. But. But then it it stretches into thinking back on like, okay, how was I when I was in employment? Like, why did I question everything? Why didn't I want to fit into a box? And, you know, for h r it was like, oh, you're complicated to work with. Or like, why are you questioning these things? Like, these are these are the standard operational procedures. Like, this is how we do it. And I'm like, yeah, ah but also why am I like not allowed to ask about it to like learn more about the reasoning behind it, for example. And whenever you try to veer off a beaten path, you know, it's a paved, paved fucking six lane road. yeah And you're like, let me go into the bush for a little bit. They're like, nope, nope. We're going to it's like in Mario Kart, you know, whenever you drive off Rainbow Road, they like pick you up and they're like, nope, get back here, bitch. Corporate America. And, and yeah, I don't want, i don't want no, nobody to come and like fucking pick me up and put and put me back on the, on this paved massive road. Like I want to see what's in, what's in the bush. Yeah.
Non-traditional Paths
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah. What's that process like when you're helping your own clients see what's in the bush for them? ah so What's in the bush? um You should adopt this as part of your brand strategy. Yeah.
00:07:53
Speaker
We're looking through the bush. We're looking through your bush. um i i ask a lot of questions. i think... um not to like toot my own horn or anything, but this is something that I've been, that I was told recently is that ah when I'm on a call that I do, I am a fantastic listener. No, but I was told by someone else that like you're a really good you're really really good listener and you like pick up on stuff and like can make connections during the call and like follow follow certain threads. So I like to believe that I'm just like good at asking questions and and making those connections from like,
00:08:34
Speaker
a holistic perspective rather than like for someone who's in it who's like okay I have all of these blips that are different pieces but when they're presented to me I see it as like a whole interconnecting web yeah it's a lot of talking and asking questions and listening and like bouncing back and forth it's usually like one thought that a client has ah has that I'm like what if we challenge that Pull on that part a little bit. Pull on it and then and then be like, what if, you know, yeah.
00:09:02
Speaker
A lot of that, ah which which in turn makes it really hard to like describe what I do. oh yeah. Yeah. um I'm sure you can relate. to ah Yes, a thousand percent. How do you approach it when...
00:09:17
Speaker
Your clients are like, okay, clearly they've come to you because they see that you are being your whole self and they want to do that too in their business.
00:09:28
Speaker
But they're a little afraid to put themselves out there for judgment or whoever's going to see or hear this. How do you approach that conversation with them? Well, first of all, I tell them to block their mother. Okay.
00:09:41
Speaker
or any, literally like any family member. Cause like, are they your ideal clients? Are you ever gonna work with those people? No, they're probably just gonna be there as like an overhanging source of judgment. Like they have been your entire life.
00:09:54
Speaker
And like, look, the support is great, but you're messing with my vibe. yeah So I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to go. after After going to therapy for a little bit, that's what I realized. Like, oh my God, there's so much. And like, I knew that from before, but just, it was just so plainly put out to me. Like so much of this stuff comes from our families. And after talking about it,
Family Influence on Education
00:10:18
Speaker
a lot of people,
00:10:19
Speaker
feel the same way. They really, really relate. ah so I'm like, well, just hair. It's okay. You're allowed to block your mother. She can follow you on your on your personal account and see what you're posting, what food you're posting, but she doesn't need to see you talking about your business unless she's like, plop. yeah. i feel like there's so just like starting looking at like what is keeping you from doing this identifying like where' is this fear coming from and what is the first step that we can take to start removing those distractions the fear is always going to be there there's always like oh yeah
00:10:55
Speaker
strangers are a thing and not every stranger is is kind on the internet but when it comes to like the fears that are from you know having been conditioned by something like when we grew up and that has just followed us into adult life so i'm like Yeah. What is it?
00:11:14
Speaker
Where is it coming from? Who told you this? Who instilled this belief into you? you know Exactly. I think back to even when I went decided what to study in college. So like my little background is that i went to university right out of high school and switched majors all the three semesters that I was there and was like, OK, and I'm paying way too much to just not know.
00:11:41
Speaker
And ultimately, during the pandemic, went back to school, studied psychology because I was like, this is something that is going to be interesting enough for me to get the degree that says pay me more than minimum wage.
00:11:56
Speaker
But like looking back, i took an AP psychology class in high school and it was my favorite class. And I loved it. I thought it was so interesting. But I came from a like psychology is not a real science family.
00:12:11
Speaker
Oh, shit. Okay. and so I'm like looking back, had I not had that voice in my head, i probably would have just started by studying that and maybe would have just like gone on the traditional four year path. And I don't have any regrets. I've like been led to all the right places. But I yeah, I look back on that and I'm just like, oh, yeah, because I had that voice in my head that that wasn't worth studying.
00:12:38
Speaker
what What changed for you then? I'm i'm curious. i mean, mostly life experience. so when I dropped out of college at 19 and worked until i was...
00:12:50
Speaker
22 then went back to school during the pandemic because unlike my peers, it was kind of like a natural break for me because it's really hard once you start working to then like put your entire life on hold and like go back to school, especially for someone like me where I'm really using school as a means to an end. I honestly hated being in college. It's not how I learn best.
00:13:14
Speaker
Like I learn by doing and that's why I like working. It's not like... I get to kind of like figure out the puzzle as I go. But I was just like, well, now I can tell a corporation to pay me more
Value of Degrees
00:13:26
Speaker
than $12.50 hour.
00:13:28
Speaker
Did it work? Oh, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. because i yeah no because it's So obviously, I'm in Sweden, in case anybody's wondering. ah So education is very different here compared to the US. s But the consensus that from like what I understand is that even like having a degree today doesn't matter that much anymore. But yeah, it could be the difference between... like i I was in that situation where i had I got a job and then whenever I had a ah degree to confirm my skills in that job, they upped my pay, which was interesting. So, like, yeah, it it does have value, but... um It's very interesting here in the U.S. because, like, obviously right now is a really shitty time to be graduating from college at all because the job market's so bad, but...
00:14:20
Speaker
It still matters. Like you almost get get a corporate job if you don't have a degree and they don't care what it's in unless you're in like medical engineering education, like the things where you do have more of a path career.
00:14:35
Speaker
But in corporate, I always say all the jobs are the same. They're just a different flavor. And so you can learn how to do any of them if you have the interest to learn. So it doesn't matter in that way in that no one cares what your degree is in, but you still need the piece of paper and usually like thousands, tens of thousands of dollars of debt to prove that you have a good work ethic. Yeah. Yeah. it's That's what it's about.
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's the fucked up part where it's like they just want to know that you're a good like cog in the machine. No, truly. and that that's the that's what a piece of paper proves that like, oh, you went through all of that and you got out of it. And this is the receipt. And I think first as someone who really didn't like college and and didn't like I mean, I was undiagnosed ADHD and I was a good student, but like at the cost of my mental health and sanity. I was just like, well, this is just like, you're basically asking me to prove that I can tolerate bullshit.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah. like yeah and Because I was like, I just want to be working. you learn everything on the job anyway. For the most like, again, for most corporate industries, unless you have like a super specialized degree, like you're learning 90 percent of it on the job and the rest of it is like communication. Like the 10 percent that you're not learning on the job is like soft skills.
00:16:05
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm just like. Okay, well, if you need that, you're just asking that I put up with four years of bullshit. And you're just hoping that if I have a college degree, I will put up with however many decades of your bullshit.
00:16:19
Speaker
so did you say that you worked between high school and college? I worked in high school and then went to college right out and then dropped out 19. So I went to like three semesters here, a year and a half of college and then worked for like four years before going back to school. Right, right. Did you feel like, sorry, I'm just like interviewing you now. No, that's okay. Do you feel like having the work experience helped you like when you came back to studying?
00:16:51
Speaker
Like did that make a difference? Yes and no it didn't change any of my like behaviors of like not being able to write an essay in anything longer than like one sitting. I think it just made me care less.
00:17:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. on because i guess not that serious. like it was Yeah, I'm really lucky to have... had that experience where I have had a different job pretty much every year of my career where it's like different industry, different job title, completely different role.
Job Satisfaction Journey
00:17:25
Speaker
Like, yeah. and that I've had a lot of luck with that of just kind of like going with my gut of being like, okay, and I've learned all that I can learn here. um, I don't like this and I like doing this and I want to do more of this and less of that. and when I went back to school, the interactions that I did have with other students were like, it's OK if you don't know, like you're going to figure it out. And I think that that's really valuable, too. Like that is, to me, the most valuable part of my very like windy career is that I have a very strong sense of self and what I'm good at and what I do and don't like to do. yeah Because.
00:18:05
Speaker
I've kind of trusted that I didn't have to be on the like, stay at this job for a decade and work my way up in a linear fashion because that just wasn't going to work. Yeah, I ah can't believe that people like do that. but They're like, i want to climb the ladder in this one place here. And that's what I'm going to do for my entire life. No, but what you're saying is like, it's reminding me of ah like this thing of like not having it figured out and also like not having it figured out for so long because it reminds me to when I was...
00:18:38
Speaker
I must have been 15. Like when we go to high school here, you you pick like a specialization. That's so crazy to me. i can't even imagine.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah. ah I went to theater. So, you know, but there's like so many different and like they're quite like when you're 15 and you're being asked to pick ah between so many different options is essentially like mini, you know, college. Yeah.
00:19:08
Speaker
So you're learning about something very, very specific and it all feels very serious. Like when you're 15 and you're like, okay, now you got to pick like, what is your life path going to be? It feels so, so serious. Yeah. And I was like,
00:19:23
Speaker
I just want to play. just want to keep playing. um So I went into theater. But then that feeling has, I'm just like realizing it now as you're talking, like that feeling has like I'm fucking 32, almost 33 today. It has followed me throughout my whole life. Like, you know, my CV looks like a fucking CVS receipt. It's so long. um Just switching in between things, staying in one thing for like three months, going to another for for five, six, whatever. Never staying anywhere for longer than a year ever.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah. Unless it was something that had to do with theater or like performance or creativity, which those are scarce, those jobs. Yeah. um But still, like, even if it was in within that field, it was also like, OK, but what do I like? Do I want to like do I want to be on stage? Do I want to be behind the stage? I've done both. Right. Yeah.
00:20:28
Speaker
And I was also just like, shit, I don't, I don't know. um And in both cases, they're like, there's just so many options constantly all the time. um and now just like running, running a business and being like, okay, ah I am being kind of shuffled around into these boxes by like coaches or people that I look up to online. Like they're not doing it.
00:20:58
Speaker
purposefully on me yeah but you're like listening you're like okay i love what you're like i love your beliefs and and what you're on about and your process and your methods and i want to follow it but then there i i get to a point where i'm like this is starting to feel too much like a box um yeah so i'm like no you know yeah yeah Well, and I think, too, that that speaks to something really universal for a lot of us who've had like more unconventional paths. Like my biggest fear going into college, because like, again, university, like college is really expensive here and it feels very final.
00:21:39
Speaker
when you're making that decision of like, okay, well now I have to choose what to do for the rest of my life. And whether that's at 15 or 18 here, you're just like, how am I supposed to know? Like, I don't, I remember having my first, like, what do you want to be when you grow up assignment in second grade? when I was like seven and I was, I literally like broke down crying. was like, how am I supposed to know? And my parents were like, it's not that serious. Like, Yeah, and it's like, but the paper is telling me need to decide right now. But like that feeling followed me where I was just like, but how am I supposed to pick one thing that I want to do forever?
00:22:22
Speaker
And I think that's something that's like really freeing as a business owner. And I wonder if you feel the same way of like you get to evolve in your business. And as you evolve and change, which we all inevitably do, And like your
Evolving Business Strategies
00:22:38
Speaker
interests pivot. And I know you've mentioned like being a brand designer first and now you're more in the brand strategy and like but like you get to do that because it's your business. I yeah, I do get to do that. But i like I haven't like accepted that until literally like last week. Yeah. After after having like a huge identity crisis. So I've I've been like in a in a program with this pivot of like, OK, I need to figure out my fucking offer suite because I don't I didn't have one before. And now where it's like, OK, what is it that I'm actually good at building everything around that? And now I've reached a point where i was introduced to like a completely different business structure. and I was like, well, that sounds more appealing to me. But now I've been doing this thing for like six months. And I was talking talking about it with one of my fellow students in this program. And she was like, well, you don't have to like, you know, again, you don't have to keep yourself in this box that
00:23:38
Speaker
we are like working within, you still have the freedom to like do whatever you want. And I'm like, okay, but like, like really, like, can i really do that? Like, cause, cause it feels like I have been going a little bit to school with like some group programs. I do like that they feel, i like, I love going to school. I love learning. So, um So it really feels like I have been going to school. Like, you know, we have a ah call every single week and it's been going on for so long and I have the assignments and everything. um
00:24:09
Speaker
So I'm like, okay, well, so you're telling me that I can like deviate from this. And also it's like the artistic black and white thinking that really...
00:24:19
Speaker
ah likes to fuck me up in those ways where I'm like, no brain, like we we can do that. i don't want to say like carve my own path because it's such a like overused way of saying it. But this whole thing of like, let's go into the bush and with a machete and just like see what's out there where nobody has gone before, like uncharted territory and just make a structure that works for me and what I want to do. Because I've spent a lot of time looking at what other people are doing because I didn't know any better, you know?
00:24:53
Speaker
I think about that so often because in what I do with helping small business owners with their systems and how to like run the backend admin tedious side of their business that are easier. So many people come to me very embarrassed by what they have because it feels very cobbled together or like they have all these kind of duct tape together systems that aren't working really well. And I'm like, no we're all figuring it out.
00:25:23
Speaker
I too am figuring it out as I go. We all have a limited amount of time and skill sets in different areas. And like I've seen large corporations that are less functional than how you have set up your business. Literally, yeah. yeah But we're all figuring it out. And that's part of business. And whether you have a business degree or whether you are like, here's my passion, here's what I'm good at. I'm going to start a business and figure it out as I go. We're all doing that to some degree because there's so much to know and you have to learn it along the way.
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah. I have always known that. But it's so easy to like whenever you yourself are in the and the messy middle, it's just like, oh, it's so different because it's me. Like it's so hard because it's me or or you look at.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah. Like when you're talking about systems, like you look at someone's back end and it's like I have literally seen every single possible combination of this. And the fact that like you were able to actually figure something out.
00:26:25
Speaker
ah by your own and you like systems are not your thing. That's that's what I do. I'm just like, um I don't work with systems, but I'm like, I know what I want to do. So let's see if I can do it for like as low cost as possible, preferably zero. And like, that's the challenge for me. Right. Because I'm a problem solver. Like I've always been a problem solver. um So yeah, but no, I really, I'm just like, yeah, I don't, ah I'm not going to be sure. I don't want to show you my zaps and my whatever I have back there. Yeah.
00:26:57
Speaker
I'm like, it works, you know? and that's where you start. And also, i think it's like not funny and like a funny haha, but it's such an interesting part of the human condition that people who are hiring me because they know they need system support are now embarrassed that they need system support. Yeah.
00:27:19
Speaker
And I'm just like, actually, like, No, fam. Like, that's why I'm here. like yeah I'm like, you wouldn't be hiring me if you were already really great at this.
00:27:30
Speaker
That's and that's the case for so I think literally for everyone.
Business Management Challenges
00:27:34
Speaker
It's just, you know, you hire a copywriter for copywriting support and you're embarrassed by the copy that's on your website. Yeah. You hire a brand designer. Like that's it's the same.
00:27:44
Speaker
and Everyone fucking feels like that. and it's like, why? Why? i think it's so personal to like our businesses are so personal to us that you're like embarrassed about what you don't know.
00:27:57
Speaker
I still think it's it's just so impressive, even if you're embarrassed by what you don't know, but you still did it your own way. Yeah. And did it anyway. And that's that's impressive as fuck.
00:28:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's really telling to like us and literally every business owner ever of just like moving through life, especially being neurodivergent and going through these like very rigid structures that weren't built for us. I'm like, we did it anyway. Yeah, it might maybe burnt me out and traumatized me and all of this stuff, but I did it anyway.
00:28:33
Speaker
Yeah. I always say like you wouldn't be a business owner if you didn't really care because it's like a crash course trial by fire self-exploration who am I and how do I work and what works and what doesn't. And this program that I would launched and was super excited about it.
00:28:55
Speaker
no one signed up or it failed or i ran it and actually i hated it yeah it's just so much of the human condition that we all feel like a little bit embarrassed that there's error in trial and error. Who knew? who knew how we don't try everything the first time, but like And as someone who like varies, like learn by doing, but also like I would say more or less reformed perfectionist. But like you can only know if it's going to work if you try it.
00:29:27
Speaker
And sometimes that means you're going to learn that it doesn't work. Yeah, and that has like it has to be okay. I think it's very therapeutic in a way, but like in the most like violent way.
00:29:40
Speaker
It's so like revealing about ourselves. That like, well, shit, I didn't know I sucked at this thing. yeah I got to guess I got to deal with that now. Well, and I put together a done with you program earlier this year and i was super excited about it, like marketed it super hard. I only i was hoping to have like four people in it and then had like two and I was just like, OK, that's fine. And because it's a little bit more like a course because it's like I'm building out the structure for them to go through and I'm more or less like an editor teacher unsurprisingly as somebody who hated coursework and like the structure of how school worked and having homework and whatever a the people who were drawn to me and my personality
00:30:35
Speaker
unsurprisingly also felt that way. And then just no one started. Like the two people who signed up just like also didn't start anything. Yeah. And and then also i didn't want to create it because I was going to like do it as i own as I went through. And i was like, okay, they haven't started it. And then that was like, I was no longer motivated to like go in and create the content for it because it felt so much like homework. yeah And I was just like,
00:31:04
Speaker
okay, like, let's take a step back. And I ended up just crediting them for done for you services. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Because I was just like, clearly, like, this also isn't working for you. i don't think it's working for me. And I don't want to be putting a ton of my time and energy into it. If every time I sit down to do it, I'm just dreading it. hmm.
00:31:28
Speaker
And like I said, I was so excited about this program. I was like, I think this is the direction that my business is going in. Like it's really scalable. And then I sat down to do it and I was like, I think I hate this.
00:31:39
Speaker
I hate this actually. That's rough. That's so damn rough. But also like big of you to just be so real with yourself and with your clients and just be like, I think we all hate what i what I'm trying to do here. So let's yeah just not do it. And like, also, I think for me, it was like very freeing. I just like sent them a voice note and I was like, hey, so like, here's what i'm thinking. Like, both of them were just like, yes, that. Because again, like we'd been like a month and a half into the program and neither of them had started any of it. This is not me ragging on them. Like, again, i had not built out like the rest of the program yet. So I was like, yeah, it was very freeing for me to be like, OK, this thing that I'm dreading and that I don't want to babysit, like feel like I'm babysitting these clients. I work with wedding industry. It is peak wedding season right now. So I'm like, I know they're busy. Like, I know that they're just like they don't have time for this either. hmm. And I did warn them of that before they signed up, that I didn't necessarily recommend doing it during busy season. But they were just like, no, i'm going to have time.
00:32:50
Speaker
and then they didn't. And I was just like, well, I don't want to bug them. I don't want to babysit them. And then I was like, don't think I want to babysit anyone. Like, I think actually i just want to do what I'm good at. And I think that's what they want to. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:03
Speaker
Like, all right, never doing courses because everyone's going to hate it. Because we all hate homework. like Oh my god. I'm truly like on the opposite ah side of the spectrum. And I love that for you. um i'm just like all the worksheets, all of the things, all of the homework, all of the recorded lessons, everything. i just love sitting down and binging a course. You know what I mean? I don't, but...
00:33:36
Speaker
um I can't tell you how many courses I've spent money on and never opened the email.
00:33:45
Speaker
Oh, but I am very selective. I'm just like, is this something that I'm actually going to sit down and like at least watch for an hour or two right now? Because I do know that a lot of folks who are just like, I'm just collecting. It's in the graveyard. It's some folder in my inbox. I don't know. For me, video content or like course content where I just have to listen and also make deadlines for myself um that just doesn't it doesn't work for me yeah and I know it doesn't but sometimes I still like get catfished into thinking that it will it's the ah some people are just so fucking good at marketing and I hate when I fall for it and I get in when it' when they're just like it's only 27 dollars and I'm like
00:34:30
Speaker
All right. Like, sure. It's not a lot of money, but I'm also like very, I hold onto my dollars like yeah so tightly. ah so it's like, unless you like 110% convince me, I'm not going to spend any money, even if it's only $27. And then I get into it and I'm like,
00:34:46
Speaker
wow, this was not what, okay, the marketing and the what's the content here? Clearly, the marketing was for me. well what's ah whatever is in here is not for me. Yeah, I never get to that second second stage. The marketing was for me and then ah the content sat in my email and I never found out if the content was for me. don't know don't know but hey uh i mean it i think it also because you you mentioned that you learn best when you're doing stuff and i think that that that also says a lot to this whole situation but i feel like i'm such i just want to like sponge i feel such a general generalist sometimes but then like generalist it has become like a dirty word
00:35:35
Speaker
Which I think is so dumb. Yeah, it is. like It's i like because of capitalism. I love knowing a little bit about everything, you know?
00:35:46
Speaker
And I think that's so valuable. Like, I think we all want that for ourselves. Like, I've always been so confused by people who are just like so uninterested in learning about anything outside of their like one career path. Or I'm like, the the world is vast.
00:36:06
Speaker
There's a lot out there to learn and you don't want to learn about any of it. You just want to learn about corporate finance? You only get one life, you know?
00:36:17
Speaker
You've got to learn as much as you can. like Bring it in. Absorb it. Yeah. I want to pivot this conversation because I know that um one of your specialties that I want to let you be able to yap on and speak to cults.
Creating Cult Followings
00:36:35
Speaker
Oh, shit. Yeah. When I say like your business is a cult, right? That can be interpreted in a few different ways. um But my point that I want to make with that is that it's about obsession at the end of the day. Like we all want people to like be obsessed with our businesses and what we do because that's when people buy from us. Like, you know, you have it's a different way of calling people fans, essentially, like, you know I'm obsessed with you.
00:37:05
Speaker
i love everything you do. I'm obsessed. Whatever. We want that. We crave it. We crave it. And I think that it's the same kind of obsession and like following around an idea, like the way that the specific way that you do things and your takes on the industry, your like beliefs that are very polarizing.
00:37:27
Speaker
There are so many parallels between that and how... cults operate but it's not only like I've chosen cults because you know I'm a weird I'm a weird kid and I enjoy playing with the like stereotype of like a charismatic leader I have gotten a little bit of backlash for it where people that have like actually been in cults and ah have escaped cults they don't find the language very charming And at that, like, it's not my job to to convince anyone of it. It's just like, I get it. Like, it's not for you. just Just block me because you're not going to want to see my content in your feed, probably.
00:38:05
Speaker
But for me, it's more about the stereotype and the parody of it. it's not just limited to cults it's behind religions as well. Like the same kind of like the way that people come together as communities around one specific belief, uh, around religions, around, you know, political ideologies, ah like philosophies, all of those things. But yeah, I chose cults cause it's like a little bit sinister and I'm just like a little bit of a sinister kind of person. Um, but,
00:38:38
Speaker
As leaders online, ah you do have to be charismatic. Like you you have to. and it's And it just happens like, yeah, you have to be a charismatic leader. And it just happens to be that that's what, you know, the leader of a cult is like, beware of charismatic leaders because they're going to like bring you in and brainwash you. When in in this case, it's more about being talking about what you believe and your methods your way of doing things and again your your polarizing belief in a way that makes people like pay attention to it and be like hey hang on a second this is something that i okay you have a point like all right let me i'm curious like let me follow this and see and see like what else do you have to say um or like it introduces an idea like a way of of doing business that you weren't aware of before.
00:39:35
Speaker
And it's not like about bringing people into my world and worshiping me. You know, that's not what it is about at all. I want to bring people in to be like, Hey, let's worship ourselves. And like what what you're about and like broadcast that into the world. Yeah. I have this concept called like a cult of one, you know, that I'm like, I make ah cult leaders out of creatives and all of this stuff. The concept of the cult in that context is not one person that a big group of people gathers around. It's just, it's always only going to be you and you're just spreading your ideas. And those people that you're spreading your ideas from, they're making it into something that belongs to them. yeah
00:40:26
Speaker
And they also create their own like little, little cults of ones. So it's, it's, I want to just like be very clear with like how I'm using the language because it can be interpreted and like, yeah. hang on a minute, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, what do you mean you have a cult? That it's just the idea of spreading ideas in a way that makes people listen, but the ideas themselves are not malicious in any way. It's yeah it's like about genuinely like helping helping people. Yeah. um Well, especially in so our society today, like we're basically taught to question everything that we do, dislike ourselves to some level. Like as we've talked about, like already of this conversation, like as a business owner, you have to be kind of radically accepting of yourself because you're going to learn a lot about you, whether you like it or not. Yeah.
00:41:23
Speaker
By being... in that space where you have that kind of like, as you call it, like self-worship or like self-obsession where you're like, okay, I'm so passionate about what I'm doing. i think this is awesome.
00:41:35
Speaker
You also draw in yeah the people who are like, oh, that's really cool. And as a result, like, yeah, you get to create that community two where it's like, yes, sure, cult in the like extreme version not necessarily about creating community with the individuals in the cult yeah um on the broader context. But that like that's something that I've found really rewarding about being in business is that the people who are drawn to me
00:42:08
Speaker
for the way that I show up in my business are generally like people that I'm like, yeah, you're cool. I'm like, I would want to hang out with and all of my clients are are really cool people. and as a result, like it builds this kind of community. and so you get in the cult of one conversation, they see you doing it and they're like, oh, maybe I could do that too. Maybe I can also radically accept myself. Yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly.
00:42:40
Speaker
You get it, you get it. I'm still, again, still pivoting into this version of talking about it and figuring out like how to talk about it as well, like succinctly. so that's like what I'm working on right now. But in all of that, it's so it's a very like messy, messy process. I'm all about messy action, by the way. That's also like a big. big thing malicious intent cults aside yeah when it comes to obsession they're they're still built up like there's a structure to them is similar to like how religions are built up there's a belief system behind behind all of these and they have like building blocks i've become obsessed with the idea of like creating obsession and so i have this is like me like um my academia brain like fully on fire and So I'm like, OK, let me learn about belief systems. Let me like see how I can apply it to my work, see how I can help other people create their own. At the end of the day, it's just it's about fucking show up and and say something, say something polarizing that will like scare the shit out of you and see how people react.
00:43:49
Speaker
They're either going to love you or they're going to hate you. But there's like the people who love you are going to they're going to become obsessed with you. And growing a business doesn't come from like being liked comes from either like being loved or hated.
00:44:03
Speaker
oh yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to I'm figuring out again, figuring out how to talk about it. That's why like this conversation is very messy. But the like all of the ideas are there and I'm building building this more complex web of of ideas of how can I like start talking about this conversation?
00:44:21
Speaker
in my content in a way that's like digestible because I always feel like it has to come with like a very long disclaimer or yeah I get very long winded when I talk about it, as you can tell. Yeah, that's where I
Embracing Polarizing Identities
00:44:34
Speaker
am right now. But it's it's resonating with a lot of people. And it's something that I truly like can't get out of my head.
00:44:41
Speaker
And that's when I know at least that an idea is like worth pursuing because it's just like you're just obsessed with it. Like you can't stop thinking about it. Yes. And I love the concept of your business succeeds because people either love or hate you. and i think about this like in the form of friendship too. Like I've been having this conversation a lot recently where lots of people, especially women or femmes, are conditioned to be like, everyone should like me. and I'm like, you don't like everyone.
00:45:13
Speaker
Yeah. First of all. So I'm like, Do you like everyone? No. You're going to be that person for somebody that they don't like. I think back to when I was in school, my little undiagnosed ADHD self being the yapper of the class.
00:45:29
Speaker
And I had like very close friends that thought I was a hoot and like fun. And I had people who were just like, she's the most annoying person I've ever met in my life. hmm.
00:45:43
Speaker
And it exists in all parts of our community sphere that like, yeah especially if you're sharing polarizing information and playing into the theatrics of it. Yeah. And you're going to be this person that someone doesn't like.
00:45:58
Speaker
And as a result, you're going to find the people who are like, I love this. I'm obsessed with this. Yeah, exactly. It's not like much more complicated than that, really. Like you said a very...
00:46:12
Speaker
very succinctly there of just yeah yeah I have nothing else to add that that was it that's it that's literally it like And and for for me, it has been interesting to figure out like which groups don't like what I'm doing because my my brand voice is also like I play into it a lot. You know, I'm I'm speaking to demons and i have a I have a secret temple and we're doing sacrifices and we're like we're praying at the altar and all of these things.
00:46:44
Speaker
And before I like post stuff that is like playing more into that type of brand voice, I'm always like, I wonder if I have someone in my audience who's like religious that's going to read this and think that I'm super offensive to their faith or whatever. And then also like, I wonder if, you know, people from who have actually been hurt by actual cults out there, if they're going to see this and think that I'm a horrible person for doing this.
00:47:10
Speaker
which has happened. And like, that's, that's completely fair. I like, I acknowledge that that's the case, but I also can't be like responsible for the traumas that other people have. Yeah.
00:47:26
Speaker
Because then i that that's when I would blend in. Right. And you also, we can't please everyone. Yeah. And everyone has their own journey. And like, honestly, I think if I saw my brand as like a kid, like I was raised by ah stay at home dad and ah we were raised very much like boys. and like, like,
00:47:50
Speaker
i like being as hot pink as I am online is like so fun for me now, but it's also like such a deconstruction. and like, again, that like radical self-acceptance of like, yeah, I don't have to show up in like a black suit of like, I don't have to wear a blazer to my brand shoot. I don't like, and yeah,
00:48:18
Speaker
That like it's more fun for me to be that way. But I also think that there are points at my life where if I was looking at my content now, I'd be like. What is she doing?
00:48:31
Speaker
I also think that that's like, that's good. That's like part of growth. Yeah. And everyone's on their own own path and you can't please everyone. But I think that you have the right approach to it, which is just like you can accept that this might not land for you. And if you find this offensive, like, just don't don't engage.
00:48:52
Speaker
Block me. I'm probably not your person. And that's OK. Yeah. ah Like as long as I'm not, you know, being like racist, homophobic, like any of those things, like I'm still going to offend people, even though even if I'm like I can be a good person, but I can still offend people or like it will happen. Yeah. That I will offend people with how I speak, with how blunt I am, with like what what I speak of and all of these things because of the experiences that other folks have had. And that being said, like I have, you know,
00:49:26
Speaker
previous clients that I've worked with many times who like have religious trauma and they find my brand hilarious like yeah so it's it's also like you can have you can still have the same background but think of it in in two completely different ways too so I'm like at that point I'm like it's It just cannot be on me to now to be like, all right, let me watch what I'm saying. um and I think that is very, but I do think that a lot of people feel that way. ah And that it's very telling to like this fear of like, I just want to be liked by everyone. I'm like, that's great. ah But do you want to like be loved?
00:50:09
Speaker
Do you want to do you want people to be obsessed with you? Because if you say yes to that, then there are people who are going to not like you and are going to hate you. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Like all the pro AI people online.
00:50:23
Speaker
You're fighting with me daily. no. ah Oh, my God. Okay. are you You're on that side, huh? Oh, I really am. Damn.
00:50:33
Speaker
But I don't want to talk about that right now. um I want to pivot us as we come to the end of the episode and give you a moment to speak to your humanity hot take.
00:50:49
Speaker
Okay. Please take this the right way. We need to be a little bit more like evil, but like evil in like, not not like not like billionaire evil, but I mean like you know mischievous rubs rubs hands together ah type of evil where it's like, I'm gonna fucking do this and you can't say anything or like, I'm gonna say this, I'm gonna publish this and nobody can fucking tell me anything.
00:51:24
Speaker
because it's getting it's going out there that's like because like that's like what's at the in my frontal lobe right now is just like fucking like just radical put yourself out there type of energy that uh and it kind of ah accumulates into like i think um we should be more evil And by that, I mean like ah like the leftist type of evil. Where we just want people to thrive.
00:51:57
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. ah But you know, like ah steal from corporations. um Do, i don't know if this works, but like. you know do charge chargebacks and get fucking money back type of stuff like from big big businesses uh be more evil to big fucking corporations uh as the consumer do whatever you can like that's my humanity hot take honestly couldn't agree more
00:52:28
Speaker
Yeah. Being evil for good. Being evil for good. Yeah. ah Because i I wrote it on threads once. I was like, I think we should be more evil. And I got like...
00:52:39
Speaker
The only comments I got were from people who don't follow me. And they're like, what the fuck are you on about? I'm like, no, listen. Meanwhile, everyone who follows you is like, yes. Yeah.
00:52:52
Speaker
Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we get like, we're in on the bit. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I did see someone somewhere to that short people should allow, should be allowed to be evil. I'm five, three, by the way, short people should allow to be evil because for them is just like mischief. And I'm like, yes, exactly. but Yeah. yeah i
Connecting with Kim
00:53:16
Speaker
love it. Well, Kim, where can people find you and all of your hot takes on the internet?
00:53:23
Speaker
Well, I'm very active on threads. My handle is oinopo.studio everywhere. that's O-I-N-O-P-O dot studio.
00:53:35
Speaker
ah My website is currently under construction, but you can still check it out. It's oinopo.com. I write a newsletter every Thursday called Charismatic Leader, where I talk about all of these things that we spoke about today. Structured obsession, creating a cult following, all of that stuff.
00:53:55
Speaker
And all of my links are on my social medias. So yes. And I will be sharing them in the show notes as well. Thanks. So if you enjoyed this conversation, go find and follow Kim. Also, your email newsletter is one of the only ones that I read. oh my God. If you're not on Kim's email list, change that.
00:54:18
Speaker
And thanks for being here, Kim. It was so good to talk to you. Thank you so much. This was great. Thanks so much for listening. I'm your host, Gail Fraser. And for more information about Where's Your Humanity, you can check out at Where's Your Humanity pod on Instagram. And for more information about me and the work that I do, you can go to my website, worksimple.io, which is also my Instagram and threads handle. Our lovely theme music is brought to you by Emily Bjorki, and you can go check out her album, Are You Going to Heaven or Hell, anywhere you listen to music.
00:54:50
Speaker
Thanks for being here, and I'll talk to you later.