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Becoming An Active Ally with Chikere Igbokwe
14 Plays1 year ago
Join us for a thought-provoking episode of "The 3D Podcast", where we welcome Chikere Igbokwe, Founder of INCLUCIVE and Allyship. In this episode, you will discover the key insights and valuable lessons on what it takes to be an Active Ally in today's society. We delve into the complexities of Allyship and explore the ups and downs of this crucial topic. Expect to gain a deeper understanding of what leaders need to do to effectively navigate Allyship within their organization as well. Get ready to be inspired and jot down some invaluable takeaways as we embark on a journey to 'Discuss the Dimensions of Diversity' with Chikere.
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Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
you
Introduction to the 3D Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, I'm Cedric Chambers, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the 3D Podcast, a masterclass where we share with you everything you need to know about how to transform diversity and inclusion in your organization as well as in your community. We're on a mission to amplify the voices of leaders that are making an impact in the world today so that we can have a better tomorrow.
00:00:34
Speaker
Our goal every episode is to keep it simple, honest, and transparent with you by uncovering the truths in diversity and inclusion with the hope of creating behavioral change all while presenting it from a unique perspective. So look, if you're ready, get your notepad out, pour you a drink, and let's dive deep as we discuss the dimensions of diversity.
00:01:07
Speaker
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 3D Podcast where we speak to real practitioners that are making real change in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space.
Chicare Bocque's Mission and Consultancy
00:01:16
Speaker
Look, I am excited for our show today as we are speaking to Chicare Bocque. Chicare is an experienced executive recruiter and DINI leader. She was born in Southampton, England to a Trinidadian mother and a Nigerian father.
00:01:29
Speaker
She is based in London and is passionate about creating inclusive cultures and is on a mission to build a community of active allies. Chika Ray is the founder of Inclusive, a DE and I consultancy focused on awareness, education, and action, and she's the founder of Allyship, a community for allies to learn, connect, and fully understand their roles as active allies. Look, I'm excited for this discussion today. I hope you're excited. So without further ado, let's jump right into it.
00:01:58
Speaker
Tikara, how are you doing today? Really well, Cedric. How are you?
00:02:03
Speaker
Oh, I am doing great. I'm doing great. I am excited about the conversation today. And I'm excited to dive into allyship and really unpack this topic and really getting down to the nitting gritty of what it is, how it shows up. So, you know, I'm excited to have this discussion. I know our listeners are excited to listen to it. And just for everybody listening, look, take out your pen, your paper, your tablet, whatever it is, and take notes. Cause I'm sure that we're going to have some gyms being dropped, some jewels.
00:02:32
Speaker
here and I want to make sure that you do not miss it. You do not miss it. And so, you know, Chiquita, I like to, you know, always start, you know, when I have these shows, I always love to just start in a place to where we're just getting to understand just who you are, right, and really get some details about your background because I love just seeing how, you know, backgrounds kind of transform and progress during careers as well as
00:02:55
Speaker
how it informs the work that you do today. And so just to start off for our audience and to build this foundation, can you just share a little bit about your background and how you got into the DE&I space and a little bit about the work that you do at Inclusive and Allyship?
Influence of Upbringing on Inclusive Work
00:03:11
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I'm really excited to be here as well. So thank you so very much. And I like talking about myself because I think my background really does. It really does, I guess,
00:03:24
Speaker
tell people why I do this work and why this work is really important to me. So let's start at the beginning, shall we? So my name is Chikere Ibokwe, and I'm currently based in London, England. But I was born in Southampton, England, and it's on the south
00:03:44
Speaker
coast of the United Kingdom. And I guess in terms of my background, my mother is from the Caribbean, she's from Trinidad and Tobago. And my father is from West Africa, he's from Nigeria, hence my name. And in the, you know, where I grew up, where I was born, where I grew up, was quite a small city, much bigger now. But it wasn't very diverse. So for example,
00:04:13
Speaker
When I was at school, I was always the only one who looked like me, so the only black person. I guess that really did shape the work that I currently do today. I'm lucky, you know, I grew up in an amazing loving family.
00:04:32
Speaker
So in terms of my identity, knowing who I am, was very, very important, especially from my father's side. My father, as I mentioned, is from Nigeria. He's from the Igbo tribe. Great thing about my father, that in the 70s, I was born in the 70s, and in the 70s, there was a Beata war. So my father was quite an activist. And what he did named us all Nigerian names. So myself and my siblings, we have all got Nigerian names.
00:05:02
Speaker
And I think that really did blame the foundation of who we were. So I've never really had a problem with me, with my identity, with my race. It has always been something of great pride. And it's something that my mother as well instilled in us. I came to London to go to university and just loved it here. It's such a big, diverse city. It's full of everybody.
00:05:26
Speaker
You know, and I'll say to your listeners, if you have never been to London, please do come, come and visit. After university, I sort of like felling into recruitment, as you do, but really loved recruitment, really, really loved it. And as my career progressed, I started to recruit very, very senior HR professionals into a number of sectors.
00:05:47
Speaker
And I think for me, I remember working in the city of London. And as I mentioned before, London is so diverse. And at the time when I was recruited for HR professionals, you know, the profession was full of amazing women. However, when I would go on a client visit to see a chief people officer or an HR director, or even the founder of a fintech who was looking for their very, very first HR professional, very, very rarely would I see a woman in position of power and influence.
00:06:17
Speaker
I always wondered why that was. And very rarely would I see anyone who looked like me. Barely mind, as I mentioned to you, London is just so diverse. So I decided to make it my mission to use my platform and create change. So I began speaking about all things diversity, equity and inclusion. However, London, the world,
00:06:42
Speaker
a lot of the clients I worked with, you know, they just were not ready. They were more than happy to talk about gender, right? But if I had to launch into race or sexual orientation with anything else, it was like, the barriers went up and it was a case of no, we can't, you know, that's something we want to do. We can't discuss that. So it was always really,
Creation of the Allyship Community
00:07:01
Speaker
really difficult. But I always use my platform, you know, to actually talk about all things diversity, you know, so for example, I made sure and it's so funny, when I look on LinkedIn, I still have my groups, I've got
00:07:12
Speaker
And I worked really heavily in the technology space. I love technology. And I've still got my HR Women in Technology groups that I set up. So I think for me, it was something I always try to discuss. But as mentioned, the world wasn't ready. It was frustrating. I must admit, it was very, very frustrating. And sometimes it made me feel angry as well. But it was something I decided, I thought, do you know something, I've just got to keep pushing. That was really how, I guess, my diversity
00:07:42
Speaker
journey started you know it means an awful lot to me and I think you know for a lot of the clients and the candidates that I used to work with because I was so passionate about it they found it slightly easy as well to begin talking about it but I think real change didn't happen until 2020.
00:08:00
Speaker
this is good. Let me ask you a question. And so when you were growing up, so understanding your dad's Nigerian, your mom's Trenton Tobago, and also understanding that you were one of few, if any more, in your class growing up, what did your father and mother teach you or stealing you as you was growing up to just make you
00:08:23
Speaker
make sure that you're not feeling less thin or making sure that you know that you should be in these places that you're in, regardless of how many people look like you. Yeah, definitely. I think first and foremost is pride. Pride in the color of my skin. I think, as I mentioned to you, Cedric, I come from a very loving family. My mom, my dad always told us that they loved us.
00:08:50
Speaker
They always told us there's nothing wrong with the colour of your skin, there's nothing wrong with your features, you know.
00:08:55
Speaker
And I remember, you know, I've got one of those names that nobody can pronounce, even up to today, nobody pronounce it. When I walk into Starbucks, you know, you know when they ask you for your name? When I say, my name is Chico, what can you spell it? And it's so funny, and when you get your drink, my name really gets mulled. It's like, you know, Cherokee, Cherokee, it's all sorts of pronunciations. You know, but I think for me, my, especially my Nigerian father,
00:09:23
Speaker
he instilled the importance of identity. So in terms of our name, we had a naming ceremony, our names have got meaning. So there's always been that pride. And also, when someone's saying to you, we love you, there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with the texture of your hair. There's nothing wrong with the color of your skin. There's nothing wrong with your features.
00:09:48
Speaker
I think that really, really helped. So it's really strange, really. I've never had a problem with me or who I look, or what I look like. The world has always had a problem with me in terms of the way I look, if that makes sense. And I'm sure we would delve into that a bit more. But I think that what my parents instilled in myself and my siblings is that sense of identity, that sense of worth. And as I mentioned to you, I've got two teenage sons and it's something I do
00:10:18
Speaker
today I want them to know that as young amazing black young adults there's nothing wrong with them you know and they should go out there be great human beings and just own it you know so I guess I get that from my parents and I think it really is important.
00:10:36
Speaker
No, that's awesome. I mean, just to get the pride, right? You said pride in your skin and just being loved. I mean, that's something that is even today, right? It's rare, right? And it's something that we've got to continue to speak, right, into our community and speaking to individuals because as we travel, right, this world, right, we understand that it's not just the spaces that we live in, right? It's much more global. And as we, you know, I was surprised when I took one of my
00:11:05
Speaker
second or third trips out of the country to where I started to go to places in Southeast Asia or I started to go to some of these other countries to where I saw more and more people that look like me than I thought I would see. And it's like, oh man, the world is like to have that global context, right?
00:11:22
Speaker
And to know that you're perfect in who you are. There's nothing that you need to change is important as we go through this. And as we have this topic and this journey, I know it informs your work that you do. And just so the audience knows a little bit more.
00:11:42
Speaker
organization, inclusive and allyship, just, you know, give a brief kind of overview of just what you do in your work and your consultancy, so that people just get a base of that every day for Chicarec. Yeah, definitely. Because I wanted to work more and more in the diversity space, awareness and education is important. It's key to me.
00:12:04
Speaker
especially living in Europe, especially living in England, you know, that whole diversity conversation is something that we don't have. We're probably not as, as far ahead as you are in the States. You know, we, you know, you hear about, you know, people in England having that stiff upper lip.
00:12:21
Speaker
you know, we don't talk about race, we don't talk about diversity. And that was a space that I really wanted to get in. And I think that probably comes from the fact that I'm a mother. I'm a mother to two young black men who were, you know, growing up really, really quickly. And I think, you know, I could see them, you know, I remember saying to myself,
00:12:42
Speaker
they'll be entering the workforce in the next couple of years. And how is the workforce going to treat them? You know, are they going to get the same opportunities as their white peers? How can I, coming from that whole talent acquisition recruitment background, use my platform to create change? And I think that came in 2020, when obviously we were in the midst of the awful pandemic, and then we had George Floyd's murder,
00:13:11
Speaker
And I think the world really, really woke up. And at the time, I just started a new position at a recruitment consultancy. It wasn't really something I wanted to do, but it was almost a case of, okay, just do this role and then maybe your next step will be to, you know, go into work within diversity full time. However, you know, 2020 came and I really saw the opportunity to do something
00:13:41
Speaker
So I remember being at home, feeling really, really scared because I was one of those who was being listened to the news. And my husband saying to me, and my husband saying to me, Cheek-a-ray, that's enough. I was just listening to the news every half an hour and feeling scared and panicky. And then we had the awful murder of George Floyd. And I remember feeling
00:14:02
Speaker
broken, you know, however, it was almost a case of I had so many clients and candidates reach out to me, you know, and say, Chifo, what can we do? And I thought to myself, do you know something, rather than feeling really upset and broken, Chifo, now's the time for you to do something. So this is where allyship comes into it. I'll speak about inclusive in a minute. So I decided to create a safe community, a safe and brave community called the Allyship Community.
00:14:32
Speaker
and allyship communities, community for allies to come together in the safe space, have those really brave and bold discussions and more importantly to learn, okay?
00:14:44
Speaker
So off the back of that, I realised that as an ally, even myself, we were on that ongoing journey and we needed a bit more. So the Allyship Book Club came into the mould, so to speak. So I almost set that up a few weeks after I set up the Allyship community.
00:15:05
Speaker
And do you know something? We just started to come together, have conversations, read, ask questions. And then I just had lots of clients saying, Chico, can you do an allyship workshop? Can you do an anti-racism workshop? Can you facilitate a conversation? And then that was when Inclusive was born. So Inclusive is my DEI consultancy. And I think for me, it's all about awareness, education, and action. So I work with clients in Europe
00:15:35
Speaker
and also in America. And I do lots of workshops, I facilitate conversations, I do pulse surveys, I help them, you know, create inclusive cultures. So I love what I do, really love what I do, as I'm, you know, it's hard work, it's not easy. But for me, it's all about using my platform to create change. And
00:16:00
Speaker
I was speaking to somebody last year, you know, and I said, you know, we're just talking about the work that we do, because the person I'm speaking to works in the diversity space as well. And we were just saying that, you know, change may not come till after we're gone. But I think the key thing is that, you know, we are doing something. And I'm really on a mission to create communities allies, because at the end of the day, we need more allies. Allyship really is important.
00:16:27
Speaker
No, that's interesting. Like, you know, change may not come. That's always something, you know, I think about that as well, right? But, you know, the context that I put around that is that yes, the change may come after, right?
Understanding and Practicing Allyship
00:16:38
Speaker
There's so much work that needs to get done before that change is stuck in. It's really there, preparing, making sure that you've built the tribe and the communities that can really take this into the future. And I think that though, when we hear those comments, I'm like, well, if change happens at stage five, then we got a lot of stuff to do between stages one through four to make sure that when it happens.
00:17:04
Speaker
We're ready for it, right? And I think a lot of folks, especially in the US, you hear a lot around, we're just not ready. We're just not ready. And it's like...
00:17:13
Speaker
what are we doing, right? What's the education, and like you said, what's the action that we're taking to get ready, which is important, right, in this work that we're doing. And so, you know, as we're diving deeper in understanding inclusive and allyship, ally is something that, and allyship is something that you hear a lot of, right? Definitely in the US, you hear a lot of it, you know, possibly, first you probably hear it in the UK as well. But I think that there's still some grounding that needs to happen as far as,
00:17:40
Speaker
what it truly is. Can you define what is allyship and what does it really, really mean in the context of diversity, inclusion, one, but then also in the context of just life? Yeah, definitely. And when I think about the definition of an ally or the definition of allyship, it gets me thinking. And the reason being, there's just not one definition. So if I had to
00:18:09
Speaker
define what allyship is now, just very quickly. I'll say allyship is a lifelong journey of building relationships with people with marginalized identities based on trust and accountability, okay? But that's not enough, okay? Because allyship is not a single action. It's ongoing action in itself with an examination of self. So for example, if we had to really delve into what allyship is,
00:18:39
Speaker
Allyship is a number of things. So for example, allyship is understanding what privileges. What privilege do I have? What is privilege? How do I use my privilege to create change? And one thing I've noticed when I talk about privilege, especially in one of my allyship classes I do, oh my goodness, it makes people very, very uncomfortable.
00:19:02
Speaker
because nobody likes to talk about their privilege. But the key thing about being an ally is that you have to understand what privilege is and recognize what privilege you have, and then use your privilege to advocate for others, okay? And allyship is listening, just listening. This is my lived experience as a woman. This is my lived experience as a person of color. This is my lived experience as somebody who belongs to the LGBTQ plus community.
00:19:32
Speaker
and the list goes on. So it really is important that we just listen, right? It really is important as an ally. Yeah, as an ally, we listen. And another comment there is that the listening piece is just
00:19:48
Speaker
When you pair that, when you listen to someone live experiences, right? It is something that you have to, to a certain extent, remove what society has said about that group. Because there's one element of, this is what I hear from broader society, but then when somebody is really telling you, this is what I've gone through in life, and you have to take it and understand it, you know, like have it,
00:20:16
Speaker
come from a place of understanding, not to say, well, you shouldn't feel this way, it's to just say, I'm listening, I understand, you know, and really just consume the information so that you can use this in your education, right? And use it to be able to go figure out and find out more about why you're experiencing these things or why you had to go through these different events in your life. Just wanna make that comment.
00:20:43
Speaker
No, I think it's a very valid and very, very good comment. Because if you think about it, Cedric, you know, you can say, this is my experience as an African American man. And someone might say, Oh, well, that doesn't happen to me. Because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean to me, because it doesn't happen to them doesn't mean it doesn't happen to you. So it really is important that that person just listens. Right. And that really is an allyship action. We have got to learn to listen. So really important. Okay. And
00:21:12
Speaker
You know, I talk about education an awful lot. As an ally, it's up to us to self educate. Really important that we put in the work to educate ourselves because it is an opportunity to learn and grow. So allyship is all about self education, learning, unlearning, relearning, immersing yourself in content from groups which are not your own. It really is important that we put the work in.
00:21:38
Speaker
There's no point saying I'm an ally, but you're not doing anything to be an ally. This is why we talk about active allyship. So what are you doing to be an active ally? What are you doing? You know, that whole education piece really is important, really important. And I often get people say to me, Oh, okay, cheekbone. When, you know, when do we finish? And I say to them, allyship is a lifelong journey with no end.
00:22:03
Speaker
Okay. It's not about, oh, I want to get to Z. I want to get to Z. No, you're constantly learning. I'm learning. Making a mistake because we're humans, right? And of course we make mistakes, right? Of course you're going to make a mistake, right? You pick yourself up, dust yourself off and carry on. Think about it. Even though I'm completely immersed in this topic, of course I'm learning. I'm on that journey as well. I make mistakes. I make mistakes all the time.
00:22:32
Speaker
all the time all the time and I own it you know I really own I really own it so that whole lifelong journey really important it's important to know that you know allyship is a lifelong journey and also remember part of that lifelong journey is that you're staying engaged okay you're not often switching on
00:22:51
Speaker
This is the case of, you know, that journey involves you being staying engaged always. Allyship is staying engaged, right? You're constantly engaged. Really, really important. And remember, it's all about having those difficult conversations with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers. You know, you've got to have those difficult conversations. And what I normally say to organizations is this,
00:23:15
Speaker
It really is important to create that safe space within your organisation to have those difficult conversations. You know, the conversations we're not used to having, especially in Europe, we're not used to having certain conversations. We'll talk about gender all day long and rightly so. We'll never talk about race. Oh my gosh. How can we talk about race? Race is something we never talk about. People are so, so uncomfortable talking about race.
00:23:41
Speaker
you know we don't talk about lgbtq plus you know again people are really really uncomfortable so we've got to as an ally we've got to have those really really difficult conversations in order to create change because that's the whole idea right we want to um we want to drive change really really important um and another thing i always say to people that allyship is allyship is um you know not feeling afraid to make a mistake because as i just mentioned before you will make a mistake
00:24:10
Speaker
you know, so as you can see, you know, I think it's just an awful lot of things. I don't really have one definition for thought. You could probably add, you know, so many more to that list. Yep. You know,
00:24:26
Speaker
And let me, I know that it's a lot that goes into it. And I think that, and what I would love to get your insight on here is that we've talked about the element of educating yourself, right? There's this element of, of listening, right? But there are people who think they're allies, but aren't.
00:24:46
Speaker
allies. Right. And so as we think about the term active ally, right? What are the the specific behaviors when you think about in the workplace that really exemplifies a true active ally, right? You know, you know, I have a premise, right? As you get into this, that allyship is one of the you are you aren't right. And so it's one of those things like
00:25:13
Speaker
If I show up for you in one situation, but in nine other situations I don't, or I let stuff pass, the question is, am I really an ally? Because I let the influences of, let's say, my culture, because everyone is acting a certain way towards a marginalized group, if I let that influence the way that I act, then am I really an ally?
00:25:34
Speaker
what are those behaviors that you see in a workplace that really exemplifies someone who's an active ally? For those that are listening, look, write this down because as you're thinking about this, many people are saying, I'm an ally, I'm an ally, I'm an ally. But when the situation gets tough and you're put into a spot to where you have to stand up and you have to really show up for a particular group, the question is,
00:26:00
Speaker
did you do it or did you just kind of fall back and falter? And so what are some of those behaviors so that people can just understand like, okay, is this me or is this not me? And then what do I need to do to make sure I can be this person?
00:26:13
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So I talk about education a lot. It's a recurring theme. You know, when I when I do my workshop, I must say education, education about a billion times. Okay. So if you're showing up as an ally, if you're showing up as an active ally, because this is what we want to see, you're putting the work in, right? You're putting the work in. That's number one. If you're showing up as an active ally, you understand what microaggressions are.
00:26:41
Speaker
Because when you see something or when you hear something, you're going to say something. Yeah. So that's all right. And think about it. How many times have people who claim to be allies seen something or heard something that is not right, a microaggression, and have just not said anything? All the time. All the time. All the time. Exactly. So I don't know if you have this word in America. We have a word called banter.
00:27:12
Speaker
We don't use it a lot, but I know exactly what it is. You know what I mean? You know in the workplace, oh, let's have a laugh, just a bit of banter, ha, ha, ha. And everyone's laughing along to something that somebody said that is racist or misogynist, you know, and nobody's saying about it. So it really is important to speak up. We need active allies, if they see or hear something, to say something. We want them to challenge others.
00:27:38
Speaker
Okay, we want them to bring diversity to the table. We want them to build a community of allies because think about it, allyship is pretty lonely, right? We need more allies, allies need allies, okay?
00:27:52
Speaker
And we need people to pledge their support and not feel afraid. And that's the problem. And not pick and choose. Not say, oh, I just want to, you know, oh, let's just focus on gender. We'll focus on race or sexual orientation at another point. We want people who are not afraid. And the only way, right, the only way you can do that is if you put the work in
00:28:16
Speaker
and if you educate yourself. And I know I'm going to sound like a scratch record, but that's the key thing. You have to put the work in, right? Because there's still a lot that people just don't know. People don't know, especially if you're from the majority group, you know, you haven't had to think about a lot of things. And now the world has changed, you know. And, you know, you will find that it's not good enough to say I'm an ally.
00:28:46
Speaker
you've got to be an active ally, right? So you've got to start putting that work in. No, this is real good. I got like a lot of questions in my head that I'm trying to work through to figure it out, to dive deeper here, right? Because allyship is twofold in the context in which we're speaking, right? There is the individual piece, right, to where
00:29:07
Speaker
you need to educate yourself, right? You need to be able to, you know, not rely on another institution, your work or however it may be to provide all the information around how to be an ally, but actually go out and start to learn and start to ask questions and start to have conversations. But in the context of an organization, right, for leaders that are listening to this call and they're looking to themselves and saying, hey, I think our company and our culture lacks this relationship element, right? One,
00:29:37
Speaker
You know we talked about banter and folks you know.
00:29:40
Speaker
laughing at jokes that could be racist. So I'll ask this in two folds. One is, what are some of the things you've seen that folks can kind of look out for in their companies that kind of show that they have this lack of a culture of allyship? And then two, what can companies do, knowing that there's an individual component, but what can companies really do if somebody is listening to this call and saying, hey, this quarter, I really want to help move the culture forward in this space.
00:30:09
Speaker
What can they do to begin to create change within their organization? Yeah, definitely. So, you know, I guess let me put my recruitment hat on when I asked this question and I'll say look at your organization first and foremost. If I had to look at your senior leadership, do I see diversity in there? And I remember when I used to recruit in the city of London, recruit for a lot of these very, very global organizations. And I would walk in, you know, little,
00:30:35
Speaker
you know, me, you know, walk into these organizations, you know, be met by the receptionist who was always female, okay. More than likely, a person of color, sometimes, right, I would go in, wait at reception, and you know how you look at people, you see people, the staff coming in and out. Yep. And you probably see, you know, lots of men, a few women,
00:31:02
Speaker
you very rarely, and especially I remember, very rarely seeing people of colour, you know, and then you go in to see the person you were, you know, meant to see. And more than likely, that person will not look like me or you. Okay, so the first thing first is, let's look at the senior leadership. Let's look at your people. What do your people look like? Okay. Do you have senior managers, you know, who are not like the majority group?
00:31:31
Speaker
That number one is so important. One thing I've noticed is that the next generation, because I've been speaking to quite a few of them, do not really tend to do, they tend to look at websites to see,
Organizational Role in Promoting Allyship
00:31:43
Speaker
okay? They want to see, you know, who works within, you know, in the organization. So you will find that the next generation generation Z, generation Z, they're looking, they're looking at your website to see if they're, you know, how diverse it is.
00:31:58
Speaker
So that's, that's number one. And number two, I always say to senior leaders, you know, you really need to know your why and your what. Okay, so your what is, what do you want to achieve? Okay. And your why is, why are you doing this? Why do you, you know, why do you want an inclusive culture where everyone can feel their true authentic selves? Is this just a tick box exercise? Are you just doing it because everyone else is doing it?
00:32:28
Speaker
Or are you doing it because you really want meaningful change? So your why and your what is really, really important. Okay. And then it's all about taking that organisation on the journey. I remember last year I had an organisation say to me, oh, gee, great.
00:32:45
Speaker
I really want you to teach us how to have diversity conversations. And I was like, I don't have two A4 sheets of paper with a few pointers on there. These are the things you've got to say. Point one, say this point. I don't. I've got to take you on that journey. That whole education journey really is important. I still have organisations not knowing what microaggressions are.
00:33:09
Speaker
I still have organizations being really difficult talking about privilege. So when we look at privilege, you know, the different types of privilege out there, you know, including white privilege. So still having that conversation is really difficult. Talking about bias, I think in the States you call it blind spots. So these, you know, when we talk about going in on a journey, this is a journey we have to go to. That whole awareness and education is key, right? That everybody within the organization has to go on.
00:33:36
Speaker
before we start looking at creating an inclusive culture? No, that is interesting, right? When you think about what's inside an organization, one of the things, too, you mentioned this a little bit, is that you have to open the space to where
00:34:00
Speaker
The conversations just have to be had. Just like you said, you don't have A4 that you can write down in talking points. But it starts with, just go talk, go have the conversation. I think that a lot of times there's just so much timidness in having the conversation. I don't want to say the wrong thing. And I try to tell folks too, and it's like, I try to tell folks like,
00:34:20
Speaker
Someone knows when you're coming to them and being genuine about a situation. And if you're coming into the situation genuinely looking to learn, I find it hard that people would put it against you that you don't know or you're saying something wrong or this is not the case.
00:34:36
Speaker
But that timidness just to not even want to approach the situation, right, is something that as leaders within the organization, we got to break down that barrier. Is this a place where we can have the difficult conversations? And to be honest, it's probably not just about allyship. This is probably, if the conversation around allyship and just going to talk to other members in the organization to learn about them is tough, then it's probably tough to have broader conversations in the organization around performance.
00:35:04
Speaker
and all the other, the gamut of stuff that's happening, right? And so you just need to be able to take the first step and have the conversation and approach it from a genuine perspective that you're looking to learn, right? And that's the part where it's like,
00:35:19
Speaker
Look, we can't give you that the ABCs, right? One, two, threes of doing this, but as a leader, you can make it so that the conversations are frequently discussed by leadership, right? And they're beginning to be in the example, they're being the examples in the organization of these are the type of conversations that we need to have. And I think that's needed so much more in the formal and informal spaces within the organization.
00:35:45
Speaker
Exactly. And I think that's a difficulty for a lot of people. I have, you know, a lot of senior leaders say to me, Cheaker, I'm scared. And I say, what are you scared of? And they say, you know, I don't want to say the wrong thing. And this is another British term, they say, I don't put my foot in it. That means saying the wrong thing. But you have to be intentional about what you want to achieve. And that's why identifying your why and your what really is important. It really, really is important.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yep. And your why has to be meaningful. Let me just say that when we have the why, it's not just, I want to do the right thing. We want to do like, it has to have something that Simon Sinek writes about it, right? It touches the heart, right? It's a real thoughtful, like in order for our organization to succeed.
00:36:30
Speaker
in order for us to really exemplify and be a leader in this space, not only from a product sales perspective, but also culturally, this is what we need to be able to do. And so it really has to be very clear and very concise so that people can grab hold of it and run with it. And so when we think about the leaders within the organizations, right? And we think about what's happening within the organizations for
00:37:00
Speaker
individuals in the space that are really trying to make an impact, right? And they're trying to be active allies and they're trying to move this forward. What resources would you give them?
00:37:14
Speaker
You know, I know you have the book club, right? And I want to touch on that, but what resources would you give them to where you're, that you've seen in your career that have just been phenomenal, right? And great pieces of information that people can use to, you know, Hey, we get off of this podcast. You know, I want to learn more right now. Where would you direct them to? Oh my gosh. That's so much.
00:37:40
Speaker
Okay. And I have got a list of books and I tend to whittle it down to your top five books and I will tell you about them. I feel that everybody who is intentional about being an active ally should read. Okay. I do get people say to me, look, cheaper, I'm not a reader, but you know something, you've got to make that commitment.
00:38:01
Speaker
there's Audible. Audible is phenomenal. So if you don't want to sit down with an open book, you can listen to it while you're walking the dog or you're at the gym or something. So really, those books are really, really important. Okay, so I've got a list of books. I've also got a list of podcasts as well, and I can definitely send them to you. Importantly, and I think I've told you this before, I do something called the 30 Day Allyship Challenge, right?
00:38:28
Speaker
And the reason why I do it, it really is to kickstart your journey, your allyship journey, okay? So it's not the case of, oh, I'll do it for 30 days and then I've got to stop. It's just to kickstart that journey. Because I have a lot of people say to me, oh, Chica, I don't know where to start. A lot of people are really, really overwhelmed. So for 30 days, I take you through a program, right? So you may have to attend
00:38:53
Speaker
some workshops, a list of books that you can read, a list of podcasts to listen to, you have to write a journal, but every day, it's something to kick-start your allyship journey. And the whole idea that at the end of it, so after 30 days, you should be able to continue that journey by yourself.
00:39:17
Speaker
And I find that really, really helpful. The next 30-day allyship challenge starts on the 1st of February, and it goes on until the 2nd of March. So if there's anybody who's interested, I've got the link where you can join up. So we've got that. As I mentioned, I've got a number of books. And let me know if you want me to give you the titles of the book that we can get people reading.
00:39:46
Speaker
Yeah, just like what's one or two books that, you know, we're going to put the link to the challenge out. And so everyone, you know, please go in and sign up at the link for the 30 day Allyship challenge. But what are one or two books, right? Even now that people can just start to ground themselves and keep going and try to dig deeper.
00:40:05
Speaker
Definitely. So I try and make sure I have a good mix of both American and British authors. I think it really, really is important. So in terms of an American book, which is absolutely phenomenal, and you may know of this author, it's Ibram X. Kendi, how to be an anti-racist.
00:40:25
Speaker
really awesome book. Okay. And I know it was a New York Times bestseller. That's really, it's quite a heavy book to read. So maybe get it on Audible. But it's a fantastic book. So that's, that's an American book, a really great book by a black British author. It's a book called Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race.
00:40:51
Speaker
And that's by Renny Edo Lodge. And this is a fantastic book. And this was one of this is a Sunday. This is a Sunday Times bestseller. And again, this is another book I say, you know, you have to read really important. And then there's lots of historical books that I think is really important for us all to read. Okay. A lot of books about empire, right? And Great Britain's role in when it comes to
00:41:20
Speaker
You know, having these conversations, you know, the role that Great Britain played, right? Because I think especially in the United Kingdom, it's something that is not taught in schools. So books about empire really is important that we understand because believe it or not, Cedric, I still speak to people who've never heard about the transatlantic slave trade in the United Kingdom. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:46
Speaker
We got folks who denied Tulsa and Black Wall Street and Greenwood. It happened. Exactly, exactly. So there's a great book called The New Age of Empire, How Racism and Colonialism Still Rule the World. And this is another great book by a British author. So I think the key thing, and I know I'm plugging all these books, but you know something? We have got to put the work in.
00:42:13
Speaker
Obviously, I don't just have books on race, I have books on gender and sexual orientation, the list goes on. And again, I can send you, you know, a list of all those books. But unfortunately, you have to put the work in. And I say unfortunately, because I have a lot of people say, secret, I don't have time. But you've got to put the work in.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's like anything else, right? You know, and the fact that, that you mentioned before, this is a lifelong journey, right? Look, you don't have to run through the book in one week, right? Take your time and go through it. It's long, but you got a little time. Totally. And that's the key thing. Take your time.
00:42:50
Speaker
And I think the key thing is try and mix up books that you read. So what I try and do, I don't try and read at night because some of these books are very, very heavy and you're going to go to sleep and sometimes it just plays in your mind. So maybe read it at a time when you can go for a walk and when you go to the gym, you know, and try and mix it with other books that are not so intense as well. So looking after your mental health, you know, your mental wellbeing is really important as an ally, as an active ally.
00:43:19
Speaker
No, this is awesome. This is awesome. A lot of great information that's been shared. Hopefully everyone has been writing, taking notes and we'll put the link to the 30 day challenge as well as to the website so that people can go check you out and be able to learn more about everything that you're doing. And so, you know, as we're coming to the end here to cap off the discussion, right? What kind of last parting words or
00:43:43
Speaker
You know, what kind of advice or shout outs would you give? And then where can people find you if they're looking to just, you know, pick your brain more, work with you, dive deeper into these conversations. Yeah. Do you know what I would say? I'll say don't feel afraid. Okay.
Encouragement for Active Allyship
00:44:00
Speaker
Um, because I, you know, a lot of people are just scared. We need more allies. We need more active allies and we need more people like, you know, our listeners, you know, so don't feel afraid.
00:44:13
Speaker
In terms of where to find me, I'm really active on LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn. It's Cheek-a-ray-ee-bok-way and I'm sure you're going to put the spelling of my name out there. Find me. I'm an open book, I'll definitely say reach out to me.
00:44:34
Speaker
you know, let's have a zoom call or something, you know, I'm an open book, I love having these conversations. So I create these safe spaces, these safe and brave spaces to have these conversations. But I'll definitely say, don't feel afraid, we need more people like you. And you know, something change is definitely happening.
00:44:50
Speaker
That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, look, everybody, it's been a wonderful conversation. You know, just thank you, everybody, for listening, for joining us for another episode of the 3D Podcast. Look, you've been listening to Cedric as well as Chica Ray Bocquay, founder of Inclusive and Allyship. Have a great one.
00:45:10
Speaker
Awesome, well that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on another episode of the 3D Podcast. If you would like to connect on social media, follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook at Cedric and Powers. And if you have any questions you'd like me to read or answer on the show, or just want to know more about my thoughts around diversity and inclusion, entrepreneurship, or just overall business, you can text me. Yes, I said text me at 770-285-0404.
00:45:39
Speaker
You'll receive content straight to your phone on a regular basis and you can message back and forth. Not a bot or an assistant. All responses come directly from me. But look, this has been a great episode. Until next week, this has been Cedric Chambers and you've been listening to the 3D Podcast. We out.