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Episode 11: Discovering Dalcroze – Music Through Movement and Play
42 Plays1 month ago
What happens when music education goes beyond notes on a page and into the whole body? In this episode of Play Now, Play for Life, host Aaron Hansen sits down with Lori Forden, Chair of the Board of Trustees for the Dalcroze Society of America, and Dr. Jeremy Dittus, Diplôme Supérieur and Director of The Dalcroze School of Music and Movement. Together, they explore how Dalcroze education transforms rhythm, solfege, and improvisation into powerful movement-based learning experiences.
Dalcroze Society of America: https://dalcrozeusa.org/
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Transcript
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi everyone, you are listening to Play Now, Play for Life, a podcast by music educators. I'm your host, Aaron Hansen. I'm a former music teacher for 29 years and now a part of the West Music Team.
00:00:22
Speaker
Every episode, we sit down and chat with experts in music education to learn about tricks of the trade and topics in music education.
00:00:33
Speaker
And I am so excited that our topic today is Dow Crows. I think it's such a great thing and I can't wait to talk about it. So our guests today are Lori Forden, who is chair of the board of trustees for Dow Crows Society of America and Jeremy Didis.
00:00:53
Speaker
Jeremy, you have to tell us your title because I can't pronounce it. So I have a Diploma Superior in the Method Jacques Dow Crows. That's an amazing title. So we have two great people to talk about Dale Crowe's music education today, and it's going to be awesome. So thank you both for being here. Could we just start a little bit about hearing about your personal education, your music education journey, and also how you came into your first steps with Dale Crowe's?
00:01:29
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. So um I came to music education as a second career. And so as I was studying for that, and I was studying for my praxis exams, um I was doing the studying and looking up and I was, I was looking at the different Dalcro's, Orv, Kodai, and all those things. And um I was looking up Dalcro's and I noticed that, um, Del Coroz was happening in Denver. Um, and so that's when I started to learn more about it and got interested in it. And then I signed up for, um, the summer classes and, um, the two week intensive.
00:02:08
Speaker
And I gotta say, I was hooked. Like from the moment I went to that first, um, summer Institute and, um, Jeremy was the, is the leader of the school that, um, I attended cause he was living, um, Denver at the time.
00:02:24
Speaker
And so that's how I got into Dow Crows. And um it really, you know, as I grew in learning Dow Crows, it really helped what was happening in the classroom um for me.
00:02:38
Speaker
And I was able to, you know, help help kids to move and learn in this different way. And it was just a really good fit for me personally um in how I wanted to do things in the classroom.
00:02:53
Speaker
So that's my, that's my background and my story. Can I ask this question? I ah just have so many questions today, but what drew you to the Dow Crows approach? You know, i think for me, um, the best way I can describe it is, is it lit my whole brain up, my whole body in a whole brain, just as I was moving and using my ears, right. Listening.
00:03:21
Speaker
And i was looking around the room at other people and moving and how they were interpreting what they were hearing and how they were moving. We were all doing it together. and i think the communal experience as well.
00:03:34
Speaker
and We know that there's a lot of, you know, there's, there's science around, you know, how we, you know, that happens in our brains and how that really um enhances an experience for a person. um All those things just mixed together and then doing the things that were um for me as a learner, ah challenge.
00:03:53
Speaker
um yeah Of course, I went into this already knowing you know so many things, like knowing what a quarter note is, eighth note is, was not why I was there, right? But I was there to experience this in a different way and learn how to teach that. But just even taking these elements that can seem so basic to us and putting them in new context and new light,
00:04:13
Speaker
um by putting them into your body with whole body movement, it just, I just can't say it another way other than it just lights up your brain in a whole nother way. And it, and it was just, um, it was something that I just wanted to do more and more of because wanted to learn how to do that. And then of course, um, once I got that bug for myself personally, I was like, uh, just, I have to, this is the way I have to teach.
00:04:37
Speaker
If it's good for me, I'm going to love to teach this way. And, um, that's so rewarding when you can see that in students and you see them moving and you see them having fun, um especially in a public school setting. If they, you know, are those students who are like, you know, we all know the students, Oh, I don't do music or we don't do music or whatever it is.
00:04:57
Speaker
But to see them moving and being able to do these things and learning about music, even if they didn't think they were going to, you know, that day in that, in that way. Um,
00:05:09
Speaker
Those things really just, that's what keeps me going. And that's what, you know, leads me to volunteer my time to help this organization and everything as well. And Jeremy, what's your background?
00:05:21
Speaker
Well, I was really fortunate that when I went to undergrad school that Mary DeBria was my teacher and she um what is also diplomat like myself.
00:05:33
Speaker
and And was just so fortunate that this was a part of the curriculum at the Baldwin-Wallace Conservatory of Music and cle in Cleveland, Ohio. And so every week we had movement classes, Delcro's Eurythmics, and um I used to be a gymnast, so I was a very physical person and um I came to music rather late in life but in terms of serious study.
00:05:59
Speaker
So it absolutely fit me like a glove. understanding things in a kinesthetic way just made sense to me. um And I found that it was a wonderful vehicle to find personal expression and to uncover personal expression that maybe i didn't realize was there.
00:06:19
Speaker
So it was really great. And when I went to graduate school and I was finished um ah with the my master's degree, I was really kind of in a pickle because i felt like I had this amazing music theory training that I really enjoyed. And I also had this very deep um performance background.
00:06:43
Speaker
But I felt like those two worlds did not mesh well together. And so I remembered back to my undergrad days and that that experience of feeling music from the inside out.
00:06:56
Speaker
And it made such a difference. And I thought, you know what? I want to look more into this. So when I started my doctoral work in piano performance, I went to the Longy School in...
00:07:10
Speaker
Boston, Massachusetts in Cambridge. And I started my Delcro certification and went through all of that training. I did my Delcro's professional certificate there and my Delcro's license.
00:07:23
Speaker
And then when I finished and I was out in the world doing what I was doing, it became clear that something needed to change because people were asking for teacher training and I just didn't have the um the authority to do that.
00:07:39
Speaker
So then I packed up and moved to Geneva, Switzerland and studied for my Diplôme Sperior and came out in 2010 and started my school. so That is the the the story as it goes.
00:07:54
Speaker
Okay. I have so many questions. Did you just feel like as you were growing as an educator that Dow Crows was like, okay, this is, this is my path.
00:08:06
Speaker
This is, that's kind of what I'm hearing, but. um You know, what's really funny is that I had, i did not realize I was going to be so involved in education the way that I am now.
00:08:18
Speaker
Um, I mean, my all of my music degrees are in performance with the exception of my Delcros credentials. and um And I think that it wasn't until I was just finished with my my DMA that I thought I don't know what I want to do.
00:08:38
Speaker
I'm not sure if I really want to go into academic work, which is what most people do when they finish a terminal degree like that. and um And at that moment, someone called me up on the phone and ah asked me to come do a workshop for them.
00:08:53
Speaker
And at that workshop was a guy by the name of William Westney, who wrote, who's written a bunch of books and one of them that I just love called The Perfect Wrong Note. And he was there and I ended up doing a masterclass and he came to my masterclass and I totally fanned out, you know, was one of those things. Oh my gosh.
00:09:12
Speaker
Bill Westney's in my class. And it's interesting because Bill studied Delcroze when he was a child. So he has this from a different perspective, even from both Laurie and myself who came to it as adults. and um And he said something to me that I've never forgotten, and it was super kind, but he said, you know, you you were born to do this work.
00:09:31
Speaker
This is what you were made for. And it was funny because as soon as I made the decision that I wasn't going to go and search for an academic position, but rather I was going to um develop Delcro's in Denver, the time I was living in Denver, it seemed like one door after another just seemed to open.
00:09:50
Speaker
So um I'm not sure if I believe in kismet and all of that, but it it did kind of happen that way that um the the universe made it clear to me that this was what I should be doing.
00:10:03
Speaker
um And I've been so grateful for it. I've met some of the most extraordinary people, people like Lori, for example, who are real true pioneers of the method and go out and do extraordinary things. And I am just always amazed by what this work can do you know and i'm just gonna say again i've said this and we've done these podcasts now i think we're on number 12 or 13 by the time we're hearing you guys but there's been this recurring theme that someone in your life told you
00:10:40
Speaker
you know what, you need to continue with this. You need to do this. We have these mentors in our lives that say, you're meant for this work. And it's so powerful because if we didn't have those people, we might not go on and do the things we do. But we have people that say to us,
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, you need to be part of this and do what you're doing. So I'm i'm happy to hear you say that. Anyway, moving on. How would you describe the Dow Crows approach to teaching?
00:11:15
Speaker
And especially in this 21st century where we're at, you know, we've, thank goodness, come out of COVID. So we're getting back to movement.
00:11:27
Speaker
base, you know, we can do that. It was such a hard time, but um what what would you say are some of the basic principles of the Dow Crow's approach to teaching?
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I think first and foremost, Dow Crow's education is an experiential way of teaching. It's an experience. You experience music um using all of your senses, well, and maybe not taste, but the relevant senses, right? And then you take that experience and turn that into a theory item later.
00:12:04
Speaker
So it's quite the opposite of somebody standing up and saying, oh, well, here's a quarter note. This gets one beat. Here's an eighth. go It gets half of that. Right. And then you're you're just kind of like your brain's trying to wrap itself around it. But this, um when you experience something first, then your brain isn't engaged in that same way of being like kind of stressed out about the terms, right? You're having a chance to feel what this is, describe it using natural language, move it using things that come natural to you um to to feel this music. um
00:12:37
Speaker
And then but theory comes after that. um i think another big part of it too is this movement is very purposeful, but it also has a playful nature.
00:12:48
Speaker
And we all know that children naturally learn through play. And I'm not sure that we ever grow old enough that we don't learn through play, playful movement.
00:13:00
Speaker
And I think that's the the magic, you know, as a teacher, when you know, this is the concept I want to get to, here's where want to um What happens? what How can we lead them to this space where they can really feel this concept And then later on when they feel it and they can describe it and they know what it is corporally and and through natural language, they're like, oh, that's a quarter note.
00:13:22
Speaker
Oh, that's an eighth note, right? And and then that that connection that they have to the abstracted to the theory is so much stronger because they they know And if they forget that term, well, they still know it, right? And you can remind them of the term later.
00:13:36
Speaker
So I think these are some of the the the powerful things. and then And then I think just the other thing for me, another, like there's lots of things, lots of principles. But another thing I think is the ownership that the students have, because when you have to move your body, you're not just sitting there singing as quietly as you can so nobody can hear it but you, right? You are moving in this space. And I think it creates a different sort of ownership.
00:14:00
Speaker
um Whole body movement does when you're doing it in a purposeful way and you're engaging the senses of listening, you know, actively listening to what's happening. Is there, is the piano changing? What is happening?
00:14:12
Speaker
um so I think those are some kind of some of the highlights for me of this, not that there's, There's lots of um principles and strategies and um that help you because it's not um you know this first and that first. It is very much a, here's a bunch of tools. There's a bunch of principles.
00:14:29
Speaker
And then you, as the leader of the class, the teacher, you get to decide how to put these things together to best serve your students, to best serve whoever is is in your classroom.
00:14:40
Speaker
I love it. Jeremy, what do you want Well, would 100% agree with Lori. um i think that the method itself is so much more than just about music.
00:14:53
Speaker
Music is the is the heart of it in many ways. Music is the motivator and the stimulator and the regulator in our classroom, in our learning environment. That's what we're aiming to do.
00:15:04
Speaker
But really, it is a philosophy as much as it is anything else, um as as much as it is a method. um maybe not in a traditional sense of method, but um that's what he would call it.
00:15:16
Speaker
But the the thing for me is that through this method, we learn so much about ourselves. We learn so much about our own personal expression of music and how that relates to what we think and feel.
00:15:33
Speaker
And to me, that is really important. It's not just about facts and figures, although we have to have that. We have to understand what the syntax is and the grammar is in the language of music, particularly in the common practice period of Western art music.
00:15:50
Speaker
This is important. And from there, we can branch out into all kinds of different things. But first and foremost, it starts with each individual student in the room.
00:16:01
Speaker
And they are, in my opinion, valued for their artistic expression right from the get-go and encouraged to find that. And I think that's probably one of the the principles that really has drawn me to this work is that with music as the center, um coupled with purposeful movement, it it gives all of us new ways of knowing.
00:16:28
Speaker
And it gives us a type, Laurie mentioned ownership. um And I also, i feel like commitment. I can't tell you how many college students I've worked with who can do two against three because they they can do this.
00:16:44
Speaker
But then as soon as they step it into the space, it's a train wreck. And that's because they know it in a very specific way. But when they learn it in this type of a way with so many different dimensions of approach, those that are visual, those that are aural, those that are verbal, those that are tactile, it stimulates so many different ways of learning.
00:17:10
Speaker
and um And I think that's just really astounding. I think the other part that is very powerful to me is the way in which Delcrosians adapt.
00:17:22
Speaker
Adaptation is a huge part of what we do, not just because we're expecting the students to adapt to us, but also because we're adapting to them.
00:17:33
Speaker
you know, it's a real dialogue between the teacher and the student and also the students amongst themselves. And so that type of learning dynamic is is pretty incredible and it's hard to come by, i have to say.
00:17:50
Speaker
So and those are really important parts to me. I think other parts that I think are really critical that go with the adaptation part is the fact that it's very social. And that's not just to say that we have you know tea and crumpets after class. it's It's that while we're in class, we are interacting and learning from one another.
00:18:09
Speaker
um I'll never forget i had in my training, I had an experience moving with someone that, um you know, she was about 15 or maybe 20 years older than I was at the time.
00:18:22
Speaker
And um we were came from very different walks of life. But I will never experience forget the experience of moving phrases together. Something so simple.
00:18:34
Speaker
But there was a connection, a human connection made. that was so important. And I learned from her in that day,
00:18:46
Speaker
and And I've never forgotten it. And when you talk about 21st century education and what does Delcos have to do with 21st century education? And I think this is probably one of the more important aspects.
00:19:00
Speaker
We are living in a digital age where these things are killing us in so many ways. Not literally, but there as a fabric of society, it's um the phone to me is an issue.
00:19:13
Speaker
it doesn't It doesn't provide um connection in the way that I think we need as humans. Delcro's education gives that. It provides that.
00:19:25
Speaker
so I a thousand percent agree with you because it's when, you know what, it's when they come to their specials classes at school, that's when they need the personal connections.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah. Because they're not, and this is nothing against classrooms because they have lots to do and they have a lot things to, you know, get done. But they're not getting that personal connection.
00:19:53
Speaker
And it's like, there's nothing better than a folk dance or a movement activity or getting with a partner like you were saying to her. You know, I mean, doing those types of activities that it brings that human connection. Okay, here's another question.
00:20:12
Speaker
So Dalcroze is, I mean, for the most part, movement-based. So let's start there. what What are the benefits of movement in music education? What would you say?
00:20:28
Speaker
I am not a scientist by trade, so I'm not going to pretend to be one. I'm not going to pretend to say I know all of this research. Although we do have um many of our um faculty and graduates now, I'm very excited, are pursuing research.
00:20:44
Speaker
Just at the Delcro School of Music and Movement alone, I think we have four people that are pursuing graduate work right now and are actively looking into creating research projects that help to deepen our understanding of this work.
00:20:57
Speaker
in a very um i sort of objective, peer-reviewed sort of way. Having said that, I can speak from my own experience, and that's to me what is what matters more than not anything else, but I think it it really does matter a lot.
00:21:16
Speaker
um And that is movement offers a nonverbal way of understanding a nonverbal art. So often when people talk about mood about music, they use movement vocabulary.
00:21:31
Speaker
they They talk about the flow or the drive or the um the undulating qualities or the aggressive qualities, et cetera. They're qualitative, they're movement driven.
00:21:45
Speaker
they Those kinds of things are very difficult to describe in words, but we know it when we feel it.
00:21:56
Speaker
And I think that that type of purposeful movement approach really really offers ah deeper dimension of understanding when it comes to music.
00:22:10
Speaker
We can talk about for... ah yeah many days about the theoretical aspects of what makes for a ah movement learning environment and and how does that function inside the brain.
00:22:27
Speaker
But what really matters to me is what happens when students exit and they they sense inside of themselves because that sensation, that feeling, that awareness is what is going to take their performance to the next level.
00:22:47
Speaker
It's what's going to take their desire to communicate to a new dimension. And, um and I think that's very powerful. So that's to me, the value of, um or one of the values of, of a movement education.
00:23:03
Speaker
that's that's you know That's an awesome way to put it. And and i think that um I think that when you're moving, there's so many, like we talked about, Jeremy talked about the social aspects and you know be earlier.
00:23:15
Speaker
And I think that that's a big part of when you're moving in the classroom, right? You've got a bunch kids in the same space. Sometimes they're moving fast. Sometimes they're moving slow. Sometimes they're moving you know asymmetrically or or however they're moving. And that social aspect of doing that physical movement the The dance that we won't call a dance because, you know, but it but it is the dance of movement in that classroom. and it and And that applies to so much in life, right? How are you moving through life physically in in your classroom, and you're in your work, in your job later on, you know, all those things.
00:23:49
Speaker
um But, you know, feeling there's a person here, seeing there's a person there, but I need to do my thing. Picking your path. I mean, all these things, I think it's informing people.
00:24:01
Speaker
um You know, even for adults, I think that's great, you know, but for the for the kids, I think, too, it's just some of that that kinesthetic learning and in in they can mostly do it. And every so often you maybe have to have a conversation. Right. But but they just know how to do that. But it's strengthening their skills in their awareness around them, too, in a social setting and even.
00:24:22
Speaker
physical objects, don't don't run into the piano, right? I mean, that kind of thing. But um but it but I think that that that that movement in that social setting um really adds to the depth of the experience that they're getting. and And, you know, aside from that movement, like all the things that Jeremy said, which, you know, are um And also I mean, I guess also there's also your balance and your coordination, right? this is ah This is a big thing for kids and for adults. mean, sometimes, right? Because you go into a Dow Crows class and you're like, wow, I haven't skipped in a while.
00:24:55
Speaker
You know, I haven't done this thing. you know, how often do adults go around leaping? i mean, it's not- And, you know, as an adult, do you skip with your kids?
00:25:06
Speaker
Do you? You know, you don't know. do, but now yeah, before- I do too, but- and i And I think it's so important what you're both saying that not only just the movement of the body, but it's the interaction two with other students. We're, you know, we're so lacking in that right now.
00:25:29
Speaker
And just the interaction, just how to socially interact. And this teaches that. Yeah. as we're doing it in our classrooms. So this, cause this stuff is the, it's kind of the meat and potatoes of why we do it. And, and one of the things that will, I think that will come out in our conversation today is that this method is so multifaceted. It is not just this, it's not just one way of knowing it really is championing many ways of knowing through the body.
00:26:01
Speaker
But one of the parts that makes this very valuable to me, and I think to students, is that music is not something we can actually touch. We can't put our finger on it.
00:26:12
Speaker
It is something that exists within us. Even i can look at a piece of paper, of of sheet music, and I can hear the music inside of me. I don't have to even have and the music playing.
00:26:27
Speaker
That is how um deeply a part of the human experience music is. But when we move and we represent music through physical gesture and gross locomotor movement and fine locomotor movement, we make music less arbitrary. We make it less...
00:26:48
Speaker
um
00:26:50
Speaker
I don't know, so amorphous, it becomes very tangible. It becomes physical. It's something we can we can see. I can touch the music through my um the interactions that I have with a partner, for example.
00:27:04
Speaker
I can feel music within me when I'm working with a ball, for example. And all of that leads to this very deep sense of um internalization.
00:27:16
Speaker
that Delcroze used to talk about internal hearing. and um And I think that that's ultimately what we're after. But the movement is such a powerful gateway in that respect.
00:27:31
Speaker
Well, and and going on from what you just said, can I ask this next question? as far as Delcroze's approach, you not only teach movement, but other concepts like rhythm, solfege.
00:27:47
Speaker
Can you talk about a little bit how that pulls into the whole approach? and teaching. I'm so, I'm excited to learn about this because I'm not Delkros trained.
00:27:58
Speaker
So, yeah. So I think that there, think the the challenge and the thing that I would like to say I think there's, there's not a musical concept that you can't teach through Delkros. I would say that there's a, there's a way to probably find a way to communicate that through the body, almost anything, whether it's a solfege concept and like kind of what Jeremy was saying is making this ethereal thing of like a whole step and a half step, like what, right? You know, ah of course, like we can hear that in auditory, but but making that kind of thing physical, you know, the the scale, you know, even even that, like a major or minor scale, and how does that feel different as you move through space?
00:28:37
Speaker
um And of course, rhythm, I think there's a lot of, you know, rhythm things that are often associated with, with dowel crows, right? There's, I mean, doing all the poly rhythms and all these beautiful, lovely, challenging things that that we can do, but also even the basic rhythms and um developing, I think with a lot of these things, the automatization that kind of um happens with within you. Like when you're all of a sudden, you know, like, I don't, you don't think about tying your shoes, you just tie your shoes. You know, you, you, when you, you don't think about how that quarter note is going to feel against these other you know notes or rhythms or how the you know they those are going to feel.
00:29:14
Speaker
And so that becomes kind of ah just an automatic thing in your body that happens. And so I think that that happens with a lot of these these concepts um as well. and um And I think hopefully that kind of answered what what you were some of what you were asking, but I'm sure Jeremy has a lot to add to that one.
00:29:34
Speaker
Sure. Well, you know, one thing that's interesting, Laurie touched on this, is that people think of Delcro's and they think of Eurythmics. And that's great, although that's not really um the only thing.
00:29:48
Speaker
We have Eurythmics is one of three core branches. There's Eurythmics, there's Solfege, and there's Improvisation. So those three are our main core subjects.
00:30:00
Speaker
Oftentimes what we learn in Eurythmics coupled with what we learn in Solfege then comes together and is synthesized through improvisation. And in addition to that, we also have pedagogy and methodology and then something called Plastique Anime.
00:30:14
Speaker
Those are our two applied branches. So we have Plastique and Pedagogy that are these applied branches and then our core branches of Eurythmics, Solfege and Improv.
00:30:26
Speaker
Eurythmics, lots of people know from from what the music man, One Grecian Urn, to what they might have learned in some sort of a ah a college experience, perhaps, or from um any other musical training that they might have had.
00:30:45
Speaker
That's what a lot of people know. And so when oftentimes people ask me to come in and do a gig. um that's what they want me to work on rhythm, meter, form, structure, musical elements of that nature.
00:30:55
Speaker
But then there's this whole other aspect of the training that I think is absolutely fascinating. And when all of those things work together, great things happen.
00:31:07
Speaker
um And I think that's something else that makes this, see this work really unique is that it is inherent in the method itself to make connections between all of the different branches. And so people will have these aha moments while they're in solfege. And remember two years prior when they were in a eurythmics class where something like x Y, or Z happened. And then Three years later, they'll be in an improv situation and realize what they were struggling with over here in Eurythmics was worked out through solfege. And now they can finally do it at the piano, let's say, or their instrument, whatever their instrument may be.
00:31:47
Speaker
So um all of the method really is Interrelated. It's really not compartmentalized, even though we have to for clarity and for conversation to talk about it. But truly, that's it.
00:32:05
Speaker
When I am teacher training, one of the things that's so important to me is to stress to students that when we are in a Delcroze environment, we are focusing on purposeful movement in virtually everything we do. that's That is the the starting point.
00:32:22
Speaker
But in order to really make it function, we have to connect that movement to what we hear and then possibly to what we um see and then connect that to what we feel and then connect that to maybe what we play.
00:32:42
Speaker
And any one of those connections, those pathways can happen at any moment. Sometimes the movement directly relates to um what I play. And sometimes what I see affects how I move.
00:32:57
Speaker
Sometimes what I see from other people in the hall affects how I play or how I move. It's just so dynamic. And while that is intimidating for sure and daunting, um it's also the most exhilarating feeling when it's all working and you can see people doing extraordinary things and growing in that way. Yeah.
00:33:22
Speaker
Because here's the deal, having good rhythm is important. It's really important, but i'll I don't know if I've ever been to a symphony concert where everything was played exactly in time with one metronome setting from the beginning of the piece to the end.
00:33:38
Speaker
Music breathes, it lives through everything. humans who are living. And I think that um there's all sorts of room for flexibility.
00:33:49
Speaker
And that is something that happens when you have this dynamic um sort of five part approach to a method, because you're not just teaching this one isolated thing, you're teaching this thing in relationship to all of these other things.
00:34:07
Speaker
um which I think is really important in a world that we live in now to realize that we are the world is much bigger than all of us. And Del Cruz would talk about this when he was working with the students, not just for children, but for the people that it the method was created for originally, professional musicians, was to give them this deeper sense of aesthetic meaning And that comes from deep aesthetic meaning comes from exchange, from play, from experimentation, exploration, all of that.
00:34:41
Speaker
And the method kind of puts all of that together. That makes sense. Can you talk a little bit about how the, how the Dow Crows movement works? grew and expanded a little bit, just a little bit of the history? Because I don't know that everybody always knows that.
00:34:57
Speaker
There are lots of great places that you can look to to find more. One of the best scholars in North America on Delcrest education is a comes from a woman um in Canada. Her name is Selma Odom.
00:35:10
Speaker
And she is a dance historian and a Delcros expert, um particularly in regards to the history and development of the method. So I would strongly recommend um seeking out anything written by Selma.
00:35:24
Speaker
um The other person who I really would strongly recommend if you wanted to find more is is a woman named Monica Dale, who is a colleague of mine. I can't say enough good things about Monica's work.
00:35:35
Speaker
um She's one of the most widely published Delcrosians alive today. um She's fabulous. And she has done a lot of research into the development of this method um from infancy till today.
00:35:51
Speaker
What I can tell you is this, is that Delcroze had no intention of coming up with a method. He really wanted his students to be more flexible, to be more expressive.
00:36:05
Speaker
And when I say students, like i he was a professor of harmony and solfege at the Conservatoire de Genève. So this is a location where Franz Liszt was, for example. And um so that he was in good company.
00:36:21
Speaker
Now, Delcros was born in 1865 and he died in 1950. So that's the the window of time. And what he noticed was this, that when he would go for walks with his students and typical Swiss style, the students had to be next to or in slightly behind their professor, that you couldn't walk as equals.
00:36:43
Speaker
You had to walk just behind. And he would walk through the parks in Geneva with his students. And he was kind of a jokester. He liked to play. And he would make sharp turns. And so to not be rude to his their professor, um they would have to run ah catch up with him. i mean, he would make these very fast, abrupt turns. And, you know, he just thought it was silly. um But he what he noticed was yeah um They never really missed a beat.
00:37:15
Speaker
They were always able to stay right with him in these moments when he was playing. But those very same students, he could take them in to a a rehearsal and conduct them through a Chopin etude, and they could not modify their tempo and stretch time and push time the way you do with Roboto, the way that they could push and pull time when they were going for a walk.
00:37:42
Speaker
And so then he thought, I wonder if there's something that we could work on here. And so that's where it started. That's how it kind of began. And I'm sure there are other lore legends. um that's the That's the legend as it was told to me.
00:37:58
Speaker
um After that, it it really started to develop within the Conservatoire de Genève. And then eventually he wanted to do other things. And so he established a garden community in Hellerau, Germany.
00:38:14
Speaker
And People came from all over the world to study with him and to see what was going on. Adolph Appiah, who is largely responsible for what we now know as modern lighting for all theater and stage production, was there.
00:38:28
Speaker
People like Diaghilev from the Ballet Russe would come and to see what was happening. And of course, this had profound impacts on major composers of the time, like Stravinsky and Blach and others.
00:38:43
Speaker
So it's it's really, it was quite interesting at that time. People came from England as well. um They came from off the continent.
00:38:53
Speaker
And that was the first major country where Delkros was developed, I would say, outside of um the the continent of Europe. So Switzerland and then Germany,
00:39:06
Speaker
and then um in England. And it is there that we have this this issue with the term Eurythmics, because Delcroze did not call this method Eurythmics. He called it Le Chrhythmique Jacques Delcroze.
00:39:21
Speaker
So Le Chrhythmique Jacques Delcroze, that is the method Jacques Delcroze. And, but when he got to Switzerland or England, they needed something that, that the, um, the British folks could say.
00:39:32
Speaker
And so they came up with this idea of Eurythmics. You're standing for good, um, and Rhythmos rhythm. rhythm So Eurythmics. And at that time, that was the name of the the method was Eurythmics.
00:39:45
Speaker
And then they had these branches, rhythmic, selfish, and improv. When it came to the United States in the first part of the 20th century, we're talking in the aughts of the 1900s, it came over as Eurythmics, but what they offered was the Rhythmics class.
00:40:01
Speaker
And so in the United States, we have come to call this method Eurythmics, but it's also a branch of the method. And that's one of the reasons why too, to that lot of Delcrosians will use the term Delcros education to describe what it is.
00:40:17
Speaker
Okay, so just to clarify, it the yeah this is not black and white, but you would call this a method. I would say this. I'm a big person that likes to go and go back to the source.
00:40:30
Speaker
So what did Jacques Delcrosse say? What was his MO? And all throughout his books, he calls it a method.
00:40:42
Speaker
But it is not a method. like we think of it in a 21st century context. yeah And to this extent, I feel like it's a little bit of semantics, although I understand that there's a nuance here, but there are times when it's a method. There's times when it's a philosophy. There's a time when it's a psychology. There are times when Delcroze is a performance art.
00:41:07
Speaker
it's it It doesn't exist in one dimension. And so I have no problem if somebody calls it a method. I also have no problem if somebody calls Delcro as an approach. um I tend to say, if I'm going to say that it's a method, I will say it in French.
00:41:22
Speaker
le method ja delro That's what I would say, because I don't want to confuse people into thinking it's a method like this is not how you play tiddlywinks this is not a method of making bread. Step by step, you must do this and then this and then this and then this.
00:41:37
Speaker
Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, I'm, no, I'm totally with you because I feel it's the same with any of these, you know, is this called a Kodai approach?
00:41:49
Speaker
Right. Kodai method. It's like, well, we can get stuck in semantics, but so what are we really doing? You know, and you've explained very well, like what is Dalcroze doing?
00:42:01
Speaker
So let's talk a little bit about Dalcroze.
00:42:08
Speaker
teacher training, The DelCros Society of America DelCrosUSA.org, there um is a lot of information on where you can go um get training.
00:42:19
Speaker
of the most important things is that if you want DelCros training, is it to make sure that your training center is led by somebody who has the degree that Jeremy has, um the Diploma Superior. are And so we have all those um those schools listed on on our website.
00:42:38
Speaker
um And then I'm going to, and then there's other, there's a ah ah committee that has been around for 15 years, Jeremy, maybe the professional development committee.
00:42:49
Speaker
Is it maybe a little longer? 13 years. Okay. And so that's been around for a long time. And what they've done is they have created, it was just this enormous collaboration.
00:43:00
Speaker
this body of work, um all these people who held the terminal degree and some people who had been long times teaching and they got together and created um the teacher training manual, the T squared program.
00:43:12
Speaker
So that is something that is maintained. And if you wanna be part of the T squared program, the Delco Society of America will accredit you with that program. um And then it's just a, it's a, it's a set of guidelines. It's not a prescription per se, but it's a set of um um guidelines that kind of um outlines levels and stuff. And Jeremy will say that.
00:43:33
Speaker
And I want to say the one thing that's different about DelCros compared to like ORF is that ORF, your training happens through the AOSA, right? um But here DelCros, you will go to a training center. We don't um deliver training. We have lots of resources on our website, but we don't deliver training itself. You need to go to a training center that's led by someone has a Diplomous QER.
00:43:58
Speaker
The one thing I want to say about the teacher training in the US is that when the method started, it developed a lot of pockets. Pittsburgh was a pocket.
00:44:10
Speaker
New York was a pocket. Boston was a pocket. um Cleveland was a pocket. Madison, Wisconsin was a pocket. ah Bethlehem, Pennsylvania became a pocket.
00:44:24
Speaker
So there were all of these different training centers. And before the internet, people really kind of developed their own ideas and their own ways of doing this work. And in 2012, we decided to come together to create standards.
00:44:38
Speaker
And so it's very exciting because in the 100 plus years that the method had been in the United States, we had never been we were never able to do that. um It just, each individual school was really kind of an island into itself.
00:44:54
Speaker
And we were just not in a position until that moment to be able to um really gain consensus. um And so it's really thrilling to look at that situation that we have now um to say, yeah, now we do have standards.
00:45:10
Speaker
And to be honest, we got a lot of inspiration from the AOSA and from the Kodai Association because we felt that we needed to do something that was um recognizable to others. And so we looked at structures that different organizations had to create our own.
00:45:30
Speaker
But at the same time, it was important for us to have individual expression and autonomy. um Delker's teacher training is not ever offered to an institution.
00:45:42
Speaker
So an institution is never authorized to offer a credential. a diploma is ah is granted the authority or the responsibility of offering a credential.
00:45:54
Speaker
So that's a subtle nuance, but it's an important one to note because it's part of the reason why in the United States, if you study at different schools, they they will have very different fields to them. They have different structures in place, but accreditation is gigantic because schools that are um a part of the accreditation We all say that we believe that these basic um base level skills and each subject area, we are all going to ensure that our students have those skills.
00:46:31
Speaker
And so that way, i it doesn't matter if I'm looking to hire somebody out of Boston or out of um New York, wherever, if they are accredited, I can say with authority, with conviction, um with confidence, that that person understands these things because they've been through the program and they have passed all of their evaluations.
00:46:56
Speaker
And all of the evaluations adhere to particular procedure, etc. So that way, it's fair and equitable. And, um and even if it's challenging, it is something that um will be ultimately of value, you know,
00:47:16
Speaker
So that's the that's a little bit of that history. But now that we have the T squared program, what I can tell you is that the programs that are a part of that, um which are include my school and the Delcros Institute of New England, which is coupled with the Winchester School in Boston and the Lucy Moses School, which is out of New York.
00:47:39
Speaker
and the Colburn School, which is in California, those programs all are accredited and they will have three levels, just like ORF. Level one is the introductory credential,
00:47:51
Speaker
The level two is the applied credential and level three is the um the professional certificate. So once you achieve level three and you've passed evaluations in Solfus, Improv and Eurythmics and your teaching practicum, then you are authorized to call yourself a Delcroze teacher and to offer Delcroze coursework.
00:48:18
Speaker
So it's an important sort of rite of passage to get to that certificate level for us, because that means that you can actually teach um the method to musicians of all ages up through an early intermediate level.
00:48:33
Speaker
Once you are finished with the certificate and you have that in hand, then you can move towards the license. And the DelGroats license, it has only two levels, levels four and level five.
00:48:44
Speaker
um And when you finish with that, then you are able to teach the method at um for all ages and at all levels, even assisting with teacher training.
00:48:58
Speaker
So the only thing that you can't do as a licentiate is actually run a program. That is not it. But you can absolutely be a part of it. um the The students that have graduated from my program or students that have graduated from the laundry school, for example, or even in other places.
00:49:17
Speaker
They have come and been on my faculty, for example, and we work well together. <unk> It's a great thing. If you want to become a teacher trainer, then you need to go to Switzerland.
00:49:27
Speaker
um The only place in the world where you can get a Diploma Superior is at the Institute of Jacket El Crows. And the real reason for that is because it's the only place on the planet that has the depth of programming.
00:49:42
Speaker
in For example, at the Delcro School of Music and Movement, we offer for all ages and levels, and we offer the full array of teacher training up through the license.
00:49:54
Speaker
But we don't have classes for senior citizens. And we don't have classes for children with special needs. That's not to say that they aren't in our classes, then they love them, but we don't offer any specialized classes for them.
00:50:07
Speaker
And I don't actually offer any classes for, let's say, infants and toddlers. It's just not my area. But other places might. Do you know what i mean? And at the Institute Jacques Del Croze, they do.
00:50:19
Speaker
And so that's why we go to study there, because that is where you can see all of it in one building. so um So that's kind of the big overview. If I want to break it down to make it even easier, I would say the certificate is our bachelor's, the um license is a master's, and the diploma superior is the doctorate, that makes sense.
00:50:41
Speaker
So Jeremy, if I was just to come to ah level one, um what am I going to see? You will start every day with a movement class. So that's a techniques of the body type class where you're learning movement vocabulary, learning new ways to explore the space and time and energy together.
00:51:02
Speaker
And then you have about an hour and a half of Eurythmics. And then you have about an hour and 10 minutes of pedagogy. And then you break for lunch.
00:51:14
Speaker
And then when you come back, we have an hour of solfege. an hour of improv. And then there will be so classes and in the this third hour in the afternoon that deal with either keyboard harmony or pedagogy demonstration classes.
00:51:32
Speaker
So they the the way that we do it at our school is we divide that up into two two communities. So first years and then second and third years, for example. And then on one day they have keyboard harmony, the next day they have Pedagogy Demo.
00:51:48
Speaker
And whoever is in keyboard harmony on this day, the other group has Pedagogy Demo. You see how it's just kind of alternating every other day. And then for the first week, there is Plastique Anime. That's always a real treat.
00:52:02
Speaker
to work on a piece of music to explore using the body, but in a community atmosphere. So for example, last year at the DSM, we did the um some music of Aaron Copeland. He was our theme.
00:52:19
Speaker
But in particular, we worked on vocal music, which To my knowledge, and it's for me as and as a Del Crozian, I had never done plastique to vocal art music.
00:52:31
Speaker
So it was so much fun to do that. We did um the 12 poems of Emily Dickinson, which was extraordinary to get to do that. And so that's what we did.
00:52:41
Speaker
And then the next week, it's basically the same thing, except for we have a little bit more time spent on improvisation each day. And we don't have plastic.
00:52:52
Speaker
So that's what it looks like um in from day to day. Just to clarify, a normal levels course, does that run, did you say one week or two weeks?
00:53:05
Speaker
it's It depends on the institution. um pay the DSM, we are a two-week program, a two-week summer intensive um and kind of ah And if you are at um New York at Lucy Moses, same thing.
00:53:21
Speaker
The laundry school is a three week program for their certification. And that is for level one. And so each each level requires essentially a summer and at ah at a program.
00:53:36
Speaker
Okay, you guys are sharing so much information. um Okay, let me ask this question. Um, yeah where do teachers learn more about Dow Crows?
00:53:49
Speaker
I mean, I looked at your website. So if you want to share that, um, and are there any benefits as far as becoming like a member to the, can you share a little bit about that too? I know there's, there's always stuff here. So.
00:54:06
Speaker
Yeah, so um definitely, DowCrowesUSA.org is a great place. If you become a member, then you have access to our library. And our library is growing and growing. we have a bunch of stuff that's going to be added to it probably in the next six to eight months as well.
00:54:25
Speaker
um And there's lots of um recorded classes. There are... um awesome plans. There's lots of, there's articles out there. There's things that will tell you more about the method itself.
00:54:38
Speaker
um And that's, there's the members side, but then we also have a blog, like um which I would highly encourage everyone to go check out our blog. Lots of just amazing stuff out there.
00:54:49
Speaker
um People have written articles. i mean, you'll see some by Jeremy, some by our other um diplomas who've written stuff and other people have on lesson plans and other experiences out there to kind of dip your toe, learn about it. Becoming a member and then you'll get, we have ah a beautiful magazine that gets produced twice a year. so a member have access to that as well. Lots of really great information in there.
00:55:13
Speaker
um And so then we always, I also want to mention that if you're in certain places, there will be a ah local chapter. So that would be if you're in those places, if you're in Denver, um Utah, Boston, New York. Who am missing?
00:55:31
Speaker
and California. California. california Ohio. that's the That's the one I'm missing. Yes. So my so Some lovely chapter experiences. um Most of us we're all putting on workshops um throughout the year at different times.
00:55:49
Speaker
um Consider maybe attending our conference. um And that's a great way to kind of just meet a bunch of teachers, have a bunch of experiences and things like that. Are there any like really good DALCOS resource materials that hey are your standards?
00:56:09
Speaker
Well, yes. um So the first thing I want to say, and this is probably controversial, but um it's just how I feel. Learning Delcros through a book is sort of like learning how to hug by reading about it.
00:56:24
Speaker
And so I think this is one of the hardest aspects of this work. I certainly remember when I first started, it was very tricky for me because i I wanted it to go faster than it did.
00:56:37
Speaker
But the truth of the matter is you cannot rush your development in this work. It's impossible. It doesn't matter how badly you want it. It's going to take the time it's going to take. um And so what I want to share about that is when I started, I'm a total book junkie, love books, love them, have so many that I cherish that I bought as much as I could and I was reading them and I just didn't understand what I was reading.
00:57:14
Speaker
didn't make sense to me. it didn't necessarily match what I understood was happening in the classes, but it was really because I just didn't understand enough about the method. And then I went back to those very same resources three years later after I got my certificate and I was like, oh my God, this is brilliant.
00:57:33
Speaker
This is so good. But I didn't know it at the time. i couldn't know it. Well, you have to, it's like ORF learning. you have to experience it first.
00:57:45
Speaker
You do. It's my opinion. You really do. Then you can go back and read and like, oh yeah, oh yeah, this makes all the sense now. But just to read it, like I didn't have any experience.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah. it's it It's such a huge part of what we do. And, you know, I've published now 10 volumes of books either on teacher training or methodology for children's programs.
00:58:11
Speaker
um And And yet, I mean, I i don't want to say this. the The teacher training books that I have are not, they don't read like how you expect a teacher training book necessarily to read because it's really giving you skills to learn how to create your own stuff.
00:58:33
Speaker
And that's really what Delperosians are aiming to do is to have their graduates go out into the world and create artistic experiences that resonate from their own selves, not somebody else's ideas, but but yours, even if I might use ideas that my but some some of my predecessors might have given me,
00:58:55
Speaker
As soon as I start teaching it, it's my own. Lori uses some of the curriculum that we have here at the DSM, but I guarantee you if you walk into Lori's classroom, it's going to look really different from what I'm doing.
00:59:10
Speaker
And the students are going to be equally engaged and loving it because it's Lori who's doing the teaching. And she's bringing all of herself into the experience.
00:59:22
Speaker
So I think um I'm happy to share with you um some resources. If you give me two seconds, I'm going go grab them and I'll show them so you can see them. Well, can I add to that too, that we have a series called the Dow Crows Lab.
00:59:35
Speaker
And these are things that you can sign up for and have an online experience too. that's That happens through the DSA. So sign up at least for our newsletter to get that information. Oh, cool. Okay. and I just brought a small collection. All right.
00:59:50
Speaker
yes All collection, and this is just methodology, kind of pedagogy stuff. Okay. So this is my Holy Grail.
01:00:01
Speaker
This is written by Heather Jell, and it's Music, Movement, and the Young Child. I've never seen that book. It is a beautiful book.
01:00:11
Speaker
It is a beautiful book. It's out of print. But you can you can find it and you could find older copies of it. And it's just great. There are also some newer versions of this um coupled with another volume that Heather Jell wrote.
01:00:27
Speaker
And um it's not the same, but it's very good. And you can find that it is produced by Delcroze Australia comes out of Australia because Heather Jell was an Australian.
01:00:40
Speaker
And then this person, this is Elsa Finley, and she wrote this book, Rhythm and Movement. Oh, yes. And I love this book. I really love this book. Between the two of them, i mean, both of them studied with Delkros himself.
01:00:55
Speaker
And they both did amazing things. Elsa Finley basically championed the Delcroze program at the Cleveland Institute of Music back in the day.
01:01:09
Speaker
And so she, um I don't know if she was the first person that she was brought in, but she was the person that really developed and established that program. So she was amazing.
01:01:20
Speaker
And what I love about this book is that it's it's very succinct. It has very clear ideas. The thing that's hard about it, what I'll just be honest, for both of them, is that there is a large assumption made on behalf of the authors that you are a Delcrosian and you understand how to create the music for these things.
01:01:39
Speaker
Monica Dale, who's a ah friend of mine, does amazing things. And she wrote these, Eurythmics for Young Children, Six Lessons for Winter. There's one for Fall and there's one for Spring. um I really like that either.
01:01:52
Speaker
she's um Her books are available in all sorts of places, but you can also just um write to her. Her website is called musickinesis.com.
01:02:04
Speaker
So you can check that out. She actually has um lots of song literature inside, and she even has um some examples of improvisation that are written out.
01:02:15
Speaker
Just short little snippets to kind of stimulate your ideas. okay And then last one, this one by a colleague of mine um out of Switzerland, although she is, um I believe, Australian. Her name is Mary Bryce.
01:02:30
Speaker
And she wrote this book called The Unfolding Human Potential. And this is an extraordinary book. So if you can find a copy of this... Love it.
01:02:42
Speaker
You are both delightful and I i love you both. I'm so glad to get to know you and more about the Dow Crows world. However, we always end our podcast with a lightning round of fun music questions.
01:02:58
Speaker
And I know you have no idea what I'm going to ask you. So there are no wrong answers. You just say what you feel. What is your favorite time signature to move to?
01:03:09
Speaker
well
01:03:11
Speaker
ah lee Currently, currently, think I'm a little obsessed with seven.
01:03:17
Speaker
Seven, eight. didn't expect that answer. Oh, that's a good answer. I love that answer, but I didn't expect It's got so much. I mean, there's so many things and so many ways it can do you like it?
01:03:28
Speaker
How do you like it? Like two, two, three, three, two, two. Does it matter? Yes. I mean, all those are good answers. And I think that's why it's so... um I think that's why it's so fun. i know that's, you know, i love so mean, they're they're all fun, but I think that that that one is even more, it's even more fun than five. Right. I just, I don't know. That's just, like it is more, it is more fun than five.
01:03:51
Speaker
but my My answer might change. I don't know. In a few years. i'm Right now. Jeremy, what's yours? I'm a compound triple kind of guy.
01:04:02
Speaker
I love anything in compound triple. 9, 8, 9, 4, 9, 16. Give me nine. My gosh, you guys are so, you're so advanced. I love it.
01:04:15
Speaker
Okay. Those are all good answers. All right. Here's your next one. Which would you prefer in your classroom? A skip or a gallop? Do I have to choose? yeah
01:04:29
Speaker
um Let's see. I think it's slightly less exhausting than the Gallup, but I think they're both really great, like physically exhausting. But I think they're I mean, they both have their time and place.
01:04:45
Speaker
um And I would be hard pressed to really choose. Jeremy. Oh, I'm a Gallup-er. I need to gallop. I find the gallop slightly easier than the skip.
01:04:57
Speaker
The skip, to me, teaching to kids is always the most challenging one. I don't know how your... Sure. Well, developmentally, it's very difficult. The gallop, they pick up on, and then it's always that dang skip. And I'm like, okay, how do I do this another way? Because we got to get the skip.
01:05:17
Speaker
Favorite musical. Oh, that's easy. A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder. I knew you were going to say that. Where did you see that?
01:05:28
Speaker
I've seen it a lot of places. It won a Tony. It won a Tony. saw it on Broadway. Yes, we saw it on Broadway. We saw it in Colorado when we lived there. And we've seen it here in Dallas, actually.
01:05:40
Speaker
Okay, Lori, what's yours? Um, this one's kind of a tricky one for me. i don't know. i might, if I could go with like a movie, like Sound of Music, can I, can I go with that?
01:05:51
Speaker
Of course. Well, that's a musical. For me, it's Well, i love, I love that show. I've never seen that, you know, anywhere but urban on this, you know, TV screen. Love that show. Okay, here's your last one.
01:06:04
Speaker
This is kind of personal. Something in your life that a favorite musical memory.
01:06:14
Speaker
Oh, I think that's easy for me. um i think it was when I remember back, my dad plays a piano and I remember just standing next to him and singing the songs that he was playing.
01:06:26
Speaker
To me, that will always hold a ah special place for me. Oh, that's a great memory. I think this is my favorite part of the podcast is I get to hear these things and I never know what people are going to share. And then it's like, oh my gosh, that's a great memory.
01:06:45
Speaker
Okay, Jeremy. You know, i feel like it's tricky because like there's those things that you're talking about, Laurie, like like my mom was my first piano teacher. And so that's something that I really cherish that um even though I was a terrible student, awful student, I lasted six months with her and then she had to kick me out.
01:07:05
Speaker
She gave up. And then she's like, yeah, no, you're, this is not, is not good. Yeah. Yeah. There's just so many. i can, I will share this one. This is kind of a funny one.
01:07:20
Speaker
um It's not nearly as ah sentimental in a good way, like Lori's is, which i that's really touching. um But I remember the first time i had an experience performing where I felt like I was,
01:07:40
Speaker
in the moment, performing and inclusively aware of what was going on around me. And that had never happened to me before. I was never in a place where I could do that. I was always just focused on my playing. I could not take in anything else.
01:07:57
Speaker
And I remember... I was playing Rachmaninoff, like was yesterday. I remember exactly the piece and what I was doing. and um And I had this weird moment where like I felt like there were almost two parts of me, that there was the part that was performing and was very much so in this very flow state.
01:08:16
Speaker
And there was this other part of me that was just sort of observing what was going on. And I remember that performance. It was one of the most... um I don't know remarkable ones that I had ever had in my undergraduate life.
01:08:31
Speaker
And it made a huge impression on me because I had never had that experience. So um that was a ah pretty strong memory for me. Well, you two are both amazing people. I'm i'm so glad to meet you. And i just want to thank Jeremy and Lori for joining us.
01:08:52
Speaker
And I want to thank everyone for listening. because this has been the Play Now Play for Life podcast with Aaron. And if you enjoyed our episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a rating and a review.
01:09:05
Speaker
And you can find us at westmusic.com slash playnowplayforlife. We're also on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X. And you can find those links in the description. Play Now Play for Life is a podcast by West Music.