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D&I Leadership Development w/ Heather Holland
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This week, for episode 21 of “The 3D Podcast” me, Cedric Chambers sits down with a diversity leader, Heather Holland. During this interview, Heather shared her thoughts about D&I Leadership Development This is a great episode packed with a ton of gems, so get your notepads ready as we dive deep and “Discuss the Dimensions of Diversity”.
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Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
you
Introduction to the 3D Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, I'm Cedric Chambers, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the 3D Podcast, a masterclass where we share with you everything you need to know about how to transform diversity and inclusion in your organization as well as in your community. We're on a mission to amplify the voices of leaders that are making an impact in the world today so that we can have a better tomorrow.
00:00:34
Speaker
Our goal every episode is to keep it simple, honest, and transparent with you by uncovering the truths in diversity and inclusion with the hope of creating behavioral change all while presenting it from a unique perspective. So look, if you're ready, get your notepad out, pour you a drink, and let's dive deep as we discuss the dimensions of diversity.
00:01:03
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 3D Podcast, where we speak with real practitioners that are making real change in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space.
Meet Heather Hollan
00:01:11
Speaker
I'm excited for our show today as we are speaking to Heather Hollan, an innovative global human resources and business consultant. Heather founded and operates Hollan Energy Consulting under the guiding principle, give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. But if you teach a man a fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
00:01:28
Speaker
Heather consults with corporations and business owner, implementing the firm's mission to help businesses solve their most complex people and HR matters. She's a trusted advisor with over 15 years of experience delivering diverse people, organizational and business solutions by strategically partnering to create healthy workplace cultures where individuals, teams and organizations can prosper and flourish. Look, so without further ado, I'm excited. I hope you're excited.
00:01:55
Speaker
Let's hop into this discussion with Heather Holland. So Heather, how are you doing today? I'm doing pretty good. How about you, Cedric? Oh, I'm blessed and highly favored. I can't complain.
00:02:06
Speaker
I'm excited to have this discussion today. And so, you know, so that our audience can just get some foundation information, get to know a little bit more about you. Can you share just a little bit about your background, kind of how you got into the DNI space, kind of your career journey? And I would love if you, as you're going through that background, your background, if you could just share a few points and lessons learned as you matriculate through
Diversity Journey Beginnings
00:02:27
Speaker
your career.
00:02:27
Speaker
Oh my gosh, absolutely. And first, thank you for having me. I am happy to be here. One of the things that I love doing is kind of sharing knowledge and wisdom and just sharing the benefits of what I've learned. I feel like I've been in some unique spaces, more of which I'll share in a sec. So my name is Heather Holland. I am the founder, the chief diversity consultant and global diversity and inclusion and HR leader with Holland Energy Consulting.
00:02:56
Speaker
And prior to starting my consulting firm, actually, I worked in corporate America. I have a master's in human resources and labor relations. So that's what got me in that space of DNI. And early in my career, I started out in manufacturing. So specifically steel, like steel manufacturing, foundries, hot, dusty, dirty environments. And a lot of times the only diversity you see there is on the plant floor.
00:03:22
Speaker
And then I moved into transportation, a manufacturer that made parts for the railroad industry, did a little spent at a Job Corps facility, which is like a youth education industry, youth employment and training. And then I moved into energy. So energy, don't think about your local utility. That's a separate field of energy. So energy, natural gas and oil pipelines, power generation, some renewables around wind. And one thing when it comes to diversity and energy,
00:03:51
Speaker
energy is probably, if not the diverse, is one of the least diverse industries. It is less diverse than tech. So laying out those industries in a path where I've been, I've always been one of fill in the blank.
00:04:06
Speaker
only woman, only black woman,
Transition to Consulting
00:04:08
Speaker
youngest, et cetera. And so in manufacturing where my interest started in diversity inclusion was just, I wanted to see more, more diversity. I wanted to see more black people. I wanted to see, you know, less of that sort of class system and on a plant floor and moving from the plant floor up into leadership ranks. So my interest was because it was personal because sometimes because it was asked to say, how do we,
00:04:33
Speaker
changed this. Sometimes, a lot of times, I just saw a need and took the bull by the horns. And so, I'm kind of jumping back to my career. So, more recently, I probably spent the last 12 or so years in energy and kind of some organizational structural changes came about. I was laid off and then I decided to start my own consulting firm. And so, what
00:04:56
Speaker
wasn't something that I always wanted to do, but it was a time of opportunity because I had gained so much experience and started a diversity and inclusion program in energy of my former employer, which was TC Energy. I figured I'd capitalize on why not do it now, because if you don't sort of branch out on your own, you'll never know.
00:05:19
Speaker
you can always go back and forth. That consulting, how energy has leveraged my industry experience in energy, but also playing with the intellectual capital that we expand. It takes to work in diversity and inclusion, or being from a diverse background in a corporate environment. It all takes some level of energy. That's where
00:05:42
Speaker
kind of where my career trajectory has sort of brought me and taken me to those places so that I think the formal as well as the informal experiences and just also wanting and meeting and seeing a change that needs to take place, diversity and inclusion has always become or has become a very strong interest and passion.
00:06:05
Speaker
No, that's awesome. That's awesome. So I do have a question on your background. And so you spoke a little bit about the energy industry and you said that it's more least averse than tech. And so my question is, why do you think that's the case?
Diversity in the Energy Sector
00:06:20
Speaker
Well, that is a great question. That is a
00:06:23
Speaker
I think one question that is still being answered, but I think a lot of it, I think one thing that those industries have in common when you think about manufacturing energy, it is a something, a commodity that everyone needs, US and globally, and that we
00:06:39
Speaker
that may not always be at the forefront. Energy is different from a utility. You know who your utility provider is because you pay your life fee every month. But how does your utility get the energy to you? Most people have no idea. So those are companies, they're not B2B. I mean, they're not B2C where you're selling to a consumer, business selling to a consumer. It's B2B where they're selling to other businesses. So you may have heard of a shell, but who is the pipeline company that supplies shell, that gas of oil?
00:07:09
Speaker
the average person has never heard of them. And it's an industry similar to manufacturing that is very long-standing, industrial, close to nature. So a lot of times, too, especially when I first got involved in energy, a lot of people came to the industry by word of mouth because their father worked, or their grandfather worked on an all-shore oil rig. Another reason why it may not be so diverse
00:07:35
Speaker
a lot of ... I mean, if you're not in the industry, you don't know about it. When I first got into energy, I didn't know anything about it, and I think the industry has to do a better job of telling its story. Tech is kind of cool when you're looking at new grads, and you hear a lot about tech. It's something we use, and you think about energy or oil or even gas. It's kind of this unknown. It may
00:07:59
Speaker
not be seen as fun or sexy or clean, but there are good paying jobs, the industry pays well, there's an opportunity for change, and actually tech and energy can, there's lots of crossover that can occur, is occurring.
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I was like, well, sometimes we use the word tech and I get what we mean by internet. But I mean, so many industrial companies, right? Use technology and what they do. And it's so much advanced technology in the space to where we just don't know about it.
00:08:32
Speaker
We just don't know what's going on, what's happening. Like you said, being able to share the story, the industry, and what's going on, what's happening to get people interested is something that, from an energy perspective, I know is probably definitely needed versus other industries in the space. Today, we're talking about diversity and inclusion. We're talking about leadership and a lot around personal development for DNI leaders.
00:08:54
Speaker
And so as we're going through and we're thinking about this, where I would like to kind of start is as you've navigated through your career, not only in corporate, but then also on the consulting side, you know, you've had a chance to see a lot of different leaders, some that were, you know, very, very successful, some that weren't.
Traits of Successful Leaders
00:09:12
Speaker
And so my question is, when going through and looking at those leaders and looking at some of those traits, what do you see as like those key traits that make leaders successful within those organizations?
00:09:25
Speaker
I'm glad you asked that question because leadership is key and you may be, and a lot of people are chosen to sort of take on a leadership role, force them to a leadership role, but with what training? And typically you're identified as a leader because of your technical or your functional expertise. So you may be a great engineer. That doesn't mean you'll be a great manager or so. How exactly?
00:09:51
Speaker
It can be tough. I mean, I've been a leader myself and having someone being one who coaches leaders is not always easy being a leader yourself. So I think a couple of the sort of cheat traits, being a leader, learning how to make that transition and getting the development you need if it's not built into your sort of onboarding or training program,
00:10:16
Speaker
don't be afraid to ask for the help that you need, whether internally or externally, and maybe supplement both of them. Because what are some, that leadership experience, leadership criteria, and so make sure you know what it takes to be a good leader. And for within your organization, what does the organization value? How do they identify a leader? How do they identify a good leader? What are those competencies and leadership skills? So know that, and that will help you determine
00:10:44
Speaker
where do you start and what areas of help do you need to become a better leader? I think a second quality trait is emotional intelligence. I may not be an engineer by trade, but that doesn't mean that I can't lead engineers because realizing that I'm stepping out of the technical role and taking on a functional
00:11:06
Speaker
able to let go of that piece and being able to, when I say emotional intelligence, but being able to kind of be curious, dig beyond the surface and be able to look at your team and development and just being, you know, I guess I've characterized that sort of interpersonal intuitiveness.
00:11:24
Speaker
I think another trait is a good leader is not afraid to ask for help and development and when you And say I don't know when I don't know because no one knows everything even if you come from within that same function and I think probably a fourth trait and then I'll stop there is a leader who continues or strives for continuous growth and wants to grow and
00:11:47
Speaker
you know, kind of that may be the breadth of the kind of width and length because it's not always fun being a leader. So, and probably one other thing, I figure how do you add in some fun to it too? Yeah. No, that's great. And I think that, you know, I love the piece around emotional intelligence because a lot of times that's a big piece that's missing when it comes to leaders being able to be effective, right? Being able to make sure that they're connecting with their teams, making sure that they're able to
00:12:16
Speaker
understand themselves and understand how they're showing up in the situation in which they're showing up is a key piece to being able to not only impact the team, but then also lead the organization. I know it's another piece to that. There's a lot around IQ, there's a lot around EQ, but there's one piece of this that I really, really love that doesn't get spoken about a lot is A2.
00:12:42
Speaker
which is your adaptability quotient and so that piece to me is something that you know if you're able to adapt in a role whether that be to each individual team whether that be to the company that you're going into however they may be being able to adapt i think is one of the
00:12:59
Speaker
most critical traits that a leader needs to develop if they look to be successful moving forward, knowing that we're going to be in situations, environments that are going to be different and we need to know how to adapt our skill sets in order to be successful in no different situations.
00:13:15
Speaker
I agree with you. Adaptability is absolutely critical. I think adaptability also makes you more valuable or more marketable. You happen to leave the company or even within the company.
00:13:31
Speaker
Mm, yep, it does, it does. And so let's do this. So to dig into that piece around the DNI leaders,
Role of D&I Leaders
00:13:39
Speaker
right? And so I want to, you know, we're talking about the position and kind of the work that they do, but I want to make sure that we define this so that we understand as we move forward. From your perspective, one, kind of what is the work of diversity and inclusion? Meaning, you know, when a new DNI leader comes into an organization,
00:13:59
Speaker
What should they be focusing on as they enter into that new environment and new company so they can get off on the right foot and really make impact from day one. That is a great question. A loaded question but a good question.
00:14:15
Speaker
We'll come back to the work, but I start with a DNI leader, and you'll see different job titles, director of diversity, head of diversity, chief diversity officer. They're all leaders, and it might vary a little bit based on the level, but let's say in general, let's talk about that director level because I think that's where, in terms of the market, that's where a lot of the roles have been lately at the director level.
00:14:40
Speaker
So some of those, we'll talk about that, and that could be a director with or without a team. It could be an individual contributor like the director. So that means it's just you, leading, figuring out what to do for this organization from a DNI perspective. So that's what the DNI leader, what is the work? What does that look like when you start? Some of your first clues on what the company thinks the work is.
00:15:06
Speaker
The first clues are come up from the job description. What is, and part of that figuring that out and kind of marrying the two, what is the work that's been identified based on the job description compared to when you get the job? What's the reality of the work that's actually involved?
00:15:23
Speaker
and figuring out the delta between the two, if there is a delta. But I'd say in general, it's a very high level. A lot of times that work is, and we'll talk from the perspective in it, because just based on the market, there's been a lot of new roles. So coming from the perspective, let's say you, it's the first time the company's had a D&I leader, you've been, congratulations, you've been selected. So what is some of that work looks like? Or what might some of that work include?
00:15:51
Speaker
a lot of times the first place might be is the coming up with the dni strategy and there is no one size fits all approach and you want to make sure that that strategy aligns with the overall business strategy so looking even function where does that dni role report to does it sit with an HR.
00:16:08
Speaker
Does it report to a VP or CHRO? Does it report to the CEO? Does it report to some other part of the business? That will give you an indication of the value that's been placed on the role, how far down in the organization it sits in terms of visibility, approval, what is it going to take to get that strategy approved? How many people do you have to sell or convince even though the role was posted and they said they wanted it?
00:16:36
Speaker
That's part of figuring out what the reality of it is. And so, in there, I covered, I talked about the strategy, but some of the other work is just that, which may not always be covered in the job description. It's figuring out what's the reality of the nature or the state of the company's DNI journey and their evolution, their point of view on diversity and inclusion. What's the organizational culture? What's the real appetite?
00:17:06
Speaker
versus proactive, and what is it going to take, because you're definitely going to have your own ideas, and what is it going to take to get a strategy implemented? In order to even come up with a strategy, what information do you need? If you want to gather information, is there an existing strategy? Is there data? What's the current business strategy? Those are some examples of what the work may look like.
00:17:31
Speaker
Can it be done with a one-person team? Yes, it can be, but it is really tough. So to be able to meet expectations or match expectations or set realistic expectations because I don't think you necessarily have to match the company's expectations because it's a negotiation along the way. You're one person and you didn't get here overnight, you can't change the situation overnight. So how do you also
00:18:00
Speaker
I think part of that work going in, someone once told me that when I first started my consulting firm, as a business owner, as soon as you start a business, you should have your exit strategy.
Career Advice for D&I Professionals
00:18:14
Speaker
But I take that approach because I totally get it because as soon as you step into a role, you should also be working on and planning what is that next move, basically what's your exit strategy, whether that's a promotion or something else. And part of that work, I think, that needs to occur that a lot of people forget to do is that work for yourself.
00:18:35
Speaker
How do I sort of make this role work to my advantage? Is it something that I want to use as a stepping stone for promotion? Do I want more visibility? Whatever the reason or reasons are, how do you incorporate that into your strategy?
00:18:50
Speaker
Oh, you're kind of willing to my next question, but I love it. So, no worries. So, because we're talking about the DNI professional today. And I really want to use this as, you know, there's a lot of people that's in these roles that are, you know, new to the space. This may be their first role in DNI. And, you know, they're just navigating based off of what they know. And they're kind of taking, you know, a lot of the different things that come at them the best way they can. And so I want to make sure that, you know, from a career perspective that
00:19:19
Speaker
we're developing and we're understanding what does that mean for us individually in this space because for some you know this may be kind of their chosen route you know for others right it may not be their chosen route but they want to be in long term I would say and so when coming into a role whether this is your first whether you want to be in a long term or you want to be in a short term
00:19:41
Speaker
How should dni professionals or what should they do to set themselves up so that they don't get pigeonhole to where now they're only getting sought after for dni professional roles. I think that's a great question because it is a.
00:19:57
Speaker
maybe sometimes a little unspoken nuance that comes with the D&I role that you may have HR professionals who sort of step away from HR. The perception is you step away from HR and you take in a D&I role and you want to go back, but sort of you're only seen as a D&I person and what the sort of
00:20:19
Speaker
path has been to this point with corporate America, which could change but may not, is that a lot of times, you know, Z&I may be hot, it's the flavor of the month, it's super hot now. But when there's organization changes occur, or maybe they don't agree with the path you're going, and we're changing directions, a lot of times, you could potentially be one of the first people sort of repurposed or exited out the organization.
00:20:45
Speaker
Even if you have another skill what whether or not that you is taking so i think no some things that a weather you're new or season the and i professional that you can do to always keep yourself marketable with weather d and i not especially within d and i is to.
00:21:04
Speaker
As a current D&I leader, make that role work for you. Have in mind that entrepreneur mindset. Where do you want to take your career and your career development and make sure you work in those opportunities? Definitely network internally and externally.
00:21:22
Speaker
I think that was probably one of my lessons learned when I had one of my D&I roles, because it had much more of an external focus, which took me out of the company more than I had been. So I learned to network very well externally, and along the way, forgot to network just as well internally.
00:21:41
Speaker
So I think that left me without some potential advocates. So I think sharing that lesson learned, that's something that D&I professionals can do. Make sure you're networking both internally and externally so that you create advocates for yourself internally, but also some contacts and networks for yourself externally. So if you do find yourself wanting or needing another role, you have a good place to start.
00:22:07
Speaker
Yeah. No, I like it. I like it. No, no, I was just going to say it's almost a lot of these tools and how you look at yourself. And I think that that's an important piece as well, because if you come in and you look at yourself as the DNI leader, then you're going to think in that trajectory, right? And people are going to see you as that way versus if you look at yourself and you kind of operate as if no, I'm a business leader.
00:22:36
Speaker
that works in diversity and inclusion. So that you understand and so that others understand that you have that broader skill set, right? So that when that time and that transition does come, it's not like, oh, that's the DNI person coming into this role. Like, no, that's a leader that's getting ready to transition into a new function or a new role in their career. Yeah, one little nuance that I would agree with you that it's about you and how you think and where you want to go so that even if
00:23:05
Speaker
You do all that and you're still viewed as a DNI leader. You're still in control and you sort of maximize your skills and exercise on your plan on where you want to go. So what if they don't see you as a business leader?
00:23:18
Speaker
You've networked, you've sort of broadened your horizons and making that opportunity. And along the way, gain other skill sets that are transferable. So how do you take the skills that you've gained and transfer them to other parts? So, because maybe you've come there sometimes in a law firm or other situations, someone may have a legal background. That JD doesn't go away because you've stepped into a DNI role.
00:23:45
Speaker
I firmly believe it just adds to your, it just makes you that much more valuable and adds to your repertoire of skills. So it really comes to how do you want to use your repertoire of skills, no matter how someone else sees you.
00:24:00
Speaker
No, I love it. I love it. I love it. So let me ask you. So as they're going into these roles, right? They're thinking about kind of their development, you know, getting the exit strategy or understanding what they want to do in their career and kind of, you know, where is this role going to take them?
00:24:15
Speaker
DNI is top of mind for a lot of organizations. It's gotten a lot of publicity. And for the foreseeable future, we'll probably continue to get a lot of visibility, which means that as you're coming into those roles, all eyes are on you. Like, what are you going to do? Are you going to write this ship? What's going to happen? What's going to be the improvements? And that can be a lot of weight for one individual to take on, write with everyone looking at them.
Influencing as a D&I Leader
00:24:43
Speaker
Before you think about your next step in career, what you have to do ultimately is be successful at the job that you're in. And so for those leads to be successful in the role, what are some of the things that they can do, one, to gain influence quickly within the organizations, and then also make sure that they set the right expectations for the leadership team and the organization as far as the direction we're going to go?
00:25:09
Speaker
Yeah, so a couple of things to sort of win or gain some influence and impact and visibility pretty quickly is setting a strategy, but understanding what success looks like, asking what does success look like, ask multiple times, multiple people, multiple contexts, because success is going to look different to different people, but also share
00:25:35
Speaker
looks like in the as a DNI leader and work to come to some sort of agreement. Excuse me. And that's one way to gain that influence. Understand who the key players are within the organization and who are the key stakeholders you may need to gain approval from, influence who's accountable, and make sure you keep them involved, communicated to, engage early and often.
00:26:04
Speaker
and probably even more so the people who may not be on, try to understand where there may not be on board. It doesn't mean you need to agree, you may agree to disagree, but however, as a leader in the organization, here's your accountability. So make sure you sort of assign some accountability to the full leadership team. So I think those are some things that you can do to gain some influence and
00:26:29
Speaker
If nothing else, another lesson learned is not a time to be shy. Learn to toot your own horn to say here's the strategy, here's the work that was done, and here's what we've accomplished, but make sure you can carve out and identify what you specifically have done.
00:26:48
Speaker
in that role because you may or may not have advocates when you're not in the room. So you want to be able to articulate that and write it down so it lives beyond you just having to say, well, here's what I've done. And look for the easy wins and leverage those easy wins in a longer way. Figure out where you can get some champions to come along with you. So you're building your sort of squad as you go. Yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yeah, I'm curious in the work that you do as you see leaders navigate through this space, especially in the DNI and you see them kind of go down this path. What are some of those, I guess, challenges or some of those pitfalls that you've seen DNI leaders face so that those are listening to this podcast can make sure that they're aware of some of those challenges and avoid them as at all possible opportunities.
Managing Emotional Challenges
00:27:41
Speaker
You know, I think a couple, and I think that's one of the interesting things, a lot of it has, people think it's what so much has to do with other people and so much of it has to do with yourself and how you go about. So a couple pitfalls, people have a strong interest and a strong passion. That strong interest and strong passion only takes you so far. Only so far.
00:28:08
Speaker
or an analogy comes to my mind, but I couldn't think of it when they say love is not everything in a relationship, passion is not everything when it comes to D&I. So what's your mode to decompress for self-care? Because it is certainly, you know, it takes a lot. It takes a toll on you. Are you in an organization or a culture where you're pushing a rock up the hill? And there may be some level of that
00:28:34
Speaker
across all DNI roles. So how do you sort of recalibrate? Especially if you're one and it's like me wearing some other prior experiences, I was the only one in the environment and
00:28:47
Speaker
in charge of D&I. So no, I didn't want to go out to dinner. No, I need to go listen to some R&B. I needed to do something that recharged me to sort of just have a moment. So I think that's something that D&I leaders can do is whatever it is to recharge you, make sure you don't forget to recharge your battery both personally and professionally. And speak up. Sometimes it's tough.
00:29:14
Speaker
When you're in the room and the subject matter is uncomfortable and people don't want to talk about race, and sometimes you may have to push the issue. So bring in other resources or professionals in the industry and share, you know what?
00:29:30
Speaker
Another good one is share storytelling and personal examples, whether they be that of you or your network, because that is the best first-hand account to be able to share your perspective and get a point across with others who can't even fully understand because that's not the environment they've been in or been exposed to. Those are a couple of key areas to figure it out.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah, I guess the emotional piece once is the part that that struck a chord with me. Because in a lot of cases, you're taking and absorbing the emotions of others. Because everyone has a different... Yeah, the energy. Everybody has a different feel about the topic.
00:30:18
Speaker
you know, whether it's, you know, aggressive or, you know, people that are really, you know, think that, hey, this is not me or this is not, you know, the world that we live in, all these different things can come to mind. And as that leader, you're listening and absorbing it. And then if you're not careful, you can start to take that with you in different spaces, in different places to where, like you said, that negative energy is something to where passion
00:30:44
Speaker
is going to get clouded by that impact, beat down by that negative energy to where you got to have a bigger cost, right? You got to have a bigger, what is in this for me? And think about the ultimate goal, like what's the impact that I'm trying to make? And I think that's the piece to where we have to get a little bit of understanding of where have we come up until this point and where are we going?
00:31:07
Speaker
And then understanding for my role, what impact am I trying to make? Knowing that I'm only going to be here for a short amount of time, but I want to leave the situation better than what it is that I received when I first started. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just your emotions and energy, it's other people too. So even those that sort of staunch critic, trying to understand where they're coming from, even if you know, you don't agree and figuring out, you know, at what point do you sort of say,
00:31:37
Speaker
Okay, we've understood, we've heard each other, but you have a job to do the strategy and you just move forward because you're never going to get 100% of the people on board. I go with the 80-20 rule. If you have 80% of people, because it is, in most cases, a change. So from a change management perspective, you have 80% of the people on board,
00:31:58
Speaker
Keep going and you may not start with 80% So work with the amount you have and keep going and work to sort of increase that number and again champions along the way
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so look, you know, kind of a scenario question here. So, you know, I'm a DNI leader, you know, I'm continuing, you know, down this path, you know, I feel myself kind of, you know, beating up against a lot of different walls. And I'm thinking to myself, it may or may not be time for me to leave a transition. And so for professionals in this space, what are some of those signs that it may be time for them to want either transition out of the company or transition out of this role so
Time for Career Transition?
00:32:37
Speaker
that
00:32:37
Speaker
they don't get to a point to where there's no return. Right. That is a good question. I think it's it varies for each person, but I do think there are a couple sort of global indicators and they probably actually apply even outside of DNI, you know, a lot. How do you feel about what you're doing or how you made to feel? How is your work perceived?
00:33:01
Speaker
Is it like, oh, good job, even if it's like, OK, good job. Overall, I didn't agree with this point. Or is the conversation more about, well, we really need to talk. We're not we've had a discussion and we're not all on board. It's like, OK, this is happening more and more. And hopefully in that space, you can still be curious without being defensive.
00:33:23
Speaker
but also being able to realize when you need to stand up for yourself to say, no, here's what we agreed upon. Here's the direction that we're going. Now, you know, I've kind of done what I needed to do. You know, if you feel like that you're being sort of singled out or picked on or your work is being devalued, that those might be signs that it may be time to, you know, take out the paper and start looking at that exit strategy and figure out what that exit strategy is.
00:33:50
Speaker
in talking about gaining network or internal networking, ask for feedback along the way, hopefully, in terms of the work you're doing and what's the sort of feedback to the work you're doing and how you're perceived. And you can probably use that as a leading indicator, which hopefully would lead you wondering less about, uh-oh, and you may be able to sort of, because you want to be at the point where you can anticipate
00:34:16
Speaker
that I know I need to change or you can anticipate the reaction that, yeah, they may not be down for this. And, you know, it may be time to make a move before, let me beat them for the punch. So being able to, and exercising that emotional intelligence to be able to read the environment.
00:34:33
Speaker
And sometimes it may not necessarily always be something internally. I am a proponent of always sort of keeping up the market. You may not be looking right now, but if you've updated your LinkedIn profile, someone likes your experience and wants to chat, what's the harm in chatting? Have the conversation. Because you also, that helps you better understand what your value is in the market. It's just in terms of pay, benefits, work quality as well.
00:35:03
Speaker
No, so I think those are a couple of things to be on the lookout for if you're wondering or questioning like When is it time to go or is it time to go? Yep, and I'll tell you this as a owner of a recruitment firm. What's the home listening? I played right into that. There's no
00:35:27
Speaker
I will say though, being on the opposite end and you're talking with recruiters, it certainly helps if you give me a little bit of information about the role and even post a job description, tell me what the pay is. The market is right now, like we talked about, the market is hot for D&I professionals. So it's hard to talk to a recruiter and interview while you're working a full-time job. Yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
It is, it is. And you mentioned pay. Look, this is something to where, look, the work that you're going to be doing is not easy. It's not going to happen overnight. And so don't lowball yourself. Look, make sure that you are compensated equitably in all these situations, right? Because that's something to where it's great to take the job. You're excited. The passion is there. But look, we got to talk money. We got to find out where the money resides in this situation.
00:36:21
Speaker
And that's where, Sandra, you and your peers and colleagues come in for those D&I professionals. I mean, ask other D&I professionals.
00:36:32
Speaker
that you're close to if you can talk dollar for dollar, if you can talk a range even. The pay varies greatly across industry. When you're having those sort of casual conversations with our recruiters and search firms, do not be afraid to ask about the total compensation package based bonus and if there's any equity.
00:36:53
Speaker
Because the work you pay, the work that you do, the salary you make, probably still isn't going to feel like enough, but know about what the market is for your given geographic area. And it does vary by geography.
00:37:07
Speaker
No, I agree. I agree. And that's something that I try to do and my team tries to do every time is that, look, we're in it for the candidate and we're trying to make sure that you get the best possible at the end of the day. And so, you know, as we get closer right to the end and people are listening, we talked about quite a few topics. If, you know, those listening to the podcast could leave with two or three action items, you know, whether they be DNI professionals or just general leaders that can help them get their careers line so that moving forward, they're successful,
00:37:37
Speaker
What are two to three things that they can do after listening to this podcast to really go out and get them the right track?
Leadership Development Takeaways
00:37:45
Speaker
Two or three things people can do. I think one is, and I know some people like books, some people like podcasts. I'm personally not a big proponent of books. It's just a lot to read, but we've changed the way we absorb information.
00:38:01
Speaker
book and even if you read the cliff notes is your first 90 days or this I think it's called the first 90 days that the premise basically is in your first 90 days that you walk basically you spend your first couple weeks some people do it before they start their job but
00:38:17
Speaker
Have a plan for your first 90 days and actual plans that you if the company doesn't already have an onboarding plan for you or one that an onboarding plan or sort of training plan that you provide input to you develop your own plan and that's a leader you should have one anyway shirt basically your leadership plan what are you going to accomplish in the first 90 days.
00:38:38
Speaker
those are the most important days to hit the ground running. So whether you read the book, Google first 90 days, there's lots of different books and approaches to how you work through those first 90 days that I think are great. Another takeaway if you want to build your leadership
00:38:57
Speaker
competency and capability because one thing I think people may not realize is that the DNI space even in the last year has changed drastically. And so even as a DNI professional and I say quasi expert, I do not know everything. There are times often that I need to ask questions or I need further
00:39:18
Speaker
Education expertise so i go out and get that weather through organizations and associations when you develop partnerships that a lot of the partnerships and that the you know i'll use lgbtq as an example you know two or three years it was lgbt and then she was added then plus.
00:39:35
Speaker
What does that even mean? Working with QIA as an ally, what does the terminology mean? How has the terminology changed? Maybe even what are some trends? If you're either wanting to get into the DNI space or you're already there and you want to upskill, I think those are ways, another way is looking at those partnerships and organizations.
00:40:00
Speaker
first 90 days, partnership organizations and sort of upskilling or education and maybe one more thing that to sort of take away. Because D&I doesn't happen in a vacuum and we all are human, we have lives outside of this.
00:40:16
Speaker
So, I think another way to potentially even make yourself a niche is look at the intersection of DNI and whatever other area it is that's important to you. Is it finance or is it talent management or development? Because DNI has
00:40:34
Speaker
an implication in a space and every single thing we do, whether it's an industry or a function. I think that's where a space where you can carve out a niche for yourself. Also, learn more and probably one of the maybe the biggest actual thing you can do was one or two areas of interest and then look at those one or two areas of interest with the intersection or from a DNI lens.
00:41:00
Speaker
I love it, I love it. Hopefully everybody wrote that down if you didn't rewind it and write it down. We'll link the first 90 days in the show notes, so don't worry if you can't find it. We'll find it for you. No excuses. And so to cap off our discussion, I want to kind of change this a little bit here. What's been the biggest lesson you've learned in your career?
Biggest Career Lesson
00:41:22
Speaker
the biggest lesson overall that I've learned in my career. So we're talking the career, doesn't matter what, you know, kind of where you worked in that career. I always work and operate under the premise of I want to make myself a niche so that if the market goes up, market goes down, company lays off, expands, I always can find
00:41:45
Speaker
a job or find the job that I want because when I say make myself a niche, how have I sort of expanded? So, yeah, you may be in HR, so have you played in different spaces of HR? Worked in environments nobody else wanted to do. One of the reasons that I was originally attracted to manufacturing was one, it paid well.
00:42:02
Speaker
two it was it's an environment you know i'm not a big fan of kind of working in the corporate office environment is very kind of boring and regiment that main faction are like. We just need some help is all hands on deck you get experience a lot quicker without the sort of red tape you get pretty immediate feedback so you know if you're doing well or not well.
00:42:23
Speaker
So, you know, look for those sort of unique or unusual spaces where there's not a lot of you there, whether it's not a lot of you because of your gender, your race, your experience, your age, and work, spend some time in those spaces, in those parts of the company. And I think that's the biggest lesson I have learned, which has served me well and certainly got me to this point and sort of operating principle that I still practice to this day.
00:42:50
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome. I love it. I love it. Well, look, this has been an amazing conversation. Before we go, do you have any parting words, any shout outs, and then where can people find and connect with you if they want to kind of learn more and go deeper in the discussion with you?
00:43:04
Speaker
Oh, good. So, parting words, I guess, well, first and foremost, thank you for having me. It's been a joy. I always love talking DNI, but more importantly, I guess, probably, and as it relates to parting words, don't be afraid to be the master of your own career and your own development. If nothing else, those are my greatest parting words, because a lot of times, you know, those diverse candidates, and in particular, Black candidates,
00:43:30
Speaker
we are the most undervalued, and undervalued in the market, and a lot of times we may undervalue ourselves. But we are, and especially I would say, kind of like the Gen Xers and millennials now, you have the skill sets that the companies need and want because those ahead of you are now beginning to retire. So you're more marketable than you know.
00:43:54
Speaker
you just need to learn your value. So I think those would be my parting words. And where people can find me is at my website at HollandEnergy.com or on LinkedIn via Holland Energy or Heather Holland as well. Awesome. Awesome. Well, that does it for us. Look, thank you everyone for joining us on another episode of 3D Podcast. I'm Cedric. You've been listening to Heather Holland, Global DNR leader for Holland Energy Consulting.
00:44:20
Speaker
Yes. See you later. Well, thank you, Cedric. Enjoy everyone. Thank you very much. Awesome. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on another episode of The 3D Podcast. If you would like to connect on social media, follow me on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook at Cedric and Powers. And if you have any questions you'd like me to read or answer on the show, or just want to know more about my thoughts around diversity and inclusion, entrepreneurship, or just overall business, you can text me. Yes. I said, text me.
00:44:50
Speaker
at 770-285-0404. You'll receive content straight to your phone on a regular basis, and you can message back and forth with me, not a bot or an assistant. All responses come directly from me. But look, this has been a great episode. Until next week, this has been Cedric Chambers, and you have been listening to the 3D Podcast. We out.